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Home My WebLink About2019 06-25 Game Management Advisory Commission Minutes Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 Game Management Advisory Commission County of Hawaii Minutes Meeting Date: June 25, 2019 Time: 6:30 p.m. Place: Hawaii County Building – Council Chambers I. CALL TO ORDER/ROLL CALL: Meeting was called to order at 6:30 pm. Stanley Mendes, District 1 – here Kean Umeda, District 2 – here James O’Keefe - District 3 – here Naniloa Poglen, District 4 - here Abraham Antonio, District 5 - here Grayson Hashida - District 6 - here Bronsten-Glenn “Kalei” Kossow, District 7 - here Teresa Nakama, District 8 – aye George Donev, District 9 - present Quorum established ALSO PRESENT: Malia Hall, Corporation Counsel Donna Urban-Higuchi, Executive Assistant to Mayor Kim GUESTS: Mark Crivello – Grazing Management Ian Cole APPROVAL OF MINUTES: BKK: Jim O’Keefe moved for approval of the May 14, 2019 minutes as submitted. Seconded by Teresa Nakama and carried unanimously by voice vote. FINANCIAL REPORT: BKK: Moving on to financial report. Has everybody had the time to read that? Is there a motion to approve the financial report? 1 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 Teresa Nakama moved for approval of the May 14, 2019 financial report as submitted. Seconded by Nani Pogline and carried unanimously by voice vote. STATEMENTS FROM THE PUBLIC ON AGENDA ITEMS: BKK: At this time I welcome anybody from the public to come up and speak – if you do – you can come up to these two chairs, press the red button and you’re more than welcome to say anything you want – also throughout the presentations and agenda items you’re more than welcome to come up and speak. All right – we’re gonna move on to Mr. Mark – I’m actually gonna recognize Teresa to introduce Mark. PRESENTATION: a. Mark Crivello – Grazing Management TN: Good evening everybody. For our guest speaker this evening we have Mark Crivello to do his presentation on his ecological goats and sheep. Thank you, Mark, for being here. MC: Thank you everybody for having me here tonight to talk a little about the goats and sheep and how they do their grazing differently and have a great impact on the environment. First of all my name is Mark Crivello with 3C Goat Grazing formerly known as Aina Pono Livestock and Land Maintenance. As I mentioned, I’m here tonight to talk about my goats and sheep and their eating habits which – goats and sheep do have different eating habit – sheep are grazers – goats are browsers. So they eat in different ways like different vegetations – so you can utilize them in different ways. So with saying that I would like to mention some of the benefits of the animals which is both of them are great for fire breaks – clearing lands in a natural way to help better our soils and with clearing the lands out this will actually improve habitats for other animals and let other animals and species thrive off of what they should be hunting for and stuff like that. MC: I would like to mention that we are grass farmers and conservationists – we’re not just livestock producers. When we go into clearing lands we like to do the best we can – environmentally safe, environmentally friendly, and help preserve our native forests. By saying that – the animals will actually help with invasive plants and species to knock it down so our native plants can thrive. They can get the right sunlight and grow, I guess, grow. Sorry, I’m a little nervous here. So, yeah, as I said, at our company we try out hardest of being the best conservationists that we can. To work this – to do a lot of our work we actually do intensive grazing with our goats. Intensive grazing is over 2 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 populating the land to the goats will actually eat everything in sight – that way they can be picky – they can eat their SPAM, they can eat their steak. Everything’s all together. That’s the intensive part – the intensive grazing. With the conservation part – we like to open it up little bit more, little bit less numbers and like to use our arsenal sheep for that. Just like I mentioned earlier, the sheep are grazers. They like to eat grass. They don’t want to touch plants, trees – they’re grass grazers. And saying that, if you want your numbers because what we actually do before we going to any pieces of property we’ll take a little jig that we have, cut the grass, figure out how much pounds of dry matter we have – so we know how much pounds of animals to put inside there. It’s a lot of science that goes into this – it’s not just grazing – it’s a lof of science. With this jig like that – how I just mentioned – we can calculate how long the animals are gonna take to clear an area and with that being said, you can do it in a conservationist way to help protect the plants, cause you’re working on the numbers of animals, you’re not over grazing – you’re not under grazing. You’re working it together. The next thing that is very important about the animals besides just the grazing is the insects that they bring around. The insects are actually food for birds, bats, and other species out there. Everything is working in a tight ecosystem and we want to keep it in balance. By taking away too much of one thing – you can create an off-balance, I guess you could put it – which will have devastating results in the future. So, like I keep on mentioning – this is a big science project and it takes a lot of heads to actually get together to keep everything intact correctly and furthermore a good part about the animals is – by utilizing animals you will cut your herbicide use dramatically. I can’t give you the exact percentage because there are vegetations out there that the animals won’t eat due to being toxic. So there, you know, not like I’m saying you can totally wipe out herbicide use or anything like that – got to be honest on that – so by cutting out the herbicide use – that will actually help keep ourselves better, because you guys all know by using herbicides it doesn’t only kill the grass or the plant, it actually kills the soil and all the bacterias in the soil also. We want to stop from doing that cause by doing that too – you’re actually loosening up your soils and it can cause erosions. It’s amazing how just by grazing animals how much science goes behind this to make this work out perfectly. We want to do our best to keep the ecosystem in a balance. Animals, insects, native plants, native species, native birds and with utilizing the goats and sheep – that’ll be a big help in keeping everything in balance and last but not least our company invested in a helicopter to do aerial movements on animals. As much as possible, we do not want to leave a footprint on the ground. By the air we’re eliminating traffic on the ground – where we can actually move our animals and we can also take in equipment that we need – into native places where you don’t want to drive any vehicles inside. So I guess we can say our company’s biggest goal at 3-C is to help the environment, to keep it balanced and eco friendly as best as we can. Thank you guys so much for having me. Does anybody have any questions? 3 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 SM: What kind plants you guys run into that are toxic for the goats or the sheep too – or just the sheep? MC: Both species – I’m gonna be honest – I can’t name all of them. There is numerous ones. We know white sap – anything with white sap is actually a toxin to animals and we are actually doing more research as we talk on spring – during the spring we’re actually running into problems where some of the blossoms can be a little toxic too. So we’re actually doing more research on these toxic plants. SM: Because you know that castor oil bean – that’s supposed to be toxic – and the goats they crack that so... MC: One thing we luck out with the goats – they actually can handle 90% of toxins in a day. Our company don’t – we don’t like to push them that far – it’s a health issue and we have a no kill herd – so our animals is like our kids and we don’t want to push them that far. We’ll push them maybe out a 50/60 % toxic plants. Not more than that. SM: What about water for these goats. You guys bring in water? MC: We bring in our own water. Once in a while we do luck out where there is water ponds and stuff like that on the properties we do work on – but most of the time we bring in our own fresh water. JO: Are most of our clients – your customers private? Do you work with the State or the County on any particular parcels? What’s your mix of business? MC: We started – don’t get me wrong – we still doing private people. Proud to say one of our biggest clients is actually is Hawaii National Guard down KMR in Hilo, which we, actually, with a big group of us we actually won some awards for being environmentally friendly land clearing. It was a big project – it took a lot of strategies – a lot of us putting our heads together and we got this project done – very proud to say. JO: Nice recognition to put on your hat there – nice hat by the way... MC: Thank you. TN: Being that goats are browsers how do you contain the goats in one of your projects where they don’t eat everything. How is protection given to our natural resources of plants and shrubbery that are either indigenous or endemic? How do you control that? 4 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 BKK: It turned off again there... MC: Sorry about that. OK. The control of our animals is with electrical netting. We can place that anywhere around anything so we’re not – how can I put it – we’re not limited to what we can do with the electric netting. I don’t want to sound too confident or cocky but with our herd and our netting, I’m confident that I could actually go in the middle of downtown Hilo or anyplace in the state - put my net up and have my goats graze – and sheep. Like I said, I’m not trying to sound cocky or anything but I’m that confident in the animals and the netting. It’s very, very good and effective. BKK: What’s the hardest thing you’re facing? MC: Some of the hardest things we face is – honestly, research and development. Our company is so unique in what we do – all the research and development comes out of our pockets and we are very limited on that. We wish we could do more research. Sad to say we just don’t have the funding for it and hopefully one day we will, cause I think we got something good going here and we really, really want to do more research to find out what more these animals are capable of doing. KU: Would the animals that you use versus the animals up on Mauna Kea being feral – what would be the difference you think honestly with the vegetation that they would have to live off of – would they be pretty similar to what your animals would do or would they – they would do a good job? MC: Yes, actually, the feral animals would do a great job. They’re no different from the animals I have. They’re all the same species and thank you for bringing that up cause what I see with the feral animals right now – they can be utilized in so much ways instead of just being eradicated. DLNR – I shouldn’t bust out – I shouldn’t say any names – sorry – I don’t know who made fencing up there but we know there’s fencing that was made for eradications. I actually jumped up in joy when I heard about this fencing being made – not for the eradication part – but for the part I see – that we can utilize our animals in these fenced areas to put the forests back into pristine conditions and move them around – like how we would actually work on a regular pasture and that’s where the helicopter would actually come in really, really handy – moving these animals around that mountain from what we would call from paddock to paddock and one of our biggest problems with that is just managing it the correct way – animal numbers, animal count. Like how I mentioned earlier – you don’t want to over populate but yet you don’t want to under populate and I’m gonna be honest – if we eradicate all the sheep or animals off of that mountain we will run into a major, major disaster – fires – our birds – the palila bird that everybody – that they’re trying to save – their habitats are gonna get wiped out. The trees can’t grow due to the grass being too high – now if a fire comes through – like how I mentioned too – that wipes 5 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 out their whole habitat. So utilizing the animals will actually save a lot for our environment in more than one way. SM: We need somebody like you to work with maybe DLNR to help them to see the big picture. Because you have already been proving it, you know, in your work, so maybe we can have you help us? MC: Thank you so much. I would be more than honored to help with a project like this. Like I mentioned, it can be done, it’s gonna take a lot of people and a lot of minds getting together. Cause I’m good with the animals and the grazing and how to keep track of this kind of stuff but, of course, we’ll have to work with a lot of other entities to get all the scientific proof behind what we’re doing and I think we can make it work. I would actually love to do that. SM: The bird numbers actually went down, you know, the sheep – the sheep is not there. They said this last month’s flier was zero come out. This was when the guy that went up for salvage and he told me zero came out, so... If that’s true, I don’t know... MC: I do have some pictures I brought with me this evening showing actually how the palila bird utilizes the sheep’s wool for their nests. We do have pictures here. I thank my uncle guys for that pictures. They’re really into trying to help this bird and you know they see all this kind of stuff – they got these pictures for me – great, great picture – it shows the wool right in the nest. MC: First we have the palila bird, of course, all you can see – on the back – this is actually the nest and if you guys want I can bring it up to you guys so you guys can pass it around. I’ll give you guys all the pictures to look. So, right here, this picture – this is actually one our award winning projects that the sheep went through. You look how pristine this forest is. All the trees are still intact – the sheep did the job. Very, very proud of this. NP: Where is that? MC: This is actually at the National Guard at KMR. Like I said very, very proud of what the sheep did on this project. These pictures here – not too eye appealing – but this is reality. This is our ecosystem at its best. We have little bugs in here – dung beetles and other insects that is actually food for the birds, for the bats. So... NP: \[Unclear\] a game bird? 6 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 MC: Yes. Any type, a lot of birds eat insects so this actually help the insect population. NP: Would help the game bird by going in – taking down brush – providing dung – so it could revitalize our game birds. MC: Oh, big time. Like another thing it’s gonna do for the game birds – now with vegetation down from the sheep eating it – it will help the birds find food on the ground – mice, rats – and it’ll actually help them see predators too – cause you know we have a lot of feral cats and mongoose and all the great creatures around – so this will actually open up the fields so the birds can actually see the predators too. NP: Can you share your photos also with our audience? MC: This is some pictures of beetles working the dung – sorry got to go back real quick. This is a picture of KMR – National Guard – proud to say we won some awards with this one and I wanted to show you guys a picture of my goats – why I like to show this picture is to let everybody see we have a no kill herd – we take pride in our animals. They live their lives – they work very hard clearing the land so we don’t slaughter them – they get to live long healthy lives if \[unclear\] doesn’t get to them first. And here – we actually have three phases of a job that I did for a fire break and it’s actually with ohia trees and stuff like that around – other native plants – and this one we actually utilize goats and sheep in this project, which this project actually due to vegetation – we actually had to do a lot of strategies – how much numbers of goats to how much numbers of sheep so they’ll finish the project together due to the differences they eat. NP: So you say the goats are browsers and the sheep are grazers... MC: Grazers, yes... NP: So you would take the goats in where you have shrub that needs cleared... What kind of shrub – like would they eat Clidemia hirta – Koster’s curse – that’s a tough one. MC: That’s one of those toxic plants... MC: They’ll eat a little but they won’t take it out completely. Sad to say – I wish they would eat it a little bit more. NP: Waiwi? 7 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 MC: Waiwi – they’ll eat waiwi – they’re a great killer on guavas. That’s the goats now – not the sheep – let me rephrase that. So the goats do a great job with the bush – bush removal – like to utilize the two types of animals due to their differences in eating. NP: Because you clear the brush and then ancient seed of native plant under the brush can get light and can – cause those seeds remain vital for a long time and they’ll come up then – so it seems like a win-win situation. MC: It’s a win-win situation right around. SM: When you see this one place like that – supposed to only be sheep there – and you have them eating the bark from the trees – is that because of the no water? Mauna Kea you have sheep- I mean that’s only what get left on Mauna Kea and you see ‘em stripping some bark on the mamane – is that because there is no water or? MC: I’m gonna be honest. I’m sorry I never – for me – that’s a whole different environment up there – I never did really get to work with it and see what’s happening – it could be a different issue where there’s not enough vegetation and it’s just overgrazed or something in that area. Cause sheep... SM: No, there’s no sheep left and when they had they were just – unless maybe it’s not stripping – maybe it’s their horns – they, you know, rubbing. Maybe that’s what it is. MC: I gotta say sheep don’t have a tendency of eating bark like that unless if they’re starving and that’s all they have to eat, you know how it is – they’re gonna eat that Vienna Sausage if they have to. SM: No because somebody said that it’s because of the – if you no have water – they gotta get their moisture from someplace so they eating the bark. MC: You’d be surprised – the animals get a lot of their moisture through the grass itself. You know, especially like early mornings when you have that dew on the grass like that – you’d be amazed – a lot of water intake is actually from that type of stuff. SM: So you feel it’s not what they doing then – it’s not the sheep – maybe just is rubbing instead of eating. MC: I gotta say I cannot answer that one cause I haven’t seen it- I don’t think it’s eating unless they were starving. 8 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 I wanted to show you guys – I got a couple more pictures to show – this is actually guinea grass that was eight – almost nine feet tall – this is a project I did with 100% goats – so actually you guys can see how this grass is. It’s amazing what you find in the grass when you clear it. And look at the hapuu like that, that the goats actually left behind. This is 100% goats that did this project right here. And like I mentioned, I’m really confident in the goats staying in their fencing with that. This was actually right in a subdivision in Hilo that I did this project so... As you guys can see. BKK: Before you start a project – what are some of the things you look for as far as in the area – what animal to use – what area the animal shouldn’t go towards – and then if you find native species how do you protect them? MC: Great question cause with that one – when we go to a project to look at – of course, every project is different and unique cause this is the Big Island. We will watch, of course, what types of vegetations to see what kind of arsenal we’re gonna bring in -goats or sheep or how much goats to how much sheep to bring in. Cause it’s always a balancing act – you want them to finish the project at the same time eating all vegetation. If we do notice native plants in the area – there is a few projects that we wrap them up with the electric netting so the animals won’t touch them or in other situations we’ll just put 100% sheep to ensure that they won’t hurt the plants. SM: It’s kind of puzzling, yeah, when you get ‘em in Puuwaawaa and they saying that sheep is eating all these native plants up there and they’re grazers, yeah? So kinda no jive with what they’re telling us. MC: It’s totally not jiving. Maybe when they taking these datas – I don’t want to try bash anybody – I’m not here to do that – I didn’t get to see the circumstances what was going on - it sounds like it was just a massive over grazing – over population, which, of course, that is a major problem. So if they’re eating all the native trees and plants that means they’re starving and they’re going for that Vienna Sausage, which of course they want their steaks and filet mignons. SM: That’s why it’s kind of puzzling, what we’ve – we’ve been told. MC: I gotta say for the research I’ve been doing all this time – I’m a full time shepherd – I live with my animals. I go to sleep next to my animals – I wake up next to my animals – I see everything they do and that’s a little puzzling on – just regular grazing that they were eating all of that – that’s – I don’t think that’s correct info. BKK: Stanley, do you have any more questions? Go ahead Teresa. 9 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 TN: I guess where most people aren’t fully knowledgeable of the proper questions to ask – now that you’ve given us some knowledge we may be able to ask the proper question and ask them – what were the circumstances – what were the numbers of sheep grazing there... Was there an over population, what there enough grass for them to eat and, you know, you’ve given us this knowledge that we can now ask proper questions instead of just listening to those who are telling us that the sheep are eating everything and that’s not true according to your work that you’ve done and what you’ve seen – so various circumstances will call for more specific questions that we can get down to – I appreciate you informing us. Thank you. MC: Yes, you are welcome. I’m more than glad to help with all this research like that – we do have a big passion for this. I started, like I mentioned, we started off this company as a grazing company and one seminar changed my whole look – when the person at the seminar told me – you’re not a rancher you’re a grass farmer. That’s when I opened up my eyes and started realizing a whole lot of things that these animals can do and I guess a lot of ranchers we always want to better our animals so we want the best vegetation for ‘em so we’re always doing research and trying to do development so we don’t have to spend the extra monies of minerals and supplements and work on our grounds a lot. JO: We’re going to be looking at the Hawaii State Game Management Plan or the proposed plan there and I think you would be a great resource to perhaps incorporate some of the experience you have – game management skills you’ve talked about – putting then in paddocks up there to control the overgrowth of weeds – creating big fire hazards and such and so I think we’d like to call on you if you’re available for that and to that end can we have your contact information? If you could leave that with us today. MC: Yes, of course. One last picture for everybody and then I hope – I still hope you guys got some more questions for me – I still want to answer some more – but the last picture I have – this is actually 3-Cs newest arsenal. This is a revolution mini- 500 helicopter. So with this machine we’re hoping to do like how I mentioned – air movement with the animals and taking in equipment so we don’t have to put any footprints on the ground – keep everything as natural as we can. BKK: Have you done any test runs on it as far as the movements of the herds through...? 10 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 MC: No I’m actually in training right now – I’m actually getting my license – don’t want to kill myself – don’t want to kill any animals out there – it’s a very tricky, tricky machine so I’m actually in the process of getting my license but I’m very, very lucky where I do have people helping me with knowledge on helicopters on how to move animals and stuff like that – so I’m very grateful for the help I’ve been getting. SM: How much acres you guys take care of you know when you put your animals in – how many acres is you guys doing at one time. MC: At one time – with the intensive grazing – like I mentioned we like to flood it so we’re fencing up – it depends on vegetation – height of vegetation – how much pounds of vegetation – we’ll fence off an acre to two acres and we’ll utilize anywhere from 150 to 250 animals in that acre to two acres. But that is with the intensive grazing. Now, like I mentioned, everything is fair game for them – Vienna sausage, steaks – they have to eat it all. But when we do the more sensitive ones – we’ll actually open up our paddocks – give them more room to work around so they don’t have to take out everything and we watch the numbers we put in – more sensitive spots we’re looking up fencing up also two acres – we’re putting in 50-70 head of sheep. SM: So the helicopter going be broader acreage. MC: We’re hoping to get projects off-island – anywhere thru the state cause we know – especially Oahu they do have some places that has forest fires every single year on these big hills so we’re actually looking at this helicopter to move the animals around the hills like that and to drop off the fencing so no vehicles has to go up there, well, actually vehicles can’t even make it up these areas so I think this is gonna be a real good arsenal for the type of work we do – as weird as it sounds – it just puts us up in the area and you don’t have people breaking plants and vegetation as you’re trying to chase animals or do other things with the animals. BKK: Is there any other questions form – you had a question? AA: So with the problem we get with Rapid Ohia Death what is your guys’ prevention about that? Because the dust stick to the hooves and then you gotta go and clean ‘em. So what’s you guys program with Rapid Ohia Death. MC: Rapid Ohia Death – is actually an airborne disease. AA: Not really. They’re saying it’s on the ground and it gets stuck to the hooves and then you \[unclear\] around too. That’s why you gotta scrub your feet, scrub your toes... 11 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 MC: We do have washes that our goats’ hooves go inside – we do spray our animals with permethrin cause we don’t want fire ants and other insects going where they don’t belong – but the Rapid Ohia Death – like I tell we do hoof washes as they go through – but that’s a hard one cause we actually helped with that studies with the ohia death and it’s actually an air borne thing – it’s nothing to do with animals. Sorry – I was part of that research that they did cause they actually utilized my animals to see if they would cause any damage. AA: Good, you wash your animals so... MC: The best we can do. Honestly that is very concerning what Abraham just mentioned is taking different creatures – yeah – from job-to-job and we do not want to do that. Cause even like for our own property – we’re fire ant free and trust me we fight to keep it that way so we make sure all our animals and equipment do have the right washings. SM: When they say that the last think that they came out saying that they gonna take out all the hooved animals from the forest because the hooved animals are destroying the – not destroying but marking the trees and that is causing the Rapid Ohia – is false then? MC: I got to watch that on You Tube also cause, you know what I mean, I heard it on the job site and I actually got to see it on You Tube – the scientists on the project mentioning it’s the wind that causes it – cause if you think about it – all it takes is one limb to snap – it can catch it from that. And what they’ve been noticing is the way the thing been travelling is wind patterns that been pushing it all over. So it’s not the animals – cause the Rapid Ohia Death is in forests that they took out all the animals. So the animals can’t cause the problems if there’s no animals in there. So, yeah, that is an air borne thing – it’s nothing to do with animals at all – the Rapid Ohia Death. NP: And the borer beetle. The beetle that bores into the ohia – I think that makes more sense. So you’re saying that with proper management – whether they be domestic herds like yours or wild herds – if they’re managed properly they can completely be of beneficial way of maintain. MC: Yes, and by managing them correct – it will help out our ecosystem... NP: Without herbicide. MC: Yes. The least amount – minimum amount. Cause I gonna be honest – with today’s different plants and all these different viruses and everything we do need a little modern medicines – I guess you could put it – to handle some 12 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 situations but the animals will put that as least – bring that down to the least amount as possible. NP: Really great. Thank you so much. MC: Thank you guys so much for having me here... BKK: Before you leave – you have two attachments – can you explain both of them just really briefly. MC: I wanted to show you guys that – that the project with the National Guard that we won first place in the nation for DOD National Guard and Army – we won three awards for being environmentally friendly and this was recognized by the NRC. This is government agencies that actually recognized the tremendous work and the great work that everybody did on these projects and if you guys read up a little bit about it – if you guys do have time – it’ll show you guys the facts on what the sheep and goats did, the tremendous cost reduction they had by utilizing our animals and the great environmental impact cause now they’re utilizing more land down there and their herbicide use, if I’m not mistaken, went down 90-95% so they’re very, very happy – the NRC is very happy with what the goats and sheep been doing and like I said – that project is a very, very big project. We do have a lot of eyes on us with scientists, professors – we actually noticed an increase on the native bat – the Hoary Bat – noticed an increase on hawks, owls. The goats and sheep actually helped to bring back these animals around the area and it was amazing cause I, myself, seen the difference as the project was going on – in the evening parts – dusk – we’d be talking – we’d just finished moving the animals – we’d be talking – Hoary Bats would be flying right past our faces, which at the beginning we didn’t notice anything like that... AA: How long this project been going? MC: I’ve been down there for three years now... AA: OK. MC: And I gotta say it’s – very, very proud that what you guys are reading there we are – our awards was presented at the Pentagon. So, you know, that makes me very proud. A local business off of just being out there every day and noticing the environment helped win this award, so it was – it feels great. BKK: Is there any other questions. AA: Since you was working with the National Guards is there any talks or whatever to actually go up into Pohakuloa cause there’s a lot of like paddock areas already there? 13 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 MC: Up Pohakuloa... AA: \[Unclear\] work with like the bird hunters and kind of establish more bird hunting areas? It’s with Pohakuloa Training Area. MC: Yes, Pohakuloa Training Area AA: It’s still with the military? MC: I would actually love to do more projects with them. Right now we’re actually down at the airport – Hilo Airport? We’d love to do more projects with the military – like that... AA: Basically because you already got your foot in the door on one side – so you guys already kinda get talks to go to the next step or you guys just still down there yet? MC: Still down there yet. Trust me I’ve been trying to knock on every door possible – trying to let everybody know to utilize these animals and I gotta say it hasn’t really caught on yet – even though they utilize it a lot on the mainland – it hasn’t caught on in the state yet and I’m hoping that I can bring this to more people \[mic off\]. MC: And have us use \[mic not on\] like I’ll actually put my goats and sheep right in the middle of this highways in the medians. TN: I guess what he’s asking is have you done a proposal for your project to be up at Pohakuloa and have you approached them? It’s a yes or no. MC: We had a project they called us upon to look at and that project fell through and so far there’s no other projects that popped up with them. TN: Thank you. SM: I like what you doing and stuff like that but as far as Pohakuloa, Mauna Kea hunting areas – I want them to bring back the animals for us – for hunting. You know what I mean – one outside entity come in to eat the grass cause kinda defeat the purpose – they killing all the goats and sheep there and then they going hire, you know, one private company to come in and take care of this kind of no make sense. 14 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 MC: I totally agree with what you’re saying, cause trust me – I’m a small little peanut out there – there’s not ways I could handle taking care this whole state. SM: No, I not dumping on your parade but, you know, it’s just for us as one game management commission we want see for the public? MC: Right. That’s what I hope I can actually help in – cause don’t get me wrong – my company would be great to be utilized around county and state facilities, around this, I mean – civilization we should say. But for the mountain and places like that we should actually utilize the animals up there – why eradicate ‘em when we can utilize them and like how you mentioned everything works hand in hand – cause if you utilize the animals correct up there – they’re gonna be part of a conservation act but yet, you know when they start breeding they multiply like crazy and this actually opens it up for the hunters to do their gatherings and, you know... ....get all their meat and stuff like that. So it’s well rounded – it’s not only for conservationing – it’s actually for the hunters cause, of course, animals keep on populating. You have to keep the right amount of animals and the whole thing too it’s so sensitive – say this year we can actually keep 1,000 head – I’m just throwing a number out there for everybody – so saying this year we can keep 1,000 head in this area – they’re working good, population comes up – now we’re at 1,600 – I just throwing out numbers – 1,600 – you start bringing that numbers back down to 1,000 – now next year goes on – we’re in a massive drought – now we got to pay attention to all of this too cause now this drought we might actually even have to drop down the numbers little bit more – and then the following year you let me – you go according to... SM: That’s management. MC: Yes, yes. JO: That is called game management, yes... MC: I hope I got to answer your question with that one cause I’m not trying to get everything out there. I really want to see the feral animals doing the job – they were over here for hundreds of years and one thing all us humans have to remember – we are getting lazy nowadays – from the beginning of time – animals always did our jobs for us. Without machines – diesel motors, gas motors – hey, luxury – no – let’s go back- take it back a little. Let’s start utilizing our animals. They do the same job as a lawn mower. I actually wish I could show you guys a video that I have on one of the projects I’m doing – they had a great big D-6 knocking down grass – the end result was the same thing as my animals. How much pollution did they do? How much pollution did 15 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 we do? So I’m just hoping that we can utilize the animals and not – lessen the machines – utilize the animals more. That’s the whole goal. BKK: Any other questions? All right. Thank you Mark, appreciate it. MC: Thank you guys so much. BKK: And then if anybody wants to see his photos – are you gonna stay afterwards? MC: Yes. Thank you guys so much. BKK: OK. Thank you. OLD BUSINESS: a. Commission Rules and Regulations BKK: Under 6a Commission Rules and Regulations – I’m resurrecting this one – the revision was made last week – is there a motion to bring it to the table? There’s a motion by Teresa Nakama, seconded by George Donev– is there any discussion? No discussion? Everybody likes it? All right... ?: Actually, this is first time I see ‘em so maybe we should chair ‘em to the next session. I never read ‘em that’s why yet. MH: This is Malia – just as a comment –, so like if you guys are gonna actually adopt rules the state law basically means you have to post them for thirty days so... BKK: All right. MH: You wouldn’t be able to adopt them tonight anyways. TN: This is Teresa. I withdraw my motion. BKK: Table. MH: You’re more than welcome to discuss it tonight, but just there will be no adoption, yeah... b. Game Management Plan (GMP) 1. Requesting Hawai’i County Game Management Advisory Commission to create a temporary committee for the Game Management Plan (GMP), to 16 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 work, consult and advise the Department of Land and Natural Resources, State Game Management Advisory Commission, and to communicate with the hunting community on Hawai’i Island. The Committee on Game Management Plan (CGMP) is to read, review and understand past attempts of the plan, as well as, communicating further updates and changes to the current plan in review. CGMP will provide a monthly report to the commission until which time its expiration would be the implementation into policy. Four (4) members of the commission and any members of the community must be approved by the chairperson. Nominating: Nani Poglin as Chair and Bronsten Kossow as Vice-Chair. BKK: Moving over to 6b. We’re gonna talk about the Game Management Plan under 6b 1. I’m requesting to create a committee on the Game Management Plan and it will expire, um, there’s something gets pushed forward four members of the commission and any members of the community can be on this committee. Also, there is nominating Nani as Chair, by the way, and myself at the Vice Chair. Is there a motion to bring this to the table? 2. Game Management Plan Discussion BKK: It’s been motioned by Teresa Nakama, seconded by Jim O’Keefe – is there any discussion? TN: Call for the question? JO: Point of clarification on that. You said four commission members? BKK: Four commission members... MH: Yeah, it has to be less than quorum. JO: Has to be less than quorum, OK... MH: A quorum is five, yes... BKK: All right so the main motion is on the table – calling for the question – all in favor – on the main motion say aye. \[The ayes have it\] BKK: Any opposed? The motion carries. All right – moving along to – the 2. I’m just gonna open up the discussion for the Game Management Plan. I brought that in so if you want – I can write down everything – whatever everybody thinks of and I think that we as a committee do need to come 17 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 up with some idea and submit it to the State Game Management Commission. TN: Yes, Bronsten – get up there start writing. BKK: Nora do you have a microphone? NP: Kalei shouldn’t we invite Ian Cole up first to give us an update? BKK: Is there any updates right now? OK. So basically it’s just the draft that’s gonna be \[unclear\]... NP: I just had some questions that would be relevant. Are they giving you instructions about the Game Management Plan – what are the limitations of, you know, to goals in it or the guidelines that they’re giving you cause we were told that it’s gonna be behind closed door this draft plan and then you’d bring it to us... IC: The draft is basically what had been written originally and I haven’t a chance to go over it and I guess they just made some tweaks – I haven’t had a chance to look at ‘em – so we’re gonna start with that... I want an opportunity to look at it and then bring it forth. I don’t think it’s anything earth shattering from what was presented – the plan that you – some of you all originally worked on - but the goal would probably – I was just looking back here at some of the goals that Dick had explained – I can’t image they’re gonna change much from that... IC: But as far as direction, per se, no. To look it over and also add our comments, and then, I mean – the best starting point is to have something to come forth with. NP: The last I heard that it was about mapping lands – about re-drawing maps of the Game Management Areas. Is this... IC: It might be a component in it but, um, I’m not sure exactly how – what you mean by that. NP: Well, I assume that they would be designating areas where they’re gonna apply a game management plan. We’ll say – example – public hunting lands – game management areas. IC: So the designation of new areas? 18 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 NP: Like the Game Management Plan – would it be all public hunting areas or would it be just two places like Puuwaawaa... and Puuanahulu... IC: I think that’s kinda what we have to look at. Like I don’t know that you could apply the same game management in the Administration’s eyes to all areas – that’s where I kinda keep coming back to. IC: And I have to wrap my head around still. It’s still big. You guys – somebody worked on it a lot earlier than I did – you probably have struggled with this for multiple years and then waited on it – I apologize for that – but I wasn’t involved but I’m involved now... and so I need to kind of wrap my head around that...as far as policy and stuff goes like is it one species is gonna be managed the same way across all land designations – I can’t foresee that... NP: Oh, right... IC: I’m trying to think how best to formulate that... NP: I’m dealing in specific areas – specific goals would apply to specific areas depending on... IC: Right... \[Unclear\] management... NP: I guess my concern is that the lands are dwindling – game hunting areas are dwindling because of fencing continuously taking land grabs more and more of the area and fencing it off, um, so futuristically are the areas you’re gonna be mapping as game management – what they anticipate will be the, you know... IC: I totally understand what you’re saying – I don’t know that I can just answer it without like not being correct... But, it is definitely a discussion – I totally hear what you’re saying... due to designations I’m not sure like all game will be treated equally in all geopolitical boundaries. NP: Well, obviously pig are really hard to manage but so... I guess to take back to the bosses or whatever – the working group of the Game Management Plan is going on – we would like more game management area not reduced less. IC: And so would some of us, yes, myself and Kanalu included, and yes we do fight for that in the “behind the scenes” as you would like to call it is a daunting task ....but I hear what you’re saying and that’s kinda what I need to 19 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 wrap my head around as I read through it and that’s why Iike to – I think you’re working on what goals and stuff are and that’s gonna help me a lot... ....but I hear what you’re saying and that’s kinda what I need to wrap my head around as I read through it and that’s why Iike to – I think you’re working on what goals and stuff are and that’s gonna help me a lot... ....to find out what districts constituents have goals. I know a lot of the complaints and the concerns – I’m not sure how to address them yet. NP: Yes. So there isn’t really much work that’s gone on yet is what you’re saying. IC: No, mostly probably updates like some of the stuff we talked about from the – updating the plan stuff that’s outdated and then I got to read it – I’m sorry – I got to read the draft – the updated drafts. NP: OK. BKK: When does the first draft come out? IC: After Colin and I look at it. That’s hopefully the one that we’re gonna be bringing to you guys is like the... BKK: By the next meeting or? IC: Looking more like September. IC: I don’t know how much work there is – I’d rather say it’d be out further and come with it earlier than the other way around cause – I’m held to my feet to the coals, you know? So I’d rather give myself a little time knowing that it’s probably gonna take a little work and surprise you with an early release but I’d rather go with like September... BKK: Say December and bring it in August. IC: Right. BKK: You’d be a God, right? IC: When am I retiring? No, that’s a bad joke. Sorry... NP: You know, I – on the 2010 and 2015 draft plans that you’re working off of – one of my criticisms of both of those would be – if there’s a lot of history – a lot of presentation of the problems – a lot of information about the game species... But I just want to see first page – itemization of the action plan. 20 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 IC: I agree. I think there’s a lot of good... NP: It’s hazy and fuzzy and you know you got to dig for the action plan, you know, so that would be – if I could – make a request when you’re working on it that the action plan be first and then all the other stuff after. IC: Well, you should put all that history and stuff first... But there is at some point where you start with the meat and that’s where it would be like here’s your goals, your actions... ....and then how you address ‘em and I tried to review these and, you know, some of them are long term things like removing legislative impediments. Those are not a snap of the finger. I mean we fight with that all the time. Even doing a rules change – some of you’ve been involved with rules changes – they’re not quick and I can’t make them any quicker. NP: Right. IC: I can try as much as I want but I’m also – I’m early grey – I’m not that old actually so I do understand – we’d like to get this draft going and work with everybody to try to keep moving it forward but some of these goals are not quick. IC: And I apologize for those of you involved in it – I know at least two of you were – I’ve read the list – and I’m like it’s – I don’t know where it went actually but we’re gonna try to get out. NP: Do you have a date that they’re giving you to – a goal date of getting a draft plan out. IC: September. JO: Who else is looking at the plan? Who are the principals that are looking at this draft? IC: Well, after the request was made – I had the wild people wanted to look at it first and so right now just Kanalu and I are gonna look at it – cause this is gonna be a county... JO: OK... IC: ....starting at a county level, right? And I can see that’s what makes the most sense cause I don’t really foresee – I actually think they all should \[unclear\] if this goes forward it should be county-based not state-based. 21 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 IC: It’s not – each island is so much different. NP: Yes. IC: I mean Oahu cannot treat their game the same way we treat our game so this is gonna be our county GMP. JO: Big Island Game Management Plan... IC: And so after we have a chance to just – I want to see what they wrote, you know, and everything else and then we can add in stuff that we’re trying to fight for or jostle for and just tweak it and then it’ll be like OK so we got this so now let’s try keep it – wheels turning. BKK: Mark – did you have question? MC: Yes. Sorry for just coming and jumping in here. Quick question I had. With this game management you guys been working on – what type of things are you looking at on making these decisions on game management – like what is the criterias you guys been looking at. IC: Well, and this is where it gets confusing with the whole land designation. Some land designations have set criteria for how they’re supposed to be managed. So it’s – that’s where, I think, for us it’s tricky – it’s like when we talk about populating areas with game and stuff and trying to manage game populations – the only place that we have the freedom to totally do that right now is in GMAs and you guys know there’s two cooperatives and one GMA in Puuanahulu. But that’s part of it and part of that conversation for me and I’ve said this to people above me is I think we need to start off with a set of rules for GMAs cause right now we get a lot of push back for not being able to do things we want in GMAs which are in our minds is designed to manage game, right, in – hence in the name. So that’s where we’d want to, you know, do exactly – it’s kinda much like where you’re saying in finding a carrying capacity in these GMAs for a suitable amount of animals that are not gonna be detrimental to the environment but yet provide for a hunting experience. TN: Mark, we’re gonna do a game management plan and then your questions if you could hold up for this because we want your mana’o on our game management plan and that’s why I asked Bronsten to go up there so can you save your question for us because we’re gonna do home rule. MC: Thank you. BKK: Is there any other questions from the commissioners for Ian? 22 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 TN: Thank you, Ian. IC: No problem and not to add too much but anyone feel free to call me on the – when I’m at work or anything like that cause sometimes I come – just late at night I’m here and I know you guys are all here late at night too, but I don’t always have all the answers – sometimes I got to be in my little zone... TN: Please tell Kanalu he never did call me for their removal of wood on that widening of the fire break area... Let him know, this is Teresa... IC: No, you know, people tell me to tell my wife stuff – you gotta call him again – sorry. I’ll forget... BKK: OK. Thank you. Sorry to the three commissioners that get to see the back side of this but I’m sure you’ll be able to hear it, um, so basically what I want to – what this is for is to open up to the public and open up to our commissioners – to 1) ask questions – I’m gonna write ‘em down and then the other thing is the pros and cons of things that are currently in the GMP, also some things that we don’t want to see in the GMP, um, I’m sure there’s a general consensus of some things but it’s good to get it out on the table and we can probably have a better understanding of where everybody sits, basically. So whoever wants to make the first comment... TN: I’d like to make the first comment foremost – I’d like to add Mark to our Game Management Plan input and that he... BKK: Well, everybody is gonna be... TN: He’d be allowed to ask all the questions he wants because I think his mana’o will greatly impact our game management plan so Mark you have the table – ask questions. MC: What type of research have they been doing to consider even rules, regulations – how can I put it... TN: Research and development. BKK: Rules and regs for research and development? MC: Another one is just research and development on the land itself. The animals – native plants – cause I think one of the key parts to this game management would be the animals. NP: So you’re saying an analysis of what the carrying capacity of a land area is in to be in balance with the native species? 23 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 MC: Yes. Like I mentioned earlier – I do have a jig that I will go to land – put this jig down – put this jig down – take my grass samples – I will dry it out to see exactly how much pounds of dry matter I have for how much pounds of animal. So one of my biggest concerns is, you know, a lot of this game management been going on for a while – they’ve been talking about it and they even have the right research done to make a call on eradicating animals or anything like that – so I’m hoping what I’m talking about with this jigs on trying to figure out your dry matter and everything will actually help with the research and development thru this project. TN: So this is Teresa – so what you’re saying is – we have to ask the question what type of science- research needs to be done on the land so we can determine what is the carrying capacity for that area? In other words like you gave us an example 1,000 feral animals on the land but then it it’s a dry season the hunters can come in and manage the numbers of that to dwindle down to maybe 500, but if it’s a wet season there’s a lot of food for them and now the numbers is up to 1,600 and then now the hunters come in and manage the animals back down to a 1,000. MC: To a thousand, yes. Correct. TN: So that kind of carrying – so we’re looking at carrying capacity. BKK: I apologize for my handwriting I can’t speak while I write – so you have anything else there Mark? MC: Well, cause I going be honest – carrying capacity like that is one of the key things to the whole game management. TN: So who will do the management and the oversight of an area to determine, you know, there’s an abundance of number and now the number has to go down is my question – who would be determining that factor? BKK: Ian can you answer that? TN: And this would be on county – is park and recreation be part of this. So who is in charge of the hunting area on county if we’re talking about making home rule on game management plan... ?: No county – all hunting areas is all state... TN: It’s all on state land And private? 24 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 ?: I don’t think county has any tracts big enough... TN: So who’s responsibility in managing the area then – if we’re looking to that state – is it something that we have to request for a hired position? IC: If you’re talking about like a sliding scale to manage game numbers like in like a take – I don’t mean to tell you how to do this but you’re getting into the weeds – you might want to just throw down questions but if you’re asking whose job it is to set limits, basically, it’s the state – it’s our job as the State Wildlife. JO: Would that be NARS? IC: No usually we – well they’d have driven their own limits in their areas. This is where I’m talking about land designation and the tricks there... JO: Yeah MC: To answer that question to my behalf – that’s where entities like my company would come in very, very handy because we do know livestock, we do know vegetation and we have a helicopter to take aerial counts and check out the vegetation from the air. 36.17 TN: Thank you, Mark. So, Ian, so this is where we look at the budget under DLNR to have such a program. IC: That takes counts of animals? TN: Sure,. I mean how are you gonna do game management... IC: We do take counts now. TN: OK. So if you do take counts – then how do we as hunters know that it’s time to bring the numbers down. IC: We don’t cause we don’t have a sliding scale for our ability to control bag limits. MC: Honestly, this is stuff that we all have to work on. TN: I’m confused. IC: This is part of what’s in that question. If you have – if your bag limit for – I’m just gonna use an example – Puuanahulu is two sheep – one goat – or vice versa per day – it’s set until you change the rules. That’s the statute. Until you change the bag limit – the only way... 25 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 IC: ....the only way if there was like a big boost in the population of goats or sheep there to do more control – or more hunting would be a special hunt. That’s the venue. TN: Thank you, Ian. Every time you speak – because this is being written by the secretary – you’ve got to say your name. SM: The rules and regs are done at the Legislature, right? They make the – you gotta go to them for bag limits, hunting seasons and all that, right? IC: I apologize Stanley – I’m not too – I’m a little bit new at this... SM: Rule change... IC: ....forty-two steps was what I was told last time and I don’t know if it’s actually to the ledge – we draft rules changes and it has to go through a bunch of steps and the final steps to be approved by the Board. But it has to go through like the Board of Tourism and back... IC: There are a bunch of steps and I actually have that written somewhere I can forward that to you guys. SM: So basically, one hands on biologist cannot just go and change the bag limit – you gotta get ‘em – until that rules change – until we can change that to make it so that the Department can do it on their own – we gotta live with, yeah, we gotta live with that... IC: That’s correct – that – what said. But we’re working on some stuff like to try to put verbiage in there where we could work that out – right now we use special hunts like if there’s too many or if it’s perceived as too many goats in Puuanahulu or whatever – we just hold more special hunts. That’s the way we do it now. I hate to be on the record – but it’s kind of a loophole – it’s not the direct way to do it – but the direct way if people know is seven years for the last rules change was long process. The only other way is to change the way we change our rules – the statute that lets us change our rules so that we could quicken the process. TN: I’m confused. There’s eradication. IC: Did I say eradication. Yeah, I mean, how does rules for hunter differ from DLNR or doing eradication? Do they... SM: Court order mandate they gotta... 26 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 TN: The court order mandates so... They can eradicate. But for us hunter to control population? IC: I’m not saying it’s perfect, I’m just saying that’s... TN: How can we change that? IC: You have to put that as a question and look into it... BKK: This is one of those 42 steps? TN: How do we shorten the 42 steps... We don’t want to go through the 42 steps but how can we change – if it’s by court order to do eradication – do we have go court order to do lessen the 42 steps? GH: I kind of agree that there is a philosophical huge difference between using game management as a positive source to improve the ecosystem versus the philosophical difference or rules and regulations and laws that focus on eradication and fencing and I do think that that bridge with that divide has to be shortened by some sort of legal intervention as part of this game management plan. I don’t think we’ll ever get there if we don’t address the legal side of things. KU: I’d like to see an EA study done, you know, especially on Mauna Kea... BKK: I think the EA was on the – in the last game management plan that was produced in 2010. But I might be wrong on that. Oh, we can read the big book... MC: I have to say this – mentioned to you – I mentioned about taking animal counts, animal numbers like that and the reply we got was kinda like it’s a joke – who’s gonna take these counts – it’s kinda like not important – what I got off of your response. To make this whole system work that is one of the most important things for game management is looking at the numbers of game – cause if you’re not gonna manage the amount of game and be like who’s gonna count it – and just let ‘em run wild – this will never work. So you gotta, you gotta keep track of numbers – that is one of the most important things – that’s why it’s called game management so you can keep track of everything that’s going on – if not, it will get out of balance and out of whack. BKK: It’s a good discussion but I want to keep this thing moving a little bit more, um, so, is there... 27 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 TN: So we need to list down the importance of the count of animals as part of the management plan. We have to have not only the carrying capacity but we have to have a mandated count of animals. SM: Teresa – that’s what carrying capacity means. TN: No. Carrying capacity means this land can take 1,000. But who’s gonna count the animals. Who’s gonna know that is the amount of animals. SM: That’s what it means – because the carrying capacity they going in and count the animals. TN: Yeah, so, the thing it doesn’t say count the animals – they’re just saying carrying capacity – so I would like a physical count of animals. BKK: How’s about this – I’ll put it in parenthesis? And I’ll collect the count... TN: Yes. Because if you don’t say it directly of what you want and be direct – then they say whatever they want... BKK: Is there anything else we need to add on there? No? SM: I’ve been asked by plenty people what my take on this game management plan is and the only thing that matters is they have to provide and protect – that’s the two words. Provide and protect. That’s all they got to worry about. Everything going fall in place. BKK: I’m gonna put that up there – OK – I’m gonna put it up here. GH: I’d like to also request another thing be added to the list – secondly – a little bit of clarification for procedure-wise on how the plan will move forward and be implemented and who will approve and when. BKK: Grayson the plan is being created by the DLNR and it’s supposed to go and read by the biologist here on Hawaii Island, ah, from there the community gets to read through it and do the draft so... That could go back and forth and then from there DLNR does the final revisions and approves it and then goes to the BLNR for final approval. Did I get that right? IC: The Board has the final, I guess, approval. BKK: Yeah. 28 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 GH: And if – and much like other grants that get and plans that get proposed in government – it would be nice for actual dates or timeframes to be attached to those steps. That’s just my point, if possible. BKK: Thanks, Grayson. All right, is there anybody else? Yes, sir? You can say it from there – I’ll just repeat it. ?: \[Not speaking in mic\] BKK: To summarize that, ah, basically it’s that the court order mandate and doing the game management plan will be difficult to create the process of implementing a GMP because of the court order. TN: Yeah, so, the question is – this is Teresa – is the court order to totally eradicate – is that the court order? \[Unclear\] remove. So they remove it from Mauna Kea and they transplant it somewhere else? ?: \[Not speaking in mic\] TN: Bronson today when we were driving through Humuula – we saw the sheep. I’m pretty sure I saw over 100, so is that land area part of Mauna Kea? AA: But that’s under Hawaiian Homes – that’s totally different rules. Abraham – District 5. TN: It’s totally different rules? AA: Yeah. TN: So that’s private. IC: It’s Department of Hawaiian Homelands – so the court order is for the eradication of sheep – hybrid and Mouflon sheep within the palila critical habitat, which essentially is inside the six foot fence for those of you that hunt up there that it was – is being built. TN: How many acres. IC: I think the total in that fenced – I want to say 60 – I hope I’m not wrong and that includes the science reserve and I don’t know how big that is. SM: Steve – this is Stanley from District 1. We’re not – this game management plan – and I know everybody think it’s for Mauna Kea but we need one plan for the rest of the Island, you know, so... BKK: Right. It’s not Mauna Kea specific – it’s for the entire... 29 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 AA: We are trying to make one game management plan for the whole island not just one specific area and I would like to see, too, that maybe somehow, some way we can actually go back and visit the court system and see how we can possibly change that – that would be lovely, you know, get the game management plan and see how we can go around and maybe write one letter to the Mayor – which, you know, you guys all know how far that probably going go. Like this is... AA: To go back and visit the – even the court system – that would be lovely too. NP: Right, it would... MC: With 3-C go crazy – sorry – jumping in here – with this court order, which I’m aware about too – I’m hoping the research I have done with my animals will actually help reverse that court order cause they have court orders that was placed without the right research done and I’m hoping that our company can help reverse that court order due to our grazing techniques. AA: Basically with your research and with all everybody else’s’ – the public can come here and they complain about all the wild grass and, you know, that’s why I think that there should be one new environmental statement and with the numbers that everybody claiming that the birds are going down where – where’s this new research that should be done, you know, there’s gotta be steps along the way like, eh, what’s going on here, what’s going here – oh, this is not working so we should go back in – try something different because this is not working... Yeah, do one – redo a new study... MC: Basically, like everything else – where the money going come from? Who going pay for ‘em? \[Unclear\] AA: Right. SM: That’s what we going go up against is the State the one gotta put up the money to go fight ‘em and we get all environmentalists in the State so... They not going put up the money... TN: I think with – I want to say – with new evidence that we can possibly find a way to either appeal or bring this back up into the court system. Let’s find a way – let’s work on it – let’s research it. MC: Quick one just to end what we’re talking about right here. With the environmentalists in the State like that – our company is well known to do environmental work like that – so we might have a different outlook on things. 30 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 Cause, like I said, our company is a conservationist, um, company too, so, you know, hopefully they’ll see the difference and hope they can see that there will be a change and cough up whatever they can to help us out. BKK: All right, I’m gonna have to end this discussion for now. MH: Sorry, Chair, just one thing real quick. My suggestion – being a government employee would be to try and figure out ways to put in built-in flexibility so – what I mean by that is because OK bag limits, for example, right? Instead of it going in the rule – maybe in the game management plan it says like at the discretion of the biologist or whatever for that area or something like that – just kind of something that gives the people on the ground a little more wiggle room instead of it being so rigid. Right now it’s so rigid, right, like this is your number, this is always gonna be your number but somehow – I don’t, you know, play with the language a little bit in how to build in flexibility into the plan for the people on the ground, yeah. BKK: Thank you, Malia I’ll write it… I think what also we do need to discuss is some of the other parts that are in here like Puuwaawaa and the other game management areas and the designations for those, so, I guess what we’ll do is we’ll table it for now, um, ah, for the next meeting. Thank you, gentlemen. MC: Thank you guys so much. NEW BUSINESS: A. Kawa Fishing Access BKK: We’re gonna move over to New Business – this is just really an update – so recently there was four fishermen that had been turned away at the Kawa in Kau for fishing and there’s been – they’ve been going back and forth on the reasoning for it but we’re still trying to find out more information so in 7a, i - I am requesting the Public Access, Open Space and Natural Resources Preservation Commission otherwise known as PONC for information regarding the Kawa Management Plan. Kawa does have certain areas that is designated for fishing or for recreation, um, and there’s some areas that are considered sacred grounds and nobody’s able to access those areas. And in 7 a. ii, 2017 Kawa Resources Management Plan – which is down by 3.2.7 is to consider the designation of a community-based subsistence fishing – which is similar to Kaupulehu and that management plan. So my what I’m gonna request, basically, is more information on what the management plan is and how it’s being enacted and there’s gonna be a separate letter to the Department of Parks and Recreation regarding just access. Harry Kim did 31 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 write back to me – the Mayor did write back and he basically gave me a court ruling which is on the table if anybody needs it – I don’t know if I can find it in my papers – it’s this one, yes, but this is basically what Palikapu was fighting for, I believe on Oahu... TN: No, it was here... BKK: It’s here. OK. So this is the civil – the court case of 4 and 590 and so if you want to read through that court case about land access that’s there. So basically, my questions to PONC were the Department of Parks and Recreation would just be – what is the management as far as subsistence fishing and if there are areas that are no go and no fishing –what are they and why aren’t they mapped out and why haven’t the public been notified about it, um, yeah. Is there any questions? TN: I’ll reserve it for the time I give my committee meeting report. COMMITTEE REPORTS BKK: I’m gonna move over to 8 – Committee Reports. OK. Is there any committee reports from any of the commissioners? TN: I researched Kawa and it’s in Kau and they have a non-profit organization and they call themselves Na Mamo o Kawa – public access, open space and Natural Resource Preservation Maintenance stewardship grant dated September 5, 2017. They did a final report – reporting from the period of 9-5- 17 to 6-29-18 and it was submitted to the Hawaii County Parks and Recreation \[Department\]. So if you go online and you pull up Na Mamo o Kawa – you can look it up and the phone call came from fishermen who had fished in that area for 35 years and are now being told they cannot fish there. No, I’ve researched DLNR, I’ve contacted DOCARE and, um, I also looked for County ordinances and there is no rule-regulation saying the people cannot fish there so that’s my dilemma right now and I’m gonna work with Bronsten on this in finding out more information because if they’re telling fishermen they cannot fish there because they’re the stewards of the land and it’s a proposal to be a marine reserve area that they’ve subsistence, preservation – whatever they want to call it – but as of now – as of this date – there are no rules, there are no administrative rules and there is no State rules or laws saying they cannot fish there. Thank you. That’s the end of my report. BKK: Go ahead Abraham. AA: Grayson – since that’s your district do you have an info that you could share with us about it. 32 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 GH: No, I’m not – I apologize – I’m not knowledgeable about the specifics about who owns or manages that property. BKK: Anybody else have any questions? OK. Go ahead and state your name for the record. JMG: My name is Jaerick Medeiros-Garcia. Aloha, thank you guys for your guys service. Awesome. I understand that shoreline fishing, public access – county public access – I manage Pepeekeo so the latest issue we got down there is our not good neighbor Hu Honua, yeah? Just last week they decided that they could ah fence off and move the shoreline parking for the fishermen. They fenced it off – first they put an illegal structure on the shoreline where the fishermen usually fish from and then they put up fence with a gate and they moved the parking area for the shoreline fishermen without any permits, without – matter-of-fact they have a supreme court stoppage – they shouldn’t be working at all down there in Pepeekeo at Hu Honua – so for my community I’m the president of the Pepeekeo Community Association and what I have been doing the past two and half years is our own research resource management and so I do have a fishing association because we’re in a unique situation – majority of our shoreline – Pepeekeo – is within a private community and so I do have a contract with the developer who bought the land from the plantation that allows us to go through a gate that I have a combination lock on it and there’s this private community that allows us to drive along the shoreline – but our management plan there is the fishermen in our association – I think it’s a lot easier when different communities would create fishing associations so that when they go up against people that live on the shoreline – they know that in the deeds it’s stated that it’s not their land in front of their homes – but they must maintain the property that is where the ponds moneys would try and buy, yeah? But it’ll be a lot easier by creating a association and it makes – it sounds a lot more professional when talking to these community members that is not allowing people to fish when they don’t have the right to stop people from fishing, you know, it’s our constitutional right to go and gather and especially if you’ve been doing it for 35 years and then somebody come in from the mainland – buy one house and think just because the ocean is in front of the house the property in front of the home is theirs – it’s not theirs. TN: Na Mamo o Kawa – is made up of community members. JMG: Yeah. TN: And they’re a non-profit organization. But they’re not a fishing association so what you’re saying is that the fishermen should form an association... 33 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 JMG: I’m saying that the fishermen should bet together – form an association and I think that’ll make it a lot easier for them to sit down and talk about how the fishermen has been fishing for 35 years – would go down there and just malama the place after they gather, you know, I mean, that’s what I ended up doing for the community in Pepeekeo is, you know, people – their deed say they got to manage – take care the property in front of their home... BKK: I’m gonna have to pause you for a second there – if you can – I would like to refer all of the information that you have to Teresa – since she has the Traditional, Customary Practices as well as the Fishing – so if it has to do with fishing rights or access – you can work with her on that... TN: All right... BKK: If that’s OK? TN: Yeah, can you contact me Jearick – contact me and we’ll talk about your situation. JMG: Well, I never know this having the problem on the other side of the Island but I know I just feel that it is probably a better way to address people that is leaving our shorelines because these people that is buying the shorelines they coming with plenty money, you know, they coming with lawyers but lawyers, too, they don’t know that it’s county access – you know, the shoreline is county so DLNR really – they only have jurisdiction up to the high tide water mark, other than that – like I tell my fishermen – DLNR they not gonna be coming in our shoreline because you know when I asked them for help – they told me that that’s not their jurisdiction... TN: OK. JMG: So I hold that to their word – and they don’t come there when they like check the coolers and what not on our shoreline – that’s not happening... TN: They don’t have jurisdiction to check coolers. JMG: Well – they – that’s what they like come and o. TN: No, they cannot. The law has not been passed. JMG: But I just wanted to let you guys know that I think it’ll be a better situation for the fishermen around the Island in different districts to form fishing associations. 34 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 BKK: Is there anybody from the Government Relations that have anything – not much going on in the Leg... Um, Public Relations? OK, we have the Shooting Range Working Group? JO: Just a little bit more information – the Mayor has been considering, you know, moving forward in a number of different ways on our possibility of a County shooting range – I think we’re expecting something – decision – middle of July – Malia – I think that was the thing. We have the State DLNR that is willing to push forward again on the Puuanahulu – so that’s a possibility and perhaps there’s a coordination between state and county on that in working out how each would do that. We’re also looking at a possibility up in the Hamakua area – Kapalena – county has some property – I’ve made some inquiries with some folks in the county – I’m expecting some more information we can take a look at – see if those – there might be something suitable there. It was also mentioned that some Parker Ranch lease from the state – bottom of the Saddle Road – Old Saddle Road on the Waimea side might be another possibility so like everything we’ve done in furtherance of shooting ranges these things are taking their time but we are very slowly, hopefully, making progress there. BKK: Thanks, Jim. All right – anything from the Communications? Ah, OK. And then we have the Committee on Mauna Kea information. I didn’t receive anything, um, and then the Committee on Wild Game? And, um, did you have anything Stanley – oh, there’s something between you two unless you guys wanted to wait till the Commissioners’ report – OK. We’ll move over to the Commissioner’s Report – anybody have any commissioner’s report. COMMISIONNERS’ REPORTS BY DISTRICT SM: It was brought to my attention that the gate in Ookala Dairy was closed so I made some inquiries and the gate is closed but it’s not locked and that land is owned by Bishop Estate – there are 50 something acres there – they’re trying to give ‘em to the State for the State to take over, um, DLNR and Department of Ag supposed to be working this out and I guess one don’t want to take over the other or, you know, so... That’s where it’s at now – but the gate is open, I mean, not locked, it’s closed but it’s not locked. BKK: Anybody else have a commissioner’s report? AA: Over the weekend under Pig Hunters of Hawaii we did one trash pick-up with the state with the Department of Forestry, um, we took out a 20 foot – about a 20 feet long trailer – half of that was – so about 10 feet long, about 4 tires high – lowered the tires – the other half of the trailer was loaded with scrap metal – we piled up about six truck loads of trash – of just various scrap metal and trash – had about 20 people showed up and then, of course, DOFAW showed up which was pretty – it was just awesome and... 35 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 BKK: That’s great. AA: Yeah, we split ‘em up into probably three different teams. One team went into the some of the forest roads – we had one team walking down Stainback Highway and then, ah, the other teams was just catching the majority of the big dumping areas. So that was pretty awesome – that was a pretty good thing. BKK: Awesome... NP: I had reported this incident – it was to take place before it happened to three different sources of media – not a single one got back – so I’m really disappointed in the media. To me this was a really big – great story – hunters cleaning up roadside garbage, you know, organizing this kind of thing and the media wouldn’t even come to report about it. I gave them plenty time. JO: One of the things I’ve learned about the media over the years – basically, you write story for them – take the pictures for them and bring it to them and that’s about the only way... NP: It would help if they would return a phone call... JO: They won’t... BKK: Well, thank you guys for that. TN: Next time you have an event like that – contact me please and I’ll make sure the media gets it. It’s only because my sister is in media. AA: OK. TN: And she is from Paauilo. AA: Another quick one, um, since – Teresa did you – I guess Keiki o ka Aina they did some events – I think was like last weekend – this is a Keiki program for kids on the Kona side that they did a fishing tournament – they also did a trash pick-up to, I think, around the area before the event. The parents did the trash pick-up. TN: Is that the one sponsored by Umeke’s? AA: Yes. TN: They didn’t contact me after I called them. 36 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 AA: Oh, but they had a pretty big turn out on that Keiki o ka Aina event – not last weekend but the prior weekend before the – which is pretty. And then they also doing throw net training, \[unclear\] with the keiki, they get a bunch of probably like 5 volunteers that go out with the kids and teach ‘em how for throw net and stuff like that so they get one pretty good program out there in Kona right now, the, yeah, sponsored by Umeke’s. BKK: I think I have the flier – I can probably share that with everybody. Anybody else have a commissioner’s report. All right. OK. Just a couple of announcements. Our next meeting Tuesday, July 30, 2019. Anybody have any announcements? I have one – I’m just gonna put this in the record – Council Member Chung – I bumped into him and he just said, “Oh, wait, I have something for you.” And he gave me this – it was a picture of a pig with the head completely cut off and he said this is the fourth one up in Piihonua – so I actually don’t know what to do with this, unless somebody goes up there and just stays there and sees what happens. So, I guess I’ll just put this in for the record and if I hear anything I’ll... ?: Well, usually something like – it depends what road like a state road or a county road... BKK: I believe it’s county road... ?: Then the county guys would go in there and pick it up... TN: Is that something that could be news? BKK: I don’t thinks so. TN: If someone would do a write up with it? It’s a picture that we can do a write up and say who’s doing this? BKK: I don’t know if that would be a good idea, but... TN: Could you talk to media? Something we could do. BKK: We’ll look into it... TN: You know, there is pet’s corner, right? 37 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – June 25, 2019 ADJOURNMENT BKK: Teresa Nakama moved to adjourn the meeting at 8:30pm. Seconded by Jim O’Keefe. Motioned carried unanimously by voice vote. Meeting Adjourned. Respectfully submitted by: Donna Urban-Higuchi Secretary ATTEST: Bronsten “Kalei” Kossow, Chairperson 38