Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAboutCOM 0024.019 2012-2014 7'0`!� DENNIS "FRESH" ONISHl PHONE (808)961-8396 �''�� "'�- �I'''�� FAX- (808)961-8912 Council Member EMAIL donishirc%cahativaii.hi its District 3 - �r�oi•N'� HAWAII COUNTY COUNCIL 25 Aupuni Street, Hilo, Hawaii 96720 0C-) Go ZC MEMORANDUM { � J DATE: April 14, 2014 � sr rn TO: J Yoshimoto, Chair And Members of the Hawaii County Council k.r FROM: Dennis "Fresh" Onishi, Council Member SUBJECT: Minutes of the Real Property Tax Stakeholders Task Force meeting for February 6, 2014. Attached for review and discussion are the minutes of the Real Property Tax Stakeholders Task Force meeting that was held February 6, 2014, in Waimea. Please place this on the next available Committee agenda. DO•ps Att. Comm. No. ' q— Ref.To: PT Hawai`i Counth is an Equal Opportunity Provider and Employer Ref. Date ,APRI„ 4 MIA REAL PROPERTY TAX STAKEHOLDERS TASK FORCE MEETING MINUTES February 6, 2014 Office of Council Member Margaret Wille Kamuela, Hawaii CALL TO ORDER Co-Chairperson Dennis "Fresh" Onishi called the meeting to order at 10:00 a.m. ROLL CALL Present: Margaret Wille, County Council, Member Dennis "Fresh" Onishi, County Council, Member Robert Price, Member Stew Hussey, Member Al Inoue, Member Also Present: Elizabeth `Nina' Swain, Secretary/Recorder STATEMENTS FROM THE PUBLIC There were no statements from the public made. APPROVAL OF MINUTES Mr. Price moved to defer the minutes of January 23 to the next meeting scheduled for March 20th. Motion seconded by Mr. Hussey. A call for discussion was made. Motion passed by a vote of 5:0. NEW BUSINESS • Open Discussion on establishing the goals and timetable for the task force Mr. Onishi: So, just to give some background to it, it was for the committee to start deciding on what do we want to see in the coming months and how do we want to progress with our discussions and, do we want to like set categories like Ag, when do we want to see this finished by, and then Residential and all these different categories. It would be good if we can establish that today. That way to the Administration, the Finance Department, would know okay this is what is going to be coming forward Mr. Price: I got these two pieces of communication from Valerie Poindexter. They're not going to be addressed today then? Mr. Onishi: Where did you get that from? Mr. Price: I got this from Erin. Mr. Onishi: Today, on the agenda, we are only talking about the discussion of the goals and timetable for the Task Force. Mr. Price: Okay. So these will be on the agenda for the.... Mr. Onishi: Yes, for the next meeting. Just a reminder, for Sunshine Law purposes whatever is on the agenda we need to follow. Mr. Hussey: Clarification on that point. I understand that the County Charter allows for amendments to the agenda. I don't propose one but just for my own understanding, if the agenda which we get typically a day before the meeting, which isn't really time to interject any other things, or we can call if we have items we would want to put on. But if we see a need for change I understand that the Charter allows the agenda to be amended at the meeting by a vote. Is that true? Mr. Onishi: I would have to check on that. Ms. Wille: I would say that maybe we ought to make a focus on getting out the agenda within two weeks after our meeting. That way if someone has something, to contact the Chairman if there is something missing there. So we have it all ready before the seven day requirement. Mr. Onishi: You know, we had this discussion two meetings ago and it was kind of set on that the agenda would come out, as you had mentioned, two weeks prior as we need to have that seven days notice. So within that 14th day when it comes out, the agenda, until the 8th day you guys can make amendments to it. Mr. Hussey: Somebody told me that at the session itself, adjustments can be made and you're nodding your head like that is.... Ms. Wille: Let's check on that. Mr. Hussey: I'm just looking at the possibility that it's true. If it's not true then I don't want to.... Ms. Wille: We just don't want, if there was something missing or something slight we normally do it but we don't want to say somehow doing a report and say we discussed "x" at a meeting that the public didn't get notice of. So even if we have the power I think that we should probably avoid doing that right now. Mr. Hussey: Sure. Ms. Wille: Can I make a comment here today, just to generally getting our arms around where we're going on this. We do have this list that the recommendations from that last Ad Hoc Committee and we've sort of been following along with their priorities. That's sort of what we've been -2 - doing in terms of processes, just go down with what they put down as high and follow through. If it was something related to an item then maybe we'd pull it in so we're doing things more comprehensively. You know, I've been comfortable with that. We also talked about, at the last meeting, we had something from, a referral from Brenda Ford to this committee, and I think at the last meeting the one thing, I think with referrals we should look to see where they fit in terms of the items on here and fit those in and not do, okay we're going to do referrals. I don't want to do them out of context. The more, for me and particularly cause I'm not an expert in this area, the more I do things in terms of the bigger picture the better I feel I can comment rather than pull this category out of the bag and say okay how do we handle that. I'm not comfortable with it without looking at what is that compared to. Sort of how we do that. So I felt good with starting with the list that the other Council Members, including Bob, sort of looking at their, respecting what they put here and following their list that we've been doing. Except where we see something that maybe we should combine this and whatever seems common sense otherwise. The other thing is we are, we made a point and I think the point has been made repeatedly, that we'd like to really focus on agricultural issues and the public's made comments. We'd like to, when we get into sort of a big category, that if we're going to look at that, that we do focus on that area. Regardless if whether it's true or not, the sense that there are a lot of inequities that affect ag versus others in that area and appreciate that public perception that that's an area that needs to be addressed. Nancy also spoke up and said that that was, she felt, we ought to be in terms of big categories in starting, in looking at that. The other thing is that we need to be responsible to bring a quarterly report to the Council. Now, exactly at what point we are starting and here's our quarter and how we handle that. But I think that we need to think about that and realize that the public is 'let's get stuff done'. At the same, but get stuff done and again I don't want to do sort of one item here without sort of feeling here's what we're presenting as a package. So if we're not ready to do ag that we're not doing. Anyway, just so we do things in the most organized fashion possible. Mr. Onishi: Good that you brought up about that, about the report. What I was going to suggest to this committee is that, what I wanted to see or what we could do is that we could do a monthly report. So when we have our meeting, like say March 20th, at the next Council meeting or at the next Council Committee meeting on Finance, we could give them a report as to what happened. So that way they'll keep updated. Instead of waiting for the quarterly, we can give it to them every time For example, for like the Hawaii State Association of Counties, once we have the minutes that come to us, then I put that on the agenda for our next Council Committee meeting. So that way it doesn't build up. I think that way the public would be more informed about what's progressing within this Task Force. - 3 - Ms. Wille: And the Council Members. Mr. Onishi: And the Council Members, yes. Like the other day we had the discussion about this certain issue and then they were wondering what is the Task Force doing. So that's when it kind of brought up the questions. Ms. Wille: Sort of like is it going to be years before they hear back from us. Mr Onishi: Yes. Ms. Wille: Well, they say there are minutes. Mr. Onishi: Yes, cause minutes that we approve are public record so they could go and get that information but not everyone's going to do that. That's just a suggestion on what you were mentioning. That could be another issue so we could maybe discuss that one after we finish the timetable. Ms. Wille: Let me just make a couple more comments. I also think in terms of our meetings and sort of how much we get done at each meeting, we've sort of been doing like a half day or a two or three hour meeting. For me to drive like to Hilo and for me to drive like this time, I'm good at having a lunch break and going on. I would rather get more accomplished and I do have in one day, I mean at a certain point if we get tired and can't take anymore, but I would prefer to get more done in each day that we meet and schedule it that way. Unless somebody has a particular problem on a particular date that we not be hardfast to that. Mr. Onishi: Any comments on that right now? But that's a good one. Maybe we should start from there first on how are we going to schedule our meetings and what is the timeline that we want to do. Mr. Hussey: That's a good starting point. It needs to be balanced because some of us are still working. We've got deadlines and things that taking a full day out is a consideration. I am happy to be on the committee and give what I can to it. Take the time that we have and make it most effective. Rather than take an hour in the meeting in Waimea for the purposes of clarifying what we are we supposed to be doing, who are we going to be serving, what do we expect from the process, and I've got some things to add to that, to really get the job done and use our time most effectively. An hour meeting probably doesn't hack that. We should set a limit though, instead of taking a full day out, it's going to be basically a full day anyway from Volcano here and back by the time we're done. We've got three hours of meeting but maybe takes five or six hours of me, I begin to gulp and say it really cuts in to other responsibilities. So somewhere in there is a balance. I committed to serve as I can and to spend the time most effectively. I don't know what the answer to that is but, anyway, why don't you go ahead and finish your thing. -4 - Ms. Wille: Maybe when we're in, we usually are not meeting in Waimea as Waimea is probably the furthest point from you and both Kona and Hilo. I think we could probably find a balance but I think I would like to just maximize again at what we do. I'm comfortable with doing four hours with a break or something like that. Mr. Hussey: Yes, I think we should have a target time. A four hour thing, that's fine with me. Mr. Onishi: How do you feel Al? Mr. Inoue: I'm fine with what Stew is saying. What was the expectation of the Council as far as the progress or what kind of timeline did they set for the committee in terms of coming up with a report? Ms. Wille: There wasn't, the way it's written, I wrote it and I'm trying to figure it out, that it would be dissolved on November 30th of this year unless prior to that date the Council approves by way of resolution a one year extension. So, in theory we were going to get started, when this was written we were going to get started before we started. So I don't want to make it sound like... Mr. Onishi: Can I add on to what you just said? I guess the thing was to the Council wanted to see if there was any possibility of adjustments to like, I guess the tax rates or exemptions for this coming fiscal year or, you know, the tax year. But we already past that deadline. So now, this group is looking at now for the 14-15, I'm sorry 15-16 fiscal year. Next one is 14-15 so we're going to be, whatever we decide now and we can get the Council to pass going be for 15-16 fiscal year. Ms. Wille: So, in a sense for me.... Mr. Price: Not ag. Mr Onishi: What? Mr. Price: If they file by December 31 st it goes into affect the following year. So if they had filed by December 31St it goes into affect this year. Mr. Onishi: No, but the changes that are going to come from the Council, whatever this Task Force recommends the Council to do... Mr. Price: You're saying the Council year not the tax year? I don't know which one you're referring to. Mr. Onishi: No, depending on, I'm just saying when the Council passes it has to be before the administration, the Finance when they send out all their.... - 5 - Mr. Price: Assessment notices. But that's at the end of March and April, that's the accumulation of what happens before December 31St. December 31St is the cutoff for filing for your agricultural exemption or your homeowners exemption, it's cut off then. Then it's put into the assessment notices that go out in March. Mr. Onishi: And the year before, right? Because this coming March is when the assessments are going out right? Mr. Price: Right. Mr. Onishi: So it had to be done last year. Mr. Price: Yes, for the taxes in August. Mr. Onishi: Right. So this group got to do something this coming year in order to get it for next March Mr. Price: Exactly. Mr. Onishi: And that's what I'm saying. So that's why what the Task Force was done, like Margaret mentioned earlier, so we could try and get something done for this coming year, but we past the deadline already or we're kind of too late. So we've got to do it for the next fiscal year. Ms. Wille: Really because of the whole Sunshine Law and Corporation Counsel was confused about that so we had to reform and that put us those four months back or whatever time period. I think when you asked sort of what, if we were to think, in my mind, our priorities and how we go. If we did say let's look at say agriculture, then we would put out and say here's our recommendations on ag. I guess one of the questions is do we do it in comprehension sections and make recommendations to the Council or do we basically do it and give them a complete package. You know, there's sort of pros and cons. I mean ideally, as far as I'm concerned, we whip through this and have it all and whatever by September and we give them here's our whole package. Cause what happens in ag reflects what happens in residential and things like that. So, and I am not sure we have to answer that today, but in my mind that's sort of my issue. To what extent do we do things, not mini piece meal but chunks, here it is, here's our report. Mr. Price: But when you're saying that we keep getting legislation proposed and approved for the Council. Ms. Wille: We're not approving anything. Mr. Onishi: It's all being deferred. - 6 - Mr. Price: Okay, come to us but we're not going to sit on. We're going to review it and make a recommendation. Ms. Wille: No, we're not doing it piece meal. Mr. Onishi: No, not that. Mr. Price: Okay, where does it stop? I got two from Brenda Ford that we're going to be looking at. Then I read the paper about another one coming from somebody else. Explain to me the process then, I guess, when does it stop, when does it get to us and what are we going to do in order to get it back to the Council. Mr. Onishi: To my understanding or to my, what I had proposed earlier at the last meeting, was, in like that case, we have Council members that are putting in, I guess, bills to help change something like the exemptions or to change rates or whatever. Everything gets to be, at the Council we decide everything gets to be referred back to the Task Force because it's not right when a Council will make a decision over the Task Force. Because the Task Force was created to find out what is the best things to do. So, what Margaret is saying, and I'm kind of supporting what she said, what we need to do is, say when ag comes up, whatever referrals we get for ag we deal with them at one time. Whatever ... Ms. Wille: Exemptions or foreclosures or... Mr. Onishi: Yes, we deal with them at that time. That's why today's meeting is just to set up that. What do we want to see cause right now in Hawaii County we have like 10 different classes. So we need to do, today we need to decide what class do we want to start with first. But now, if we go with this recommendation from the Ad Hoc committee report and we go with that, it's going to take a while. So, what I'm thinking is, and that's why we're having this meeting today, is to decide, okay where do we want to go? What route do we want to go? Do we want to start looking at these classes and start working on it. Ms. Wille: Do I have one of those pages? Mr. Onishi: I can make a copy for you. And then we look at this and maybe have Property Tax help us with whatever concerns to a certain class from here goes all together. Instead of going from like the short term priorities we were going to recommendation 5 and we got to go through the whole thing and I think how many total recommendations do we have? Mr. Price: 40. Ms. Wille: I think that would make more sense if we were trying to shove things in for this year to get a few things in but we are past that deadline. - 7 - Mr. Onishi: Correct. Mr. Price? Mr. Price: The other one that you gave me at that time, I think it was commercial or residential, I mean you can ask this for each one of the categories. Mr. Hussey: Let me ask a clarifying question. On that 26 million and a half. You say taxes save, that's taxes not collected by the County? Mr. Price: Loss. Mr. Hussey: Okay, it's non-dedicated. I own a 20-acre parcel let's say up the Hamakua Coast with sugar and it's got like waterfalls and gulches and I like it and I built my palace there, I'm a baby boomer, I wish I were, and so that's my Shangri-La. I don't pay taxes. So now I get zoned ag, ag 20 in fact, and I did not apply for dedication, how do I get my share of this $26 million tax break. Because I did not apply for exemption. I had to pay for my, I have a homeowner's exemption because I've been residing..... Mr. Price: You can't have both. You can have only one exemption. So go down the list and pick which is better for you. The homeowner's is so much cheaper. It's better. Mr. Hussey: Cheaper for whom. Mr. Onishi: For the homeowner. Mr. Hussey: You mean you save that much more taxes? The homeowners' exemption saves the most taxes for the homeowner? Mr. Price: If you look at it and you try to equal those out. The homeowners' rate is so much more lower than the agricultural rate. Mr. Hussey: Right, I thought so. So, is this $26 million basically people who did not dedicate their land to ag pursuits cause they don't want to pay for farm ground. They got tired and they got their loot and they're going to have fun. They'll raise a couple of mac nuts or lychee or something like that and call it a farm.... Mr. Price: And apply and get the exemption Mr. Hussey: Okay, these are not even mentioned on here? It's non-dedicated. These people have not applied for exemption? Why are they getting $26 million... Mr. Price: You're missing the point. Mr. Hussey: I know. - 8 - Mr Price: Don't feel bad. Ninety-percent of the County don't understand dedicated. Then for some reason somebody in the assessment division said why don't we have another classification for farmers called non-dedicated. It's still ag land. Let's set that up and they did but they didn't put any of the teeth, in fact the previous administrator took all the teeth out saying it had to be at least one acre if it was this and if it was pasture it had to be so many acres. And because it's not dedicated, a speculator could come in and say I have two cows on this 60 acres and he gets the break, takes the cows off by the end of this year and puts it back on the market tomorrow, subdivides it and he's gone. Mr. Inoue: How do you arrive with a $3.5 billion market value and come up with a $378 million ag use value. How do you arrive at the ag use value? Mr. Price: That's the other rates that I'm trying to have Dave find. I didn't bring them. I've got it at home but they're printed out by the assessment office. That's what I was saying earlier. If it's pasture, there's three types of pasture, there's poor, average and good. If it's poor it's like $210 an acre. If it's average it's $420. If it's good it's another rate. Each one of the different classifications in this non-dedicated ag has a land value. So they take the land value, they multiply it against that number. What they get out of that is what they apply against the rate. Mr. Inoue: Second question. If you had dedicate your land to agriculture, what kind of evidence do you have to show the County that you are actually using the land in agriculture? Mr. Price: Dedicated. Now you have to understand that you're asking the word dedicated. Mr. Inoue: Yes. Mr. Price: Not in the non-dedicated. In the dedicated there's a portfolio that you have to supply and have it approved by, I want to use the word bothanist but I might be wrong, but it has to be a special person that approves that and then you pay a fee and then that's recorded. That's the dedicated. You have to, I think it's your income, what you're growing on the property, all of that has to go into a booklet, a special report and then you submit that to the County. The County says yes, you've got all the qualifications and the right people approved it now you pay the $50 we'll record that. Mr. Inoue: Is it reviewed periodically? Mr. Price: Is it reviewed periodically? Uh, no. Ms. Wille: Is there a specific tax rate for 10 year dedicated and 20 year dedicated? Mr. Price: Yes. That's why they got rid of the 20 year. Okay, 10 years, say it's $5.00 and 20 years is $2.50. That's the difference there. - 9 - Mr. Hussey: Could you follow up on this question please about how you got the $26 million? What does that exemption total consist of from the point of view of qualifying for this new category of non-dedicated ag? Mr. Price: I don't follow what your question is. Mr. Hussey: Okay, you're saying that there's $26.5 million of taxes not paid to the County by, let's take the baby boomer case, buys the 20 acre parcel, builds a nice home on it, does he apply for a, he knows he's got options, one of the options is to apply for a homeowner's exemption and he applies for that and he gets the value of the home for $400,000 or whatever. Is that what primarily this $26 million, in your opinion, consists of or what? Mr. Price: No. If he's in the homeowners' class his land is market value. If you'll apply for the agricultural then what part of it, there's a quarter acre taken out for the home, and the home is at market value. The rest of the land, depending on the use, is assessed at or valued at different rates. Mr. Hussey: Okay, let me ask you the question a different way. Mr. Price: Keep going cause I said this is not easy. In trying to explain this to the public its.... Mr. Hussey: Okay, in your mind, is this a loophole that causes the public to be concerned about fairness, equity, clarity and bunch of other things, because people are getting tax exemptions? There's no teeth in this particular thing and it's being abused? Would you classify it in that way or is this something that we can just go on to the next item? Mr. Price: No, that's the main problem, the abuse. Mr. Hussey: What's the problem? How are people abusing it? Mr. Price: Okay, let me give you an example. I ran into, I had hundreds but I'll give you one. This guy had 15 acres in coffee. He had that, applied for it long before I came to the assessment office he was getting it. I got a call from the neighbor, 'well my neighbor hasn't farmed the coffee in four years, three years'. I go up and drive by. There's coffee trees. He's getting the exemption. Has not harvested a bean. Mr. Hussey: I see. Ms. Wille: Can I just put something in writing in terms.... Mr. Price: So I ended up sending him a letter saying that you're going to be taken out unless you do something. No response. I take him out of the ag. Here's where it got tricky. He then went to the Board of Review, took pictures and said 'see the coffee' and the Board of Review granted it. - 10 - Mr Onishi: So they don't have to show any receipts, no income..... Mr. Price: No, nothing. Mr. Onishi: So maybe the process, we could make corrections on that part. Right? That's one of the corrections we could recommend. Mr. Price: My suggestion, so you stay out of trouble with the farmers cause I'm a farmer and I'm on their side, to stay out of trouble just make it dedicated. If they're that much wanting to get into the program let it be dedicated. Mr. Onishi: But if you dedicate it but don't do anything you still get..... Mr. Price- You can't dedicate it unless you do something. Mr. Onishi: No, but like the guy said.... Ms. Wille: On an annual basis you turn in your..... Mr. Onishi: But didn't Stan guys say at the earlier meetings that they don't have enough inspectors to go out? Mr. Price: You don't need the inspectors to go out. I'm sorry. When I my building permits in Kona, if I'm in this one little spot here, I take all of my, he gave me a print out of everybody that was in ag. The problem I had, there was no reports. Nobody ever filed so it's in ag, I have no clue what kind of ag Mr. Onishi- Isn't it still done like that? Mr. Price: No, I was the only assessor that did it. It's just way too much work. That's why I'm sitting here being frustrated. So, I would go out and send them the letters saying you're coming out of ag because there's nothing there. Most of the people never did anything. I took them out of ag. Because I was doing such a proficient job I got 4,000 more parcels added to my workload because I could do more than anybody else so why not give me 4,000 more parcels to work on. I got punished for doing that. So, I'm not happy when I'm saying that you can explain this to the general public because it is complicated. Mr. Onishi: Okay, but so.... Mr. Price: And when you ask, the only way to stop this is to make them go to the 10 year dedication rolls because the non-dedication have no real teeth. Ms. Wille: So can we bring this back so we're trying to look at how we function and.... Mr. Hussey: Yes, we're going down a little trail here that is very interesting... - 11 - Ms. Wille: Exactly. Mr. Hussey: It leads to a gold mine and... Mr. Onishi: So, I think, what I would suggest is we do Ag Class first. It seems like this is a big problem that we have. And so, we can put that on the list first. Now, what would we want to see next? Ms. Wille: Well, I think that the use, getting at some of the hotel and, I don't know how you differentiate commercial and hotels. I consider them both commercial. Mr. Hussey: One's a subset. Ms. Wille: One's a subset. So I want to know full set and then subsets if they're different rates. And then I would like a little chart that has maybe residential. Doesn't mean we're doing residential necessarily at the same time but just, as you said, you take a piece of your land and decide if you're going to fit into this category exemption or you fit into that category exemption. So if we had those three big ones — agriculture, commercial with hotels, and residential — and saw here are the breakdowns of each one and what kind of, how you qualify, and what kind of proof you need. We want it to be so that we don't have to get Bob out there. They should just, you know, one thing Nancy said is we don't require annual. We don't have to re-qualify. You just qualify once and then you go up and do something else and never re-qualify again. How you qualify and re- qualify.... Mr. Onishi: So you're looking at hotel, resorts, and commercial at one time? Mr. Hussey: Well, the commercial classification would include, well maybe not, depends on how you define it. But the zoning has the resort/hotel as one classification, commercial is a classification, industrial. So.... Mr. Onishi: I have the list here with the classes. So, you want to do hotel and resorts first? Mr. Hussey: Which would be the most money? I heard earlier in our discussions that the hotel/resort and, I would guess, commercial buildings and establishments as well. Entire commercial or industrial. .. Ms. Wille: It's all commercial. To me, it's like there's commercial and then you have, okay you qualify to be called industrial or you qualify to be a subset, you're a resort.... Mr. Hussey: In the tax office they're different but they're the same. Ms. Wille: They're all part of being commercial and not, are you commercial or non- commercial. Are you an ag.... - 12 - Mr. Hussey: But the tax savings will be in the aggregate of commercial including the hotel, industrial, whatever other components there might be because it's not being done right. The income approach has never been used so the investment values are not considered. That's a huge....what would be your comment on that? Yes, that's a gold mine? Mr. Onishi: To which one? Mr. Price: Look at the hotels. I was working at the Fairmont Orchid in 2004, went to the County 2005, it sold and I saw the little clip in the paper and so I sent it to Hilo to the Commercial Appraiser and he said 'eh'. It was about $20 million under what it sold for. So, that's your culture. So when you have a culture like that, out at Parker Center when it sold, was $10 million under what it sold for. You talk market value to the general public you guys are in the business, you know that's what sets value. So, if your commercial appraiser is not going to do the work, sorry, you're not going to get the job done. Because... Mr. Hussey: You could include in the classification of commercial, hotels, commercial office buildings, retail establishments, industrial warehouses. That's all commercial. Mr. Price: Right. Ms. Wille: We could make it the subsets. Mr. Hussey: So that whole thing is right where money.... (inaudible — multiple people speaking) Ms. Wille: We could have ag with the subsets, residential with the subsets and commercial with the subsets. Mr. Hussey: Right. So, we're saying that the commercial classification including hotels, commercial.... Mr. Onishi: Okay, so our first thing will be ag. Our second thing is now going to be commercial. Mr. Hussey: Including the hotel, resorts and industrial and commercial office buildings... Mr. Onishi: That's going to be all together, they're all commercial so... Mr. Price: Ten years ago the Council was aware of the problem with commercial and, I said this at our meeting, I said it at the previous group's meeting, and that's when Jacobson made the request from the Council to have the commercial assessed by an outside firm. He knew the value was way out of line. - 13 - Mr. Onishi: Is it good if we put commercial, industrial, hotel and resort all at one time to be evaluated? Or what would you suggest? Mr. Price: I think what you want to look at is if you can get anybody to look at the hotel industry first. Get your feet wet, try to figure out what you think you're going to get as far as reports, or who's going to give you the reports. Is your commercial appraiser up to the standards of being able to assess a Hilton or a Fairmont or is he just.....you know, because we're not building new hotels so you don't have to have a lot of expertise in that. When I first came over before I went to work at the assessment office I had a friend that was contracted to assess the Hilton because of that land intrusion problem down there and they had to come up with a value for it. He was about $26 million over what the County was. Ms Wille: But if we're working for the use, in other words what you're saying, the income data the income approach and not just the market approach. Mr. Hussey: That's critical. Ms. Wille: Is that only have to do with hotels? Why aren't we... Mr. Hussey: No, no. Ms. Wille: But I want to move that same unit. Mr Hussey: They're all income producing properties that are interest to investors and you need the income approach to do that. Ms. Wille: I just wanna....we might focus down on hotels but I want the commercial that deals with what you just said, they all are dealing with income producing properties or income. So that when we're talking.... Mr. Hussey: That's the way the tax office classifies them. They got a commercial appraiser who does all that income producing stuff but he doesn't use the income approach. Ms. Wille: So I don't want to do just hotels if we're going to focus on that. Mr. Price: He doesn't do the sales approach either. Mr. Hussey: Well yeah, right. (Inaudible — multiple speaking — Ms. Wille, Mr. Onishi, Mr. Price) Mr. Onishi: At the last meeting Mr. Price: ....2009, 2010, 2011, Stan can produce in the system and can tell you what the valuation was for those years. Make it easy. - 14 - Mr. Hussey: That's why I as an appraiser never use tax assessed values. I am required by USPAP to put them in there. It's a reference point. It has no bearing to market value and it's a travesty. It shouldn't be that way. I'm sorry, Fresh. Mr. Onishi: So, I think that Stan had mentioned at the last meeting, right, that that's what they're going to look at was the income approach. Mr. Hussey: Right. He's agreed that ..... Ms. Wille: They agreed that we ought to look at that. (Inaudible — multiple speaking — Mr. Hussey, Ms. Wille and Mr. Price) Mr. Price: They were going to look at how to put that in the tax code. Not that they were going to do it. And then they were coming back to our group. Ms. Wille: The next time with their recommendation. Mr. Hussey: They didn't say what the recommendation was going to be? I thought that.... Mr. Price: Just add the one word that's all. Ms. Wille: Yes, but it's in several places of the Code so. Mr. Price: Just add the word 'income'. Mr. Hussey: But whether or not they were actually going to start doing it.. . Ms. Wille: They can't until we take an action and recommend it to the Council. Mr. Hussey: Well, I'm first in line on that. Actually he's first in line on that one. Mr. Price: You could start any of these that you want to start. You don't wait for Council action because of collecting the data is going to be intense if you get the correct data. But if the wait until we get something in writing, go to the Council, goes through all of that scenario, it'll be six months to nine months easy. Mr. Onishi: No, I don't think so. Ms. Wille: You got two very important people on the Council. Mr. Price: Wasn't it Stan that was saying that it's going to be five years for them to collect the data. Ms. Wille: Stan is frustrated. We're going to.... - 15 - Mr. Price: Well, sure he is. Ms. Wille: Let's just bang this out. That's why we're having them do it for next month. Mr. Onishi: Okay, so moving on. The second on our agenda will be hotel/resorts, third will be commercial, fourth going be industrial. Ms. Wille: Well, I just want to go back as I see all of that commercial as sort of a package and if you want to focus, you know, take them in kind... Mr. Hussey: It's an income producing properties is the class and I think we should treat it as a group and look at all of them. It's schematics as much as anything. Mr. Onishi: Yes, but like I asked Bob, for ease, for you was like in that situation, in that position... Mr. Price: The most amount that you recapture and the least.... Mr. Onishi: But for us to recommend to the department, okay this is what we want, all three different. Which would be easier? To go individually or to go like one time like all commercial. Mr. Price: They're going to give you all of it. Mr. Onishi: All commercial? So, second on the list will be hotel/resorts, commercial and industrial then? Mr. Price: Yeah. Mr. Hussey: All commercial including hotel/resorts.... Mr. Onishi: Yes, but we're just going by the classes. Ms. Wille: But we're not on the hook for how they wrote the classes out. Mr. Onishi: Right. Ms. Wille: We could rewrite this whole class. Mr. Price: It's the same appraiser. Ms. Wille: It's just a signature away. Mr. Price: It's normally the same appraiser. You got one commercial appraiser that does industrial. You got other people paid at that classification but they. . Ms. Wille: And what if, we got sort of the ag page here and we've got the commercial page here and we got the residential page here, and we see hey, well I - 16 - guess what you're saying is we need to get them to collect data but we can be planning to get that income, make sure we get that in so that the next cycle that's in effect. Mr. Onishi: What I'm looking at is when we go and request all this information, if we say ag we're going to try to get whatever, like how Bob explained how complicated it is, all these different exemptions, they're going to have to gather all that information for us. Now, if you'd want to include like commercial with that then they're going to have also do ag plus the commercial and I don't think they're going to have enough time..... Ms. Wille: So A, B and C. Mr. Onishi: Yeah. So we can actually move forward and put that puzzle together. That's how I look at it. (Inaudible — multiple talking — Mr. Hussey, Mr. Onishi, Mr. Price) Mr. Price: They are not that hard. Mr. Onishi. Yeah, but we cannot.... Mr. Price: It's not that hard. Stan would be the one to produce this and that. Mr. Onishi: Yeah, but we don't know what else they're doing. They not going only work on what we want.... Ms. Wille: They didn't want to meet this month. We're basically taking advantage of how much.... Mr Onishi: Unless we give somebody full time and say okay you do all that and you do what the Task Force guys want then it's okay. But they're going to have to pull manpower right? Mr. Hussey: Okay, now we got priorities set. We're going to do the ag first, then we're going to do income producing properties starting with the hotels and the rest. Now those are priorities. What are we going to do in order to address those priorities? Are we going to ask the Finance Department for specific information on the ag, in particular the non-dedicated? Are we going to get into the income producing properties? Now we're getting into, okay which .. Mr. Onishi: Specify. Mr. Hussey: So, what are we going to do next here? We're building a plan.... Mr. Price: Can I ask a question along that line and it has to do with prior paperwork we just got that says non-dedicated agricultural use and it explains that. - 17 - Ms. Wille: Now did I get that here? Mr Price: Yes. Mr. Hussey: Amnesty period huh? Is that the press release? Mr. Price: Nope, I'm getting to that. Ms. Wille: I don't think I got it. Mr. Onishi: The highlighted one in the corner. Ms. Wille: Here it is, amnesty. Mr. Price: No, I'm getting to that. That's.... Ms. Wille: That's not the one though that he was looking at. Mr. Price: He's looking at, it looks like this. And that's just the description and I thought you all got it because without that my next comment is not going to mean much. Mr. Inoue: I thought that the third priority was residential. Ms. Wille: And the third would be residential. So that they know first we're going to get all the information from the ag, knock that out, then we get the information on all the income producing, knock that out, and then we do residential and knock that out. Mr. Hussey: This comment on the minutes, if we have a tape recorder running I think we need to be careful about whether or not we develop a court transcript here about everything that's said because if we want to be effective we don't want to offend anybody on the staff and we should be careful about making available because Stan, for example, we've said some things that kind of impugned his reputation. I'm sorry if that's the case. But this is a confidential meeting and that tape recorder should stay in the group... Mr. Onishi: No, it's not. Mr. Inoue: No, this is all public. Public meeting Mr. Price: This is a public meeting and everything is for public.... Mr. Onishi: Yes. Mr. Hussey: Well, I guess I would have some respect for and sensitivity to people on staff so that we don't appear as if there's a vendetta going here as that's not our point. But how do we handle it? Everything we say here is public - 18 - meeting and it gets put out there on the front page of the Tribune-Herald tomorrow? Mr. Onishi: That's why, if you look at the agenda, we're supposed to just try to fit a timelines and what we want to do. But then, we're going off subject and we're getting more into detail of things. Mr. Hussey: No, I don't think that we're going off subject at all. Ms. Wille: I think we're taking an example.... Mr. Onishi: No, but we're getting too detailed and so, basically, if you look at the agenda it was basically setting up our timelines. Mr. Hussey: So how we're going to act, what drives us as a Task Force and who we're trying to serve, I think we've made some good progress. Ms. Wille: I think so too. Mr. Price: Can I finish now that you all have, you got the non-dedicated agricultural use. Staff(Nina)- Could I just ask one question quickly? Mr. Price: Yes. Staff(Nina): Excuse me, because I'm doing your list of prioritizing... Mr. Onishi: Yes. Staff(Nina): I thought that administration, focus on administration was the first priority on filling positions and... Mr. Onishi: Yes, and I guess we can get an update from admin from what they're looking at and then their budget. Staff(Nina): So would that be first or is that.... Ms. Wille: I think we just did it of the substance instead of a priority. It's sort of a... Mr. Onishi: But then also had mentioned that I'm going to send a memo to Nancy so that at our next meeting they'll kind of have, hopefully they'll have their proposed budget with their request from the ad hoc committee's report about like how they can improve. So, that we should get at our next meeting and then from there we should have the request to Finance and the Property Tax office about this is the classes we want to see first. Ms. Wille: But that's a good question. Don't ever refrain from asking if you're unclear. - 19 - Mr. Onishi: An announcement from administration, has already started working on the ag use matters and there's a plan in process that will push along by the Mayor and to follow up on their priorities at this point. Ms. Wille: Where did you get that note from? Mr. Onishi: I got it from Erin, I mean not Erin, from Nina. Ms. Wille: Wait, I can't...can you say that again? Mr. Onishi: Okay, administration is already started working on the ag use. Ms. Wille: What does that mean? What is it that they're working on? Staff(Nina): They're working on the abuse and what their plan is to try.... Ms. Wille: Are they coming to us, then they should come to us and talk about what their ideas are. Staff(Nina): Maybe you could get a report as to what they did so far cause they have a plan in action already. Mr. Price: So what good is this committee if they're doing that? Ms. Wille: Yes, then they should be coming here, not implementing anything. Mr. Onishi: No, but we haven't asked them about ag yet. Mr. Price: So what are they doing it for if they already know what... Mr. Onishi: So, that can be part of, when we talk about the ag class, then they can.... Staff(Dave): It's in the IAAO recommendations... Ms. Wille: Yes, so they should come report, they shouldn't do something, a separate choo-choo train. Mr. Onishi: No, but also in the report I don't think we even hit that one yet, right? One of the recommendations.... Ms. Wille: But we're not going to do it that report way. We're taking it by categories. So we want them to come in and explain their ideas at the next meeting. Mr. Onishi: No, not.... Ms. Wille: What was that one about this, immediate release? Mr. Price: Okay, can I get a word in there. - 20 - Ms. Wille: Yes, you can. Mr. Price: Okay, it has nothing to do with that. If you read that, I thought that this was nice. The problem that I had with this when I read it, and I've got the article, is timing. They didn't really give the general public much time. To even find this you really had to be looking in the newspaper to find this to begin with. But I would like a report from Stan, very simple, how many parcels were in agricultural on 2013 and how many are in on 2014 to tell me how effective this piece of news was. But this was published in the back of the paper where it's required, I think. But unless you were really, really looking for it that article did not stick out at all. Mr. Hussey: Good idea. Do we need a motion to.... Mr. Price: And, this is the kind of thing, if they're going to do something and they want to try and help, then come back to us and explain how effective that was Ms. Wille: I don't, I disagree. I think they ought to be coming to us about what they're planning to do before they do it. I mean, I have similar concerns in terms of this and this comes out on the 19th and it's this date. What are we doing with sort of little pokes here? Mr. Price: They did this because of what we said. Ms. Wille: We didn't tell them to go do that. Mr. Price: They did this because of what we were talking about looking at the agricultural.... Ms. Wille: I know, but they shouldn't be going ahead and doing it. That's why we're working with them. I don't care, they're not supposed to. Mr. Onishi: Why Margaret? It's not that they're not supposed to. They're administration. We're working with the Council. Mr. Price: They can do what they want to. Mr. Onishi: Yes, administration has their own authority. That's what you got to remember. Mr. Price: They can do what they want to. Mr. Onishi: Remember, we're the legislative branch. They can implement whatever they... Mr. Price: I would like to just see the results of it. That's one of the things we talked about... - 21 - Ms. Wille: Then they're going off doing their program. We're off doing our program. (inaudible — multiple Mr. Hussey: No, I think that they continued recording of what they're doing, and they have ongoing responsibilities and programs, and we can't stop them from doing it. Ms. Wille: I want to know what they're planning and doing before they implement it. I don't want it to be, here we are not communicating. That's lack of communication the way I see it. Mr. Hussey: If there are things on the audit list that are being implemented that, I think that the courtesy of communication is good will. The people around the table don't want to go to war with the County, with the Finance Department or anybody else. They need to keep us informed and if they're going to take care of things, say we're already taking care of this recommendation and here we are and that's fine. I don't expect to continue to get that but not to curtail things that the audit thing said would be beneficial. Ms. Wille: I disagree with you on that. I would like to know what they have planned. It doesn't mean stop them but I want to know before they're put into effect. I keep saying we shouldn't be taking things piece meal and then doing them in a bad way. I don't feel that this was done very well. The same thing they did on some other things. Mr. Price: Well, the thing that's got me about this that, I guess I was more upset about, an amnesty program? What, are they reading the paper too much? This is policy. They're either in the program or they're not. Why are we offering an amnesty program? Ms. Wille: I just see one answer.... Mr. Price: I don't, maybe I'm way out of place but, okay then explain to me what you got out of your amnesty program. Mr. Hussey: Can't we communicate to Nancy that we, in the future, we noted that a couple announcements regarding an amnesty thing here and some information on some other things that we would appreciate their keeping us informed regularly before they implement something and we are working on similar things and want to be sure that we're together. They appointed us to do the job. Let's communicate... Mr. Onishi: No, the Council appointed us Ms. Wille: But they're a part of it. I mean, that's why we said.... -22 - Mr. Hussey: The Council important constituent, the Finance Department important constituent, we need to work with them both. Ms. Wille: Yes, we need to work together, not separately. Mr. Hussey: So, we send them a communication saying we note your amnesty announcement on December 19 and a couple of other things. We would appreciate, as the Task Force, your letting us know prior to implementation of any of the steps of the IAAO audit or whoever and thanks very much. Just do it without recognizing that they are legitimate in their executive authority. We are an appointed Council arm trying to rationalize this thing so let's work together and insist on them communicating in a timely way before they do stuff. If we can do it that way without have a fist fight over it then we can do that. Mr. Price: Similar to what the Council Members did and what Valerie did here. Mr. Onishi: What. Mr. Price: Notified us that something's going on. Mr. Onishi: No, no. See it came to Council but she is the Finance Chair and that's why she had to refer it to us. But the Council... Mr. Price: No, you miss what I was saying. Mr. Onishi: What. Mr. Price. They're trying to keep us in the loop and I think that's all what Stew's saying... Mr. Hussey: No. May I propose a motion, Mr. Chair, that we make such a communication to the Finance Department to, and point out a couple of things that we observed, and that we would appreciate before they implement any further steps just informing us of their.... Ms. Wille: What their suggestions are. Mr. Hussey: Exactly. I'm making that motion. Ms. Wille: Second. Mr. Onishi: Any discussion. I'm not supporting it, that's my recommendation. Mr. Hussey: How else would you do it? Mr. Onishi: Anybody else has discussion. Mr. Hussey: Okay, discussion would be how would you suggest that we. .. - 23 - Mr. Onishi: I think that the wording would be kind of too broad, maybe not broad but specified. I mentioned always or I mentioned before, administration is an admin executive. We're the legislation, we do the legislation part, right, the Council. So I cannot see us demanding them to do things. Ms. Wille: We are asking them to bring it. Mr. Onishi: Yes, we can ask if we can be at least notified or we can ask if we can at least see the press release prior or maybe, or even asking if they can let us know like, in discussion. But the thing is to tell them that you need to keep us informed and this and that, I mean... Mr. Hussey: Well, it's a matter of schematics. I think as a courtesy, and you're right, they're the executive and they have the right to carry out their functions and we are appointed by the legislative and so if the legislature can put that in terms of a courteous, this Task Force... Ms. Wille: Like a resolution. We're urging them to please cooperate and let us know what's going on so that we're not working in two separate tracks. Mr. Onishi: I don't think we are working in two separate tracks. I think they are following some of the recommendations that was done... Ms. Wille: That's what I have a problem with. We need to discuss that the next time. Mr. Onishi. What. Ms. Wille: If they're just picking at recommendations and proceeding along. Mr. Onishi: I don't think they are because if you look at the report they have, their responses, and at our meetings so far, they've been defining everything for us. Ms. Wille: Maybe we could just ask for a report as to what they have been working on. Mr. Onishi: That's a good one. Ms. Wille: Why don't we ask for a report on what aspects they are proceeding on in this report and where they are on it and what they see their next steps and which one of those steps should be better coordinated with us. Mr. Hussey: I would be happy to amend the motion to.... Mr. Onishi: Withdraw your first one and then... Mr. Hussey: I would be happy to withdraw. - 24 - Mr. Onishi: Then your new motion. Mr. Hussey: Would you like to make the motion? Ms. Wille: Okay, that we request a report from the Finance Department as to which of the items in that auditor's report they're working on, have been working on independently and what the status of their efforts are and then look at what next steps and which ones would be best coordinated with us. How to best coordinate those efforts and to integrate those into our combined effort. Mr. Onishi: Can I have a second? Mr. Inoue: Second. Mr. Onishi: Second by Mr. Inoue. Any discussion? Ms. Wille: Sounds good. Mr. Onishi: All those in favor. (Ayes). Any opposed? Okay, motion carried. Mr. Hussey: Thanks for the modifications. Mr. Onishi: I think that's better. That's way better. Mr. Inoue: Do we need a motion to approve the priority that we.... Mr. Onishi: We can do that after this. After we finish. So now, back to our priorities. The ag class. Do we want to put down like a timeline of when we want to get this thing done? Ms. Wille: I think that's meaningless. I think that we try to do it as a.s.a.p. Let's just do it first.... Mr. Onishi: But at least put down some sort of target date. Mr. Hussey: What are we going to do? What are we going to do by what date? So let's just take a second and figure out what research or who are we going to get from what... Mr. Price: What information are we going to ask in order to help us understand what we're doing? That's why it's very.... Mr. Onishi: And that's why now, Members, what kind concerns you folks have and that's why we got to list them down. Ms. Wille: So sort of like a...so if we took agriculture and here are the rates and here's the top rate and here's what you do to qualify for a lower rate. And then what proof we need for each one and then, the timeline, how often do - 25 - they have to re-qualify. I would also say, what additional, their suggestions as to, like improving the qualifications. One thing Stan said is if you qualify every year, then say you have 3,000 pieces of paper coming in, where's the balance. Maybe it's two years. What are the.... Mr. Onishi: So like exemptions is one. Ms. Wille: Yes. So basically everything from the top rate down is some, I look at, is some exemption. Whether you use deduction, exemption,.... Mr. Onishi: What do they use? Mr. Price: What you want to ask, it says there's 10,711 in the program now. How many applied in 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2013? Ms. Wille: So basically what we'd be asking for is an expansion of this. Mr. Price: Instead of, what Stan's saying is oh gee, I'm going to get 3,000 additional requests. Well it's good to say but let's see what the track has been on information instead of just saying ok he can't do it because he's going to be overloaded. Ms. Wille: So we want the data. Mr Price: So we need some different data from Stan for us to comprehend. If he's only adding, I'm just using numbers, if he's only adding a hundred and say they took out 50, that's not 3,000 in one year. Mr. Onishi: Why don't I suggest this. We have the members go back. You guys can think of what kind of questions concerning ag that you folks want, write it down, then we can put that all together and then we can submit it. .. Ms. Wille: Okay, I've already said what I want but I think Bob's the one.... Mr. Hussey: I think that while we're together here, because I don't have the detail and I haven't got the time to do a whole lot of research outside of these meetings unfortunately. I know I could benefit from it but, I hear two questions we can, while we're here and maybe we need to do more homework afterwards. But Margaret has asked for a matrix, essentially, that says here's, what are we using now, this is somebody without an exemption and these are the classifications and put it on a piece of paper so that we have, and it may already be on the website I think Dave or somebody was trying to look for that, I never saw it, but if there is a piece of paper that says here's how the ag, we're focusing now on how we're going to attack the ag thing. What are we going to do. What information do we need. So you're wanting a model of what is and what types of exemptions. We have a piece of paper here that says there's a 20 year, that's gone. There's non-dedicated. There's about four categories of -26 - native forest and whatever Are all these, Bob, that we need to have in Margaret's matrix or is there something else? Mr. Price: No, the only one that really comes up with all of the abuses, 99%, is the non-dedicated. The native forest is so miniscule on this island it's not worth the time and when you're in the 10 year dedication, those are normally your big farm ranches and those people understand designation. Ms. Wille: I don't. I don't okay, so I need at least to have that on the matrix so I see that in comparison. Mr. Onishi: Okay, so that's why, going back again, we need to kind of write this down so that because how are we going to refer this back to them when nobody's writing it down. Ms. Wille: What if we say we want this in a matrix? This and any other categories. You know, maybe we want to promote native forest. I don't know what that category is. If it's little, maybe we want it bigger. Mr. Price: You can't. Ms. Wille: Well I don't know that. You're smart. I'm just saying.... Mr. Price: That's like lava properties except they're.... Mr. Hussey: So it's a simple matrix. We've got only three classifications here. We've got a 10 year.... Mr. Onishi: The public don't know so what if they wanted some more areas being native, right. Mr. Inoue: We're setting up target dates, right? We're not.... Mr. Onishi: That's what we're trying to do. Mr. Inoue: So whatever information we get to help us make the decision may or may not delay the target date. We can move the target date depending on how much informational feedback that we need. Ms. Wille: What if we ask for the different categories of agriculture in a matrix, what they are, what the different...how you get the different subcategories, and how you qualify and how often you qualify. Mr. Hussey: And add to that, as Bob was suggesting, how many people applied for in the last three years, 2010, 2011, 2012, and put that in the matrix too so that we know the numbers. Then we start to have a basis on what to think about. Ms. Wille: Then if it says two were in native forest we'd be like okay, based on the.. . -27 - Mr. Hussey: Bob, could you put together a, you see what she's trying to do here to conceptualize this thing, I need it too. Would you be able to do that? Mr. Price: Yeah, I guess. Ms. Wille: And let them fill in the information. Mr. Hussey: And then you can shoot to the members of the committee and we've got this thing that basically knows that the big money is in non-ded and.... Mr. Onishi: I don't think that we can just send it. It has to go through the committee first. It's the Sunshine Law. Mr. Hussey: We can't draft something individually and share it among the five of us? Mr. Onishi: Cannot because if it goes to the board then it's a Sunshine Law violation. Mr. Hussey: Okay, so how do we it? How do we... Mr. Onishi: That's why I'm saying that you guys need to write it down and then.. Ms. Wille: Well I think that I can write it down. I can write it right here, right now and then you just add in... Mr. Onishi: Yes, just add in what you're..... Ms. Wille: And I feel that if you're the last one, I give it to you and you can then... Mr. Price: Formalize it and give it back to Fresh. Ms. Wille: One question that I have is, Stan's got so much on him and he's so pivotal, he's clearly getting pulled in all different directions. Do we want to think about in the budget having somebody in there that's assigned to us and can help us knock some of this out and not having it be basically.. . Mr. Price: No, and I'll just explain why. When you're asking for this data there are a number of other people that can also get the data. Lisa can get the data The appraisal supervisor can get the data. This person that did the ratio analysis should be able to get the data.... Ms. Wille: I don't want it to leave it on Stan and he says I'm leaving because it was that damn Task Force that was the last straw. (Laughter) Mr. Price: What I'm trying to get at is, maybe they don't know as much as he does about the computer but they should know enough to get all of this data without... If Stan's the only person that can do this then... - 28 - Ms. Wille: There's a problem. Mr. Price: There's a major problem Mr. Onishi: Oh yes, that's true. Mr. Inoue: That's true. That's not how to run a business Mr. Price: And it's, I'm sitting here five years removed and I'm giving you... Mr. Hussey: There's simple elements there that somebody says okay here's what they want. Mr. Price: Cause I can look at this and I can understand this real well but very few people can because you have not been there. You just haven't been there and there's so much I'm missing from the background that I'm calculating when I'm looking at this. But you can have the same thing on residential. I've got it somewheres. I just found the ag real easy but I got it on residential and I've got it on commercial I believe. And it's staggering to see the amounts. Ms. Wille: What is it, must be like if you own ag land and you have vacant and it has not dedicated or non-dedicated or anything like that? That's another rate? Mr. Price: That's the residential rate. Ms. Wille: If you're ag land and you don't.... Mr. Price: Just because you're zoned ag does not mean that you one, either qualify or want to do it. Ms. Wille: Okay, ag land not put in ag category. Then it defaults to residential. Mr Price: Right. Ms. Wille: And there's ag zoned land and there's something you could be using non ag zoned land, your urban land for agriculture. Mr. Inoue: No. Ms. Wille: It just goes by zones? Mr. Price: You can do that but it's against the law. Ms. Wille: Okay, I see, you need a permit or something. Mr. Price: You can't. -29 - Ms. Wille: Okay, I'm just trying to get it clear. Mr. Price- If you're in ag zone, you then qualify for any of the ag exemptions. If you're not in ag zone you do not. A residential subdivision.... Ms. Wille: Oh I see. Okay. Ag zone tax category. Mr. Price: Kohala Estates, up on the coast up there, three acre parcels all in ag zone. They all qualify for ag. Million dollar homes on.... Mr. Onishi: Sunrise Ridge. Sunrise Ridge is all ag. Mr. Price: So what, you know, you look at that and say why. Because of how loosely this non-dedicated is. Mr. Onishi: But like you said earlier, they could go homeowners if they lived there. Mr. Price: Right, but the majority of them don't live there. So they can't get their homeowner's exemption so they go the ag because they let some cows run on the property. Mr. Onishi: So at least their land get the tax.... Mr. Price: Just the land. But that's some break. Mr. Onishi: Right. Mr. Price: But if you're down in Mauna Kea or Mauna Lani, down in that area, you have a large parcel you're paying a high rate. You don't get the exemption or you don't get the qualification. Mr. Inoue: So you're talking about agricultural zoned from the County perspective or the State perspective? Mr. Price: County. Mr. Inoue: Now how does the agricultural classification interrelate with the County classification of ag? Because if you're urban, you apply to the County for rezoning or whatever. But then when you're State classified agriculture you have to apply for a change from ag to urban. Mr. Price: If you're State owned land you're exempt from taxes. Mr. Inoue: State owned land? Mr. Price: Yes. Mr. Inoue: I mean State classified agricultural land. - 30 - Mr. Price: The only way it could be State classified that I know of is being State owned. The State doesn't come in here unless it's King Kamehameha property like.... Mr. Inoue: For example, like say Kaloko where Stanford Carr, his property is like State ag district so they got to go to the State Land Use Commission to change the zoning. Mr. Price: State you don't qualify for the ag. Mr. Onishi: At that time? Mr. Price: No. You don't qualify for any of it. Mr. Onishi: So what is it under? Commercial? Mr. Price: Residential or commercial. Mr. Onishi: Even though it's State ag? Mr. Price: Right. That's why the County has the programs and they're very protective of their programs. I know they've been butting heads but once the County took over their own, that's why this is the only assessed values. Mr. Onishi: You'd think that State ag would be the same ag. Mr. Price: Now, sometime back an article was in the newspaper and it says rental rates up for Hawaii ag land. This has nothing to do with us but the way it's written there I was thinking wow, who in the assessment division changed the values. And it wasn't. This was talking rental rates for Hawaii agricultural land. I'm not even sure who does that. But it was interesting to read that article... Mr. Hussey: Farmers do it to grow ginger, a couple of acres. An owner will lease it for a couple hundred dollars a year. Six months or a year lease for a few hundred dollars. It happens frequently. Mr. Price: But that's a separate entity out there setting that value. Has nothing to do with the County setting.... Mr. Hussey: It's the owner of the land. It's the owner of the land and he's just subletting his land. It has nothing to do with taxation. It could. Mr. Price: But when I read this article it was like wow, rental rates up for Hawaii ag land. Has nothing to do with us and what we're talking about here. Mr. Onishi: Okay Margaret, are you finished? - 31 - Ms. Wille: Yes, I think so. Let me just show it to you. Mr. Onishi: Maybe you could just read what you have and if anybody wants to add on they can just.... Ms. Wille: Okay, I will. So I have ag categories, the different categories. Non- dedicated then dedicated, 10 year, 20 year. Then native forest, then ag land not put into an ag category. It defaults to residential. So then what the different rates are and then what the eligibility requirements are and then just what that time period, if you have to re-do it once a year or whatever, and what documentation is required to meet that, and then options for change. Mr. Hussey: Good. And then on the right of that is Bob's addition of how many people applied for each of those things for each of the last three or five calendar years.... Mr. Price: Three should be fine. Mr. Hussey: Three? Okay, the last three calendar years, complete calendar years, 2013, 12 and 11. Mr. Price: That I thought was interesting and it goes to what you were asking that...he explained it very well as how complicated... Ms. Wille: Then I have options for change that are already in process or being considered or be possible. Like one thing they said is maybe they should reapply every year or do we have them do a, give their driver's license or, like in Maui, you have to give your Federal tax report. So that's what have. Mr. Onishi: Okay, so anything else we need to.... Ms. Wille: I think that gets us started. Mr. Hussey: Sounds good. Ms. Wille: And is it all rates per acre? Is that how it works? Mr. Price: No, I'm going to get the rates. Ms. Wille: How are the rates? Are we going to put it in there or have them do it? Mr. Price: On the non-dedicated. Ms. Wille: They'll put it in. I don't think you need to. Mr. Price: But I want to find my own copy of what they used to be. - 32 - Mr. Hussey: I think that we could make this as a draft and then if they have to tweak it... Ms. Wille: Then we start working off of it. We have something to build on. Mr. Onishi: Bob, you will take this and you'll kind of make it more detailed and much more cleaner. Mr. Hussey: Or put it on an excel spreadsheet. Ms. Wille: Or do you want to just give it to her and then have them give it back to you after they do it.... Mr. Onishi: And then we can put it on the agenda. Mr. Price: Her meaning who? Ms. Wille: Nancy. Do you want to work with them in terms of getting what is... Mr. Onishi: What I was going to do is just get this, make a memo, send it to Nancy asking if they can help us in getting this done for us. Ms. Wille: Or do we just turn it over to her right now to work it up and work with Bob. Mr. Onishi: I think it's better to send something to Nancy right? Mr. Hussey: Well Bob, if there's anything that I can help with this before we send it to the County my preference would be to have you take a good look at it as an insider. If you feel it's okay the way it is then fine. Mr. Price: Well, what you really need and I haven't been able to produce it because it's at home. In the non-dedicated, I think there is eight different classifications in the non-dedicated to begin with. Then within that, say one is pasture and under pasture there's three rates for the different pasture... Ms. Wille: This is going to be a big progress. I think she understands it. Mr. Price: Then there's a rate for truck crops. ... Ms. Wille: Do you want her. she says she can work with this. Staff(Nina): I'll do it and send the draft to Mr. Onishi. Ms. Wille: We'll just leave it to you two and you can... Mr. Hussey: Protocol would say that only couple people from the panel gets to review the thing or do we all get to see it. - 33 - Mr. Onishi: No, we cannot all see it. Ms. Wille: At the next meeting we all can. Up to two can prior. Mr. Hussey: To finalize this thing, staff's going to give it to two people only. (inaudible — multiple background conversations) Ms. Wille: I have just one question. What if you have ag zoned but it's completely vacant land, are you still defaulting into residential category? Mr. Price: Yes. Ms. Wille: Yes? Mr. Price: Yes. Unless you don't use it for some reason then you.... Ms. Wille: Unless you go into a category? Mr. Price: An ag category. Just because, and that is one of the dilemmas that got them in a bind. When they switched the computer program over a year before I went there, anybody that was in agricultural just got switched over without applying for it. And then they went back in and tried to get some of those out and they just never did. Ms. Wille: They just never did? Mr. Price: Never finished it. Mr. Inoue: At the last meeting Stan was talking about working with the State, the income tax filings. Can't you verify if the person is generating a agricultural income from that information for the parcel? Mr. Price: It's never been required to ask the people in ag to provide that. Most of the people don't. I'll give you the example of the coffee farmer, if he's not harvesting the coffee, he's not going to be able to produce anything. Most of the people, I just call them rock gardens, I got a third acre and I planted some ginger and I planted some.. Mr. Inoue: Most people starting a business, your investment, you're going to file a tax exemption..... Mr. Price: That person would normally go into the 10 year dedication. Mr. Inoue: So that tax information they could use for exemption, I mean deduction for the expenses involved would be part of the information the State would have already. - 34 - Mr. Price: Correct, and that is on the dedication. That's why I talked about the non- dedication. Once I get into the non-dedicated it's like opening the flood gates and all of your views are perfectly legitimate for the dedicated. Ms. Wille: In my mind, we'll just start as we're eliminating non-dedicated unless we now have a system that works. Mr. Inoue: And that's what I was talking about, the dedicated, not the non-dedicated. Mr. Price: That's why I started, I don't mean to get a little over the edge on it but, you know how long I had to deal with this and if I see the slow wheels I try to do it better. I'm not that kind of a person. I try to do work. Ms. Wille: We feel like you're dragging us along. Mr. Onishi: So now, if Finance cannot get that info together by the 20th Ms. Wille: Of March. We're not meeting until March. Mr. Onishi: I know, I'm just saying in case, it will be put on the next month's agenda. Okay, so April. Just in case. I don't know. Mr. Hussey: Well, this is a busy time of year for them. Ms Wille: And that's why I said what if we were to go in and have like our own personal person, data person.... Mr. Hussey: At a time when they're at their peak and we're asking for me, that takes a.... Mr. Price: Well, I know what you're saying but from my perspective that they had have to be produced in a different form or a certain form in order to be able to go to Nancy for Nancy to give it to the Mayor so they could set the budget. When you're.... Ms. Wille: So it's really just filling in the blanks. Mr. Price: When you're asking, oh gee they're busy. Well that's what they're doing right now. They're setting budget. And the only way to set the budget is come up with these pages that I showed you. Ms. Wille: If he doesn't have it available by next month, I think we ought to figure out how we're handling that. Cause I want to get this... Mr. Price: Cause if they don't have it, I'm just wondering how are they're going to set the budget. Mr. Onishi: So, do we want to do now like how we did the agriculture. Do we want to do the hotel/resorts, commercial and industrial? - 35 - Mr. Hussey: The timing on requesting information would be critical. We're concerned about response on the first issue on the ag and tax season underway, I would think it not wise to push for a simultaneous look at the income producing properties yet. I think it.... Ms. Wille: I think we'll put on the agenda to talk to Nancy and administration about what their timeline is in terms of being able to get.... Mr. Onishi: Okay, what about this. What we can say on record is okay, for the hotel/resorts, commercial and industrial, if we can kind of get like that same format like we did for the ag but we do it in April. Our meeting in April, sometime in April. We give them an idea... Mr. Hussey: We want to know what the model of exemptions is and we go from there. Mr. Onishi: Then the residential, maybe we can get that in May. Ms. Wille: That's our request and then we'll get the feedback from the crew. Mr. Hussey: Sounds like a plan. Mr. Onishi: Okay, can I get a motion to approve the agriculture report to be given to the Task Force on March 20, the hotel/resorts, commercial and industrial would be a report in April, and then the residential report would be done sometime in May. Mr. Hussey: So moved. Ms. Wille: I'll second that. Mr. Onishi: Any discussion? Seeing none. All those in favor of approving that request say aye. (Ayes). Those opposed. So motion carried. Ms Wille: Can we on the other, for when we do commercial and residential, have like a little chart along like these lines so we have.... Mr. Hussey: I think the motion is encompassing that because we use the same, here's the standard for exemptions and how you comply with those or... Ms. Wille: Just so this incorporates. We got this information. Then we can say okay, native forestry, this isn't a big area, and such and such. The condo, I don't know what all the categories are Just start with the biggest umbrella and break it down. Mr. Onishi: Also, I guess if we can, I'm thinking with this report, if they include also with their report to us what, in these recommendations.. Ms. Wille: Is relevant to ag. - 36 - Mr. Onishi. And it's all included in that report that they give us. Mr. Hussey: Good idea. So you're getting the audit items that they're doing already and we're saying in the March meeting where we're going to address ag please let us know all of the ag initiatives that you are doing something or planning to do something about.... Ms. Wille: All of the recommendations. We want all of the recommendations that are relevant to ag so we have a package. Mr. Onishi: So may we have a motion. Ms. Wille: I make a motion that we also request that the administration give us the relevant recommendations for agriculture and the same thing would be for commercial and residential... Mr. Onishi: From this, from the report. Ms. Wille: And including what the, any of the ad hoc committee advice was. Mr. Onishi: Okay, second? Mr. Inoue: Second. Mr. Onishi: Second by Mr. Inoue. Any discussion. Okay, all those in favor say aye. Mr. Price: I have a question. Mr. Onishi: You have a question, alright. Mr. Price: I just keep coming up with these... Mr. Hussey: This is your day. (laughter) Mr. Price: My office, my day. No. On Saturday, October 26, headlines in the paper 'Big Changes in the Real Property Tax Division'. It talks about that. Mr. Hussey: About what, I'm sorry? Mr. Price: This. Mr. Onishi: The report. Mr. Hussey: Oh, the audit. - 37 - Mr. Price: And it says in there, the County has already completed or is well on its way to completing 13 of the 40. 1 understood those 13 were the ones that we went through and, these, is that what we're asking in this? That the 13 that they're talking about is either completed.... Mr. Onishi: Oh no, no, no. Ms. Wille: We're taking all 40, all the ones in the full 40 that are relevant. And then if there's something like a progress report or certain recommendation or something that came after that relevant to ag. Mr. Price: I'm not saying it correctly. Recommendation No. 7 on the first page was the first one that we handled. Mr. Hussey: Which was? Mr. Price: The Real Property Tax Division should prepare an estimate of the number and allocation of the staff it needs. Finance will estimate staffing requirements by the 30th of November and will include them in the budget draft. So that's already done? Mr. Onishi: Right. Mr. Hussey: Have we seen that? Mr. Price: Because it says `done' in here but that's not what you were saying. Because some positions are unfilled with recruitment ongoing and pending. Mr. Onishi: And so... Mr. Price: So we'll get an update... Mr. Onishi: That's why I had mentioned earlier that not only ag, commercial, we need to have admin come in and let us know what on their part, what's required by them in this report or this audit, they need to report back to us. Like did you fill these unfilled positions? That's what they got to let us know and that's why I think at one of the meetings I mentioned that if they are looking at filling, I know there were some positions that were unfunded, and if they want it funded then they need to come to Council again. That's where they got to let us know okay, .... Ms. Wille: And they need us to be the helping hands to help a little. Mr. Onishi- Yes, and that's how the process going be. So that's why I was saying too, with this, when we are setting our targets, do we want to have admin coming in and telling us okay, this is on our part this is what we're doing and this is what we need help from the Council in support. Or the Task Force to support with a recommendation to the Council. - 38 - Mr. Hussey: That's why we passed a motion earlier indicating that we wanted the County to let us know what they were doing along these lines. Mr. Onishi: Correct. And so, but I don't know if we made it where we need it by a certain time, did we? Ms. Wille: We did say we wanted it next time. Mr. Inoue: We did. Mr. Onishi: We did, okay. Ms. Wille: Now they may come back and say it's going to put ag one month further or whatever. Mr. Onishi: Possible. Ms. Wille: So, this is what we're requesting and then obviously we'll hear back and see if Bob has his whip out and.... Mr. Onishi: Okay, so the motion is right now to add on to the report any information.... Ms. Wille: The status of those audit... Mr Onishi: That can be combined with that certain class to be included. Ms. Wille: So, essentially we're saying two things. If they're doing things right now, cause you know they didn't want to sit around and wait for us, if they're doing things right now even if it has to do with some other category, we want to know what's going on. Okay, so we want that report. Then pull out of that into the thing on ag when we do that so we're able to handle things in a more organized fashion. Mr. Onishi: And that was the first one we did. That first motion. Like whatever they're doing now to kind of..... Ms. Wille: I'm glad that you're here. I just want to say, I express my appreciation. Mr. Onishi: Yes. So, any other questions on that motion? Hearing none, all those in favor say aye. (Ayes). Those opposed? Motion is carried. Okay, is there any other discussions? Mr. Price: I have one and it goes to again another newspaper article. Organic farming tax breaks. From the article, I understand what he's saying, but when he goes down he says that the tax revenues won't be as much. He's talking a minimum of 29,000 to do this. But this is the kind of maybe unknowing all of the ramifications that got us into this place that we're at right now, and nothing opposed to him in trying to help his constituants, - 39 - but when I read this article and, another tax break. Boy, it's killing us. We're sitting here trying to come off, like Stew said, with a good, positive to the general public. This is what makes news. It doesn't make us that very popular if we're going to allow these things to go on without chastising the abuse of the problem. Another program. Ms. Wille: That's why Fresh and I said no, this is not a good idea to proceed. We need to look at this in context and in a comprehensive way and that every time you get this break, how you're doing it, how you qualify. So that's why we had it referred to you, Bob. Mr. Price: Thank you. Already got it in the newspaper. That's what's bad. Mr. Hussey: Before we adjourn we have got three key priorities and we got those scheduled so that by May the tip of the iceberg, the 10% that wags the rest of the 90% will have been pretty well handled. Would it be well at this point to look toward an end point and say, on this round we are going to hit the most important things where we can get the most bang for the buck. We don't want to keep doing this for another two years and so these are the three immediate things we're going to work on. We may come back in the next meeting or so with another one or two and we'd like to wrap this process up by. Now we're beginning to have a handle on what might be feasible in terms of an end date. Cause if it's open ended and people think well, I can't do it this month, they can wait and have another five meetings before we do anything. No, that's not helpful for anybody. So, is that something we can come to grips with now or do we have to wait? Ms. Wille: Okay, I have a question. So if we get the ag information on March, basically then we'll be getting it and we'll probably have questions, what does this word mean and do all of that. And then we'd be looking to May to making any of our preliminary decisions and things having to do with commercial. The same thing over, we get them in May the residential information and then in June we would be able to make decisions then in June and probably in July we're still cleaning stuff up. You know, getting organized from that, where that came down. So in August we'd be looking at all of them How do they all fit together and are we missing stuff. Then August we could be able to.... Mr. Hussey: I'd like to see something like that in writing along with our initial discussions of this meeting that identifies the values that we bring to this thing per the initial resolution, the fairness, the clarity and all of the things, and the priorities that we set, the timeline, that we want to finish it up by mid-year and that we will appreciate the cooperation of all parties so that we can make this crisp, hit the high points, get the grades good for the County as a whole and make .. Ms. Wille: And that would make it so we could pass something before this next, before the next election. Then we would be dealing with the Council - 40 - Members that we have right now. I think that the one thing that's an unknown is sort of how many referrals we'll get. Zendo comes up with some, and this, and people outside of our group. Mr. Hussey: Well, they're going to start getting interested when we start making a decision and saying okay, we're going to start closing somebody's loophole here and then suddenly instead of one person or nobody being in the room there's going to be some interest. That's okay. Mr. Price: So does the general public hear that or get to know that? That we're doing that? Because I've read a number of articles that don't look good for our committee. We've never gotten out in public. It's been Nancy Lauer and now this Tom Calles who's writing articles and we haven't said a word about inviting the general public.... Mr. Hussey: Well, we haven't concluded or formulated a basis for making a statement until today. Now we've got something that can be said in a page, press release if necessary, so that we have a charter and people know what we're trying to do and they're going to be like okay. So now we're starting to make decisions, here's the timeline, here's the priorities, we're going to do the ag thing, etc. So get ready, we have gotten ourselves organized finally. But we got it. Mr. Onishi: I would suggest too, if can, once we got the ag report, so we're going to be getting information, we're going to start looking at what kind of recommendations we're going to forward to the Council, correct, for changes, if there is any changes to the ag class, right. And so, I'm thinking instead of waiting all the way until like maybe August and then giving everything to the Council, I think we should go as we finish each class and then we could forward it to the Council. Cause for the Council to get them all at one time might be confusing for some of them. Whereas if we can just go ag then we can explain because it's going to take us like about a month to get it approved. Mr. Inoue: Right. Mr. Price: I agree. Ms. Wille: We'll do a report, I think that sounds good. Mr. Onishi: And then we can do the, once we get the recommendations we can forward to the Council and they can act on it already. We can get it into the Ordinance. Mr. Price: But I'm still looking at how are we getting this out to the general public? Mr. Hussey: Why don't we make a press release by what was said in the last meeting? Really, that doesn't violate the Sunshine Law. -41 - Ms. Wille: Or at the next Council meeting and then we can also hand that and then it becomes a public document and then... Mr. Onishi: Again, as I mentioned, if can from now on, every month after we approve our minutes the Finance Committee will bring it in. That way the public can be aware of what's going on. Ms. Wille: So what would be our time frame just in terms of Council meetings? Our Council meetings are going to start getting skewed up because of all the Finance... Mr. Onishi: The first one in March we can get it out. Ms. Wille: There's March 31st Mr. Price: After our March meeting Staff(Dave): In March it's the 18tH Ms. Wille: It's the 18th. Mr. Onishi: Or we can get the old minutes on that one. For this one, we going have to get approval of the minutes. So that's going to be at the March 20tH Ms. Wille: But you have a March 31 St committee meeting right? Staff(Dave): Yes. Ms. Wille: What if we aim to do a report on March 31st? Mr. Onishi: From this meeting? Ms Wille: Then we have this meeting and can bind that and finalize that on our 20th meeting. Mr. Onishi: Well, I was going to put the other ones we had prior into the next meeting... Staff(Dave): To clarify, you're going to get the minutes from the last meeting right? Mr. Onishi: From all the previous meetings. Staff(Dave). Okay, all of them. And you'll go over them at the March 20tn? Mr. Onishi: No, no. Staff(Dave): At your meeting? Mr. Onishi: Finance. - 42 - Staff(Dave): But how are you going to approve the minutes before your March 20tH Mr. Onishi: For this meeting? Ms. Wille: No, not for this meeting. Mr. Onishi: We already approved... Ms. Wille: But we didn't approve for our last meeting. I would suggest that.... Mr. Onishi: Whatever we approved, whatever we approved is going to go on our next... Ms. Wille: I guess I don't agree. I would like it to be combined with what we did today. Mr. Onishi: No, but we got to wait until March 20th to approve these minutes. Ms. Wille: I know, so that would put it on, we would be doing it on March 31St Mr. Onishi: April. Ms. Wille: Why not March 31't? Staff(Dave): Because the agenda will be done by then. Ms. Wille: Can't we just say that we'll be submitting a report for some kind of communication. Mr. Onishi: What if we don't have quorum? No, you got to get the report first and then you can set it for the agenda. That would be the best way. And then this way we can get the past meetings, at least the public will be aware of what has been happening... Ms. Wille: That we're working. Mr. Onishi: Yes, and what we're working on. Ms. Wille- And so we would put on for, so you'll handle getting that on that next agenda? Mr. Onishi: Yes. Ms. Wille: Then after March 20th when it's approved, we'll get that on the next, what agenda would we be able to get things on? Staff(Dave). April 15. Ms. Wille: April 15. -43 - Mr. Onishi: We need to have our March 20th meeting first before it can go on the Council's agenda. Ms. Wille: So we could get it on the Council agenda for April 15. Mr. Onishi: So this meeting going on the Finance Committee's agenda for April. Mr. Price: So, we won't get anything really out to the general public about us... Ms. Wille: Until April 15. Mr. Hussey: Prior to April 15, is it possible to get the one page crisp kind of a news release regarding what we said today, in a page, priorities and the other foundation for our purpose? I'd really like to see that out there. Cause the way that we've been mushing along at this point, no wonder the press is saying what is these guys doing again? Wasting who's time? Ms. Wille: What they asked of the Council was now when did this start? Mr. Hussey: Yes. So can we get a one-pager like this out, and if it has to wait and I don't know how to do it because of the Sunshine Law but can we get a one piece of paper out there that gives a sense of purpose as to what we're doing and let the public know? Mr. Price: Can Margaret talk to Nancy Lauer and say look, this is what we want to see come up in the.... Ms. Wille: I actually put something in the North Hawaii News, in the Breeze for Waikoloa, and the Kohala Mountain News, and I write about us every month. So I actually have three papers with something that's out in the general community. Mr. Hussey: Which one of us can talk without winding up in jail? Can you and I, can I give you some of the notes I have from today.... Ms. Wille: Okay, so on this you and I work together. You give me your notes... Mr. Hussey: And if we come up with a one-pager that reflects what we said today in a nutshell and I can contribute that because I am an English major and I know how to write, and then, what would have to happen to it? I give it to you, does Fresh need to bless it or anything like that? Mr. Onishi: Nope. You guys can just send it. You know, but might be good for you to send it to Corp Counsel first. Ms. Wille: I don't do Corp Counsel. Mr. Price: She's a lawyer. -44 - Mr. Onishi: Yeah but if we go to Court, say something does happen... Ms. Wille: We're just saying our mission and our guidelines. I'm not saying, I'm not going to put in anything substance wise. Mr. Onishi: Nothing detailed. Ms. Wille: Yeah, nothing detailed. Just like our mission and sort of a general statement. Mr. Hussey: I got it here. In the next few days I will give you a regurgitation of this. Ms. Wille: I'm really glad you brought that up Bob. It's sort of this vacuum and these other things pop up. Whether it's the administration's thing, or that thing, or different... Mr. Price: I hate to pick on people but I saw what Corp Counsel did to this committee to begin with, so. It was not the best thing, after it cost us three to four months. Mr. Onishi: I think what happened was nobody really questioned them and find out really what, I guess like if we did have Stan guys on the committee it would be kind of restrictive for them. Okay, let's get a motion to adjourn. Mr. Inoue: So moved. Mr. Onishi: Meeting adjourned. ADJOURNMENT Next meeting will be held on March 20, 2014, at the County Council Room at the West Hawaii Civic Center at 10:00 a.m. Meeting adjourned at 12:55 p m. Respectfully Submitted, EUj.c� (Nines) Swawv Elizabeth (Nina) Swain Secretary/Recorder -45 -