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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMIN CHARTER 2019-04-25 (2018-2020)Hawaii County Charter Commission 10th Session Council Chambers, Hawai`i County Building 25 Aupuni Street, Ste. 1401 Hilo, Hawai`i April 25, 2019 CALL TO The regular meeting of the Hawai`i County Charter Commission was called to ORDER: order at 9:35 a.m., in the Council Chambers, Hilo, by Mr. Douglass Shipman Adams, Chair. ROLL CALL: Present: Mr. Douglass Shipman Adams, Chair Ms. Jennifer Zelko-Schlueter, Vice Chair Ms. Michelle Galimba, Commissioner (arrived at 9:41 a.m. and left at 2:43 p.m.) Mr. Paul K. Hamano, Commissioner Mr. Kevin D. Hopkins, Commissioner (left at 2:04 p.m.) Ms. Sarah H. Rice, Commissioner Mr. Christopher John Imiloa Roehrig, Commissioner Ms. Marcia A. K. Saquing, Commissioner (left at 2:41 p.m.) Ms. Donna Mae Springer, Commissioner Ms. Bobby Jean Leithead Todd, Commissioner Absent: Mr. William Carthage Bergin, Commissioner Also Present: Mr. J Yoshimoto, Commission Attorney Mr. Jon Henricks, Commission Analyst Ms. Shannon Magnuson, Commission Secretary Ms. Wendy Baez, Legislative Assistant to Council Vice Chair (Kona Courtesy Site) CHR. ADAMS: Welcome to the 10th session of the County of Hawai`i Charter Commission for 2018-2020. The time is 9:35 a.m. on Thursday, April 25, 2019. I would ask you all please to silence any coms devices that you have. I will set the example. Let's call the meeting to order. Mr. Henricks if you could call the roll please. MR. HENRICKS: Mr. Bergin (absent), Ms. Galimba (late), Mr. Hamano (here), Mr. Hopkins (here), Ms. Leithead-Todd (here), Ms. Rice (here), Mr. Roehrig (here), Ms. Saquing (here), Ms. Springer (here), Ms. Zelko-Schlueter (here). Chair Adams (here). Chair Adams, you currently have nine members in attendance. Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 STATEMENTS FROM THE PUBLIC ON AGENDA ITEMS: HUGH ONO: The Chair directed the Commission to proceed to the next order of business, Statements from the Public on Agenda Items. CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. I know that Commissioner Bergin is excused today and that Commissioner Galimba is going to be slightly late, so I appreciate all the Commissioners for being here today. We have statements for the... we will start with our Statements from the Public. I would ask Mr. Ono and also Ms. Harden please to come to the table. Again, if you could please provide your name, the agenda item or items that you are speaking to, it's a three minute limit for one single agenda item. Anything more than that is a five minute limit, without objection. Proposal No. CA -26 in opposition. MR. ONO: My name is Hugh Ono. I am representing myself and all the engineers in the world I guess, but Chairman Adams and members of the Charter Commission, I did submit written testimony but I would like to enhance it a bit. This subject matter is very dear, passionate, and important to me and we are talking about the potential of removing the requirement for the PE (Professional Engineer) requirement for the Director of Public Works. Let me start off by adding that you know, doctors take the Hippocratic Oath to provide the level of treatment that we in the public take... expect... also, when you go to a lawyer, you would expect to use a lawyer who has passed their Bar Exam and not an unlicensed lawyer. While in the case of the engineers it is the same thing. When you take the PE license, primarily what is the purpose of the PE license is to provide for the safety, health, and welfare of the public. And so, it is important to understand that when the PE Exam is put together, it is not an exam to test the engineer's excellence. The measure of the exam is to test minimal competency of engineers that practice so that they can perform at a level that doesn't jeopardize public safety, health, and welfare. I might also add that in addition to passing the exam, there is another exam that you have to take so that one understands their duty to the public with regard to safety, health, and you know your conduct in that matter is very, very, important. I just watched a program on PBS (Public Broadcasting Service) the other night about attorneys and misconduct and that kind of thing and I was surprised that they go through extensive training on providing the level of service that is expected of attorneys to provide for good customer service to their clients. And with that, I would further suggest that as an alternate, instead of removing the requirement, that if the difficulty is finding candidates with the PE license, is to have the position filled on an interim or an acting basis until someone can be filled because basically you are looking for someone to fill that role and if you can't find one... and I understand the difficulty, there is a shortage of engineers in Page 2 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 the nation right now and even for our company. We are you know, still hunting for engineers all the time. End of statement. CHR. ADAMS: Thank you Sir. If I could ask Mr. Vicente please to come to the table. Ms. Harden. MR. ONO: Pau yeah? Okay. Thank you. CORY HARDEN: Minutes and Comm. No. 46 commenting, Proposal No. CA -27 in opposition, and Proposal No. CA -18 in support. MS. HARDEN: Good morning. Thank you for your service on the Commission. Couple items. One is the minutes. As you know on March 8th there were technical problems and it was kind of hard for people in Kona to hear people in Hilo but now you folks have read the minutes. So I request that you folks state that if you still are comfortable with your votes from March 8th now that you have read the minutes and maybe caught some things that you didn't catch on March 8th. On Communication 46 regarding a special election, just some comments. If we have lots and lots of amendments that could kind of get lost in the general election, it might be worth it you know, to have a special election but I hope you folks can research how many people are likely to vote in the special election. Would it be just a dismal turnout, and I wonder what the cost is compared to the cost of folding it in to the general election. Also on CA -18 for the 2% Maintenance Fund, I support this and I support Debbie Hecht's language that she has added regarding specific duties approved as part of a business plan and I support the maintenance fund so the special places can be kept safe and healthful, and in a condition where people can really enjoy and take advantage of them and that way we will reap the benefits of our investment. If people are paid for their work, they can then recruit, organize, and support unpaid volunteers so the volunteer energy will go a lot further and it is also good to have a few more sources of income in remote areas. And last, CA -27 regarding easements as a preferred method for acquiring 2% land, it is a commendable effort to save money, but as Brenda Ford described last time, unfortunately people take advantage of easements and they block them all the time so sometimes it is better to get the whole piece of land and it might be best to leave County staff some flexibility in how they acquire land. Thank you. CHR. ADAMS: Thank you very much. I note that Commissioner Galimba has joined us at this time. I would ask that Mr. Sensenig please join us at the table. Mr. Vicente please. Page 3 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 DWIGHT VICENTE: Communication Nos. 1, 2, 7, 9, and 11, commenting. MR. VICENTE: Good Morning, my name is Dwight Vicente representing the Hawaiian Kingdom. Communication 36, I am doing the real property tax appeal based on the great divide. The Joint Resolution of 1898 where one million seven hundred fifty thousand acres which was not under King Kalakaua's 25 year lease was illegally ceded to the United States and the lease lands which are being illegally developed right now for urban use or even subdividing them to smaller parcels than what they were originally leased out under Kalakaua's 25 year lease program. The County is trying and the State is trying to assume jurisdiction over the lands that they don't have jurisdiction over. See what... the one million seven hundred fifty thousand acres became the territory of Hawai`i in 1920 became Hawaiian Homes, in 1959 Hawaiian Homes/State of Hawai`i by Compact and the County is a subdivision of the State of Hawai`i meaning Hawaiian Home Lands only. What you are doing is assuming jurisdiction by claiming the zoning change through the Land Use Commission and the County during their planning, general plan, and then they are subdividing them and using that to raise revenue by land speculation. Well, you got to remember, you cannot speculate on lands that Native Hawaiians still have rights to and not the lease lands... still had Native Tenant Rights attached to it. And they were under contract by the Hawaiian Kingdom and there was never... illegally ceded. So the question of the jurisdiction of the County Charter stating that the County is the whole island, I don't think so. It is only the lands and should be limited to the lands for now that are designated Hawaiian Home Lands only. Not the whole island. So my real property tax appeal is based on the limits on the Hawaiian Home's Commission Act which is Hawaiian Homes only and the County cannot assume jurisdiction beyond that. And I am moving on to 1, 7, 9, and 11. These are based again on the great divide of 1898, the Joint Resolution which illegally ceded to the United States the one million seven hundred fifty thousand acres that became the Territory of Hawai`i, Hawaiian Homes and 1959 the State of Hawai`i. There is no amendment to the... that, and there was illegally ceded... ah, became incorporated under Article Four, Section Three, Clause Two of the U.S. (United States) Constitution. No amendments. Marbury vs. Madison. You cannot assume stuff that is not amended into the Constitution. Here there is no amendment. And then you have Downes vs. Bidwell, the U.S. is arguing in the Federal Court that they want to be like the Kingdoms in Europe, well there is no amendment for that but the Court had approved that and now the U.S. has gone globally. They are in every country. There's incorporated and unincorporated territories. Unincorporated includes South Korea, Japan, Philippines, Guam, Samoa, Micronesia, Panama Zone, Guantanamo, Cuba used to be, but it broke free, ah... Virgin Isles, Puerto Rico, Germany, Spain, Turkey, Middle East... everywhere where you see the U.S. military and that is... how you can tell that is read the rape case that took place in Page 4 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 Okinawa, what the U.S. said. The rape happened off base but the U.S. is claiming that Okinawa is an unincorporated territory of the U.S. Under Article Four, Section Three, Clause Two, no amendment. So it doesn't affect only the Hawaiian Kingdom. It affects a lot of countries. Just that the one million seven hundred fifty thousand acres in 1898 was incorporated into Article Four, Section Three, Clause Two, no amendment, so that is problematic. So there's constitutional questions and I believe you have Corporation Counsel to answer those riddles about that. So with that, I will reserve the rights of this Kingdom under the Queen's Protest of January 17, 1893 against U.S. Minister Stevens that has yet to make its way to the U.S. Supreme Court, Article Three, Section Two, Clause Two, original but limited jurisdiction. The other one is the 1875 Reciprocity Treaty that never was. King Kalakaua and the U.S. President did not sign it and the other one going back to 1820 President Monroe appointed John C. Jones as an agent for the U.S. and he was in charge of the missionary family and the U.S. Navy. Remember there is no treaty back then in 1820 and in 1826 a naval officer did the treaty which is not authorized under U.S. Constitution. Thank you. CHR. ADAMS: Thank you Sir. Ms. Hecht if you could please come to the table. After Mr. Sensenig, we will go to Kona for our testifiers there. Sir. DOUG SENSENIG: Proposal No. CA -18 and CA -27, commenting. MR. SENSENIG: Thank you very much. I am Doug Sensenig from Waimea. I am a former attorney and I have been involved in land conservation since the late 1980's as an attorney, volunteer, and as an Executive Director of two land trusts. I am here today to speak to CA -18 and CA -27. I want to thank you all for the hard work you have been doing in the effort to improve the Charter. And another big thank you to Debbie Hecht and Brenda Ford for their dedication to this island and this community, evidenced by their passion to continuously improve the operation of the 2% Land Fund and the Maintenance Fund. Partially through their care and desire for continuous improvement, the 2% Land Fund has enjoyed massive support from the voters of Hawai`i Island even through difficult economic times. I am here to urge you to approve the proposed change to CA -18 that allows the Maintenance Fund to provide money to pay people for the stewardship of lands protected by the fund. As you probably know, only nine percent of all monies in the Maintenance Fund were awarded to stewardship non -profits in the last six years. The stewardship non -profits have not been able to keep up with the work that needs to be done. A full-time staff position, or a staff person in addition to existing PONC (Public Access, Open Space, and Natural Resources Preservation Commission) staff can facilitate and coordinate stewardship efforts as well as leverage community involvement. Page 5 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 The 2% Land Fund contemplates permanent protection of exceptional land for the benefit of the people of Hawai`i Island. That permanence requires different thinking about how the protected land is to be managed. We have all heard the refrain, the County can't manage the land it already has, how can we protect more? It is a good question and proposed amendment CA -18 helps solve that problem. As someone who has been involved in land conservation for some time, I can tell you that stewardship can mean much more than picking up trash and removing invasives. At its best, stewardship means involving the community and caring for the land in a virtuous cycle that brings children outdoors, gives satisfying work to young adults, and which gives older people a chance to exercise and... excuse me, and share their experience. Stewardship can mean education, rehabilitation, and joy that really changes communities for the better. Some examples of creative stewardship I have been involved in including... include permaculture demonstration gardens, student's adopting trails, and organizing themselves to maintain them, outdoor classrooms, young people reintegrating from jail into society by working on restorative justice projects on preserves, nature walks to identify and learn about native plants and wildlife, and farm days where the public can come and harvest food from protected land. To have this level of community involvement, you have to have paid staff. Even on its most basic level, all volunteer stewardship of protected lands isn't appropriate because it is simply insufficient for the amount of work that needs to be done over long periods of time. Let alone the work that can be done if the land is to be honored as we hope it will be. And it isn't fair to the land itself. We can't afford to allow degradation of protected land and reliance on strictly volunteer work increases the risk of land not being cared for properly. We need to be realistic and the proposed change to CA -18 is a flexible answer. And just quickly, on CA -27, I oppose the change in the language and agree with the Trust for Public Land's letter which you have received. The language seems to require conservation easements and we certainly don't want to do that. We want to have flexibility in whether the County acquires fee or easement rights. It seems that the proposed amendment is unnecessary. Thank you. CHR. ADAMS: Thank you very much. Ms. Ward if you could come to the table. We will go to Kona. I am sorry, I don't have the names of the testifiers. Who is first? If you would please provide your name, the agenda item, and as I have mentioned before, three minutes for one agenda item, and a maximum of five for more than one. Thank you. TONI WITHINGTON: Proposal No. CA -18 in support and CA -27 in opposition. MS. WITHINGTON: Good Morning Commissioners. My name is Toni Withington. I am representing Kohala Lihikai and I am speaking in support of CA -18 and I am speaking in opposition to CA -27. Kohala Lihikai is a 501(c) (3) non-profit that was formed, the Board of Directors of Kohala Lihikai are Page 6 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 representatives of all the six community groups in North Kohala that are working on coastal preservation, on coastal purchasing, coastal prioritization, and stewardship. The reason we formed a separate 501(c) (3) is to perform the stewardship role. So that is why I would like to speak today to the Maintenance Fund and the changes that are being proposed. I mean everybody I think agrees that the move from Parks and Rec (Recreation) to Finance Department is a good one. No question. No question about that. Then the question comes up on the amendment CA -18 about the compensation for people for doing the work. Okay, Kohala Lihikai currently is... has agreements to steward four pieces of government owned open space land. Two of those open space lands are partially funded by the maintenance... the County's Maintenance Fund. One of them is partially funded by the Legacy Land Conservation Program and one of them is under agreement with the Department of Transportation Airports Division. So we have four projects going now. We would like to have... add one more to open space purchase in North Kohala in the next year. This involves a lot of volunteer work. It involves a lot of administrative work getting volunteers out into... onto the land and doing the work that... that we are supposed to be doing. What kind of work are we doing? Kohala Lihikai is involved in soil erosion control. It is involved in native plant restoration, wildlife... wild fire mitigation, and the supporting of the efforts of historic preservation plans that are in place. So we have a wide variety of things that we are doing and we have a number of projects for each of these agreements that we have. It is hard to find volunteers without passion and the passion always comes from the people who are setting up the programs and doing it and that tends to be the people on our Board of Directors. They are the ones who know the land, who are on the land, and are doing it. The Maintenance Fund, the way it is written, does not allow us to give them any salary or compensation for the work that they do and I don't think this is right because it makes it difficult for us to keep people on the Board when they are doing all of this work. They say "well I can just quit the Board and then you can hire me back." And that is just not a good way to do business. I think the way that the Maintenance Fund should be set up is that it makes it right for the people who are doing the work to get compensated for what they are doing. Most of what they are doing is handling a lot of volunteers and that is hard work. I know. I do it too. The other item I would like to talk to is CA -27 and I don't need to say much about it. I don't think it is necessary. The staff, the way it is written, it is perfectly alright to be purchased in fee or by an easement, and I think that this amendment takes away the flexibility of the staff and the people who are working for the purchase to have the flexibility they need. So thank you again for all the work that you are doing. You are our heroes. Thank you. CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. Next testifier from Kona. Page 7 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 SUSAN DURSIN: Proposal No. CA -18 in support, Proposal No. CA -27 in opposition and Proposal Nos. CA -20 and CA -28, commenting. MS. DURSIN: Yes, my name is Susan Dursin and I am testifying for myself today in favor of CA -18. Opposed to CA -27, and then I have just a few comments on CA -20 and CA -28. On 18 I just want to add my voice to excellent testimony that has been given from people who actually are volunteers and who have worked to coordinate the volunteer effort. We can see that Commissioner Rice's wording that would go into Section H6 of CA -18 is really good. It shows that the allocation of these funds will be prepared for by the business plan and overseen. We certainly hope a staff person in the Department of Finance and so in any case, do support the amendment in CA -18. As for CA -27, once again that testimony seems to be very clear and we just don't want that wording if it were included to result in unintended consequences. As far as CA -18 which has to do with the flow chart and the way that the Charter review is set up, the timing of it, it seems to me that if... you know... I know that Chair Adams particularly would want to align this part of the Charter with the HRS (Hawai`i Revised Statutes) Chapter 50, but I wonder whether some of this really needs to be done in order to go parallel to the HRS. If you move the beginning stages of the Charter review from July to January of the year preceding the election, I am wondering whether it... that is going to give adequate time. I mean on the face of it, it would look like it, but elections you know, seem to... everything has to be in place far before the actual date of the election, and one point of this is that I wonder whether 30 days which seems to be what is allocated for the Council review of the amendments, the proposed amendments, whether that is actually long enough after all they only meet every other week, they have... they, in the case of having many amendments which seems to happen now, whether they would have time to adequately review those proposals and to come back with possible alternatives. And that is another important step which needs to be protected. My other concern is whether it would allow enough time at the end for groups that want to do voter education and it actually... I know it says 45 days the wording would go out to be posted online and in publications, but 45 days is not very long. Not for people to start to educate the public. So in any case, I wish you would look at that. And my final comment on CA -18 which really isn't the heart of this proposal but it does have to do with the Commission and the appointment of it, I wish earlier I had been cognizant of the fact of how this body is set up and I would far prefer to see it appointed by people, well, to include people who are recommended by Council members and that there would be one Commission member from each Council District. You know, I don't know at this time whether it is too late to Page 8 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 really look at that seriously but that is my feeling. In any case once again thank you for all of your time and all your work. It is not easy. CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. Is there... are there any other testifiers in Kona? MS. FORD: Yes Sir, there is. CHR. ADAMS: Ms. Ford are you the only other testifier? MS. FORD: Yes Sir. CHR. ADAMS: Alright. Please go ahead Ms. Ford. BRENDA FORD: Proposal No. CA -18 and CA -31 in support, Comm. No. 46 and Proposal No. CA -27 in opposition. MS. FORD: Thank you. My name is Brenda Ford and I am one of the co-authors of the PONC and the Maintenance Fund associated with it. I would like to testify on Communication No. 46, the calling of the special election for the Charter Commission. I oppose this on the basis that it is a waste of County funds. You have to do a special election. It could be done by mail in ballots but there is still a lot of money wasted because those could still be sent out during a general election. Rather than spend a couple of hundred thousand dollars doing a special election, I would suggest that you use that money to put in an explanation of pro and con explanation of each Charter amendment for the public when they get their package mailed to them during the general election or they can pick it up from an office or they can get it online. Two hundred thousand would be more than enough. If you guys want to write the pros and the cons that is fine. If you don't have anybody that wants to write the pro or the con, those of us in the public would be glad to pick up the slack. So the things that we support, we would rather write the pro statement rather than have somebody who is potentially opposed to it write something strange. So I would urge you not to waste that money but use it for a pro/con explanation to go as an insert into the ballots. On CA -18, I support this. I am saddened to see that somehow it has gone back to the original. We need to help these stewardship groups as much as we possibly can. It is one of the things that we have learned over the years and I support it and I hope you can change it back to the way we had it originally that we can pay them. Our purpose is to make the PONC stronger and our stewardship grow stronger and incent them to go out and take care of our land. The County cannot and will not do it and it was never intended to do it. On CA -27, regarding the forcing us to use easements. It is unnecessary. We can use the easements now. We have always been able to use easements. You are making a ballot longer than necessary at additional cost. Wasted time for everybody. So I support 18, I oppose 27, I support CA -31. CA -31 allows Page 9 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 Council members to nominate people. The Council members know more about the people in their district than any Mayor or any staff person, or any other district. And I suggest that the minimum number would be two, but certainly not more than that. You start having difficulties finding people and then you have seats that are vacant. We have vacancies all over this County and I gotta tell you a story about my husband. Brilliant man, certified purchasing manager applied for a position on one of the Commissions, and was told by the current Mayor that he hadn't lived on the island long enough to know what was going on. Not everybody has to be born and raised here to know what is going on. And this happened years ago but we need qualified people not just people the Mayors want, who will do their bidding. So please let Communication 31 go through as it is written by Ms. Hecht, thank you Debbie, and that is the end of my testimony. Thank you. CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. Moving back into Hilo, we will go with Ms. Hecht. DEBBIE HECHT: Proposal No. CA -18 and CA -31 in support, Comm. No. 46 and Proposal No. CA -27 in opposition. MS. HECHT: Good Morning Commissioners, my name is Debbie Hecht speaking on Communication 46 on the special election, CA -18, on restoring the ability to pay workers in the non-profit stewardship group for PONC, CA -27 on the use of conservation easements, and CA -31 on Boards and Commissions. You should have a paper that I left at your desks that is a handout of the language that we have been working on for CA -18. On Communication 46 regarding the special election, for only the Charter Commission amendments, I see no reason to spend $445,000 for mail in ballots or $774,000 for a regular election. There is nothing so pressing that needs to be changed before November 3, 2020. That will be a Presidential election. There should be a good turnout, so we can really see what the people of Hawai`i want in terms of changing the Charter. I believe that we would... it would be better to have more time to fully educate people as to the pros and cons of this issue. The League of Women Voters provides that service for you know, at their expense and needs time to do the pros and cons research. We keep hearing the County is so strapped for money. Why spend this money for an unnecessary election? Please vote no. At first reading and right on this handout it is the red part, at first reading you returned the Maintenance Fund to what now exists in the Charter. I think this might have been because you were concerned that Board members would be paid to serve on the Board and that is not the case at all. I gave you a handout, this handout and we have compromised language to the current language in red. What we added was that unless they are paid for specific duties that are approved as part of their business plan, and that was to six. So no officer, Board member, employee of the 501(c)(3) non-profit or the organization that operates under the Page 10 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 umbrella shall receive a salary or payment for labor or receive any reimbursement for the stewardship work on the project, and then we added "unless they are paid for specific duties that are approved as part of their business plan." So that is all that we are asking for. Remember, the business plan goes to the Department of Finance and PONC as it is now written in CA -18. So we learn from feedback from the non -profits who applied for grant funding, is that the volunteer workforce is inconsistent. Every 2% Land Fund property needs help from people who are committed to care for the land. Volunteers are very important and the core of every program but they burn out and leave because of responsibilities to work or family. All of the stewardship groups requested that they be able to pay people to work on the land. As programs grow, volunteer coordinators could be paid to maximize the land, stewardship groups, create school education programs... the ability to pay dedicated workers would help create jobs in rural economically depressed areas of the island and minimize volunteer burnout. Please remember that only nine percent of all the monies deposited in the Maintenance Fund since 2013 has been granted to the stewardship non -profits. That was not our intent when Brenda Ford and I wrote that. On CA -27, conservation easements, please vote no. The Trust for Public Land wrote you a great letter. Lea Hong who is the attorney and the TPL's Executive Director, she said the words "practicable" and "shall" may make the preference for conservation easements mandatory and may conflict with community or County needs to acquire land in fee simple. I think she is right. This could limit the negotiating powers of the person hired to work only on the 2% Land Fund Program. Please vote no. So on Boards and Commissions, CA -31, I sent you an email yesterday on the Boards and Commissions and I did a little bit of research. Do you know that there are 37 active Boards and Commissions on our island right now? So let's say there are two vacancies each year, that means the Mayor has to find 74 people every year. I mean is that the best use of the Mayor's time? I think that it would be best to have... to flip it so that the Council members nominate people from their districts. They know their districts better than the Mayor can and then it could be... they could be vetted and approved or disapproved by the Mayor. I think that would serve the people of the island better and then you also heard, I was reading your minutes... Rene' Siracusa from Puna said that a lot of times with the vacancies on the Boards, that they don't have quorum in order to get business done. So I think the Council members should nominate and the Mayor should approve. And I think that that will help to represent the people of the island better. Mahalo for all of your hard work and diligence. Thank you. CHR. ADAMS: Thank you very much. If I could ask Koohan Paik-Mander please to come to the table. Thank you. Ms. Ward. Page 11 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 DEBORAH WARD: Proposal No. CA -18 in support and Proposal No. CA -27 in opposition. MS. WARD: Aloha and good morning. I am Debbie Ward. Today I am representing Sierra Club for the Hawai`i Island group and the members of Sierra Club have special interest in the longevity and improvement of the PONC 2% Land Fund and the maintenance of the lands that we purchase on behalf of the citizens of the County. In addition to offering hikes and service projects to assist in the awareness and the enjoyment of these special places, we help to identify issues and potential solutions to things such as impacts of climate change, shoreline retreat, cultural practice, access makai and mauka without gates and barriers, and many other things. For example the dairy has recently gated the Humu'ula Access Trail and one of our citizens pointed it out to Na Ala Hele Trail System and that is being resolved. But you know if nobody's got their eyes open to things like this, we lose access to the important places that we have got protected for many reasons. We support local communities and the maintenance of acquired lands and we are aware of the difficulties that the non -profits are facing as they try to navigate the PONC Maintenance Fund process. Sometimes their allocation comes 11 months late and they have got a month to do the work that they you know applied to do a year and a half earlier. We want to make the fund usable and more efficient and available in a timely manner with the support and not the impedance of the County and we think that CA -18 amendments would help with this. The original intent of the legislation written by Brenda Ford and Debbie Hecht supported by Sierra Club, was to assist the stewardship of the non -profits to care for the land and we feel that the points made by Doug Sensenig and by Debbie Hecht and by Brenda, all point out why we should be strengthening the CA -18 to include paid labor for... in specific duties that are written into the business plan. There will be oversight. This is not going to be a slush fund for the members of non -profits. I wanted to speak briefly on... oh, I wanted to oppose 27 as well, CA -27 for the reasons stated by others. And I wanted to save the time to talk a little bit about CA -31 even though it wasn't in my Sierra Club testimony because now I am speaking on behalf of myself. In our district we have a termed out member on the PONC Commission and two months ago I applied to be on that Commission. And I believe that I am fully qualified. I spent 25 years in natural resource management at the University on the faculty. I have been hiking on this island for nearly 50 years and have lived in the islands for more than 50 years. I do know the land. I have done a lot of service projects, I have served on five Mayor's Commissions and I show up and I do the work. It is not that there is anything not qualified, so the fact that the Mayor has decided that he prefers to have more applicants is completely understandable. I respect the discretion of the Mayor, but when you have got a vacant Board position that requires that it be filled in order to meet quorum and you have got at least two applicants if not more who have applied and those applicants are qualified, it begs the question why does the Page 12 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 Mayor have sole discretion in selecting these people and so I strongly support the idea that the County Council would be able to appoint or at least nominate positions that would then be approved by the Mayor. I agree that there is a lot of Board positions to fill and the Mayor has many other duties besides vetting those positions. But when you have got people that are qualified and are not selected and you are told by the Mayor's assistant that there need to be far more applicants so the Mayor has more to choose from, you have to ask what the benefit of that discretion is and for that reason, I support CA -31. And with that, I thank you very much for your time. Mahalo. CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. If I could ask Mr. Warshauer to please come to the table. Ms. Paik-Mander. KOOHAN PAIK-MANDER: Proposal No. CA -18 and CA -46 in support. MS. PAIK-MANDER: Hi, is this on or do I need to... it's on, yeah, okay. Hi my name is Koohan Paik-Mander and it is great to see all of you here. Thank you for all of your hard work. I am, I do serve on the PONC Commission but I am here speaking for myself and I do have an anecdote to share, but first I would like to say what I do professionally. I am a development director. That means I am a professional grant writer and I write grants to large foundations for the non-profit that I work for. It is flabbergasting to me... so I am speaking on first CA -18 and then CA -46. I am appalled... it is really confusing that we would not want to pay staff working on the non -profits from my perspective because when I apply for grants, if we don't' have salaries set out for each of the people at our non-profit, we are not even... we are just going to be thrown away as a grant application because these foundations and I am talking about Ford Foundation, Bill Gates, I mean they know that you need to support a project if you want to see it succeed and if you don't have that support you end up spending more money. I'll give you an example. I wanted to cut corners putting up a staircase in my home, so I didn't want to hire a contractor that would have been three times the amount of a guy that said "don't worry, I can do it for you." He couldn't get the angle straight, totally messed it up, had to fire him right, and then I still wasn't convinced. I still wanted to save money cause I would still save money if I hired this other guy, so I did. I am cutting corner, you know, I don't really have the support, I am not giving him... just not qualified basically, I didn't want to spend the money, okay, to make a long story short, it took me three non-qualified people saying they could do the job before I finally hunkered down, bought a licensed contractor, did the job right, and it ended up costing me so much more money. Okay, I see the same thing happen on PONC. I have only been there for a year, but what is happening is you know, coming from a non-profit background to see Page 13 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 no support from the County to supporting this program, when my first few meetings expressed itself this way, some... a non-profit came in and they needed to get funding for the next year. They hadn't gotten funding for the prior year, but they still needed to apply for the following year, and I needed, coming from my perspective, I am very strict oversight and if I don't see a final report from the preceding year, I am not going to okay funding. But I was urged by the attorney and Corporation Counsel and many people, like everyone else there, "well no because everything is backed up and they still need to get their funding, so we are just going to, you know, look at their proposal for the next year." And that really rubbed me the wrong way. So what is ending up happening is like the staircase fiasco, we are like committing all this money but we are not able to see the performance because number one, there is no staff. The people...okay, well this actually relates to staffing processing which is why it is super important to get Finance Committee to be doing administration. Because what was happening was when it was under Parks and Rec is that they were so backed up with so many... they are the hugest department... it was too much for them. So it would be wonderful to get Finance, and we actually had a little hui about it, like what are we going to do about this and the gentleman to my left who so wisely suggested "let's get it under Finance and we will go directly to the source." And we said "yeah, let's suggest this to you folks," and that is how that got to be a suggested amendment, a proposed amendment, but getting back to CA -18, you know, in 1994, the plantations were going out of business and Inouye, Senator Inouye was lobbied by Monsanto and the GMO (Genetically Modified Organism) companies that we've got the solution to agriculture in Hawai`i and that's this new thing called genetic modifications. So they created an office called the Agro Business Development Corporation. That office was basically what we are asking for for support for our program. So they have this staff and it has been going on since 94, to help accommodate agro business and Monsanto and the GMOs. We need to keep our money like staff salaries or the non -profits that would get jobs, why not support open lands as we have supported GMOs and Monsanto by offering these paid positions for you know, I am really strict with oversight for specific tasks that were done to support open land so that we can function smoothly and not spend all of this money on four staircases and not really get anything done. Thank you. CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. If I could ask, I am sorry. Okay. I would like to ask Jesse Keone Potter please to come to the table. Mr. Warshauer. RICK WARSHAUER: Proposal No. CA -18, commenting. MR. WARSHAUER: My name is Rick Warshauer. I have been here a few times before. I am glad to see you are still working on it. Mahalo for your service. I see there are new additions all the time so you are busy at it. And I wanted to Page 14 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 comment on some old and new briefly. I serve on PONC, but I am speaking as an individual and my experiences on PONC help formulate my opinions on CA -18 which I strongly support. And the elements to allow toilets, trails, and pay for staff person are all essential if you want management of land to be done in an efficient manner and have it really be a service to the public, and since it is coming from the PONC fund and not additional funds from the County, I think it is most appropriate that it be done that way. But one of the most important parts of this for me, is to see the Administration of the fund be transferred from Parks and Recreation to Finance and our experience as a PONC Commission member and other members as you've heard, in reviewing these maintenance proposals, has been that we don't know their past record. There is no record of it, there is nobody from P&R (Parks and Recreation) to show up to ask, the P&R and Finance don't appear to be in direct communication, or at least not that we can see, nothing that is forwarded to us, so that leaves us partially in the blind in evaluating these things. It is really a bad situation. So for me this is one of the most important changes that CA -18 provides. CA -27, I urge you not to continue with that one. The current operations to the PONC process already includes the use of conservation easements as an option. Each PONC funded acquisition has its own characteristics and the use of conservation easement rather than fee acquisition should be determined by the situation, not by Charter preference or mandate. I note that the use of conservation easements can better use PONC funds in these situations and can foster partnering with other funding sources, another important aspect. But these aspects already are currently allowed, so the CA -27 is not needed. And I support CA -18, ah.. 31, as you heard on a previous testimony, we could use some changes and some acceleration of getting people on to Commissions and we face the problem of not having quorum when we have a meeting because we have vacancies that have been there for a long time. Or a short time, either way. Sometimes people can't make it for protracted periods and that in addition to vacancies, makes it really difficult to meet quorum. And again, thank you for your service and I appreciate the changes that you are making. I think we will all be better for them as they come to the ballot. CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. After Mr. Potter's testimony, we will be taking a short break and then we will continue with statements from the testimony. Mr. Potter. JESSE KEONE POTTER: Proposal No. CA -18 Draft 2 in support. MR. POTTER: Aloha mai Kakou, my name is Jesse Keone Potter. I am with Pohaha I Ka Lani, one of the PONC stewardship organizations. The PONC parcel that we steward is the Waipi`o Valley Lookout and so, I am here to testify on CA -18, Draft 2, in support of it. As many of the other speakers have said, I Page 15 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 would agree with almost everything everybody has said so far regarding CA -18 and movement to the Department of Finance, we support that because of the delays in funding as the last two PONC Commissioner individuals have mentioned, the delays have been so significant that we were required to submit applications for the following year when we didn't receive the previous year's funding yet, so we were kind of submitting in the blind, which gives the perception and difficulty that PONC Commissioners mentioned and planning wise it is hard to kind of like plan when you are required to submit without having started the previous year. So the delays have been anywhere from a year and a half to the first application... to nine to ten months for the second application delay and to this one, so the 2018 PONC stewardship started in October 1st of 2018, so nearly when the year is over, so the delays are significant. And so, moving to the Department of Finance would be a lot probably better because their staff would be more committed to this and that is why we also support CA -9, which is the other Charter amendment to add that staff person, that PONC staff person to help streamline all of this, have more of a one-on-one person to interact with because even just getting a site visit from Parks and Rec has been difficult. Even just getting a response on situations have been difficult so as a significant example you know, matching funding is hard when you have delays in awards, you know, you can't plan to get matching funding for the staff person or anything else needed to support the program because the delays are significant. And that PONC staff person under the Department of Finance would help with that. Another big issue is that these are public access parcels but there are no rules and guidelines on how the public can utilize them. So like, like the Waipi`o Lookout parcel is different because it is a community space, people want to use it for gatherings, picnics, maybe like family... you know like you know, reunions and those kinds of things, but there are no rules and guidelines so Parks and Rec basically said nobody can use it until had rules and guidelines. Rules and guidelines haven't been implemented and I asked for that process to start in November of 2017 and nothing has started so far. So to this day, the community has no means to interact with the parcel except through the stewardship organizations like us, but we don't want to be the gate keepers because as mentioned and I am going to get to, is that we are volunteers, we can't always be there and we don't want to be that person. We always tell them to go to Parks and Rec but Parks and Rec has no process. So Parks and Rec basically says no in a general sense. So that brings me to my next point about the permissible uses of funding. We have started to do the stewardship in 2016 as required by the Charter has been all volunteer on our organizations part. Countless hours, I have done everything from cutting trees to grass maintenance, to coordination of groups, hosting of educational groups, preparation and breakdown, set up, all those different things. So, as everybody has mentioned you know, it has been burnt out. This is our third year and so we are kind of like pulling back, scaling back, and what we do individually as an organization and just doing the minimum because it is kind of Page 16 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 RECESS: RECONVENE: burnt out after three years now on the project. Maintenance, education, preparation, coordination, are the three main things, or four main things that are required. In 2019 in this year alone since January 1st we have hosted approximately 120 individuals on the site from University, from Wisconsin, to Carrol University, to the office of Hawaiian Education Summit which had 54 people, Laupahoehoe Public Charter School seniors and kindergarteners, Hawai`i Community College Biology 156 course, (inaudible) Teacher Education Program, Big Island Invasive Species Council volunteers... so we have host very smart people, but that hosting is one is one day we are there plus the setup and loading of stuff on the day prior, or the breakdown on the day after and that is not required. That is not even part of maintenance of cutting grass, of weeding the garden beds and trying to keep up with everything else. That is just the hosting on the site. So things are in our 2019 application which may start in or I don't know when... in 2000, maybe in Summer of 2019... we have scaled it back to kind of contract out most things because we can't continue to do this as volunteers. And I think the potential the programs reduce when everything is either required to be contracted out and there is no... as others mentioned, volunteer coordination is allowed by organization staff unless it is us volunteering our time, and so everything the people said before that things need to be you know, more collaborative with the County in terms of Department of Finance would be a better partner with that and also more support for organizations to be able to take the program to the next level with personnel funding. I would ask if not, part-time, almost near full-time for some depending on some parcels and stuff like that. And as everybody kind of.... As Koohan mentioned, volunteers are untrained. They can do specific tasks but very like limited tasks and you know, trained staff is needed to have the perpetuity and sustainability of the program, so thank you. CHR. ADAMS: Thank you very much. At this point without objection we will take a ten minute recess. At 10:32 a.m., the Chair called for a recess. The meeting reconvened at 10:42 a.m. CHR. ADAMS: I understand that we have a testifier in Kona. If I could ask Ms. Wille and Sammie Stanbro please to come to the table here in Hilo. Do we have a testifier here in Kona? MS. BAEZ: Chair, Scott Sussman is here. CHR. ADAMS: I didn't catch that. Page 17 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MS. MAGNUSON: Scott Sussman is here. CHR. ADAMS: Oh there we are, okay great. If I could ask you to provide your name, any organization if any that you are representing, the agenda items that you are speaking to, you have three minutes for one agenda item. Anything more than that, a maximum of five minutes on your testimony. Thank you. Go ahead. SCOTT SUSSMAN: Proposal No. CA -24, commenting. MR. SUSSMAN: Hi, my name is Scott Sussman. I am a Fire Commissioner but I am going to... I am here on my own behalf. I was kind of called out of my home site this morning. It was a surprise to me. I understand that there is a Charter amendment proposed to change the qualifications for the Fire Chief. Is that CA - 24? CHR. ADAMS: Yes. MR. SUSSMAN: Does Commissioner Todd have any comment for me that would help bring me up to speed on that? CHR. ADAMS: I am sorry Mr. Sussman, this is the opportunity for you as a member of the public to speak to us. MR. SUSSMAN: Okay. The Fire Commission submitted a formal document from the whole Commission recommending Charter amendments. The original requirement for the Fire Chief were unchanged. Now I understand or I don't see it anywhere in writing or on your agenda but the length of time as a Fire Captain or whatever has been changed or as submitted as a proposed change for the Charter and my testimony would be please don't limit the field for the requirements for Fire Chief. We need as many applicants as we can. We have an internal document that provides more or less that a... what we can expect from a Fire Chief, the talents and skills that are needed. You don't want to limit the field. If ... this idea that more time in office as a Captain or whatever doesn't in any way improve the potential to get a good Chief, so that is what I have to say. CHR. ADAMS: Okay. MR. SUSSMAN: Please don't change the requirement for the Fire Chief beyond what was already in the document that came from the Charter... the Fire Commission already. Thank you and forgive my confusion because this... this thing kind of came from left field for me this morning. Forgive me. CHR. ADAMS: Thank you very much. MR. SUSSMAN: Any questions? Page 18 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 CHR. ADAMS: We appreciate your testimony. Thank you. MR. SUSSMAN: Thanks. CHR. ADAMS: Is Sammie Stanbro in the audience? Ms. Wille. MARGARET WILLE: Proposal Nos. CA -3, CA -18 Draft 2, CA -22, CA -26 Draft 2, CA -28, CA -29, CA -30 in support, Proposal No. CA -27 Draft 2 and Comm. No. 46 in opposition, and Proposal No. CA -31 commenting. MS. WILLE: Aloha. Margaret Wille testifying on behalf of myself. I want to start with CA -27. I oppose. That is the one on emphasizing use of easements and whereas I conceptually think it is a great idea and we all like partnerships, and we all like trying to cut costs, based on my experience on a number of easements, it is an implementation ... a really bad idea and I will give you one example and that was the Waimea trail system a section of it worked out with an easement with Parker Ranch instead of doing it as in fee. Based on that we lost opportunity for a great deal of federal funds. The, and this is there are a number of different federal funds whether it was through D.O... Department of Transportation.... Department of Interior, whatever... anyway, we could not get it because they said they would only give matching funds if it was in fee. And as well, in negotiating the easements, you know it is back and forth. You are trying to accommodate. Yeah hey you are supposed to be doing an emphasis on an easement and we ended up, if you have any questions on this, get ahold of the easement agreement with Parker Ranch. Basically we paid as if it was a fee. It is a non-exclusive easement allowing all kind s of things to go on. So I am just saying great idea. Doesn't work. The only other one I oppose is CA -46, I don't... I think that that is very bad. I agree with CA -18. I would prefer to have the amendment to allow for some payment and one might compromise and say that it is at minimum wage so you don't get into people negotiating salaries and different things like that. I agree with CA -26, Draft 2 in terms of the requirement for Public Works. I very strongly encourage CA -28 that has to do with removing the language for the majority on the different political parties. There is enough problems trying to sort out, you know, we want boys and girls, and all of this, and our State tends to be... we have a Democratic party with a Republican wing... it just at least here you can allow for more people to be on it. What is happening right now is people are told to put down Independent even if they are a Democrat. It just shouldn't be what party you are in. It should be how you qualify for that Board. And I agree with CA -29. It really is... it has to do with looking at capital programs and looking at it and paying attention to the General Plan and the Community Development Plans which would correspond to our, what our Page 19 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 General Plan says and what our... all of our Ordinances having to do with the Community Plan, and that is really the one area that the Community Development Plan Boards are supposed to have some power to look at what do you recommend and not have... now, that's great, the current Administration I think is doing more of that but I can tell you the past Administration did not and the previous Administration did not, and it should be memorialized and then CA -30 this has to do with the Ethics Board and really giving them a little power to instead of just coming out with what their advice is and the system isn't working the way it is right now and that would help to make it work better. CA -22, I agree with. Communication 3 on Ad Hocs of course, I mean that is just a working one, but I really encourage that. I know a number of the things that I submitted and came and testified were never really looked at and I know you have a really big plate, but I think that would enable for more deliberation to take place and for you all to hear more of what we have to say. Thank you very much. CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. Ms. Begier if you could please come to the table. Ms. Stanbro. SAMMI I- STANBRO: Proposal No. CA -18 in support and Proposal Nos. CA -27 and CA -44 in opposition. MS. STANBRO: Sammie Stanbro from Hilo and Kona. I am just speaking to the major, the four major ones that are in front of us. I definitely think that we do not need a special election. We are already pinching our pennies as it is and my tax dollar does not need to go and pay for a special election that can be done when the other elections are... I always think it is really ridiculous. I think you guys have done a lot of hard work, but I don't think we have to have a special election on just for what you have been working on. I also, I am totally in favor of 18. I think we need to change that a little bit. You have heard about that a lot, so I am not going to repeat myself. On CA -31 I have been on Commissions. I have watched you know, the people who have been... usually I have gone back and forth this island to be on the Commission. I really didn't need to do that. There are a lot of people that the Council person could have tapped into but because the Mayor was the one making the decision, a lot of good people get overlooked and I think it is really good to have the Councils involved in picking out people for that. On the CA -27, I really want you to refer to Trust for Public Land, Lea Hong, the letter she wrote. All the people that work in Trust for Public Land are lawyers. They work on the land but they are really good lawyers and what she points out in the letter is really good because we... I am on that Board and that is all we look at is law and land, and law and land, over and over and they have acquired some pretty amazing pieces of property and that is all they deal with, is the law. So please refer to her comments on 27. Page 20 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 In general I really want to thank you all for the work that you do. I mean it is tireless. You have been dealing with all of these issues. I am kind of a one issue person here obviously. I want strength for PONC, we voted over and over and I will talk to young people all over this island that are unbelieving that we were... that we are actually doing this for their future and, but at the same time I know how much work you guys do on all these other subjects so I just want to thank you very much for your time. Thank you. CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. Ms. Begier. MARY BEGIER: Proposal No. CA -18 opposition. MS. BEGIIHR: Good morning. Thank you all for being here and all that you do. I am not going to win a popularity contest here but I think that I am speaking for a number of people on this island. Particularly business people. It is ten thirty, eleven o'clock on a Thursday morning. Most people have to be at work for their jobs. They don't have the flexibility that I happen to have. I am specifically speaking on the PONC subject and so, that is like 18, 27, I am sorry I am not really good at figuring out all of the numbers here. The... when PONC was first proposed it came from many groups of people saying "Gosh, we are seeing areas of our island being developed." Particularly post sugar. There were things happening prior to sugar but we didn't have as people, we didn't really have as much to say about it. Post sugar we had a little more to say about it. And so there were people that were wanting to develop certain tracts of land and many people came out and said "but that is where we have surfed" or "that's where we have hiked", or "that's where we always had our kid's fishing expeditions." And the private landowner said "okay, I don't have to build this here. I don't have to develop this here, but I do have private property rights, so I should be compensated." And that was really the grassroots beginning of what we now call PONC. I am not saying that what PONC does isn't good. Gosh you know if it was up to me and I wish I was independently wealthy so I didn't have to think about the job I am being flexible from, so I could have a checkbook to write for all of these fabulous causes and we could make a park out of all of this great land. We could have restrooms, we could have paid staff on site at these properties, but we can't. That is not who Hawai`i Island is and when we make decisions about what we want Hawai`i Island to be, it not only includes preserving our land and conserving certain areas, but it is at what cost. We are struggling to have enough property taxes to... that's the only revenue source the County has. The rest of it is begging at the State Legislature and any Council person can tell you how much fun that is. So I won't go down that road. Getting back to what I am talking about, is we went... we have got a whole two percent of our gross collections of property taxes going in to this fund. I think we need to slow down. We need to take a step back and look at when we are talking about conserving certain lands, is that conservation really necessary right now. Maybe it is. Maybe some invasive species is going to take over if we don't do something, but possibly, Mother Page 21 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 Nature could just do what Mother Nature does and we can leave it be for a little while and focus those funds somewhere else. I think the idea of moving it from Parks and Recs to Finance is a great idea. And I am sure that my friends in Finance are going to love this next statement. I think that moving it to Finance gives you the qualified staff to make some of these decisions. To help coordinate some of these volunteer situations, to take some of that work off of the back of pure volunteers. I am a volunteer. I volunteer for lots of things and I know how much work it is to coordinate a fun run, to have a water station, to have first aid, to get the right skill of people there to know... you don't want to just go in and pull weeds. You might be pulling you know, an indigenous plant. So it does take skill. I am not negating all of this wonderful work that is happening but I am asking can we really as this County of Hawai`i Island, priding ourselves on being the last of the real Hawai`i, do we want to spend all this money in that focus right now. And so, let's just slow down and take our time on that subject. I would also like to speak on, I should disclose that I do serve on the Real Property Tax Task Force, but I am speaking completely as an individual here today. On CA -19 to do away with the minimum tax. The minimum tax might seem arbitrary because it could be that you know, a hundred dollars on something that you might think is worth more than something else, but it is the simplest way to go about it. The... I am surprised that some of the people that work in our tax department stay working for County government. They are extremely skilled and they could make a whole lot more money working in private industry, but they have public service at heart. And so when they recommend to us an idea like this, I am going with it because we just need to stick with the minimum tax. We are also dabbling into personnel management that I think that, and we are doing this both in the volunteer arena by saying who should pick the people to serve on Boards and Commissions as well as in saying who... what the minimum requirements should be. I spoke to this when I testified the other night at the public hearing. I have served on many search committees and in private industry versus... I just heard the gong... as well as at the University, and the biggest difference between private industry and government is that in private industry if you see all your resumes and applications come in and you are... nobody has got the MQs (Minimum Qualifications), then you know you have got the wrong job description and you need to rethink things. Government doesn't have that flexibility. So I am suggesting that government needs that flexibility. Government needs to... this is the Mayor's Administration. I appreciate that the County Council has a role in all of this so maybe it is correct to have some blending of County Council suggesting participants, but it is the Mayor's Administration. It is, you know, and anyone who knows me knows that Mayor Kim and I will go back and forth on a lot of subjects and never agree. So I am not just saying this for Mayor Kim. I am just saying that you have got to have the buck stop some place and so that is where it is important when you are talking about that, that it be the Mayor's responsibility. Thank you for this opportunity. CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. Do we have any other speakers in Kona? Page 22 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MS. BAEZ: There are no other speakers. APPROVAL OF The Chair directed the Commission to proceed to the next order of business, MINUTES: Approval of Minutes. CHR. ADAMS: Thank you and I understand that we have no speakers here in Hilo. Alright. Let's move on then to approval of minutes. You'll note that we have seven sets of minutes. Our regular scheduled... our regular meeting minutes of March 8th, and then the public hearing minutes from the six public hearings that we held between March 25th and April 4th. Is there any objection to, from the Commission to handling the approval of these minutes as a single... I am sorry? MR. ROEHRIG: I said excuse me. CHR. ADAMS: Oh. MR. ROEHRIG: I burped. MS. RICE: That's going to be in the minutes. MR. HOPKINS: Let's make sure that's in the minutes. MR. ROEHRIG: You can take that out. CHR. ADAMS: Is there any objection to handling the approval of these minutes as a single motion? Alright. Are there any corrections to the minutes that we have before you? The only correction I have has to do with April 2nd, and it is on page 6, where the Chair notes that the next meeting will be April 23rd. I am pretty sure I said April 3rd, so that would be it. Without objection, and the minutes stand approved with that lone correction. I still need the motion. It has been moved by Commissioner Rice and seconded by Commissioner Hopkins. Any other discussion? All in favor of the motion please signify by saying "aye" (aye), any opposed? Motion passes unanimously with Commissioner Bergin excused. Thank you. Page 23 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 Vote on Motion Commissioner Rice moved to approve the minutes of March 8, 2019, To Approve Minutes: March 23,2019, March 29, 2019, April 1-4, 2019. Seconded by (Approved) Commissioner Hopkins and carried by the following voice vote: COMMUNI- CATIONS: Ayes: Commissioners Galimba, Hamano, Hopkins Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd, Zelko Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10 Noes: None. Absent: Commissioner Bergin - 1 Excused: None. The Chair directed the Commission to proceed to the next order of business, Communications. CHR. ADAMS: Moving in to Communications, we have our Communication 6.1 which has to do with proposed submission, and approval protocol, and timeline First Reading Report and Second and Final Reading. Is there any discussion on this? Okay, then I will start. The purpose of this particular communication is to talk briefly about the scheduling of the Commission's work in May and June essentially, so by our rules, there is a First Reading Report that is prepared by our Analyst prior to our meeting that would be considering those items that have made it through First Reading prior to our considering that for Second Reading. So you will notice that in this particular agenda we had no Second Reading items so even though we had had some things that had gone through First Reading. So the idea is that we will... we have some new proposals for Initial Approval and we have some items that made it through Initial Approval in our previous regular meeting that we will be considering for First Reading in our May Meeting, we will then consider the remainder of those things, those Initial Approvals that have made it through Initial Approval here for First Reading in the May meeting. We will then between that meeting date and our June, one of our June meetings, where we receive a First Reading Report and will report on all of the items that we have considered and have voted on twice and have approved through First Reading. And so that is what our rules call for. Given that, we have then looked at the timelines associated with the meetings. The idea being that May 17th which we had chatted about previously, would be an opportunity for us to have our next, or to have our May regular meeting and then we would have two meetings in June, when the purpose of that would be to have the First Reading Report between the May 17th meeting and the first June meeting which for the sake of argument we could say is Friday the 7th. We would then have the opportunity at that point to consider all of those items for Second Reading, Second and Final Reading. We then would take whatever has made it through that and develop the Final Report which we would then as a body approve, that would then go back to, which would then be Page 24 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 sent to the Council for their work. So the way this looks is, correct me if I am speaking out of turn here, but the way this looks is, May 17th would be our next meeting. That would three weeks from tomorrow, so it is a Friday. After that meeting, we would receive our First Reading Report from the staff. June 7th which would be three weeks from that date, would be the opportunity to consider all of the items for Second and Final Reading, and then June 21st would be two weeks later, and that would be an opportunity to then see the Final Report which would include our Activities, Findings, and Recommendations, as well as the Proposed Amendments that we have voted on through Second Reading on the June 7th meeting, we would then have that available for us to review and vote on at the June 21st meeting which would be two weeks from the previous meeting. That is the plan. Any questions? Please. You're confused because it is very confusing. So go ahead Commissioner Rice. MS. RICE: Okay, so excuse me if I didn't quite get this. CHR. ADAMS: That's okay. MS. RICE: Some of the things that are brand new today, let's assume for the sake of discussion that they are approved, correct? Then they go to the... all the way to the May 17th meeting for First Reading? CHR. ADAMS: Right. That would be... MS. RICE: For First Reading? CHR. ADAMS: Yes, that would be our next meeting, May 17th. MS. RICE: Okay, so then if they are approved, so then they get approved for First Reading let's say, then the next... then everything is approved then? Everything that is on our table is approved for First Reading? CHR. ADAMS: At the May 17th meeting, that would be the final time for anything that has been approved for First Reading, yes. MS. RICE: Okay, and then we would go in June to the first meeting for... with the First Reading Report for Second Reading? CHR. ADAMS: I thought you said you were confused. You are stating... MS. RICE: I just want to make sure. I've got it... straight CHR. ADAMS: You are stating it exactly. MS. RICE: Okay. And then at Second Reading, if everything passes, we go to the second meeting in June and do we do another vote? Page 25 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 CHR. ADAMS: So that vote would be... MS. RICE: That's the final vote? CHR. ADAMS: That vote would actually... well, that would be the Final Vote on the report that we are providing to the Council. MS. RICE: Okay. Now, my question is, so it goes to Council, Council can either accept what we send them or reject it. No, they can't reject it, they can send an alternative, okay... so they send an alternative, then what happens to the alternative? CHR. ADAMS: Depending on what this Commission does... if the Commission looks at the alternative that... and I am sure that I am actually going to get some qualifying statements here, but if the alternative that the Council sends back hypothetically is something that this Commission decides makes better sense then what we initially had, then the Commission has the ability to incorporate that alternative, that language into their proposal right? We would essentially change whatever the proposal was that the alternative speaks to. MS. RICE: So we can do that? CHR. ADAMS: We can do that. If we don't do that, then... and, the Council does not revoke its alternative, or recall it, doesn't recall its alternative which it can do, so that the alternative stays, then the alternative is sent forward along with our proposal to the Clerk when we send our final set of proposals. MS. RICE: What does the recall mean? I don't quite follow that. CHR. ADAMS: So the recall... in other words, the... according to HRS, the Council has the ability to recall its alternatives. Meaning it can send us an alternative but within a certain period of time it can say "actually we don't want to do that", so that it would then not be sent on to the Clerk. In other words it wouldn't be part of the ballot measure moving forward. MS. RICE: But if we have accepted that... CHR. ADAMS: If we accepted then that's fine. But they are... MS. RICE: Then that's the end of it? CHR. ADAMS: Then that's the end of that. MS. RICE: Okay. Can the Council send us anything new? No? Page 26 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MR. HENRICKS: No. MS. RICE: Okay. My one last question. Why did... we had it on the schedule to have our meeting on May 10th and I cannot recall why we changed it to May 17th. CHR. ADAMS: Having to do with the amount of time in between the meetings. The fact that we are meeting this late in April. We had talked about... MS. RICE: Oh, okay. More time? MR. HENRICKS: So, the date of the meeting hasn't officially been... CHR. ADAMS: That's correct. MR. HENRICKS: Changed yet, so as of now it would be the second Friday which is standard per our rules. MS. RICE: Right. MR. HENRICKS: But at the previous... the March 8th meeting, there was discussion about kind of setting up a schedule for the next two meetings which is why we are here today on the 25th as opposed to, because of the public hearings, and it was suggested at the time that the next meeting date to give time in between would be the 17th although if you so decide that the 10th is a good day then that is fine too. MS. RICE: Okay. MR. HENRICKS: But that discussion can be had probably at the end of this meeting assuming this meeting ends today. MS. RICE: To decide on the date? MR. HENRICKS: Correct. That's normally when the body... MS. RICE: Yeah, okay. MR. HENRICKS: Discusses... CHR. ADAMS: So we are having a conversation about the Communication within the confines of the Communication on the agenda... MS. RICE: So we don't discuss it now, got you. CHR. ADAMS: We had the ability to address the next meeting time... Page 27 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MS. RICE: At the end of the meeting? Okay. I am square. Thank you very much. CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Hopkins. MR. HOPKINS: Yes, based that the original schedule was listed as the 10th, I have a plane flight leaving on the 15th, so sorry about that. CHR. ADAMS: Okay. MR. HOPKINS: Thank you. CHR. ADAMS: Okay. MR. HENRICKS: We can do this... CHR. ADAMS: That part we can do later, right. MR. HENRICKS: Sure. Yeah. CHR. ADAMS: Any other... so that's the plan in terms of the variety of meetings, so plan on two meetings in June. We will identify those dates as well and so... but the idea is First Reading, only First Reading at the May meeting, First Reading Report following that, first June meeting will be considering Second Readings and then the final meeting in June will be to take all of that including the Final Report of Activities, Findings, and Recommendations, and our proposals that have passed Second Reading and vote on that to send to the Council. Okay. Thank you. Moving on to Communication No. 15, Articles I through XVI of the Hawai`i County Charter, any discussion? Communication No. 41.2, Informational Material Relating to CA -24 Submitted by Commissioner Todd. Commissioner Todd do you have... you have the floor. MR. HENRICKS: May I interject? I am sorry. You know normally we would list these Communications that you have submitted that are very pertinent to an existing proposal, alongside that, so if I may suggest that they are on the agenda. They don't necessarily need to be, but that allowed for public viewing that they are there, but perhaps we could hold off on discussion of these Communications until we have a motion on the floor for the relevant proposal... I think would be efficient unless there is... MS. TODD: I think it is more relevant to take it up in the context of CA -24, when it is on the floor. Page 28 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 CHR. ADAMS: Okay. MS. TODD: And then I can discuss the materials and why I sent them. CHR. ADAMS: Great. Thank you. Moving on to Communication No. 41.3, Position Description for Fire Captain. Without objection, we will consider that when we come to CA -24. And Communication No. 46 Calling a Special Election for Charter Commission Proposals. So you will note that I got a little wordy at the end of our last meeting when we were talking about the possibility of... to consider this, that was probably a little ahead of the game, but the idea of allowing the Commission to address the fact that we will have all things being equal, we will have proposals to the Clerk by the latest, by the beginning of September, which will then mean if we were following the schedule that we have had... that we have listed as a part of our calendar, would be about 14 months prior to the November 2020 election. And so, I just bring up the idea that having...holding a special election as opposed to having this as a part of the general election is an option. You have heard and seen a variety of comments. I have received a variety of comments as well. What I did appreciate is that our Elections Program Administrator did provide us a cost analysis as a part of the Communication. Does anyone have any discussion that they would like to make, or comments that they would like to make on this particular Communication? Commissioner Rice. MS. RICE: I can appreciate the... getting this on... under way, but I... listening to the public testimony on this, and from my own perspective, I think it would be better to consider it with the regular election from a financial point of view, I just don't see spending that kind of money for a special election and I do think that the public, there is quite a bit that we are going to throw at them in amendments and I think having that extra time until November of 2020 is better. We can do more education. The League of Women Voters can have the time to go through those and get material out to the general public. CHR. ADAMS: Okay, thank you. Commissioner Roehrig. MR. ROEHRIG: If there is a special election and these Charter amendments go before the public, what type of vote does it take to pass? A majority of the people that vote? Okay, then I have a comment. So potentially you are talking about one percent of the population making new law for this County, and I don't think one percent of the population should control what the law is. Looking at the public turnout just at the meeting... manini you know, you have three, four, five, people there, very little interest... I cannot see that people are going to take off from Page 29 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 work and are going to go out for a special election to vote. So you are talking about a fraction of a percent of the populace making law for this County and I think that's wrong. CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. MR. ROEHRIG: Besides that... CHR. ADAMS: I am sorry. Go ahead. MR. ROEHRIG: Don't want to hear anymore? CHR. ADAMS: Nope...I thought you were complete. My apologies. MR. ROEHRIG: To read everything too, maybe there has got to be a condensed version when there is a... all the proposed amendments, but you are talking right now if you are going to read the stuff that we have, you are probably talking a couple of hours of reading to go through everything. To fathom it and you know, and try understand. I got problems myself trying to understand so we are here all the time... Let's see, yeah, I think I said this, the turnout for voting in this County is really small. I think it is the smallest in the State, and I think the turnout generally in the State of Hawai`i is really low when compared to the entire United States and we talked about this I think from the very get go, but so... again, I am against having extremely small percent of the population determining what the law is to govern this County. Thank you. CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Todd. MS. TODD: Commissioner Roehrig brings up one of the issues that I have about how we approve Charter amendments, and to do it in a special election would make it even worse. If this waits until 2020, it is a Presidential election year, usually you get a decent turnout or a better turnout at that general election. There are a lot of people who never show up at special elections, they don't show up at the primaries, they only show up at the general, and sometimes they only show up you know, for one race. But you get a better percentage. The Charter amendments are further determined by a smaller group of people then just those who show up. It is those... a majority of those who vote on the matter. So if a whole bunch of people show up and they only vote for President, but they don't vote on the Charter amendments, they don't count as noes. They don't count as yeses. They just don't count. So it is only the people who vote. So, it is even a smaller percentage than those who turnout at the election who determine whether a Charter amendment is approved and I thought that they should change that to be more like the way you change the State Constitution. That it has to be a percentage, not of those who vote on the matter, but that... a percentage of the people who turn out to vote. So that it raises the bar a little bit before you make these kinds of amendments that change our taxes, that change our structure. Page 30 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 Because if you have a devoted group of people who have an e-mail and they can turnout people to vote on a particular issue, and other people don't even bother to look at it, so it bothers me. Thank you. UNFINISHED The Chair directed the Commission to proceed to the next order of BUSINESS: business, Unfinished Business. CHR. ADAMS: Any other comments? Okay. I believe that without voting, a consensus is appearing to come forward. Alright, let's move into Unfinished Business, Communication No. 3 is the Formation of Ad Hoc Committees. At this time we are not looking to do that. Moving on to Communication No. 36, Transmitting CA -19 for Initial Approval, Proposal to add a new section to Article X, Financial Procedures, to prohibit the County from applying a minimum real property tax rate and unless otherwise provided for by ordinance, require that real property taxes be levied based on the assessed value of the parcel and any improvements thereto; as submitted by Commissioner Hopkins. This was postponed at our last regularly scheduled meeting of March 8th. There is a motion on the floor made by Commissioner Galimba and seconded by Commissioner Zelko-Schlueter to pass CA -19 on Initial Approval. At this time I would like to... because it was postponed, we can just start right? MR. HENRICKS: Correct. CHR. ADAMS: So we are in discussion on the motion and I would invite Commissioner Hopkins to speak to this. MR. HOPKINS: Yes, thank you very much for this and thank you for postponing it because I had missed the meeting where it was brought up and thank you for... Commissioner Galimba for bringing it up. I appreciate that. I am putting this amendment up here basically looking at an issue of inequality in our tax system. We have... I am not going to talk about you know, the major things where we have enormous distortions in our tax system right now with agricultural exemptions and a number of the other ones here with the assessment. I am not going to be looking at that one. I am particularly just looking at this one issue of minimum tax and for disclosure which I did put in the analysis there, I am one of these people that's hit with minimum tax on a couple of parcels that I inherited from my brother which hopefully I won't own for too much longer, but these parcels are appraised at about $3,000 and that is market price, and yet we pay $200 a year in tax on them. While at the same time we have parcels up in Hamakua and I put a very detailed analysis in there, of looking at things. We have parcels up in Hamakua that because they have used an agricultural tax Page 31 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 exemption even though they are valued at a market rate of over a million dollars, they pay the same tax rate that we pay, $200 per year. So we had some Communications that came back from the Property Tax office. One saying oh, well, the State says that you know, this is given to the County and we don't think it should be in the Charter, and I apologize if I am misstating the Finance Director's position on that, but I find that rather disingenuous because at the same time the way I understand it, the County is allowed to do taxes, the County is allowed to set the terms of those taxes, but yet we have the Finance Department saying the citizens of the County through its Charter doesn't have that right. I disagree with them on that. I have asked our counsel for advice on the thing of is there anything in the State, you know in HRS or the other ones there that say we cannot place this in the Charter? As far as I understand, there is nothing that says that we cannot do it. Okay? We are just saying, I am just asking, that we do not have a minimum tax. And that our tax rates be based on the value of the property. A couple of the other ones here. Is, I would have loved to have known how many people actually pay minimum tax. How much does it... how much would have been... how much is it going to impact our County? Are we trying to balance our tax... our budget on the backs of our property owners who own the cheapest lots in this County of $3,000 lot, while we are letting people who have hundreds of thousands of dollars lot, get away with the same tax. It is just purely a matter of fairness on here. Doing the analysis based on there, using average prices for Hamakua land, if somebody up in Hamakua is raising livestock, 292 acres will pay the same $200, the same $200 tax as somebody raising vegetables on a thousand square feet down in Nanawale. They are both farmers, but they get very different tax, the ones there, so and you know we are not asking for a whole lot of parcels either on this. We are just saying be fair about it. And then hopefully someday this County will actually straighten up its tax code and try to make a fair tax code for everybody. Although I have been involved in this thing for over 25 years and I am not real optimistic about it, so again, what I am just asking for is fairness here and I don't think it is going to have that major... an impact on this, although I do agree with... that it is easy to, oh, we will just have a minimum. But sometimes easiness is not fair. In this case let's try to be fair. Thank you. CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Rice. MS. RICE: I see the Finance Director here. Could... is it appropriate to ask her a couple of questions on this? It is not an area that I have any knowledge of basically. CHR. ADAMS: Without objection, would the Finance Director and Ms. Miura would be willing to come forward to address questions from the Commission. And I would ask you to state your name. Page 32 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 (Note: At this time, Director Deanna Sako came forward to address the members of the Commission.) MS. SAKO: Deanna Sako Director of Finance and Lisa Miura our Real Property Tax Administrator is here today. So Lisa can probably handle most of the questions but sure, go ahead. MS. RICE: First of all, the minimum tax was put in as I recall, a few years back. There was no minimum tax. Is that correct? And then it was put in and... or what was the rationale for the minimum tax as far as versus the assessed value of the property? (Note: At this time, Lisa Miura, County Real Property Tax Administrator came forward to address the members of the Commission.) MS. MIURA: So the minimum tax has actually been around for a while. The increase from $100 minimum tax... MS. RICE: Oh, okay. MS. MIURA: to $200 tax was just several years ago and from what I understand because the minimum tax was created years before I came to Real Property, was that it was to get a fair share from everybody because there is a minimal amount that is required to provide services to Hawai`i the residents on the island. MS. SAKO: So one of the logics with that, was that you know, whatever size property you own, it is the real property taxes that pay for all of the services each and every resident receives. Whether it is police protection, fire protection, having ambulances come to your house, you know, the park services, the free zoo, all of that, so that was part of why the minimum tax was implemented, that everyone would pay their fair share, because there are a lot of services on our island that people don't pay for. MS. RICE: Okay. I see. Thank you. CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Hopkins. MR. HOPKINS: I have actually several questions. First one, you know, you have a copy of my analysis. Were my numbers substantially wrong or were they fairly accu... no big... no large error in the way that the computations were... what I made for an example. I am hoping that I was correct in what I provided to the Charter Commission. Page 33 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MS. MIURA: Sorry, Lisa Miura with Real Property Tax, it was a couple of months ago I reviewed it for the last meeting that I think they ended up not having it, I recall the numbers were correct, but it was very, it was very skewed because it didn't provide a very overall explanation of the min tax program. I do have answers to some of the other questions that you just asked earlier and I don't know when it is appropriate to address the group. Okay. There's approximately 46,000 parcels that are in the minimum tax bracket and your other question was approximately how much funds is generated. It is between 4-5 million dollars, so the Council would need to find that revenue elsewhere. I think one of the questions or the comments was about agricultural properties. There is a difference when a property is sitting vacant doing nothing and the County Council, Administration, and the constituents of the island did press for many years to have agricultural be active, and so they do provide a break when property is used as agriculture. I know there was a concern I believe, that the Ag (agriculture) was not paying enough and people were paying too little, by getting rid of the minimum tax, 4,000 of those parcels would actually pay less than minimum tax and I am not sure you were aware of that in the analysis because you probably didn't have access to that data. The other thing with the Ag group and me and you have never met before, I have been with the Property Tax since 2011, so I realize you have a lot of concerns, but there is a Real Property Review Group and an Ag Committee that is made up of ranchers, people from the Cattlemen's Association, part of the agricultural community, and they do have a large proposal that will come before County Council this year that is to address the discrepancies especially with property in Puna, trying to do farms where our Ag program is actually at a higher value than what their market value would be. So I disagree with your statement that we are doing nothing. MR. HOPKINS: Oh well, yeah. On the one there, I have a question though. But is it fair and this is a personal question, you don't have to answer it. You can decline. Is it fair for somebody who has 292 acres of land be paying the same tax rate, or the same amount of tax as someone who has 8,000 square feet? MS. MIURA: Well, if that 8,000 square feet... MR. HOPKINS: If they are both doing agriculture. Let's just say they are both doing agriculture. MS. MIURA: Okay. MR. HOPKINS: Now they are different types of agriculture. MS. MIURA: Correct. Page 34 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MR. HOPKINS: One may be doing vegetables which I will disclose we have... we grow kava on our property. We pay, somebody with... somebody is running a few dozen cattle, is paying two, the same $200 for the 292 acres as I pay on my 8,000 square feet. MS. MIURA: A few dozen cattle on 292 acres, depending on where the property is located, I would say for a majority of the island, 292 acres could and hopefully can support more than just a dozen cattle. However, unless you have a specific example for that one, I would say most ranchers would say they could have more cattle on it. We have come across other properties, I don't know your property exactly, but there is differences you know, we have had ranchers tell us that the carrying capacity that our office states should be allowed for the 10 acres is too high in some areas and that it does change depending on the year, and the season, and the type of grass allowed, and the rain, but it should not be the same rate. You shouldn't, it is not the same tax rate because the tax rates actually are the same and it is nine thirty-five no matter what you have. But I think you are saying the actual taxes paid, and it does depend right now how the Code is written and how the values are set for agriculture orchards, or intensive Ag is at a higher value than pasture. Pasture is the lowest value there is because of all of the resources it does take to generate income off of a ranch. And I know there is discretion... there is discrepancies and people argue back and forth on that, but right now as it is written, that is how it is. The Ag Committee does have a proposal to change that. MR. HOPKINS: Well, I hope you do have a proposal, one way or another because basically I can guarantee you that the person with that 292 acres did not pay the same price that was paid for the 8,000 square feet. That the market price between that 292 acres and the market price for that 8,000 square feet are very, very different. MS. MIURA: That's true. The program for agriculture is not based on the market value as it is right now because they are trying to encourage people to farm. If you start going by a percent of value, you may start to see a lot of people get out of agriculture and sell it to develop which I believe is not the purpose of our agricultural programs. MR. HOPKINS: Okay, we can get into a whole thing. Obviously like you have said, we haven't met, I sat on the Ag Taxation Board, the Ad Hoc Committee for Ag Taxation years ago and I am actually in the College of Ag so I support agriculture but we have a very unfair process right now. MS. MIURA: Mmm-hmm. MR. HOPKINS: And maybe we can agree that it is not doing what it is supposed to be doing. And we can bring up a lot of examples to show where it is not doing Page 35 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 that and my thing with a few cattle here and there for hiding, for quote, I won't say evading, what is the proper word, it is not tax evasion, avoid... for avoiding taxes... MS. MIURA: Mmm-hmm, right. MR. HOPKINS: Which these farmers do, which I quote, I don't call them farmers... MS. MIURA: Right. MR. HOPKINS: I want to support the real farmers like Ms. Galimba over here. MS. MIURA: Correct. MR. HOPKINS: I want to support them. I don't like what we have seen has happened in Hamakua, where basically our land has been pulled off and we have a few people that are really farming, but most of it is really sitting idle. Okay. MS. MIURA: Thank you. We agree and it is the loopholes that everybody wants to close so that we can make it more advantageous for farmers. I am just not sure it is good to handle it in the min tax. It is two separate issues. MR. HOPKINS: Okay. Thank you, very much for your comments. CHR. ADAMS: Are there any other questions? Commissioner Todd. MS. TODD: Well, actually I think the problem that I have with this proposal is not so much a question as an interpretation of the State Constitution and the State of Hawai`i Revised Statutes. Under the Constitution, the taxing power is reserved to the Counties when it comes to real property taxes and that is Article 8, Section 3, where it is reserved entirely to the Counties. However under HRS, when it talks about setting up a Charter, HRS Section 46-1.5 under the General Powers and Limitations of the Counties, and this is where the power to set up the Charter is, it is in the HRS and basically it talks about a Charter. Under 46-1.5, subsection 1, "Each County shall have the power to frame and adopt a Charter for its own self-government that shall establish the County Executive, Administrative, and Legislative structure and organization. Including but not limited to the method of appointment or election of officials, their duties, responsibilities, compensation, and terms of their office." Further down in that subsection 46-1.5, subsection 25, it talks about the Mayor by Executive Order, may exempt certain entities from property taxes, water, sewer development etc. etc. Provided that a County may enact ordinances to regulate Page 36 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 and grant exemptions granted by the paragraph. And what I am thinking is that when you read the language of the Constitution, the enabling language under the Hawai`i Revised Statues, when it comes to setting real property taxes and rates, it really is a question of whether you can put that in a Charter or whether it is intended to be more of an Administrative and Legislative act and I think that that when you read everything together, that it is intended to be in the nature of more of a legislative act by ordinance as opposed to putting something in the Charter and that reflects the fact that typically Charters aren't revised on a yearly basis. Whereas an ordinance you can revise it on a yearly basis and then thereby create more flexibility. I think that trying to put something like this into the Charter is basically undermining our structure of government where the taxing authority is supposed to reside in the Council and through ordinance and it is too inflexible. I don't know that you can legally do it in the Charter and that is the question that I have. Cause when I read the Constitution and the HRS, but beyond that, I don't think that an individual case or an individual inequity in the application should then run how we adjust the tax code. It needs to be broader than that and it needs to be driven by a number of things. I personally you know, am happy in some cases that there is a minimum tax because not so much now, but I, when I used to look up the taxes on residences in my neighborhood, and I would find out that with all of the exemptions that you got for senior citizens, for disability, etc. etc. etc. not to mention the three percent cap and then the additional exemptions for valuations of properties worth less than a certain amount, that my neighbors, a number of them who, same house, same blueprint, four bedroom, two bath, four bedroom, two bath, all built at the same time, were paying substantially less than I was and would have paid almost nothing but for the minimum tax being there. And yet these were people who owned businesses, who I knew flew to Vegas several times a year, so they could definitely afford to pay more, and the inequities in the system frequently mean that younger property owners who have bought more recently end up paying more in real property taxes than homes that were bought a long time ago because they qualify for more exemptions, or they qualify for the three percent cap. You can't fix everything through a Charter because there are too many nuances and I don't think we should be cherry picking a particular issue in the Real Property Tax Code to fix in the Charter. Beyond that I don't know that we have the authority to do it in a Charter. Thank you. CHR. ADAMS: Any other comments from the Commission? Commissioner Rice. MS. RICE: I would agree with Commissioner Todd. I think that the... by putting it in the Charter we remove some of the flexibility and because the economy within the island changes and sometimes drastically, as when sugar went out, I think that the Administration and the legislative branch need the flexibility to Page 37 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 adjust the property taxes accordingly and therefore I would not be in favor of putting it in the Charter. CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Hamano. MR. HAMANO: Yes, I would like to know from our Corporation Counsel whether you know, this proposal if enacted, would violate any portion of Hawai`i Revised Statutes or the Constitution. CHR. ADAMS: Mr. Yoshimoto. MR. YOSHIMOTO: Executive Session. CHR. ADAMS: Without objections, let's move in to Executive Session to consider the question. MR. HENRICKS: We would need to have a motion and a successful vote. CHR. ADAMS: I am trying to apparently not follow rules. Do I have a motion to go into Executive Session? MR. HAMANO: So moved. MS. TODD: To discuss... CHR. ADAMS: One second. MS. TODD: To discuss the specific issues related to the taxing authority and the authority of a Charter under the Constitution and the Hawai`i Revised Statutes. CHR. ADAMS: Who made the motion? MR. HAMANO: I did. CHR. ADAMS: Alright and the second? (inaudible off mic) Alright, motion by Commissioner Hamano, seconded Commission Saquing with the addendum, friendly addendum provided by Commissioner Todd. MR. HENRICKS: And also just generically to comport with HRS, to discuss the County's liabilities, immunities, privileges, and that nature. That's what would allow for the Executive Session. CHR. ADAMS: Great. That as well. MR. HENRICKS: Correct. Thank you. Page 38 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 Vote on Motion To enter into Executive Session (Approved) RECESS: RECONVENE: CHR. ADAMS: All in favor please signify by saying "aye" (aye), any opposed? Was that an "aye" Commissioner Galimba? Thank you. Ten "ayes", pass unanimously with Commissioner Bergin... let's clear the room please. Commissioner Hamamo moved to enter into Executive Session in order to hold attorney-client privilege discussion regarding Proposal No. CA -19, whether, if enacted, would violate any portion of Hawai`i Revised Statutes or the Constitution to discuss the County's liabilities, immunities, privileges, and that nature. Seconded by Commissioner Saquing. Ayes: Noes: Absent: Excused: Commissioners Galimba, Hamano, Hopkins, Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd, Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10 None. Commissioner Bergin —1 None. At 11:47 a.m., the Chair called for a recess to go into Executive Session. The meeting reconvened at 12:03 p.m. CHR. ADAMS: Let's return from the brief recess, we are now in open session. If I could ask our Finance folks to please come back to the table, I believe we have an additional question from one of the Commissioners. Thank you so much for doing so. MR. HOPKINS: If I could get a little bit of... I am a little bit confused on a couple of the numbers that were given. How many parcels are subject to the minimum tax right now? MS. MIURA: Lisa Miura, Real Property Tax. Approximately 46,000. MR. HOPKINS: So 46,000 parcels and if we went back and went and just taxed them on appraised rates instead of the minimum, what was the loss going to be to the County? MS. MIURA: Okay, so I just want to clarify. We have properties in the homeowner exemption that are getting lower minimum tax rates, so are you saying if we got rid of those as well? Page 39 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MR. HOPKINS: No. I am just saying just the minimum, the $200, the people that are subject to the $200. If we did away with the $200 minimum, well actually the way this one is yeah, it would probably be... MS. MIURA: Yeah, it would affect... so it would also affect those that are getting they are pure exempt as well, so I just want to make sure it is... that everybody is aware, it would include those that are like non -profits, and credit unions, and everybody that has that minimum tax. And that is between 4-5 million depending on what the tax rates are for that year. MR. HOPKINS: On the 46,000 parcels that you are talking about... MS. MIURA: Correct. MR. HOPKINS: 46,000 time $200 is less than 10 million dollars. MS. MIURA: Right, but what you have to consider is that is... the four point... the 4-5 million is the difference. That is what we would lose. There is a certain amount they would pay in taxes anyway. Not all of them would be zero. Some would be paying $10, some might be paying $190, so that is actually the difference that we would lose by getting rid of minimum tax. MR. HOPKINS: So we are going to be losing about 4 or 5 million? MS. MIURA: Correct. MR. HOPKINS: Okay. I was hearing 45, that's... MS. MIURA: Oh no. No. No. MR. HOPKINS: That's where I was very confused. Sony. MS. MIURA: I almost fainted. MR. HOPKINS: So it is 4 or 5 million is what we are talking about. MS. MIURA: Four to 5 million, correct. MR. HOPKINS: Okay, fine. Thank you. CHR. ADAMS: Are there any other questions or... okay, we have a motion on the floor. Is there any other discussion on the motion? Thank you so much Lisa... Steve. Do we have any other comments or discussion on the motion? MS. TODD: Can you repeat the motion? Page 40 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 CHR. ADAMS: Certainly. The motion is to approve on initial read... for Initial Approval, CA -19 which is the proposal to add a new Section to Article X, Financial Procedures. To prohibit the County from applying a minimum real property tax and unless otherwise provided for by ordinance, require that real property taxes be levied based on the assessed value of the parcel and any improvements thereto. All in favor of the motion please signify by saying "aye" (aye), all opposed? (aye), "naye"... opinion of the Chair, the "naves" have it. Do we need by individuals? MR. HENRICKS: Yeah, if we could just get a vote count, perhaps... CHR. ADAMS: Right. The vote was...the understanding of the Chair, the vote count was 9-1. MR. HENRICKS: Okay. CHR. ADAMS: Or 1-9, whichever the correct phrasing is, with Commissioner Hopkins the lone "aye". All other Commissioners present "naye", and Commissioner Bergin excused. MR. HENRICKS: Okay. Thank you. Vote on Motion The motion to pass CA -19 failed on Initial Approval by the following voice vote: To Approve CA -19 (Failed): Ayes: Commissioner Hopkins —1 Noes: Commissioners Galimba, Hamano, Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd, Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams — 9 Absent: Commissioner Bergin —1 Excused: None. NEW BUSINESS: The Chair directed the Commission to proceed to the next order of business, New Business. CHR. ADAMS: Moving into New Business. Communication No. 35.19 which transmits CA -18, Draft 2 for First Reading. Do I have a motion to approve CA - 18, Draft 2 for First Reading? It has been moved by Commissioner Roehrig. Do I have a second? Second. Commissioner Springer seconds. Is there a discussion? Page 41 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 Commissioner Rice. MS. RICE: I would like to amend CA -18 to put back in the ability of the stewardship group to pay certain people for specific duties. We tied it down a little bit so that it would not be cart blanche and that it would have to be part of the business plan, which would be approved by the Department of Finance and also the PONC Commission, so my amendment... do I do that now? CHR. ADAMS: You may do that now. MS. RICE: Okay. My amendment would be on (h), (6) and the specific paragraph is no officer, board member, etc. will receive any reimbursement for stewardship work on the project and this is the new part "unless they are paid for specific duties that are approved as part of their business plan." CHR. ADAMS: Is there a second to that motion? MS. TODD: Second. CHR. ADAMS: It has been seconded by Commissioner Todd. MS. RICE: Then can I speak? CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Rice may speak to... MS. RICE: I think we have heard at great length... CHR. ADAMS: Unless there is a point of order? MR. HAMANO: Yeah. I... MS. RICE: Oh, I am sorry. CHR. ADAMS: Is there? MR. HAMANO: I bring a point of order. CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Hamano, you have the point of order. MR. HAMANO: I object to the motion only in the sense that you know, I believe that on like March 8th right, we were considering you know this CA -18 and it was amended to delete that section and now we are bringing it up to try to put it back. So I believe it is an improper motion. CHR. ADAMS: I believe that I need to rule on the point of order. I find the point of order is in fact in order and that this particular motion is, I am sure there is Page 42 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 some wording that I am supposed to say, but it is an inappropriate... it is not allowed by our own rules. MS. RICE: Now what? So now what? CHR. ADAMS: So it means no motion. MS. RICE: So I can't amend this further? CHR. ADAMS: You can amend it further, but not in this particular way. MS. RICE: Because... oh, okay. I need some advice. CHR. ADAMS: So let me... MS. RICE: Because we...we have heard... MR. HENRICKS: So where we are at... MS. RICE: We heard at the... I thought one of the things that happened at the public hearings which was where we were to hear from the public to... in order to further improve our work, was that the stewardship groups wanted to be able to pay on certain occasions based on their business plan, employees. So can I not somehow not incorporate that? MR. HENRICKS: Mr Hamano's point of order was that there was a motion and a vote on this matter and that vote led us to where we are now with the language that we have. To take it up again would require a reconsideration of our rules. The opportunity for reconsideration is no longer there. You either have to do it at the same meeting or at the next meeting, but it has to be noticed that a member who voted on the prevailing side would like to reconsider that motion. So whenever you have a motion that accomplishes something, the only way to undo that motion is through reconsideration. That is the parliamentary opportunity to do so. When reconsideration opportunities are not brought forward and voted upon, you have to move forward. You can't revert and move backwards. MS. RICE: So I would make a motion to reconsider? MR. HENRICKS: That opportunity is not available anymore. CHR. ADAMS: It already...Right. That would have... you had at that meeting or five working days... MR. HENRICKS: Correct. Page 43 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 CHR. ADAMS: After the close of the March 8 meeting to identify that you were going to then at this meeting make a motion to reconsider that vote. MS. RICE: The problem is that because, until we had gotten the public hearings through and I heard from the public, I didn't have... I didn't know how strong the stewardship groups felt about this. MR. HENRICKS: That may or may not be the case, but that doesn't... MS. RICE: So what we hear at the public hearing is not going to impact this? CHR. ADAMS: This particular vote on whether or not non-profit organizations, stewardship groups in the parlance can be paid, was in the original motion. Was in the original amendment... MS. RICE: Correct. CHR. ADAMS: There was discussion after having heard from, this is my... I am just elucidating what I believe occurred right? So we heard public testimony about that. We then had a distinctive, we had a comprehensive among the Commissioners about this particular... MS. RICE: Correct. CHR. ADAMS: And then there was a vote to remove that portion from the amendment. There was amendment which removed that payment element from this particular Charter Amendment. MS. RICE: Right. CHR. ADAMS: Right, so to now say no we are going to go back and we are going to re -do that vote. That is what your motion is asking us to do. Yes, did we hear from the public that... did we hear in public hearings the fact that there is a desire that stewardship groups be paid? Yes. We heard that. I heard it too. But this particular motion, it was already considered as a part of the March 8th meeting. MS. RICE: So even if I change the verbiage, cause I changed the verbiage a little bit. CHR. ADAMS: The idea is still... MS. RICE: Correct. Okay. CHR. ADAMS: You see what I am saying? Page 44 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MS. RICE: Okay. Okay. CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Hopkins. MR. HOPKINS: So please correct me if I am wrong. So we cannot reconsider because of the timelines that we have. It wasn't done within the meeting. But we could vote to rescind. There is reconsider and rescind. MR. HENRICKS: I am not aware of a "rescind". MR. HOPKINS: Rescind is another option under Roberts Rules you may check. Under rescind we basically, we vote to do away with the motion completely that we did before and we restart the process. MR. HENRICKS: That doesn't sound accurate to me at all because that would then mean, see the motion of reconsideration is a very powerful motion, so any other actions or activities that then dilute the reconsideration process don't seem proper to me. That is the opportunity to essentially revert and reconsider the Commission's actions. CHR. ADAMS: The idea of if I may... MR. HENRICKS: Please. CHR. ADAMS: The idea of the motion to rescind is done at the time. It is when things have become so confusing that everybody is just lost total control of what is happening. We are not in that situation right now. This is, this is another meeting past when we actually had that meeting. Now, I would tell you that there is an option available and that is that the Commission can decide that... there can be an objection to my ruling on the point of order. We have already done... seen that happen before right, and then the Commission can if there is, then the Commission can vote on the Chair's ruling. So I would just point that out that that is an option if that is something that Commissioner wants to go through. We are about to move forward though. Yes, Commissioner Hopkins. MR. HOPKINS: Could I just ask that you check that out because I am reading Robert's Rules... MR. HENRICKS: Check it out right now in this moment? MR. HOPKINS: No, no, just ... at your convenience. MR. HENRICKS: I will but... Page 45 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MR. HOPKINS: Rescind is... requires a two-thirds vote according to the rules. According to what I have looked at. That's all, which I may be totally reading it wrong, okay? MR. HENRICKS: And I make no comment on that. I would say right now I am not familiar with such a motion. I have never encountered it. It is an unfamiliar territory for me. I am glad to research it and learn more. MR. HOPKINS: Thank you. MR. HENRICKS: Absolutely. CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Todd. MS. TODD: Couple of comments. It is true that under Robert's Rules a motion for reconsideration has to be made by the prevailing party. On the vote Commissioner Rice, Galimba, me, and Chair Adams were the ones that voted no, so in theory a motion for reconsideration cannot be initiated by the four of us who voted no. It has to be by the people who were in the majority. On the other hand, the Chair's ruling defeats the entire purpose of the public hearings that we went to. If we are... CHR. ADAMS: If we could maintain decorum please. Thank you. MS. TODD: If we are unable to take the public testimony into consideration in reviewing the amendments then you basically have made the testimony at the public hearings worthless because people came and testified about something and Commission is powerless to take that testimony and then apply it after coming back from the public hearing. And so, I question whether the application of Robert's Rules to this particular situation basically undermines the entire process. And then the second half of that would be if this goes to the County Council and the County Council says we want this language back in, does this ruling then preclude the Commission from agreeing with the County Council if the County Council says they want language in there that says they want the ability to pay salaries under the stewardship grants, but because we already voted one way, does the County Council then lose its authority to recommend that we go back to that language? So I am just...saying that one, I think that application of Robert's Rules undermines the entire purpose of the public hearings and two, if that is the ruling, does the Commission have the ability to then go back after the County Council has reviewed it if they say that we would like to have a stewardship grant salaries, or are we foreclosed because we voted a particular way? Thank you. CHR. ADAMS: So let me speak to that. Once we have... let me address the second first. In my view as... and it has some weight since I am the Chair. Once we send in a Final Report to the Council, that starts a new clock right. In other Page 46 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 words, when they do their work and it comes back to us, it is a new... everything is new for us at that point. And so anything that they are bringing to us and our ability to deal with the packet that is returned to us with potentially any alternatives then it becomes our ability to deal with it new. MS. TODD: Okay. CHR. ADAMS: Okay. That is my view on that. To... I completely get, on the first point, I completely get the idea that the public hearings are designed for us to receive feedback, receive information... perspectives from the public on the proposals that we had received to that point. I am also cognizant of opening all elements of all proposals back up, which I think would do no one any good. So my ruling stands. Again, there is a way for the Commission to decide that the Chair doesn't know what he is talking about by vote, and I just offer that. As the way... a parliamentary... a parliamentarian way of moving back through this. Commissioner Todd. MS. TODD: I have another question which is, there is nothing that precludes the County Council from initiating their own Charter amendments to be put on the ballot at the same time as the Charter Commission's proposed amendments, is there? MR. HENRICKS: That is an excellent question that I don't think we have an answer to. I would note historically there has never been in the many, many years for the four previous, five previous Commissions we have had. CHR. ADAMS: Right. MR. HENRICKS: Any Council initiated amendments... is it out of deference to the Commission? Or is it because of law, is it prohibited? I don't know, but I wonder if because the Commission is granted this authority every ten years to review the Charter and if we observe Chapter 50, it means the Council can present alternatives but not new things, and also the possibility that if we presume that the Council can on its own, initiate amendments, could it not then initiate amendments that cover the same area but conflict with what the Commission has done and what kind of havoc that would wreak on the voting system, that perhaps there is a good reason, and even if it is not exclusively or expressly prohibited by law anywhere, that has not happened in the past. CHAR. ADAMS: That is just a statement of fact. That is not a statement of opinion. Commissioner Hamano. Page 47 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MR. HAMAMO: Yeah, I would like to know either from Mr. Henricks or Mr. Yoshimoto, you know, from your understanding from the Robert's Rules of Order, is the Chairman wrong or correct on his assessment of the point of order? MR. HENRICKS: I think we will probably both say a few words. I think my opinion which is what you are asking me for, I think the most important thing is and again I would agree, part of the reason the public hearings was to hear from the public, but what if the public had said bring back this proposal that was voted down? What if... so it opens up... I think what... if I understood correctly, too many possibilities, and quite frankly you know, parliamentary procedure is what it is and it doesn't have a heart or a mind. It is just simply our rules that are created to forward the Commission's business and keep the Commission moving towards an end result rather than going sideways, back and forth. So I think... I just want to be clear, I think we are all cognizant of that and that there is testimony coming forward and there may be other opportunities for these things to happen as we move forward and as far as all of the other questions that I think that the Chair did a great job of answering as far as what the Council's prerogatives may or may not be, we can cross those bridges you know, as they become built and ready to be crossed, but when I look at what is being offered and I look at what was voted on, and I would also note at the time that the matter was voted on by this Commission, there was ample testimony that supported making sure that stewardship groups could be compensated, so it wasn't a new concept that the public hearings had evoked. But even if that were not the case, I would still err on the side of a pretty strict application of Robert's to make sure that by and large the Commission is making decisions that will withstand challenge based on procedural matters. MR. YOSHIMOTO: Commissioner Hamano, so my understanding is the Chair has based his ruling on our... the application of our rules, the Commission rules 10 (c) sub number two, which basically states and I am paraphrasing here, but if the proposal is disapproved at this step, the proposal shall be deemed lost and shall not be considered again except upon a vote to reconsider. This shall be considered the First Reading of the proposal. Then you look at Rule 6(e) Reconsideration, then it talks about the timelines and you know the Chair interpreted those rules, that rule to indicate that the timeline has since passed. So you know in my opinion he, the Chair, is interpreting the rules accurately. What the body decides to do of course is up to the body. The body could disregard its rules and you know make exceptions. That is a whole nother matter. I mean you know, that is technically within the discretion that is why if someone wanted to appeal the Chair's ruling the body can act in that way. And so it is really up to the Commission what it wants to do. I mean we have the rules for a reason. There's alternatives you know that the Council may take and I agree with Mr. Adam's interpretation that once the proposals are sent forward there is like a new timeclock that starts and the Commission is always free to update its recommendation based upon the input from the Council so there are still Page 48 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 opportunities I think, but for the issue today, I believe he is interpreting the rules correctly. CHAR. ADAMS: Commissioner Hamano. MR. HAMAMO: If someone were to challenge the Chair's ruling wouldn't it have to be based on some kind of... you know, part of the Robert's Rules of Order or anything? They cannot just challenge him... CHAR. ADAMS: They can... if there is an objection made by... my view... if there is an objection made by a Commissioner, yes, then the Commission votes. That is pretty cut and dried. Commissioner Rice. MS. RICE: But you have to have a rationale for making that objection right? CHAR. ADAMS: You have to have a rationale to be able to convince and influence the remaining Commissioners, but there is no rationale in my understanding where you have to say I object to it. You can just say I object to it. MS. RICE: Ido. CHAR. ADAMS: So we have an objection. Do... so here we are. We have an objection. We need to then move to the procedural aspect of voting on the objection. Is that correct? MR. HENRICKS: The motion would be to overrule the Chair's ruling on the point of order. CHAR. ADAMS: That's correct. MR. HENRICKS: I didn't hear that motion. CHAR. ADAMS: Right, so is that... are you making that motion? MS. RICE: I am making that motion to overrule the Chair's ruling... CHAR. ADAMS: ruling on the point of order. MS. RICE: Ruling on the point of order. CHAR. ADAMS: Is there a second? MS. TODD: I have a question before... I second it for the point of discussion. CHAR. ADAMS: Thank you. There was a second by Commissioner Todd. Page 49 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 Commissioner Todd. MS. TODD: Gosh I hate getting caught up in the rules, but generally speaking, the motion is saying that the Chair is wrong and in my view the Chair was not wrong in his interpretation of the rules. So I wonder whether the appropriate motion is to suspend the rules. CHAR. ADAMS: Okay. That's great but that is a separate. But that's a ... MS. TODD: So I am just... CHAR. ADAMS: Separate motion. MS. TODD: Cause I am, I am just... CHAR. ADAMS: And not within the... MS. TODD: No, I am just saying that, that, this motion... CHAR. ADAMS: Let's have that discussion... MS. TODD: May not be correct. CHAR. ADAMS: After this particular motion. Commissioner Zelko. MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Yeah for me I am just not okay with not following rules because you know, someone doesn't like the outcome, because that could be for anything and so for me I am not comfortable with that and I think it opens us up for challenges, so. CHAR. ADAMS: Okay. Is there any other discussion? Commissioner Saquing. MS. SAQUING: There is. I agree with Commissioner Zelko-Schlueter. I think as long as there is an opportunity for this proposal to be adjusted by the Council, it allows that wiggle room to be done at that time as opposed to doing something now which may open it up for all the past proposals. Am I correct Mr. Henricks that people could just come in and disagree with what we have already voted on? MR. HENRICKS: Well, anything could happen, but if you use the rationale that the rules shouldn't apply because the Commission has new information, then you could apply that rationale to any proposal that the Commission has considered or may... well, has considered up until today. Page 50 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MS. SAQUING: Okay. Thank you. MR. HENRICKS: We won't have new proposals. CHAR. ADAMS: Any other comments? Commissioner Hamano. MR. HAMAMO: Yeah, I feel that if we you know, if we vote in favor of this motion, you know, we are voting in favor of saying that we will you know enforce the Robert's Rules of Order you know when we feel like it and, or, if the result is not to our liking and just have any kind of arbitrary reason for you know, disagreeing with what is, what has already been said is the correct ruling of the Chair by both the... our, the Clerk Analyst, and our Corporation Counsel. CHAR. ADAMS: Commissioner Galimba. MS. GALIMBA: So I agree that having the opportunity to look at it when the Council, after the Council has looked at it is probably the best way to go, but I think there is... personally I would think that this amendment is substantive enough that we... that it should be allowed because it is a refinement of some of the questions and discussion that we had that went in to the vote previously. We hadn't really considered some of the possibilities that this amendment provides. That being said, I think it might be cleanest if we looked at it again after it comes back from the Council. MS. RICE: Can I withdraw my motion? MS. TODD: And I will withdraw my second. CHAR. ADAMS: There is no motion on the floor. So what we have on the floor then is a motion to transmit CA -18, Draft 2 for First Reading. Is there any other discussion? Hearing none, all in favor of transmitting CA -18, Draft 2 for First Reading, please signify by saying "aye" (aye). Any opposed? Motion passes unanimously with Commissioner Bergin excused. MR. HENRICKS: Just vernacular. Pass CA -18, Draft 2 on First Reading, so that it is clear. CHAR. ADAMS: What did I say? What did I say? MR. HENRICKS: Just transmit for, it just seems a little murky. We don't want to be murky. CHAR. ADAMS: Please correct my wording. Great. MR. HENRICKS: We are going to do a lot more of these. They are coming. Page 51 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 Vote on Motion To Approve CA -18, Draft 2 (Approved): CHAR. ADAMS: Pass CA -18, got it. Alright. Communication No. 37.1 which I get it, the Communication transmits, the vote passes, I understand. The motion to pass CA -18, Draft 2 on First Reading was carried by the following voice vote: Ayes: Commissioners Galimba, Hamano, Hopkins Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd, Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10 Noes: None. Absent: Commissioner Bergin —1 Excused: None. CHAR. ADAMS: Transmitting CA -20 for First Reading, the proposal amends Section 15-3. Is there a motion to trans... pass CA -20 for First Reading? MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: So moved. MS. GALIMBA: Second. CHAR. ADAMS: It has been moved by Commissioner Zelko-Schlueter and seconded by Commissioner Galimba. Is there any discussion? Commissioner Rice. MS. RICE: I am just wondering about the way this is changing. It seems to me we are making our time shorter, rather than longer to do our work. CHAR. ADAMS: That's true. MS. RICE: And I for one felt that I could use more time. MR. HENRICKS: May I, may I just put a little nuance on to that? CHAR. ADAMS: Mr. Henricks. MR. HENRICKS: In my opinion it doesn't change the amount of time that the Commission has to look at the Charter, initiate proposals, vote on those proposals, and send them to the Council. It reduces the amount of time the Commission has to craft ballot language perhaps, and do the education because as we have learned, because of HRS, it doesn't matter when the Commission starts. The Commission has a year to do its substantive work and this would not change under this proposal. It would still be one year and if I understand in discussion with Chair Page 52 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 Adams, the rationale for changing back was so... I think it was partly because of the discussion on special election and not having the proposals be deemed to be final and I guess ready for public inspection and decision making with such a large gap in time between when those proposals are final and when the general election is called. MS. RICE: Yeah, I can see the time on the end, towards the election, but the time prior to that, by starting in January instead of July, you are... MR. HENRICKS: So by starting... MS. RICE: You are cutting six months off the front end. MR. HENRICKS: By this Commission starting earlier than any other Commission has, what we have really done is add more time to the back end of the process where the Commission can look at how it wants to provide voter education. It added no time for the Commission to do its substantive work of reviewing the Charter, initiating proposals, calling public hearings, and then voting on those proposals. We still have one year according to HRS. MS. RICE: No matter what. MR. HENRICKS: And I understand that is one of the reasons why Chair Adams introduced this language which largely mirrors and reflects what is in the HRS Chapter 50, so that it would be abundantly clear that when the Commission is seated, that it does follow Chapter 50. That Chapter 50 is not just for the initiation of a Charter, but it is also for the review of Charters as is required every 10 years by our Charter. And that does not mean that I think this is a good or bad idea. I think I was just trying to articulate and make sure that we understood that as far as we understand the law to work right now, regardless of what the actual Charter says, State law gives the Commission to do the work that we described. Public hearings, initiating proposals, voting on them, and making those proposals final. MS. RICE: So if I... by starting in July, that is why we have to have everything in June to the Council? MR. HENRICKS: Correct. Yes. MS. RICE: Rather than giving us a couple more months to get our work done. MR. HENRICKS: The six months, yes. MS. RICE: So the, the problem is not with our changing this, but with the Hawai`i Revised Statutes. Page 53 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MR. HENRICKS: That is our understanding. MS. RICE: Okay. I got it. MS. TODD: Chair. CHAR. ADAMS: Commissioner Todd. MS. TODD: My concern over incorporating the language of the HRS into the Charter is that if the language of the HRS... right now the HRS governs. If the HRS... if we change this language to reflect the HRS and then the HRS is subsequently amended to give us more time but we have got this language in the Charter, then we are kind of stuck with that one year timeline even if you can get the legislature to agree to amend the HRS to provide more time. MR. YOSHIMOTO: You are correct. So, I mean that is a possibility. We have no control over that. The only thing I can suggest is that if we put in some kind of language that defers of course obviously to the HRS because the authority comes from the HRS. Right? MS. TODD: The question I have is if it is in the HRS, and the HRS governs our procedures, then is it even necessary to amend the Charter to incorporate the HRS language since it is not changing the way the HRS handles this. MR. HENRICKS: It is best to defer to the introducer on that. CHAR. ADAMS: Right. So let me address why this was introduced. In looking through the HRS, it is unclear to me that in fact, the HRS applies to any subsequent Charter Commissions after the first based on the reading. Now, have we been following the structure of the HRS for the Commissions? Mostly. But not entirely when you go back and you take a look, and so the purpose of making this clear in the Charter is so that it is clear for subsequent Commissions what the structure, what the procedures are. That is why. If it was clear to me that the HRS actually is the procedural bedrock and that it is the law for Commissions as they meet every 10 years, then I wouldn't have introduced this. MR. ROEHRIG: Jon do you agree with that? MR. HENRICKS: To a large degree yes. I think also to your point, like should the HRS change, let's say this gets enacted and it becomes part of the Charter and then clearly the next Commission wouldn't be coming up until 2029 ish right?, so should the HRS change in the interim, there would be no impact until 2029 and you know when the HRS is changed and we have had provisions that conflict in the Charter, the Council has taken it upon itself at times, to propose an amendment to essentially ask the voters to have the Charter changed to reflect the Page 54 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 provisions of the HRS. So that would be a possibility. I am not saying it would happen. The Council would still need to do that. It doesn't happen automatically. So could you end up essentially with provisions that are no longer in concert with HRS? Probably, and I am not an attorney but I would think then regardless of what the Charter says, the County would follow Hawai`i Revised Statutes and maybe that is something the Commission would look at, is you know putting an amendment to then do that. So, and you know I think that generally there can be strong arguments made for allowing State law to speak for itself and not reciting it in ordinances and it generally isn't necessary, but again I understand Chair Adams' rationale it is not concrete and it is not a bedrock. Therefore, this is why he is introducing this for the Commission's consideration and then potentially maybe for the voters to approve. MR. ROEHRIG: J, do you agree? MR. YOSHIMOTO: Yes. And also just to elaborate one further point that Chair Adams made, you know, this amendment does serve a purpose in clarifying things that HRS failed to do. Because in HRS when you look at Chapter 50, it talks about the initial Charter but it is not so clear to me that it talks about subsequent Charters, so I thought Mr. Adams... Chair Adams' amendment helped tighten up the language and make it more cohesive. I mean I agree. I think it is a... well, I won't comment on the policy matter. MS. TODD: Well in that case, I will probably vote against this because if you want to interpret the HRS as not applying to subsequent Charter Commissions, then we are not locked in to a one year right? MR. YOSHIMOTO: I didn't say that it didn't apply. I said that the HRS in some of its language didn't address certain things that Mr. Adams did in this amendment. So the amendment... MS. TODD: But you are saying that... you said that it is unclear whether it only applied to the first Commission or subsequent Commissions. MR. YOSHIMOTO: No, the language in Chapter 50, if you look at it, talks about the initial setting up of... MS. TODD: Yeah. MR. YOSHIMOTO: A Commission, but we relied upon that language for subsequent Commissions because there is no other language pertaining to subsequent Commissions. So this language addresses that and basically clarifies for our purposes what is already in HRS, so we are still based on HRS. I am not saying that HRS doesn't apply. Page 55 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MS. TODD: Well I guess the question I have is... I would rather leave some flexibility and potential to go and clarify any ambiguity in the HRS at the legislature instead of locking in the one year period in the Charter because the lesson for me this past year has been that these timelines are so tight. You come to the Commission with varying degrees of education, information, and experience in the Charter and I would argue that of the Commissioners, I probably am far more intimate with the Charter than anyone else. Having you know, been on the Council and everything else. And yet for me, some of these provisions take a long time to kind of digest, look at the impacts, and so I would think that for some of the other Commissioners who have not worked in government, or not worked with the County Council, or had to work with the application of Charter provisions, that it even takes more time to digest. And so, to the extent that it is possible to go and amend the HRS to give us more time... because that was the whole point of us being appointed, was the Council thought "hey, we are going to give you more time by appointing you early" right? MR. HENRICKS: It wasn't the Council. It was the previous Charter Commission that... MS. TODD: The previous Charter Commission... MR. HENRICKS: Started... created the earlier start date, and I did not research why ... MS. TODD: But the, but, but, but, but if you are still stuck, but if you are still stuck with one year then you know, it didn't make any difference and so I would like to leave the flexibility of going to the legislature and trying to amend it because I think that some of the proposals and the complexity of the proposals require more time and more flexibility. We are appointed for two years and yet effectively after one year our work is pretty much done. And so I am not even sure why we would meet after we, you know, send the final stuff to the Clerk. MR. HENRICKS: No disagreement with anything you just said whatsoever, but I have a grand vision for a lot of work that we are going to be doing after July. That includes making sure that our ballot questions are crystal clear and crisp, and succinct which takes... MS. TODD: And so you would come back to us to review that language? MR. HENRICKS: You guys will create. It's according to the... MS. TODD: Rules... MR. HENRICKS: HRS itself, it is the Commission that establishes what the ballot questions are. We also need to do a very robust education campaign which I envision like you know... an insert in the newspaper that we have budgeted... Page 56 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MS. TODD: Oh do we have budgeting in this year? CHAR. ADAMS: Let's umm... MR. HENRICKS: We are going a little bit far afield, but there will be work to be done. As to whether or not it is too much time to do all of that, we will see. MS. TODD: Okay. Thank you. CHAR. ADAMS: Any other? Commissioner Galimba. MS. GALIMBA: Oh sorry. CHAR. ADAMS: Any other... so let me just make a comment. I believe that the Charter needs to be a general and broad document. The ordinances are where the rubber meets the road in regulations as well. But when it comes to the actual procedure of the Commission looking at reviewing and going through the process of developing proposed amendments to the Charter for the voters' consideration, for the Council's and the voters' consideration. I am of a belief that that needs to be as rock solid as possible. I think that the more flexible or the more improvisational that is the more it is open for bringing any changes that can be made to court. And so I would rather have the procedures in this particular section be as strong and as almost restrictive as possible so that Charters... Charter Commissions know what they need to do, they do it, and there is no question about the procedures associated with doing it. Policy is a different issue. Policies are going to be worked out. The voters are going to have a view on that, and so that is why... I didn't see this necessarily as just taking the HRS and putting it into our Charter. I looked at it as making sure that our... the Charter Commission's work can withstand a review by any type of judicial body at least on the procedural aspects of it. So that is my comment. Alright, so we have a motion on the floor. I am sorry. Commissioner Hamano. MS. RICE: Ummm CHAR. ADAMS: Commissioner Hamano. Commissioner Hamano. MS. RICE: Oh, I am sorry. MR. HAMAMO: Oh, okay, thank you. Yeah, I think it is a good amendment. It fills a gap where Hawai`i Revised Statutes does not provide so I agree that you know, it makes it clearer for the County of Hawai`i and if some of the legislature wants to do something to override us or do something different, we can cross that Page 57 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 road when we come to it but I think we can take care of business for the County of Hawai`i by doing this. CHAR. ADAMS: Commissioner Rice. MS. RICE: So if we stood... if the next Commission starts in January then that means that the submittal to the County Council with the packet would be in January or December of that... of that year? I am just... I just want to know the hard time. MR. HENRICKS: It is a year. It is a year no matter when you start and finish. It is just a year. MS. RICE: So January to January? MR. HENRICKS: Most likely. Barring any... yes. MS. RICE: Yeah. Got it. Okay. CHAR. ADAMS: Commissioner Todd. MS. TODD: I have some questions in terms of the language okay. When we... the word alternative is used, is it an alternative to the proposed amendments presented to the Council, or does that mean that the... I just want to clarify... the Council can initiate new things, and I think earlier we said that the Council could not initiate new amendments, separate amendments. MR. HENRICKS: No. MS. TODD: Separate and apart? MR. HENRICKS: Well... MS. TODD: That they can make recommendations to amend our list, but that they can't initiate brand new stuff. MR. HENRICKS: According to our reading of HRS. MS. TODD: Okay. MR. HENRICKS: As far as... you had asked also if the Council could just initiate things on its own like now while you guys are doing this, and that was a separate question. MS. TODD: Yeah that was a separate question. Page 58 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MR. HENRICKS: When I read alternative, alternative is an alternative to not... an alternative... entirely different alternative. MS. TODD: Okay. MR. HENRICKS: It has to be in the same universe. And not only that but on the same planet. MS. TODD: So an alternative is as you are reading it here, means that they have to propose alternative language or an alternative amendment to the section where we have already proposed an amendment. MR. HENRICKS: Correct and you know if and when that happens, because I think I understand what you are saying. How I construe alternative and how you construe alternative, we could have alternative alternatives, but... MS. TODD: Well I just want to know what I am voting on and then the other thing is... it says that... so let's say for arguments sake, amendment 18 goes to Council, Council initiates an alternative to put the language in that says you can pay. It comes to us and same vote occurs and we vote not to include the Council language. Over here it says that any Council alternatives shall be forwarded to the Clerk, even if we didn't adopt them. Correct? So, if the Council were to suggest an amendment to proposal 18, we did not incorporate their alternative, their alternative unless recalled by the Council, would still advance to the ballot. MR. HENRICKS: So my understanding of how that would work, and I have never, we have not seen it in this County. I haven't researched the other Counties, is essentially you would have... MS. TODD: Two competing... MR. HENRICKS: No. That wouldn't work. MS. TODD: Okay. MR. HENRICKS: You are going to have one question with two options and then maybe just a no to both, and again... MS. TODD: Okay. Well, I am just trying to figure out because I want to know... MR. HENRICKS: I am very reluctant... MS. TODD: What I am walking into. Page 59 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MR. HENRICKS: To go into hypotheticals until we are looking at something because we could discuss forever potentials and hypotheticals. Again I like crossing bridges when they present themselves. MS. TODD: Well I like to cross the bridge before... I like to know if the bridge is there so I can determine whether it is safe to cross. MR. HENRICKS: And I don't know if I can help you with that because... MS. TODD: Okay. MR. HENRICKS: Because I would have to see something there and it wouldn't be my analysis, it would be a legal analysis of what is an alternative. Is this an alternative or is it a new proposal? I don't know until we look at it. MS. TODD: Okay. MR. HENRICKS: What I understand in how this process would work is if you have something that is accepted as an alternative and the Commission does not incorporate that alternative or essentially approve that alternative as what will appear on the ballot, then the voters will have choices between the two. To pick one, the other, or neither. Yeah. CHR. ADAMS: Any other comments or discussion? I would note that Commissioner Todd indicated in previous conversation in this meeting that she is not happy with the way the voting on Charter amendments occurs. This is a place to fix that if you wanted to. MS. TODD: It is not so much the voting. It is the way the voting... CHR. ADAMS: Your microphone, I am sorry... MS. TODD: It is the way votes are counted. MR. HENRICKS: I just hate to... I don't think that is true. I believe that when we read election laws, our Charter reflects what is in HRS as far as how amendments to the Charter are approved by the electorate, which is very different from the State Constitution. There is no percentage of spoiled, blank... it is... CHR. ADAMS: No, it is who voted on the... MR. HENRICKS: Correct. CHR. ADAMS: Right. MR. HENRICKS: So I believe State law controls. Page 60 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 CHR. ADAMS: Which is what this says. MR. HENRICKS: Right. Correct. CHR. ADAMS: Okay. Thank you. Alright, let's do a roll call vote on this particular motion seeing no more discussion let's have a vote. MR. HENRICKS: Mr. Bergin is absent, Ms. Galimba (aye), Mr. Hamano (aye), Mr. Hopkins (aye), Ms. Leithead-Todd (aye), Ms. Rice (aye), Mr. Roehrig (inaudible), Ms. Saquing (aye), Ms. Springer (aye), Ms. Zelko-Schlueter (aye), Chair Adams (aye). Chair Adams you have nine votes in favor. The motion passes and CA -20 is passed on First Reading. Vote on Motion The motion to pass CA -20 on First Reading was carried by the following To Approve CA -20 roll call vote: (Approved): Ayes: Commissioners Galimba, Hamano, Hopkins, Rice, Saquing, Springer, Todd, Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams — 9 Noes: Commissioner Roehrig —1 Absent: Commissioner Bergin —1 Excused: None. CHR. ADAMS: Item 3 under New Business, Communication No. 38.1, which Transmits CA -21 for First Reading, Proposal amends Section 11-5 by replacing the word "appeal" with "repeal". Any discussion? I am sorry. Is there a motion to pass CA -21 for First Reading? MS. RICE: So moved. CHR. ADAMS: It has been moved by Commissioner Rice, seconded by Commissioner Zelko-Schlueter. Any discussion? Seeing none, all in favor of the motion please signify by saying "aye" (aye), any opposed? Motion passes unanimously with Commissioner Bergin excused. Vote on Motion The motion to pass CA -21 on First Reading was carried by the following To Approve CA -21 voice vote: (Approved): Ayes: Commissioners Galimba, Hamano, Hopkins, Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd, Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10 Noes: None. Absent: Commissioner Bergin —1 Excused: None. Page 61 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 CHR. ADAMS: Communication No. 39.1 which Transmits CA -22 for First Reading, this amends Section 12-1.3 by removing the requirement that a signer of a petition to recall an elected County official include the last four digits of his or her social security number. Is there a motion to pass CA -22 on First Reading? Moved by Commissioner Zelko-Schlueter and seconded by Commissioner Hopkins. Is there any discussion? All in favor of the motion please signify by saying "aye" (aye), any opposed? Motion passes unanimously with Commissioner Bergin excused. Vote on Motion The motion to pass CA -22 on First Reading was carried by the following To Approve CA -22 voice vote: (Approved): Ayes: Commissioners Galimba, Hamano, Hopkins, Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd, Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10 Noes: None. Absent: Commissioner Bergin —1 Excused: None. CHR. ADAMS: Moving on to Item 5, Communication No. 40.1, which Transmits CA -23 for First Reading. This is a Proposal to amend Section 6-5.2 which adds the... for the Corporation Counsel qualifications by adding that an attorney must be licensed to practice law for at least five years and have at least three years of experience in administrative capacity before being eligible for appointment. Is there a motion to pass CA -23 for First Reading? It has been moved by Commissioner Zelko-Schlueter and seconded by Commissioner Galimba. Is there any discussion? Commissioner Todd. MS. TODD: Sorry, my mic was on. CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Rice. MS. RICE: Nope. Oh, sorry. CHR. ADAMS: All in favor of the motion please signify by saying "aye" (aye), any opposed? Motion passes unanimously with Commissioner Bergin excused. Page 62 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 Vote on Motion The motion to pass CA -23 on First Reading was carried by the following To Approve CA -23 voice vote: (Approved): Ayes: Commissioners Galimba, Hamano, Hopkins, Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd, Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10 Noes: None. Absent: Commissioner Bergin —1 Excused: None. CHR. ADAMS: Moving on to Item 6, Communication No. 41.1 which Transmits CA -24 for First Reading. This Proposal amends Section 7-4.2 through 7-4.4 and Section 7-4.6, having to do with the Powers, Duties, and Functions of the Fire Chief and the Fire Commission. Is there a motion to pass CA -24 for First Reading? It has been moved by Commissioner Saquing and seconded by Commissioner Springer. Is there any discussion? Commissioner Todd. MS. TODD: I forwarded a series of materials from other jurisdictions on the qualifications for a Fire Chief and I have also sent you a copy of the requirements for a Captain in our County. And I want to mention that you know, this talked about 12 years of... the proposed amendment in front of us says 12 years of fire experience of which a minimum of 10 years shall have been as Fire Captain. Well, this is highly deceptive language in the sense that in Hawai`i County you have to have been in the Fire Department for eight years before you can... and have a two year college... of college, before you can apply to become a Captain. So if you are going to require that somebody have been a Fire Captain for 10 years or more, then you are really saying that they have to have been in the Department for 18 years or more. This significantly limits the pool of applicants and if you understand the way promotions occur, it limits it even more than just 18 years because after having served eight years, if you have the requisite two years of education to go with the eight years of experience, there might not be a vacancy in a Captain's position for you to apply for. In your recruit class it may be several years before other recruits in that class have an opening where they can apply for it. And so the pool of qualified applicants becomes smaller and smaller. And you know, I will disclose, you know, my personal interest or knowledge about this is my son is a Battalion Chief and my niece is married to another Battalion Chief. My son made Captain after eight years with a two-year degree in Fire Science and he has also taught Fire Science at the community college. My niece's husband made Captain after my son. So... although he has a bachelor's degree and a two- year Emergency Medical Services Degree in addition to his bachelor degree, because it would be several years before he would be qualified to Page 63 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 apply under this amendment. And my niece's husband was the National Emergency Medical Technician of the Year. He was recognized nationally. He teaches the Emergency Medical Technician classes for the County, and I am deeply concerned about an amendment that would effectively eliminate within the next couple of years, guys who are in very responsible positions, from being able to apply. The other concern I have is that if you are familiar with the Fire Department, many guys retire after 25 years of service and that is because you know, they have a fairly decent retirement package which is negotiated in part because of the type of hazards that they go through in their job. For many guys you know, between just exhaustion or the kinds of things that they encounter, they want to retire earlier, rather than waiting for 32 years. This makes this requirement significantly more than any other department where we... we just passed an amendment that says you have to have been licensed five years as an attorney and have three years of administrative experience. Well here for Fire Department, we are saying that you have to have been a Fire... a guy in the Fire... when you add the 10 years as a Captain or higher, you are really talking about that you have to have been... have 18 years of experience and 10 years of administrative experience, far higher than we require for any other department. I hate to pass something where you end up with one person who can apply. On top of that we have a Fire Commission that is supposed to advertise, recruit, interview, and make a selection, and they have the ability to add additional requirements that you can do. Minimum requirements and preferred requirements, so I am not in favor of this proposed amendment with the exception of possession of a bachelor's degree or its equivalent. I like having that but the 10 years as a Captain which effectively makes you at least 18 years... I have an objection to. And if you look at subsection 2 the 14 years of fire experience of which a minimum 12 years shall have been as a Fire Captain, so you add the 12 years to the 8 years before you can apply, then you have to have been in the Department for 20 years before you can apply to become the Chief. In terms of the bachelor's degree. I heard people say last time that oh, any degree is okay. I have got a problem with that if the degree is going to waive years of service, the degree should have some relationship to running the department. I have a son who just got his degree in Performing Arts. I don't think that his degree in Performing Arts is equivalent to a degree in Fire Administration, or a degree in Public Administration, or a degree in Emergency Services, because those degrees are out there. The other problem that I have with this, is that it doesn't take into consideration something which the Fire Commission would normally take into consideration. Many people in the Fire Department do ongoing, annual training at the National Fire Academy in addition to the work that they have on the job. They do an additional training in Incident Command Programs that are setup through the Homeland Security, and I think that we should leave the Fire Commission in control of the requirements beyond you know, five years of experience and three years of administrative, which I think is consistent with the Page 64 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 other departments. But all of this other stuff I really have an objection to because if you end up with one person that is qualified, what do you do? What if you end up with nobody that meets those requirements that applies, if you limit the pool, it is going to make it much more difficult to get a Fire Captain. CHR. ADAMS: So, let me just ask then, so we are talking 7-4.3(c), are you making an amendment to that particular section? MS. TODD: I am proposing that we can leave the language that says the Fire Chief shall have a combination of education and experience substantially equivalent to possession of a bachelor's degree from an accredited college or university. And then everything after that be deleted, so it would delete the 12 years of Fire experience of which a minimum of 10 years shall have been as Fire Captain or higher, it would delete the whole of subsection 2, which is propose the 14 years with a minimum of 12 years as Fire Captain, because I think that that language limits. So basically everything after the word "or university", so there would be a period after "university" and everything that follows after that in the proposed C (1) and C (2), I am proposing be deleted. CHR. ADAMS: Are you wanting to add back in the items that was in 7-4.3(b)? MS. TODD: Yes. CHR. ADAMS: Okay. MS. TODD: Put back in the five years of training experience and three years of experience in a responsible administrative capacity. That would make it consistent with the other departments. CHR. ADAMS: Alright, so Commissioner Todd moves that CA -24 be amended to the extent that Item B... I am sorry 7-4.3 (b) reads "The Fire Chief shall have had a minimum of five years of training and experience in Fire Control including at least three years of experience in a responsible administrative capacity. The Fire Commission may waive any residency requirements during the Fire Chief selection process." And then (c) "The Fire Chief shall have a combination of education and experience substantially equivalent to possession of a bachelor's degree from an accredited college or university. MR. HENRICKS: May I offer something please? CHR. ADAMS: If I could before, I just... everybody got that? Okay. Mr. Henricks. Page 65 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MR. HENRICKS: It would seem to make for more logically just to state at the end of "including at least three years of experience in a responsible administrative capacity, and possess a bachelor's degree from an accredited college or university." And add that there because otherwise the introductory language in (c) is unnecessary. It is overwrought. It says "a combination of education, experience substantially equivalent to possession of a bachelor's degree." CHR. ADAMS: I am not denying that what you are saying is exactly true, I just was trying to get to a second. MR. HENRICKS: I understood. But I thought before we get a second we have to amend our motion, we should clarify what the motion is. CHR. ADAMS: Is ah... Commissioner Todd are you okay with that particular change? MS. TODD: So this would read then "The Fire Chief shall have had a minimum of five years of training and experience in Fire Control, including at least three years of experience in a responsible administrative capacity, and shall have a combination of education and experience substantially equivalent to possession of a bachelor's degree from an accredited college or university." MR. HENRICKS: No. We would be eliminating the phrase "combination of education and experience" because the experience is already before that part. That is your five years of training and experience, your three years of experience in a responsible... it would simply read... MS. TODD: Well... MR. HENRICKS: "The Fire Chief shall have a minimum of five years of training and experience in Fire Control, including at least three years of experience in a responsible administrative capacity, and possess a bachelor's degree from an accredited college or university." MS. TODD: I am not comfortable with the pure possession of a degree because in many cases, in civil service... MR. HENRICKS: That is what your amendment was focused on. You didn't add anything when you... you just wanted to retain the first part of one, but the first part of one with (c), doesn't make sense because (c) works when you have one and two which talks about education and experience. You don't need it anymore if you are retaining and bringing back. MS. TODD: No. There is a difference. Page 66 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 CHR. ADAMS: No. There is a difference. MS. TODD: The first is five years of experience in Fire Control. MR. HENRICKS: Correct. MS. TODD: The second piece of language is a combination of education and experience substantially equivalent to possession of a bachelor's degree from an accredited university or college. This is something that the human resources does all the time for different jobs. MR. HENRICKS: So you are saying that... MS. TODD: So they are separate. MR. HENRICKS: Okay. So I understand that you are saying that the Commission could determine that a person in the Fire Department or somebody from the outside has experience that they would substitute... MS. TODD: Yes. MR. HENRICKS: And say that that is equivalent to a bachelor's degree. I understand. CHR. ADAMS: And we are not... MS. TODD: Yes. MR. HENRICKS: I understand now. Thank you. CHR. ADAMS: And we are not telling them what that is in the Charter. That's a decision that the Commission or whatever makes... MS. TODD: And one of the reasons for that is that I am aware that many of the Fire Fighters attend training sessions on the mainland which are not necessarily education you know, per se at a university but they go to the National Fire Academy on the mainland to get certified in specific aspects of Fire Fighting. MR. HENRICKS: So the Chair's reading was as is, bringing (b) back. MS. TODD: Yes. MR. HENRICKS: Keeping the underlined portion that is at the end of (b) now in place? MS. TODD: Yeah. Page 67 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MR. HENRICKS: And then changing (c) just essentially remove the one, place a period after university, remove the colon, make the p in "possession" lower case... MS. TODD: Yes. MR. HENRICKS: And remove all of two. MS. TODD: Yes. Correct. MR. HENRICKS: That seems clear to me now. CHR. ADAMS: Is there a second to that proposed...It has been seconded by Commissioner Zelko-Schlueter. Commissioner Todd, you pretty much had your discussion prior to designing to that, okay. Is there any other discussion? Commissioner Rice. MS. RICE: I am looking at the Chief Rosario's request where... so how does this amendment match up with what he suggested? CHR. ADAMS: It actually, what it does, my view is that it just takes some of the stuff away. It doesn't... he had some specific things that he wanted to see in there, it just doesn't say that he can't have that, it just won't be in the Charter. MS. RICE: Okay. And he didn't explain to us in his letter how much time had already been spent by a Fireman, so we just kept adding on, is that correct? MS. TODD: Yes. I was... when I looked at the language you know, and I, and I, forgive me for not being better prepared the first time that it came before us, I then went to HR (Human Resources) and asked for the job descriptions of Fire Chief and Captain, and when I looked at it and I said well you know, you can't become a Fire Captain until you have been in the department at least eight years and have two years of college. MS. RICE: That's already...right. MS. TODD: That's already there. You can't even become a Captain, so if you add on top of that 10 years as Captain, then you are saying that a... MS. RICE: Got it. MS. TODD: Minimum before you can apply for Chief is you got to be in the department for 18 years. And I just thought that that was so much more than we Page 68 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 require for any other department that it just you know, it just was... it stuck out like the nail that gets hammered. CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Hopkins. Oh, Commissioner Hopkins. MR. HOPKINS: Excuse me if I am being too simplistic. All I see this actually doing is just increasing it from you have to have a two-year degree, that you have to have a four-year degree. That is all it's really changing. That's the only real change? MS. TODD: No. Currently there is no degree requirement to become Fire Chief okay? CHR. ADAMS: In the Charter. MS. TODD: In the Charter. Typically the Fire Commission has that either as a minimum requirement or as a preferred requirement, and sometimes they will have a minimum of a bachelor's in a particularly related field, and a preference for a master's because many jurisdictions across the country are moving towards a preference for a master's degree in Fire Administration and that is because Fire Administration has become more and more complex over the years because of the variety of things that they oversee, including enforcement of the Fire Code. And what I wanted to do really with reverting back to that five years of training and experience, and the three years, was to preserve the role of the Fire Commission in setting out the recruitment and to make sure there was a wide a pool as possible. I just felt that it was just too restrictive by going to an amendment that would basically say that you have to be in the department 18-20 years. MR. HOPKINS: Why didn't you include the statement on the university degree, related to Fire Administration, or something related to Fire Administration? MS. TODD: That would be my preference but the last time when we had this up, I heard many Commissioners say that you know, they didn't care what kind of a degree because they felt... and we talked about you know, the fact that my one kid I have... I have... my foster sons right, one's degree is in Performing Arts, the other one is about to get one in Biology, and I was aware that there were degrees in Fire Science and Fire Administration, and it seemed like the majority of the Commission did not care and just felt that as long as you had a bachelor's in anything, that that would be better, and I felt that as long as the Fire Commission is wending through it, that they will look at it. And if somebody comes in and they have got a degree in Music and somebody else comes in and they have got a degree in Public Administration, or a degree in Fire Administration, then that is probably going to weigh more in the consideration of who they select. But I am not opposed to such an amendment. Page 69 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MR. HOPKINS: Can I just ask a real quick... if we are deferring to the Fire Commission to do this anyway, then why do we even need to make the change if we are deferring to them? MS. TODD: In all honesty we probably don't if you defer. As long as you revert back to the language of the five years of training and experience and include the other amendment in 7-4.4 to describe the duties of the department with water safety. CHR. ADAMS: Part of what we are doing here is that the Fire Commission has asked us, as well as the Chief, asked us to include some additional qualifications when it came to looking at what the Charter sets as a bottom line, and so, that is why... anytime that... if you have nothing in here then you are granting the Fire Commission total carte blanche on what they can do and so I think from my perspective the idea is that this provides at least a basis for understanding that there is a minimum qualification. MS. TODD: I would say that while the Commission has required you know, as a minimum qualification, a degree, having it in the Charter is not a problem because basically... here is what a bachelor's degree means regardless of what subject it is in. It means that you have met some minimum requirement of being able to study and write and you know, do papers. And you would be surprised at how much stuff the Chief and the other deputies have to do, where they have to write up reports, and write up and review grant proposals. It becomes an important part of the job. You would...It's not strictly firefighting, but it is a skill that is required now days because of the broad range of duties that the department covers. CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Hamano. MR. HAMANO: Thank you Mr. Chair. You know... I didn't do my homework on this particular amendment, but who suggested this language and you know, (b) and (c)? Where did we get that from? CHR. ADAMS: It is a combination between the Commission and the Fire Chief. They both sent letters separately. MR. HAMANO: Oh, I see. So the combination between the Fire Commission and the Fire Chief. CHR. ADAMS: Correct. But not the amendment that Commissioner Todd has proposed. Alright we are still on that amendment. Is there any discussion on that amendment? MR. HENRICKS: Chair Adams, may I offer and not to change, in any way. I get it now. Page 70 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 Vote on Motion To Amend CA -24 (Approved): CHR. ADAMS: Mr. Henricks. MR. HENRICKS: But I just see maybe a cleaner way to put this forward. The first sentence back as is, Fire Chief ya da da da... CHR. ADAMS: Alright. MR. HENRICKS: Insert in between that and the sentence about waiving residency requirements, the language about the bachelor's, and start with "additionally, the Fire Chief shall have a combination..." and then end with university, and then the sentence about waiving residency requirements would follow. That way you have your education, experience together, and then the waiver of residency requirements after that, which seems somewhat different. MS. TODD: A little cleaner. I have no objection to, to moving that. CHR. ADAMS: And are you okay with that? Okay. So both the mover and the seconder are okay with that friendly amendment. Does everyone understand what just happened? Okay. Any other discussion? Alright, so, the motion is to amend Charter amendment 24, specifically in Section 7-4.3 to completely delete (c), and include in (b) the following: "The Fire Chief shall have had a minimum of five years of training and experience in Fire Control including at least three years of experience in a responsible administrative capacity", additional... so is there a semi there? Semicolon or a period? Okay, period. And then "Additionally, the Fire Chief shall have a combination of education and experience substantially equivalent to possession of a bachelor's degree from an accredited college or university. The Fire Commission may waive any residency requirements during the Fire Chief selection process." All in favor of said amendment please signify by saying "aye" (aye), any opposed? Alright, amendment passes. The motion to amend CA -24 was carried by the following voice vote: Ayes: Commissioners Galimba, Hamano, Hopkins, Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd, Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10 Noes: None. Absent: Commissioner Bergin —1 Excused: None. CHR. ADAMS: So we are back on the motion to pass CA -24 on First Reading. It is now CA -24, Draft 2. Is there any other discussion or comments on CA -24, Draft 2? Seeing none, all in favor of the motion to pass CA -24, Draft 2, please Page 71 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 signify by saying "aye" (aye), any opposed? Motion passes unanimously with Commissioner Bergin excused as he was on the previous amendment. Vote on Motion The motion to pass CA -24, as amended, on First Reading was carried by the To Approve CA -24, following voice vote: As amended (Approved): Ayes: Commissioners Galimba, Hamano, Hopkins, Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd, Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10 Noes: None. Absent: Commissioner Bergin - 1 Excused: None. CHR. ADAMS: Alright, moving on to... actually, does anyone want to take a brief break or do you want to keep on blowing through? Alright let's go. Item 7, Communication No. 42.1, Transmitting CA -25 for First Reading, I would entertain a motion to pass CA -25 for First Reading. It has been moved by Commissioner Springer and seconded by Commissioner Galimba. Any discussion? All in favor of the motion, please signify by saying "aye" (aye), any opposed? Motion passes unanimously with Commissioner Bergin excused. Vote on Motion The motion to pass CA -25 on First Reading was carried by the following To Approve CA -25 voice vote: (Approved): Ayes: Commissioners Galimba, Hamano, Hopkins, Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd, Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10 Noes: None. Absent: Commissioner Bergin —1 Excused: None. CHR. ADAMS: Communication 8... at this time I think I will pass my Chair duties over to the Vice -Chair. Relinquish Chair: At this time, Chair Adams relinquished the chair to Vice Chair Zelko-Schlueter. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: So, Communication No. 43.1 Transmitting CA -26, Draft 2 for First Reading, do we have a motion? Page 72 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 CHR. ADAMS: I move that we pass CA -26, Draft 2 for First Reading. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Okay. It has been motioned by Chair Adams, and seconded by Commissioner Galimba. Is there any discussion? Or maybe Chair Adams can start. CHR. ADAMS: Thanks. We have received a significant amount of correspondence over the last week or so having to do with this particular Charter amendment. Let me just say that what I had said in the past still stands at least in my view. I understand that Professional Engineers by virtue of their ability and as we heard from Mr. Ono earlier, that they have a particular responsibility, ethical obligation, that comes with the rising if you will, or the credentialing as a Professional Engineer. It is not dissimilar to these other types of credentials that one may receive, whether it is as a doctor, or lawyer, or other kinds of professions. That is not to say that that doesn't matter. But that is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about the Director of Public Works and the idea that we would say that the only person that could ever be a Director of Public Works has to be a Professional Engineer, I think is at issue and that is why... it is not that you can't have a Professional Engineer, or that you don't want one necessarily as Director of Public Works, it is that in the Charter we would no longer be saying that you have to have one. That in fact there are others who also have ethical obligations to the safety and health, and welfare of the public by virtue of them frankly becoming the Director of Public Works. So I urge passing of this. I think that it helps with identifying, increasing, expanding the potential for directors, good people, solid people that will have had experience in Public Works Department whether it is here or in other locations, and not necessarily create this small niche of those with a PE degree, thanks. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Hopkins. MR. HOPKINS: In deference to our Chair over there or Acting Chair, who has... by removing this statement of being a Professional Engineer, we are not even requiring this person to even have a degree anymore. There is no requirement in there other than that they have been in an administrative capacity in a field related to the powers, duties, and functions of the Department of Public Works. That means basically that if you had been the supervisor of five secretaries in Public Works, you have met that requirement. There is nothing... there is no requirement for the Public Works Director in here that is left. I understand and you know, I am not saying that they have to be a Professional Engineer, but if we are going to remove the Professional Engineer, we have to put in some standards for this person other than what I believe just an administrator in the Department of Public Works. Okay, that's my statement. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Rice. Page 73 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MS. RICE: Yes. I think our discussion the last time was that because the Public Works is such a broad function in the County that an engineer actually restricted the capacity of a person's ability to function on an overall basis, but I concur with the fact that we have nothing here about an education and that is relevant. He certainly... he or she should certainly have a college degree of some kind. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Saquing. MS. SAQUING: Yes. I am wondering Commissioner Adams, and I don't know, anyone in the audience who can clarify this, what is the difference between a Registered Professional Engineer, and a Registered Engineer? Are they the same thing? CHR. ADAMS: The registration, the phrasing is the same. You are a Professional Engineer or you are Registered Professional Engineer, it is the same thing. MS. SAQUING: Okay. Same, okay. I did a little bit of research because after receiving those emails and testimonies on this matter, I had a chance to look at the Honolulu Charter with regards to this topic, as well as Kaua`i, and both of them require that the Chief -Engineer be a Registered Professional Engineer. That is on O`ahu, in Honolulu, and in Kaua`i, that he shall be a Registered Engineer. I did some research because I didn't... I was trying...I am torn. You know, I, I, I think it is in the County's best interest that we get someone with that capacity and at the same time I understand where Commissioner Adams is coming from with his recommendation. So I just wanted to bring that out to my fellow Commissioners, that that is what is going on the other Counties. Kaua`i, excuse me Maui does not mandate that a Registered Professional Engineer be part of the requirement. CHR. ADAMS: We have a... if I may... MS. SAQUING: Yes. CHR. ADAMS: I am perfectly willing, I think we kind of had this conversation last time as well, I am perfectly willing to include an educational requirement if one... if there is a Commissioner who wants to make that amendment to this particular Charter amendment. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Galimba. MS. GALIMBA: Sure. I would be happy to make that amendment and I guess I am not exactly sure where would be the... let's see... at the end after Public Works perhaps? Comma and a what would the right words be? A degree from an accredited college or university, something to that effect? What is the sort of standard language Jon? Page 74 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MR. HENRICKS: Well, do we want to talk about you know, essentially the same language as was applied... a bachelor's degree from... MS. GALIMBA: Right. Right. MR. HENRICKS: And is it, is it just a bachelor's degree or is it... are we counting experience too? I mean I was confused about that but I understand now. That you don't have to have a bachelor's sometimes. You could have experience that would be deemed to be equivalent to, and there is a slight difference here to in this process in that it is not a Commission that would select this person. This is a little tangential, but it would actually be the Mayor and the Council would be confirming, so you do have a vetting process. I don't know, and it is kind of hard to answer your question in this environment, but I think if you were to add anything it would just be an "and" after the word "Public Works" and a bachelor's degree and then whatever you want after that in a field related to, or just a bachelor's degree from an accredited university or college if that is what you want, I think it would just be one sentence and then you would add you know... So you would have "The director shall have a minimum of five years' experience in an administrative capacity in a field related to the powers, duties, and functions of the Department of Public Works and a bachelor's degree from an accredited university or college." Is that what you are seeking for a simple discussion point? MS. GALIMBA: Yes. We will throw that out there. I will make that amendment. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: So it has been moved by Commissioner Galimba. Is there a second? Seconded by Commissioner Rice. Any discussion? So there has been an amendment adding that there will be a requirement of a bachelor's degree. MS. GALIMBA: And I would just add that, I mean I think that requiring a Registered Professional Engineer and I don't have a lot of experience in this area, but I have seen Registered Professional Engineers who I felt were not the best administrators, and that having that requirement might have not allowed persons that were better suited for leading a department, be in that position and I am not talking about the County of Hawai`i, I am talking about the State of Hawai`i, so I agree with removing the Registered Professional Engineer, but, and I also think that we should have at least a bachelor's degree. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Saquing. Yes, go ahead. MS. SAQUING: Can I, may I amend the amendment? Or add the verbiage as having a preferred Professional Engineer, so you have the foundation of the Page 75 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 education, but if all things were equal and someone came in with the Professional Engineer. MR. HENRICKS: That may be handled better as a separate amendment. MS. SAQUING: Okay. Yeah. MR. HENRICKS: It sounds like a different sentence. It sounds like a different sentence to me if I am following you. A fresh, clean, sentence that would be stand alone, if I am following you. And then I would just say too, for... just to make this as consistent as possible with the language that was just approved, at least as of now for the Fire Chief, it would read "the Director shall have a minimum of five years of experience in an administrative capacity in a field related to the powers, duties, and functions of the Department of Public Works, and possess a bachelor's degree from an accredited college or university." And that would be fairly consistent with the language that was just approved for Draft 2 or CA -24. MS. GALIMBA: Yes, that works for me. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Todd. MS. TODD: I am a little bit of irony here, in that this proposal will make it in theory, easier to become the head of Public Works than it is to become the head of the Department of Environmental Management. Because at least with Environmental Management it has to be a degree in a field related to the duties of the department. In Public Works which is a much larger department, and has far greater responsibility, we are not requiring that the degree be in a field related to the duties of the department and I think what we are failing to recognize is that one of the duties of the Chief... he has to sign off on plans, where he has got to review engineering specs on a building and... you have the building division look at it, and you have other people look at it, but ultimately road construction, a lot of that ends up on the desk of the head of the department. And so there are ways to get around it, by having somebody who is a licensed engineer review it first before the head of the department signs off on it, but I really think that given the duties of the department, which is in many regards technical, that a bachelor's in Engineering or a bachelor's in Architecture, or a bachelor's in Public Administration, you know, which to me are fields related to the duties of the department, should mean more than a bachelor's in Music, bachelor's in Performing Arts, a bachelor's in English Literature, which is what my bachelor's is in. And so I am a little concerned about going to the point that we don't have any... we are requiring experience in the field, the administrative experience, but I think if we are going to require a degree, that it should be a degree in a field related to the duties, because I think the example that the Chair had talked about, we have had people who have been in the Corps of Engineers and they have an engineering background and they have education, they just don't have the Page 76 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 professional license. But they have got both the experience as well as the educational component and I don't think that we should just throw it wide open. The theory of course, the fallback is always that you have the Mayor and the Council as your group that can oversee this and you would think that they would never approve somebody who would be not knowledgeable and not competent, but if we are going to go from the Licensed Professional Engineer to something else, I think we still should connect the degree to a related field. Thank you. MR. HENRICKS: Ms. Chair, before we go on, I just want to be clear because you had made a suggestion to amend this amendment to the degree...I was going to say to the degree... to make more specific about the type of degree but it was preferential and I said that might be a different in a separate amendment. If you are looking at changing this amendment to make it a requirement that the degree be in a specific field, then I would say that is appropriate to amend this amendment. So I just wanted to make sure that I didn't you know... again, when it was preferential, I think it is better as a separate sentence, but it sounded to me that you were leaning towards you would prefer that this amendment make it a requirement that the degree be in a certain type of field, so I just wanted to offer that, so I didn't suggest that your proposal couldn't be incorporated into this specific amendment. Because it is a difference between a preference as opposed to a requirement. Thank you. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Todd, were you making an amendment to the amendment? MS. TODD: Yes. I would like to amend it so that the degree has to be in a field related to the powers, duties, and functions of the Department of Public Works. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Galimba seconded. Okay, so discussion on that. Commissioner Adams. CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. Yeah, I guess the reason I didn't do that was your experience. And my concern about that and two, when I went to go look at all the variety of educational backgrounds that somebody can have, who are good Public Works Directors throughout the Country, it is a long list. So I wouldn't want to include that list of potential and you didn't in your amendment, but I wouldn't want to include that in the Charter because there are things that happen all the time that will be a part of that. And if we are comfortable with somebody deciding what a field is in education, then fine. MS. GALIMBA: Related is, I think it is a good word. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Hopkins. MR. HOPKINS: Yes, the one comment I was going to have is, and I agree with what was stated there. Is although just the statement of just being a PE is not also Page 77 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 RECESS: RECONVENE: very good because I mean you can be a PE in electronic engineering and know nothing about Public Works. So I much prefer what Commissioner Todd is suggesting. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Any further discussion? MR. HENRICKS: Prior to the vote I just again, just clarification on how this is actually going to read and this is difficult to do in this environment so I am just... bear with me just to make sure that we don't end up somewhere we don't want to be and have to make corrections. I think it is clear that what is being asked is that the years of experience in administrative capacity and the degree be related to the powers, duties, and functions of the Department of Public Works. I would suggest "The Director shall have a minimum of five years of experience in an administrative capacity and possess a bachelor's degree from an accredited university, both... and if... it doesn't make sense. It is very difficult to try to tie those things together or separate them and say what kind of a bachelor's degree. I just want to make sure that... I understand the intent, but I don't want to craft the language after we do this and take it upon myself to get that right. Perhaps a short recess to try to develop that language would be in order? Maybe five minutes at least? Ten minutes and then it would also give people time to... ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Yeah. MR. HENRICKS: Ten minutes? Thank you so much. At 1:42 p.m., the Acting Chair called for a recess. The meeting reconvened at 1:50 p.m. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Okay, we are going to call this meeting back to order. Mr. Henricks do you have something fabulous to offer? MR. HENRICKS: What I will offer is with the understanding that the Commission at this point and time prefers that the five years of experience in an administrative capacity and a degree both be related to the powers, duties, and functions of the department. So this is how I would try to accomplish that. The Director shall: 1. Have had a minimum of five years of experience in an administrative capacity, and 2. Shall possess a bachelor's degree from an accredited college or university. Stand alone, both related to the powers, duties, and functions of the Department of Public Works. That is one way to accomplish, but again, that makes it abundantly clear that both the administrative years of experience and the degree are related to the powers, Page 78 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 Vote on Motion To Amend CA -26 (Approved): duties, and functions of the department, which are essentially spelled out in the County Code at this point. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Okay. Is that okay with you, Commissioner Todd, and then the second was Commissioner Galimba. CHR. ADAMS: Clarification Chair, we are voting on the amendment to the amendment? ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Yes. MR. HENRICKS: That sounds good. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Okay. So, maybe we will do a voice vote. So all those in favor of the amendment to the amendment that Mr. Henricks just read, please signify by saying "aye" (aye). Anyone opposed? Okay. So the motion passes unanimously for the amendment to the amendment. So now we are back in the amendment. MS. GALIMBA: So we are voting on the same language, it is just the function of what we are doing? ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Okay. MS. GALIMBA: Do we need to vote on... MR. HENRICKS: That is what is on the floor. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: We are back in the amendment and we are going to take a voice vote on the amendment. All those in favor of the amendment please signify by saying "aye" (aye), anyone opposed? Okay. Motion passes unanimously. So now we are back in the motion. Is there any further discussion? The motion to amend CA -26, Draft 2, was carried by the following voice vote: Ayes: Commissioners Galimba, Hamano, Hopkins, Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd, Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10 Noes: None. Absent: Commissioner Bergin —1 Excused: None. Page 79 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MS. SAQUING: So I would like to amend the amended amendment to add a preference of Professional Engineer. The verbiage preferred Professional Engineer as part of the qualifications. MR. ROEHRIG: I'll second that. MR. HENRICKS: I need another recess. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Okay, so the amendment... MS. SAQUING: The amendment could potentially read "with a preference of Professional Engineering license." MR. HENRICKS: I thought we had accomplished attaching the degree to the powers, duties, and functions of the department? And not only that but not making it a preference, but a requirement. So... I understand that somebody could argue that a degree that is related to powers, duties, and functions is not, does not equate to an engineering degree, and that those with an engineering degree should be preferred, and I would assume that would be the Council that would read that, not the Mayor because the Mayor can pick whoever the Mayor wants. There is no preference there. The Mayor just would have to follow the minimal criteria. Is that how this would work? MS. SAQUING: I am not, I am not, I am not suggesting a degree, I am suggesting the Professional, a Registered Professional Engineer. The Professional Engineer, that that is a preference in addition to the education that you just... that we just voted on. You wanted to keep them separate. MR. HENRICKS: Okay. Understood. So I am just trying to think about how that would work functionally. When you have a Commission that appoints somebody and you have a bunch of candidates that essentially apply and interview, I am just wondering functionally when the Mayor you know, is selecting his or her cabinet, how would that work where the Mayor would be required... well not required, but would have to... I am getting ahead of my... I am getting ahead of everything. So you would like a stand-alone sentence perhaps a... MS. SAQUING: Well I think it gives the Mayor an option to look if every... if all things were equal in your applicants and if someone came in with a PE, then that person may be just kind of rise up to the top a little bit more. It doesn't say they will, but if it came down to that, that is a choice that they would have. MR. HENRICKS: Sure. My understanding of the process of how the Mayor appoints people to these positions is ... it is unilaterally. As long as they follow the minimal criteria that the Code sets out and, not Code, the Charter, and maybe even don't follow it, but that is their perspective, they can pick whoever they Page 80 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 want. So where I would see this come into play is in the confirmation portion when the Council gets it and says you know, like I suppose they could ask was there any Registered Engineers that applied?, how come you didn't pick them because this person isn't one. And perhaps they could not confirm the appointment on those grounds, but it is different than a Commission where there is more of a... as I understand it to work, a process where there is applications and things of that nature. And every Mayor can operate differently on how they would appoint their cabinet you know, it could be a more public process or it could be determined prior to them even winning office. So there is all those... that kind of spectrum of events. I am just trying to see how this would play and when you have these more aspirational provisions as opposed to clear mandates and requirements. MS. SAQUING: I see. MR. HENRICKS: Yeah. But it doesn't mean that it can't be added in if it would be and how that would play out. It could be up to the Council member to figure out, but I would say that it would be its own sentence and it would be a simple sentence that says "a degree in Engineering." MS. SAQUING: It's not a degree. MR. HENRICKS: Oh. MS. SAQUING: It's a license. It is a Registered... CHR. ADAMS: Possession of a Professional Engineer credential. MS. SAQUING: Credentials, yeah. It is not the degree. I am not... MR. HENRICKS: Yeah, I don't...I am very ignorant of all of these things. MS. SAQUING: That is kind of what the intent of this whole... his initial proposal was. Is to steer away from that Professional Engineer title I guess. Requirement. MR. HENRICKS: So that's why I say if you think of words like preference shall be provided to persons with a degree in... or sorry, excuse me, a license, or Professionally Licensed Engineers, that is essentially in my mind telling the Mayor—the Charter is telling the Mayor that, that the Mayor should... MS. SAQUING: Right. And I am basing my suggestion and my proposal on what I have read on the Honolulu Charter as well as the Kaua`i Charter. MR. HENRICKS: Do we have that language in the Honolulu Charter? That might help. Can I take a look at it? Page 81 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MS. SAQUING: Sure. I copied and pasted it. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Adams, did you... CHR. ADAMS: Yeah, I appreciate the opportunity to speak to this particular amendment. I think it is procedurally difficult to have a... to put into the Charter a preference statement, but probably more importantly, I think on a policy side, this actually... a vote for this is a vote against the original Charter amendment. I mean if you, if you want to have... say somebody should be a Registered Professional Engineer to be the Director, then vote no on this Charter Amendment. That is what, that is essentially what this amendment does and so the idea is we are looking for leaders for the department heads. I am not saying that you can't be a Professional Engineer but I am saying that there are plenty of folks out there that where we are looking for leaders to do that, and the statement of having somebody be a Professional Engineer or a Registered Professional Engineer as a preference essentially just puts us back in. MR. HENRICKS: I would also note that this language is mandatory in both City and County. And in fact Kaua`i's is terrible. It says "he" shall be a Registered Engineer. That is just terrible. Yeah. MS. GALIMBA: We should write to Kaua`i. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Galimba did you have some comments? Is there any other discussion? Yeah, I think that I would also add, I would be concerned about putting language about a preference because I really think it actually takes away some choice from the Mayor. You know if I were to look at that language and I had two applicants, even if one actually was stronger, I would feel like the Charter was telling me I should take the one with the Licensed Professional Engineer. MR. HENRICKS: So, Madame Acting Chair... ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Yes. MR. HENRICKS: Are we entertaining an amendment right now or are we entertaining passing CA -26, Draft 2, as amended, on First Reading? ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Well, Commissioner Saquing had made a motion to amend... MR. HENRICKS: And there was a second. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: And there was a second by Mr. Roehrig. Page 82 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MR. HENRICKS: A second that was recognized. Okay, I missed that. I am sorry. I thought that we were in discussion. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: So is there any other further discussion? Okay, can we take a voice vote on the amendment? MR. HENRICKS: We never settled on the language for that and... ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Oh, okay. Okay. MR. HENRICKS; And that is important that we have that on the record and so we know where we are going with that, so... how do you want to approach that Commissioner Saquing? So right now we have a sentence that essentially has a colon and then two clauses to make it clear that both the administrative experience and the bachelor's degree are related to the powers, duties, and functions of the Department of Public Works. There would be in my estimation, so that doesn't get any more... I wouldn't say complex, it is not complex but detailed, that it would be a sentence unto itself that would provide that... well no it is not the degree, I just learned that. It is the licensing that they are looking at. Right, so yeah... so I don't know how to phrase that because there are not really applicants for this job, so would we say persons who have degree, or who possess a engineer... a license in Engineering shall be preferred? And again, is that what... sorry, it's a little... it is difficult. It is mandatory. It just says... MS. SAQUING: It says the Chief Engineer shall be a Registered a Professional Engineer. MR. HENRICKS: Shall be... right, so it is clean, it is easy, it is not about... MS. SAQUING: Preference. MR. HENRICKS: Correct. So it is hard. We really can't extrapolate. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Hopkins. MR. HOPKINS: If we are wanting to, Commissioner Saquing, if you just want a sentence that says Licensed Professional Engineers will be preferred. And then we can vote that up or down. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Okay, is that accurate? MS. SAQUING: That sounds good to me. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: So we will take a voice vote on this amendment. All in favor please signify by saying "aye" (aye), anyone opposed? Page 83 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 Vote on Motion To Amend CA -26 (Failed): Vote on Motion To Approve CA -26, As amended (Approved): MR. HENRICKS: Can we do a roll call please? ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Yeah, I think we better to a roll call. MR. HENRICKS: So Mr. Bergin is absent, Ms. Galimba (naye), Mr. Hamano (naye), Mr. Hopkins (naye), Ms. Leithead-Todd (naye), Ms. Rice (inaudible), Mr. Roehrig (aye), Ms. Saquing (aye), Ms. Springer (naye), excuse me, Chair Adams, (naye), and Acting Chair Zelko-Schlueter, (naye). You have two votes in favor. The motion to amend CA -26, Draft 2, as amended, failed by the following roll call vote: Ayes: Noes: Absent: Excused: Commissioners Roehrig and Saquing - 2 Commissioners Galimba, Hamano, Hopkins, Rice, Springer, Todd, Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams — 8 Commissioner Bergin — 1 None. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Okay, so we are back in the regular motion. Is there any further discussion? Okay. So without objection we will take a voice vote on this. All those in favor of passing CA -26 on First Reading, please signify by saying "aye" (aye), oh, Draft 2, as amended, please signify by saying "aye" (aye), anyone opposed? Okay. Motion passes unanimously. The motion to pass CA -26, Draft 2, as amended, on First Reading was carried by the following voice vote: Ayes: Noes: Absent: Excused: Commissioners Galimba, Hamano, Hopkins, Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, Todd, Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams —10 None. Commissioner Bergin - 1 None. CHR. ADAMS: Reclaiming my authority. Relinquish Chair: At this time, Acting Chair Zelko-Schlueter relinquished the chair back to Chair Adams. Page 84 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 CHR. ADAMS: Without objection, I would like to move to Item No. 11, Communication No. 47, Transmitting CA -29 for Initial Approval. Is there a motion to pass CA -29 for Initial Approval? MS. GALIMBA: So moved. CHR. ADAMS: Is there a second? Right, I understand, you've got to go. So we are on Item No. 11 of New Business, we have a motion to pass CA -29 for Initial Approval, is there a second? Is there a second? Thank you. It has been moved by Commissioner Galimba and seconded by Commissioner Springer. MS. GALIMBA: We are taking it out of order because I have to leave soon. Sony. CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Galimba. Discussion. MS. GALIMBA: So this is an amendment... CHR. ADAMS: We are on Item No. 11, Communication No. 47, Charter amendment 29. MS. GALIMBA: Charter amendment 29 which is relating to CIP (Capital Improvement Projects) Projects, 29. Which I need to find myself. CHR. ADAMS: Without objection we moved out of order and jumped to Item No. 11. That's okay. MS. GALIMBA: Sorry folks. My fault. I need to leave soon, so I asked our very nice Chair to move this up. Okay, yes. So this is a proposal which will add to Section 10-6 (a)(2), and Section 10-6 is relating to CIP projects that are proposed every year. Capital Improvement Projects, and it will add the language "Capital Improvements shall be prioritized based on criteria aligned with the General Plan, Community Development Plans, and other pertinent functional plans." And the reason that I brought forward this proposal is that at this point, the Charter is silent on prioritizing Capital Improvement Projects. It only asks that department heads propose the Capital Improvement Projects and that the budget speak to how it will be funded. And I would like there to be, I believe it is important that Capital Improvement Projects, because they are very important and involve large amounts of money, that we have clear rationales for why we choose to do these Capital Improvement Projects and the order and priority by which they are funded. And so, for instance, it would be I think a good thing for us to have clear reasons given for say the... for a project to have good return on investment for our community. And some projects would provide a better return on investment Page 85 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 than others. So, and I don't want to specify exactly what those priorities are but I think that a good way to talk about them is alignment with the General Plan because that lays out the goals of this County in general and the Community Development Plans which have been such an important part of our Mayor's strategy, I believe those are really important because they talk about what each community wants to have. So we can use those plans which we spent so much money and time developing on a community by community basis, to guide the kinds of Capital Improvement Projects that we do. And that is I think the main points and if it is alright with the Chair, I would like to call up the Planning Director as well as the Finance Director to discuss this proposal. CHR. ADAMS: Without objection... provide your name when you are making comments and statements. Thank you so much. (Note: At this time, Planning Director Michael Yee came forward to address the members of the Commission.) MR. YEE: Michael Yee, Planning Director. MS. SAKO: Deanna Sako, Director of Finance. MS. GALIMBA: So I... first perhaps it would be best if you could discuss the current system that we use to develop Community... or to propose Capital Improvement Projects, and I will... I guess I will leave it to you to... who talks first. MR. YEE: So the Capital Improvement Project process generally starts with the Planning Department. We will initiate a memo to the other departments calling for their CIP projects, they provide us a list and a form of all of their requested projects, and then we could rank them or whatever. The Planning Director has the ability to rank them and to provide that to the Mayor and to Finance. When I came into the position a couple of years ago, in my second year, so last year being the first year, I instituted creating a selection or a point criteria for the projects, aligning them with some more weight toward General Plan and CDP (Community Development Plan), and then I forward that on. In the end, creating some kind of selection criteria point system doesn't really make a big difference. I could order it from one to whatever and in the end the decision is... rests with the Mayor. Also, when I provide my list the County Council can add many and is quite the regular practice, to add many projects to that list without having to go through any kind of point selection kind of prioritization process. So once it kind of leaves our hands out of Planning and goes on, we have no influence on how it gets funded and what really generally Page 86 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 gets funded. We provide an opinion, but generally we are not consulted with for the most part thereafter, unless some specific project arises. I think from a larger point of view, as the Planning Director, we can look around the island and look at a lot of the problems that we have. And a lot of it will go back to you know, not the best planning. Not the best planning around where we put infrastructure, where we wanted to have development, and so from that stand point, being smarter about where we put infrastructure, would help our next generations that grow up on this island, not to leave them with this huge problem that we have, with not having infrastructure in the right place. But again, if our CIP process isn't aligned to that, there is no promises we do that. We rely on the powers that be that can make those decisions to be aligned to that. And I am not saying that's bad, or good, it is just how we have done it so far here in Hawai`i County. And so, I think from that stand point, and then there is the whole issue around how you finance these projects, and that is well out of my realm and that is why Deanna is here today. MS. SAKO: So you know, we do have you know limited funding at any point in time. And so we generally borrow general obligation bonds to do it. So while I am not necessarily opposed to the language, I will also have to admit I haven't read the General Plan recently either. But the things that come to mind with me are like things like repairs and maintenance. So let's say the roof in this building needed fixing or something like that. You know, I am not sure how that would necessarily fall in the whole realm of this criteria, or when we have a disaster and we have to repair roads or repair buildings. Even though we frequently get FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Association) assistance, there is still a 25 percent match. So those are the things that generally seem to rise to the top of what we have to do. And so one thing I want to ensure is that this criteria wouldn't preclude those type of things from happening. But other than that, then yes, it is you know, the Mayor and Council kind of getting a say in terms of when we do the bond authorizations, you know, what the... which projects are authorized for, but I think you know, A CDP... development plans, and General Plan... are some of the criteria and are how some of the projects do get scored now. MS. GALIMBA: So would you be able to offer some language that would perhaps amend this to give it the leeway that you thought would be necessary to continue to work on the you know, rational priorities, but also give it a little bit of leeway as far as emergencies, and repairs and maintenance? MR. YEE: I wanted to add that in Section 3-15, number (c), which is on page 7 I guess of my Charter here in front of me, it reads "The Council shall enact zoning subdivisions and other such ordinances which shall contain the necessary provisions to carry out the purpose of the General Plan." So what is being suggested is somewhat duplicative, but again, wearing my Planning hat, I certainly don't mind having it in another section that makes it a little more pointed Page 87 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 to what the intention is. So with that I am just kind of adding that. So given what Deanna is saying, I would agree, we need to have flexibility for emergency and emergency repairs, and so, I have not looked at other Counties certainly in Hawai`i. I haven't looked at other jurisdictions on the continent to see other examples. I am sure there are many examples out there of how other Counties kind of address how they write about the CIP. MS. GALIMBA: I will waive my speaking role to anyone who would like to discuss this. MS. TODD: Hi. My experience both as head of Planning, and Environmental Management, and on the County Council, is that old saying "the best laid plans of mice and men oft go awry." And when we have a CIP list that far exceeds our fiscal ability to finance them, so every year when we would have to send in our list, we had to identify whether it was to comply with a court order or a lawsuit, so therefore ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) compliance, which you could argue there is language in the General Plan that might support that, but typically ADA compliance is not something specifically to where we should have urban, where we should have commercial and stuff like that which is what the General Plan is really more about. ADA compliance, and then the other list would be... is so, if there wasn't a lawsuit that ordered us to do something, if the potential risk of County liability, and this is where repair and maintenance projects would rise above other projects. And along with the court orders there would be consent decrees. We have got consent decrees that we have entered into with the EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) on certain sewer projects that have to be done. There was the big one that cost us millions when the gang cesspool requirement under the EPA came along and we had 104 gang cesspools in different Parks and Recreation, and Police, and Fire Stations, and those all had to be converted. And so, what we found is that we would have these plans but when it actually came to financing stuff, the big driver was lawsuits, consent decrees, and potential liability. And then sometimes the driver was whether the federal government would fund a project. So we have a bunch of projects and our priority is this project over here, but the Feds are saying nah, we will fund this one. And so we found that a lot of times there were external forces aside from our plans that drove what got funded. And then the other issue is on the Council and this was kind of like, I don't know whether the correct term would be tit for tat, but it is like on your General Plan, Community CDP's and other things, you might have like this is your number one priority, this is your number two, number three, and all of those might fall in one district, and what you have is you have got nine Council members and they go "whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I don't care if my project is number 20, if you are going to fund a project in that district, then you have got to fund one in mine." And so there would be that, where things would get added and then what would happen is you would have a bond float for 20 million, and there would be a 100 million dollars in projects on the bond authorization. And frequently what would get funded out of that was either what the Mayor wanted, what was pushing one of those lawsuits, or sometimes it was Page 88 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 whether the project was shovel ready, that definition. When we had the federal government give us stuff. Hey Ane Keohokalole Highway was not anywhere near the top of the heap in terms of what the County thought should go forward, and it wasn't even shovel ready, but basically the word came down from D.C. "we are going to give you 35 million for that road." So suddenly that road became number one because we had 35 million. And so we cranked out a committee, people from every department, as well as State Department of Transportation, and every week we met so that we could get it shovel ready so we wouldn't lose the 35 million. So I think you can add this language you know as a general goal, but I am going to tell you that the reality in terms of what actually gets funded is so much more complicated that I don't know how much weight these factors would actually have in terms of what gets funded because every year we had a new federal requirement that would end up driving stuff and like one is... I don't know that repairing the bridges is the General Plan stuff, but we are retrofitting and a tremendous amount of money being spent on earthquake retrofitting, and then flood retrofitting of existing infrastructure rather than new infrastructure, and that is all because it is a liability issue for the County more than anything else. So good goal, I like the idea, but I am just saying that in practical terms, I don't know that it will make that much of a difference in what actually gets funded. CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Zelko-Schlueter. MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: I agree with Commissioner Todd. I think we are going to run into the same issues you know, as the different Council members who want something for their district. You've just got various County Community Development Plans, and each district is going to think their Community Development Plan and their thing is the most important, so I am not sure that it is going to fix... in reality, that it is really going to fix the problem. CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Rice. MS. RICE: I had a couple of questions. Is repair a CIP? I thought that would be a different category. MS. SAKO: If it is a large repair, yes. You know if we had to reroof a building, or redo something, then frequently they do fall into our Capital Project Fund, yes. MS. RICE: And then the repair of the bridges which I understand is mostly federal money, right? MS. SAKO: A lot of it is. I can't say all of it is, but... MS. RICE: But that would also be a CIP? Page 89 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MS. SAKO: Yes, it falls in the Capital Project Fund. MS. RICE: Okay. Then if you have a lawsuit, that takes precedence over everything? MS. SAKO: Yes, like the ADA, consent decree that we are operating under... MS. RICE: Right, and the cesspools. MS. SAKO: And cesspools, federal mandates, or lawsuits, yeah. MS. RICE: Okay, Okay. Alright, that was... and then I had a couple of comments. I like this. It is very all encompassing, so there is really lots of flexibility. The last phrase "and other pertinent functional plans", so if you have a cesspool plan, then that would be on the priority list because it would be a functional plan right? So this gives you... I mean... and the other thing I like about it is by stating this in the Charter, it brings the community effort right up front and says that the County must pay attention to these plans which were developed by the people of the island. So it is... it gives them a feeling that they have a voice, a better voice, a bigger voice in the way that the money is spent. CHR. ADAMS: Any other discussion? If I may, I have a couple of concerns. One is this is the only place in the Charter where we refer to Community Development Plans. That is a Code based, that is based in the Code and so, I do understand the idea of, of, tying Capital Improvement Projects, and the Capital Improvement budget to the General Plan, I think that that is great. We already see that probably not as clearly, but it is in 315 as well. This to me seems exclusive in that the prioritization of the Capital Improvements shall be done with these criteria, not anything else, the way it is currently phrased. And so, I have a little bit of concern with that as well. Given that, unless there was a way to be more flexible I think in the phrasing, I would be concerned about this particular one, especially since we know that 315 already exists and there is still a requirement that the General Plan serves as the basis for our capital plans. Please... MR. YEE: I don't disagree with all of the conversation of discussion so far. I in the end, I think if we really want to make CIP well intentioned process, it really probably has to happen more within the Administration, within the Mayor, a really big shift in how we want to approach that, and that wouldn't necessarily be addressed at the Charter level necessarily. I think Ms. Galimba certainly was on the right track. Her instinct is right on because I do personally feel like we should be looking at CIP projects differently, but that is a huge lift. It is trying to align the Mayor, the Council, not to think in two year spurts, all the departments to really think six years out at a minimum, DEM (Department of Environmental Management) is the best at really providing a six-year plan. Not all departments are as forward thinking as they should be. Again, that tends to be a capacity issue within each department. So it is not a huge criticism. Page 90 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 And so, in the end it is still, no matter what you were going to pass today, it was still going to be on the Mayor, and future Mayors to really want to think about a process that helps the island really put our infrastructure and Capital Improvement Projects in the right place at the right time. CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Rice. MS. RICE: You say that it is up to the Mayor, but if we had it in the Charter, would he... wouldn't he be required to look at these plans before... when he stated his preferences? MR. YEE: I think without having a firm process which has a selection criteria, it is really up to I guess not the right word... manipulation by any people who make the decision, what is the priority. So it is not as if they are going to suggest things that aren't somewhere mentioned in the General Plan generally, so I think there is a lot of ability for the Mayor to make a decision on anything that is moving forth on a CIP point list. MS. RICE: Okay. CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Sako, do you have anything you would like to add? MS. SAKO: I was just going to add that you know, when it is like "shall be prioritized", and I get where the conversation is, but you know like right now after Hurricane Lane and roads need to be redone, you know that is really where the engineers are spending their time, even though that may not be one of the projects that was highlighted in a CDP or a General Plan you know, so it... I understand what you are saying, I am just not sure how we are going to carry life out with this particular amendment. CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Rice. MS. RICE: So if the last phrase there, "other pertinent functional plans", would not come underneath that? In other words you are obviously are going to do a plan to repair the roads, so wouldn't... and that is a functional plan. In my mind function means something that's working that has to be made to work. MS. SAKO: Maybe I am being too literal. I am just... I am not sure everything has a specific plan, but yes, we have project worksheets and different things with FEMA, and if the intention is that those would be interpreted as a plan, then yeah... CHR. ADAMS: Any other discussion? Yes, Commissioner Roehrig. Page 91 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MR. ROEHRIG: Where can we put the term emergency into this to make it ... MS. SAKO: I mean it is everything. It is the court orders, it's the emergencies, you know, it is a lot of things, and so I don't... I was sitting here trying to figure out yeah maybe what we wanted to say, but you know it is kind of... it is after those other operating needs or mandates and things like that. MR. ROEHRIG: So County emergency expenditures, and other, is that okay? MS. SAKO: Yeah, but like I said, I mean you know, there are the court orders and other things as well. MR. ROEHRIG: Those... MS. SAKO: But those are going to happen no matter what... MR. ROEHRIG: They come in and they take priority and that's that, so... can you live with that? MS. GALIMBA: Oh yeah, I can. I think we also have... it says "shall be", but it also says "based on criteria", so there's... that does give some wiggle room or you know, flexibility, and we could perhaps increase that flexibility. MR. ROEHRIG: I will make a motion that we add the term "emergency expenditures" and put it in after Community Development Plan, is that okay? CHR. ADAMS: So what you are doing, Commissioner Roehrig, is that you are moving an amendment that adds after Community Development Plans, other emergency... MR. ROEHRIG: Not other... (inaudible) CHR. ADAMS: Emergency expenditures, so that the read on this would be "Capital Improvements shall be prioritized based on criteria aligned with the General Plan, Community Development Plans, emergency measures, and other pertinent functional plans." Is that what you are saying? MR. ROEHRIG: Okay. CHR. ADAMS: Is that what you are saying? MR. ROEHRIG: I said emergency expenditures. CHR. ADAMS: Emergency expenditures. "Community Development Plans, emergency expenditures, and other pertinent functional plans." Page 92 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MR. ROEHRIG: Yeah. CHR. ADAMS: Okay. Is there a second to that amendment? Alright. Seconded by Commissioner Galimba. Any discussion on that? Commissioner Zelko-Schlueter. MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Thank you. I just think that once you start adding in everything it is just, this will not... it is similar to the last discussion we had about putting preferential things... I think it is just not clear enough so you are going to run into the same problems that we already have. I just don't think it will really in all practicality actually take care of all of those things. Because it sounds like the departments already do prioritize looking at the General Plan, and Community Development Plans, and then once you start adding in all of these other exceptions, I just think you are kind of back to the same place. CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Galimba. MS. GALIMBA: I think the point, the major point of this is just to start having the practice and habit of a more explicit discussion of the reasons for making a Capital Improvement Project, and I am sure they happen, but they don't really get put down on paper, and I think that kind of discipline is... I mean I think it is good for anybody, any business to really go through the process of saying okay we are doing this for this reason, and just having it... having it down. And it doesn't mean that plans don't change, because we all do that. We make plans but then something comes up and we have to do something else. So that is the point of this proposal. CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Roehrig: MR. ROEHRIG: This is the Finance Director's suggestion, and she certainly knows more than we do. CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Todd. MS. TODD: My recollection of the forms that the departments have to fill out, and which end up being submitted as part of the Capital Budget to the County Council and which is open to the public to look, we have to give justification, and some of the justification included is whether... cause we solicited from the Community Development Plan Acting Committees, projects, and then we would put down that it is in compliance with the Community Development Plan, or we would put down if it was in compliance with the ADA court order, or if it was in compliance with an EPA requirement, and that is already on the forms where we have to list why the project is being submitted, and that is part of the public document. Am I... correct that that is still what you are doing now? Page 93 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MR. YEE: That is correct. I think the only change I made... I might have added some more criteria, and I would have weighted certain things you know, more than other categories, but in general, from your time till now, I haven't necessarily reduced the number of criteria, just added to it and the point system to which we weight certain items. CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Galimba. MS. GALIMBA: Oh sorry. CHR. ADAMS: Okay. Any other discussion? Commissioner Rice. MS. RICE: I think the purpose of this in my mind is to improve our long-term thinking and planning because by having to refer to these plans, which the community has spent a lot of time developing, they usually are forward looking plans that extend the amount of time that these improvements would be utilized for. And I think rather than focus on the short-term, which is absolutely necessary and which the Director of Finance has explained to us, we do need to lift our sights and think also about the long-term because in the long -run, it is the long- term that is going to make everything function better and our island be a more pleasant place to live in. My philosophy. MR. YEE: Totally agree. You should be a planner. I... you know you have the Planning Director in front of you, and so of course I am going to sit there and say "plans, plans, plans", and let's do more planning, but at some point it has to actually come to fruition with some real projects that make sense for us. I will add that as much as I want to believe that the General Plan sits on every Director and Deputy's desk and they refer to it constantly in terms of planning, it probably sits there more as a paper weight. And you know is planning more special than another? I don't want to say it is more special, but we have a General Plan that is made to look out 20-40 years and if it does not become a regular tool that we talk about continuously, then it does just sit on a shelf, so that is my two -cents on that. CHR. ADAMS: Any other discussion on the amendment? MR. HENRICKS: Mr. Chair if you could help me out, I was not here. Could you please read the amendment to me and let me know who made the motion and second for the record, thank you. CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Roehrig made the amendment and the second came from Commissioner Galimba. And the amendment was to add the phrase "emergency expenditures" after Community Development Plans. So it would be "Community Development Plans, emergency expenditures, and other pertinent functional plans." That is the amendment. Clear? MR. HENRICKS: Crystal. Page 94 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 Vote on Motion To Amend CA -29 (Approved): CHR. ADAMS: Any other discussion? Let's vote on the amendment as we have it. All in favor of the amendment which includes the phrase emergency expenditures, please signify by saying "aye" (aye), opposed, "naye". It appears that the "ayes" have it. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight..., eight to one. So the amendment passes with Commissioners Bergin and Hopkins excused. We come back to the... MR. HENRICKS: The vote against was yourself? CHR. ADAMS: Correct. MR. HENRICKS: Thank you. MS. TODD: No, there was one more "no". CHR. ADAMS: Oh, I didn't hear it. I apologize. So seven to two, not eight, one. MR. HENRICKS: Thank you. The motion to amend CA -29 was carried by the following voice vote: Ayes: Commissioners Galimba, Hamano, Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, Springer, and Todd, — 7 Noes: Commissioners Zelko-Schlueter and Chair Adams — 2 Absent: Commissioners Bergin and Hopkins — 2 Excused: None. CHR. ADAMS: With Commission Zelko-Schlueter also naye. Then, so we come back to the motion to approve CA -29 on Initial Approval. Any other discussion on that? Hearing none, all in favor of approving Charter Amendment 29 on Initial Approval, please signify by saying "aye" (aye), opposed, (no). No. Let's go voice vote. I mean let's go roll call please. MR. HENRICKS: Approving CA -29 as amended, on Initial Approval, Mr. Bergin is absent, Ms. Galimba (aye), Mr. Hamano (no), Mr. Hopkins is absent, Ms. Leithead-Todd (no), Ms. Rice (aye), Mr. Roehrig (aye), Ms. Saquing (aye), Ms. Springer (aye), Ms. Zelko-Schlueter (no), Chair Adams (no). Chair Adams you have one, two, three... five votes in favor. Page 95 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 RECESS: RECONVENE: CHR. ADAMS: The motion does not pass. MR. HENRICKS: According to our rules it does. Initial Approval does not require... CHR. ADAMS: So it is five, four? MR. HENRICKS: It is five, four and that is a bare majority and it only requires five votes on Initial Approval. I can double check, but I recall reading that. CHR. ADAMS: So the reason this is important is because this is a substantive vote... MR. HENRICKS: Correct. CHR. ADAMS: Let's take a quick recess to verify that. Let's take a quick recess to verify that. At 2:41 p.m., the Chair called for a recess. The meeting reconvened at 2:41 p.m. CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. Alright, so the vote was five, four. MR. HENRICKS: Right. CHR. ADAMS: Which means that the motion passes on Initial Approval. MR. HENRICKS: Correct. So our rules read "procedural matters, requests for information, and internal Commission matters, require the approval of majority of vote of those present at any meeting. Voting on the initial review of proposed Charter amendments for further consideration shall be considered a procedural matter under this rule." CHR. ADAMS: Okay. There we go. Alright, so motion passes on Initial Approval. Alright, I am aware that we are having both Commissioner Saquing and Commissioner Galimba are having to be excused at this point. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven... we still have a quorum. Page 96 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 Vote on Motion The motion to pass CA -29, as amended, on initial approval was carried by the To Approve CA -29, following roll call vote: As amended (Approved): Ayes: Commissioners Galimba, Rice, Roehrig, Saquing, and Springer — 5 Noes: Commissioners Hamano, Todd, Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams — 4 Absent: Commissioners Bergin and Hopkins - 2 Excused: None. MR. ROEHRIG: Let's continue this. CHR. ADAMS: We are going to move on. Yeah, we don't have that much more. MR. ROEHRIG: Let's continue the meeting to another time. CHR. ADAMS: Let's just keep going. MR. ROEHRIG: We are missing how many people? CHR. ADAMS: We are missing four people. We have got seven here. MR. ROEHRIG: Four out of eleven you are missing? CHR. ADAMS: Correct. MR. ROEHRIG: Anyone else want to move the meeting? Am I out of line? CHR. ADAMS: You can make that a motion. MR. ROEHRIG: I am just saying, I don't want to waste my time, your folk's time. Anyone else? CHR. ADAMS: Let's roll. Okay. MR. HENRICKS: Thank you. CHR. ADAMS: Let's move back to Item No. 9, which is Communication No. 44.11, Transmitting Charter Amendment 27, Draft 2, for First Reading. This is the Proposal to Amend Section 10-15 to add language to place an emphasis on the acquisition of easements. Is there a motion to pass CA -27, Draft 2, for First Reading? MR. ROEHRIG: I make that motion. Page 97 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 CHR. ADAMS: Is there a second? I'll second for the purposes of this discussion. Mr. Roehrig. MR. ROEHRIG: Well, thank you... CHR. ADAMS: Could you turn on your mic please? Thank you. MR. ROEHRIG: Sorry. It is getting on in the day... yeah, some people have talked about thinking that language is somehow mandatory. When we first voted on this the language, I will read it "whenever practicable, the County shall seek to acquire an easement as preferred method to accomplish the objectives in subsection (c)(1)." Easements are a part of the PONC law and the language was by Jon and Ray when the issue came up, I asked them what is... what they thought was good language and that is their language, so... the practicable, etc. So, the main reason behind this is easements... buying an easement as I said already, compared to buying the fee... an easement can just be a fraction of the cost of the fee, maybe one percent, maybe less. So you are talking about 10 feet versus hundreds of acres or whatever, so a lot more inexpensive. Your dollar would go so much further. If the piece of property, the whole thing is of great value, fine, but from what I have seen, a lot of the properties, you know, you are talking about the shoreline access which is the favorite part of the piece of property and you can get that with an easement. And if it is non-exclusive easement, even cheaper, and whether or not an easement is going to be blocked, no matter what, something can be blocked, but that is exceptional. That doesn't happen. All you do is call the cops on the place if that happens. Anyway, this will make the PONC money go a lot further. Now, the easements have been out there, but as far as my knowledge, no one has purchased an easement yet... PONC, hasn't happened. Thank you. CHR. ADAMS: Any other discussion on this? Commissioner Rice. MS. RICE: I am concerned by the Lea Hong's interpretation of the "shall" and "practicable" which she outlines in her testimony. Which says that there is... that they have to look at... that the County shall seek to acquire an easement as a preferred method. In other words it is pretty much mandating according to her interpretation, and shall is a mandate as used in this case, to acquire the easement, whereas there may be federal money available and according to the testimony we heard today, the federal monies often are not available for easements and they want fee simple land. So, I see a problem with this on several fronts. One is the mandate by using the word "shall", the other is the lack of flexibility and ability to acquire matching funds. So... and, we already have this in CA -9, so... I think it is CA -9, so, it is already covered. That easement is one of the... is a... certainly something that is looked at. And in some cases that is all a landowner is willing Page 98 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 to give us. So I just... I think it is somewhat redundant and it has some legal problems that could cause us difficulty down the road. CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Hamano. MR. HAMANO: Yes, thank you. Yeah, I too sort of, I don't like the language used in here. Especially if Jon drafted this. I'm just kidding. I am just kidding. You know I... it is too discretionary. It doesn't... I don't see how it adds anything. It can be used in ways not in line with the purpose of the PONC fund and I believe the existing provisions already sort of try to cover this, so I am going to vote against this. CHR. ADAMS: Any other discussion? Commissioner Roehrig. MR. ROEHRIG: Thank you. So I hear two Commissioners. One says how it mandates it, and then Mr. Hamano says it is too discretionary, at the same time... so it says "when practicable", so if it is not practicable and it doesn't work because someone wants the fee or something, well then it is not practicable, but if the issue about there being you know, matching monies or something, you know, I am not going to rely on someone walking in front of us and telling us. The gentleman here can go check it out if they want to and see if that is supported in fact. Then maybe it is relevant if it is supported in fact, but I am not going to accept people that you know, their so-called experience because I don't have that experience. Thank you. CHR. ADAMS: Any other discussion? I would just make the brief comment that I think that the purpose of this or at least the intent of this is to draw attention to exactly what Commissioner is talking about, which is trying to make the money that is available for preservation acquisition go as far as possible and the idea that... I think... I get what Commissioner Hamano is saying, practicable can be a lot of different things. I get that. And so, I would tend to be on the side that says "hey, this preference language is exactly that. It is a preference language even though it talks about shall seek to acquire, it is still a preference language that can be used or not used depending on the situations." So, if there is a matching fee situation, by all means that is going to make it not practicable for example, so that would be my view on this. Okay. Seeing no other discussion, the motion on the floor is to pass CA -27, Draft 2 for First Reading. All in favor of the motion, please signify by saying "aye" (aye), all opposed, say "naye" (naye). Let's go with... we have got seven... yeah, let's go with a roll call vote please. MR. HENRICKS: Okay, let's see who is left. Commissioner Hamano (naye), okay, Commissioner Leithead-Todd (inaudible), Commissioner Rice (no), Page 99 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 Commissioner Roehrig (aye), Commissioner Saqui... Commissioner Springer (nage), Commissioner Zelko-Schlueter (no), Chair Adams (aye). You have two votes in favor Chair Adams. CHR. ADAMS: Roger. Okay. The motion does not pass. Vote on Motion The motion to pass CA -27, Draft 2, failed by the following roll call vote: To Approve CA -27 (Failed): Ayes: Commissioners Roehrig and Chair Adams— 2 Noes: Commissioners Hamano, Rice, Springer, Todd, and Zelko-Schlueter, — 5 Absent: Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Hopkins, and Saquing — 4 Excused: None. CHR. ADAMS: Moving on to Item No. 10, Transmitting Communication No. 45, which Transmits Charter Amendment No. 28 for Initial Approval, this Proposal amends Section 13-4 to remove language providing that memberships of Boards and Commissions may not contain more than a bare majority of persons belonging to the same political party. Is there a motion to pass CA -28 for Initial Approval? Alright, it has been moved by Commissioner Hamanao and seconded by Commissioner Todd. Is there any discussion? MR. HAMANO: Yeah. CHR. ADAMS: Commissioner Hamano. MR. HAMANO: On behalf of Commissioner Galimba, I think she made these... this amendment to conform with what we have today, that you know, political parties are not part of the agenda today, so that is why she made this amendment. CHR. ADAMS: Is there any other discussion? All in favor of passing CA -28 for Initial Approval, please signify by saying "aye" (aye), any opposed? Motion passes unanimously with Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Saquing, and Hopkins excused. Page 100 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 Vote on Motion The motion to pass CA -28 on initial approval was carried by the following To Approve CA -28 voice vote: (Approved): Ayes: Commissioners Hamano, Rice, Roehrig, Springer, Todd, Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams -7 Noes: None. Absent: Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Hopkins, and Saquing — 4 Excused: None . CHR. ADAMS: Alright, Item No. 12, under New Business is Communication No. 48, transmitting Charter Amendment 30 for Initial Approval. This Proposal amends Section 14-5, which adds the language providing that the Board of Ethics may impose civil fines for violation to the Code of Ethics, as prescribed by ordinance of the Council, that the Board may transmit formal opinions regarding potential violations to the appropriate appointing authority, and clarifying that the Board's rules of procedure shall have the force and effect of law. At this time I will turn over Chair to the Vice -Chair. Relinquish Chair: At this time, Chair Adams relinquished the chair to Vice Chair Zelko-Schlueter. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: I would entertain a motion to approve transmitting CA -30 for Initial Approval. CHR. ADAMS: I move that we pass CA -30 for Initial Approval. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Okay, so Commissioner Adams has moved. Commissioner Rice seconded. Commissioner Adams. CHR. ADAMS: Where am I... we did receive... all of have seen the Communication that came from the Board of Ethics. I believe it was a Communication that was in last meeting's agenda. The Items that are listed in this particular proposal take most of it... take most of the items here from that, but not, I don't think I have done everything that was in there, so let me just take this bit by bit. In Section (a), the idea is that we maintain the idea of staggered terms for the Board measures.. Board members, so that is what this essentially says. The phrase that currently exists which is "upon the initial appointment of members Page 101 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 pursuant to this chapter, one shall be appointed for a term of one year... one for a term of two years, etc." That is transitional, and so that is why that comes out. And then the "adopting its rules of procedures, having the force and effect of law, shall be necessary to provide for the enforcement of the Code of Ethics" is a clarifying... in my mind, is a clarifying phrase. And so that's why that is included. Item B (3), where the addition of the phrase "or formal" allows for essentially all opinions being able to be sent along, because currently that doesn't exist in the current reading. MS. RICE: Say that again. I am sorry. CHR. ADAMS: So that's okay, B (3), so you note that the underlined phrase is "or formal" right? So what that means is that you have advisory opinions, you also have formal and informal opinions. The informal opinions are often times considered advisory opinions according to rules that the Board operates by. So the addition of "or formal opinions" here, is just adding that in the Charter. The Board has the ability to receive an initiate complaints of violations of the Code of Ethics and transmit such complaints to the Council along with their own opinions, which would include their formal opinions. Alright. And then B (5), just is associated with... it just goes... identifies the fact that publishing advisory opinions is associated with Item B (2), so that is what that is associated with. And then finally in C, the Board may impose civil fines for the violations of the Code of Ethics as prescribed by ordinance. That doesn't currently exist as an enumerated or explicit authority within the current Charter. There is an ordinance right now that is awaiting the rules of practice and procedure to be approved by the Board of Ethics, and then subsequently approved by the Board... by the Mayor, that would then trigger this particular authority, but it doesn't currently exist in the Charter and so that, I think the idea from the Board of Ethics is, and I agree with this, is that it makes it explicit. So that is my comment. Does the... okay. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Rice. MS. RICE: I think I get that what we are doing here is that we are putting some teeth in the Ethics Board. Is that correct? CHR. ADAMS: That is a good way to phrase it. MS. RICE: Okay. Got it. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Any further discussion? Okay. Without objection, we will take a voice vote on the motion transmitting CA -30 for Initial Approval. All those in favor please signify by saying "aye" (aye), anyone Page 102 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 opposed? Okay. Motion passes unanimously with Commissioners Bergin, Hopkins, Saquing, Galimba excused. Vote on Motion The motion to pass CA -30 on initial approval was carried by the following To Approve CA -30 voice vote: (Approved): Ayes: Commissioners Hamano, Rice, Roehrig, Springer, Todd, Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams -7 Noes: None. Absent: Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Hopkins, and Saquing — 4 Excused: None . ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Moving on. Do you want me to do the next? Okay. Moving on to Communication No. 49, Transmitting CA -31 for Initial Approval, this is a Proposal to amend Section 13-4, Boards and Commissions by revising provisions for the nomination and confirmation of members to Boards and Commissions that are specifically established by the Hawai`i County Charter. I would entertain a motion. CHR. ADAMS: I move that we pass Charter Amendment 31 for Initial Approval. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Do I have a second? Okay, Commissioner Rice seconds. Okay, Chair Adams. CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. This, if you take a look at Section 13-4, this is an addition... this is a large couple of paragraph addition to subsection, or Section B which currently just talks about the members being appointed by the Mayor and confirmed by the Council, and then being able to be removed by, upon recommendation by the Mayor and approval of the Council. This is essentially a pull with a couple of small changes to the County of Maui's provisions and it allows for... the purpose of this essentially is to make sure that our Boards and Commissions are filled essentially and so, I should tell you that I initially came in with something smaller, but it doesn't look like we can really do anything smaller. That you have to kind of, you have to roll through one when there is an expiration of a term, which is essentially Section one, you have a vacancy that is due to the expiration of a term, and then you have the variety of things that can happen as a result of that, and then you have this sub paragraph two which is a vacancy that is due to death, resignation, or removal, and then how you handle that between the Mayor and the Council. Page 103 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 What this essentially does, this brings the Council into the... into the party if you will in identifying folks when the Mayor doesn't do so for some particular reason within a period of time. So, this is... this is designed to be a little bit more of a constraint on the Mayor's authority because of the idea that we have all of these Boards and Commissions as we have heard in the past, we are continually trying to fill those, and so this is both an attempt to try and help as well as I am sure from the Mayor's office, not help. So it is procedural. It is more procedural than I would like to see in the Charter but there you go. Boy that was really great. That was really advocating for it, I know. I do... I think that this is important because I think that we need to make sure that we fill, we have, I have been on Boards where quorums were a problem and so, the idea is that if we are going to have a Board or we are going to have a Commission, it is important enough to have it, then we need to fill them. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Roehrig. MR. ROEHRIG: Thank you. I was thinking of this last meeting or something, what is her name? Is it Rose Bautista? Is that her name? MS. TODD: It is. MR. HENRICKS: That's Rose. MR. ROEHRIG: There she is, okay. Excuse me. Why don't you come forward here if you would? CHR. ADAMS: Without objection... MR. ROEHRIG: I talked to her for a while and you know, I think she has got some opinions here and from talking to her, you know, the Mayor does go out to the Council now anyway, and the issue is from talking to her is not... is that trying to find bodies... that is the issue. So maybe go ahead and tell us your experience... or... if you would. (Note: At this time Rose Bautista, Executive Assistant to Mayor Kim came forward to address the members of the Commission.) MS. BAUTISTA: Yeah, thank you. Well first of all, it is a balancing act. CHR. ADAMS: So, this is Rose Bautista and you are...Executive... MS. BAUTISTA: I am sorry. Rose Bautista, Executive Assistant to Mayor Kim and I oversee the Boards and Commissions. Initially when I came in there were a lot of vacancies and I mean it was a challenge. But we have managed to get the Page 104 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 rhythm and also try to... we, we do seek out referrals or recommendations from the Council. We are already doing that. As a matter of fact a lot of the ones that we nominate comes from the recommendations from the Council members. So we are reaching out and we are really... we really look at qualified and a diverse group to nominate and sometimes that can be a challenge. Because we have applicants but they... sometimes the vacancies are not there for them, sometimes I know the Mayor has emphasized to me "Make sure there is equity, gender equity", there could be all men in one Board, and he says "well, hold off on some of them and look for women.", so there is a lot of things that come into consideration, but it... we have been... the Administration has been in effect for a little over two years now and we actually have managed to fill many of the Boards and Commissions. As it stands now, the ones that are established by the Charter, there are about 16 of them, there is a total of 41 Boards and Commissions, Advisory Commissions and everything, but there are 16 that are established by the Charter. Of that 16, we actually only have four that have vacancies. Of those four vacancies, one they... the vacancy is one or two positions, so all the ones that are Charter... that... establish... I am sorry. There is one that is inactive, which is the County Redistricting Commission and that comes every so often. So the ones that are... the Boards and Commissions established by the Charter for the most part are full, so we have done the best as we can to sit... to sit those Boards and Commissions. So, you know, I constantly seek out recommendations from... we do press releases that go out, we have spoken to different community events that they have, we... we do a lot of solicitations, so I don't know what more we can do you know, to get this, to get more Boards and Commissions, but it is... you can see that there are more, I believe, like qualified people who really, really want to serve, and that is what we are looking for. And we are doing every effort to, that we can, to make sure that is what continues to be done. MR. ROEHRIG: Have you read what he has proposed? MS. BAUTISTA: On the... yes. On the... MR. ROEHRIG: You did read it. MS. BAUTISTA: On the Board of Ethics... or, oh, yes. MR. ROEHRIG: What is your feeling on that or what would you like to see, or whatever? Should there be any changes? MS. BAUTISTA: Well, I think the way that I am trying to, we are trying to handle it now, is to make sure that there... the Boards are filled and there is quorum and so we prioritize this to who should... we put more effort in vetting or recruiting this will, if you put the time limit on our office, it will basically just, yeah, you know... I... I am not sure... I think it will just put more work on us to make sure we have to fill it within 45 days and we have so many days to respond Page 105 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 when you know, someone whatever, resign... when there is a vacancy or when someone resigns or whatever way the vacancy occurs, so I would think in my opinion based upon what I am doing now. It would just be an even harder balancing act because you are now constrained to certain time periods and I think we are doing as best as we can to do that, and like I said, most of the Boards and Commissions are now filled. MR. ROEHRIG: You think this will help, or hinder, or don't know. MS. BAUTISTA: You know if it is not break, why... I don't know, we are, we... but you know it could change with Administrations that is the thing too so... I know as far as we are concerned in this Administration, we are doing everything that we can and we are, I believe, fulfilling a lot of the vacancies as best as we can. MR. ROEHRIG: Thank you. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Todd. MS. TODD: Rose, when somebody applies for a Board and Commission and you folks are thinking about nominating them, do you then send the name to the Police Department to do a background check? MS. BAUTISTA: I believe that's the first thing that we do. MS. TODD: And how long does that process usually take? MS. BAUTISTA: It can take a few... a week or a few weeks, or we can expedite it if we really need to. MS. TODD: Okay. To your knowledge has that ever been an issue? Have you sent a name and then the report comes back saying like... let's say you want to put somebody on Liquor Commission and it comes back and says oh, they had a DUI (Driving Under the Influence). MS. BAUTISTA: Yes. MS. TODD: You know, so has that kind of situation occurred? MS. BAUTISTA: Yes. Exactly. And those things occur as well. We have had some where there are pending cases before the Court, so we... the Mayor, we are not going to put someone on a Board... MS. TODD: Okay, and a Council member might not know that when they put a name up right? Page 106 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MS. BAUTISTA: Exactly. Yes. We don't share that. MS. TODD: Cause I remember and I think... I can't, you know, I guess I am getting old and my memory is getting foggy, but I can remember situations in which in one County or another, people got nominated and then subsequently you know, you find out that they have got something that you know, might be not the best background, whether, you know like if they previously had a liquor license that got suspended and yet they want to serve on the Liquor Commission, so they may have an axe to grind. That kind of thing sometimes comes out in the vetting process. MS. BAUTISTA: Right. MS. TODD: And it saves the embarrassment for the individual. It also saves the Council the embarrassment of perhaps approving, and the Mayor approving somebody that subsequently someone raises an objection to and then you have got to disqualify them. But the other Commission I was thinking about, somebody mentioned it in testimony, was the Arborist Advisory Committee. Hasn't the problem been that there is a requirement that you have to have a certified... I can't remember if it is a landscape architect or whether it is an arborist... MS. BAUTISTA: Or an arborist, right. MS. TODD: And that the difficulty has been getting somebody with that certification and without that person you really can't have the Committee. MS. BAUTISTA: Exactly. Some Boards and Commissions specifically mentions certain expertise and you know, the Arborist Committee has been really tough. It has been in an inactive for like eight years, and the whole eight years prior to our Administration. It as inactive. We finally got it activated and then we had it seated fully, and then another challenge was having the department staff it. At the moment... finally we get it and they say "we can't staff it. We don't have the staffing to do it." So, we had to hold off for a while again, and then... until we had calls from the public saying "what's happening, what's happening", and wanting an update, to the point where, because the particular department assigned to it couldn't provide that staffing, our office, the Mayor's office actually took it upon ourselves to staff it so we can continue or have the meeting. The Board convene and... MS. TODD: Yeah, I have always wondered why it was the Planning Department and not Parks and Rec, but I guess Parks and Rec has less staff that could... because you have got to take... part of the staffing is you have to be able to take minutes, do agendas, publish hearing notices and stuff, and my recollection is that it was at Planning Department and the problem is, Planning has something like 13 different Boards and Commissions. Page 107 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MS. BAUTISTA: Different Boards and Commissions. Exactly. MS. TODD: That their staff has to support on a monthly basis. So... and in addition, they have regular paper work... MS. BAUTISTA: Exactly. MS. TODD: That they have to review and process otherwise in some cases it is automatic denials of applications if you don't process the paperwork and you don't want to be in that position of having taken away somebody's you know, potential development rights to do a subdivision or get something approved because your staff time got funneled away to Committees and meetings instead of doing the... some of the paperwork which is in the Subdivision Code in terms of whether you get an automatic approval or automatic denial, or including some of the more pressing ones which are when you have got appeals to Board of Appeals. Because even though the appeals can come from Public Works, it is still the Planning Department that has to provide the staffing. MS. BAUTISTA: Yeah. Yeah. MS. TODD: Okay. MS. BAUTISTA: And we have a few of those right now where they... I am ready to seat them and you know, we are having challenges with the staffing. MS. TODD: Okay. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Rice. MS. RICE: I like this. Given that it sounds like the Mayor and you all have started to address some of the problems with the lack of personnel on the Commissions, I think for the long-term because as you have stated yourself, Administrations change and this is, this sets it up specifically for a long-term basis irregardless of who the Mayor is. So I think it makes sense. I like the involvement of the Council on a more formal basis, certainly they should be involved I think, because they of all people would know the nominees that would be good on various Boards coming from their districts. One thing I wasn't sure... in the last sentence of number one, it says "If the Mayor fails to submit the name of a nominee within the time provided for herein, the Council may within 60 days nominate..." why would that not be "shall" because then all of a sudden you are back to where you started from with nobody on the Board. Whereas if it says "shall" they have to nominate. MR. HENRICKS: Can I take a stab at that? Page 108 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MS. RICE: And that also is true in... MR. HENRICKS: Because if you couldn't do it within the time frame, what would that mean? And furthermore, why can't there be vacancies in Boards and Commissions? There is no requirement that they be full. It is obviously ideal. But I think there are always going to be times when there are vacancies on Boards and Commissions. MS. RICE: Well, but if they don't have a quorum, then they don't... MR. HENRICKS: But this isn't talking... MS. RICE: But if they don't have a quorum, they don't function. MR. HENRICKS: But this isn't specific to quorums. This is any vacancy. If you have an eight member Board, one vacancy, this applies. Not when there is three vacancies. It doesn't kick in then. It is not an emergency procedure to make sure that there are quorums, this is a catchall. MS. RICE: What do you mean a catchall? MR. HENRICKS: Meaning that it is not... this isn't... this may have the impact of helping to ensure that there are quorums, but this isn't about quorums. This is any vacancy, so again, if you have a nine member Board, you have eight members on it, and there is one vacancy, this applies. So again, I think it says "may" because it doesn't place the prerogative or the directive on the Council to fill that vacancy whether it is one, two, or three on any Board. It gives the Council that opportunity to do so and that is why the word "may" is likely used in that instance. MS. RICE: So why do you give them that opportunity? MR. HENRICKS: It is not my language. I am just trying to explain why, and again, this is probably taken from another County with their experiences and I don't know if it works there or not... MS. RICE: Oh, I see. Okay. MR. HENRICKS: And I do have some... I would like to if possible kind of take off my Analyst hat and put on my County Clerk hat at some point if that is okay with the group. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Yes, that is fine. CHR. ADAMS: May I just follow-up though on the conversation briefly. Part of this goes... we have heard others talk about let's give the Council more of this Page 109 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 authority as opposed to the Mayor and have the Mayor just approve and that, from my vantage point that turns the Executive and the Legislative upside down right, the Mayor has the responsibility to do the appointing, the Council has the responsibility to do the confirming. This "may" at the end is indeed... it is a catchall. In other words, if we have gone through all of this and we haven't yet had the opportunity, in other words the Mayor didn't actually submit the name within the time, then the Council has the opportunity to fill it if there's... if the Council deems that that is important to do. MS. RICE: Okay. I've got it. CHR. ADAMS: The rest of this has to do with the Council confirming of appointments so... MS. RICE: Right. Okay. CHR. ADAMS: That is kind of why that is there. MS. RICE: Okay. I got it. Thank you. CHR. ADAMS: Thank you. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Rice, I also think you know, you could have a situation where the Mayor is in talks with the Council saying you know "we do have someone, we are looking at a few people, we need some extra time." I think it does provide that flexibility. Mr. Henricks. MR. ROEHRIG: Oh you asked first, go ahead. MR. HENRICKS: Okay. From a perspective of administrating and implementing this from the Council's side, to Ms. Leithead-Todd's point, Ms. Bautista, and she has staff that... it is not all that they do, but this is a large responsibility, they put a lot of effort and expertise and there are procedures into it to making sure that when somebody is put before the Council, it is an appropriate person, not just appropriate for the field and, but there is checks and there is vetting. If we do this, then now we basically saying we have to have 100 percent more of the expertise we currently have, because we wouldn't be relying on... we would have to have that expertise in house to be able to vet. And I am... and based on this language, I don't understand who on the Council would pick the person that would go before the entire Council. It is unclear and I don't think it can be made clear, because not all Boards and Commissions are district residency requirements. Some have seven members, some have five, so who on the Council gets to select? What if we end up in a situation where three Council members pick people and then we have a competitive process where they all become before Page 110 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 the Council to be confirmed by the Council. I have concerns about that and what that might do to this office you know, from a political standpoint and from a standpoint of working together, and I also have concerns about applicants coming up and essentially where one will be selected and two wouldn't. Will that happen? I don't know, but it seems possible by this language because it is not clear how the Council would select a person. We have a great Council right now that works together and I don't see this Council doing that, but down the road, and I have been on Councils, or not on Councils, but worked for Councils where I could foresee there being an argument as to who on the Council gets to pick the person that the whole Council would then go to confirm. Because the point to that is the Council is a body. It makes sense for the Council to confirm nominations that were a singular person selects them. There is... that is kind of the art of that process, so I have concerns about what that would mean to our office and what we would be required to do to make sure that the process was fair, it was fair to individuals that were brought forward, and we were making sure that people that were brought forward were appropriate in the sense that they are good candidates, that they have been properly vetted, it is another responsibility. Would it happen a lot? I don't know if it would happen a lot. If it doesn't happen a lot, then do we have the practice we need to do it? I am fully confident that as of now, and in previous Administrations, based upon my four years as Deputy and my relatively recent term as Clerk, that the Mayor's office has always had the staff and the expertise to perform these roles, and I would point out that on every agenda, there are nominees for confirmation to Boards and Commissions and even beyond those that are in the Charter for our Planning Commit... or ah, our Community Development Plan, Action Committees, and others. Even though this would only be on the Charter, but again, I understand this isn't about this Administration, it is looking forward, but I just wanted to put that on the record. I know that largely this idea came forward about a concern about Boards and Commissions not being fully equipped, but not from what I have seen I have been privy to how this... how they operate, and they do a heck of a job making sure that... and in fact I can point out that the Council on several occasions in this last term and before, have complimented on the record, the Mayor's Administration for finding excellent applicants. And I think it is because they are charged with doing it and it is a responsibility that they have and I don't know how that would work if the Council was made in charge of that. That is... those are some of my concerns about this. And I also think too that as Chair Adams himself had pointed out, that this is much more procedurally complex, and I worry about that. I worry about us getting it right, and I also worry that when things are procedurally complex and not simple, that there is room for impropriety, there is room for politics, there is room for maneuvering, and that would be a concern that I would have too. You know, Ms. Bautista said "if it aint broke, don't fix it." I would... that's a phrase we use a lot, but I would say this is beyond "not broke" in my opinion, it is a good system that has served the County well. Is it dependent upon having a Page 111 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 Mayor that cares and staff that follows through? Of course it is. But so is everything in the Charter essentially. Again, that was a little bit extra, but I thought it was important to provide my perspective. You know, I deal with these things on a daily basis, and I just wanted to make sure that the Mayor's office got credit for the work that it does to provide quality applicants for these Boards and Commissions. I think we could put a mirror up right now and I think that would tell a great story about how hard the Mayor's office works to fill Boards and Commissions. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Commissioner Roehrig. MR. ROEHRIG: Thank you. When I first thought about this or was informed about all of these vacancies, I contacted Jon but what ended up... Dennis Kauka, Jr. went ahead and I apologize, he made a chart for me of all the Commissions and the vacancies etc. etc., I forgot to bring it. I apologize. And I talked to Ms. Bautista here and she informed me what is going on, and as a result of all of that, I said this isn't necessary. Leave it alone. And so, that was the end of it as far as I was concerned. Thank you. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Any further discussion? Commissioner Rice. MS. RICE: I am not sure what I would want to do here. I am wondering if we could vote to continue this and in the meantime do some more homework. It is just a suggestion. I don't... I don't, I don't know whether to vote yea or nay because I felt there was a problem, but then hearing today's testimony, maybe there isn't, so I honestly don't know. MR. HENRICKS: We are up against the wall when it comes to First Reading, Second Reading, anything that is not decided on today on Initial Approval, we won't have time to keep moving forward towards the finish line. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: Thank you Mr. Henricks. Any further discussion on this, or any other clarification, Commissioner Rice that we could provide? MS. RICE: Well, I just feel that perhaps we could do this in a simpler way, but we are up against a time crunch. It seems to me as I say, it seems to be working okay now. But then we heard public hearing testimony that disputed that, so as I say, I, I, really, I need somebody to... maybe I just need to make up my mind one way or the other. Sorry. Page 112 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: That's okay. Any other discussion? Okay, I think on this one we will take a roll call vote. All those in favor of passing CA -31 on Initial Approval. MR. HENRICKS: Mr. Hamano (naye), Ms. Leithead-Todd (naye), Mr. Roehrig (naye), Ms. Springer (naye), Chair Adams (aye), Acting Chair, Zelko-Schlueter (naye), Acting Chair, Zelko-Schlueter, you have one vote in favor. MS. TODD: Commissioner Rice. MR. HENRICKS: Oh, I am sorry, I am trying to go through this without calling the people that are absent. Commissioner Rice, how would you like to vote? (aye). Thank you. Two votes in favor. And that does add up to 11 as opposed to 10. ACTING CHAIR, ZELKO-SCHLUETER: So the motion doesn't pass. Vote on Motion The motion to pass CA -31 failed by the following roll call vote: To Approve CA -31 (Failed): Ayes: Commissioners Rice and Chair Adams — 2 Noes: Commissioners Hamano, Roehrig, Springer, Todd, and Zelko-Schlueter — 5 Absent: Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Hopkins, and Saquing — 4 Excused: None . CHR. ADAMS: Reclaiming my authority as Chair. Relinquish Chair: At this time, Acting Chair Zelko-Schlueter relinquished the chair back to Chair Adams. CHR. ADAMS: Moving into Reports, we have none. At this time we have a Referral for Executive Session. I would entertain a motion to move into Executive Session where we will discuss and review Executive Session Minutes of October 12, December 14, and March 8th. And also, for the purpose of consulting with our attorney on questions, issues, pertaining to the Commission's powers, duties, privileges, immunities, and liabilities. MS. TODD: Do we have enough? MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: So moved. Page 113 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 Vote on Motion To enter into Executive Session (Approved) RECESS: RECONVENE: RECESS: RECONVENE: CHR. ADAMS: Alright, it has been moved by Commissioner Zelko-Schlueter, seconded by Commissioner Springer. All in favor of moving into Executive Session, please signify by saying "aye" (aye), any opposed? Alright. Commissioner Zelko-Schlueter moved to enter into Executive Session in order to hold attorney-client privilege discussion and review of Executive Session minutes of October 12, 2018, December 14, 2018, and March 8, 2019. Seconded by Commissioner Saquing. Ayes: Noes: Absent: Excused: Commissioners Hamano, Rice, Roehrig, Springer, Todd, Zelko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams -7 None. Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Hopkins, and Saquing — 4 None . At 3:30 p.m., the Chair called for a recess to go into Executive Session. The meeting reconvened at 3:39 p.m. CHR. ADAMS: Let's open ourselves up here real quick. A brief recess while we do that. At 3:39 p.m., the Chair called for a recess. The meeting reconvened at 3:40 p.m. CHR. ADAMS: We are back in open session. I would entertain a motion to approve the Executive Session Minutes of October 12, 2018, December 14, 2018, and March 8, 2019, as reviewed during Executive Session. MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: So moved. CHR. ADAMS: Is there a second? MS. RICE: Second. Page 114 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 CHR. ADAMS: It has been moved by Commissioner Zelko-Schlueter and seconded by Commissioner Rice. Any discussion? All in favor of the motion, please signify by saying "aye" (aye), any opposed? Motion passes unanimously with Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Hopkins, and Saquing excused. Alright. Thank you very much for that. Moving on to Agenda Items for Next Regularly Scheduled Meeting, are there any suggestions from Commissioners on future agenda items? Alright. I think that this... okay, and now let's move into Announcements. Without objection and I don't know if I can do this, we will find out shortly. Without objection, I would like to suspend the rules having to do with our next regularly scheduled meeting. So right now we have a regularly scheduled meeting that is scheduled for Friday, May 10th. I would like to propose that that become May 17th. I know that we have a couple of folks that are going to have difficulties with that because they are going to be leaving on the 15th and the 16th, I heard. Does the 17th work for everybody else? MR. ROEHRIG: I don't know right now. I would have to check. MS. RICE: Yeah, I am dubious. CHR. ADAMS: So May 10th doesn't work for the Vice -Chair. MS. RICE: And Kevin said he would be gone. CHR. ADAMS: I know, that's why I was saying. I knew that Commissioner Hopkins and Commissioner Saquing both indicated to me that they would be gone as well. MS. RICE: May 10th was because it was too short of time? CHR. ADAMS: That was part of the reason, but we will turn around. If we have to we can turn it around. That is what the County Clerk has already said. It just becomes an issue for me, but that is life. Okay. So then there is not necessarily a need to suspend rules for the next regularly scheduled meeting. However, we didn't do it last time, but I would like to consider this time that we look at June. The regularly scheduled meeting in June is the second Friday, which I think is the 14th. Rather than have the regularly scheduled meeting on the 14th of June, I would like us to plan for a meeting on the 7th, and a meeting on the 21st. So that is Friday the 7th of June, and Friday the 21st of June. June. MS. RICE: Then can we go back to the eleven o'clock? CHR. ADAMS: Oh, we can talk about that. One second. Before we do that, let me just make sure. So June 7th and June 21st everybody is good with? Page 115 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 MR. HENRICKS: Can I consult with our calendar to make sure we have availability? CHR. ADAMS: Please. That would be great. MR. HENRICKS: Sorry, I should have had it on me. I should know by now. But in the interim if you want to talk about meeting time for May 17th? CHR. ADAMS; Sure. May 10th actually. MR. HENRICKS: Oh, I am sorry. May 10th. CHR. ADAMS: So May 10th would be in West Hawai`i Civic Center. Does eleven o'clock work for everyone? MR. HENRICKS: Am I hearing that neither our Chair, nor our Vice -Chair are available that day? CHR. ADAMS: No. I am... I have to blow off the other thing because I got to be here. MR. HENRICKS: Oh, I see. MS. ZELKO-SCHLUETER: I am not available. MS. TODD: It's in Kona? CHR. ADAMS: It is. MR. HENRICKS: It will be in Kona. MS. TODD: And at what time? CHR. ADAMS: Okay, so we would have it at eleven o'clock and run through what we need to do. That would be a... what we would be looking at on May 10th would be all of the remainder... remaining First Reading activities which essentially would be the three Initial Approvals that passed. Okay. Plus, I wonder if we need 11:00 a.m.?, I wonder if 1:30 p.m. is... MS. RICE: Because there is so little? CHR. ADAMS: Because ... MR. HENRICKS: You know, as Chair points out, right now, at least the items that would be expected to appear or will appear will be the CA -28, for First Page 116 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 Reading, CA -29, as amended to Draft 2, for First Reading, and CA -30, for First Reading. CHR. ADAMS: Right. MR. HENRICKS: Correct? Agree? CHR. ADAMS: That would be, that would be what we are doing. MS. RICE: That's fine. CHR. ADAMS: So, if everyone is okay, why don't we ... MS. RICE: It is my backyard so... CHR. ADAMS: Right. If everybody is okay, we will say 1:30 p.m. on, we will keep the time... MR. ROEHRIG: Back to 1:30 p.m.? CHR. ADAMS: One -thirty on May 10th. Thank you for that. MS. TODD: One -thirty on May 10th. Okay. CHR. ADAMS: Alright, and then on the June meetings, the June meeting here in Hilo, on June 7th we will be going through all of the Second Readings that we will have at that point. All of them. I would suggest that we start it like we did today, at 9:30 a.m. if it's...is everybody okay with that? And if you are not, don't worry, we are still going to do it, so... MS. RICE: We have public hearing right? CHR. ADAMS: It is. It is a regularly scheduled meeting, and then... MS. RICE: (inaudible) CHR. ADAMS: And then the June 21st meeting will be a special meeting because it will be the second one. So it will be the special meeting for us to consider the Activities, Findings, and Recommendations Report, plus the final (inaudible). So that would be the 21st. Two weeks later. The 21st of June. MR. HENRICKS: Right. Which is essentially a ratification vote of the Charter Commission's work and an approval of the report that will be provided to the Council. Page 117 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 CHR. ADAMS: That's right. MS. RICE: In Kona? CHR. ADAMS: That would be in Kona. MS. RICE: Is that 9:30 a.m. too? CHR. ADAMS: You know I would like... MR. HENRICKS: I will reserve the chambers for the day just for now. CHR. ADAMS: Yeah. I don't know the answer to that until we get through the June 7th meeting. MS. RICE: Oh, okay. MR. HENRICKS: And I would note that my calendar indicates that summer begins that day. That's nice. MS. RICE: We will be in Kona. It's hotter. CHR. ADAMS: Yeah, I'll tell you what, you know, for the purposes of everybody's calendar, why don't we just say 9:30 a.m. on the 21st and then we will go from there? MR. HENRICKS: Okay. We will have the chambers available. CHR. ADAMS: Okay. Alrighty. Thank you for that as we suspended our rules to make those things happen. MR. HENRICKS: So to be clear, we are on for May 10th at the regular... CHR. ADAMS: May 10th, 1:30 p.m., Building A, West Hawai`i Civic Center. MR. HENRICKS. Thank you. Thank you, Chair Adams. CHR. ADAMS: I would entertain a motion to adjourn. MS. RICE: So moved. CHR. ADAMS: It has been seconded. All in favor? (aye), meeting adjourned. Thank you all. You guys are rough and tough tumblers. Page 118 Hawai`i County Charter Commission -10 April 25, 2019 Vote on Motion There being no further business, at 3:47 p.m. Commissioner Rice moved that Adjourn the meeting be adjourned. Seconded by Commissioner Todd and carried by (Approved): the following voice vote: Ayes: Commissioners Hamano, Rice, Roehrig, Springer, Todd, Ze1ko-Schlueter, and Chair Adams — 7 Noes: None. Absent: Commissioners Bergin, Galimba, Hopkins, and Saquing — 4 Excused: None . Commission Approval: May 10, 2019 s Shipman A • ams, Chair 21 5-20 01-lawai`i County Charter Commission Page 119