HomeMy WebLinkAboutMIN CHARTER 2019-03-08 (2018-2020)Hawaii County Charter Commission
9th Session
West Hawai`i Civic Center
74-5044 Ane Keohokalole Highway, Building A
Kailua-Kona, Hawai`i
March 8, 2019
CALL TO The regular meeting of the Hawai`i County Charter Commission was called to
ORDER: order at 11:05 a.m., in the Council Chambers, Kailua-Kona, by Mr. Douglass
Shipman Adams, Chair.
ROLL CALL:
Present:
Mr. Douglass Shipman Adams, Chair
Ms. Jennifer Zelko-Schlueter, Vice Chair
Mr. William Carthage Bergin, Commissioner
Ms. Michelle Galimba, Commissioner (arrived at 11:34 a.m.)
Mr. Paul K. Hamano, Commissioner
Ms. Sarah H. Rice, Commissioner
Mr. Christopher John Imiloa Roehrig, Commissioner
Ms. Marcia A. K. Saquing, Commissioner
Ms. Donna Mae Springer, Commissioner
Ms. Bobby Jean Leithead Todd, Commissioner
Absent: Mr. Kevin D. Hopkins, Commissioner
Also Present: Mr. J Yoshimoto, Commission Attorney
Mr. Jon Henricks, Commission Analyst
Ms. Shannon Magnuson, Commission Secretary
Mr. Scott Ruedy, Dep. Executive Assistant to Council Chair
Ms. Muramoto, Council Services Coordinator (Hilo Courtesy Site)
CHR. ADAMS: Welcome to the 9th Session of the Charter Commission. It is
March 8th. The time is 11:05 a.m. I would ask that your communication devices
be on silent. I would ask Mr. Henricks to call roll.
MR. HENRICKS: Mr. Bergin (here), Ms. Galimba(absent), Mr. Hamano (here),
Mr. Hopkins, Ms. Leithead-Todd (here), Ms. Rice (here), Mr. Roehrig (here), Ms.
Saquing (here), Ms. Springer (here), Ms. Zelko-Schlueter (here), Chair Adams
(present).
Chair Adams you currently have nine members present.
Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
STATEMENTS
FROM THE
PUBLIC ON
AGENDA ITEMS:
DOUG SENSENIG:
The Chair directed the Commission to proceed to the next order of business,
Statements from the Public on Agenda Items.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. My understanding is that Commissioner Hopkins is
excused and that Commissioner Galimba is on her way here. At this time we will
take statements from the public on agenda items. If I could ask our Hilo side who
we have, how many do we have in Hilo?
MS. MURAMOTO: Good Morning Chair, we have four testifiers in Hilo.
CHR. ADAMS: Four, great. We have six here. Alright, we will start here in
Kona then and then we will intersperse our Hilo testifiers throughout. So if I
would ask Doug Sensenig and Debbie Hecht please to come to the table, the
testifier's table here in Kona. Again I would remind our testifiers to please make
sure that the mic is on, to please provide your name, the agenda item or items you
are speaking to, and if it is one agenda item there is a three minute limit and if it is
more than one, there is a five minute limit. Mr. Sensenig.
Proposal No. CA -18 in support and Proposal No. 27 in opposition.
MR. SENSENIG: I am Doug Sensenig of Waimea. I am a former attorney and
have been involved in land conservation since the late 1980's. As an attorney, I
drafted conservation easements and afterwards served as board Chair and
Executive Director of Coastal Mountains Land Trust in Maine and as Executive
Director of Hawai`i Island Land Trust until its merger with the land trusts on
Maui, O`ahu, and Kaua`i in 2011.
I am here to urge you to approve CA -18 because it improves the operation of the
2% land fund so that it can implement the mandate of the voters. There have
clearly been bottlenecks in the process, and CA -18 should remedy them.
As to CA -27, I urge you to reject the amendment referring to the use of eminent
domain using 2% land funds. I say it refers to the use of eminent domain because
the proposed language in subsection (h) does not add to or subtract from the
powers that the County already has. It's redundant and unnecessary. The
proposed language does, however, add a discordant note to the fund that also
needs to be considered.
Historically, the federal government has frequently utilized eminent domain,
mainly for large infrastructure projects such as damns, airports, military bases,
and interstate highways. Large-scale eminent domain has also been used to create
national parks and other conservation areas, especially during the Depression
when government wanted to move quickly to create jobs. Perhaps the most
notorious use of eminent domain for public parkland was in the creation of
Shenandoah National Park. The forcible removal of hundreds of families from
their homes and farms created bitterness that persists to this day. Eminent domain
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was further discredited when it was used in recent decades by governments to
take private land and then turn it over to private developers and the leading case
on that is Kelo v. City of New London. Eminent domain is therefore a tool that
should be used rarely and carefully. Please also note that many sources of
matching funds such as the Trust for Public Land and private foundations will not
participate in projects involving eminent domain.
As a parallel method of preserving land emerged in the United States in the
1800's that was based on the concept of willing landowners working with
nonprofits to jointly preserve land. The Trustees of Reservations in
Massachusetts is the oldest land trust in the world and an exemplar of the concept
of land conservation being a community good and community responsibility that
requires participation by as many citizens as possible. In Hawai`i it is nothing
new and we all know it as kuleana.
The popularity of the 2% fund is partly due to the people of Hawai`i Island and
their sense of kuleana. Land protection financed by the fund is currently an
entirely positive and remarkable process that enables everyone to benefit, form
the landowner who, because of a conservation easement, may be able to afford to
stay on their land, to conservation groups that have identified lands for
preservation that are critical for protection of habitat, clean water and air, and
locally grown food.
Eminent domain has no place in the 2% land fund process. The mere threat of its
use, its presence here, sours the relationships necessary for conservation success.
Of course eminent domain is necessary at times, and the County already has this
power. The amendment does nothing to extend or restrict the County's eminent
domain power, but it inserts a discordant note that needs to be avoided. Let's
keep the 2% Land Fund as an expression of our kuleana and discard amendment
CA -27.
Briefly, the proposed 10-15 Section (g) states that a conservation easement "shall
be the preferred method" for achieving the goals of the provision. Presumably,
this provision assumes that an easement is a cheaper alternative, and it maintains
ownership in private hands. That is certainly laudable. I suggest that the
provision remain as it is; the best method of protecting land is the one that is
needed in the particular and unique circumstance of each piece of property.
Outright purchase may make sense sometimes, and an easement may make sense
in others. Please reject CA -27. Thank you very much.
CHR. ADAMS: If I could ask Cherie Griffore to please come up to the table as
well. Ms. Hecht.
DEBBIE HECHT: Proposal No. CA -18 in support and Proposal No. 27 in opposition.
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
MS. HECHT: Aloha Charter Commission members. My name is Debbie Hecht.
I am the Save Our Lands Campaign Manager since 2006 for the 2% Land Fund. I
sent you the proposed changes that I have been working on with Commissioner
Sally Rice and others. Did you get it in your packet of information? I hope you
did so that we can expedite your process today. During two campaigns for the
land fund in 2006 and 2010 we heard from many people. "Why should the
County buy more land, we can't even take care of what we have?" I heard this
over and over. Council member Brenda Ford and I wrote the maintenance fund
charter amendment to empower the stewardship groups that are already caring for
the 2% lands by setting aside one quarter percent of property taxes each year in
the maintenance fund which is roughly, I just did the figures, about $800,000 a
year. These monies can be used only for stewardship of land purchased with 2%
land fund monies. I have talked to almost every group who has received a
stewardship grant. I have reviewed all the expenditures and also sent that to you,
of the maintenance fund since the beginning in 2013. I have worked with and
talked to staff over the years. I was on the PONC (Public Access, Open Space
and Natural Resources Preservation Commission) Commission. Our intent of
helping the stewardship grants has not come to fruition. Actually not at all. Only
nine percent of all the money put in the maintenance fund since 2013 has gotten
to the non -profits. That certainly wasn't what we intended.
We have been working with, so, our goal by... is to strengthen the land fund by
assisting the non -profits to care for these lands. This proposition, Proposition 18
that we have been working on, streamlines the stewardship application process,
number two, requires the application process to be administered by the
Department of Finance, they already assist one million dollar grant program that
goes to the social program non -profits. The changes require the PONC
Commission to help with recommendations and oversight. They allow the
building, installation, renting, and maintenance of toilet facilities, sheds and
structures, and they allow for creations of trails or paths. They also allow
officers, board members, and employees to be paid by the non-profit for their
work. Our goal is to strengthen the 2% land fund program by having more land
acquired, boost the purchasing power of the fund by obtaining more matching
grants, and awarding more stewardship funds to the non -profits.
We have heard from staff and the non -profits over the years and we believe these
proposed changes will help. That coupled along with a one full-time staff person
that will work only on the land fund. We object to CA -27 which brings in
eminent domain to the land fund mechanism. We object to it because it is already
being done. The conservation easements, and there was no mention about
conservation easements, it was only easements, are being used to acquire the land
at Waikapuna which should close soon. If a full-time staff person is hired to work
only on the 2% land fund program, who has real estate and conservation land
experience, they will know that. All of the staff do know this. Many of the
PONC Commissioners also are on the lookout for properties where it would be
appropriate to use conservation easements.
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When I was on the Commission we discussed the use of conservation easements
when ranking properties. I object to (h) because eminent domain is very heavy
handed and should be used only for a public good. I was a real estate broker
selling land and I believe in private property rights. When you are in a
negotiation there should be no big stick over your negotiations that eminent
domain if the property owner isn't compliant. The highest and best use is to
obtain dollar for dollar matching funds and I agree with the Trust for Public Lands
which send you in testimony. That grant funders would not grant matching funds
for properties obtained through eminent domain. I am also concerned with the
legal costs. Usually eminent domain proceedings are lengthy and expensive for
legal fees and court costs. Would these be paid out of the 2% funds and even
more diminish the purchasing power? Who would decide if and when this was
necessary? I don't want my tax money to be used for legal costs. Please say no
to CA -27. It is unnecessary and could damage the negotiation process. Thank
you for your interest. Thank you.
CHR. ADAMS: I would ask that Cherie Griffore to please come up and then also
Toni Withington please. At this time we will take our first two testifiers from
Hilo.
MS. MURAMOTO: Thank you Chair. Our first two testifiers are Cory Harden
speaking on two items on the agenda and Dwight Vicente speaking on three.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. Ms. Harden.
CORY HARDEN: Proposal No. CA -18 in support and Proposal No. 27 in opposition.
MS. HARDEN: Good morning Commissioners and thank you for your service on
the Commission. Cory Harden speaking for myself on CA -18. I support that.
That is of course for the 2% maintenance fund and if we are investing in this 2%
land, we should do it right and get the most return on our investment possible. I
don't think that has been happening in the past 10 years or so. So, since the tax
payer monies are going in to it, let's do it right and so people can really get the
benefits from the open space and a well maintained space, and places with
facilities so the public can go and enjoy these places and reap the benefits.
For CA -27 on the 2% fund regarding easements and eminent domain, I guess Mr.
Roehrig is trying to save money and that's commendable, but I think we would
need approaches other than these two. On the easements, I don't see a need for a
Charter amendment for this. It is something that probably could be done with a
memo to staff. Easements are already allowed by law and County staff know that
easements cost less than purchases and can be used when appropriate. On the
eminent domain, taking property this way would lead to resentment against the
2% fund and no doubt there would be costly legal battles and it is not clear if the
2% fund would pay for that or the other County funds. Let me see... I hope he
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will ask Corporation Counsel if the eminent domain language could be used to
condemn or take 2% lands that were acquired some time ago and mess that up,
and it also sounds like if there is eminent domain, you are not going to get
matching funds so other people... other agencies won't participate, so perhaps
Mr. Roehrig could explain a bit more the purpose of his proposal, but as is I don't
think it is a wise way to go. Thank you.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. Mr. Vicente.
DWIGHT VICENTE: Communication No. 36, Communication No. 42, and Communication No. 44,
commenting.
MR. VICENTE: Good morning. My name is Dwight Vicente. I am representing
the Hawaiian Kingdom. Communication No. 36, 42, and 44. I will start with 36.
I will tell you a little history about the... going back to 1875. There was a
Reciprocity Treaty of 1875 that never was. King Kalakaua nor did the U.S.
President sign the treaty. In 1898 the U.S. citizens here under the bogus treaty
gave away to the United States without authority, one million seven hundred fifty
thousand acres of Crown and government lands. In 1900 that lands became
known as the territory of Hawai`i. In 1920 those Crown and government lands
were rebranded as Hawaiian Home Lands. In 1959 the territory agreed by
compact to administer the Hawaiian Homes Commission Act in the name of the
state of Hawai`i over the one million seven hundred fifty thousand acres. The rest
of the Kingdom was not given away. Those leases were under King Kalakaua
bumped up from three to five years to 25 years so those lands are still under the
jurisdiction of the Hawaiian Kingdom. So the County is there to facilitate the
Hawaiian Homes Commission Act. Their taxing power is limited to lands that
rebranded as Hawaiian Home Lands not outside, and there is no land speculation
on Hawaiian Home Lands because those are only leased lands.
Communication No. 42, the Windward and Leeward Planning Commission
should be limited to the Hawaiian Home Lands only, not beyond because the
County has no jurisdiction over Crown and government lands that still fall under
the jurisdiction and sovereignty of the Hawaiian Kingdom.
Communication No. 44, these lands that you are trying to purchase are actually
Crown and government lands that still belong to the Hawaiian Kingdom because
the Hawaiian Home Lands you cannot purchase and there is no need to buy these
lands that is under the jurisdiction of the Hawaiian Kingdom because right now
they are not leased out to anyone and therefore anyone claiming to own these
lands is fraudulent.
With that I will end with the reservation of the rights of this Kingdom under the
Queen's Protest of January 17, 1893 against U.S. Minister Stevens that has yet to
make its way to the U.S. Supreme Court, Article 3, Section 2, Clause 2. Original
but limited jurisdiction. The jurisdiction is limited to the illegal acts of U.S.
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Minister Stevens. They have no jurisdiction over this Kingdom. And the other
one is the Reciprocity Treaty of 1875 that was not signed by U.S. President and
King Kalakaua. Thank you.
Oh, and another thing too before... this is Dwight Vicente again. I got a copy of
the (inaudible) Law Review that I want to make a part of the record. This is from
the U.H. (University of Hawai`i). Thank you.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. If I could ask the next two testifiers if you would
please come to the mics there. Here we have, next here in Kona we have Cherie
Griffore, I am sure I am messing up the last name.
CHERIE GRIFFORE:Proposal No. CA -18 in support and Proposal No. 27 in opposition.
MS. GRIFFORE: That's okay.
CHR. ADAMS: And then I noticed that you provided two separate documents,
but you will be speaking for... you have two items here, so you will be speaking
for a maximum of five minutes when you come up one time.
MS. GRIFFORE: Okay.
CHR. ADAMS: Alright.
MS. GRIFFORE: Hi, my name is Cherie Griffore and I wanted to say thank you
to all the Commissioners. I know this is voluntary and I know it is a lot of hard
work. You guys have a really important job. Thank you all for everything you do
for our County and our people. I am still learning the legal speak so I will let
these guys all handle it since they all know. And I am going to speak more about
the personal effects of this fund. I wanted to support CA -18, the maintenance
fund. The non -profits, let them get paid. It is hard work busting your butt out
there, cleaning and you get all dirty, but it feels good, but if you could get paid, it
would help encourage a lot more people to come out. There are a bunch of surf
contests, so the 2% land fund was used to purchase O`oma. There is the Tom
Bum Surf Contest which is for young girls and it empowers them and gives them
a sense of community. They all look forward to it every year. There is also the
Keiki Surf for the Earth contest that's coming up. And this is the one where
Karen and her husband Gary make the signs that are down at Pine Trees that
encourage everybody to clean the land and pack your trash in and out. So all
these things are really good for our community. It's the heart of our community
and it is very far outreaching. Banyans is coming up if we do need to purchase
that area it would be hopefully from the 2% fund. That has the Keiki Surf contest
from Shane Dorian, so for that surf contest you have to have good grades and you
have to be... you can't be in trouble or anything, so it is a good motivation for all
the kids to do something and they can see that some of our local surfers have
made it big, and gives them incentive to go out and do these things.
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The eminent domain, I think if it is yours, it is yours and then it will cut the
funding options, so I wanted to oppose CA -27. That was my personal testimony
and then I am also an executive member on the Surf Rider Kona Kai Ea chapter
and we have over a thousand members and we would also like to support CA -18
and oppose CA -27. Thank you.
TONI
WITHINGTON: Proposal No. CA -18 in support and Proposal No. 27 in opposition.
MS. WITHINGTON: Good morning Commissioners and thank you again for all
the work that you are doing. We really appreciate it. I represent several groups in
North Kohala. I will name them. Ka Makani 0 Kohala `Ohana, Kohala Lihikai,
Malama Wahi pana 0 Kohala, Maika`i Kamakani 0 Kohala, and Malama Kohala
Kahakai. Isn't that great, I got through it all. Thank you very much. I want to
tell you that these groups have been working with the Open Space Fund every
year since 2006. We have been working with the maintenance fund since it was
started.
We support CA -18 and we oppose CA -27 and I will explain why. Our groups
have participated in the purchase of seven projects along our coastline totaling
390 acres that has been placed in open space since we started. We have raised
20.9 million dollars from seven different sources including the County open space
fund. The groups are stewarding now for projects of coastal land including two
through the maintenance fund. The maintenance fund has needed improvement
since it was started and we have been working with the PONC to help this come
about and we believe that what you have here particularly in light of some
possible amendments you might see later today, are very much what is needed to
fix the maintenance fund and we will continue to participate in the maintenance
fund.
I'd like to speak on CA -27 which I thank you for introducing it because you bring
up a lot of... Mr. Roehrig, because you bring up some questions that are good for
the Commissioners to know about how the process of acquiring funds takes place
since we have been involved in quite a number of them and then we also have
eight projects on the current priority list for public purchase from PONC. We
deal a lot with land trust, with property owners, and with government agencies.
So, first off the provision for preferring to have conservation easements, I don't
think we need to change the wording of the current rules because that is a given.
Everybody involved in this prefers to take the easier road and in many cases it is
the easier road. But in many cases it is not possible. We have owners who do not
want to be involved in long term... in a project and so, I don't think we need to
change the rules on that. The other portion on eminent domain, that is to me and
our groups, alarming and for this reason, you heard several good reasons why it is
alarming and I am going to tell you the reasons why we are very alarmed about it.
And that is that in order to bring parcels to nomination and in order to bring
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parcels to the County Council for resolutions to purchase, in order to bring parcels
into escrow and purchase, we need to have a very cooperative relationship with
the landowners. Now we have had seven projects so far and we have eight more
on the lands right now. That means we are dealing with a lot of different
landowners and it is very much a part of what we do to make sure that we have a
cooperative relationship with landowners. To have something like eminent
domain hanging over the process would put an unnecessary impediment to the
process and it could kill deals. If a landowner feels like "oh, I am not going to
cooperate with purchasing it through open space. If you want it, you have to do
eminent domain." That is not a good attitude to have. It is not a good way for us
to deal with people who own land. We respect people who own land and we want
everyone in the process to win. We want the owners to win. We want the
community to win. We want the government to win. If we are dealing with Land
Trust, we want them to win too.
So, I ask you please don't include that eminent domain. It doesn't help the open
space fund at all. Thank you.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. If I could ask Brenda Ford and Shannon Rudolph to
come to the table here in Kona, and we will start... we will continue with our
testifiers in Hilo. Who do we have in Hilo?
MS. MURAMOTO: Thank you Chair. Two more testifiers signed up, so we
have a total of four more. Our next two will be Leslie Cole -Brooks and Tammy
Spaar, both speaking on CA -18 and 27.
CHR. ADAMS: Alright. Thank you.
LESLIE
COLE -BROOKS: Proposal No. CA -18 in support and Proposal No. 27 in opposition.
MS. COLE -BROOKS: Thank you. Good Morning. Leslie Cole -Brooks here on
my own behalf. First I wanted to say thank you to the Commission for the work
that you have done. I was really heartened to see the results of the last meeting
that CA -7 was voted down and that CA -13 and 16 weren't, did not progress. I
wish I could actually see you right now so I could really thank you. It just makes
me feel that the Commission is listening even though I know that it wasn't
unanimous, but I feel like I am heartened by that, so thank you for your work. So,
now we can get down to the task at hand which is really making sure that the
PONC fund works and it is efficient, and it does what it is meant to do.
So to CA -18, I am in strong support. I will stand on my written testimony. I
wanted to just discuss one particular aspect. I notice looking at the minutes from
the last meeting, that there was a concern about the 70 percent allocation and
some questions as to whether or not that could potentially end up having the
money, even with all of the best intentions put aside.
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CHR. ADAMS: If you could just...
MS. COLE -BROOKS: Yes?
CHR. ADAMS: I want to hear what you have to say and we are just having
difficulties hearing you here, so maybe speak up or move closer to the mic or
something because we definitely want to hear what you have to say.
MS. COLE -BROOKS: Okay. It's... It is really loud in here. Is that better over
there?
CHR. ADAMS: Yes.
MS. COLE -BROOKS: Yes, okay. Because here everyone can hear my
breathing. Okay. Okay, I will try this, so, well I hope you heard my thank you
for your hard work and I feel heartened by the decisions.
So to CA -18, I wanted to speak to the 70 percent allocation. I saw from the
minutes that there was a concern that this money might get trapped in a sense or
perhaps not utilized and so I have a recommendation for consideration as a
framework and I think that it might address many concerns by doing this. First of
all, rather than having a yearly deadline, setting up quarterly deadlines so that the
County and (C) 3 organizations could apply for funds on a quarterly basis. Then
for the 70 percent to have a sort of window. So, for instance, each quarter there
might be the first month of the quarter a (C) 3 organization or organizations could
apply for the funds and then if after that month period, there were still funds
available, the Director of Finance could then make them available to the County.
So this would accomplish several things. First it would move the money along.
My understanding is that right now it can take quite a long time for organizations
to get funds to do maintenance and in cases where there are things that are
emergencies like invasive species that were eradicated that come back or fences
down, they really need the money now. So by having a quarterly deadline and
then allocations, we can move that process along quickly. Also by having a grace
period that would allow (C) 3's to apply and to utilize those 70 percent. We can
ensure that the money didn't languish in case it wasn't used. So I just put that out
there. There is more of a description in my testimony and I think it might address
your concerns from the last meeting. To just make sure this works because we are
trying to make this more efficient.
Briefly to CA -27, I agree with everything that everyone has said. I find it a very
strange marriage and there is probably a great idea behind it but in this particular
case, to combine an eminent domain the most draconian governmental instrument
with the PONC funds... it just doesn't, it just doesn't work. I think it would
really put a sour note on any kind of matching funds and as Toni said, in a sense,
we are trying to work with landowners. We want everyone to be happy about this
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and to have a sense of either you are going to work with us or we are going to
take it anyway... I think it really strikes the wrong note and it could get the PONC
fund wrapped up in legal fees and none of us want to do that so, so, thank you
very much for your time.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. Next testifier.
TAMMY SPAAR: Proposal No. CA -18 in support and Proposal No. 27 in opposition.
MS. SPAAR: Aloha my name is Tammy Spaar and I am here to read two letters
from Lea Hong, State Director of the Trust for Public Lands.
CHR. ADAMS: I am so sorry. Please bring the mic...
MS. SPAAR: Can't hear me?
CHR. ADAMS: It's just very, can't hear you at all.
MS. SPAAR: My name is Tammy Spaar and I am here to read two letters for Lea
Hong and she is... works for the Trust for Public Land. The Trust for Public
Land opposes advancing CA -27 through initial approval. The Trust for Public
Land was originally involved in, and supported the creation of the PONC fund
through 501(c)(4) organization, the Conservation Campaign. The Trust for Public
Land thanks the staff of the PONC 2% funds and the volunteers who serve on
PONC Commission for their hard work in advancing the wishes of voters, of
Hawai`i County who voted for the 2% fund. We oppose CA -27 because the
amendment is unnecessary. The County already recognizes PONC may be used
to acquire easements and is working with the Trust for Public Land and the Ala
Kahakai Trail Association, to acquire a conservation easement over Waikapuna
and voluntary land conservation programs usually do not allow the use of
program funds for eminent domain.
The Trust for Public Land has experience with dozens of voluntary land
conservation programs at the state, federal, and local levels. For example, the
federal level, the U.S. Forestry Forest Legacy Program, U.S. Fish and Wildlife
Recovery Land Acquisition Program, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Habitat
Conservation Program, the NOAA (National Oceanic and Atmospheric
Administration) Coastal Estuary Conservation Program, the U.S. Pittman -
Robertson Program, at the conservation State programs across the nation and the
local level, the PONC program and other County programs which the Trust for
Public Land help to establish in Maui County, Hawai`i County, the City and
County of Honolulu, and all of these programs use of program funds for eminent
domain is not allowed. This is because eminent domain, the forcible
condemnation and taking of private property rights for public benefit use, is the
last resort and it should only be used as a last resort.
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The Conservation Program Handbook, a Guide for Local Government Land
Acquisition, published by Sandra Tassel, and the Trust for Public Land in 2007,
underscores that using voter approved open space funding for condemnation is
generally disfavored. Natural resource purchases especially with a voter -
approved funding source, do not usually allow condemnation. Buying property
on a strictly voluntary basis without the possibility of condemnation coloring the
negotiation requires special listening, problem solving, and financial skills.
Especially if the parcel interest transactions such as conservation easement, are
planned. The County always retains the power to condemn property if absolutely
needed, as the last resort. However, PONC funds should not be tapped for forced
condemnation. Rather, community dialog and win-win scenarios should be
pursued with PONC funding to conserve Hawai`i natural and cultural resources.
And my second letter is the Trust for Public Land supports advancing CA -18
through initial approval. The Trust for Public Land was originally involved in,
and supported the creation of PONC fund through its 501(c)(4) organization, the
Conservation Campaign. The Trust for Public Land thanks the staff of the PONC
2% fund and the voters who serve on the PONC Commission for their hard work
in advancing the wishes of the voters of Hawai`i County who voted for the 2%
fund. We appreciate Commissioner Rice's introduction of CA -18, responding to
community concerns regarding needed improvements to the administration of
PONC maintenance funds. This proposal would allow PONC Commission to
review and make recommendations on stewardship grants, allocate 70 percent
maintenance funds for stewardship grants directly to community organizations,
define the stewardship grant process, and allow funds to be used for the
construction of small buildings, maintenance equipment, educational purposes,
and restroom facilities. The construction or maintenance of trails or paths, and
wages, salaries, for staff conducting the maintenance activities. Thank you.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you very much. Do we have any other testifiers in Hilo?
MS. MURAMOTO: Chair Adams, we have two more.
CHR. ADAMS: Okay, thank you. If they could come up to the table in Hilo that
would be great. In Kona, first of all I would just like to welcome Commissioner
Galimba. We can start with Ms. Ford.
BRENDA FORD: Proposal No. CA -17 and CA -18 in support and Proposal No. 27 in opposition.
MS. FORD: Thank you very much. I am Brenda Ford. I am a former Council
member and I am also the co-author of the PONC fund and the PONC
maintenance fund that we now have in the Charter as you know to protect those
funds. I am going to speak first though on the disaster and emergency fund that
Ms. Leithead-Todd is putting into the Charter. Thank you. I commended you the
last time for this and I submitted an amendment that didn't change anything but
streamlined some of the wording. There is a lot of repetitive wording in that
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
section, and I submitted that maybe three or four weeks ago and asked that it be
delivered. Just to streamline it, not to change the impact and I hope that you will
also take care of the budget stabilization fund in the same manner, and I hope the
Commission on both of these will raise the amount required to be put into these
two funds to something reasonable. At least two million, possibly five million
dollars a year.
I want to support CA -18. I have spoken to you about this before so I am not
going to go into a lot of detail about it, but we have learned a lot in the last 13
years about the needs of the PONC fund and its maintenance fund. I will tell you
as a Council member, I was able to purchase a piece of land on Ali`i Drive and
create the Kipapa Park using the PONC funds. It is a beautiful little piece of land
right across from the shoreline. Unfortunately on the shoreline of Ali`i Drive
there is very little public access and it is very important that sometimes we buy
entire parcels of land because developers do not want us local, non -local,
whatever we are, we are all here together, they don't want "us" down on that
shoreline when they buy land. You will notice that all the hotels do their very
best to exclude the public from getting in there. As an example, the Mauna Kea
Hotel has I think 20 or 25 spaces allotted to the public and after those are filled,
the public is not allowed to come in, only their guests, and that happens every
single time.
During my terms of office, my staff and I went down to Ali`i Drive and we
walked every single public access six feet wide to the shoreline. They were
almost always blocked. One in particular, I will never forget had boulders, three,
four, five feet in circumference at the trail. So you actually had to climb over the
boulders to get down to the shoreline, or you had to walk underneath the
substructure of the house that elevated it above the ocean area in order to get
down. I mean I had to trespass on somebody's property instead of using the
easement. These types of things happen all the time when you have an easement
and somebody doesn't want you on the property, and it is notorious, notorious
that this occurs when developers take over. We have finally got O`oma purchased
to stop that from happening and it will happen again and again, and that is why
we usually have to buy an entire parcel of land.
The PONC Commission has the right to do an easement. They have the right to
buy a portion of land, or they can buy the whole parcel. Whatever is appropriate
for what we are trying to do. So, I do not support CA -27. I don't like eminent
domain. It just makes people very, very, very, angry and an easement that is only
a few feet wide even if you make it 20 feet wide, remember they may let you have
an easement to the shoreline but then they will block the shoreline because that is
what they want to do. They don't want you down there on "their land" even if it
is public land, and I have been a witness to that myself. Excuse my voice.
So, I support CA -18. I think that is a great thing. I support CA -17 with the
amendments to just streamline the wording in it, and the budget stabilization fund
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
which is not on your agenda, but 27 is unnecessary. The County already has the
right to do eminent domain and we do that if there is a public safety issue that is
very commonly used in public safety issues. If we have to take a piece of land to
widen a road, to make sure that people aren't killing each other as they come
around a curve or something. It is normal. Here is the other problem though.
Eminent domain is a lawsuit in a court of law. It is costly. And yes, we have
attorneys on our staff that can file those lawsuits but the Mayor is trying to gut the
PONC fund money as we speak because he says he doesn't have much money and
then we are going to wind up having to use our attorneys to file these lawsuits. It
is non judicious use of our money. Please do not pass CA -27. Thank you.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you.
SHANNON
RUDOLPH: Proposal No. CA -18 in support and Proposal No. 27 in opposition.
JAMES AKAU:
MS. RUDOLPH: Aloha, thanks for coming to Kona. I just want to reiterate
everyone else's voice here. I am in a hurry so I am just going to say that I support
CA -17, CA -22, and CA -18, and I don't support CA -27, eminent, willy-nilly
eminent domain makes me pretty uncomfortable. So thank you.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you very much. Here in Kona I'd like to ask Susan
Dursin and Bimo Akiona to come to the table, and we will turn to Hilo testifiers.
Who do we have in Hilo please?
MS. MURAMOTO: Our last two testifiers are Deborah Ward speaking on three
items and James Akau speaking on one.
CHR. ADAMS: Alright. Thank you. Please come, please go ahead.
Proposal No. CA -18 in support.
MR. AKAU: Aloha. Oh, it's loud. Can you folks hear me?
CHR. ADAMS: It's difficult so you will need to speak into the mic. Thank you.
MR. AKAU: Okay. Pardon my volume everybody here in Hilo. Aloha pau kahi
a pau, o James Akau ko'u inoa a Ka`u. Aloha everybody, each and every one of
you. My name is James Akau. I am from the district of Ka`u and today I will be
speaking on behalf of Na Mamo 0 Kawa, our 501(c)(3) Kali community based
Hawaiian non-profit and first and foremost, I want to mahalo, mahalo, mahalo the
PONC Committee, the County Commissioners, Parks and Recreation, and the
Department of Finance for all of the support over the years and he mea nui, I want
to express my gratitude on behalf of our organization and our community for all
the support. I am here today to speak in support of CA -18 and there are a number
of reasons that I support and our organization supports CA -18 for initial approval.
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
One is the restroom facilities are a major issue on the land that we steward which
is Kawa, it's the Kawa property down in Ka`u. It is 776 acres acquired in 2008
and 2011. Yeah, and the issue of open defecation is pretty bad at this point. The
people who are camping and people who are coming down just for the day, that is
a huge issue. The only bathrooms on the entire property are at the Hilo gate at the
entrance, which is if you are at the coast anywhere from 20 minutes to a half hour,
which a lot of people don't make that trip and "we", our organization, pick up the
t.p. (toilet paper), so I can speak on behalf of myself and all the people that clean
up the mess down there, that it is a huge, huge, issue and it is not something that
we want to continue to address on our own. We support the funds being allocated
or appropriated or approved for the acquisition or the use of renting a lua and we
eventually want a lua that's wheelchair accessible, and we want that at the end of
the gravel if at all possible to reduce the walk time from the beach to five minutes.
And we also are lobbying for composting toilets, not on the beach but off the trail,
right before you hit the beach, if we could get two of those. And ideally if we
could also get another lua or composting toilet at the other side of... where the
public easement is, I think that would help to resolve a lot of the issues with
human waste management down at Kama. I think that was my bell but yeah, we
also support the use of the funds for structures, all of our equipment is susceptible
to theft down there. We don't keep a lot of it down there but the few pieces of
equipment we have down there luckily everyone and the good will of the people,
no one has committed any theft, but it puts the strain and the burden on all of the
board members and the contractors to host all of the equipment which is a lot to
ask of people who are you know for the board, not getting paid. Taking up space
in their house and to ask you know, special request to the contractors to house our
equipment. I think it is okay but it is not the best option and it complicates our
field operations and our work days and it adds extra burden on everybody that I
think we can resolve with having like a ship Matson container that is secure down
at the property.
We support the streamlining of the process. We have waited this past grant to be
executed, we waited 13 months and luckily we have a lot of people in our
organization including myself, who are skilled enough to acquire other grants
where we can hold and pay for the cost of the maintenance through other grants
and be creative with how we use our funds, but I don't think that it is a successful
recipe especially for other non -profits who may be don't have those skills or if we
fall on harder times and are not able to acquire grants from other organizations,
then it puts us in a bind and you know, would cause our organization to have to
stall on a lot of our projects and so, I support the streamlining of the process
however that looks. You know, if the Department of Finance takes the kuleana
then I think that that is a good option, whatever it takes to streamline the process.
I also support hiring somebody to...
CHR. ADAMS: Please summarize.
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
MR. AKAU: just manage the PONC grants. We have been working with Reid
Sewake who is awesome but it is not within his job. We worked with a lot of
people and it is not their job. They take extra time out of their day to help us go
through the process and get a grant educated, and I think having someone on staff
that just deals with that is going to make a huge improvement for...
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you sir.
MR. AKAU: Folks like Potter down in Waipi`o, folks like us and other future
beneficiaries of the program. We do it for the love. We are going to do it
regardless, but to have stability...
CHR. ADAMS: We appreciate your response. Thank you. Thank you sir.
MR. AKAU: Is someone cutting me off? Okay, I thought someone was cutting
me off. Umm, but yeah, we support that. I wasn't familiar with the CA -27 but in
hearing other people's testimonies...
CHR. ADAMS: Sir, if you could, sir, if you could please summarize. You have
gone over your time.
MR. AKAU: Oh, okay. Yeah, we support, we support CA -18 and I will just end
it there. Thank you so much for not killing and slashing the PONC fund. Thank
you.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. Next testifier please.
DEBORAH WARD: Proposal No. CA -9 and CA -18 in support and Proposal No. 27 in opposition.
MS. WARD: Aloha Kakahiaka. I apologize for the loud sound here. I hope you
can hear me there. Is that correct? Can anyone there hear me?
CHR. ADAMS: Yes.
MS. WARD: Thank you. Aloha, my name is Deborah Ward and I am Chair of
the Moku Loa Group of Sierra Club and we have close to a thousand members on
this island. Thank you very, very, much for your service to our community. I
appreciate your volunteer time and the effort that it takes to do the work you are
doing. Thank you for helping us strengthen the PONC allocation to make
protecting our natural, cultural, and agricultural resources before they, before they
are developed for private gain. I don't know, this is very noisy here.
You are well aware that the public has demonstrated support of this program
through three separate votes, and we encourage you to strengthen not weaken the
program. We know what can be improved so let's improve it and not hobble it.
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
We oppose ambiguous language proposed by Commissioner Hopkins and we
support improving the clarity of the amendment by substituting the following
language: "pay for the salary, wages, and benefits of one staff member dedicated
only to administering the activities contained within this section and section 10-16
of this charter." It needs to be clear that a single staff member in the Finance
Department shall be funded and designated with the sole responsibility to
administer the PONC activities. The PONC fund should not be used for non-
dedicated activities related to the Finance Department.
We also support CA -18 as amended for initial approval and to date, less than nine
percent of the maintenance fund money has supported the work of local non-
profits. The balance has been allocated to off island consultants and these are the
reasons why we are proposing these amendments. The application process will be
administered by the Department of Finance, will streamline the stewardship
application process, and speaking on a personal note since I have not discussed
this with members, the quarterly application process proposed by Leslie Cole -
Brooks may well be an effective solution for our non -profits. We would also like
to allow the building, installing, and renting of maintenance toilet facilities, sheds,
and structures. Allow for the creation of trails and paths, and allow officers,
board members, and employees to be paid by the non-profit for their work with
fiscal oversight by the designated Finance Department staff.
Finally, we oppose CA -27. The proposed section (g) would be duplicative.
Conservation easements are a regular part of the acquisition process currently and
added language to the Charter is not needed, and proposed section eight, I am
sorry, introduce a threat to landowners that would not reflect the need to acquire
land strictly for public health and welfare. Eminent domain actions would open
the County to lawsuits and the PONC fund should not be used to defend the
County in such litigation. We should be making a maximum effort to obtain
matching funds to purchase the lands at a negotiated price rather than extracting
the resource by taking it. Eminent domain is highly unpopular and might cause
more harm than any possible benefit. So in conclusion, please support our
proposed language in CA -9, support CA -18, as proposed by Commissioner Rice,
and do not approve CA -27. Mahalo nui.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. Alright, here in Kona can I have Susan Dursin and
Bimo Akiona please go ahead Ms. Dursin.
SUSAN DURSIN: Proposal No. CA -18 in support.
MS. DURSIN: I'd like to add my voice to thank all of you for your service. It is
extremely important. This opportunity is one that we really need to take
advantage of. So much has been learned over the years of administering the
PONC and especially the maintenance, that these changes so many of them in
CA -18 are really important to the fund and I would say that moving the
administration into the Finance Department is of greatest importance because they
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
CHRISTOPHER
DEAN:
do understand the administration of grants to non -profits, and I also think that
they will help in... help the non -profits in their application process. There is a
slight change that says that the application needs to be delivered to both the
Finance Department and to the Commission, the PONC Commission. I think that
would be very helpful because it is not an easy process to make those
applications. There are a lot of hoops to jump through and so, I think having both
cooperating and being able to help people through the process would be excellent.
A lot of it has been learned, all the additions that are in part (g) trails, toilets, all of
that is extremely important too. And then, finally, the payments, I know that
people have said to me "you know, is this really necessary, is this a good use of
funds?" And it seems to me that it is because it's hard to keep a program going, a
non-profit when you are going down cleaning up places, it is hard work and it
takes a lot of planning besides, and I think the consistency that would be enabled
by actual payment to people would be very useful and so altogether I am saying
that I hope you will support CA -18. It is really our opportunity to make use of
what we have learned. Thank you.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. Sir go ahead.
Proposal No. CA -17 and CA -18 in support and Proposal No. 27 in opposition.
MR. DEAN: Thank you very much. My name is Christopher Dean. I am an
authorized representative of the Environmental Caucus of the Democratic Party of
Hawai`i and we would like to say thank you very much for all of your time and
hard work on protecting Hawai`i's dwindling and beautiful natural wilderness
habitat. We support CA -18 and CA -17, and we oppose CA -27. I would like to
say individually that the protection of our dwindling natural resources,
particularly the coastlines from development is just critical and we are going to
have to face that there is a never ending push from the private sector, from people
who want to like turn a profit by developing our beautiful land, is never going to
end and I encourage you all to stay strong and protect nature and to protect the
rights of the citizens of Hawai`i. Thank you very much.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you very much. Do we have any testifiers left in Hilo?
And I had one testifier here, Mr. Akiona that I am not seeing. Mr. Akiona? Yes
Ma'am?
CHERIE GRIFFORE: He had to leave really quick, but he just asked to keep the
open spaces for the County residents to be able to recharge and rejuvenate.
APPROVAL OF The Chair directed the Commission to proceed to the next order of business,
MINUTES: Approval of Minutes.
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. Seeing no other testifiers from the public, we will
then move on to approval of minutes of February 2019, I move to obtain a motion
to approve those minutes.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: So moved.
CHR. ADAMS: I am sorry (inaudible).
MR. HENRICKS: Thank you.
CHR. ADAMS: It has been moved by Commissioner Zelko-Schlueter. Is there a
second?
MS. RICE: Second.
CHR. ADAMS: Seconded by Commissioner Rice. Is there any discussion on the
February 8, 2019 minutes? Seeing no discussion all in favor of the motion please
signify by saying "aye" (aye). Any opposed? The motion passes 10-0 with
Commissioner Hopkins excused.
Vote on Motion Commissioner Zelko-Schlueter moved to approve the
To Approve Minutes: minutes of January 25, 2019. Seconded by Commissioner
(Approved) Rice and carried by the following voice vote:
Ayes: Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Hamano,
Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd,
Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10
Noes: None.
Absent: Commissioners Hopkins - 1
Excused: None.
CHR. ADAMS: At this point I would just like to ask a question that was raised to
us by our Commission Secretary. We receive in our hard copy, we receive in the
green folder, we get a hard copy of the minutes. Is that something that you all
would like to continue having that is really the question, so needed or not needed?
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: I do use it. I refer back to it during meetings. I find
those minutes to be very helpful. Thank you.
CHR. ADAMS: Okay. Let me do it this way then, if you don't see that you have
a requirement for them then please get with Shannon to let her know so she can
manage that.
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
COMMUNI-
CATIONS:
MR. HENRICKS: Yeah, I don't think it is really an option. I mean it is part of
your board packet that needs to be provided to ensure that you have all the
materials that are required by law.
CHR. ADAMS: We are obviously going to get them and we get them
electronically so we do have the opportunity to. Alright, let's move on to
Communications.
The Chair directed the Commission to proceed to the next order of business,
Communications.
CHR. ADAMS: We have Communication No. 7.9 Response to request for
proposed amendments/recommendations Board of Ethics. So this was a
communication that came from the Hawai`i County Board of Ethics. It did not
make it, well, they have a proposed Charter amendment as well that is a part of
this. Does anyone have any comments on this particular...
MS. RICE: Yes.
CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Rice.
MS. RICE: I read this having practically no background so I just, I have more of
a question. It seemed based on what they are requesting is that it is moving into a
more regular position than it has been in the past. I don't have a problem with
that. I just need someone to give me some background and feedback on if...
because it seems to be that if it is having, if you look at the first paragraph, the
underlined section, "the board shall adopt its rules of procedure having the force
and effect of law as will be necessary to provide for the enforcement of the code
of ethics." I gather that in the past they could make recommendations but they do
not have any real clout so to speak.
CHR. ADAMS: If Mr. Yoshimoto would like to address that particular question.
MR. YOSHIMOTO: Okay, how much detail, Mr. Chairman, do you want me to
get into? Because this is not a proposal. It is just a communication.
CHR. ADAMS: So the question I think had to do with is this a change, you know
what I will take care of it because I was on the board of ethics. We are not talking
about this particular thing that they have here except that your question was that it
seems like it is a change. In their rules, in their current rules as a matter of fact, it
states that their rules have the force and effect of law already. This would be a
change in the sense that it would move it from the rules into the Charter, but all
rules that commissions, boards and commissions make unless it specifically states
otherwise have the force and effect of law already, so this is just a statement that
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
they have decided to ask to see if, obviously they are not making the proposal it
would have to be made by a Commissioner and so this would be to clarify I guess
would be the best way that I could characterize it. Again, that is my personal
opinion.
MS. RICE: Okay and then on the... they are allowed to, in the rules impose civil
fines and this would be the same thing?
CHR. ADAMS: I will let Mr. Yoshimoto take that one.
MR. YOSHIMOTO: As a background, back in 2008, the Council passed an
ordinance that provided for fines to be issued by the Board of Ethics. Part of the
concern that the Board of Ethics had currently... as currently comprised is that the
Charter does not explicitly provided for a fine provision. If you look at the Board
of Ethics provisions in the Charter, it does state that the Council can pass by
ordinance any provisions that it chooses to do so. So, basically the board is
asking for what was passed by the Council previously to be placed in the Charter
so there is explicit consistency.
MS. RICE: Got it. Thank you. I understand.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you.
MS. TODD: Mr. Chair.
CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Todd.
MS. TODD: I also served on the Board of Ethics and also served as, later as
Deputy Corporation Counsel advising the board, and a lot of this was moved to
try and give the board a little bit more authority similar to the way the
Commission on O`ahu is able to issue fines and part of the problem is that the
way the Board of Ethics was constructed earlier is that they basically could say
that somebody is in violation and issue an opinion, but then it would then be up
like in the case of a Council member, it would be up to the Council to determine
whether they were going to impose any fines, obligations, etc. on the Council
member with other officials it would depend on like maybe the Mayor would
have to review a department head, and so the idea was to try and give the Board
of Ethics a little bit more teeth so that they would not have to rely on another
entity. There has been voluntary compliance and there have been a couple of
occasions when they have found that the most public ones have been where there
have been a misappropriation or misuse of public funds by a Council member for
what has been kind of determined to be kind of a campaign or a non -County
purpose and in those cases they have issued opinions and those Council members
have repaid the County those funds, but they want to make sure that they are not
reliant on the Council voting whether they are going to censure one of their own
members or the Mayor deciding whether he is going to censure somebody he has
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
appointed to office and this was also you know, we had public input that they
wanted to give more teeth because people were seeing that it seemed like the
Board of Ethics on O`ahu had much more power than the one here and they
wanted to try and make them a little bit more independent so the County Council
agreed and passed it but you know this is trying to put it in the Charter so that it is
very clear as to their authority and the difference you might notice on one section
where it talks about advisory and formal opinions is... it is very useful to
subsequent boards and to the public to be able to read the opinions issued by the
Board of Ethics because it gives you guidance on what is or is not a violation and
you in some cases the names have to be redacted because you don't want to get
into privacy, because sometimes it is employees asking "can I start a business and
the type of business that I want to start, does this conflict with my job, is there a
conflict of interest?" And so it is useful for other employees if they can see that
there has been an opinion rendered and it also puts it into one place where you can
eventually have it, where you can google it, you can go to a County website, and
so there is two different types of opinions so they want to clarify that they can
publish both so long as they are protecting the privacy of the individuals. That's
all. Thank you.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. Any other discussion on this communication?
Alright. Thank you. We also have then, Communication No. 12.2 which has to
do with the Proposed Schedule for Six Island -Wide Public Hearings; Dates,
Times, and Locations. At this point I would like to indicate that it is the plan to
provide a notice, a public notice of the dates and times and locations following
this meeting. So if I could, in the Communication, we note that we will be
starting, we will be having our first public hearing on March 25th which is a
Monday and that would be at the Old County Courthouse in Kohala which is I
believe in Kapa'au near the King Kamehameha statue. The next public hearing
will be that Friday which is the 29th and that would be in Na`alehu at the
Community Center, and then we have four hearings in a row Monday, Tuesday,
Wednesday, Thursday. Monday, April... I can't remember which date it is, do
you have it in front of you? April 1st? Okay, and that one is, that's right, that
will be in Pahoa and then April 2nd in Honoka`a, the third will be here actually,
and then the fourth will be in the Hilo Chambers and then that would be the final
one. All of those are designed to be at 6:00 p.m. I just want to make sure that we
are all okay with that.
Yes, Commissioner Roehrig. What would you like to do?
MR. ROEHRIG: I don't know about the rest of you. I guess I wasn't at the
meeting when this was decided on. For me it is dangerous to drive at night. I
don't know if people, the general public want to come at 6:00 p.m. after they get
through work at 4:30 p.m. or 5:00 p.m. and then they don't eat dinner and they
come to the public meeting and then (inaudible) at whatever time, I don't know...
I wouldn't mind seeing some of these on Saturday. Sunday is probably not a
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
good day, but Saturday, or the other, have these earlier. I am not going to be able
to make some of these. It is up to you folks.
CHR. ADAMS: Any discussion? When we previously had the conversation...
MS. SAQUING: I just had a question on perhaps historical success on the
community meetings. Is that a good time for the community at 6:00 p.m.? Have
you tried an earlier time, what kind of response did you get if you did?
MR. HENRICKS: That is an excellent question that I have no answer to. It is
really hard to determine the best time for the most amount of people in any given
community on any given day. We just do the best we can.
CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Todd.
MS. TODD: Usually the reason you do public hearings in the evenings is to try to
accommodate people that can't come during the day because they have to take off
time from work or there are other obligations. So, historically I can't speak for
the Charter Commission, but I know on the County Council, when we have gone
to public hearing, we have done it in the evenings. I think we have... I can't
recall if we have done stuff on Saturdays. Saturdays it is difficult because the
staff that supports the Council basically works Monday through Friday so if you
are going to schedule stuff on a weekend then you have to accommodate and
require staff to come in overtime or on their days off and that is why we
historically haven't done it on the weekends. That would be something that staff
would have to take a look at, but I do want to note that thank you in terms of the
scheduling for avoiding most of the...my camping trip with my family in March
and that it is early enough that it is not impacting Merrie Monarch cause those are
things that would be very difficult.
I don't know if you would look at because evenings are overtime anyway,
whether you would look at 4:30 p.m.? I know that as someone who has run for
office, we frequently moved the hour of the campaign dinner up earlier to try and
take care of seniors who don't like to drive at night, so we would start at 4:30.
Sometimes we would start at 5:00 p.m. and you know for most of us that is a
question, I don't think that we are, If we are able to make it at 11:00 a.m. or at
1:30 p.m., I would imagine that for the Commission that we could make it at 4:30
p.m. or 5:00 p.m. and then that would take care of some of the concerns and
would also maybe allow people... some people will drift in later. You know, 6:00
p.m. is fine with me, but I think it is a question that Mr. Roehrig has brought up
that maybe should be addressed is whether in some areas we should look at other
options. Obviously I don't think we could do it at 6:00 p.m. on Saturdays that
would be very difficult. It is also difficult to get facilities on the weekends
because if you look at the list of facilities, a lot of these, like you take the gym,
the community center, a lot of times they have weekend functions at those
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
facilities and so that is a whole other issue in terms of scheduling on different
days, so... because they have a lot of daytime activities. Thank you.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you Commissioner Todd.
Commissioner Rice.
MS. RICE: I am wondering if carpooling would help Commissioner Roehrig.
Because then he wouldn't have to drive at night if that is an issue. I have been
very kindly allowed to travel with Commissioner Bergin so time is not
(inaudible).
CHR. ADAMS: Okay. I appreciate that comment as well. So, let me just run
through this first of all. So we identified the locations, we had asked for
Commissioner, we had given Commissioners the opportunity if you had some
specific places, we had given you the opportunity to provide those, and we had
also heard from Council members about suggested places. I would indicate that
there, we have had some communications, some of you have seen them where
there had been a question about Waimea, so for Kohala we are going to be in
Hawi, I mean, we are going to be in Kapa`au, and for Hamakua, we will be in
Honoka`a. So we appreciated the offer from Waimea, but those seem to be places
that made sense to provide us with places that would be available for those
districts as well. So, not seeing anybody having any issues with the locations, the
dates themselves we tried to stay away from Saturdays. That was based on
conversations that we had here as members of the Commission, the 11 of us, and
then on the times, the times we have talked about, but I would tell you that the
times was based on, the time of six o'clock was based on conversations that I and
the staff had when we were looking at precisely the question that Commissioner
Saquing asked Mr. Henricks which is "when are you going to get the most
people" kind of idea, trying to do it you know mid-day didn't seem to be, mid-day
can be great for some folks, but it is very difficult to folks that are working. Six
o'clock you would think would be able to provide for a lot of folks but we also
understand the imposition that it is on those that don't drive necessarily and so the
impacts on those folks as well. I am open to changing that time. You know,
maybe it is a mid to late afternoon start, I wonder on the impact on the logistics of
that, so if we said something like three o'clock or four o'clock in these various
locations, would that... I would like some discussion on the impacts that that
would have.
Yeah, Commissioner Saquing.
MS. SAQUING: I think again to honor our working community who are unable
to attend these hearings, that we should look at maybe a timeframe of maybe
starting at 5:30 p.m., kind of a happy medium between five and six, to allow them
to attend, to allow the Commissioners to get to and from and also allow time for
the meeting to actually exist, so that is my suggestion is starting it at 5:30 p.m.
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
CHR. ADAMS: Okay. Thank you.
Commissioner Bergin.
MR. BERGIN: First of all, for the fact that we have had that schedule in our
hands for 60 days I think was a great advantage at least to me because that gave
some long-term planning with those dates that were chosen so I am comfortable
with that and I am not uncomfortable with six o'clock, but I would be a five
o'clock or five thirty approach to it, but any earlier than that, then I think we are
really getting away from people that do work and won't be able to attend.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. Alright, thank you all for your comments on that.
We will, my plan then would be to talk to the staff, but probably go with the five
o'clock start and that gives us a little bit of time. We can work if there are issues
with folks that are having, are concerned about driving or that kind of thing, then
we can definitely work that out. I would also, I have a note here just to note that
we have a budget if you would like to stay you know in lodging, particularly you
know on the second week right, where we are going to be over...
MR. ROEHRIG: Does Na` alehu have a Hilton?
CHR. ADAMS: I think it does, the last time I checked. It is only an hour and a
half away. Right. But if lodging is a concern, or something that you would be
interested in doing, we have a budget that can support that. We knew that that
was something that would be a possibility as well, so...
MR. ROEHRIG: Can we pay for Uber?
CHR. ADAMS: If you can get somebody to Uber you and then you put the
reimbursement for it, I would approve it. Alright. Okay, I also would note that
we have gone back and forth on trying to figure out how we can record. So I
would note that there have been requests for us to make available these meetings
on some type of streaming basis, so let me just make this comment for the record.
As a government organization, we are, we need, we have a requirement and
obligation to abide by Americans with Disability Act, the ADA, so our ability to
use things like Facebook streaming, we don't get to do that right? The, and then,
the ability to have other organizations that have the, whether they are non-profit
or they are commercial and they have the ability to do that kind of work, we are
not going to go ask. That would be soliciting them so we can't do that. But if
somebody decided they wanted to come to us and said "hey we would like to
televise this or record it for streaming later on our video site", you know just as
we do in a lot of cases, we would say yes more than likely.
So, I would just like to make it... that we are not trying to keep people out from
having access to the information that will be available, nobody is going to be able
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
to be on a video teleconference with the exception of both our, I believe our Kona
and our Hilo sites will be available because we have the technology. Am I wrong
about that?
MR. HENRICKS: That's a possibility that we had talked about, that we wanted
to include in the notice, that the sites would be available both for Commissioners
and the public so that if Hilo Commissioners wanted to attend the Kona public
hearing they would do it virtually, they being in the Chambers. That can be
helpful, but also it allows for more opportunities for people to participate, the
public.
CHR. ADAMS: That's right. I would note that I have heard comment that if we
only make it available for Kona and Hilo or just Hilo in that situation, that we are
perhaps not providing the same opportunities for our other districts and it
wouldn't be potentially fair is the comment that I have heard.
MR. ROEHRIG: Would you do Waimea?
MR. HENRICKS: We are not currently scheduled to appear in Waimea.
CHR. ADAMS: Is the technology?
MR. HENRICKS: I can barely hear what you are saying first of all, and secondly
I would need to, if you are asking... what is your question?
MR. ROEHRIG: The Council office, whatever they call it in Waimea, can that be
used for these public hearings or for me to go.
MR. HENRICKS: To do what? For you to participate?
MR. ROEHRIG: You could go and the public.
MR. HENRICKS: Any of the locations other than Hilo are not going to have any
type of video capabilities or internet capabilities at all.
MR. ROEHRIG: Where?
MR. HENRICKS: Any of the locations other than Hilo and Kona.
MR. ROEHRIG: Waimea has one right now.
MR. HENRICKS: Any of the public hearing locations other than Hilo and Kona
are not going to have the ability to do any type of video technology. Are you
asking about you attending either the Hilo or Kona or both hearings from
Waimea?
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
MR. ROEHRIG: Correct.
MR. HENRICKS: That is a possibility, but that would require some coordination
and cooperation from the staff there.
CHR. ADAMS: Okay. So, with the Commission's consensus, the Vice -Chair
and I will be meeting with the staff and we will solidify the final information.
Again, the idea would be five o'clock start at those locations with the possibility,
we still need to make sure that the logistics work, the possibility of allowing Hilo
and Kona to have a VTC (Video Teleconferencing Capability) capability,
meaning that folks could be on either of those sites on Wednesday and Thursday,
the third and the forth of April. And then for the purposes of transportation and or
lodging, I can prevail upon Shannon to kind of run that if you have a desire to do
something like that or you need some assistance with transportation in particular
then please let's work through our Commission Secretary to make sure that we
can manage that, thank you. Any other discussion on those communication?
Alright, thanks.
Communication No. 15, Articles I -XVI of the Charter, any discussion? Alright
thank you.
UNFINISHED The Chair directed the Commission to proceed to the next order of
BUSINESS: business, Unfinished Business.
CHR. ADAMS: Let's move on to Unfinished Business. Communication No. 3:
Formation of Ad Hoc Committees. I would just note that I will be speaking with
our staff to talk about our rules that does indicate the development, or the
establishment of an ad hoc committee when we get to the point where we are
beginning to write our report of findings and our proposals for the Council, for the
County Council. And so, it does call, it does indicate that an ad hoc committee
can be established to support that and so it is not something that we need to do
right now, but it may be something that comes up in the future. Alright, any other
discussion on that communication, on that Unfinished Business Item No. 1?
Alrighty, moving on to Item No. 2, Communication No. 35 which transmits CA -
18 as amended, for initial approval. The Proposal to Amend Section 10-16,
Public Access, Open Space, and Natural Resources Preservation Maintenance
Fund, to transfer administrative duties to the Department of Finance and add
permissible uses of the fund, and establish a base amount that must be reserved
for awards to stewardship organizations; as submitted by Commissioner Rice. I
would note that we postponed our consideration of this Charter amendment
proposal. There is a motion on the floor that has been made by Commissioner
Rice and seconded by Commissioner Zelko-Schluter to pass Charter Amendment
No. 18 as amended on initial approval. I believe our first order of business is to
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
bring this item out of postponement or do we just start it? We are good to go?
We don't have to do that, only if we were tabled would we have to do something?
Eventually I will get this.
Alright, so where we are right now, is that if I recall, we were considering item
(h), so let me make sure I get this all correct. So it would have been 10-16 (h), the
amendment that you have there, you had an amendment that we were working on
at the time and then you and the individual, I believe it was Commissioner
Hopkins, pulled back your motion and your second so that we could then enter a
postponement.
MS. RICE: Correct.
CHR. ADAMS: Alright, so Commissioner Rice, the floor is yours.
MS. RICE: I would like to make a motion to delete (h) and after we go forward I
will explain why.
CHR. ADAMS: So you are, just for a point of clarification, you are amending
your motion. You have a motion on the floor to pass CA -18, so you are amending
that motion by deleting (h) out of your proposal?
MS. RICE: Correct, and then in addition, can I do another one or do I wait?
CHR. ADAMS: If it is going to be a replacement.
MS. RICE: It is an addition.
CHR. ADAMS: It's an addition to (h) or it is a...
MS. RICE: No. It is a different...
CHR. ADAMS: Right. So, I would just suggest, let's just take care of (h) real
quick. Is there a second to that amendment? It has been seconded by
Commissioner Galimba. Alright, discussion on that amendment.
MS. RICE: Okay. I spoke to several former and present County staff members at
great length who have worked and are presently working with Public Access,
Open Space, and Natural Resources Preservation Maintenance Fund and they
were not in favor of setting a specific money percent in the Charter for the
stewardship groups. When a property is acquired, the County has certain
obligations that require funding to develop and maintain the property for use and
some of those obligations are included in the funding agreement if monies come
from say the federal government or some other outside source, and it can include
requirements such as protection for endangered species. Also, each stewardship
group's project budget is unique to that group and its proposal and in some
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
instances there may not be a stewardship group available, or the stewardship
group organizes itself later in the process which means the County has to maintain
the property in the meantime. Or there may be several stewardship groups all
functioning at one time requiring more money, therefore, it is more practical to
keep flexibility in the fund so the PONC can recommend and the Finance
Department can allocate the funds depending on the property requirements and
the stewardship budget request. The stewardship budgets are very important and
we have in this already addressed, making those budgets more complete.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. Is there any other discussion on this amendment?
Alright, seeing none, all in favor of the amendment please signify by saying "aye"
(aye), any opposed? The amendment passes 10-0 with Commissioner Hopkins
excused.
Vote on Motion The motion to amend CA -18, as amended was carried by the following voice
To Amend CA -18 vote:
(Approved):
Ayes: Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Hamano,
Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd,
Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10
Noes: None.
Absent: Commissioner Hopkins - 1
Excused: None.
CHR. ADAMS: Okay, Commissioner Rice.
MS. RICE: I would like to make another amendment. This is in addition to E, a
signed agreement to file a written report to the department of finance, and my
addition, my motion is to add "and the Public Access, Open Space, and Natural
Resources Commission".
CHR. ADAMS: So where are we at exactly?
MS. RICE: E, it's E, under...
CHR. ADAMS: Alright, so actually it is under I, stewardship grants is I in the
CA -18 and it is (4) E, so at the bottom of page three of the proposal, and then so
that we know where we are at, your plan would be to add it to...
So the first sentence, so the way this reads there is "a signed agreement to file a
written report to the Department of Finance and the Public Access, Open Space,
and Natural Resources Commission one year or less after the receipt of funds"
etc.
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
Does everyone understand where it is located? Does anyone not understand
where it is located?
MR. HENRICKS: Mr. Chair.
CHR. ADAMS: Mr. Henricks.
MR. HENRICKS: Before, well, in concurrence with understanding where it is
located, if you wanted to establish that before I say anything?
CHR. ADAMS: I believe we, everybody indicated they know where it is at.
MR. HENRICKS: I just note that there is a sentence at the end of this subsection
or whatever we are calling it that says "The completed report shall be provided to
the Public Access, Open Space, and Natural Resources Preservation Commission
and the Council." It is on the very next page, on the top of page four. I don't
know if that is exactly the same thing, but it seems like it is already provided for.
CHR. ADAMS: If I may? I, just so I understand the way this is written, "A
signed agreement to file a written report" is not the same thing as a "completed
report" and so I think the idea is that they are saying the signed agreement to file a
written report to the Department of Finance and to the PONC Commission is what
you are saying, and then the completed report itself is what shall be provided to
the PONC Commission and then to the Council. Is that accurate?
MS. RICE: That's correct. So that the PONC Commission is involved in the fact
that the stewardship group has to sign that. It just solidifies the process.
CHR. ADAMS: Mr. Henricks, do you have anything...okay.
MR. HENRICKS: I guess I don't understand much at all at this point. It needs to
be said twice? Is there like the expectation that something is going to happen two
different times by the Commission seeing this report, that there will be different
results?
CHR. ADAMS: Go ahead Commissioner Rice.
MS. RICE: No. I mean I think it just says that the agreement signed by the
stewardship group submits the... to the PONC Commission so that it is agreed
that both Finance and the... so that the steward... it is more to make sure that the
stewardship group is aware and committed to writing these reports.
CHR. ADAMS: I need to take...
MS. TODD: Mr. Chair.
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
MR. HENRICKS: The report comes from...
CHR. ADAMS: I need to take, I need to take that, we are actually having a
discussion before we have a second. And so, we have an amendment by
Commissioner Rice. Is there a second on this particular amendment?
Commissioner Galimba has seconded. Alright so, the amendment is to add the
PONC to that particular location. Mr. Henricks did you have anything further?
MR. HENRICKS: Not really.
CHR. ADAMS: Okay. Commissioner Todd.
MS. TODD: This has now made the language in the last sentence somewhat
unnecessary. Other than that it should be provided to the Council because by
adding PONC to the first sentence, it means that the completed report gets
submitted to finance and PONC and then the last sentence is redundant as to
PONC because they will already have the completed report, so the only thing in
the last sentence that would then be necessary if you make this amendment to the
first sentence, is that the completed report should be given to the Council. So, in
other words, if you are going to amend the first sentence to add PONC, then you
should delete PONC from the last sentence because they have already gotten the
report. It is redundant. Because the first sentence says "a signed agreement to
file a written report to the Department of Finance and with the amendment and
PONC", so the first sentence would require the written report to be filed with the
Finance and PONC, which would then make the last sentence redundant as to
PONC because they would already have the completed report.
I think there is a misunderstanding as to what goes on here. The signed
agreement is just saying that they have to submit this report and the person that
they originally submit it to is Finance and then it gets submitted to both the
Council and PONC. And I think the reason that it was designed this way that it is
originally written to Finance, is that Finance would then review the report and if it
is inadequate or it is missing stuff, Finance would then be the entity saying "hey,
you missed this, you missed that, you need to get this additional information to
us." And then when all the additional information is in, then it would go to
PONC. I don't understand the purpose of this because PONC gets that report.
CHR. ADAMS: Alright. Thank you. If I may without objection, I would like to
bring Finance Director Sako who I understand is in Hilo, to the testifier's table.
As Director Sako comes forward I would draw the Commissioner's attention to
"i" (4), which is the start of all of this alright, so I is stewardship grants, (4) says
"to apply for a stewardship grant, a stewardship organization shall provide to the
Department of Finance and the PONC Commission the following", and then you
have all these subs, (A), (B), (C), (D), and (E). (E) is where we are at right now
with this particular amendment. And so, it would seem to me that the signed
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
agreement, first of all, a signed agreement is a signed agreement. It is not the
report itself right? And so, the reason I asked Director Sako to come forward is,
can you clear this process up for us please?
MS. SAKO: I think right now this is happening with the Department of Parks and
Recreation and it...
CHR. ADAMS: I am sorry. I am sorry. Thank you. Director, right into it.
MS. SAKO: Okay, we will do our best.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you.
MS. SAKO: So, right now all of this is happening with the Department of Parks
and Recreation but we will be having our staff receive the reports and then
transmitting them to the PONC Commission, and the PONC Commission does
fall under the Department of Finance, so I think that is going to automatically
happen.
CHR. ADAMS: Alrighty. Thank you. Did we understand that?
MS. RICE: I couldn't hear very well.
CHR. ADAMS: So what the Director said, and she will correct me if I misstate
this, is that currently this is happening with the Department of Parks and
Recreation, that when it comes to the Department of Finance, given that the
PONC Commission falls within the purview of the Department of Finance, their
plan is to receive these agreements and these reports and submit them, and
provide them to the PONC Commission as it is.
Is that accurate?
MS. SAKO: That's correct.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. So we have an amendment, we have the
amendment, do you still wish to go forward with the amendment?
MS. RICE: Well, based on all the conversation, it is probably just doubling down
so I think that I will stick with the amendment and see if it is voted up or down.
CHR. ADAMS: Okay. Any other discussion? Alright, let's do roll call on this
particular amendment.
MR. HENRICKS: Mr. Bergin (aye), Ms. Galimba (naye), Mr. Hamano (naye),
Mr. Hopkins (absent), Ms. Leithead-Todd (naye), Ms. Rice (aye), Mr. Roehrig
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
(No), Ms. Saquing (no), Ms. Springer (no), Ms. Zelko-Schlueter (no), Chair
Adams (no), Chair Adams you have two votes in favor.
Vote on Motion The motion to amend CA -18, as amended, failed by the following roll call vote:
To Amend CA -18
(Failed): Ayes: Commissioners Bergin and Rice — 2
Noes: Commissioners Galimba, Hamano, Roehrig,
Saquing, Springer, Todd, Zelko-Schlueter, and
Chair Adams— 8
Absent: Commissioners Hopkins —1
Excused: None.
CHR. ADAMS: The amendment does not pass. You have additional discussion
or amendments?
MS. RICE: I have additional discussion not on a proposed amendment but on
something that is in CA -18.
CHR. ADAMS: Well CA -18 is your proposed amendment.
MS. RICE: Okay. Okay. I would like to discuss (i) 6, which is... concerns the
stewardship groups having the ability to hire a person or persons to work on the
projects. There was some discussion as to the compliance with certain laws that
impact employment and I want to make it clear because the County has oversight,
these groups will be required to comply with local, state, and federal employment
regulations and that the stewardship groups are required in their budget to submit
a detailed business plan which would include any intention to hire and that the
oversight by the Finance Department would ensure that they were in compliance.
CHR. ADAMS: Alright. Thank you. Is there any other discussion on CA -18 as
amended? Sony, I thought I saw this initially and I turned away. Commissioner
Galimba?
MS. GALIMBA: So I just wanted to say that I support this amendment in
general. I do have some concerns about the section, the section six that
Commissioner Rice mentioned, however, I believe that the Department of Finance
can make sure that it is properly administered so I am not against it, it just needs
to be appropriately applied. So in conclusion, I support CA -18.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. Commissioner Hamano.
MR. HAMANO: Yeah in general, I am a supporter of CA -18 because you know
it liberalizes the ability of the PONC Maintenance Fund to do things in
furtherance of the PONC properties that are acquired. I do have concern about
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
this section six here with (i)... six, and basically that's because the previous
section specifically stated that officers and board members or employees shall not
be paid with PONC funds and then now we are having an amendment that allows
that. I would like to hear from the Finance Director if she has any comments on
this section.
CHR. ADAMS: Without objection, Director Sako are you available to speak on
what in this particular proposal is (i)6.
MS. SAKO: Yeah, hi, so (i) 6 I thought there were some concerns expressed by
our Corporation Counsel on this, but I may not be remembering that correctly, but
J is there if he does have comments. You know I think it is concerning to us that
you know we don't want there to ever be the confusion that the non -profits are
acting on behalf of the County. You know, they are acting on their own behalf,
but I think this is more consistent with our other non-profit grants where they do
pay their employees to perform the services of the grant.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. Mr. Yoshimoto do you have any comments on this
particular portion of this Charter proposal?
MR. YOSHIMOTO: I have general comments that are going to be pretty much
consistent with what Commissioner Rice has already said. I would just echo
those comments. If you want to go into Executive Session I can provide you
more details if necessary, but essentially what Commissioner Rice said is I
believe accurate, that any provisions that come forward would need to be in
compliance with any other applicable laws.
CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Todd.
MS. TODD: I think when we started down this road, the vision was that you
would have volunteer labor but that the grants could pay for supplies for, if you
needed equipment you know, a weed whacker you know, or whatever it was that
you might need to maintain or if you were trying to do specific work that came
within the parameters of PONC that you could pay for that. My experience with a
lot of agreements and this is in the context of critical habitat where we have said
"oh, we are going to designate an area critical habitat" and then the community
will voluntarily go in there and pull all the weeds. And it is really hard to
maintain sustained volunteers over a period of years. And it is also difficult for
people who are you know, want to devote if... unless they are independently
wealthy or have other sources of income, they have to work around their work
schedules in order to put the time in. And so the idea that you might hire some
people to go in and pull the weeds or go and monitor the trails because trails need
to be reviewed. Anytime you've got rain somebody's got to go in there and see
whether it is holding up and whether we need to do work. And I am comfortable
with the fact that they have got a report of work, report the work, it has to be in
their business plan, so that the Council gets to review what monies are going in
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
and what services are going to be received for that, and it is just that I think over
time it is very difficult. You have somebody committed and when that person
moves on, moves or passes away, sometimes it is very difficult to get somebody
else with that same kind of commitment without some type of monetary
compensation. Thank you.
CHR. ADAMS: Any other discussion? I have been... I have been concerned
about, I was initially concerned with (h) and I am happy to see that that is not
there, but I think I have been overall concerned with a general sense that I have
gotten from the testimony and the communications, correspondence that we have
received from those that are supporting 18, that and it is entirely possible that I am
misreading this, that there is a desire that the funds that come into... from the
maintenance fund... that come to the maintenance fund from the real property
taxes are designed to be there to support the stewardship organizations, the non-
profit organizations, that that is the purpose of those funds. And, I am concerned
about that having heard that and read that, not because they don't do great work,
because obviously they do great work and in some ways they are the ones that are
going to care about, I mean it is pretty clear they care about that work. But this is
still a government responsibility. I mean it is in the Charter and that is how we are
identifying it. And I think about where are there other times where we are using
government funding to support government operations by others. I knew that
somebody on this Commission would have an answer on that one, or at least a
conversation.
Commissioner Todd.
MS. TODD: There is a specific provision in State law, well actually there are a
couple of specific provisions which envision doing contracts with 501(c)(3), in
some cases to provide services that are normally provided by government
employees such as janitorial and yard keeping services. In probably the most
publicized are the ones that are done with services that have like ARC (The Arc)
and on Maui there are some services. Slightly different goal because the goal of
those contracts was to provide employment for people who might not otherwise
be able to get employment, but they had to have a specific provision.
With PONC we are entering a new phase in terms of 50l(c)(3)'s but it is a
recognition that in some cases, especially in very rural areas that some of these
acquisitions have occurred, it is very difficult to station a County employee
because the County employee probably has to have a base yard, he has to have
equipment to reach the site, he has to... and then that travel time is included in
this eight hour workday and the difficulty cause we ran into this when we looked
at different services, is that sometimes it is not cost-effective to do it with
government employees because of the rural nature of some of our facilities and
also in some cases the amount of work that is entailed is... doesn't lend itself to
the traditional employee, like County employees don't do trail maintenance as a
general rule in remote areas. And so, you have state law, you have the County
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
charter and provisions that have moved in a direction of trying to provide access
in areas where we typically have not in the past taken care of and sometimes
requires specific skillsets that aren't in our civil service listing. You know, we
don't have a job that says "go maintain this trail" and then that is the only thing
that you are going to do. In some cases that is what these stewardship grants are
going to do is primarily take care of public access. So it is a little different. The
comfort for me is that the plan has to set out what they are going to do. The
County Council in a public hearing has to review the plan and so there is
oversight and then there is a subsequent report that has to be filed that will be
reviewed by Council, Finance, and PONC in terms of what did they do, what did
they accomplish, and what did they spend the money on.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. Commissioner Rice, did you have a comment?
MS. RICE: No. She covered the bases. Thank you.
CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Saquing.
MS. SAQUING: Yes, I want to perhaps direct everyone to that word stewardship.
And I am going to use, I am so sorry I can't remember that lady's name who is
from Kohala and she is involved in all the PONC acquisitions, and... but that is a
really classic and excellent idea of how they truly malama the land that they have.
They have the community involved in the stewardship of caring for those
properties that they have acquired. This young lady who comes in here with all
the surfers, and I so agree with you, but those are perfect learning opportunities
for those youngsters to learn about stewardship, to learn about caring for their
land where they surf, the beach... they no need get paid. Their pay is learning
about being good stewards and having that kuleana to take care of that property,
so I kind of, when I see getting reimbursement for stewardship I think maybe to a
certain extent, but it is a perfect opportunity to educate the community, to get
them involved in caring for that property that is in their neighborhood so you
don't have to have Parks and Recreation people driving all the way out to
Na` alehu or Kohala, no, you get the people who live there. That's their property,
that's their land and it is their turn to malama that area that they are from. So I
really look at these non -profits to garner the volunteers, to garner the community
members to take care of what has been acquired under this PONC entity. Thank
you.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. Mr. Roehrig did you have comments before... did I
pass you on, no? Okay, Commissioner Hamano.
MR. HAMANO: Yeah, I had a question for the Corporation Counsel. So, let's
say a stewardship person gets injured while doing their job on the PONC lands,
can they file for Worker's Comp (Worker's Compensation) against the County?
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
Vote on Motion
To enter into
Executive Session
(Approved)
RECESS:
RECONVENE:
MR. YOSHIMOTO: We would have to go into Executive Session if we are
going to talk about liabilities of the County.
CHR. ADAMS: Can I have a motion to go into Executive Session?
MR. HAMANO: Yes. I move.
CHR. ADAMS: It has been moved by Commissioner Hamano, seconded by
Commissioner Saquing to go into Executive Session. Any discussion? All in
favor please signify by saying "aye" (aye), any opposed? Alright, let's go into
Executive Session.
Commissioner Hamamo moved to enter into Executive Session in order to hold
attorney-client privilege discussion regarding Communication No. 35, regarding
Public Access, Open Space, and Natural Resources Preservation Maintenance
Fund, to transfer administrative duties to the Department of Finance, add
permissible uses of the fund, and establish a base amount that must be reserved
for awards to stewardship organizations. Seconded by Commissioner Saquing.
Ayes:
Noes:
Absent:
Excused:
Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Hamano, Rice,
Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd, Zelko-Schlueter, and
Chair Adams —10
None.
Commissioners Hopkins —1
None.
At 1:02 p.m., the Chair called for a recess to go into Executive Session.
The meeting reconvened at 1:23 p.m.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. We are just waiting for one person here and then we
will go into open session.
Alright we will go back into open session. Director Sako.
MS. SAKO: Yes.
CHR. ADAMS: Let me see if I can remember the question now that it has been
five minutes. In the... unbelievable. I have managed to forget it. Alright. I am
sure it will come to me at some point.
MS. SAKO: No problem.
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
CHR. ADAMS: I know. What can I say? Clearly it wasn't important enough.
So is there any other discussion on CA -18 as amended? Alright so we have the
motion on the floor, we have the amendments, I would just like to point out what
the amendments were to CA -18 so you have it itself and then as a reminder (g) on
page two, we have (g) (11) and (12) were amended last time so that it says
"Building, installation, or building and installation of small sheds or structures for
the storage of maintenance equipment" and then (g) (12) says Building,
installation and maintenance of structures to provide protection from the
elements." Both of those were approved as amendments last time and then (h),
subsection (h) has been deleted. That was done today, and as a result, the
stewardship grants (i) is back to (h) alright, so that is a technical change. So
hearing no other discussion.
Commissioner Hamano.
MR. HAMANO: Yeah I wanted to say that I am going to vote in favor of CA -18
but I have reservations about section six here (h)(6) or (i) (6), you know about
compensating officers, board members, and employees of the stewardship groups,
but you know I would like to move it forward and have more discussion on it and
hear the you know, the public input on this measure. Thank you.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you Commissioner Hamano and thank you for reminding
me of what I was going to ask Director Sako about.
MS. SAKO: Yes, I am here.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. Do you, do you—are you aware of any other
situations where we are, where (6), I guess (i)... (i) (6) occurs, where we have
officers, board members, or employees of 501(c)(3) that receive salary as a part of
our grant work?
MS. SAKO: I am not sure we have any that actually spell out that it is for salary,
but we have several non-profit grants as part of another program in the County
that the Council oversees and to carry out those programs, I am sure you know,
employee's salaries, you know it is employees taking care of it. I am not sure if
they directly allocate it to the employees or not.
CHR. ADAMS: If it would be okay, I would be interested assuming that this
particular proposal passes initial approval, I would be interested in getting
something written that... where you have had the opportunity to take a look at
that and identify where those might be.
MS. SAKO: We will do that yes. Between now and the next meeting if this
moves forward.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you.
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
Commissioner Saquing.
MS. SAQUING: I just need some guidance. Would I be able to make an
amendment to the section (6) at this time?
CHR. ADAMS: If you have an amendment to make, you are.
MS. SAQUING: Okay, I do.
CHR. ADAMS: Okay.
MS. SAQUING: Okay, let's just start from scratch and I would like to read what
I am recommending. For section (6) I am recommending no officer, board
member, or employee of the 501(c)(3) non-profit organization or the organization
that operates under the umbrella of a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization, shall
receive a salary payment for labor. Reimbursement for the stewardship work on
the project... line out, provided any funds to be used, so I will start again.
Reimbursement for the stewardship work for the project shall be provided and
used for these purposes that are specifically stipulated in the detailed business
plan required by this subsection. And the last sentence remains intact. So
basically going back to the original. When you are a board member on a non-
profit, you don't get paid. You are volunteering your time. And usually officers
on a non-profit are your board members and if you have established a non-profit
organization, you can include salary for your executive, you know, the leader of
that non-profit organization, thus eliminating payment to those people
specifically.
CHR. ADAMS: Okay. Is there a second for this amendment? Alright. This
amendment has been moved by Commissioner Saquing and seconded by
Commissioner Hamano. So, just so that we keep our Commission Analyst not all
that upset with things, let's make sure we understand how this is going to read.
So, correct me if I am wrong here. "No officer, board member, or employee..."
did you include employee there? Okay. "of the 501(c)(3) non-profit organization
or the organization that operates under the umbrella of a 501(c)(3) non-profit
organization shall receive a salary or payment for labor." Second sentence:
"Reimbursement for the stewardship work on the project"... and now you are
going to have to remind me what you said.
MS. SAQUING: Okay. "Shall be provided", so "Reimbursement for..."
CHR. ADAMS: "The stewardship work on the project shall be provided."
MS. SAQUING: Correct. "And used for"...
CHR. ADAMS: And used for...
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
MS. SAQUING: "These purposes." And you should put in "that are" if you want
to get grammatically correct, "that are specifically stipulated in the detailed
business plan" and the rest.
CHR. ADAMS: "Required by this subsection" etc. Everybody good with what is
being amended here?
MR. HENRICKS: Please read back that sentence in full. Thank you.
CHR. ADAMS: Start with reimbursement.
MS. SAQUING: Okay. "Reimbursement for the stewardship work on the project
shall be provided and used for these purposes"... it should be "those"... "these
purposes that are specifically stipulated in the detailed"... oh no, wait a minute. I
am mixing myself up Jon. Hang on a second. Where do you want me to start
from?
CHR. ADAMS: The reimbursement. Yes.
MS. SAQUING: Yep. Okay. Okay. "Reimbursement for the stewardship work
on the project shall be provided and used for these purposes that are specifically
stipulated in the detailed business plan required by this subsection."
CHR. ADAMS: Is there a, just so I understand. Is it your intention that the
reimbursement shall be provided and used for only these purposes? And so, the
idea is that those purposes are the ones that are specifically stipulated. Is that
right?
MS. SAQUING: So I guess I need a little bit more clarity. I am understanding
that when they present a business plan, you should have already spelled out the
needs which you... and the steps that are required to carry out for example, doing
your stewardship of the proposed property or land. So if that is the case, if you
are going to include items like Deanna Sako mentioned, equipment that you are
going to need, then that should already be part of your business plan, so if you are
going to ask for reimbursement for those items, those are the items you are going
to submit to get reimbursed for.
CHR. ADAMS: Discussion. Commissioner Galimba.
MS. GALIMBA: I like where you are going with this, sort of trying to get away
from paying officers and board because that does get a little... that just kind of
looks a little funny, I am not sure that I am totally buying this language yet. I
guess because it doesn't allow for you to pay officers, and board members who
might be the ones that really are going to be pitching in you know? And doing
some of this, and... but, you don't want to just be paying them directly because
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
they are an officers. You want to be paying them because they are doing the
stewardship work which I think is what you are trying to get at?
MS. SAQUING: Right, and that is kind of an oxymoron. When you do
stewardship, you are volunteering your time you know and I use the young
surfers, you are teaching them how to be good stewards of the land or the ocean,
you don't get paid for that and I go clean up Onekahakaha Beach you know as a
community, I don't expect to get paid and I guess I really want us to look at that
purpose of this whole... when I read this whole section near six, it is really talking
about... well, I am reading it to appear that you... the board members originally
"no officers, board members, or employees shall receive a salary payment for
labor", so I am really addressing that. That's the core that I want to look at and
address, that yeah, they shouldn't be paid. That what should be reimbursed is
what Ms. Sako said is for equipment and other things. If they want to increase
salary for non-profit officer or someone who is running it, then they need to write
grants to increase that salary range and not go back to the County and expect
because I am being a steward of the land then I expect to be paid for that, I guess
that's my philosophy behind all of that.
CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Rice.
MS. RICE: I respectfully disagree. I have been involved with non -profits which
have been involved in clearing and preparing areas for replanting of natives, some
of which are endangered species and it gets a little old if you are going out there
on your Saturdays with the weed whacker and hacking at Christmas Berry and
Castor Bean, and all the various invasives that have filled our lands. So the
testimony that we got from the non -profits was along that line. You can get them
out there for a day or two and they are happy to do it, but for consistency and
these properties require long-term maintenance and to get them out there on a
continual basis, it simply isn't practical. You will have people fall by the wayside
and you will end up with a workforce that no longer exists. So I think the ability
for them to pay, and they have to present their budget, so this is going to be
spelled out prior to their doing the work and if it is out of line it will be
negotiated, but I really think that the... they need that flexibility. I think the
stewardship groups need to be able to pay people whether they are part of their
organization or outsiders, to do some of the work, to really get it done as time
goes on. Thanks.
CHR. ADAMS: Commissioners.
Commissioner Zelko.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Yeah, I have to agree with Commissioner Saquing.
For me, I mean just for most organizations, we will not count volunteer hours if a
person is being paid, if it is during the work day when they are supposed to be
working and so, you know, I think that these organizations can apply for various
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
grants. If that's something that they you know, in order to be... to get consistent
volunteering they would like to pay, but I am not comfortable paying the salaries.
Commissioner Saquing.
MS. SAQUING: I was going to get on my education soapbox here. A lot of the
lands come with rich cultural and historical backgrounds attached to them and for
me, those are huge learning opportunities for our students that can be easily
started at elementary school and migrated up to intermediate and high school, and
what you are doing is you are perpetuating stewardship across the board starting
from a young age. I mean I had kids volunteering when they were like in
kindergarten and you have to teach that because it becomes an intrinsic part of
your life to give back and to be stewards of the land. Not only when you are in
kindergarten but as adults, as grown adults, always being able to give back. So, I
kind of challenge a lot of our non -profits out there to get creative and utilize the
various clubs, the various educational institutions and schools in and around our
community. I mean get kupuna out there. I would go out there and do something
as long as my bones can keep me going, but I think there is really an opportunity
to really get creative and involve the community without having to pay any extra
funds for that. Thank you.
CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Todd.
MS. TODD: I admit to a certain amount of ambivalence over this. Because on
the one hand up until now the 501 (c)(3)'s have been operating with the provision
that says that they shall not receive a salary or payment for labor or receive any
reimbursement for the stewardship work. And that was language I think that was
originally put in by the very people who proposed a 2% fund. But I think that as
time goes by and the work of the stewardship fleshes out and you get more hands
on the ground you know, you have initially you have this grand vision that
everybody is going to volunteer. I have worked on volunteer projects. One where
we went down and cleared brush at the National Park to get rid of invasives and
Christmas Berry. I have done other stuff where I have gone out in the woods to
gather seed samples for research on native plants. But I also did another one
where we were looking at invasive plants and we got recruited to, and we got
trained... to go out and you know, ring the plant and spray the particular poison
so we would kill the invasive because we didn't want... because that was the only
way. You couldn't cut it down because you still had the seeds that could get
spread by birds. But, while there was significant volunteer component, there were
paid employees under a grant that had been funded by the State because someone
had to train the volunteers on what to do because the volunteers would change
from weekend to weekend. You would have a different group, but you had to
have one group that was there to train the volunteers, and they were compensated.
And so, on the one hand I think there is this grand vision that you know you are
going to be able to round up the volunteers all the time to do this. On the other
hand, if you are going to do a sustained piece of work, this isn't a one day beach
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
cleanup after the storm. This is an ongoing maintenance of a piece of property in
a rural area that we have acquired and it is going to require week to week
surveillance to see what needs to be done. It may require people who are there to
explain to members of the public that come there what is going on so some of that
can be done with volunteers, but I think you need that flexibility.
Now, any proposal to pay an employee or to pay a salary has to be in the work
plan and that work plan has to be reviewed by the County Council before they
award the grant, and so I think that as the PONC program matures, that we should
have some flexibility in how we address it and it will be unique from one parcel to
another depending on what the needs of that parcel are, but I envision that you
may need somebody that coordinates volunteer groups and that that person has to
be someone that is the same person there to coordinate and he's got the list, or
she's got the list and she puts the word out and she may be the one who has to put
the advertising out to coordinate or the emails out to coordinate the volunteer
effort. And so, you know, I lean towards the existing amendment which would
allow payment of a salary as well as reimbursement because I think that you have
that checks and balances in terms of the County Council reviewing the business
plan. But I think it gives greater flexibility and I think these organizations are
also fairly committed. They are not going to want to eat up all the grant money in
a salary for the executive or the board members. They are going to want to put
the money on the ground because that is their mission. So, I am in favor of trying
to give some flexibility because there is that checks and balances. Thank you.
CHR. ADAMS: Anything else Commissioners? Then let's vote.
MR. HENRICKS: Prior to that, please if I may, just a question. In the final
sentence of this, I would... just for the record I am wondering what Ms. Saquing,
what reimbursements is meant to cover. The reason I ask is that this portion of
the Charter is, was, as currently provided for, is all about the concept of payment
for labor, and as it is currently written, reimbursement for the stewardship work,
so that would to me entail work. There already are provisions in place for... I
don't know if it is necessarily what we call the reimbursement but payment for
equipment, supplies, materials, things of that nature. I just want it to be clear and
perhaps it is not necessary to include that language as far as reimbursements.
MS. SAQUING: Thank you for framing it as such and I think in thinking about it
further, how would you measure stewardship work and get reimbursed for that? I
mean I am just throwing that out because now that we are drilling down on the
sentences, I don't know what is in place in the Finance Department that... and
how they actually... do they have reimbursement scale? So, I don't know how to
answer that.
MR. HENRICKS: Well, if I understood your intent, it was to... and that is why I
asked you to clarify what types of things or costs would be reimbursable.
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
MS. SAQUING: Again, I was going, reverting back to what Ms. Sako referred to
with regards to equipment and things that were done in the past.
MR. HENRICKS: Right. Right.
MS. SAQUING: So do you want, are you suggesting to spell that out here?
MR. HENRICKS: No. I am suggesting the opposite, that those things are already
provided for under the current provisions of the Charter and this section, what is
now six, is strictly related to, under the current Charter, making it abundantly
clear that there will be no payment or compensation for labor at all.
MS. SAQUING: I see.
MR. HENRICKS: So I don't know if it is wise to introduce provisions in there
that relate to reimbursement for materials, supplies, and expenses which could be
confused to have something to do with labor and work because that is what that
section is about, and you are reverting the original part to make it clear that funds
cannot be used to provide payment for labor. So, my suggestion would be if that
is your intent...
MS. SAQUING: To eliminate that sentence.
MR. HENRICKS: To just basically make your amendment to revert the language
to as what it is in the Charter now. I believe that the concept of putting
reimbursables in there will only be confusing and will not necessarily in any way
aid the department, whoever is in charge of this, to make sure that what is
contractually stipulated as far as materials, supplies, or whatever, will be taken
care of. That is already part of the provisions of the Charter.
MS. SAQUING: Okay. Okay. So I agree.
CHR. ADAMS: Okay. So, we can make a friendly... you can make a friendly,
you are the maker of the motion and whether or not this is accurate or not, I am
sure I will be told. That as long as the second is okay with this, you can... if your
plan is to just say "rather than what I already had as my amendment, I just want it
to revert back to what the previous paragraph looked like before the CA -18
amendment." We have the words here in the Ramseyer.
MS. SAQUING: Okay. So rather than what I proposed in my amendment, I
would like to see this section revert to its original verbiage, statement, good
enough?
CHR. ADAMS: Are you okay with that? Alright. So the amendment that is on
the floor then is the current Charter, 2018 Charter version (h) (5) in 10-16, that
would become the words that would then be part of CA -18 as proposed.
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
Vote on Motion
To Amend CA -18
(Approved):
Everybody got that? Okay. Any other discussion? Alright, could we have a roll
call on this please?
So what we are voting on is the amendment that takes the current verbs... or
current wording that is in CA -18 and reverts it back to what is in the current
Charter right now, just for that section, subsection.
Everybody knows what a yes vote is? Everybody knows what a no vote is? Okay.
MR. HENRICKS: Mr. Bergin (inaudible), Ms. Galimba (no), Mr. Hamano (aye),
Mr. Hopkins (absent), Ms. Leithead-Todd (no), Ms. Rice (no), Mr. Roehrig (aye),
Ms. Saquing (aye), Ms. Springer (aye), Ms. Zelko-Schlueter (aye), Chair Adams
(no). Chair Adams you have six votes in favor.
The motion to amend CA -18, as amended, was carried by the following
voice vote:
Ayes: Commissioners Bergin, Hamano, Roehrig,
Saquing, Springer, and Zelko-Schlueter — 6
Noes: Commissioners Galimba, Rice, Todd, and
Chair Adams - 4
Absent: Commissioner Hopkins - 1
Excused: None.
CHR. ADAMS: The amendment, the motion to amend passes. So, where we are
right now is that we have a motion on the floor to approve an initial... for initial
approval, CA -18 as amended. The amendments one more time are in (g)(11) and
(12) where we have added building at the beginning of both of those sentences,
where we have deleted (h), and where we have reverted (i)(6) now (h)(6) back to
its original paragraph as (h)(5). Are we clear? Alright. Any further discussion?
Alright. Roll call vote please.
MR. HENRICKS: On the main motion to approve CA -18 as amended on initial
approval, Mr. Bergin (aye), Ms. Galimba (aye), Mr. Hamano (aye), Mr. Hopkins
(absent), Ms. Leithead-Todd (aye), Ms. Rice (aye), Mr. Roehrig (aye), Ms.
Saquing (aye), Ms. Springer (aye), Ms. Zelko-Schlueter (aye), Chair Adams (aye).
Chair Adams you have 10 votes in favor.
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
Vote on Motion The motion to pass CA -18, as amended, on initial approval was carried by the
To Approve CA -18, following voice vote:
As amended
(Approved):
RECESS:
RECONVENE:
Ayes:
Noes:
Absent:
Excused:
Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Hamano, Rice, Roehrig,
Saquing, Springer, Todd, Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10
None.
Commissioner Hopkins - 1
None.
CHR. ADAMS: Alright. The motion passes and CA -18 has been... as amended,
has been approved for initial approval. We are going to go take a 10 minute
recess at this moment and then we will come back and get into New Business.
Thank you.
At 1:57 p.m., the Chair called for a recess.
The meeting reconvened at 2:09 p.m.
NEW BUSINESS: The Chair directed the Commission to proceed to the next order of business,
New Business.
CHR. ADAMS: Alright. We are in New Business. We will start with
Communication No. 28.1 which transmits CA -12 for First Reading; Proposal to
amend Section 3-7 by adding disciplinary measures for Council members who
behave in a disorderly or contemptuous manner at Council meetings, or, when a
Council member fails to attend three or more regular meetings of the Council
without being excused by the Council Chair, as submitted by Commissioner
Leithead-Todd. I would entertain a motion, is there a second?
It has been moved by Commissioner Todd and seconded by Commissioner Rice,
since that was the one that I heard out of my good ear, to approve on first reading.
Any discussion? All in favor please signify by saying "aye" (aye), any opposed?
(opposed).
Alright, we have 10 "ayes" and one..., no, nine "ayes" and one "no" with
Commissioner Roehrig being the "nage". Motion passes on first reading.
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
Vote on Motion The motion to pass CA -12 on First Reading was carried by the following
To Approve CA -12 voice vote:
(Approved):
Ayes: Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Hamano,
Rice, Saquing, Springer, Todd,
Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams — 9
Noes: Commissioner Roehrig —1
Absent: Commissioner Hopkins —1
Excused: None.
CHR. ADAMS: Moving on to Communication No. 31.1: Transmitting CA -14
for First Reading; Proposal to amend Sections 6-4.3 and 6-4.4, to update language
for the Qualifications and the Powers, Duties and Functions of the Director of
Information Technology; as submitted by Commissioner Adams. I would
entertain a motion to... it has been moved by Commissioner Bergin and seconded
by Commissioner Todd to transmit CA -14 for First Reading. Any discussion?
All in favor of the motion please signify by saying "aye" (aye), any opposed?
Motion passes 10-0 with Commissioner Hopkins excused, as he was on the
previous motion.
Vote on Motion The motion to pass CA -14 on First Reading was carried by the following
To Approve CA -14 voice vote:
(Approved):
Ayes: Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Hamano,
Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd,
Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10
Noes: None.
Absent: Commissioner Hopkins —1
Excused: None.
CHR. ADAMS: Communication No. 32.1: Transmitting CA -15 for First
Reading; Proposal to amend Section 6-4.4, Powers, Duties and Functions of the
Director of Information Technology to reflect the current status of operations; as
submitted by Commissioner Adams. I would entertain a motion to approve for
First Reading. It has been moved by Commissioner Galimba and seconded by
Commissioner Todd. Is there any discussion? All in favor of this motion please
signify by saying"aye" (aye), any opposed? Motion passes 10-0 with
Commissioner Hopkins excused.
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Vote on Motion The motion to pass CA -15 on First Reading was carried by the following
To Approve CA -15 voice vote:
(Approved):
Ayes: Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Hamano,
Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd,
Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10
Noes: None.
Absent: Commissioner Hopkins —1
Excused: None.
CHR. ADAMS: Communication No. 34.2: Transmitting CA -17 for First
Reading; Proposal to add new Section to Article X, Financial Procedures, to
establish a Disaster and Emergency Fund; as submitted by Commissioner
Leithead-Todd. Entertain a motion to approve CA -17 for First Reading. Is there a
second? It has been moved by Commissioner Todd and seconded by
Commissioner Zelko-Schlueter. Is there any discussion?
Commissioner Rice.
MS. RICE: I have just a couple of questions. On (b)(5) where it says "paying for
operational expenses of the county after a disaster etc." That is kind of open
ended. I am just wondering that some future Administration couldn't extend that
beyond what is intended here and I wondered if it needed some kind of a
termination phrase. Commissioner Leithead-Todd what do you think?
CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Todd.
MS. TODD: I basically took this language from the existing County Code on use
of the existing Disaster and Emergency Fund and you know, basically we found
that emergency and recovery can last longer than the actual declared emergency.
Like if you look at the lava situation in Puna, you know the volcano has stopped
erupting but they still gotta put work out there to restore the roads, they you
know, wondering if water supply might need some of the money to restore water
to areas that have been cut off, and so it envisioned that there would be a length of
time and that there would be oversight eventually by the Council because there
would be you know, the budget process when they have to come back and
explain.
MS. RICE: Okay. Got it. Thank you.
CHR. ADAMS: Any other items for discussion? All in favor of the motion
please signify by saying "aye" (aye), any opposed? Motion passes 10-0 with
Commissioner Hopkins excused.
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Vote on Motion The motion to pass CA -17 on First Reading was carried by the following
To Approve CA -17 voice vote:
(Approved):
Ayes: Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Hamano,
Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd,
Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10
Noes: None.
Absent: Commissioner Hopkins —1
Excused: None.
CHR. ADAMS: Communication No. 36: Transmitting CA -19 for Initial
Approval; Proposal to add a new Section to Article X, Financial Procedures, to
prohibit the County from applying a minimum real property tax rate and unless
otherwise provided for by ordinance, require that real property taxes be levied
based on the assessed value of the parcel and any improvements thereto; as
submitted by Commissioner Hopkins.
Now before we move forward on this, let me just make a comment. I would, I am
going to ask that we postpone this particular proposal until Commissioner
Hopkins is here at the next meeting in April. However, I am cognizant of the fact
that we have individuals from the staff, from the Department of Finance in
particular, that are available to address any questions that they may have plus I
know that they have prepared comments, a short comment page that we all have
regarding this. So I am inclined to entertain a motion to approve this particular
Charter Amendment on Initial Approval and then without objection here,
assuming that that gets a second, then hear from our Department of Finance staff
and then entertain a motion to postpone.
Alright, so I would entertain a motion to approve CA -19. It has been moved by
Commissioner Galimba and seconded by Commissioner Zelko-Schlueter.
Discussion? At this time without objection, I would like Director Sako and her
team to come forward to address this particular Charter Amendment please.
(Note: At this time, Director Deanna Sako came forward to address the members
of the Commission.)
MS. SAKO: Hi. I did send some of my staff back earlier when you guys took a
break, so I just messaged them to come back, but just in general you know,
sometimes there's unintended consequences and one is that you know right now
real property tax is not mentioned in the Charter. It is you know a power given to
us through the State Constitution and you know, the Legislature can give and the
Legislature can also take away. So there is also unintended consequences that by
removing that language the other agencies and non -profits and what not that could
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
actually be adversely affected. So it is an issue with taxation as a whole. We
currently do have a real property tax working group that has been working very
hard looking at the various Sections of the Code, Chapter 19 in the Hawai`i
County Code and so we are very appreciative of that. And we would also like
them to complete their work before making you know, substantive changes. So, I
think while the intention may be good, there are some really negative things that
could happen because of it. But I am happy to answer any specific questions and
I have our Deputy Director Steve Hunt with me who is also knowledgeable in that
real property tax area.
CHR. ADAMS: Commissioners have any specific questions regarding this?
Commissioner Todd.
MS. TODD: Deanna, in the past when we looked at setting minimums, we
looked at what the cost of processing the tax bills was. I think because at one
time the minimum was $25, we then raised it to $100, and then I am not sure
exactly when it got raised to $200. If that was recent but...
MS. SAKO: Yeah, that was recent.
MS. TODD: I know that on O`ahu in one case that at some point they decided
when they had set property taxes for the minimum, so low that they ended up
waiving collection on like Hawaiian Homestead Land, just because it wasn't
worth the cost of processing. So what does it, do you have a figure on what it
costs the department to process because I know you gotta track down the owner
and look at the assessment, and compare with other properties, so what does it
cost the County?
MS. SAKO: I don't have that particular cost with me today, but there is definitely
a lot of costs in terms of setting the value, sending out the valuation notices, going
through the appeal process, then billing, and then ultimately collecting, and
collecting is where you know we run into our you know, largest expenditures in
that area. Like you said, tracking down people, resolving different ownership
disputes and whatnot, so I can have them calculate that between now and the next
meeting.
CHR. ADAMS: Okay. Commissioner Rice did you have any?
MS. RICE: (off mic) I am feeling uncomfortable.
MS. SAKO: I am sorry we can't hear her.
MS. RICE: I am not comfortable with this until we have more information. It
just seems that it would be better to leave this to the task force that is working on
the taxes because there are lots of other things that are controversial like the
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
taxation on agricultural land, but it just, I feel like I am, I don't want to vote on
something that I don't really know much about.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. Commissioner Roehrig.
MR. ROEHRIG: Excuse me. Does it make sense that we continue this and let
Mr. Hopkins you know, tell us what he is thinking about and answer our questions
etc.?
CHR. ADAMS: Right. That was my plan before you wanted to say something.
MR. ROEHRIG: Oh, excuse me, okay, that's the plan.
CHR. ADAMS: Okay. Commissioner Galimba.
MS. GALIMBA: I wanted to ask Deanna's team if they could give us a little
more detail on what they meant by unintended consequences, especially as it
relates to non -profits.
MS. SAKO: Yes, so right now some groups are actually tied to the minimum tax,
so for example, non -profits pay the minimum tax. However, the value of their
property, once we remove the minimum tax, they could end up paying
significantly more than that.
CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Todd.
MS. TODD: And in addition to non -profits, there are other categories...
MS. SAKO: Correct.
MS. TODD: That get a break in terms of just having to pay the minimum tax and
if you get rid of the ability to do the minimum tax and go with this proposal,
which is basically just on valuation, then you are going to have a hit on churches,
non-profit organizations, I think even union halls because it is set for kind of like
a public purpose. All of them would then get hit with significantly more taxes
than under the current Code.
CHR. ADAMS: Okay. Thanks. I would entertain a motion to postpone this
particular Charter Amendment. Second? Alright. It has been moved by
Commissioner Bergin, seconded by Commissioner Saquing to postpone this
particular Charter Amendment to our next regular meeting. Any discussion? All
in favor, please signify by saying "aye" (aye), any opposed?
Alright. CA -19 is postponed to our next regular meeting. Thank you Director
Sako and Mr. Hunt.
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Vote on Motion The motion to postpone CA -19 was carried by the following voice vote:
To Postpone CA -19
(Approved): Ayes: Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Hamano,
Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd,
Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10
Noes: None.
Absent: Commissioner Hopkins —1
Excused: None.
CHR. ADAMS: Moving on to Item No. 6, on Communication No. 37. At this
point I would like to turn this over to the Vice -Chair.
Relinquish Chair: At this time, Chair Adams relinquished the chair to Vice Chair Zelko-Schlueter.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Thank you Chair Adams. So, communication No.
37: Transmitting CA -20 for Initial Approval; Proposal to amend Section 15-3,
Mandatory Charter Reviews, to add protocol and procedures for the Charter
Commission, including the date by which the Charter Commission must be
empaneled, based on the provisions of Chapter 50 of the Hawai`i Revised
Statutes; as submitted by Commissioner Adams. I would entertain a motion to
approve transmitting CA -20 for initial approval.
CHR. ADAMS: Iso move.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Do I have a second? Okay. Chair Adams.
CHR. ADAMS: Thanks. Who was the second on that? Okay, Commissioner
Saquing, great.
You will notice in 15-3, which is where this pertains to, there is a lot of additions
here. Not a huge amount of deletions. The purpose of this is that when I went
back to take a look at previous Charter Commission's work, I think we operated
under the assumption that we all, all the Commissions have pretty much been
doing the same thing in terms of their processes and all those kinds of things.
Turns out not so much. And so when I went back then to the statute, Chapter 50
to take a look at the various sections there, it would have been perfectly fine to
have been able to just use that, we can operate underneath that, wouldn't have to
necessarily be in the Charter, but when I read it I was concerned and I expressed
this concern with the staff, particularly Mr. Henricks and Mr. Yoshimoto, that the
interpretation could be confusing where it might not necessarily mean this
particular Charter Commission. It might have meant previous like the initial
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
Charter Commission. So just to get, to establish... this is what we are doing and
this is the procedures for this Commission, that is the purpose of this particular
Charter Amendment. The idea being we identify the time when we are going to
start, and then we identify the timelines for finishing up. This is in, this Charter
Amendment and I am sure Mr. Yoshimoto will correct me if I am wrong here, is
in accordance with HRS (Hawai`i Revised Statutes) as we understand it and we
are not doing something that is not related or falls under the statute itself.
The one thing that this does do or the two things that this does do is one, it does
change the date that we start again, so rather than starting in July of the year prior
to the... the year prior, so for example we started in July of 2018 with a potential
you know with a normal I guess is the right way to say it or typical election
ballots being considered in November 2020 so essentially two and a half years
before hand. This would put us back into the normal sequence of things which is
starting at the beginning of the previous year, 19, and then running through and
getting the information to the Council again by the beginning of 2020, you have
then the period of time, you are not losing an entire year or 15 or 16 months from
the time you would finish, which is what we are potentially going to do here, until
you would actually vote on it. So this puts this back in to the time period of
starting, having the appropriate amount of time which is essentially a year, which
is in statute, and then having enough time to get it before the voters with the
amount of time that they need to but not too much time to consider the options.
So that is one thing.
The second thing is, I took out the phrase there in the first paragraph "no more
than a majority of whom shall belong to the same political party." I don't know
about you, but nobody asked me what my political party was when I was
considered for this particular issue so I just think that that is irrelevant and doesn't
necessarily need to be part of that. So, that is the deal. Any questions on this that
I can answer?
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Any further discussion on this?
Commissioner Todd.
MS. TODD: Just on the language about the majority not belonging to the same
political party. That is language that exists from when the County was not non-
partisan. When we ran as Republicans and Democrats and we elected to go non-
partisan so that the party preference has not been an issue really and the end result
has been that almost everybody that gets elected to the County Council is a
Democrat. There is virtually no Republicans there anymore. Thank you.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Okay, without objection, we can take a voice vote.
All in favor of transmitting CA -20 for Initial Approval please signify by saying
"aye" (aye), anyone opposed? Motion passes 10-0, with Commissioner Hopkins
excused.
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Vote on Motion The motion to pass CA -20 on initial approval was carried by the following
To Approve CA -20 voice vote:
(Approved):
Ayes: Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Hamano,
Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd,
Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10
Noes: None.
Absent: Commissioner Hopkins —1
Excused: None.
MR. HENRICKS: Just to clarify for the record, that is passing the proposal on
initial approval.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Passing, yes. Thank you. Okay, I will go on.
Communication No. 38: Transmitting CA -21 for Initial Approval; Proposal to
amend Section 11-5, subsection (c), Initiative and Referendum Petitions; Forms
and Sufficiency, by replacing the word "appeal" with "repeal" as a correction of
terms; as submitted by Commissioner Adams. I would entertain a motion to
approve transmitting CA -21 for initial approval.
CHR. ADAMS: So moved.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Do I have a second? Okay. Commissioner
Galimba has seconded. Chair Adams.
CHR. ADAMS: Thanks. You'll note if I may, several of the next items are what
we would call... I wouldn't say they are housekeeping, but they are things that we
have heard and they seemed important at least to me and so that is why they are in
here. So, this in particular is, this is a fixing of the and putting in the correct word
in 11-5, subsection (c), Initiative and Referendum and so I would point out that
when I went back to take a look at the initial back in 1979, the word was correct
and that at some point over time it got changed, so we are looking to repeal not
appeal.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Any further discussion on that? Okay, without
objection we will take a voice vote. All in favor of passing CA -21 for Initial
Approval please signify by saying "aye" (aye), anyone opposed? Motion passes
10-0 with Commissioner Hopkins excused.
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Vote on Motion The motion to pass CA -21 on initial approval was carried by the following
To Approve CA -21 voice vote:
(Approved):
Ayes: Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Hamano,
Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd,
Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10
Noes: None.
Absent: Commissioner Hopkins —1
Excused: None.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Communication No. 39: Transmitting CA -22 for
Initial Approval; Proposal to amend Section 12-1.3, Signatures- Recall of an
Elected Official, by removing the requirement that a signer of a petition to recall
an elected County official include the last four digits of his or her social security
number; as submitted by Commissioner Adams. I would entertain a motion to
approve transmitting CA -22 for Initial Approval.
CHR. ADAMS: So moved.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: A second? Commissioner Galimba seconded.
Chair Adams.
CHR. ADAMS: Thanks. This actually, we are taking social security number
requirements out of this. I believe that that is something that our election officials
said that we needed to do.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Okay. Any further discussion? Okay, without
objection we will take a voice vote. All in favor of transmitting CA -22 for,
passing CA -22 for Initial Approval please signify by saying "aye" (aye), anyone
opposed? Motion passes 10-0 with Commissioner Hopkins excused.
Vote on Motion The motion to pass CA -22 on initial approval was carried by the following
To Approve CA -22 voice vote:
(Approved):
Ayes: Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Hamano,
Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd,
Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10
Noes: None.
Absent: Commissioner Hopkins —1
Excused: None.
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MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: So Communication No. 40: Transmitting CA -23 for
Initial Approval; Proposal to amend Section 6-5.2, Appointment and Removal -
Corporation Counsel, by adding that an attorney must be licensed to practice law
for at least five years and have at least three years of experience in an
administrative capacity before being eligible for appointment as the Corporation
Counsel; as submitted by Commissioner Adams. I would entertain a motion to
approve transmitting CA -23 for Initial Approval.
CHR. ADAMS: So moved.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Saquing seconded. Chair Adams.
CHR. ADAMS: This is a proposal that came out of the operation... the office of
Corporation Counsel. This was part of the conversations that we had when we
were talking with various departments about the qualification requirements and so
it appeared to me at least that we should have something like this for our
Corporation Counsel.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Okay. Any further discussion? Okay, without
objection we will take a voice vote on this. All in favor of passing CA -23 for
Initial Approval please signify by saying "aye" (aye), anyone opposed? Okay,
with Commissioner Hamano opposing, and the Motion passes 9-1 with
Commissioner Hopkins excused.
Vote on Motion The motion to pass CA -23 on initial approval was carried by the following
To Approve CA -23 voice vote:
(Approved):
Ayes: Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Rice,
Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd,
Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams — 9
Noes: Commissioner Hamano —1
Absent: Commissioner Hopkins —1
Excused: None.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Moving on to Communication No. 41: Transmitting
CA -24 for Initial Approval; Proposal to amend Section 7-4.2 through 7-4.4 and
Section 7-4.6, all relating to the powers, duties, and functions of the Fire Chief
and the Fire Commission, by amending the prerequisites for eligibility to be
appointed as the Fire Chief and to add "water safety" to the duties and functions
of the Hawai`i Fire Department as a recognition of current practices; as submitted
by Commissioner Adams. I would entertain a motion to approve transmitting
CA -24 for Initial Approval.
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
So Commissioner Bergin made the motion and Chair Adams seconded. Chair
Adams.
CHR. ADAMS: So this is a little different. In the sense that we have added, we
have combined a couple of things here. So, all of this is information that was
provided to us by both the Fire Chief and the Fire Commission. Let me just run
briefly through 7-4.2 adds the addition of "water safety". It was pretty clear to me
that "water safety" was one of the triumvirate of duties, or responsibilities, or
functions that they, that the Fire Department has and so including this, including
that here I think recognizes that particularly for me, given that we have taken our
Coast Guard off of this island, even though it is in Honolulu, we just don't have it
here anymore so the additional responsibilities that the Fire Department has. I
think it is important to recognize that here. So that is why that is there. Then you
will also notice in 7-4.3, both the Fire Chief and the Fire Commission came back
with suggestions regarding, suggestions and recommendations regarding the
combination of education and experience required for the position of Fire Chief. I
would note that the residency requirement waiver was something that both agreed
on and so that is why that is included in there. It is a "may". It is not a "shall", so
it does give them the authority essentially to decide what they would like to do in
that regard.
And then the bachelor's degree or the additional couple of years of fire service
experience is something that was identified by both the Fire Chief and the Fire
Commission. And then down in 7-4.6, Powers, Duties, and Functions regarding
the Fire Commission, the phrasing, the "as deemed necessary" as something they
suggested and then also the idea of doing away with the Administrative affairs
and replacing that with "standard operational activities" is something that came
from the Fire Commission as well.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Any further discussion on that?
Commissioner Todd.
MS. TODD: I do have a question. In that subsection (1), possession of a
bachelor's degree, there is no specific, so I could have, assuming I was in the Fire
Department, I could have a bachelor's degree in Music, I could have a bachelor's
degree in English Literature which is the one I have, or I could have a bachelor's
degree in Fire Science and yet they would both be equivalent to each other, the
degree in Music versus a degree in actual Fire Science, so I am just raising that
question because there is also a master's degree in Fire Science that you can get
and so, just food for thought. That I guess you don't want to raise the bar so high
that nobody can make it by putting like a master's degree, but it seems to be to
me, that maybe the bachelor's degree should be related to, in order to replace
years of experience, that the bachelor's degree should be in a field related to the
duties of the department. I am just you know, putting it out there because I just
don't think that if I have like, you know, one of my kids has a degree in the
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performing arts. He can play the trumpet very well and he can sing, but none of
his degree has anything to do with running a department and I wouldn't think that
just the degree should waive the requisite years of service and experience. I note
that the difference is, they are basically giving two years of credit for having a
degree. And I am just wondering whether the... whether the degree ought to be
related as opposed to just any degree. Just putting that out there. I am not
proposing an amendment to this. I am just putting that out there for discussion
purposes because I think Planning Department you have specific areas that you
need to have experience in, Environmental Management it says it has to be a
degree related to the department's duties. For data I think if there is an
educational requirement we usually tie the educational requirement to the actual
function of the department. So just throwing that out there because if you are
going to waive years of service then to me the degree ought to have some
correlation, even if it is just an AA (Associate of Arts) in Fire Science, but to me
there should be some correlation.
CHR. ADAMS: If I may... oh, I am sorry.
MS. SAQUING: I had a question. Was this recommended by the Commission
and the Fire Chief, these requirements?
CHR. ADAMS: Yes. So, I am sorry.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Rice.
MS. RICE: I agree that there should be some relation with the higher education
since they get two years credit against experience, so I think a related field, Fire
Science or a related field because that gives you a fairly broad area, but still it
wouldn't be Beekeeping or Performing Arts or something which is simply not
related.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Galimba.
MS. GALIMBA: I respectfully disagree because to me going to college is
basically learning how to actually communicate and learning... I mean it is only
substituting for two years so it is not a huge amount, so you learn a lot in college
even if you major in such strange things as English Literature.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Bergin.
MR. BERGIN: Yeah, I would like to inject an experience relative to this
question. Of course Commissioner Todd and I share the privilege of having sons
that are in the department and if I had to reflectively talk to my son about his
major, he would probably come back and say if you really want to be a
productive, progressive fireman, get your degree in Culinary Arts. That's it.
Now, I absolutely agree with Commissioner Galimba. Have we forgotten the
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bachelor's degree and its worthiness? The fact that we had to go to institutions
that had walls and we had to attend and we had to dress properly and we had to
complete our examinations. Those four years or in most boy's case like mine, it
is five or six years for a bachelor's degree, the degree of maturity and the degree
of exposure and the degree of developing adult like manners in a working world, I
think is the real value of a bachelor's degree and I do not agree that we should
limit it to Fire Science. It's the adulthood that gives you that guiding light that a
bachelor's degree has provided us for a hundred years. That's it.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Roehrig.
MR. ROEHRIG: Oh, thank you. I never heard that there is a degree in Fire
Science until today. So I don't know who offers it or whoever does... when you
go to college what you get out of high school, I am going to be a Fireman? So it
is a learning experience to go to college and determine what you want to do in life
and to restrict that you can't, that you have to be going to Fire Science... too
much.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Chair Adams.
CHR. ADAMS: So, I have a couple of comments. These are minimums in the
Charter and it was made clear in the comments from the Chief and the Fire
Commission that they are minimums and that what we didn't want to do was
necessarily provide problems for, in the process...but that providing some degree,
some element of a foundational amount would be helpful and so that is what these
are designed to do.
I am frankly in complete agreement with Commissioners Galimba and Bergin,
and Roehrig when it comes to thinking about a bachelor's degree. I would also
indicate, I would also take a look at the number of years of experience that is a
requirement here, 12 or 14, substantial number of years in terms of a requirement
and I think that the reason that they have included the 14 years with a couple of
additional years, I don't think that those couple are intended to take the place of
the amount of time getting a bachelor's degree as much as it is to make sure that
somebody who is excellent at being a Fire Captain with that amount of time, can
apply even if they didn't have a bachelor's degree, but the idea of having a
bachelor's degree is designed to be a particular qualification because you have
actually done that and therefore that is an achievement of some kind and reflects
having done that work.
I would indicate for Commissioner Todd's benefit, that my daughter-in-law is a
Master of Fine Arts and a Police Lieutenant in the Orange County Sheriff s
Department, and one of the best Lieutenants that they have despite being a Master
of Fine Arts out of Philadelphia. So, anyway, I just think that these are
minimums. Clearly the identification by whatever selection committee is set up
by the Fire Commission when they are taking a look at prospective Fire Chiefs
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can obviously include those additional requirements, but for our purposes I would
like to leave it as it is in this particular proposal.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Todd.
MS. TODD: We only require five years of training and experience in law
enforcement for the Police Chief.
CHR. ADAMS: I haven't yet done that one.
MS. TODD: Okay, and so, for me the real issue is the substitution and I am not
sure and I guess I would ask whether... they have certain requirements that waive
years of experience on promotion to various positions and I am not sure whether it
is a degree in any field or whether there is a specific requirement that the degree
has to be in. That there is Fire Science and there is also Fire Administration that
you can get degrees in. And I was just throwing that out there because you have
all of these other departments that say you have to have a degree in a related field.
You can't have a Music degree and run certain departments. Like you know, you
can't run the Planning Department if your degree is in Music because it is not
related to the duties of that office, so I am just looking at consistency between the
requirements for Departments and I happen to think that almost any bachelor's
degree is probably a decent background because I went to law school and we had
Philosophy majors, we had Music majors, we had people from very different
backgrounds and success in law school and success as a lawyer was not related to
what your BA (Bachelor of Arts) was and there wasn't a requirement that the BA
had to be in a particular area to get in to law school. But I am just questioning the
12 and the 14 years' experience when that is so much more than you require in
other areas. I know where it is coming from because in the Fire Department to
get promoted to Battalion Chief, you have a significant number of years and I say
this because my son is a Battalion Chief and he had the waiver of years of
experience because he did have a degree in Fire Science as well as an AA in Fire
Science, so I was familiar with that, but I wasn't sure whether it was just having a
degree or whether it was a degree in a particular area that waived the number of
years and he has got, yeah, he's already got 14 years of experience. I am just
questioning why this is different than other departments more than anything else.
CHR. ADAMS: For me part of this comes from listening to the departments
right, and so not having served in those, but having served in the military, I felt a
little bit more accustomed to being able to look at the Fire Department and
potentially the Police Department because of the similarities, the perceived
similarities in that. And I mean, people get commissioned as Second Lieutenants
in the Army having done all kinds of degrees right? It has to do with their ability
and then the years of experience, of course they are able to use the training that
they have received or the education that they have received, but it is the years of
experience leading that becomes important and so I think that is, for me, I could
understand those years given the responsibility that comes with the position.
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That's why I didn't look so much at... I mean if the, if there was a desire to
reduce the number of years that obviously is not going to limit the Commission,
because the Commission can always add it if they decide to. But I didn't see that
it was over or really out of bounds even as a minimum when we are talking about
the Fire Chief position, so that is why I left that as they provided it to us.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Any further discussion? Yeah, I was just going to
add that as I recall, your bachelor's degree, half of those credits are required and
everybody pretty much had to take them you know, so your first two years,
everybody was sort of doing the same thing. You had to get through those classes
to make it to whatever your... your interest was. But if there is no further
discussion and without objection, we will take a voice vote on passing CA -24 for
Initial Approval. All of those in favor signify by saying "aye" (aye), any
opposed? Okay, motion passes 10-0 with Commissioner Hopkins excused.
Vote on Motion The motion to pass CA -24 on initial approval was carried by the following
To Approve CA -24 voice vote:
(Approved):
Ayes: Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Hamano,
Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd,
Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10
Noes: None.
Absent: Commissioner Hopkins —1
Excused: None.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Moving on to Communication No. 42:
Transmitting CA -25 for Initial Approval; Proposal to amend Section 6-7.5 and
repeal Section 6-7.6, relating to the Duties and Functions of the Windward and
Leeward Planning Commissions, to delete transitional provisions utilized during
the move from a single planning commission to a Leeward Planning Commission
and a Windward Planning Commission; as submitted by Commissioner Adams.
I would entertain a motion to approve for transmitting CA -25 for Initial Approval.
CHR. ADAMS: So moved.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: By Commissioner, Chair Adams, second by
Commissioner Galimba.
Chair Adams.
CHR. ADAMS: Thanks. This comes from the Planning Commissions, both
Windward and Leeward as well as from the Planning Department. It takes the,
essentially the transitional phrasing that was included in the initial Charter
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amendment that made these Commissions come about, establish them I guess is
the correct wording, and they were there because we already had a Planning
Commission in effect so the idea was hey, here are these transitional provisions so
there is nothing in there that, it really it just cleans up the wording so there is no
problem with any of this old information in here.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Galimba.
MS. GALIMBA: So thank you Commissioner Adams for doing this because that
has kind of been in the back of my head, so yeah, some very superfluous language
that needs to come out.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Any further discussion? Without objection, we will
take a voice vote. All of those in favor of passing CA -25 for Initial Approval
please signify by saying "aye" (aye), any opposed? Motion passes 10-0 with
Commissioner Hopkins excused.
Vote on Motion The motion to pass CA -25 on initial approval was carried by the following
To Approve CA -24 voice vote:
(Approved):
Ayes: Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Hamano,
Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd,
Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10
Noes: None.
Absent: Commissioner Hopkins —1
Excused: None.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Communication No. 43: Transmitting CA -26 for
Initial Approval; Proposal to amend Section 6-2.2, relating to Qualifications for
the Director of the Department of Public Works, to remove the requirement that
the Director be a registered professional engineer; as submitted by Commissioner
Adams. I would entertain a motion to approve for transmitting CA -26 for Initial
Approval.
CHR. ADAMS: So moved.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: By Chair Adams, second? Seconded by
Commissioner Todd.
Chair Adams.
CHR. ADAMS: Thanks. Given the conversation that we just had, this will be
interesting because this seems like this is taking away a qualification requirement
and why would I do that? When it comes to the Department of Public Works, or
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similar activities within a County, actually I should, I am not an engineer but I am
married to one. Former Corps of Engineer Colonel. She commanded three
different Corps of Engineer Districts, responsible for billions of dollars of
construction money in Iraq, and hundreds of people both in Philadelphia and
Seattle, regulations, you know, civil engineering responsibilities, all those kinds
of things, and because she doesn't have a PE (Professional Engineer), she cannot
be our County Director of Public Works. It is ridiculous. Now, are there
requirements for professional engineers within the Department of Public Works?
Absolutely. I get it. But does the Director have to be that particular individual?
The Director, when I take a look at the responsibilities for the Director, leadership
and management is a primary piece of that.
I then went and took a look at other places. Now this is the County of Hawai`i. A
special place, I get it. Right, but our Director of Public Works, the functions and
duties of that particular position are shared by folks in other places as well. Not
everybody requires that that individual have a Professional Engineer Registration.
It doesn't mean that they don't have to have engineering experience, clearly that
is useful. It doesn't mean that they don't have to have, I mean frankly in some
places they are not looking just for engineers. Sometimes they are looking for
other types of folks. And so for me, we... with putting this particular
qualification in the Charter again, it is a minimum. It can always be added by the
folks that are doing the searching. But by adding this, we are I think narrowing
the number of folks that we are looking at that can take this very important
position within the County. So, that's why this amendment.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Todd.
MS. TODD: Having been sued for not being an engineer, the Department of
Environmental Management and also having worked with... when I was on the
Council we lost our Chief Engineer Donna Kiyosaki to a move to O`ahu and I
think for a long period of time, I am trying to remember. I think it was under
Donna. Jiro Sumata effectively ran the department as the Deputy because we
didn't have a Chief Engineer. Now Jiro had been in Corps of Engineers in the
military and had done many construction projects but had not gotten the PE
license in Hawai`i, but he had like 20 years of experience doing projects and had
quite a reputation for his expertise and knowledge, and I think he ended up getting
stolen away by private entity ultimately when he moved to O`ahu, but I was very
comfortable with Jiro. He obviously knew what he was doing and had years of
experience in construction projects. He didn't have the PE and that is because at
the end of his military career, to go through the process of getting the PE license
was very onerous. Again, there is checks and balances in the appointment. It has
to go in front of the County Council, the County Council has to review someone's
record.
I looked at... because we have run this up the flag pole before, many jurisdictions
on the mainland, you do not have to be even an engineer to run a Public Works
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Department because they view the head of the department as really administering
the department and the fact that you have engineers and an engineering division
that works on specific engineering. What you... and my experience running
departments is that a lot of what you end up doing, depending on which
department, I would say in Environmental Management, 80% of my time was
consumed by personnel and contractual matters. Very little engineering issues
came up to the head. The only time you really want to look at it is long-range
vision. And so, even though I talked about Fire Science earlier and whether it
was a related degree, I generally like having more flexibility in the language of
the Charter for every department and rely on the checks and balances of the
appointment process because it is in a public forum, you present your credentials,
the County Council reviews and determines whether the experience you have is
related to the job you are being proposed for, and anyone who is a reasonable,
sane Mayor is not going to appoint someone who can't do the job because then
you know, his Administration will fail. And so, I support this language and I
think it's you know, about time and you will get opposition later from the
engineering profession I am sure.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Rice.
MS. RICE: I agree with that. In looking at some of the things that are required,
you would really need to be an architect and you would need to be a planner, so it
is a generalist job really, not a specific job because Public Works is so huge and
encompasses so much that has to be supported by technical people underneath the
Administrator.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Chair Adams.
CHR. ADAMS: I should make two points. One is, you'll note that there are no
comments from Department of Public Works. I was a little surprised that we
didn't get that but we may now because in their initial, when we had the
conversation with them if you may recall, I did ask the question about is there any
changes you would like in your portion of the Charter and the response was "no,
everything is fine the way it is", so we may see that. The second thing is that I
don't want it to be thought that I am changing this because I am trying to get my
wife a job okay? That is not the purpose of this. Alright, let's just make sure that
is on the record okay? Thanks.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Bergin.
MR. BERGIN: To again offer a counterpart, but before I do that, Commissioner
Todd, we are all very sympathetic with what you had to put up with, but as so
many of us could see, it was your administrative leadership that was called for
and that is what counts. And that's what counted, and again we have to look at
the over restrictive. But I am going to offer a counterpart and this is a matter of
fact. If we have fire suppression and a design of the mechanics of fire
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suppression in our department, the level of decision making isn't done by a
layman and not an engineer, and when you look at the degree of mechanical, of
water pressure, of water volume, that are demanded and over demanded in
situations like the people exactly across the street from my son's veterinary
hospital, the Fire Department insisted that he had to put in a second full hydrant.
He had to put in a 30,000 gallon mounted tank to deliver 2,000 gallons a minute
and there was no civil engineer related to that particular point and it is not over
with yet.
And that is the part that absolutely baffles me and I am not picking on the Fire
Department. I am saying that decisions like that have to go back to a qualified
engineer and I just say that really as a counterpart. There is a huge hole in where
we really need the advice of a civil engineer and that is just a counterpart and
sympathy for you two. Thank you.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Any further discussion? Commissioner Roehrig.
MR. ROEHRIG: How about something like minimum five years of experience in
administrative capacity or Public Works?
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Is that a motion to amend?
MR. ROEHRIG: You know I think there should be... I mean we were just
reading about how is going to be the Fire Captain and he's got to have 12 years of
experience and now you don't need any experience... so... but if ah...
CHR. ADAMS: Let me answer. So I did take a look at that to be honest and
when I went through the variety of places, the variety of Public Works
organizations in a variety of the places around the Country and including in our
own State jurisdiction right, so that is part of why you had this other piece right
here. Maui has taken that piece out right, but they don't have... all they have is
the five years of experience in an administrative capacity either in public service
or private business, or both. Both City and County of Honolulu and Kaua`i do
have... maintain the professional engineer requirement in theirs although theirs is
older than ours if I remember my reading of it. The... but in taking a look at
some of these other locations, my ability to find something that was going to
encompass all of what Public Works did as a phrase I had difficulty because of
the things, all the variety of things that the Department of Public Works is
supposed to do. How do you choose one thing that they are supposed to be... that
you would want that Director to be? And so that's why... because you could
have somebody who applies who has been in construction right, you could have
somebody who applies who has been an architect, or has been in wastewater for
those places that, where that falls underneath Public Works right? All of those
would be potentially capable of running a Department of Public Works because
they have had experience in those areas and then the Administrative piece is, they
have probably run more than one of those kinds of things and that is what makes
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them particularly capable, and so I just couldn't figure out... I am not saying that
it doesn't exist, I am just saying I couldn't figure out what that would look like to
put in here as a replacement if you will, for the phrase registered professional
engineer, which is why I just took it out and then left the five year administrative
capacity. I did look at whether administrative or supervisory. I did look at that.
It turns out it is just a synonym. They are the same thing, so.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Roehrig.
MR. ROEHRIG: Okay, how about I make a motion here that they have a
minimum of six years of experience in administrative capacity and Public Works.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Is there a second for that amendment?
MS. TODD: For discussion purposes, I second.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Okay. So, we are open to discussion on that
amendment.
MR. ROEHRIG: So it will have the Public Works in there, whatever it may be. I
mean if you are talking about just five years administrative experience, it can be
anything in the world. Absolutely nothing to do with Public Works. You pick
Joe Blow and you stick him as the head of the Public Works and he has absolutely
zero knowledge about Public Works and here we are talking about 14 years of
experience of Firemen to become Captain. I mean wow.
CHR. ADAMS: Just so I understand, I heard you say "and Public Works", you
said "in Public Works"?
MR. ROEHRIG: And, excuse me, A.N.D.
CHR. ADAMS: Okay. Got it.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Rice.
MS. RICE: I see the dilemma here. Because this is a huge job and it
encompasses many things so how you narrow down a person who is applying his
experience, unless we do something like a field... experience in a field related to
Public Works, now how do you define that? I don't know. But I can see there is
a... somehow we need something which I would agree with Commissioner
Roehrig, that gives this person some background that would be applicable to a job
in Public Works, running Public Works. But I haven't figured out what that is.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Todd.
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
MS. TODD: Obviously it is a sore spot with me. I am looking at the language for
the Department of Environmental Management which is a much smaller
department than Public Works, which has a much more finite area, it's
wastewater, recycling, solid waste, basically and for some strange reason
abandoned vehicles because that's part of recycling, I mean it's scrap metal. But
the language in Chapter X, it is page 23 of your County Charter, says "the director
shall have had a minimum of five years of administrative experience in a related
field and an engineering degree or a degree in a related field." And that is what
the whole lawsuit was about, because we argued that a law degree and the
experience of running of departments was a related field and that law was related
to running the department because it was enforcement of EPA (Environmental
Protection Agency) and State laws and regulations and that ended up all the way
to the Supreme Court, but I was thinking, we have now taken with this language
at Public Works, and basically made it theoretically easier to become the Director
of Public Works than it is to become the Director of Environmental Management,
which has a much more refined scope.
So something like have a minimum of five years of administrative experience in a
related field, that could be construction, that could be architecture, it could be
even planning you know, but something related to the duties of the department.
And I would be much more comfortable with some language that said the five
years of experience in a related field. It still gives you that flexibility, but it says
that you can't just have five years of experience running a law office, five years of
experience running Parks and Recreation, because it is not necessarily, that
experience is not necessarily transferable to supervising subdivisions and
construction projects. So... and I recognize that the language on Maui is much
simpler, and the language in many other jurisdictions on the mainland is very
open ended because what I found on the mainland when I did research on Public
Works, is that one of the preferred degrees was a degree in Public Administration,
not engineering, but Public Administration. People with Business Administration
backgrounds were also highly sought after just because... and there had to be
some experience, but basically they could... they saw the department and the
functions of the department like running a business, like running a construction
company basically. But to have language that has... just so open-ended, I think
leaves you open to problems if there isn't some connection to the duties of the
department.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Chair Adams.
CHR. ADAMS: I would be supportive of that phrasing "in a related field". Point
of order?
MS. TODD: We have a motion on the floor which right now says "six years of
experience in an administrative capacity and public works." So I think we got to
look at whether that language takes care of what we want. And I guess public
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works would be defined by... I am trying to quickly find the Department of
Public Works and see if I have a description of powers and duties...
MR. HENRICKS: Chair Adams or Chair Zelko.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Yes.
MR. HENRICKS: May I please try to expedite? I think I know where we are
headed.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Yeah.
MR. HENRICKS: If no one minds. So powers, duties, and functions are not
described in the Charter itself, so it probably
MS. TODD: Okay.
MR. HENRICKS: It is prescribed by ordinance and I know that this is not on the
motion that is on the floor, but that hasn't been dealt with...
MS. TODD: Okay.
MR. HENRICKS: But if you wanted to, you could say "in a field related to the
duties, powers, and functions of the Department of Public Works" and then you
would have to then have some trust that those powers, duties, and functions as
prescribed by ordinance by the Council of course would naturally relate to, or be
beneficial for the operations of the County as far as the needs at Public Works.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: So do we need to maybe vote on...
MR. HENRICKS: Something needs to be done to the motion on the floor, which
is to amend as stated by Commissioner Roehrig.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Okay. Okay. So...
MR. HENRICKS: If it is going to be, if the wording is going to be altered this
substantially, it would be best to withdraw your motion and then insert a new
motion, propose a new motion.
If I am understanding Ms. Leithead-Todd, the motion would read, do you have a
preference for the five or six years?
MS. TODD: I have a preference for the five because I think other than the Fire
Department, five years is consistent.
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MR. HENRICKS: So, Mr. Roehrig, Commissioner Roehrig if you withdrew your
motion, I believe the motion that Ms. Leithead-Todd is interested in introducing,
would be "the director would have a minimum of five years of experience in an
administrative capacity in a field related to the duties, powers, and functions of
the Department of Public Works."
MR. ROEHRIG: Okay, sounds good to me. I will withdraw my motion and...
MS. TODD: I will withdraw the second.
MR. ROEHRIG: And then I will make the motion as he said, five years of
experience... administration and Public Works and the language that he had.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Do we have a second? Commissioner Rice
seconded.
Okay now we can open it up for discussion.
MR. HENRICKS: May I read that into the record now that that...
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Yes.
MR. HENRICKS: Motion is on the floor?
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Yes.
MR. HENRICKS: So the final sentence of 6-2.2 if amended would read "The
director shall have had a minimum of five years of experience in an
administrative capacity in a field related to the duties, powers, and functions of
the department of public works."
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Any discussion on this amendment? Okay, without
objection, we can take a voice vote on this amendment. All those in favor of the
amendment to CA -26, please signify by saying "aye" (aye), anyone opposed?
Okay, the amendment passes 10-0 with Commissioner Hopkins excused.
Vote on Motion The motion to amend CA -26 was carried by the following voice vote:
To Amend CA -26
(Approved): Ayes: Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Hamano,
Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd,
Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10
Noes: None.
Absent: Commissioner Hopkins - 1
Excused: None.
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MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Now we can go back to the original motion to pass
CA -26 for Initial Approval. Is there any further discussion on this?
CHR. ADAMS: I support CA -26 as amended.
MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Okay, so without objection, we will take a voice
vote on passing CA -26 for Initial Approval. All those in favor please signify by
saying "aye" (aye), anyone opposed? Okay, motion passes 10-0 with
Commissioner Hopkins excused.
Vote on Motion The motion to pass CA -26, as amended, on initial approval was carried by the
To Approve CA -26, following voice vote:
As amended
(Approved): Ayes: Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Hamano, Rice, Roehrig,
Saquing, Springer, Todd, Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10
Noes: None.
Absent: Commissioner Hopkins - 1
Excused: None.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you very much Vice -Chair Zelko-Schlueter. I reclaim my
Chair responsibilities.
Relinquish Chair: At this time, Acting Chair Zelko-Schlueter relinquished the chair back to
Chair Adams.
CHR. ADAMS: Item No. 13 under New Business, Communication No. 44:
Transmitting CA -27 for Initial Approval, A Proposal to amend Section 10-15,
Public Access, Open Space, and Natural Resources Preservation Fund, to add
language to place an emphasis on the acquisition of easements and that the
County may exercise eminent domain to acquire properties and easements for the
purpose of this fund, as submitted by Commissioner Roehrig.
Is there a motion to transmit CA -27 for Initial Approval? It has been moved by
Commissioner Roehrig and seconded by Commissioner Todd.
Commissioner Roehrig.
MR. ROEHRIG: Thank you.
CHR. ADAMS: I am sorry. Yup, we definitely want to listen to you.
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MR. ROEHRIG: Listening to the testimony today, it sounds like that the word
eminent domain is a cuss word, so... and it does bother a lot of people, so I am
not at all opposed to taking that out. I don't think it should draw that kind of
attention. It is to help in making this functional but I don't know how to do that.
Do I have to make a motion to...
CHR. ADAMS: I would move, I would entertain a motion to amend CA -27 with
the amendment being to remove or delete subsection...
MR. ROEHRIG: (h)
CHR. ADAMS: (h)
MR. ROEHRIG: I'll so move.
CHR. ADAMS: Is there a second? It has been moved by Commissioner Roehrig
and seconded by Commissioner Springer, to delete subsection (h) from CA -27.
Any discussion? Seeing none, all in favor of the amendment please signify by
saying "aye" (aye), any opposed? Motion passes 10-0 with Commissioner
Hopkins excused.
Vote on Motion The motion to amend CA -27 was carried by the following voice vote:
To Amend CA -27
(Approved): Ayes: Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Hamano,
Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd,
Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10
Noes: None.
Absent: Commissioner Hopkins - 1
Excused: None.
CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Roehrig.
MR. ROEHRIG: Thank you. I think Toni Withington had quite a bit to say and I
think she is very experienced and what she did say was looking into easements
was the preferred method and that is exactly the wording we have here in
determining what to buy with PONC funds. People were testifying well this is
already what they are doing, so this doesn't you know, it is not changing anything
but it is putting an emphasis and you know I have it down on what I put down
before. I mean some of the properties, well let me slow down here. We got
passed out the County public PONC properties... there's 10 listed and not one
easement. Not one okay, and a lot of this is just beach property and the attractive
thing about this is access to the beach, which you can get with a 50 foot or a 100
foot easement around the shoreline and that is the attractive part. They purchase
the entire property, thousands of more acres of land that is not used okay, so you
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will be able to take the PONC funds and really expand them tremendously to get
what you want so when there is a piece of property and there is certain things on
it... "I like this", "I like that"... well, then you buy an easement. It is non-
exclusive so the owner of the property still can use it which makes an easement
cheaper. If you want exclusive easement then no one else can, I mean just the
public can use, well, the owner can use a public anyway since it would be non-
exclusive. The owner still can use it, the price is going to be minimal compared
to purchasing the entire property. The money would go a lot further. We bought
a lot of property that has no use. So anyway... and if... another possibility... you
can buy an easement over the entire piece of property instead of the property
itself. That means you have access to the entire property but you don't own it. So
it is even cheaper that way, so you could, if it had some value, you could purchase
an easement for the entire property and have access to it and still you don't have
to buy the whole piece of property, but anyway, after seeing not one easement, I
did hear or read, or heard somewhere that they are looking into purchasing an
easement, that's a good idea you know? But it hasn't happened yet, and so, if you
can get what you want on a piece of property that is the enticing part, that is
useful etc. etc. and get it by way of an easement, well then do that instead of
buying the entire property.
Let's see what else... if I had anything written down. Ah, that's it for now.
Thank you.
CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. Commissioner Saquing.
MS. SAQUING: I just, I just wanted a little bit of clarity. So in subsection (f),
just prior to your suggestion, Mr. Roehrig "the fund shall be used for acquisition
of land and easements and shall not be used for development, maintenance or for
any purpose other than as provided in this section." And then we are adding (g)
which for me kind of sounds like it is already addressed in subsection (f) because
subsection (f)"shall be used for acquisition of land and easements", but you are
just taking it one step further and saying that whenever practical that we should,
the County "shall seek to acquire", which to me is the same thing as acquisition,
"an easement as a preferred method to accomplish the objectives." So, I guess my
question is, you are just wanting to take it one step further to go that route
first or ...
MR. ROEHRIG: Well, the Section allows for purchasing the entire property or
purchasing an easement under 10-15 and so, I am saying before you go and buy
the whole property, look in to see whether an easement will accomplish the
purpose of PONC first and if you can get it done under an easement then you
purchase an easement, but if the easement won't do it, then you need to buy the
entire property then that is the next step and then you buy the entire property. I
don't know if answered your question but...
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CHR. ADAMS: Okay. Thanks. Is there any other discussion? Okay, seeing
none, we will have a roll call vote on CA -27, I am sorry yeah, CA -27 as amended.
MR. HENRICKS: Mr. Bergin (inaudible), Ms. Galimba (inaudible), Mr. Hamano
(aye), Mr. Hopkins (absent), Ms. Leithead-Todd (aye), Ms. Rice (no), Mr.
Roehrig (aye), Ms. Saquing (aye), Ms. Springer (aye), Ms. Zelko-Schlueter (aye),
Chair Adams (aye). Chair Adams, you have 7 votes in favor.
Vote on Motion The motion to pass CA -27, as amended, on initial approval was carried by the
To Approve CA -27, following roll call vote:
As amended
(Approved): Ayes:
REPORTS:
Noes:
Absent:
Excused:
Commissioners Hamano, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer,
Todd, Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams — 7
Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, and Rice - 3
Commissioner Hopkins - 1
None.
CHR. ADAMS: The motion to transmit CA -27 as amended for Initial Approval
passes. Thank you.
The Chair directed the Commission to proceed to the next order of business,
Reports.
CHR. ADAMS: We have none.
REFERRALS FOR The Chair directed the Commission to proceed to the next order of business,
EXECUTIVE Executive Session.
SESSION:
AGENDA ITEMS
FOR NEXT
REGULARLY
SCHEDULED
MEETING:
CHR. ADAMS: We had referrals for Executive Session during the session. I
don't believe we have any at the moment.
The Chair directed the Commission to proceed to the next order of business,
agenda items for next regularly scheduled meeting
CHR. ADAMS: Any suggestions from Commissioners on future agenda items?
Okay, seeing none, I have a few comments. I mentioned before that the ad hoc
committee piece, I think that we probably should include in the April regular
meeting agenda, discussion about the ad hoc committee that has to do with putting
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
together the report of findings and in particular the ballot, proposed ballot
measures that will have made it through second reading by the time we get there
and we should... the rules call for an ad hoc committee to meet. I saw them
today, that's why... go ahead.
MR. HENRICKS: Quick question.
CHR. ADAMS: Please.
MR. HENRICKS: Ballot questions, report to the Council, two different subject
matters or requirements of the Commission.
CHR. ADAMS: So if we go to page seven on our rules, proposed amendments to
the Charter, it takes a look... let's see... here we are. Number..., yeah, okay, so
any proposal..., I see, so that you would say the... "any proposal", number... it's
VII, under 10(c) "Any proposal that passes second reading shall be submitted to
an ad hoc committee for proposing the form in which the approved Charter
Amendment shall be submitted to the electorate including proposed ballot
language." That ad hoc committee wouldn't necessarily be responsible for putting
together the report to the Council.
MR. HENRICKS: No.
CHR. ADAMS: But it would be responsible for putting together the proposed
ballot language.
MR. HENRICKS: Correct.
CHR. ADAMS: That would then come to the Clerk's office.
MR. HENRICKS: Correct.
CHR. ADAMS: Okay. So I would like to, I think that the establishment of that
committee during our April meeting gives us sufficient amount of time to be
working on that. I mean we can be working on that even with the...
MR. HENRICKS: Working on the...
CHR. ADAMS: Proposed ballot language.
MR. HENRICKS: May I make a recommendation?
CHR. ADAMS: Please.
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
MR. HENRICKS: I don't believe there would be much benefit to start the
process of establishing ballot questions until you have your proposals in their final
forms and they pass second reading.
CHR. ADAMS: No, no, that would be, the ad hoc committee would only
consider when they have passed second reading.
MR. HENRICKS: Then what would be the benefit of establishing the committee
now when we are several steps...
CHR. ADAMS: Because we will be...
MR. HENRICKS: Away from...
CHR. ADAMS: Second reading, we are going to have some that are going to
pass second reading in April.
MR. HENRICKS: Correct, but ballot questions aren't due until over a year from
now, so I am just wondering what the urgency to form that committee now...
CHR. ADAMS: Because we may not meet again after our August meeting, and
so, the idea of putting together those things and being able to hand them off by
then, I mean to gather, I mean this is a conversation I guess for a staff meeting...
MR. HENRICKS: Perhaps.
CHR. ADAMS: Okay, so that is the first thing. So we can talk about whether we
want to add that or not. So you heard sausage being made right then in terms of
how that is going to be worked out. The second thing is, is that... and I warned
maybe threatened Mr. Henricks with this...
MR. HENRICKS: The latter.
CHR. ADAMS: Yeah, which was up until this point, we have been thinking that
we would have the ballot measures, the proposed Charter Amendments
considered in an election that would be held in November of 2020. By statute we
have the authority to establish a special election to consider these as well, and as I
have taken a look at the fact that we will be finished with the purpose of having
gone through the Council and have the Council return with their alternatives, and
us having looked at those alternatives, and provided to the Clerk by the end of
August, the proposed ballot measures, or at least the Charter Amendments that
need to be written up as ballot measures, we will have 15 months between that
time and the general election in 2020, and so it has occurred to me that maybe we
should try and establish a special election maybe in November of 2019. One that
allows for folks that have been paying attention to know that it is going to be held
reasonably close to when it would be done and through the Council and back to
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
the Clerk and then we would be... and then there is the other part where we will
not be held on to this Commission then for another full year as well. I think that's
less of an issue.
It is more of an issue to me is we would be sitting around with this stuff for a
year, doing what with it? So have been thinking about doing that. It is a very
quick turnaround, special election if we held one in November, would be you
know 2019, would require 45 days, in the Charter Amendment it is 45 days...
brochure and information to the newspapers and that turns out to be September
20th or 19th or something like that, so it would be less than a month or so from
when we would turn it to the Clerk to the time when we would have some type of
brochure that would be available to the electorate. The other alternative is to say
"well, let's have it instead of pushing it in November, let's try to have a special
election for these Charter Amendments in 2020 but just not wait all the way until
November", and that is a possibility. According to statute there is really a 30 day
period where we would not be authorized to hold that special election and that is
the 30 days prior to the filing, the final date for filing of candidates which is like
June 5th or something of 2020, so essentially in the month of May, we can't do it.
Any other time, we could decide to do it.
There is the expense that is involved in running that.
MR. YOSHIMOTO: Mr. Chairman, I am going to, I need to interject.
CHR. ADAMS: Oh...
MR. YOSHIMOTO: I mean it is one thing to make an announcement or a
suggestion but I think you are delving far too much in detail, like you are actually
going to invite discussion and the public would have had no notice that you are
actually making this...
CHR. ADAMS: Okay.
MR. YOSHIMOTO: Suggestion.
CHR. ADAMS: Having this, well...this is what I am thinking. But we are not
voting on it. The idea would be to include it as a part of the agenda. If it is a
clarifying question can she ask a question?
MR. HENRICKS: I really think you would be better not to do this right now.
CHR. ADAMS: Okay.
MR. HENRICKS: If it is a suggestion for an item on the next agenda that is fine.
It will be on there, available for public discourse, discussion...
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
CHR. ADAMS: Anyway, when we talk about the calendar, I am thinking about
doing this, so this will be something that we can talk about. So I apologize, I did,
I went way over. Alright...
MR. ROEHRIG: (inaudible).
CHR. ADAMS: We are not quite there yet. Not quite there yet.
MR. ROEHRIG: But I got a second.
CHR. ADAMS: Alright. Moving on to announcements.
MEETING The Chair directed the Commission to proceed to the next order of
ANNOUNCEMENT: business, Meeting Announcement.
CHR. ADAMS: Our next regular meetings. Now, I would like you to look at the
calendars that we have. We know that we have our public hearings March 25th
through April 4th. I believe that is right. Our next regularly scheduled meeting
would be that following Friday. That makes it very difficult in my mind, to do
anything with the information from the public hearings. I would like to suggest
that we move the April meeting to the 26th. Why not the 19th? Because, that is a
holiday being Good Friday, and we are not able to do it.
We also looked at the days prior to that. It turns out the days prior to the 19th are
budget days, so the 26th would be... would allow us one, to get in as you know I
identified April as pretty much, did I say August? I meant April. I apologize.
Okay, so April would allow then, until April 15th, for any additional final
proposals right, so it gives you that additional week after the feedback from public
hearings if there are additional ones that you want to do, it gives us that additional
period of time to be able to get that in. So, April 26th would be my suggestion for
the next regular meeting and then move the meeting in May to the 17th, that gives
us a period of time between the 26th and our meeting in June which would be the
regular second Friday in June and it would kind of be splitting the difference. So,
suggestion... the suggestion is April 26th and May 17th, same locations, 11:00
a.m. etc.
Commissioner Saquing.
MS. SAQUING: I am going to recommend not the 20. Well, I am not going to
be here, I am on O `ahu, plus it is Merrie Monarch week, you know it is a
Hawaiian holiday. But how about earlier in the week of the 15th? Is that
problematic?
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
CHR. ADAMS: Yes, because all of those days are budget related. Council will
be meeting all on budget. We won't have staff.
MS. SAQUING: Oh.
CHR. ADAMS: And that is why, and I understand. So here is the deal with the
26th, if we have it during the day, I understand Merrie Monarch trust me, we saw
this as well. It would be in Hilo, yes, it would be in Hilo and the idea would be
that we would be done in time for people to get in line. So...
MS. SAQUING: I am still not going to be here at all.
CHR. ADAMS: I know you are going to be in O`ahu, so... anyway, holding it on
the 12th essentially doesn't allow for any time between public hearings and...
because we have to have the agenda out the Friday before all that information
would need to be done by essentially the first day of public hearings. None of
that makes any sense.
Commissioner Todd.
MS. TODD: Can we start earlier than 11:00?
CHR. ADAMS: On what day?
MS. TODD: On the 26th of April.
CHR. ADAMS: Yeah, I don't know, I mean it depends on access, but it would
seem to me that we could do that.
MS. TODD: Because I am just not sure how many people we are going to have
show up to testify because that is the thing, because it is after the public hearings
and if we have 40 people show up at three minutes a piece, that that will eat...
CHR. ADAMS: Right.
MS. TODD: Up several hours.
CHR. ADAMS: It would.
MS. TODD: There is the alternative of doing it on Thursday, the 25th. What does
that do to everybody? So doing it Thursday the 25th, yes, Commissioner Saquing.
MS. SAQUING: Sorry, I have in my real job life, I have my board meeting that
night.
CHR. ADAMS: You mean, Wednesday the 24th?
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
MS. SAQUING: That's good.
MR. HENRICKS: No can do.
MS. SAQUING: Who asked you Jon?
MR. HENRICKS: I am allowed to be the arbiter of certain things.
CHR. ADAMS: Alright, do we have room on...
MR. HENRICKS: No can do.
CHR. ADAMS: Yeah. So essentially its Thursday or Friday is what is available
on that week.
MS. SAQUING: How about early Thursday?
CHR. ADAMS: Yeah, we can do Thursday you know, nine o'clock? That would
be the 25th. Alright so the way we would do this is we would need to have a
motion to suspend the rules and then we could identify the dates for the next two
regularly scheduled meetings being April 25th and assuming that May 17th is okay
with everybody, May 17th.
Alright, I think I have a motion. Are you seconding it? Alright. So we have a
motion from Commissioner Bergin to suspend the rules and second by
Commissioner Galimba. Do I need to discuss?
MR. HENRICKS: No. Not allowed.
CHR. ADAMS: Thanks. All in favor of the motion to suspend, please signify by
saying "aye" (aye), any opposed? Alright, so as a result when we do that we are
now suspending the rules so that we can change the regularly scheduled meeting
dates and probably best that we vote on this or not?
MR. HENRICKS: I think you just did with the rule suspension.
CHR. ADAMS: Great. Alright, so next regularly scheduled meeting will be
Thursday, April 25th, 2019, time is 9:30 a.m. okay? That allows folks from this
side to get there? 9:30 a.m., okay, you are already up. I don't know what you are
worried about, so. And that will be in the Hilo Council Chambers and then the
following meeting would be May 17th here in Kona at 11:00 a.m. Is 11:00 okay?
MS. TODD: When is May?
CHR. ADAMS: May 17th, that is a Friday.
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
MR. HENRICKS: Would it be prudent perhaps to decide the May meeting at the
conclusion of the...if the April 25th meeting actually does conclude? Or, I can see
you want to plan ahead, but I am just throwing that out there that not knowing
what happens in meetings, maybe committing to a May meeting now might not be
in the Commission's best interest, or it could be in its better interest. I just throw
that out there.
CHR. ADAMS: Fine. We will go with just the April 25th. I don't want to make
my Analyst upset. But if my predilection to go with May 17th, I think that gives
us an additional period of time between meetings to be able to manage that.
Okay, well, but we will handle that next meeting in April. Okay, so...
Commissioner Saquing.
MS. SAQUING: I just wanted to make an announcement and thank one of our
staff members that... can I do that now?
CHR. ADAMS: You may.
MS. SAQUING: Awesome. She's not here, but I don't know how many of you
look at this Table of Charter Sections Affected by Amendments but Leslie puts
this together and I always look at this because it kind of gives a timeline of how
things have progressed through our Commission meetings so shouting out to
Leslie for her hard work because she does this. Thank you.
CHR. ADAMS: Absolutely. Okay, the next time we will be getting together is
March 25th, public hearings. Again, if you have any issues that you would like to
resolve regarding logistics of getting there etc. please get with Shannon to help
with that and I entertain a motion to adjourn. The motion was by Commissioner
Zelko and the second was somewhere down there, I wasn't sure. Commissioner
Todd. All in favor (aye), meeting adjourned.
Vote on Motion There being no further business, at 3:43 p.m. Commissioner Zelko moved that
Adjourn the meeting be adjourned. Seconded by Commissioner Todd and carried by
(Approved): the following voice vote:
Ayes: Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Hamano,
Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd,
Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10
Noes: None.
Absent: Commissioners Hopkins —1
Excused: None .
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Hawai`i County Charter Commission -9 March 8, 2019
Commission Approval: April 25, 2019
'firfiDituglass Shipman Adams, Chair
:-2020 Hawaii County Charter Commission
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