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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2005-03-04 Planning Commission Minutes PLANNING COMMISSION COUNTY OF HAWAI€I MINUTES/HEARING TRANSCRIPT MARCH 4, 2005 A regularly advertised hearing on the application of HAWAIIAN ISLAND DEVELOPMENT was called to order at 9:30 am. in the Pahala Community Center, CO., INC. (REZ 04-034) 96-1149 Kamani Street, Pahala, Ka'u, Hawai€i, with Second Vice-Chairman C. Kimo Alameda presiding. PRESENT:C. Kimo AlamedaABSENT & EXCUSED:Fred Galdones William GrahamEarl Fujikawa Jeffrey McCallHannah Springer ReneSiracusa Francis Smith Ivan Torigoe, Deputy Corporation Counsel Christopher Yuen, Planning Director Norman Hayashi, Planning Program Manager Phyllis Fujimoto, Staff Planner Jeff Darrow, Staff Planner And approximately 90 people from the public in attendance APPLICANT: HAWAIIAN ISLAND DEVELOPMENT CO., INC. (REZ 04-034) Change of Zone for approximately 2,048.05 acres of land from an Agricultural 20-acre (A-20a) district to an Agricultural Project District. The nearest portion of the property is located approximately 1 mile northwest of Pahala Village and includes the former Higashi and Middle Moaula Camps, Mohokea, Moaula, Kopu and Makaka, Ka'u, Hawai€i, TMK: 9-6-3:2 & 22; 9-6-5:10, 12, 13, 15 & 56; and 9-6-6:5, 6, 7 & 8. ALAMEDA:Good morning. Would the Hawai€i County Planning Commission now come to order. Good morning, good morning, again. Okay, I want to thank everybody for coming today. My name is Kimo Alameda. Ill be the Chairperson for today, and I wanted to do some quick introductions before we start. On my right, Commissioner Smith, Commissioner McCall, Commissioner Siracusa, Commissioner Graham, our Corp. Counsel Ivan Torigoe and our Director Chris Yuen. Id like to introduce our staff. On the right there, Norman Hayashi, Jeff Darrow, Sharon Nomura, we have Phyllis Fujimoto. Okay. Before we start, Id like to hold all administrative matters till the end of our meeting today. Also, if there is anyone who would like to testify, please fill out the sign-in sheet and submit it to staff. Also, if they have any written testimony to any of, this particular agenda item, please give that to staff as well if we havent received it already. And I guess Phyllis will be giving you that, so we can put you on our testimony sheet. Okay, agenda item for today, we have one agenda item for today. Applicant: Hawaiian Island Development Incorporated, its a Rezoning 04-034, Change of Zone for approximately 2,048.05 acres of land from an Agricultural 20-acre (A-20a) district to an Agricultural Project District. The nearest portion of the property is located approximately 1 mile northwest of Pahala Village and includes the former Higashi and Middle Moaula, Moaula Camps, Moula. HAYASHI:Moaula. ALAMEDA:Moaula, Kopu and Makaka, Ka'u, Hawai€i. Okay, staff? HAYASHI:Thank you, Mr. Chair. Good morning. If I may direct your attention to the maps on the ping pong ball board, the subject property is indicated where the red dot is. Its outlined in yellow. Pahala Village is situated here and, in this yellow shaded area. We are currently located at, the meeting place is at this location here. This is the Hawai€i Belt Road that leadstowardNaalehu;andthiswouldbetheHilodirection.Thecolorsonthemapindicatethe various zoning districts. The area in dark green, including the subject property, is currently zoned Agricultural 20 - acre. We also have some areas in Pahala which are zoned for single family residential. Those are those yellow-shaded areas. We have some industrial areas, which is the old former Sugar Cane Mill processing facility, and these are in the gray-shaded areas. We also have an area thats in brown which is the multiple-residential zoned areas. This particular area here is an agricultural project district that was granted last year to the Hester Farming and that constitute, comprises of approximately 170 acres. I have various maps on the board. The applicant is proposing to develop an agricultural project district consisting of approximately 188 lots; and these lots would range from 5 acres to 50 acres in size. So there will be various sized lots within this particular area. This is their proposed subdivision layout. I must warn you that this is just preliminary at this time and more detailed plans will be finalized once the rezoning is approved or should the rezoning be approved. The, according to the applicant, basically, what they intend to do is limit the lots for agricultural purposes and also to allow for only one single family dwelling on the property. The cost of the lots at this point in time is undetermined. It will be based on what the infrastructure cost would be for the total development. And basically the reason for the agricultural project district are to seek for deviations from some of the Zoning and Subdivision Code requirements. And one of them would be water. There are currently no water system, nor will there be a municipal water system or overall public water, private water system for this particular area. Initially the applicant will be providing approximately 2,000 gallon tanks per lot; and if the applicant needed more water then they would have to provide their own system, water system. Another reason for the request would be to deviate from some of the roadway requirements as spelled out in the Subdivision Code. Basically, within the project area except for a couple of roads, which would be within, constructed with 20-foot to 24-foot wide pavement, most of the lots would be, interior lots would be 16,000 square feet and paved with, at a width of 16,000 square feet, excuse me, 16 feet. Some of these will also be gravel roads, also at a width of 16 feet. Utilities also are not available to this particular area. These include the electrical and telephone services. 2 The,according to the applicant, the initial cost of the infrastructure will be approximately $800,000 to $1,000,000. Thats based on their current estimate for the development of this particular project. The General Plan that was recently, Im sorry, the General Plan that was recently adopted designates these areas into two agricultural categories, important agricultural land and extensive agricultural land. As far as the subject property, portions of the property are, is currently used for agricultural purposes. And Ill refer to this particular map. Again, as a matter of orientation, this would be the Old Hawai€i Belt Road, this is Pahala Village. And access to the property would be from the old, main, the Main Cane Haul Road, as its referred to; and itll go in this particular direction. The property is in this general configuration. If you look at this map, there are some areas that are cleared, these areas are basically in active agricultural use. This general area is in coffee. We also have some areas to the, to the, that would be northeast, and these particular areas are also usedforactiveagriculturalpurposes.Someofthoselandsarealsoincoffee. Therearecurrentlylicensesthatweregrantedtoindividualsfarmingtheselandsbythecurrent landowner. These licenses, there are approximately 51, there are 51 licenses for agricultural purposes, totaling approximately 620 plus or minus acres. These licenses include 45 licenses for coffee growing, which approximate 270 acres. Theres also four licenses for pasturage, totaling 321 acres, and also two licenses for papaya growing approximately 15 acres. The remaining area is basically vacant. These lands were formerly used for sugar cane production back when the plantation was in operation. Surrounding land, surrounding lands include eucalyptus, some macadamia nuts, and, also vacant lands. We have received several communications from the members of the public. Those that we have received include a letter from Councilman Bob Jacobson who, I guess, is the Councilman for this area who opposes the request. We also have a letter from Willie Rice, Forest Solutions, Inc., their concern is with regard to the impact on their eucalyptus farm in the surrounding, in the general vicinity. We also received correspondence from Senator Lorraine Inouye who supports this project; from John Cross, Vice President of C. Brewer Property, who basically explained the tenant relationship to this particular property. Another letter, and I wont read these letters. Some of them will be coming up to testify on their own behalf. The next letter is from Franco Longakit who supports of this project. We also have a letter from Alan Takemoto, who is the executive director of the Hawai€i Farm Bureau Federation, who supports the project. We also have a letter from Mr. Howard Yamasaki, President of the Big Island Farm Bureau, who also supports this particular project. We also received a letter from John Repol -. PUBLIC:Repolgle. HAYASHI:Repolge -. REPOLGLE:Repolgle. HAYASHI;Repolgle expressing some of the concerns with regard to the particular project; and I believe hell be coming up to testify. 3 The Planning Director is recommending approval of this particular request with numerous conditions. And one of the conditions would be to limit the maximum number of size lots to 175 as noted in the background report and recommendation that was provided to you. Just as a information, the County Code states that once the Planning Commission receives the application, the Planning Commission has 90 days in which to make a decision on the application. If no decision is made within that period of time, then it will be going up to the Planning, County Council for appropriate action. So seeing that there are only five members here today, I just wanted to point that out to you that you have 90 days from today in which to take action on this particular request. Are there any questions at this time? ALAMEDA:CommissionerSiracusa? SIRACUSA:Onpage7,Inoticedthattherewas-. NOMURA:Microphone-. SIRACUSA:Oh,sorry.Onpage7,Inoticedthattherewasreferencetoonesingle family dwelling or one farm dwelling per lot; and then theres a definition of a farm dwelling. Does this mean that not all the houses that are constructed on these parcels will have to be related to agricultural use? HAYASHI:Well, since the property is within the State Land Use Agricultural District, it would have to be a farm dwelling by definition. SIRACUSA:Then why is it worded, why doesnt it just say one farm dwelling? Why is it, its confusing for it to, in several places it refers to a single family dwelling as opposed to a farm dwelling. HAYASHI:Are you talking about -? SIRACUSA:Page, page 7. HAYASHI:Page 7 of the -? There are several page sevens. SIRACUSA:Several page sevens. Wait a second. Background report, is that in the background report? No, not that page 7. HAYASHI:Well, basically, what were doing is providing you information on what the agricultural project district -. SIRACUSA:Okay, I found it. HAYASHI:Code requirement is. 4 SIRACUSA:I found it, Norman. HAYASHI:Yes? SIRACUSA:Its on the, the application, the background and County Environmental Report, Agricultural Project District application. Page 7, its 5-A, other regulations. HAYASHI:Yeah, basically, what the applicant has done was provide this information thats in the County Code that specifically states what the requirements are for an Agricultural Project District. Okay. But the law says that, the State Land Use Law says that within the State Land Use Agricultural District it has to be a farm dwelling. So it would have to be constructed as a, under the definition of a farm dwelling. SIRACUSAThen I would like to see that clarified by the term single family dwelling deleted,sothatweknowthatweretalkingfarmdwellingshereandnotgentlemanfarmertype of -. HAYASHI:Yeah, I dont believe we, let me refer to the conditions -. SIRACUSA:€Cause otherwise, otherwise I think were opening up a potential can of worms. YUEN:Thats stated in page 2 of the conditions on H, at the top of page 2. It says that ‚Only one farm dwelling shall be permitted on each proposed lot.ƒ HAYASHI:Oh, yeah, as the Director indicated on page 2 of the Planning Directors or staffs recommendation on the top, its (2), it says ‚Only one farm dwelling will be permitted on each proposed lot.ƒ So I think that would address your concern, Commissioner Siracusa. ALAMEDA:Commissioner Siracusa? SIRACUSA:Thank you. ALAMENDA:Okay, other questions, staff, I mean, for staff, Commissioners? SIRACUSA:Is the applicant going to come up? ALAMEDA:Yes. SIRACUSA:All right, Ill wait. ALAMEDA:Will the applicant or representative please come forward? LEONARD:Mr. Chairman, my name is James Leonard, Im principal with the planning firm of PBR Hawaii representing Hawaiian Island Development; and to my right here is Peter Savio, president of Hawaiian Island Development. And were open to any questions that you might have. 5 ALAMEDA:I need to swear you both in at this time. Will you both raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth on this matter now before the Hawai€i Planning Commission? LEONARD:I do. SAVIO:I do. ALAMEDA:Thank you. Did you get a chance to review the Background Report? SAVIO:We did. ALAMEDA:And the conditions? LEONARD:WevereviewedtheBackgroundReport,andtheRecommendationsfrom the Planning Department, and the conditions; and we find the conditions acceptable with a few suggested changes to those conditions. Weve submitted a copy of that. I have additional copies of those recommended changes. ALAMEDA:Okay. LEONARD:Specifically to, speaking to Condition M related to the improvements to the Main Cane Haul Road, we wanted to point out that there is an agreement being executed between C. Brewer Company and Kamehameha Schools. Its referred to as the Reciprocal Grants of Easement Agreements, or what we refer to as Reciprocal Easement Agreement; and that spells out the process and the agreement between the two parties in terms of responsibilities for maintaining that road and how it is to be shared between the parties using that road. And so we just wanted to make reference to that both in terms of maintaining the road but also in reference to any of the related infrastructure, such as the bridges at Hionamoa or Moaula Gulch. So were just including that reference in that, and well provide a copy. We need to get clearance from C. Brewer and Kamehameha Schools before issuing it, but it hasnt been executed as yet, hadnt gotten the Boards approval as yet, and so we were waiting for that to forward that on to the Planning Department. But we should be able to get you a draft of that. On, Condition N has to do with access to the Roman Catholic Church property; and were agreeable to that. But there is also a road that connects to the old Mamalahoa Highway or the, whats called a government road that goes to the bottom of the property, makai side of the property; and it does need some grading in there to reestablish that road connection. But if thats established wed like that to be also, that would provide an alternate connection through the property site to the Catholic Churchs property. I would add to that, if its agreeable, that we could put in additional language related to that road, that road would, an alternate access, meeting the approval of the Planning Director and the Chief Engineer, or the Director of the Department of Public Works, is provided to a county road. As a caveat, adding that on to there, that added language. In Condition S, were just enumerating all the various components that are part of the cost of the project. This is a cost plus project, and we wanted just to be very clear about what those items are. It includes also the escrow and normal closing costs and commissions, the cost to develop 6 andmaintain the property, thats the cost to do any improvements up through this point, and maintain the property up to the point of where the property is sold over to the buyers, and taxes, and then the last being the maximum developer net profit, not to exceed 2 percent of items. And it should read ‚items (1) through (6) above,ƒ thats a typo in the language that I provided. Condition X, just a correction in reference to the site map, the crossing at Moaula Gulch is Road ‚F,ƒ and just to make that correction there. And then to add an additional condition, and I refer to it as Condition X-1, just so that we can keep to the same lettering of the other conditions, but basically saying that these improvements, and there are quite a few of them that are recommended as part of the conditions of approval, that theyre being very specific about the level of improvements that are required as part of this subdivision approval, and that those improvements can be bonded as part of the Final Subdivision Approval in order get final Subdivision Approval. Because part of putting in that, thoseimprovementsrequirestheincomethatcomesbackthroughthesaleoftheproperty.Soin order to effect that, wed like to include this additional language that allows for bonding the infrastructural, infrastructural improvements that are delineated in those relevant conditions, and making that an additional condition of approval. And thats the, thats the only additions, or revisions that we would ask for as a part of the recommended conditions. Otherwise, were in full agreement with the recommended conditions from the Planning Director. ALAMEDA:Okay, just for, thank you. For information for the public, although the Planning Director has approved this request, it comes with a lot of conditions. So what youre hearing right now is us kind of going over the conditions that will make this approval okay. I wanted to ask our Planning Director if youd be okay to respond or -. YUEN:Yes. ALAMEDA:Thank you. YUEN:Yeah, Id be happy to respond. This is a major, if this goes through, this is a major rezoning, its a major change to the area. So one of the biggest issues is that there be safe convenient access to all the properties in, for the long-term. So thats why there are a number of specific conditions for improvements. Because as it stands now, the roads are not adequate and the drainage within the property is not adequate to put potentially a 175 families out there who, because you have to look ahead and think that theres a possibility that each lot will eventually be occupied with a home. That may not happen, but its something that you have to plan for. So getting to specifics, on, Condition M has to deal, deals with maintenance of the roadways and the formation of an association to do that. Its important that there be some entity thats responsible for maintaining the extent of the private roads in the area. One of these major roads, the Main Cane Haul Road is shared with other users. So the condition stated that the community association that has this project district would have responsibility over that with the other users. Now they want to have a specific condition in here. The applicant is 7 askingthat this refers specifically to this reciprocal easement agreement that has been, I understand, agreed in principle but not signed between C. Brewer and Kamehameha Schools. That, that being the case and being that I havent seen that agreement, I cant recommend that we change this language to what theyre requesting until weve reviewed, until we have reviewed that agreement, that there be that -. Its possible that we were to agree to it certainly if we saw it. But I dont have it, and so I cant recommend that we change the wording that is in, proposed by us right now to what they are suggesting being the alternate wording. Turning to Condition N, the project district includes an area, I think its 185 acres thats currently owned by the Roman Catholic Church and it sits, its mauka of the Main Cane Haul Road, and it sits right in the middle of the area there. The Roman Catholic Church property at the present time does not have an easement over the Main Cane Haul Road crossing the Bishop Estate property. So we cant go ahead with having more lots created in there or allow that to be subdivided until there is an accessway out of the main, out of the, until there is a good access in andoutofthat,ofthatproperty.SothatswhytherewasConditionNinherethatsaidthe property couldnt be subdivided until there was an easement to the Main Cane Haul Road. Theres, there is a possible way, another way to get out of the property. If you look to the lower part, the tail end there of the property, the very bottom part there, yes, if you, there is a County road that extends to the bottom of that property there. The cane roads though within the parcel dont actually reach that County Road. I cant agree that, I, we can agree that Condition N with the, as theyve written it, with the provision that any other connection has to meet with the approval of the Planning Director in consultation with the Department of Public Works. And the reason is that as it stands now Im not sure that that is a workable connection, that, that you can feasibly build a road that would provide decent access into the area using, using that connection. I havent, I havent examined it myself. The Condition S has to do with the sales price of the lots; and this is an important feature of the proposal. And one of the reasons for the favorable recommendation is there is this land to the people aspect of this proposal that the, that the land is being, would be sold essentially at the developers cost plus the cost of improvements that have to be made, plus a 2 percent profit. I agree with their rewording of Condition S because it, it just more specifies what the costs, what costs are included. And some of these, these are fair costs to include. Escrow and closing costs and commissions are fair costs. Cost to develop and maintain the property, not including developers overhead, thats a fair cost in that aside from just the construction cost of the infrastructure, there will be on-going maintenance cost on the property in the interim between approval and sale to people. And taxes is a legitimate cost to add in. Had they not put this in, I would have considered it as part of the cost covered under Item No. 3. But if they want, I can understand why they would want more, more specific breakdown of the allowable costs. The change of Condition X is, thats okay. I think this came from, the Road B should be, the way he said ‚Bƒ it should be ‚F.ƒ And ‚B, what happens is that Road B turns into Road F, and this relates to the site plan. But the crossing of Moaula Gulch which is a big, big gulch and has to be safely crossed, that takes place on Road F, but after, after Road B changes to Road F on their map. And I know the public doesnt know what, doesnt know these roads by these names. These are labels given to these roads on the site plan. On the site plan that they have, what weve been talking about is the Main Cane Haul road is Road A. Road B is a big paved road that leads mauka from the Main Cane Haul Road and goes up to Moaula Gulch, and theres a ford 8 thatcrosses and a number of people have their coffee farms in that area; and Mr. Leonard is pointing that out on the map here. Why dont you point out, just on the map here, point out Road A, the Main Cane Haul Road for the Commissioners. Yes. And that road, that road leads into Pahala on the right-hand side, and it continues on and goes actually to Naalehu on the left-hand side. Some people know this as Kalaiki Road. Road B goes mauka from Road A and crosses Moaula Gulch right about where Mr. Leonard is pointing right now. And then the way theyve labeled it on the map, their main change is to Road F; and thats the reason for this change here on Condition X. Condition X-1 -. Okay, Condition, Condition X-1 is actually a standard item. Generally if you have a rezoning that leads to a subdivision or you have a subdivision, part of the subdivision is that you have to make these improvements in order to get to the point where you can, you can actually sell the lots to people; thats called Final Subdivision Approval. That, that point, and the reasonisthattheCounty,ofcourse,doesntwantpeoplegetting,buyinglotsinsubdivisions where the roads and other improvements have not been put in and theres no guarantee that they will be put in. As a standard matter the subdivider can either build the improvements or bond them, and a bond is posting of security that the improvements will be done. So this, to put this in the ordinance would be, is fine; and Im okay with that. We would have to look at the actual wording of this. We have a standard wording for the condition. Id have, I just have to make sure that this worded as the same as the standard condition that we have like this. ALAMEDA:Thank you. Any response? LEONARD:No, were in full agreement and, in terms of that additional language for Condition N in terms of that road meeting the approval of the Planning Director in consultation with the Department of Public Works. So with those changes, were in full agreement with the, with the recommended conditions. If its appropriate, at this time, wed like to give you a little bit of background if we could about the process that has been followed in terms of getting to what has been presented to you, if, if it meets your pleasure. ALAMEDA:Sure. LEONARD: And Id like to turn it over to Peter Savio who can give you some background on, on the work that theyve been doing with the community. ALAMEDA:Mr. Savio. SAVIO:Thank you. Again, just so everybody understands, when I came to Pahala, its probably about three years ago, and I came what amounts to a blank sheet of paper and asked the community what they wanted. This design that you are deciding on today was actually decided by the community. 9 PUBLIC:Yes. SAVIO:This is not a developer-based type project. My development history is one of doing affordable housing, providing below market opportunities for people to get into home ownership, etc. We basically had probably close to 15 to 20 community meetings, inviting the farmers that are on the land as well as all of the community of Pahala. We also sent memos out to Ka€u, everyone that lived here, inviting them to come to the meetings and things. So we had a pretty broad-based support for this. Its important to remember its a cost plus subdivision. So as you require additional improvements, it increases the costs; and, of course, the cost gets passed on to the buyer. Its an unusual project because normally the developer benefits from these types of exemptions. In this case, the community benefits. The developer actually earns less money. The more requirements you have, the more it costs, the more I make. The less it costs, the less I make. So its sort of a reversed developer-type situation. I think the important thing here is this is a project that I believe will benefit the community. Its a project that started withtheideaofsavingthe40to50farmersthatwerethereandgivingthemarighttoown.We were actually approached by a representative of C. Brewer and asked if we would come out and take our program from Oahu and bring it to the Big Island and see if we could do a cost plus development. I am the only developer in Hawai€i who does cost plus developments. I earn a very small fee, I get a lot of satisfaction, but I dont make a lot of money doing this. I make my money on my market projects, again, mostly on Oahu and from my real estate company. But I support this project, I think the community supports this project. And Im hoping this Board will also agree that there is a benefit to the people of Pahala and Ka€u. Thank you. PUBLIC:You better believe it. LEONARD:Id like to add to that, that the proposal that was presented with the application is really trying to find that balance of meeting the needs in terms of providing adequate and safe access to these lots and addressing the critical infrastructure needs without putting an undue burden to the potential owners. And the size and configuration of this project is really relative to the distribution of those farm lots and having the number of lots that are part of this project helps in distributing that cost out to a greater number of potential buyers. And so it helps make it more feasible to those, especially those original 40 to 50 people who have licenses to farm on the land right now. So the configuration that you have right there, and the size of the lots, the number of lots, all of that is integral to the overall proposal. Were open to any questions that you might have. ALAMEDA:Commissioners, any questions for the applicant? Commissioner Graham? GRAHAM:Question for Mr. Savio. Excuse me if theres a sort of skeptical undertone to my question here, but just to let you know what Im thinking -. You all speak of this as a cost plus project; and I know Mr. Yuen was saying that Condition S which relates to the cost of the project was a big factor in his decision. My sense is that if we look at three parties, you the developer, and the County, and the eventual purchasers, my sense is that youre the one whos going to be making the cost decisions. In other words, is it not you who decides where the money needs to be spent as long as it adheres to these basic things? Is it not you who decides who it gets paid to, like who you chose to do the 10 work? And is it not you who decides and contracts for how much youre going to pay? And does the County or eventual purchasers have any say whatsoever ahead of time as to how you spend this money? SAVIO:The people all have all the say. It has been agreed all along that well put the properties out to bid, the bids will be made known, they have the right to check the books, the audit. I think the -. GRAHAM:You put the properties out to bid? SAVIO:The proper -, no the properties, the people that are buying have the right to decide how the funds is -. NOMURA:Microphone, please. SAVIO:Im sorry. Is it on? Okay. We have a loud voice anyway. Basically, Im thedeveloper,someonehastoberesponsible,someonehastomakethedecisions.Allofthe improvements will be put out to bid, three bids will be obtained, we will acknowledge those three bids to the community. Well discuss the advantages and disadvantages. Well continue the process as we have all along. Its community based. My Board of Directors is the community. The company thats doing the development is a single entity corporation. It holds no assets, but these assets. The books will be available to audit. Youll notice no developer overhead is charged. I dont charge my salary, I dont charge for my secretary, I dont charge for all the other items. We only charge direct cost, based on outside third parties. So were going to be paying, you know, if we have to pay to pave the road and its $1,000,000, thats the expense. If we have to pay $400,000 to repair bridges, thats an expense. But nowhere in there is there anything going to me other than 2 percent of whatever it is. And, again, I have told the community and the County has put in the requirement that they can audit the books, they can look at the records. Its, I understand the skepticism. In all of the projects that I do, even on Oahu, at first people could not understand why I do what I do because I could make a lot more money. I have given away over $120,000,0000 on Oahu at below market prices to first-time home buyers. Thats something I believe in, thats something Ive always done. I have a market development company that also does projects and actually makes a lot more money, but this is my way of giving back to the community. Im a local boy born in Hilo, raised on Oahu, and this is what I do. I have more fun with these projects but dont make a lot of money. But, you know, in life sometimes having more fun is more important. ALAMEDA:Commissioner Alameda. GRAHAM:So in specific response to what I asked then these things that youre going to expend money on like fixing the bridges and all these youre talking about, before you spend those monies or commit those monies, youre going to consult with the community about the bids that you receive on them and the community -? SAVIO:I have no problem with that, none at all. 11 GRAHAM:But I didnt read that in here. That is part of what youre going to do though? SAVIO:Yeah. This is a community-based project. They are my board of directors. They are telling me what they want. I am simply working for them in implementing the plans that are required. Once the County agrees to whatever the requirements are its simply a question of getting the bids, deciding which one to accept, and, you know, whether its the lowest or second lowest, I mean, I dont know yet. But well decide who gets the bid, and then we implement it. There is no, theres nothing added to the cost for the bids over and above what Im entitled. Theres not another fee, theres no money, theres nothing hidden. Its a completely, a glass ball. We operate in a glass ball. The community is involved in all the decisions and has been in all the decisions. Every decision that has been made up to who gets to buy the lots was decided by the community. They gave me a pecking order that we have to follow. Theyre involved in all of the decisions. GRAHAM:Thank you. ALAMEDA:Commissioner Siracusa? SIRACUSA:Yeah. I noticed that there was a map in the materials that we got that showedthe,howthelotsweregoingtobelaidoutandwherethereweregoingtobeflaglotsso that otherwise landlocked properties could be accessed. But I also read that a lot of that is going to be flexible, how many 5-acrelots, how many ten-, etc. and where theyre going to be. So it seems like were having to play on flexibility with, well, then you tell me, €cause, one of the -. What Im leading to is the people who have licenses now that are farming I understand that they will get the first dips; and so will they be applying for the lots theyre farming now? I assume -. SAVIO:Theyre already are. SIRACUSA:That they have, they have already? SAVIO:Yes. SIRACUSA:Okay. I assume that since theyve got already a lot of sweat equity into those lots -. SAVIO:Correct. SIRACUSA:That they would want to continue with that. SAVIO:Yeah, the pecking order requires that the lots, first, we offer to the lessee on the property. And then family or friends of his, or family, I think, direct family have the right to buy adjoining parcels, etc. We actually have gone through the pecking order. We were issued a preliminary public report which allowed us to go market and reserve the properties. And the majority of the people in Pahala have already reserved the property they want; and they came in and they picked the lots, we went through the pecking order. Basically all the lots were spoken to; and I believe all of them are within, we never got passed Ka€u as we went through the pecking order. After Ka€u, I think, came residents of the Big Island and after that came residents 12 of Hawai€i; and thats where it stopped. But we only got to the licensees. There were two or three classifications for licensees, then there were two three classifications for Pahala, if you live there now or if you lived there before 1950 or after, whatever it was; and then the next classification was Ka€u. When we got to Ka€u, we actually had reserved all the lots. And I think there were something like 70 people still on the back-up list. SIRACUSA:So all the lots are now spoken for? SAVIO:I dont want to say all because a couple may have cancelled; but, technically -. SIRACUSA:Okay. SAVIO:Yes, 99 percent of those lots are actually specified to individual buyers, potentialbuyers. SIRACUSA:Okay.Imwondering,ImafarmerandsoIliveinanareawhereIget 200 inches of rain; and Im real lucky that way. And I understand you guys here in Ka€u have had a drought for the last ten years. And I assume that your soils are just as porous as my soils are and, you know, it comes down, it goes out very quickly. Im wondering how viable a 5-acre lot is in terms of agricultural production if you have to pay for roads, and maintaining the bridges over the gulches, if you have to -. Obviously, although you may have a 2,000 gallon water tank, a 2,000 gallon water tank goes a lot farther on a 5-acre parcel than it goes on a 20-acre parcel. But, also, if you dont have the water coming out of sky, youre going to have to truck that water in. So when you start looking at all of those costs and how far away these farms are from any major markets of produce, Im wondering how viable this actually would be for a 5-acre parcel or if it would really take more than 5 acres in order to make it viable as for agricultural production. SAVIO:The reason the 5 acres came into play is most of the existing farmers own 5-acre licenses; and so they were trying to preserve what they already planted in that. In terms of water, Im not a farmer so I apologize. I really dont know -. SIRACUSA:You dont have to apologize for that. SAVIO:But if you look at the map, to the left side of the map, that valley is full of coffee farmers that are growing coffee right now and doing quite well. The far right side of the map, theres another area where there are farmers growing coffee, and they seem to be doing all right with the rainfall. At the bottom of the map, the Old Road A, there is one farmer who has planted probably a 5-acre parcel there and, again, I believe hes using only rainfall, €cause there is no County water per se. I might also mention that the water tanks that were referring to were not intended for any use other than the fact that the condominium statute requires a man-made improvement. So I could have built a shed, I could have built a water tank, I could have built a mail box. So the 2,000- gallon water tank was simply there to facilitate the State requirement in a condominium. We could have put in bigger tanks, but then itd cost more money. The community decided theyd rather put in a small tank because a lot of them are not going to build homes right away and dont 13 really need it. But the condominium statute requires a water tank or a man-made improvement to qualify as a condominium. So our man-made improvement was going to be a water tank. SIRACUSA:Well -. ALAMEDA:Commissioner Siracusa. SIRACUSA:Okay. Weve got some new agricultural tax laws coming up, right, or they passed already, Ivan, about a minimum that a farmer has to make in order to qualify for the Ag exemption? I believe its $2,000 a year. Im just wondering if these farmers will be able to -? SAVIO:Im pretty sure they did the math. Its $2,000 a year they can earn. I might add, one more thing we talked about is the cost. And when we talked about the bridges, the bridges, I believe, are not on our property. Theyre actually on the Bishop Estate property, buttheyaretheaccesspoint,well,oneoftheaccesspointsforourproperty.Andourpositionis we are willing to pay our fair share to maintain those bridges. We are not the only ones using the road. This is a 30-mile road that runs, you know, all the way to Naalehu. So everyone along that roadway will be paying their fair share, everyone who uses it should be paying their fair share. I think thats a very important concept because to require our 175 farmers to be responsible 100 percent for the bridges, or 100 percent for the access roads, or any road outside of the project would not be reasonable. Thats why we are very concerned that it be very clear that we will pay our fair share for the maintenance of the roads and that, or we have the alternate of providing other access to a County road, rather than using the existing easement. ALAMEDA:Other questions, Commissioners? MCCALL:Yeah. Mr. Savio, my question or concern is primarily about water. For farmers dryland farming is, certainly is an option. But when were talking about putting 175 people up there, 175 homes up there, I think thats another matter. And I have, I think that theres a opportunity at this point -. You know, catchment, I, is, to me, is not a very good option in a dry area like Ka€u. I think theres an opportunity at this point -. You do have, you mentioned that you do have access to 25 percent share of the Moaula Tunnel, but that is, thats not adequate for, you know, for what we have here. I mean, my concern is, is to have 175 landowners in a situation such as Ocean View where everybody is hauling water. Thats going to be a major, more than an inconvenience. Its going to be a major problem for the owners, as well as Pahala, as well as the County which is going to end up footing the bill for this. SAVIO:When we originally came forward to the community, they discussed at length the idea of electricity, water, what standards they want. I think one of the problems we have is the majority of our buyers are local buyers; and to them, price was more important than anything else. They would rather own their 5-acre parcel at $20,000 to $30,000 rather than $60,000 because water was required or something of that nature. Bringing in things like electricity and water are very, very expensive; and its one of the reasons that farm land in a lot of cases would become unaffordable for the local buyer. If I was selling this to the mainland guy coming out, theyll hire somebody to take care of it, theyre going to build a house, I mean, I could sell these for $100,000 all day long; but thats not the purpose of the project. Okay, so you can require water, but what you will do is you will make it unaffordable for the local buyers. There arent that many government programs on the acquisition that help. Part of the concept 14 here is that people understand what theyre buying, theyre presently farming or residents of the area, they are getting substandard, they realize theyre getting substandard. Were setting up a condominium association on top of that because that gives them the unified voice, gives them the ability to write and ask and, hopefully, receive government grants that will allow them, using Federal funds, to later bring in water, or bring in electricity, those types of things. The whole concept here is getting affordable land into the hands of the people. I dont think 175 people are going to build homes right away. I think this is a case of where as they farm the land, most of these people have homes some-, and theyre all residents of Pahala, right now, or Ka€u. Theyre not living on the mainland or some place else. I mean, theyre here now, so most of them happen to have homes. I dont think theyre going to build homes right away. But if theyre required to put in water, huge, huge expense, it will become unaffordable. You require electricity, it becomes unaffordable. You know, if you require, again, it doesnt seem like a lot of money, but, you know, you require certain repairs or paving certain roads, and these types ofthings,italladdstothecost.TherequestthattheCountyhasmadealreadywillprobablyadd up to about $1,000,000 to our cost; and thats just for paved roads, and bridge repairs, and things like that. Okay, and like I say our mandate from the community was keep the price down. PUBLIC:Right. SAVIO:Thats what they want. MCCALL:I understand what youre saying. But, again, its one matter when we have, and we have farmers are out there in Moaula, theyre doing a good job, but theyre not living on the property. Its a whole another matter when theyre living on the property. If 10 percent of them are living on the property, it, you know, I mean, weve got that concern. SAVIO:Just, just so you also understand, we also bought the mill site. The mill site does have also a well. So we have a 10,000,000 gallon well site. We have a huge water source there thats presently owned by myself. Also, we are talking to the government about trying to get some of the water from the existing system that is there. The existing system that was put in years ago to help the farmers was supposed to go to the Catholic Church property; and Im not sure where it stopped or how far it had gotten. But there is some water to the top of our property €cause the rancher up there has a pipe and hes getting water from some place Im not sure where. But were hoping eventually -. I think his, excuse me, if I got the name wrong, I think its Alili Spring or -. MCCALL:Alili, yeah. SAVIO:Tunnels. MCCALL:Yeah. SAVIO: The County is going to abandon that source. MCCALL:Alili Tunnel, yeah. 15 SAVIO:Alili Tunnel, okay, so theyre going to abandon that source; and were hoping that we can apply and get some of the water from there. €Cause that is above our property and to the, Alili, to the right of the property. And then condominium association, €cause we are giving them a reserve account over and above all the costs of $1,000,000. Wed have funds, to either apply for a grant or government assistance but, to run a pipe across on top. I mean weve looked at it, weve discussed it, and the community-based, we said, hey, water is nice and wed like to have it, but if we put it in we cant afford it. So wed rather be able to afford it, wed rather be able to plant our crops, wed rather be able to farm it; and well work around these problems. I agree with you, itd be nice to have. But the decision is if we give it to them, then they cant buy, whats the sense of doing the project. Were not doing it for outside buyers. The project is being done for the people of Ka€u. ALAMEDA:Okay, any further questions, Commissioners? SIRACUSA:Yes,yeah. ALAMEDA:Siracusa? SIRACUSA:Therehasbeenreferencetothecondominiumownersassociation.Iknow that in Puna we have quite a few homeowners associations in the various subdivisions that are rather dysfunctional. Not everybody wants to join and be a member of but they object when decisions are made by that body that affect them. Im wondering can people be forced to join an association -? SAVIO:In a condo -. SIRACUSA:And, I mean -. SAVIO:The reason were using the condominium rather than a community association is a condominium is recognized in State law. A condominium is a structure that is created under State law. It requires them to be a member of the association, it gives the association the right to foreclose on them if they do not pay their fees. It gives the Board of Directors a lot of say of how it is managed. There are requirements that reserved accounts be maintained, there are requirements that the assets of the corporation, the roads, the bridges, waterlines, whatever is there, be reviewed, etc. The condominium is the solution to all of the problems you have in Puna and everywhere else. It amazes me that it is not a requirement for agricultural condominiums, or subdivisions, or even residential subdivisions that they have this type of a structure laid on top. We are going through the cost of laying the condominium on top of the subdivision. Its not required, its not needed. But what it does is it takes the loose nip organization of homeowners and gives them a common voice; and by law they now are forced to work together, they have to be a member, they cannot withdraw. They have the right to elect their own city council or board of directors, they have to maintain all their improvements. There are State laws and regulations that are very clear as to what those requirements are. It is the perfect solution to this type of a development. The condominium is a key part of assuring that this group as it goes forward will do what needs to be done, will operate, they have to keep records, they have to be audited. Theres all sorts of requirements in the law. ALAMEDA:Other questions? Thank you. You may be seated. Thank you. We have 16 a, our testimony list is growing by the minute. So we have 20 individuals, 21 individuals who have signed up for testimony, and as the Chair I do reserve the right to limit testimony if its redundant or if its not relevant. But we want to hear your voice, and thats what these public meetings are for. So I want tocall up, Ill call up maybe five at a time, and well go from there. So Michael Silva, and you can just kind of sit down and line yourself up. John Replogle? REPLOGLE:Replogle. ALAMEDA:Replogle. Forgive me if I torture your name. Franco Longakit, Don Sakata, and Kevin Davis. Also, for the public, Ill be, Mr. Torigoe is our Corp. Counsel and he really knows protocol; and so when I turn to him for advice it doesnt mean Im talking secrets. Its just that Im making sure that Im on the right page in terms of protocol. So -. Okay, why dont I just, could you all pleaseraiseyourrighthands.Doyouswearoraffirmtotellthetruthonthismatternowbefore the Hawai€i Planning Commission? TESTIFIERS:I do. ALAMEDA:Thank you. I guess well start from you. If you could state your name, residence, name and residence; and then you can proceed. DAVIS:All right. My name is Kevin Davis, resident of Volcano. Some of the questions, basically what I have are questions more than a statement. And most of those questions were answered by Mr. Savio, but I did have also questions for the Committee. Is if this project is not passed what do you folks perceive happening to these land over the next 20 years? In other words, will it be another Hokulia or Kukio? And what huge develop-, developer will come in and overprice it where its way out of our reach? I have five children that attend Kamehameha Schools and Id like for them to have a future. And without this project being passed, I cant see ever being able to afford to get a farm for my family. Thats basically it. ALAMEDA:Thank you. SIRACUSA:Are you one of the licensees who is currently farming on the property? DAVIS:No, no, no. SIRACUSA:Have you applied for a piece of the land to farm on? DAVIS:Yes, yes, I have. SIRACUSA:Okay. And are you saying that you are supporting this project? DAVIS:Yes, Maam. SIRACUSA:Okay. I wanted that clear. Thank you. DAVIS:Thank you. 17 ALAMEDA:Other Commissioners? Okay, thank you. You may state your name and residence and you can proceed. SAKATA:My name is Don Sakata. I was born and raised here in Pahala. My family has been part of a business for like 50, 55 years doing delivery service back and forth. Weve been part of the plantation process for all our lives. I speak in support of this project because it gives us an opportunity locally. Its an affordable price, number one, basically. The thing about the living on the land is it makes a big difference between being a lessee farming land, owning a farm five miles away, and living at home. Thats one of my main concerns, is if I was to invest a lot of money up in the farm, not living there or not being there its hard to transport everything up and down. So that becomes a burden. And it would be nice to have a dwelling, or something that we could be there, then that could change the whole aspect of my outlook on farming, being that they could do a lot of different things other than coffee itself. The other point I wanted to make, point out was Ive been involved in youth sports for all my life.Ivebeencoachingfor15,20yearshereinthecommunity.AndrightnowIcouldsay98 percent of all of these kids that come out, graduate from Ka€u High School have nothing left here. Theyve all got to go somewhere else. And right now this is an opportunity for maybe some to stay to build a life where they would like to stay home in Ka€u. And most of them, like I say, theyve got to travel, weve got to travel to Kona or Hilo, three-hour drive, just to go get a minimum wage job to start. So that, that outlook is real hard as far as the community goes. And I can speak for that, in that sense where I dont have any of these pupils, former pupils, you know, living here and making a life. So with this in support, there might, there might be a chance for help change and improve our community. My kids got to go, you know, theyre not, they dont have any, much job opportunities. So our economic base is basically nil. ALAMEDA:Thank you, Mr. Sakata. Could you, any questions? MCCALL:Yeah -. ALAMEDA:Go ahead. MCCALL:Hi. Don? So you, if you, you would be looking at probably building a house on your, on the parcel that you now have a license on most probably? SAKATA:I would like to -. MCCALL:Yeah, okay. SAKATA:If it could be possible, you know. MCCALL:Would you, and if you did that under the current situation you would need to put in water tanks or something like that? 18 SAKATA:Yeah, as far as the water goes and electricity goes, Id say like get solar, you got the wind, you can do, you know, something without getting all the utility poles in. I think there is a chance. MCCALL: Would you, do you have a guess on how much you think, say, it would cost for you to put up water tanks and stuff to catch water for your, for your property? SAKATA:Oh, you mean to build my home? MCCALL:Yeah. If you were building your, Im asking, you know, if youre building your house how much do you think it would, how much do you think it would cost to put up, you know, water tanks and catchment to supply -? SAKATA:Well, I have no idea on the price of tanks and stuff. But then my property isclosetolikewhatMr.Saviohadspokeabouttheexistingwatersupply? MCCALL:Uhhuh. SAKATA:Thatwouldbesomethingthat,youknow,wouldbe,wouldlookfeasibleif we all could work together and get, you know, get the proper water, like the lines in to help. MCCALL:I guess, yeah. Perhaps my point would be, lets say, if everybody, if all of you wanted to build a house, if all of you wanted to have water, if youre looking at say spending $5,000 for, to put up your, put up a water tank, that might be cheap, maybe you might need to spend more than that, if everybody spent $5,000 of the 175, youre talking about close to a million dollars. And it might be worthwhile for you as a condominium association to go instead of putting that money into water tanks to put that money to putting in a well or developing one of these other systems, getting some piped water. That, you know -. SAKATA:That, absolutely, Id be all for that, you know, working toward that goal so we can all get everything up to standard. MCCALL:Okay, thank you. DAVIS:Sir, I put in a 10,000 gallon water tank at my house in Volcano and it cost about $3200. I put it up myself. One night of rain its full. MCCALL:Yeah, but thats in Volcano. Youd need probably twice that here. ALAMEDA:Any more questions of the applicant, testifier? GRAHAM:Don, you know Pahala and this area and I dont. I live way up on the north end of the island. And a lot of what I learned has just been from a meeting we had a year ago when Mr. Hester was putting in for an agricultural rezoning. At that time, lets see, we all 19 know as you said that so many people drive long distances from Pahala so a real big need is employment or, you know, earnings here. At that time Mr. Hester indicated that his biggest problem in his agricultural work on his place was finding workers. So, and he also said, if anybody remembers differently let me know, but just on like an acre or two of his parcel he was able to supply the supermarket here and sell some stuff in Hilo. So Im kind of left wondering how are we really going to provide employment if thats whats needed. Homes is one thing. And were speaking about people having a piece of property of their own, but the kids have got to leave because theyve got to make a living. And is this really addressing this? And it seems like youre thinking maybe it will, but I cant quite put it together in my head how this is going to really do that. SAKATA:Yeah, as far as that goes, what I can say to that is like the coffee farmers, right now theres only coffee. Thats the only project that came up as far as farming goes. And just from looking at the 5-acre farm a family could be self-sufficient. But then like the, right now,iftherewerentno,iftherewasntanymarketasfaras,youknow,likewhenyousayasfar as the earnings side will go -. So Im looking at a lot of other different types of farming that will be profitable. Because coffee alone, if you dont get the right price, youre going backwards because, you know, the time that you put in, youll never make it back, youll never make a profit. And right now the successful guys they are doing good as far as the Ag, getting a base price; and they have survived, and they can make a go. Right now like I say thats the only project thats going on; and theres nothing else really other than the mac nuts that, really, as an Ag product. So that is a still kind of an unclear future, you know, situation-wise. GRAHAM:Thank you for your comment. ALAMEDA:Thank you. Any further questions for Mr. Sakata? All right, next testifier, could you state your name and address. LONGAKIT:You mind if I stand up? ALAMEDA:Sure. LONGAKIT:Okay. My name is Franco Longakit. I happen to be the president, I mean, former president of the Union, Sugar Workers Union in this community for about ten years as unit chairman. And Im going to speak in behalf of unemployed people here in Pahala and on the developed situation in regards to Savio, okay. I did submit a letter to you which I would like to read out loud at this time. Okay, dear, I understand that, I can see that your Commission Chairman is not here today. His name is Fred Galdones -. ALAMEDA:Right. LONGAKIT:And I understand hes in the Philippines, right? ALAMEDA:Correct. 20 LONGAKIT:Okay. Anyway, let me read this letter. My name is Franco Longakit and I am in support of this project by Hawaiian Island Development Company. I used to work for Ka€u Sugar and am now retired. Ever since the plantation shut down, the town of Pahala has been suffering. People have to travel so far away from, all the way to Waikoloa and on the north side of our island or Hilo. Okay. The developer, Peter Savio, is working with the Pahala community on this project. The project will be good for the future of Pahala for jobs and for the families in the town. The project is on land which used to be owned by C. Brewer. The former cane lands will now be available to us former workers to own and farm. This is something that has never been done before. In the past, ifthelandwassold,wecouldnotaffordtobuyit.Onlythosefromtheoutsidecouldbuythe land. This project gives us a chance to own our land and to leave something to our families. The land can be farmed which is good. The farmed land can provide for jobs for the people in Pahala so that they do not have to drive to and from work. Thank you for this opportunity to testify and I hope you support this project. Id like to add a little bit outside of this letter. I was born and raised here 75 years ago. Okay, I worked for the sugar company. My dad used to also, you know, in the early 30s up until when he retired. And as the, you know, growing up in this camp I havent seen any development real big. Can you imagine people, yeah, theyve got to wake up 3:45 in the morning to go to work in Waikoloa from here, and this is daily, you know, commuting daily, and to Hilo, which is something like 54 miles away from us. Were in the middle of nowhere in Pahala. Developments like this is going to enhance other developers to come into the community and, you know, make this place something that people can stay home and work. June is coming around the corner. How many people, students are going to come out from school, where are they going to go? You know, some time ago, some years ago Pahala when the sugar company was in full swing, we had about 9 or 10, almost 10,000 residents here in Pahala alone. Today, the latest census that I read in the paper a few days ago 1900. Can you imagine that? Why? Because theres no jobs here. Our kids come out from school, during the evening hours theres no, nothing for them to do. If you live in Hilo or in Kona, you can go to the, those children, kids can go to the bowling alley, sit in a restaurant and, you know, go to the movies. Theres no theaters here. All they got is tv. Good thing they invented tv. Whoever that was, I really appreciate what he did. So, and then, in the end, to cut my topic short I just wanted to let you folks to know the farmer, coffee farmers are doing real good; and if they can do this other people can do so if given the opportunity to own land. So, please, give this your full consideration, your full consideration, and lets be able to see this community grow. Thank you very much. ALAMEDA:Thank you, Mr. Longakit. Any questions for the testifier? Okay, could you please state your name and address. REPLOGLE:My name is John Replogle and I live in Ka€u, Ocean View. I grew up here. I would like to, I wrote something that Ill read, and I know you can all read, too. But Id 21 like to say that Mr. Longakit and I share a very similar thing, and all the people who live in Ka€u, is that we love Ka€u, thats why theyre driving from 3:45 in the morning to work and live here. And the issue of being able to make a living and keeping Ka€u Ka€u is what I think Im going to talk to. And I strongly oppose, am opposed to the subdivision approval unless these criteria are met. In other words, if they do it my way its okay. That the land in question be placed into an agricultural easement to keep it in agriculture in perpetuity. In other words these parcels remain zoned agriculture forever and may never be subdivided or resold for any other purpose. Should a person, person wish to buy the land and not farm, so be it but they shall pay an urban tax rate. Should they choose to lease their land and have it in agriculture they may reapply for an agricultural status. Two,eachparcelshallhaveonehomeonlyandbuildingsrelatedtofarmingoperations.There shall be a lighting code put in place to protect our night sky from light pollution. There shall be a viewplane code established that will protect the visual beauty of Ka€u to ensure that itll remain its natural untouched state as humanly possible. When traveling through Ka€u and one looks mauka, we dont want to see the mountain side of Mauna Loa covered with buildings and lights, indicating yet, that yet again man has destroyed open and natural spaces that keep the human spirit healthy. This part here is up for debate „ that ten percent of the profits made from the sale of this land or the resale shall be placed into an EDUCATIONAL TRUST FUND for the schools in the Ka€u district. The funds may be siphoned off only in the form of interest generated by the principal, which shall be added to each sale. This fund could be administered by the Ka€u Federal Credit Union. Schools would apply for funds in a grant type format. These guidelines need a little work to be fleshed out but they will give the natives of Ka€u what they want as well as creating a community where newcomers are welcome and not resented. It would break class differences and create common ground; people are here because they want to live in the most beautiful place on earth. These guidelines while they may see stringent will attract like minded people who will fit into Ka€u. The result of the educational trust fund will be a well-rounded and well-educated future generation of citizens who know you dont have to destroy the environment and the planet to live on it. These guidelines should be upheld for all developments in the Ka€u district forever. If the landowner does not wish to participate they should sell their land to someone who can see the value of their land as the people of Ka€u know them. Thank you. ALAMEDA:Any questions, any questions for the -? SIRACUSA:Yes. ALAMEDA:Okay, go ahead. SIRACUSA:Yes. First of all, your, your comment about the, no more than one structure on the parcel, thats already in there. Okay, so that, from what I understand about the 22 condominium owners association, the idea about an educational fund could be worked through something like that. Maybe Mr. Savio or somebody else could say whether thats a possibility or not. But its my understanding that organizations can always decide to set up funds for special purposes and set aside a certain percentage of monies to go into that fund. So it seems to me like that would be doable within the group itself. As far as the permanency in Ag of these parcels, I would ask Mr. Yuen if he would respond to that. ALAMEDA:Mr. Yuen. YUEN:On the question of a permanent land use control, lets, let me separate those, theres the government side and theres the private side. On the government side you cant tie the hands of a future government making a decision. We have, we currently have a zoning,andwehaveaGeneralPlanforKa€u,andwehavezoningandaGeneralPlanforthe whole island. So the current General Plan for this part of the island, for this part of Ka€u, is Important Agriculture. So, and then the zoning is 20-acre lots; and what theyre here for is to rezone in a way that would allow some smaller lots, and roughly double the number of lots that you could make there. Now this, if its approved now its because, and just so everybody understands what the roles are here of everybody, Im the Planning Director. Ive a full-time job working for the County; and Im responsible for land use planning. The folks sitting here are the Planning Commissioners. Theyre appointed by the Mayor, theyre volunteers, they dont get any money for this. I make a recommendation to them and to the County Council. The County Council which you do vote for has a final say on whether this zoning, rezoning goes through or not. But you cant, we cant put in an ordinance that says it will forever be agriculture because in 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, the people that are elected to take care of the communitys business, the government at that time, cant be blocked by what we decided today. So, so you cant do it on a government side. It would be, it would be general planned. If somebody wanted to do something different from agriculture in the area, they would have to change the General Plan. So that theres that level of control, but it could be changed in the future. On the private side, the private person can put a, a restrictive covenant on the property that keeps it in agriculture, but thats, thats on a private level of control. ALAMEDA:Thank you. Any other question for the applicant? I mean -. REPLOGLE:May I say something? ALAMEDA:Go ahead. REPLOGLE:As far as agricultural easement, I realize that that would be more the landowner to do, that he should do that. So you say, okay, you can have your condominium or whatever, and it would be put into an agricultural easement that would stay in place forever, thats it. The government would have nothing to say about it. Mr. Savio would do it. And whoever comes after just has to live with that. Thank you. 23 ALAMEDA:Thank you. Other questions? Okay, go ahead, state your name and address, please. M. SILVA:Howzit. My name is Mike Silva. I was born and raised here in Pahala. My grandfather, my father, me, my brothers, all worked for this plantation until it closed down. We all had to travel for work or, you know, to maintain our livelihood here. We fail, we refuse to move from this place because, you know, how beautiful it is and how things are here. The community is all tight, everybody know each other. Im a, Im for this project. I mean everybody get farming going on, ranching, whatever they doing. Its not a full time subsidy for us because we all get jobs and all that, but it helps maintain our livelihood, helps put our kids through college and other thing like that, give our kids an opportunity to come home to something and make something of their lives and, you know, give them an extra bonus for do things with something if we have this land. This is the last chance we havetobuyland,uslocalshere.Allthelandisbeingsold,soldtobigmoneyinbigquantities. They didnt give us the opportunity to buy the land that were leasing and all that. One time it was talked about but it wasnt done. So this is the last piece of land that we have that we can afford. We really, really need these for our families, for ourselves. So I hope you guys can really realize that, hey, if you shut us down now, you shutting us down for the rest of our lives, youre shutting down our children, you know. Its something that has to be considered. For people that have money, they dont realize how hard time we have. But this is our last opportunity. Please consider that for us. Were willing to work hard, we have been working hard all our lives. We know theres dry times, we know theres wet times. We make the best of it, but we strive on. And thats how we are here. You know, our kids are the same way. So, hey, please help us here. We need this. Thats all I have to say. ALAMEDA:Thank you, Mr. Silva. Real quick, could you state your address. M. SILVA:Pahala. I was born and raised in Pahala. ALAMEDA:Okay, all right. Thank you, thank you. All right, were going to be calling up the next five folks, Jerome Warren, Willie Rice, Sterling Robbins, Ruth Bass and Jeff Sweeney. I want to swear all you in at this time. Could you please raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth on this matter now before the Hawai€i Planning Commission? TESTIFIERS:I do. ALAMEDA:Thank you. This time well start this way. If you could state your name, figure you can get it out of the way, huh? SWEENEY:Sure. ALAMEDA:State your name and address and you can proceed. 24 SWEENEY:My name is Jeff Sweeney and I am -. NOMURA:Microphone, please. ALAMEDA:Speak into the mike, please. Yeah, thank you. SWEENEY:My name is Jeff Sweeney and I live in Naalehu. And I am opposed to this project for a number of reasons, most of them have to do with the slippery slopes aspect of the way development has gone, not only on this island but all over the place. Ka€u is one of the last remaining, as John Replogle said, panoramic beautiful spots; and more subdividing that goes on and building changes, the more in jeopardy that is. Now, Im sorry Im not educated enough on who owns all the land now currently or which land is in escrow or that aspect. But one of the things that hasnt been addressed that bothers me is thatyearsagotheBrewerCo.cametothisareaandputthesugarplantingsinandlefthuge messes everywhere. The fish pond Ninole are silted in from their misuse through the roads, there are huge buildings that are just falling in decay, all around that they still own. There has been runoff, and especially in traveling in the roads between, you know, in the Ka€u, part of the Ka€u district; and the fact that they can just do that, go away and make, you know, billions of dollar is just, I think, a tragedy for the land and the people here. Something else that has come up is the, you know, I was here for the Hesters, through the County Council meeting there. And same people, and I respect them, were worried about the jobs in the future and everything for those folks. They were granted their subdivision approval. They had paid originally $968,000 for their land, got their okay, and now their land is listed for $6,000,000. So there goes anybody being able to afford it here and their kids from the former sugar workers. Its just a done deal. You know, if, if 99 percent of these lots are already spoken for, which Mr. Savio said that kind of stacks up in favor of that, of this going through -. There was, you know, at one time 20-acre parcels were thought to be reasonable General Plan Land Use of the agricultural lands here. Now when people are trying to cut down to five that, you know, its the slipper slope aspect that Im in fear of. Also, is there any, maybe its Michaels or John Replogles view, but what, is there any conditions built into the contract for this project that, that, for instance, someone that buys it and then turning around in one year and selling it to such a price that cant be afforded by these very farmers and intended for farmers that this is supposed to be benefiting? I think that there needs to be some iron-clad, in perpetuity, that a clause is put into the contract here that you guys cant turn around and sell it for three times as much no matter what the landowner/buyers changes the future zonings and such. And also, you mentioned, said something, Mr. Yuen, that I found interesting. You said you cant make decisions now for 20 or 30 years as things, conditions might change, and it cant be, you remember that, one of the last things? Theres going to be, you know, this is the first call, a lot of meetings in Ka€u because of all kinds of things on the horizon as we all know, especially in hearing codes. Does that mean that we can change zoning and decisions that were made 30 years ago in maybe backroom deals that didnt get much public scrutiny? And now that theres more, 25 now that we see the results in some of those decisions in Kona and other parts of this island and Maui that maybe we can readdress those issues and go, wait, maybe we made some mistakes back then and its a different climate now and perhaps we can see, you know, if these things can be changed back to something better for the greater good for the community. And thats about it. ALAMEDA:Thank you. Any questions for Mr. Sweeney? Yes. GRAHAM:I wanted to just follow up on Mr. Sweeneys comments and ask Norman, Norman are there any in what weve got before us, are there any restrictions at all on the kind of resale hes concerned about, someone that takes ownership here and sells within a year or two to whomever they choose? HAYASHI:Im not aware of any restrictions. Perhaps that could be direct -, rather directed towards the applicant or his representative. GRAHAM:All right. Thank you. But we dont have that before us at this point? HAYASHI:Not to my knowledge, no. GRAHAM:Thank you. YUEN:Yeah. As currently stated in the conditions there arent any resale restrictions. Its an interesting point. You know, on the affordable housing side, theres typically some kind of resale or shared appreciation. Thats the only example I can think of where thats been, where that has been done. But there is not any in the conditions as currently worded. SWEENEY:Well, that is the benefit -. ALAMEDA:Microphone, please. SWEENEY:Oh, the benefits for the farmer and the low income folks has been a selling point for this project. And I believe it would be mandatory to keep something like that, some clause in there that it remain so throughout the, as far in the future as we have control or we can go to the community and as a whole can address changing situations. ALAMEDA:Commissioners, any other questions? ESLIT:Mr. Chairman, can I ask a question? 26 ALAMEDA:No, actually if you want to speak, you have to come up and testify so that you can be on record. Okay, next, could you please state your name, address and you can proceed. BASS:Okay. Im Ruth Bass and I live in Green Sands Subdivision. Its another substandard subdivision that brought many mainland people to this side of the island. Ive lived here for 23 years. Ocean View, I believe, is the worlds largest subdivision; and were feeling the impact on the Naalehu School because of the movement of the mainland people where we dont have the facilities in the classrooms. So with this project up there, youre creating another community which 175 houses, potential 4-family homes, 4 persons to a home, 700 more people to this area. I support our farmers, I support farming in this community. But our farmers may not be able to afford that land. They may default on their loans and then it will go to the people who have the money.SoIwantyoutorememberthatthatisthecommunityyourecreatingthathasanimpact on our schools, as well as our fire, police protection, our roads. And that, thats all I have to say. ALAMEDA:Thank you. Any questions? Could you please state your name, address and you may proceed. ROBBINS:My name is Sterling Robbins. Is this thing on? ALAMEDA:Also, were asking you all to speak into the mike €cause everything is being recorded. ROBBINS:My name is Sterling Robbins. I live in that famous agriculture subdivision, Mark Twain. I would just basically support what John Roplogle said because Im mostly concerned that it stay in agriculture. I have the deepest respect for anybody that makes their living or even part of their living from farm. I grew up in a farm in Kansas and I deeply respect it. Now I m not opposed to that, in fact, I support that. And if they can make money out of it, bless their hearts; and if they can get more jobs, bless their hearts. So my concern is that it stay that, that it not be down on a slipperly slope. Thats my main concern. But Im all for affordable housing. I would simply suggest that you cannot resell at the original sale for five years, because right now we have an orgy of speculation. Right now is the time to buy land, turn it around quick. I hear stuff all weekly, bam, bam, bam. So put a time restraint on it so those that really want to farm can farm and if they dont, not buy this land for respeculation. And, in addition to that, I agree also with John that there should be some kind of thing that makes it so that people farm it, not just use it for land, you know, if theres some retax, reclassification with tax purposes, whatever, something that accomplishes that. And I also agree that something around the lighting or the visual aspect of it because Ka€u, I moved here, because Ka€u is a beautiful place and I would like it to stay that way for myself, and for those here, and those that have grown up here. So, basically, thats it. ALAMEDA:Thank you, Mr. Robbins. Any questions? Okay, please state your name, address and you can proceed. 27 WARREN:My name is Jerome Warren. My name is Jerome Warren. I live in Naalehu. I live in the old plantation housing part of town. I am an ex-sugar worker. I planted the last crop in Ka€u. Since leaving the plantation, Ive worked in agriculture. I worked for mac nut growers and I worked for one coffee farmer. So I kind of know what Im talking about. My family has a background in agriculture. My mom grew up on a wheat farm in North Dakota. My family originated in Europe where people lived in villages and they went out to the fields to farm. But I feel its very important that people live in villages. Im going to read my letter now. And, also, Im constantly being offered jobs. Im constantly turning down jobs. If a person is honest, they have a house, a car and a telephone, they will find work in Ka€u. The only thing that precludes a person is their education. The higher degree of education the higher the salary they can demand. Ill read my letter now. I planted the last cane crop in Ka€u. It was during a drought. My experiencetellsmenoreasonablepersonwouldexpectanyoneoftheseparcelstogeneratea positive cash flow. The only way a person could make money on these parcels is to collect grants or to resell the property. In the meantime, these parcels will preclude large scale agricultural, agriculture in the surrounding area. Residents and large scale agriculture do not mix. th Mr. Savio stated on February 10 , thats the meeting he invited us here to, that he expects the Federal Government to help with his infrastructure. Hehad a cost plan that hinged on his promised price staying the same if he can get all the Federal help, and he would be forced to raise the price if he could not get help. So nobody really knows what theyre going to end up paying on these lots. My feeling is that any Federal aid coming into Ka€u should be directed towards preserving our shoreline. Lets not dilute their generosity by asking for things which a developer should supply onhisown. Everything else I have to say on this rezoning I have already said in the Hester hearings. I hope thatweusebetterjudgmentthistime.Thankyou. ALAMEDA:Thankyou,Mr.Warren.Anyquestions,Commissioners?Allright,just for the public notice, we will be taking a ten-minute break after this testimony. Go ahead. Will youstateyournameandaddress. RICE:Goodmorning.MynameisWillieRice.ImaDistrictForesterforForest Solutions, Inc. I simply have a testimony here that I submitted earlier, and Id just like to read thistestimony.Itsaddressed‚ToWhomItMayConcern: ‚ForestSolutions,Inc.isconcernedwiththefollowingissuesregardingtheproposedrezoningof agricultural land. ‚Our agricultural crop, eucalyptus trees, surrounds this project on the volcano and Naalehu sides. We are both up-wind and down-wind. We have approximately 4,000 acres of trees at various stages, which continue to be a significant investment made by our client. Our trees will be ready for harvesting at age 7 and 8, or 8 and will continue on an ongoing basis. Our operations started in 1998 and have continued unhindered. Our agricultural operations include site preparation, 28 planting, fertilizing, herbicide spraying, and ultimately harvesting and transportation. Much of this work involves large agricultural machines all of which are normal operations on agriculturally zoned land. Typically, our day starts at sunrise and ends by 6 p.m. ‚We would like any potential new neighbors to be fully aware of our type of agriculture operations, and that these operations are likely to continue for the long run. ‚Thank you for your consideration.ƒ ALAMEDA:Thank you. Any questions. Okay. YUEN:Yeah, I have a couple of questions. How soon do you think youre going to start harvesting in the Ka€u area? RICE:Thetreesare,theoldesttreesaresixyearsrightnow,sevenoreightyears with infrastructure improvements, you know. In between seven or ten years, I would say. YUEN:In this area you would then, you would be taking the trees out over the Moaula and the Hionamoa Bridge. RICE:Those have not been decided yet. The harvesting operations have not been decided. YUEN:Is there any other way to get them out? RICE:No. I hear you. YUEN:How heavy are the logging trucks? If you took them out as logs, do you know how much the weight is on the logging truck? RICE:No, I dont. I cant answer that question. YUEN:Has the company checked the adequacy of the bridges to sustain the weights? RICE:Not at this time €cause we have not undergone any investigations on the operations of harvesting it. YUEN:Okay, thank you. ALAMEDA:Any questions? Before we take a break, Id just like to make a comment. Please note that during the break, as Commissioners, if you have questions for with, you know, for us, that the best time to bring it up is to basically testify and not to catch us inthe corner outside or something. So we would really appreciate that. Other than that, well take a ten- minute, hold on. SWEENEY:Can I ask aquestion, one, since Im still here testifying? 29 ALAMEDA:Okay, one quick question. SWEENEY:Since Im testifying -. ALAMEDA:Okay, go ahead. SWEENEY:The sort of thing that he just describedout that be in there -. That he -. This representative for the eucalyptus grower, its just this type of thing were worrying about. All these questions that Mr. Yuen just asked him about the harvesting, the roads, how much the weight. They, they dont have any idea yet and yet they were granted all this permission to go ahead and operate this huge operation without addressing the problems. Those are the kinds of things we want to avoid in the future with Ka€u. ALAMEDA:Okay, thank you. I thank all of you. Ten-minute break. RECESSEDThe Chair called a short recess at 11:14 a.m. RECONVENEDThe meeting reconvened at 11:24 a.m. ALAMEDA:All right, good morning again. Will the Hawai€i County Planning Commission now come to order. We will continue our testimony. So as I call you up, again, please be seated and wewill go forward. Greg Eslit, please come up. Have a seat. Howard Yamasaki, Kyle Soares, Stephanie Tabbada,is there a Stephanie -? TABBADA:Yes. ALAMEDA:Okay, thank you. And a Rusty Obra. Okay. All right, well start back this way. And with Greg, will you state your name and address, and you may proceed. SIRACUSA:Swear them in. ESLIT:My name is -. ALAMEDA:Oh, Ive got to swear you guys in, sorry about that. Make sure everything is in the record. Please raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth on this matter now before the Hawai€i Planning Commission? TESTIFIERS:I do. ALAMEDA:Thank you. Okay, go ahead, Greg. 30 ESLIT:My name is Greg Eslit. My name is Greg Eslit. Im from Pahala. I grew up here and went to school. And right now Im kind of representing my family and my cababayan, my compadre because of, for one thing or another, theyre at work, or theyre basically language barrier. During back in the early €40s there was a lot of immigrants that came to Pahala and we worked with them, and all this thing. And when I was old enough to work in the, this is a short story, when I was early, when I came here and going to school I had a job at Pahala Hospital; and I was making 19 cents an hour, four hours there. Saturdays and Sundays, we worked out in the canefield, hey, you make cut cane, 3 cents a bundle for 200 pounds. But then the military grabbed me and says, hey, Ill take your cut cane knife and give you a ride home. After I served my hitch I came back, hey, my job was still here, but I want to get a family. With 19 cents an hour I said no, no, no no, its not enough, I cant even support myself. So I went out. And I came back, hey, whats happening? Theres no plantation, no nothing. But the people from the old country came here, worked, and they were hardworking people. But then like the plantation they were kind enough, and Savio backed us up, and, hey, we got to, we wereabletoget5acres.AndIknowthatsomeofyousaidtherewasadroughtandallthis thing, but, hey, they went ahead and collect buckets of water to get out to the field, water their coffee land and let it grow. They suffered through all these things. And so now Im just hoping that, you know, hey, please pass this thing through because this family, these people worked so hard. Theyre not asking for anything, they just want to be able to chance to take care their family and raise their family. And so, you know, this is our only chance. I know according to the paper Jacobson said he had a better deal. But, you know, thats only word; and word like they said is very cheap. He has never come out and offered anything. And Savio gave us a chance that, hey, the price of the property is equivalent to a car. You can always keep for five years and not buy a shiny car and get a 5-acre property. So, please, Im asking for the Board members to think about this thing because the people are trying to make a living. Thank you. ALAMEDA:Thank you. Any questions for our testifier. Commissioner Siracusa. SIRACUSA:Are you one of the current licensees or do you plan to buy one of these parcels? ESLIT:No, Im the third of the pecking order. I used to live right here so like I said I was the third pecking order, and I was fortunate enough to have my name of the list. Yes, I do have. ALAMEDA:Any questions? All right, will you please state your name and address and you may proceed. YAMASAKI:Howard Yamasaki, Honaunau, South Kona. Chairman Alameda, Member of the Commission, Id like to represent two organizations at this particular time. I am the secretary for the Hawai€i Farm Bureau Federation and I would like to read into the public record a portion of our written testimony that you have before you. 31 ‚The Hawai€i Farm Bureau supports the concept of the Pahala Plantation Farm Lands in Ka€u, Big Island. This project will provide the farmers the opportunity to purchase fee simple prime agricultural lands as well as provide an economic stimulus for Ka€u area residents. While there are still some questions as to how this agricultural subdivision will work, we believe that if done right, it could set a model for future projects like this statewide. We encourage the County Planning Commission to be vigilant in making sure that this project remains a bona fide agricultural subdivision. Enforcement of existing laws and follow through is the key.ƒ Thats for our Hawai€i Farm Bureau Federation. I would like to now to read into the record our written testimony from the Big Island Farm Bureau of which I am the president. I will only read a portion of that particular document again. ‚The Big Island Farm Bureau strongly supports the preservation of agricultural lands on the Big Island, especially those that are currently in or have been in productive agriculture. Such is the caseofthelandsintheapplicationbeforethePlanningCommissiontoday.Thoselandswere previously cultivated in sugar cane for many decades and provided jobs and a plantation lifestyle to those in the area. ‚The proposed agricultural project will not only preserve agricultural land, but it will provide former sugar plantation workers and others living in the area the opportunity to acquire land to farm and thereby being able to produce diversified agricultural products. This project will provide agribusiness opportunities, agricultural jobs, and economic revitalization to the area. ‚In closing, the Big Island Farm Bureau urges the Planning Commission to approve this application for a change of zone, with the condition that there are assurances from the applicant that this project will be a bona fide agricultural endeavor. ‚Thank you for the opportunity to comment.ƒ ALAMEDA:Thank you, Norman. Any questions for our testifier? Okay, thank you. Moving on -? Could you please state your name and address, and you may proceed. OBRA:Good afternoon. My name is Rusty Obra and Ive lived here now for the past 4 Ÿ years. I moved here from the mainland originally. I would like to thank you for having the opportunity to speak before this Commission today. I have a comment though regarding the scheduling of this meeting. The timing is not good. I did not know about the meeting, not until Anna Cariaga called me up last Monday. And, also, I received a letter from Mr. Savio, it was stnd dated March 1 , and we received it here in the afternoon of March 2. So I would like to make it clear that my presence here is only on my own opinion. I am the president ofthe Ka€u Coffee Growers Cooperative, but Im not speaking on their behalf. I understand that this meeting has beenarrangedpurposely,Iguess,mostlyforthefarmersbecauseweareinvolvedinthisproject. But the scheduling is not right for us. Most of the farmers, about 75 percent of the membership, 32 we have 33 members, work full time. They work in Hilo, in Kona, and majority of them work for the mac nut company. And right now, the mac nut company, theyre being forced to work seven days a week; and they cannot take a time off just for this meeting. If I remember correctly, when Mr. Hester had the public meeting, it was in the late afternoon or evening where people are in here. So why is the change? I dont know who made the schedule, Im not pointing any fingers to anybody, but I just want to make this clear. When we moved here from the mainland, my wife and I made a commitment to this town through volunteer work. For the past 3 Ÿ years, we are both volunteers of the Fire Department and currently I am the Chief of the Volunteer Fire Department. Im also part-time teacher in the middle schools as well as the high school teaching science and math. Im doing this because I care about the kids. I feel that with my experience, with my work experience, as well as education, I can be of influence to them. And, lastly, I am a coffee grower and remain committed to be a coffee farmer. I would like to seethecoffeeindustryandthisdistricttogrowandprosperinthefutureforthebenefitofthe next generation of our families. I hope that we will be allowed and be protected by the different agencies of the State, that means the Planning Department, the Council people, the County administration, that we will be allowed to do farming lifetime. Now this project, in my own opinion, Im going to support it only if its not a condominium. I have a lot of experience in the mainland about condominiums, and Im opposed to it. If you want to ask me the reasons why I will tell you, but I dont think I have the time to talk about it. Last but not least, I hope that we can have an additional public meeting in the future where majority of the members of the cooperative will be here. Thank you. ALAMEDA:Any questions or comments, Commissioners? MCCALL:Yes. ALAMEDA:Commissioner McCall. MCCALL:Yeah, hi, Rusty. OBRA:Hi, Jeff. MCCALL:Two things, well, first, Id like to tell, okay, now if I understand, the properties are going to be sold but theres going, to each, to each individual farmer, but there will be a condominium overlay. If, if, is that, or, you know, I think thats about how its being portrayed. So am I understanding you right that you say you are, youre not in favor of the project with the condominium with the overlay? OBRA:Yes. Why do we make it fee simple? There is, if I add, if I may tell you the reasons. We dont want to be burden with the maintenance fee, thats number one. I have a lot of experience about it in the mainland, not only with myself but my friends and relatives. 33 And I also, when I came here I studied a little bit about real estate. I had my real estate license but I didnt pursue it because I was still tied up with trying to do the farming, so I dropped it completely. I would not want one day where the planning, the maintenance fee will go sky high that we cannot afford it any more, especially in our situation where were just starting the coffee industry in this part of the island. And you know pretty well things are tough, mostly on marketing. We struggle since day one about marketing, and until now, thats still our biggest problem. So down the road with all these unexpected expenses suddenly will come to us and then we cannot afford any more besides the, you know, loan for providing the land, what youre going to do? Youve lost everything. MCCALL:Do you have any, have you been given an idea what the fees would be? OBRA:Well, I believe it was August of last year, Mr. Savio, there was a meeting here and all the farmers, we were not here at the time because we went visiting our kid in New Jersey.Therewasameetingandtherewas,Ithink,pileofrealestatedocumentsthatweregiven to the farmers. On top of the document was saying the maintenance fee would probably, now I repeat the word ‚probably,ƒ its not fixed, for a start it would probably be $50, or $55 to $75 a month. We came back from the meeting, from the vacation and I asked all the farmers whether they went through the public, the real estate documents, and nobody, not even one, read the whole thing. They just read the top one. So my wife and I spent probably weeks reading through it, and down at the bottom there was an exhibit specifically talking about maintenance fee. Now suddenly according to the calculations with all the expected expenses, one of them being the security in the, I dont recall, maybe $25 to $30 a year for security, suddenly they came up to 100-, I believe it was $155 per month. Now what happened to the one in front? Now between the two of this document, which one do you have to, you think is more true or, what, credible? So those are the things that are, what worries me. Like I said I have a lot of experience about these things. If its going to be a condominium, Im not going to buy. Its as simple as that. ALAMEDA:Thank you. Follow-up questions, comments? Commissioner Siracusa. SIRACUSA:Well, at first when Mr. Savio was speaking I was under the impression that the condominium association would be like, you know, like the Board of Directors or, you know, a membership organization, and that they would make decisions such as maintenance fees and things like that. And now youre telling us something totally opposite. So I would like, Mr. Savio -. SAVIO:Clarify? SIRACUSA:Could you address for us -. SAVIO:Yes. Do I have to talk in the mike? SIRACUSA:Yes. Youre still under oath. SAVIO:Yes. Okay. To clarify, when you file for the report you have to, as a developer, outline what the probable cost would be. At the point we filed for the public report 34 we werent sure what the community would want. So we made the worst assumption. We assumed they would want security, we assumed they would want a much higher standard. We made a lot of assumptions. So we enclosed with that packet on the maintenance fee a letter that explained we had made these assumptions. So when you read the document, theres a higher number; but the actual number would be more around $75. So thats where this, a little bit of confusion is, okay. €Cause I did not know what they wanted. Realizing the condominium, the maintenance fee is the insurance, which is actually cheaper than getting individual insurance on your home, or your liability insurance. It includes the cost of maintaining the roads, the types of things that the County would be concerned about. The cost that are in the maintenance fee exists even as a subdivision. But when you do the subdivision, theres no, no mechanism to collect the money and see that the infrastructure is maintained. The condominium, you view the structure that allows the maintenance fee to be established by the owners of the farms. They elect the people that will decide what will be done. Rusty and his group will decide what they want and what they dont want. The maintenance fee is not controlled by the developer, the money does notgotothedeveloper.Themoneygoestotheownersofthelots.Itisheldintrustbythemby the property management firm. They have complete control over it. Other than, of course, the insurance company rates the premium, the maintenance fee goes up. The cost of road maintenance goes up, the maintenance fee goes up. So its just the cost of operating. SIRACUSA:Thank you for clarifying that. Rusty, did you want to respond to that? OBRA:No, Maam. YUEN:If I can follow up on this. This is related to the question that you asked earlier about requiring people to pay maintenance fees. The County, in the County of Hawai€i weve had a bad experience in the past in the subdivisions that were developed in the fifties and sixties in that they were developed, you have these private subdivisions that were developed with poor roads. And in many cases there was no mandatory maintenance agreement. In other words, some subdivisions it said that you had to pay a certain amount and that it could be raised by the Board of Directors of the subdivision. Others, it didnt say anything. And one said, where it didnt say anything, you have a very hard time getting people to agree later as to whether they should have to pay and how much should they, they should have to pay, particularly people that did not, that are not living there, that just bought it to resell it to somebody else. Then they dont want to pay, they dont care how bad the roads are, and they dont want to pay any money while theyre waiting to resell the property. So this would be, this would be a subdivision or condominium with private roads; and the County would require, whether its done as a subdivision or a condominium, the County would require that there be an association with the power to set mandatory maintenance fees. And weve done that for subdivisions. It can be done in a subdivision from the, as long as you started out that way. Its very hard to do it after the subdivision is established. But when, if you started out that way you can do it. And we would have required this, and we have a clause in there that if it changes to be a subdivision in a fee simple form it will still be, there will still be a mandatory, there will be, the people would have to join an association and they will have to pay maintenance fees as set by the association to cover repair, maintenance and the like on the roads and other project infrastructure. ALAMEDA:Thank you. GRAHAM:Can I -? 35 ALAMEDA:Commissioner Graham. GRAHAM:Id like to just use this opportunity, not to question you, sir, but to ask a follow up question of Mr. Yuen. You spoke of like the Puna subdivisions back in the fifties where I think the general sense on the Countys point of view is its an unfortunate this situation that was created by those substandard subdivisions; and yet when I look at this subdivision, so much of it seems very similar, substandard roads, power to only some of the lots, catchment water. It seems like youre creating something very much akin to what weve continued to complain about over the years. So since youre supporting this I know you see other features that more than outweigh that for you. I wonder if you could speak to that issue. YUEN:The question here is to make a subdivision that may not be entirely to County standards but is workable for the community that will result there. So although the roads arenottoCountystandards,theyare,assaidintheconditionsoftheordinance,theyareata standard that would be workable. But it would be not require Council maintenance, thats why there are requirements for paving the roads. So were not talking about doing roads that are like the roads in Hawai€ian Acres or some of the other subdivisions that were so badly done that they didnt work at all. So if it does become a trade-off between the ultimate -. And weve heard a lot of testimony that is about local people being able to buy lots. That is very compelling to me, and Im sure to most of you. And the County, as far as my responsibility, is to plan for this so that it will work in the future; and thats why we have some minimum standards that were trying to, that we want to have imposed on it. It is, it is a, an attempt to find something thats perhaps not to full County standard but is still, would be workable. The question of homes is, makes, makes the level of infrastructure much more critical. If there werent going to be any homes and it was just being sold as far lots, then the existing plantation infrastructure would be fine. Its one thing to have a road washed out and a person cant get to their farms for a few days while the road is being fixed. Its quite another thing when theres a number of people living there that may have to get to school or may have to get to a hospital. So thats, the fact that it involves the right to build a home on the lots is something that leads to having a higher level of infrastructure. So, and youre correct, and this is not an easy application. There are some applications that are very easy to say yes and some that are very easy to say no. This one has these competing issues here. And the history of the County in the substandard subdivisions of the fifties and sixties does lead one to a degree of caution in dealing with new subdivisions like this. ALAMEDA:Thank you. You have more questions? All right, thank you. If youd state your name, address, and you can proceed. TABBADA:Aloha. ALAMEDA:Aloha. TABBADA:Im Stephanie Tabbada and Im a lifetime resident here in Ka€u, born and raised here, attending the school here, and watched the plantation grow. Our whole family was raised around the plantation lifestyle. Im here before, before all of you, and I want to thank you for coming out to this. I heard about the meeting just last night, so Im not really prepared with a written testimony, but I will give you my manao. 36 I do not like the idea of this process, this permit process thats before you, because I must let you know on some of the backgrounds to how this came about. I had attended a meeting about three years ago and Mr. Savio was the guest speaker here. He was introduced to the community by Anna Cariaga, using the notoriety of his mother that she knew in the past; and it sort of like gave him an ‚inƒ to the community that you can, you know, rely on him. Okay, he came here, and the farmers had already used the property. They were raising their coffee. They proved to everyone around the world that you can do this with the limited resources, and they worked hard. And my sister has a farm here. And the people here, because they were displaced sugar workers from March of 1994, it created an opportunity for a lot of opportunists to come to the area and use them, use and abuse them by getting cause for their pockets. Im very skeptical about this project because I feel that there is something, the hidden agenda, that has not come on paper. Okay. Weknowwhatitsliketolivethroughdroughts.IworkedattheranchforSeaMountainDairy and I know what cost it, it is to even, you know, a cattle farmer. So its not the easiest thing. He came here after they had done all the work; and its not their concept of the condominium process. I heard him say that it was, it was not. He presented that to the people that he wanted to buy their property outright. I have a letter from him dated August 5, 2003; and in that letter the price raised from what his first meeting was. He said that he can guarantee the people who were farming the land that the cost per acre would not be more than $3500. Thats a nice picture. The letter in August 5, 2003, it went up to $5400 per acre. Then in September, September 15, 2003, he had a lottery. I thought that was illegal in Hawai€i. He had the owners, and I think its, to me, its extortion. You create this fear in all the farmers that they have to attend this meeting, they have to put down $100 to reserve the lands that theyre using, they were farming, theyre trying to get, make ends meet, their lifestyle is going to be in jeopardy, if they do not put down the $100 by the end of that day. He had a, this place was packed. You had people from all walks of life here. They were ready to tag their name on everybodys property. The people, the farmers were intimidated on losing their property. He had the financiers here ready to sign them up for a loan; and many of them they dont want to go and sign up because they know they didnt have the credit. When you go and lose your job a lot of them their credit rating went down. Who was going to lend them money? He had all the other people, outsiders, that were standing in line. I took a number just to see what it was like. I didnt have the $100, I could have. He writes a letter the very next day, because I did not put my $100 down the property that I signed up for was no longer mine. In this report, in his permit process he puts it down. And even in the newspaper article, what did he say? Hes going to give the opportunity to people thats farming the land, first, to get the land, and then it goes to the residents and the family; and, its already done. He prematurely did all of this before putting this piece of paper in; and thats why Im very upset. Thats very sneaky. Theres some kind of conspiracy going with whom? If he was working in the bene -, in the benefit and in behalf of the people, he shouldnt say that. He put the burden on the people; and now hes going through this process. Is the County ready to have another lawsuit on their hand like Hokulia? Are they? I dont think so. And Im a taxpayer, I dont want to be responsible. So whose burden is it? Is it going to be on the Commissioners? I know you folks are exempt. So whose is it? The developers? They, they always smell like a rose on all the projects. Look at the traffic situation that were facing 37 with, the infrastructure, lack of water. And then what happens? Utility rates have to go up because the PUC, all those people have to raise their rates to make accommodations. Are we ready to have this on our people? What will the land tax value be? There are so many unanswered questions about projects like this that people do these things for speculation. Its for profit. Dont tell me its not, because it is. What about the public access to these properties thats going to be here? What remains here, we have „ traditional and customary rights that protect our rights to go from mountain to the sea. The plantation created gates for farmers, I mean, you cant blame the ranchers. They have to keep their cattle in. But they built the fenceline right on the highway, on the road, that you cant go. Is it going to happen here? I looked at, I just looked at this study very briefly. The archaeological findings in this study, 28, 48 hours they did it? Hello? These structures that are in the community, they use a shed thats on my sisters property. Thats not the structure they built. They utilized information that you canreadaboutitinalibrary.Whodidthefindings?Whattestimonydidtheyhavefromthe people that live there? Nothing. There are a lot of questions thats going to arise from this project. Whos going to pay for the infrastructures around? And what cost will the, I have never seen a definition of what is the proper farm dwelling. Is it a million dollar house? What is it? Mr. Savio said that they could have a water tank that was going to be included with the view. So what is said through the mouth and what is put on paper, it sure doesnt look the same. So before you make a decision, I mean, Im giving you a verbal testimony, its like a verbal injunction. Whos going to be liable for the future? You talk about the Land Use Commission. We know how that was created. A lot of the people who sold the subdivisions were the ones that, were the ones that pushed to have that law or that substandard subdivision bill in the first place. They went out making monies, like our Ariyoshi, the Inabas, yeah. I mean, look at the, look at the background. And were stuck with it today. So what rules are you going to impose on our people now here in this community? They will not be able to afford $100,000 an acre. You look at all the costs, you have to fraction all the costs inside here, yeah. Mr. Savio also said that he would donate a million dollars. For what? Is it in the bank? We had the same process before with Chiddiack. And I asked him point blank would you put, deposit that million dollars into a fund for the people today; and he said no. So weve had experience in the past from people who paint the beautiful dream, and they never fulfilled on their dream. So for me to come out here, I may hurt some of the people who think that they can afford to buy what it going to be here. Condominium, no; for them to have it on their own as fee simple, yes. How credible is this letter now to say, of August 2003, its going to cost you $5400? It raised, the price raised every time and I, you know, I can bet with anybody it will never be $5400. So Im against the process and I hope you folks take it in heart. Because I can put it in letter, I can put it in writing, and I can do it in an injunction. Thank you. ALAMEDA:Thank you. Any questions for -. MCCALL:I have. ALAMEDA:Go ahead. MCCALL:Stephanie, you, you brought up a number of really good points. Actually, I wanted to ask the Planning Director, in our background report we do have a, I think, Historic 38 Preservation did say that the archaeological assessment was inadequate. Are you comfortable with the conditions that they would do a proper archaeological study? YUEN:Theres, one of the proposed conditions is that they would do the inventory study. My expectation is that most, much of the property the Historic Preservation would not require actual field work because it has been cultivated in sugar cane for many years. I am comfortable that the historic sites that may be on the property would be protected with the condition thats in there. MCCALL:Thank you. ALAMEDA:Other questions? TABBADA:I have one more thing to add, if I may. ALAMEDA:Go ahead. TABBADA:We have been suffering with floods and the floods came down through the community,andyoufolksknowthehistory,andthatswhytheymadetheretainingwallonthe gulches. You have more subdivision or development going on above where they cleared the lands to do farming, its fine. But what about the water flow after? Theyre experiencing the same problems all over. I mean, look at Kona. They destroyed the forest land; and people think thats agriculture zone. And whats happening to the roads below? Whos going to pay for the damages to the communities here if we have another flood? ALAMEDA:Okay. We want to go to, Kyle, state your name and address, and you can proceed. SOARES:My name is Kyle Soares. Im a rancher out here in the town of Hilea, thats where I reside. I have 2,500 acres of State land most in Trust, which was formerly C. Brewer and Thomas Okuna. I was brought up in East Honolulu and saw a semi-rural community transformed into a highly urban over-populated community. When Bishop Estate offered the people of Hawai€i Kai who are just like the people sitting in this room who are really grasping to the hope of owning a 5-acre piece, they was faced with the fact of buying a lease to feed the virgin. Peter Savio handled that for Bishop Estate. When I now have a chance to be a positive part in the planning process in the district of Ka€u, I reflect back on those times. People had to break their backs to possibly even buy and acquire that fee. Peter Savio is by no means, in my opinion and in my appraisal of the past, dealing with the present, concerned from the outside to come into the district of Ka€u and tell you I love you brother and sister, I care for you, Im here to help you prosper. Anybody who believes that, Ill tell you right now, thats a grave misconception. Some people who live in Hawai€i Kai for 30 something years had to give their keys to Bishop Estate and move out. This type of situation where you have association fees, like he came back up and described, road maintenance, insurance, I got 2,500 acres, around 600 head of cattle, 35 horses, plus 16 goats. My liability insurance is a $4,000,000 aggregate, $1,000,000 per occurrence. It cost me $1200 a year. I could insure that whole ahupuaa project for $1200 a year, if Kyle Soares and PK Lifestyle Company had the lease for all of that. The hidden cost in a structured subdivision-type 39 situation like this is a non-fixed cost. To be successful in business, I have learned a few things, is that youve got to understand the fixed cost and the nonfixed. That is one aspect of why I am against this project. The second aspect is we as taxpayers have to understand that 98 percent of everything we consume, we touch in the State of Hawai€i comes from the ocean. I also happen to be a full-time longshoreman for the last 22 years. It is the State and County mandate to support and perpetuate agriculture. Ive been out here for 15 years. Ive got a quarter of a million dollars of my money in my operation. If the new landowners want me out 120 days, Im gone. If the County and the State is concerned about the success of agriculture, and solidifying the cute word of homeland security, Hawai€i is not secured by any means, military presence or not. Weve got four days of food on the shelves, seven days of fuel. If theres a scare out in the ocean of a terrorist attack, you better rely on whatever you got, €cause thats all weve got. But the other point Im trying to, Im trying to get at is that if its the State, the Countys and the States obligation is to support andperpetuateagriculture,whatistheCountyandtheStatescontributoryroleinsuccessof agriculture? Well, let me break that down real quick if I can. Two components, two very fundamentally simple components to create success and/or failure. Land is number one, and water is number two. And everybody in this room who was born and raised in Ka€u, Im an outsider I came in Ka€u 15 years ago with the impression and understanding that I conform from inside out to the culture and the history of Ka€u. And I owe it to them to be proud of that and to perpetuate that also. But in order for any agricultural project out there, Hester Farms is an example, its not about agriculture producing food. The weapons of mass destruction cannot be found in Iraq, in the Middle East, because theyre here on the Big Island. You cannot be successful with a 2,000 gallon water tank on 5-acre lots. You talk, you talk about the surface water and abandonment and you folks all know with Hesters and Alili system. I have a letter here from the Water Commission that says he is not authorized to take the overflow, yet the County approved the project. Now he is selling the project for $6,000,000. And, Jeff, you approved the project. You spoke in behalf of how positive it was. So in order for us to be successful, farmers and ranchers, the County and the State has to step up to the plate and start pouring money into water infrastructure development so that our food supply can be a stable food supply, helping the homeland security. Were not secured by any means. All these proceedings continuously, Continental Pacific and Hamakua, this is one now, Hester Farms is one, we got Chris Manfreidi then from New York above Honuapo, theyre stepping on me to the batters cage next. We got John, Andy Shaw from Park City, Utah who bought makai of the lookout, hes stepping up in the batters cage next, hes warming up. This is not about food producing entities. This is about weapons of mass destruction called developers who want to exploit our culture and, and use the farming heading as the marketing ploy. These people in Moaula, some of them I helped supply the coffee seedlings to put in the ground, about 40 acres maybe or thereabouts from seedlings I had on my ranch. I pulled them out by hand, helped them and see them work really, really hard. So theyre grasping for a last chance at something that they think is going to be taken away. The Chairman of this Committee is the president of the ILWU of which Ive been a member for 22 years. He was the division director and he should have been negotiating with C. Brewer so that these people like me have a direct opportunity to buy the land from C. Brewer. We cant put our hope in Peter Savio, or Ellis Hester, or anybody else. We need to get to the, back to the basic and fundamentals of what is really the subject at hand. Agriculture is food and were flunking in 40 the food category in this state. We have for the last past 30, 40, 50, 60 years. This is land and power in Hawai€i, Chapter 2; and theyre struggling, too, you know. €Cause I know how they feel €cause in 120 days Im out, $250,000, thank you brother for putting in the fences, putting in the waterline, breaking your back, fighting fires, dealing with drug, everything I did in my operation, thanks to the people before me who have, had laid the groundwork for me to follow. But I owe it to them so I can carry the future so that, you know, for my kids, and the future generations, and the kids in this community. A lot of young kids dont want to get into farming because the chance of success is that big. Why? Because we dont have water. If tourism is a concern like it is for us, we put all the money into tourism what we have for airports, wont we be successful? The planes cannot land. The plants cannot grow if theres no water. The cattle cannot conceive if theres no water. So were here working from the back of the boat to the front of the boat. So I humbly ask you folks and, you know, theres a very few times, you know, that youll see me here to testify on things. And agriculture and the country lifestyleissomethingthatItrulylove.IvegotnoproblemifIhavetogivemylifeupforwhatI believe in. Thats how deep I believe in this area and the future of Ka€u, for we have not been given the fundamental structure to succeed. The County has not done and the State has not done what the law says, that they must perpetuate and support agriculture. And its not giving land or approving projects that have pretty picture ideas like Ellis Hester did. I remember in the final reading that Aaron Chun felt that he gave the appearance that, you know, he could believe in the guy. Nine hundred thirty eight thousand initial investment, he got it listed for $6,000,000. This is what youre going to start to see. This is a feeding frenzy that has just begun in the district of Ka€u. This is the land of opportunity. These people may have lack of knowledge, they may not understand, just like your ancient time. Im pure Portuguese, Im not a Hawaiian, so I dont want to sound like a hypocrite. But Im born and raised in Hawai€i. I understand the past, and I understand political process a little bit, and I do understand agriculture. This is not a successful agricultural proposal. So I thank you folks for your time and please consider, you know, the realistic ramifications of another, Id like, Id like to say a false prophecy right here. Thank you. ALAMEDA:Thank you, Mr. Soares. Any questions, Commissioners? SIRACUSA:Yeah. If you were king of the world what would your proposal be for these lands? What would you suggest? I want to hear a positive, you know, like, whats your alternative proposal? SOARES:Well, one thing I learned youve always got to have a Plan B, or even more, Plan Z, just like an A, B, C, A to Z, more than a B. So I think we dont want to limit ourselves to any one thing. On the State level we have a lot of State Land in the District of Ka€u that I think maybe we can have landswap, number one, agricultural parks put together, number two, and having, you know, these water systems in place that, that were in place in the past, that have some infrastructure improvements like in Keaiwa, which is up here. Waimea Water Company was brought in by us in a recent project to put in a study. And that study was high in Keaiwa to the overflow of Alili from Alili to Moaula. Moaula water system that takes care of the Village down in Moaula -. 41 And this is our other concern, that the current water system of Moaula supplies Bishop lands makai of the highway, State lands makai of the highway, Moaula Village and the coffee farmers and some of the farmers there. So in order for the Ag to be successful you asking me if I was the king what would I say for these lands, the lands have no value to them, if you look at them in the agricultural light. Real estate is another subject. If you go to Wyoming, lets say, you can buy 5,000 acres, you know, for one house. If thats the piece that you buy the ahupuaa, like in our condition, what youre buying. So housing isnt the issue. Land and water is the issue. So value of agricultural land is based upon its production potential, not the ocean view, not the warmth or the climate. If I was king and these lands were, was something that I have a say in, is that we should have long-term leases because our food supply depends on it. But youll never see government say, hey, you know what, were going, were going to take these lands and, for this district, and there will be no downzoning or zoning change of any of these lands for the next 20 years. Because you dont have to look far for the reasons for that because our food supply is vulnerable, but nobody is concerned. SIRACUSA:Thank you. SOARES:I dont know if that answers your question. SIRACUSA:It does. ALAMEDA:Thank you. Any questions for Mr. Soares? Okay, well, thank you. I just wanted to check on the final -. Did everybody get a chance to write your name on the testifying list who wants to testify? For every three testifiers, we have another addition to. Okay, Ill tell you what. It looks like we have about another half of the testifiers left. So Im thinking it might be a good time for us to take a lunch break. MARQUES:Could I request that I testify now €cause I have to be back, please? PUBLIC:School teacher. MARQUES:Please. ALAMEDA:School teacher, okay. MARQUES:Thank you. ALAMEDA:Okay. So well do this testimony and then well break for lunch and well be right back. All right, could you state your name and address and you may proceed. SIRACUSA:Swear her in, Kimo. MARQUES:Thank you very much. ALAMEDA:Oh, Im sorry, Ill swear you in. Im getting hungry, thats why. Okay, youre ready? 42 MARQUES:My name is Trinidad Marques. ALAMEDA:Im going to swear you in. MARQUES:Oh, okay. ALAMEDA:Could you raise your right hand. All right, thank you. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth on this matter now before the Hawai€i Planning Commission? MARQUES:Absolutely. ALAMEDA:Thank you, you may proceed. MARQUES:MynameisTrinidadMarques.ImagradteacheratKa€uHighSchool and am teaching, so I work with these students currently in our school. First of all, Id like to say that Im strongly against this project. I have been against this project from day one. I am a former sugar worker, a displaced sugar worker, and Ive worked there for ten years. My father, my uncle, my husband, my brothers-in-law, my brother, a lot of relatives, friends, they all worked there. I would like to thank Mr. Saviofor stating that he doesnt know anything about being a farmer because he really doesnt. I remember at his meetings, and everyone I approached, yeah, everyone I approached, there are some farmers who did agree with him, but the majority didnt. I have a letter here that we had submitted to Mr. Savio because we had disagreed with many things that were on his proposals. We didnt feel that it was for our benefit, a lot of it. At the meetings, like I said, many of us opposed it. So please dont believe that there was this consensus that everybody agreed because they didnt. Another thing, he guaranteed to move heaven and earth to make it affordable for us, $3500; first it was $2500. It was guaranteed it wont be more than we could afford it. This was just to keep us in the game. Okay? Now upon the closure of the sugar company in 1996 we were offered to lease land, but only to plant coffee up there, only to plant coffee. We currently have 25 acres of coffee. My husband was one of the first six farmers there to start this project in coffee. We invested every single penny in our farm. My husband bought equipment from Ka€u Sugar upon closure and this is the same equipment he has today. You want to talk about maintenance for the roads? He is the person who goes and maintains that road up there for the farmers from his own pocket. Sometimes we do get help from C. Brewer because they allow us to get the gravel from there, and they help some of the time, some of the time. But majority of the time, as soon as there is a flood, my husband big heart will go out there with his tractor in the storm to clear the road so the farmers can go up there and go to their farms. So please dont talk to me about the maintenance, you know. That doesnt sit right with me. Okay, a lot of stuffs were covered by my sister and Kyle about all of these strangers coming in. This was a terrible day that the farmers experienced Id like you to note. Their place was packed. We had tables lined up all over. And we had to go and sign up, and we had all these 43 strangers coming in, putting their dot on our property. I say our property because we are liable for this. Were talking accountability. He did not purchase the property yet and yet, you know, he had all these people coming here. We felt intruded, this is whatI felt, this was what I thought, to see our property up there and everybody is standing in line putting their dots, and like if youre not here, if youre not going to buy somebody else is going to take your place so put your dot there now. Colored dot, you want to see color? I have colors here. This is part of his proposal for us. Do you see the colors there? This is all I could read. Majority of it I disagree with. Now Ive gone through this. He said Grantor in standing agrees that the property  including the common element of the project is being conveyed as is, where is, with all faults, and other grantoree, and that grantor makes(inaudible).ƒYou know what that means? Im concerned. I dont trust him. Now were talking about that $1,000,000 that hes proposing instead of the site. So true. I have it here, Mr.Savio, it is true again, heres where I give that money for the roads. So what you do nowisgoingtobeaddedontothecost.Okay?Condominiumfees?Please,no.Weretalking about shares(inaudible). So the second part is I represent the students coming back. They have been informed in writing projects for the development of Ka€u. I personally tell them that development is good, but first and foremost you must be assured that you have a say in the development. They shouldnt be so overwhelming that you dont even recognize yourself when you look at yourself in the mirror. So this is what my students wrote -. They asked what about Hester? They read it in the newspaper, okay. How can the County Council and anyone involved allow what had happened? Because I want you to tell them when you go there, today, that everybody in this room today will probably wont be here years from now but they will be here to live in Ka€u and suffer the consequences of the poor judgment and decisions made. Okay, now these are present students. Mr. Sakata was talking about students in the other generation or years ago. But these are students in high school today, freshmen, sophomores, juniors, seniors, and even the middle school. So, Im going to read to you a poem. This is one of poems that they have written about the development. So please try to attempt and get the message. What is this place? Id like to know. Malia, Keoni, hey, where did everybody go? Something is wrong here. Its not quite the same. My vision gets blurred, I fear. Tell me, is this a game? Where are the footprints that I just made? My feet were not fitting, is this footprint the same? My tutu, where is the heiau? Its unfamiliar today. Where is it now? I do not see the burial ground. I just cant remember. Its not a site to be found. Forgive us, Aunty Lana, for not honoring the dead. We are striving, relating (inaudible). Tell me, is it the power or is it the money? Stop it, stop it, this isnt funny. Somebody tell me why I cant see the beautiful shore thats so dear to me. Whats all these buildings that clutter my land? Did you forge my hand? Did you cut up my hand, forge my name. Why did you come here with no indication. Do not pretend to be my friend, you intrude on our nation. Throw away your palapala if you do not succeed. This land is our land from the mountain to the sea. We must pray for the mana, e komo mai hanohano, it shall forever be our desire. And Pele is watching with raging fire, for it is she who will answer your question. What is it? Thank you. 44 ALAMEDA:Any questions, Commissioners? All right. Thank you for sharing. Thank you. Well be back at, an hour and 15 minutes, so thatll make it 1:30. Okay, 1:30. RECESSEDThe Chair recessed the meeting at 12:25 p.m. RECONVENEDThe meeting reconvened at 1:30 p.m. ALAMEDA:Good afternoon. Will the Hawai€i County Commission now come to order. We would like to continue testimony on this; and I am, again, going to read the five names. So if youll come up to the bat, Ill swear you in, and you can give your testimony. Okay? Ralph Edwards, Ralph Edwards? Okay, well skip over and Ill announce again and they can go with the second group. Theodore Wakeman, have a seat. Margaret Smith Pierce? Okay, Ron Self? SELF:Over here ALAMEDA:Good, have a seat. Jeff Silva, thank you. Sandra Reha? PUBLIC:Not here. ALAMEDA:Sandra? Jim Klein? Jim, thank you. And one more, Jo ODonnell? PUBLIC:Not here. ALAMEDA:Not here. Jo ODonnell? PUBLIC:Jos not here. ALAMEDA:Sandra? Oh, actually, Sandra, you want to testify still? REHA:Yeah, Ill testify. ALAMEDA:Okay, we can get Jo on the next round. Thank you. Okay. Will you all raise your right hand. Do you swear to tell the truth or affirm to tell the truth on this matter now before the Hawai€i Planning Commission? TESTIFIERS:I do. Yes, sir. ALAMEDA:Thank you. Well start from the left, my left, and go over that way. So will you please state your name, address, and you can proceed. WAKEMAN:Hi, my name is Ted Wakeman. Im a coffee farmer here in Ka€u and my address is PO Box 838, Pahala. There are several things Id first just like to touch, touch on and it has to do with some of the questionsthathavebeenbroughtupbybothfor,andsomeoftheindividualshere. 45 One of the things is the viability of a 5-acre Ag lot. Well, because most of you are growing coffee here, Im going to address it from a coffee point of view. In Kona most of the coffee lands or a great deal of them are Bishop lands; and because theyre not fee simple and they are leased land, they have been broken into 5-acre parcels. Probably 80 to 90 percent of the farms that supply the Kona district for coffee are 5-acre lots. The university publication states that they do not recommend more than five acres of land in a family operation for supplemental income because thats about all a family can take care of without hiring outside help. Its not necessarily going to be all of their income, not with two people working and one is a teacher and one is a farmer, etc., etc., any way you want to look at it. I think that five acre agricultural lots are very viable. And weve got a hundred years of history right there on the islands to prove that. And all youve got to do is pick up a copy of the Department of Agriculture, from the Extension Service here and, etc. Thats on that issue. On catchment, Ive lived for 15 years in Ocean View on catchment and we have about four times ofrainfallhereastheydoinOceanView,Ithinkbetterthan25inchesayear.Andifyoure living on the land and have a roof system, lets say 1,000 square foot house that has about 1200 square feet of roof, you should be able to accumulate about 500 gallons a day on a yearly basis, which should be enough to run a household. Besides that we have several water sources here that are now existing that could possibly be upgraded. And the possibility of bringing water to this Ag land is, has a lot of potential. Theres a lot of water here, about a, one tunnel over here. Weve 1,000,000 gallons a day running underground that theyre not even using. I can take you up and show you the Keawa reservoir. So as far as water availability, it is here. We do need a little bit of infrastructure, and I think that, you know, we can work together with the State and work on this to be developed, on that point. As far as, Im going to get off a little bit, just a little bit. Ive lived in Ocean View for 15 years and the roads were in terrible shape. We pay an average of $100 per lot for the road system. Our road system in Ocean View are very, very good now using blue rock and a chip system that theyve gone to. The one thing that makes Ocean View being able to work is because we have enough people because the lots are one acre lots to support the infrastructure. If we have an infrastructure that has 20-acre lots, thats only 25 percent of the number of people if we have 5 acre lots. The more people that we have in the infrastructure the more people there are to share in the cost of, of the infrastructure. So that while like some tenant 5 acre lots there, were bringing more people in that will help support this infrastructure; if we keep it all 20 acre Ag, the burden is put on far more people. So Im in favor of 5, 10 and 20 acre Ag. Im also in favor of capping it to 5 acres. I think 5 acres is viable. And as long as we set it up in such a way that were not going to resubdivide 5 acres, I think its legitimate agriculture; and I think that a lot of good products can come from someone living on 5 acres. The more 5 acre lots we have the more possibility we have of generating legitimate agriculture. One thing I was wondering about, you know, State and Federal government work for matching funds and what not. Now this subdivision is going to have a condominium sort of a project going here where the people here are going to contribute ‚xƒ number of monies towards the road infrastructure or anything -. I dont know but theres possibly a way that the State could help with matching funds or something. Because theyre going to be taxing the land, maybe some of that money could come back to help support the infrastructure out on, of these roads. I dont know if thats a possibility or not, but that would be an interesting concept. 46 We do have some people that are interested in putting a processing plant in that, a spokesman being Ralph Edwards who was going to testify today had to leave. But they want to know what the stability of the, this agriculture project is going to be. Savio isnt allowed to do this. He has got to go back to C. Brewer; and I think this is the last opportunity. I dont agree with everything with Savios project. But I think its the last opportunity that the leaseholder like myself and the other people that have lived here for generations have to buy of this land. If it goes back to Brewer, its going to be sold, its tax key, like all the other 80,000 acres they have, and who knows what it will be like. We wont be part of the process. Right now were part of this process; and I think its important to make this work and to answer some of the questions that everybody has. One of my main concerns is the road maintenance fees. Id like to see these fees nailed down where the State decides what requirements theyre going to require, what its going to cost to provide these maintenances, to maintain these infrastructures, and what its going to cost us as farasthemonthlyfeesforthemaintenanceofthis.Andifwecancapitfor,letssay,fiveyears or something, thered be a certain amount of stability as a farmer so we know what were getting into when we buy this property and know what the requirements are, at least for some period of time. And the people have brought up one other thing, sure, well, they dont want to see people turn around and sell these lots at a profit. Well, this is America and, you know, theres nothing wrong if you make that profit. These people have got generations here, most of them, not myself, but most of these people. And if they dont make it in agriculture and then turn around and then sell that land for twice what they paid for them, God bless them. That was, you know, theyre the ones that choose to participate in this. And if they can gain some financial stability by selling it, well, whats wrong with that? I dont think they should have to say, well, youve been here for four generations and you come buy this lot but if you decide that you want to turn around and sell it, youre not entitled to a profit. I totally disagree with that. Everybody else is going to make a profit, a profit or whatever comes about with all this land in time. I dont think the people that lived here all their lives and get a chance of 5 or 10 acres should be not, be denied -. (Cell phone started ringing.) PUBLIC:Good bye. ALAMEDA:Excuse me, that is good reminder. If all those that have cell phones, if you could put it on vibrate or something -. PUBLIC:Yeah. ALAMEDA:Also, also, I would like to ask if you could summarize your testimony so that everybody will have a good chance at, at, kind of with the time. WAKEMAN:Yeah, Im pretty much done. I think -. ALAMEDA:Okay. 47 WAKEMAN:I said what I wanted to point out, bring up; and I thank you for listening to me; and Ill turn this over to the next testifier. ALAMEDA:Thank you. Well, first, any, any questions from Commissioners? Yes, Commissioner Siracusa. SIRACUSA:Yeah, well, actually not exactly a question but a comment on -. Im under the impression that nobody was saying that if someone had to sell their property that they couldnt make a profit on it. I think the concern was that they shouldnt make an undue profit to hike up the cost to the point where local people could not afford to, to buy at that. WAKEMAN:But I -. SIRACUSA:I think they, theres profit and profit. And if we, take for example, if Mr. Savioistalkingabouta2percentforhimselfthenmaybeifsomebodywantedtoturnitoverwe could be looking at either because they, say, defaulted or if they decide to resell something like whatever you put into it, you know, plus 2 percent or something like that, keep it still within reach. Because the ultimate goal of this project, as it has been stated to us, if that is actually the case, is to provide homes and economic opportunities for the local farmers. And so were not only concerned about the first people signed up, were concerned about anyone else who may come along and still be on the list, you know, and be waiting for an opening if that should show up. And suddenly if, you know, the price skyrockets to 300 times what it was before, then thats not serving the goal. ALAMEDA:Thank you. SIRACUSA:So what you said, oh, this is America and everyone is entitled to a profit, my feeling would be yes, but within reason, because we have to keep our goal at focus, focus at our goal. WAKEMAN:But then thats, can I say something on that? SIRACUSA:Sure. WAKEMAN:Anyone who was interested -. ALAMEDA:Microphone, microphone, please. WAKEMAN:Oh. Anyone that was interested in participating in agriculture that worked with the sugar cane, the displaced workers, they were given first opportunity -. SIRACUSA:Right. WAKEMAN:For this. Everyone that wanted to participate in this is participating in it. Theyve got their leases; and, in fact, even if they dont have their leases any more, as long as they had a lease in 2001 theyre part of this. So I think that that pretty much addresses that. And, to, and those people that have been there for generations, if it goes up 300 times I say God bless them because theyre still going to be able to market. And weve got 80,000 acres of 48 displaced sugarcane land out there. This isnt the only subdivision or the only, or the only one thats going to come up because these other tax key maps, something is going to happen. Some people are going to be in ranching, some people are going to try to subdivide in the future and what not. I - SIRACUSA:I was under the impression that Mr. Savio had said that there were about 70 people on the list. WAKEMAN:On this -. SIRACUSA:On the list on the private, right, and thats what I was referring to. WAKEMAN:Just -. ALAMEDA:Okay. WAKEMAN:Okay,thatsit. ALAMEDA:Otherquestions?Goahead,CommissionerMcCall. MCALL:Yes.Justaquickquestion.Howmanyacresareyoufarmingrightnow? WAKEMAN:I have 7 Ÿ acres in Wood Valley under production. I have another 12 acres of lease on Savio land up above. MCCALL:Okay. And you do have a, youre on the list, on Savios list to purchase the -? WAKEMAN:Yes, Im on Savios list. MCCALL:Thank you. ALAMEDA:No, further questions, well move on. State your name and address and you can proceed. SELF:My name is Ron Self. Im general counsel of Ka€u Preservation. I live up Wood Valley. Im at PO Box 478, here in Pahala. Ive owned my ranch for about 15 years. It has been a difficult struggle over that 15 years to try to have some success on the ranch. When you, and my ranch by the way is around 25 acres. I whole heartedly support the dream of the people of Pahala being able to have a farm for their families, and be able to work in their community, and to be able to support themselves from that, in that endeavor. Unfortunately, that dream is not a reality from what were looking at today. This seems to be an attempt by a developer to circumvent the subdivision act. And were in an Ag-20 area. And its my understanding that when we say Ag-20 were talking about the minimum amount of land, not the maximum amount of land, the minimum that it should be; and thats the spirit and intent of that zoning. So now youre being asked to subdivide this down in virtually 5-acre parcels. And, to that end, it seems to me that, that what youre allowing is the change of Ka€u from a agricultural 49 community into maybe a rural community, if not an urban community. And thats, thats the big change that youre making. You did this once before on a smaller parcel. I didnt, I did not testify, I did not take a position on that, nor did our organization take a position on that. The gentleman, Mr. Hester, came in to you and told you what he was going to do for the community and how hes going to help this community. And he made all kinds of promises to each one of you. That property now, as you know, is on the market for $6,000,000 and he says, thank you, thank you for all you people that helped him do that. Now what we have here is a gentleman who does not own the land, whos coming to you and saying, look, I want you to do a subdivision, an agricultural condominium subdivision and divide this land down, I dont own it yet, but I have an option to buy it. So here we all are spending our time for someone that does not own the property himself. And why are we doing this? Wheres theprincipal?Well,theprincipalhappenstobeC.Brewer.Andthatprincipalshouldbehere, but that principal is not here. One, one issue that we might look at too, that you might take a strong look at, is the contract, the so-called contract that Mr. Savio and his group entered into with these people of Pahala. Its about 80 pages. I dont know if that has been made part of the record, but it definitely should be. Because if you look at that agreement, youll see that there is no agreement, 80 pages of no agreement. No one has the right to buy at any price. He can get out of the agreement any time he wants. He took $100 from these people, he had them sign this 80-page document without review, and then he comes to the County and said, look all this support I have, look at all the community support I have. So Mr. Savio is hoodwinking a lot of people. If you look at the cost of farming, and for those of you that do farm, you know that the cost of farming is up front. It doesnt come later. You dont get your money first and then you start farming. You spend all your money first, and you keep spending. Now the people that want to live this dream dont have a lot of money. Theyre my friends and my clients; and I want them to have that dream, but this is a false-positive dream. These people are going to, if they can do this, if you approve this the scenario thats going to happen is you are going to see a sea of foreclosure. People are going to lose their land and all the money they had, because its tough to be a farmer. Now Ted next to me, I know him pretty well, hes a hard poor guy and he is a tough farmer, and he can live on nothing, he can get buy. But most people arent like that. Most people cant do that. Most people cant live without any infrastructure. Most people need the infrastructure. Have you ever seen a group of people try to put together an organization after the fact and try to say, okay, well, were going to charge this much money for this project and everyone has got to contribute? You dont hear people saying yes, yes, yes. You hear no, no, no. And so the gentleman, Mr. Graham, there raised a really interesting point, I thought, when he was talking about Ocean View; and he said, you know, theres something similar here that has been, happened before, allowing a subdivision without any infrastructure. And what was that, 60 years ago, something like that when Ocean View first started? Sixty years ago, theres still no water there, theres still no water system, 60 years, 60 years. How many times have that property turned over, 5, 6 10 times, most of those lots? Because theres no infrastructure. So all youre doing is causing this community to suffer. And youre, and youre putting a blight on 50 Ka€u, the holiest side in Hawai€i. This is where Hawai€i started. Its the only thing left. Its the only place left in this whole state where you have the ahupuaa, the only place. So I want you to think long and hard about this because youre only going to harm the State, the County and Ka€u. ALAMEDA:Thank you. Questions? Commissioner Graham? GRAHAM:Im addressing this, I think, primarily to the Planning Department. This is the first time Ive heard today about the $100 payment that people made, and about this contract and the promise of payments of $3500 and then $5400 and all. Im just wondering if this is information that normally the applicant would provide to the Planning Department as far as the history of the project, since I dont believe the Planning Department is withholding anything from us. I mean we usually, we get pretty good background reports. Im just, I just want to express that Im a little surprised that its coming to us all brand new here today. ALAMEDA:DirectorYuen? YUEN:Well,wedidnttrytogiveablowbyblowofwhathadhappenedasfaras the events in the community and discussions of the ultimate purchase price. We, we put in the, the idea of there being a cost plus or pass through purchase price has been part of Mr. Savios proposal from the very beginning. We do have a condition that ensures that in the terms of the ordinance. I dont know that the question of how the prices may have changed over time is something that we would, weve been putting in the background report. ALAMEDA:Thank you. YUEN:And then this question, you know, on the question, they, they had some meeting, all that they have is some kind of non-binding reservation in the sense that the buyer is not obliged to buy and the seller is not obliged to sell. Thats my understanding of whats there. The seller, the seller, he does not have title to the property. So unlike, unlike a situation where you sign a contract, its not like signing a DROA where the seller is obliged to sell and the buyer is obliged to buy. The property is not, is not subdivided and it can, the individual units, whether you call them condominium units or lots, cannot be legally sold until the property has received final subdivision approval. So they have, theyve done a sort of reservation system to give people priority, but theres not a binding contract either to buy or sell the property. ALAMEDA:Okay. SELF:May I say one more thing, please, €cause this is a real important issue. ALAMEDA:Make it brief -. SELF:No one has any right to buy this property at any price right now. But, but the intent was to have these people sign this huge contract around 80 pages that says a bunch of legal gobblygook but they dont have any rights, that they dont have any price. So what price is he going to sell it to these people for? Were not talking rich people here. GRAHAM:Can I ask you what you believe the intent of the contract was if it doesnt guarantee anything for anybody? 51 SELF:I believe the intent of the contract was to have a group of people being brought before the County to say that these people want to buy this project and thats why youre going to allow them to subdivide this land. And I think the intent was not good, it was an evil intent to do this and to trick these people into believing that they could buy this property. But, believe me, I doubt that few of these people are going to be able to buy this property at the prices that will be charged. ALAMEDA:Thank you. Any other further questions? SIRACUSA:Yes. ALAMEDA:Commissioner Siracusa. SIRACUSA:OneofthethingsthatbotheredmewhenIreadthereportwasthatwe were told a 2 percent profit but it still doesnt give us any actual figures, like what, what are we talking about in terms of cost per acre. How can we figure out if this is viable for the local people to, even, given the fact, even if there was something firm in the agreement and all of that? How can, how can people know up front if they can afford it or not when all were hearing is 2 percent above cost, but we dont know what the costs are? So we dont know what the total, what it comes down to on a per acre basis, whether people can afford it or not, or whether theyll have to default after they put their money down. Im concerned about that, and any concern has been exacerbated a little bit by listening to the comments today. ALAMEDA:Thank you. All right -. YUEN:If I can respond to that briefly and Im, the nature of -. Until you, until the project has been approved and the level of infrastructure set, and the infrastructure has gone out to bid to somebody, you dont know what that is going to cost. There is no way to know what thats going to cost you. You can estimate. And in their application they do have an estimate of what it would, what the range of cost would be. We could, we could provide you with that estimate. But, if the price of asphalt is up in a year, its going to cost more. Those kinds of things will make it cost more. So, at best, you can do now is to give an estimate of what the overall cost would be. SIRACUSA:Well, granted I understand that, you know, and I understand that the best you can do is ballpark figures; but we dont even have ballpark figures. And Im wondering if were being asked to approve a pig in a poke. PUBLIC:Yes. ALAMEDA:Moving on. The next testifier go ahead, state your name, address and you can proceed. J. SILVA:My name is Jeff Silva. I live in Wood Valley; and thank you, Commission, for coming all this way to be out here to hear what the community has to say. I agree with a number of things that people have said here today, the beauty of Ka€u, trying, trying 52 to keep it beautiful, keep it rural. Its a wonderful place to live and I dont want to see it changed quickly, which this may indicate. I have a number of issues with his, his proposal. He has changed the price of what he said he has got, hes going to change, as had been testified before the Commission. He also has notably deleted one parcel from, from mention, notably 3-9-6-02:002 which he had promised the community would be dedicated as a park land. I see no mention of that in here. Okay? This is just an example of his changing his story of what he promised to the community at one meeting and then suddenly in the paperwork its different. Okay? I dont see that in the proposal. The other thing is the cost plus issue. He, he keeps going around this 2 percent thing. Well, my take on it is hes acting to get the commission for the escrow on the purchase and the sale. That would be 6 percent from when he purchased his property from C. Brewer. Thats 6 percent of what he pays for the land. When it ultimately is added on with all of these improvements, the infrastructureandsoandso,theindividualtransactionstotheindividualpurchasers,hewillget another 6 percent. So the 2 percent is, is not accurate. He is going to be getting commission. Granted, hes providing a service for that, but its not clearly stated. I think the people really understand that hes only going to make 2 percent, which sounds reasonable. But the reality is that hes going to make 6 percent on the original purchase with C. Brewer, hes going to make 6 percent again when he resells it on top of the 2 percent. Okay? Hes going to, he and Dana Kenny, the, the people who are going to be acting as brokers for this, are going to be getting that percentage. So the 2 percent I think is a bit of a misconception; and I think that he has done a pretty good job of hiding that, or at least making it not open to the public. The other issue, water has been brought up a number of times. You figure it out, the average person that needs 75 gallons a day to bathe, flush a toilet, take a shower, you know, make their coffee, they need 75 gallons a day. Two thousand gallon tank youve got a four-person family, thats seven days maximum. Theyre out of water in seven days. It hasnt rain in Wood Valley which has, gets more rain in this area in nine days. Seven days theyre out of water, theyre trucking water. This is just for the family. What about the agriculture that its supposed to be supporting? Okay? Theyve got no water to put in their tanks for, for their herbicide. Theyve got no water for their crops. And theyre already stressed because its dried out, okay. This is an issue. The other thing is, is that they, they claim that they can get 25 percent of the flow from Moaula Tunnel. Well, pencil it out. Seventy-five thousand, thats 75,000 gallons per day. They say 300,000. But what they dont state is that its their, their allocation would be 75,000 gallons. With 175 lots, thats 420 gallons a day for agriculture. Thats just a joke. You cant irrigate with 420 gallons a day. No way. You cant water cattle on 420 gallons a day. Okay? The other issue, and this is one that I brought up in a former Planning Commission meeting, is the Kalaiki Road which is, as far as the County recognizes it, a road in limbo. What Mr. Savio is, is proposing is to put a burden on the surrounding landowners to make improvements to that road to benefit his subdivision. And, once again, the County is sitting in a position to allow a private individual to take advantage of, of other individuals along that road. So the County needs to step up to the plate and either take over that road or not allow this type of thing to, to continue. If, if they put an extra burden on that road and we, the surrounding landowners along that road, are going to have to chip in to his so-called association to upgrade the roads to what youre 53 requiring him to do, that doesnt do us any benefit. That actually doesnt serve us properly; and I hope that the County looks at that very carefully. I, I would ask that the Commission get Mr. Savios oral answer and get it on the record of his, his commission standing and how much he truly will earn off of, off of this project. And I, I would say that hes going to make 6 percent, 6 percent, and then the 2 percent. So I, I would like the Commission to please, please ask that of him and get it in his testimony. Thank, thank you for your time. ALAMEDA:Thank you. Any questions, Commissioners? MCCALL:Yes. ALAMEDA:Commissioner McCall. MCCALL:I guess question to the Planning Director. Could you respond to the testifierabouttheKalaikiRoad? YUEN:TheCountydoesnotrecognizethispartofKalaikiRoadasagovernment road. Its not even, we would not recognize it as a road in limbo even. A road in limbo is, is a road thats clearly a government road but is being disputed as between the State and County. A portion of Kalaiki Road thats closer to Naalehu, there is a part of the road that is clearly a government road; and that is under the road in limbo status. This part, weve never seen any documentation that shows it as being anything but a private road. ALAMEDA:Thank you. Commissioner Siracusa. SIRACUSA:Yes. Im looking at Appendix B, Pahala Plantations Project District Permitted Uses. And Im wondering if you folks are aware that there are certain uses which would be permitted on this property, such as camp grounds, telecommunication antennas, utility substations, lets see, excavation or removal of natural building materials, in other words, such as cinder pits, that sort of thing, airport, airfield, heliports, private landing strips, bed and breakfast operations, wellness centers. Those are all allowable on this type of property regiment. Are you folks aware of that and, if so, how do you feel about it? ALAMEDA:Mr. Silva? J. SILVA:I, thank you. To be honest, I just got this paperwork this morning and havent had a chance to fully review it. I did notice, however, in Appendix B, Nos. 9 and 10 they call for a dwelling and a farm dwelling, 9 is a dwelling and 10 is a farm dwelling. So it doesnt allow both. That was the only issue that I saw immediately, although on further review the points you bring up are definitely a concern. I, I dont want more of the traffic, you know. Its already noisy. You know, if its to a minimum, thats fine. I dont want to, yeah, I just, I do have concern about that. ALAMEDA:Okay. J. SILVA:I dont want to have an airport next door either. Theres not one now. 54 ALAMEDA:Thank you. YUEN:I should mention that thislist is actually the same as the permitted uses under the current zoning, Agricultural 20-acre zoning, with some deletions, actually some things taken out. ALAMEDA:Thank you. Further questions, Commissioners? Thank you, Mr. Silva. All right, state your name, address, and you may proceed. KLEIN:Yes. My name is Jim Klein. My address is 92-1877 Ocean View. Please, before I make my brief remarks, is it appropriate or any interest of this committee at this time to allow Mr. Savio to respond to the Commission the accusation that has been made? If so, Id prettymuchliketohearwhathehastosayaboutthat. ALAMEDA:Atthecloseoftestimony,wellaskMr.Saviotocomebackupandthen itll give us an opportunity to ask him these types of questions. KLEIN:Very good. Thank you. To begin with, Im very short in residence here, just about two years. As I just mentioned I reside in Ocean View. I built a house there on the catchment and enjoy it very much. I thought it might be interesting for the committees sake to indicate how I became aware that there might be properties available here in the Pahala area for farming purposes. That happened to me by way of a mailing which I received at my post office box in Naalehu indicting that there was going to be this so-called lottery. I was definitely interested in participating in that because Ive enjoyed farming on a personal basis all of my life; and Ocean View is a very difficult place to farm, albeit I am doing farming there, not for profit but for personal needs. Nevertheless, I came to the meeting and the process was simply one where individuals that have priority over me and, excuse me if Im a little bit vague about this, but individuals that have priority over me by means of either leased land that they already had for being residents of Pahala, for being relatives, individuals in Pahala, had first pick. Second went to individuals that were in Ka€u, which is where I came in the third, whatever the pecking order might have been. I was fortunate enough to still see some property when my name was drawn. I wanted to mention this simply because not having any previous experience with Peter Savio or any of what were talking about today, my opinion has been that Mr. Savio has acted in a proprieties, forthright and honest manner in everything that has taken place. Further, I have attended, I think, no fewer than three meetings that were called after this so- called lottery; and during those meetings most of the issues, if not all that are being discussed here today, were discussed by those interested in potentially owning property, and addressed by Mr. Savio to the satisfaction of those individuals. So was, as it pertains to the individuals that are involved in this process, not that Im a spokesperson for them because I am not, I will say that I believe most of their interests in how this was going to take place eventually have been addressed to their satisfaction. I did want to make a quick comment, too, upon the issue of those individuals having an opportunity to be here. It just so happens Im one of those that makes the Kona commute. I actually go out further than the airport and leave a little tad earlier than 3:45 in the morning to 55 make that commute. I suspect that a fair percentage of those individuals are not here today because theyre working. Its unfortunate that we cant hear more of those voices. Perhaps at a future date a time will be arranged when that is more possible for them to come. A quick comment about the transfer of property should that take place after any specific individual had taken possession of it, I would not be opposed to some sort of clause limiting profit in the future for those types of sales. But, by the same token, I would say that if what this is about is opportunity for the individuals that are initially going to either be farming, or living, or doing both on the property and to take away the right to earn a reasonable profit should one be available to them, Im not sure it has the interest of this committee, but thats my opinion. Second, I wanted to draw just a quick comparison between what is going on here in Pahala and the Hester development. Mr. Hester who I do know personally, I worked for him for several weeks prior to the time that I began building my house, is a very industrious individual. And his subdivisionhasbeen,asfarasImaware,alwaysbeenoneforprofit.Thisonethatwere considering today is the total opposite of that. And I am not endorsing particularly that it is not flawed in some respects because I think the potential exists for further work to be done. Is what Im saying is that there really is no resemblance. His was for profit, this is essentially for community, whether you see that as being in the best interest of the community or not. So theres a great difference there. And I wanted to mention as well that having worked for him I had the opportunity to get to know just how his operation functions. I will indicate that, yes, it takes Mr. Hester a great deal of money and investment to make. What he has told to me is approximately $5,000 per acre or $5,000 a month on 5 acres. So hes farming now just 5 acres of the property, a little bit less, and he does it primarily with himself and with his, his good wife, with a very limited work force. Its very difficult to find work force. So that issue has been raised; and it is true, its very difficult to find people that are willing to work for $8 or $9 an hour here. Im not sure what the reason for that is, but that does exists. Nevertheless, he is able to make a good living with a fair amount of expense involved. Let me give you the opposite example of that that exists in Ocean View. There are any number of operations up there. Im personally aware of three at about the elevation that I live at, which is 3,000 an acre, oh, 3,000 feet, in which individuals are growing green crops, lettuces, spinaches, that sort of thing, and very successfully going to market on one or two acres, and making a pretty descent living doing that. So the testimony that was given as it regards the ability to make money on five acres, I think, is factual. I think it can be done on much less than five acres, if were assuming that were just talking about ones personal needs. I know that that exists in Ocean View; and I think you could very easily drive through Ocean View and see these operations in progress. Lastly, let me just conclude by saying this, again, this is my opinion, that the issue here that the committee is involved in is not one that I believe should be bogged down in the incidentals that have been primarily discussed today but should involve around that which I see as opportunity for people that are of meager means, such as myself. And I say that with the caveat that this does not insure in any particular way that its going to be successful. This does not ensure any particular way that there will not be foreclosures, because there most certainly will. It does not ensure that these individuals will last in this specific endeavor for any great period of time. But theyre given the opportunity to do so, and this is an opportunity that exists in no other way or fashion. Theres just no other way or fashion that I think this exists. 56 And in so saying, I would like to conclude by indicating that I believe that the infrastructure in terms of the paperwork that involves this whole development or subdivision is one that is appropriate to what is being attempted here. I think without doing what Mr. Savio has done, a great deal of confusion and difficulty would arise in the future. I think what is being done at this point, and as indicated in these 80 or more pages of paperwork, is to eliminate the potential for that sort of thing. And so Im very much in favor of this and anxious to have an opportunity to, and try my hand at so-called truck farming. And Im hoping that that will happen here in Pahala. Thank you very much. ALAMEDA:Thank you. Commissioners, questions? Okay, moving on. Let me just remind the testifiers again if you can keep it as brief and kind of to the point as possible, the other people in the public would appreciate that as well. Could you state your name and address, and you can proceed. S. REHA:This is on, okay. Hi, Im Sandra Reha. I live in Wood Valley and, with myhusbandandI.Andwewereluckywegotalittleunder12acreswithcitrustreesalreadyin place, coffee planted, mac nuts. I have a big, Ive a 55, 50 square foot garden. We do all our vegetables, and pineapple, and guava, and a lot of chayote. We and the pigs like the chayote. But, so I know that its both taking a lot of time to develop something like that, but also that it is possible to grow things successfully and, but its important to have a lot of help and a lot of support. And what amazes me, what I dont understand, if a property owner puts their land up for sale, you have, youre supposed to have it surveyed, you have to termite your house, you have an inspector come in, if things arent up to code you have to fix it, da, da, da, da, da. What I dont understand is how the C. Brewer Corporation can come in and utilize thousands and thousands of acres on this island, clear all the early growth, use all kinds of chemicals that we dont even know what still exists in the ground, deplete minerals, the whole thing, and nothing, they can put it on the market, and they have never had to do one thing to restore or to any way bring back the land, the various things back up to Code, or whatever. When our community, Wood Valley, was looking for assistance for water, we could not from the State as a community of 30 people get one penny or any funding for, to improve our water system or our tunnel. But C. Brewer could go in and they, was like over spent $700,000 that the State could fund them for their water program. And so here we are now with our farmers, with our local people who are very deserved, theyre industrious. Theyre probably right when they say this is our last opportunity and theres no help for them anywhere. And so I, you know, this is where I feel is the problem. I really appreciate all of you on this committee and the time you spent, and I know you really care about whats happening to this island; and I feel like it, you know, we are an island. They treat us like a mainland high growth, high density kind of place. I just saw yesterday that we can expect crude oil to go for $80 a barrel in less than two years. Okay, were looking at $4.50, $5.00 for our gasoline, a gallon of gasoline here, and this is in a short period of time. So that, you know, we as a vulnerable precious place, we do have to consider some of those things. But the main thing is lets take care of people and whatever; and, you know, I dont know how this can go on that Brewer Corporation has never had to do one thing for this island or this community. Thank you. 57 ALAMEDA:Thank you. Any Commissioners, any questions? SIRACUSA:Yes. Im -. ALAMEDA:Siracusa. SIRACUSA:Still unclear as to whether you were supporting or opposing this project. S. REHA:Well, Im not, Im neither, €cause I dont know enough about Mr. Savio and his -. I mean, I have my ideas today from things Ive heard but, so I really dont have a position. ALAMEDA:Thank you. Any questions? All right, well, thank you. You may be seated.Nextfivetestifiers,RalphEdwards.ThisisthesecondcallforRalphEdwards.All right. Second call for Margaret Smith Pierce. Okay, and, okay, moving on. How about a Sandra Reha. TORIGOE:You just did. ALAMEDA:Oh, we just did, oh, sorry. Okay, Jo ODonnell. Okay. Jo, will you have a seat. Rich Reha, Reha? Dennis Kocek, oh, Denise Kocek. Oh, sorry, Denise. Curtis Mooney, okay. You know, we have two more. We might as well just bring you guys up, Antonia Eslit and Abel Simeona Lui. PUBLIC:Hell be right back. ALAMEDA:Oh, okay, well see. Well wait for Abel, then. All righty. Could you all raise your right hand. CARIAGA:Did you call Anna Cariaga? ALAMEDA:Oh, Anna Cariaga, I got you right here. Im saving you for last. Okay, you and Abel. CARIAGA:The best for last. ALAMEDA:Save the best -. Okay. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth on this matter now before the Hawai€i Planning Commission? TESTIFIERS:I do. ALAMEDA:Thank you. All right, how about well start this way again. State your name, address and, oh, testimony. Go ahead. ODONNELL:Aloha. Its on? ALAMEDA:Yes. 58 ODONNELL:Aloha, my name is Joanne ODonnell, and I live in Pahala; and Im one of the people that is trying to buy a piece of this land. Ive been to every meeting that Mr. Savio has given -. PUBLIC:Turn the mike on. ODONNELL:All right now you can hear me. Ive been toevery meeting that Mr. Savio has given and followed everything; and I know there are many questions. We still wont know some of the answers until all thethings come in. But this is a chance for the people like me and the other people in this room that really dont have too much money that would like the family to grow up on a farm land. Now my family is, Im older, yes, but my family, we know farming; and I farmed on the mainland and I had atruck farm and had 25 acres there. But on 5 acres we were able to raise enough to supply and feed ourselves. I think farming is probably one of the bestthingstobringafamilyupinanditgivesthemgoodplacestodothingsasafamilyis together. So a farm is something good to back. One thing I have a question about is what is a farm dwelling? Whats the difference between a farm dwelling and a single family dwelling? Can anybody answer that one? ALAMEDA:Director, would you like to -? YUEN:A farm dwelling, in subdivisions made on the State Land Use Agricultural District after 1976 the houses are supposed to be farm dwellings rather than single family dwellings. Farm dwelling is defined in the law as a single family dwelling that is located on and used in connection with a farm or where agricultural activity provides income to the occupant. ODONNELL:Okay. All right. Well, as you see, Im for the whole, the whole scheme. So Ill pass the mike to next. ALAMEDA:Okay, any questions, Commissioners? Jo, thank you for your testimony. State your name, address, and proceed. R. REHA:My name is Rich Reha. Ive been in Wood Valley for 5 Ÿ years. That was my wife Sandra back there. I guess, Id like to second what John Replogle said. I agree with the thing with conditions. But it seems like the conditions are impossible to meet. And my personal background is coming from Seattle and LA and seeing, living in a beautiful area and seeing it degrade into this huge mess of stoplights, fumes, and noise, you cant see the stars. And its just, this is the third time for me. I just hate to see it happen here; and thats what is going on. This is how it happens, a little bit at a time. And as a Planning Commission, I wondered, you have a baseline? Are you planning for next year, next decade, the next century, the next millennium? I was wondering how you guys think of that, if anybody would respond to that at some point. And, all future people will have to live with whats chosen here. Its a millennium plan, you know. Were planning for the millennium, thats how it is. And it sets a precedent, just like Hester set a precedent. Maybe this is easier now because of what, Hester got his rezoning. And as for me, the whole thing, low-priced land 59 for farmers, that is a great cause. You know, Im all for that. But what will be the price of this land, thats the whole thing. If its $3,500 an acre, fantastic. Let them, the people that are already signed up to buy it, buy it. They can resell it, farm or whatever, thats fantastic. But it seems to me, land is going for $30,000 an acre. You know, Hesters is $6,000,000, comes out $30,000 an acre or more, thats the going rate up there on the hill, right there. So why is it going to be $3,500 an acre when the going rate is $30,000 an acre? It just doesnt make any sense. Whos going to take the loss? Is somebody going to sell it for a sixth of what its worth? Its like thats the whole thing right there. The other thing Im thinking cheap land is gone forever, you know. As a species, as a species weve chosen to have 15,000 babies per hour for the last 500 years, 1000 years, planet wide? So now we are 500 feet between humans on average, planet wide. Land is going to be expensive. There is no cheap land. From now on, only the rich can afford to buy land. Dont expect to provide cheap land for anybody. Thats a thing of the past. Thats only when we had a billon humansinsteadof6.5billion.Iguessthatsit. Imagainstthisbecauseitsforhigherdensityhere.Youredoublingtheamountofpeopleper square mile; and that just means more stop lights, more stop signs, more fumes, more traffic, and the place will be a zoo like LA and Seattle soon enough as it is. And like people said four days of food on the shelf at Safeway. Are we crazy? Were increasing our population when were already four days from starving? And how long will the gas last, and all the other things that we need? So why are we rezoning for higher density and more people when were a little island and we need to be working towards self-sufficiency? Thank you. ALAMEDA:Thank you. Questions of the testifier? All righty, Denise, you can state your full name and address, and you can proceed. KOCEK:Sure. Im Denise Kocek. I live in Pahala. Weve lived here almost four years now. And although Im skeptical of the project because -. I think the idea is great to enable the farmers to get hold of a relatively cheap land, but we dont seem to have any safeguards. And I think that should you approve this plan, the Planning Commission would have to put in safeguards to protect the people of Ka€u so they dont get ripped off again, €cause that seems to be in the history. For, as far as we can gather, this happened time and time again here. Thank you. ALAMEDA:Any questions, Commissioners? Well, thank you for making it brief. I appreciate that. MOONEY:Yeah, my name is Curtis Mooney. Im just another haole from haolesville who has been in the burbs for four years. So Im just expressing an opinion because the concept is great; and I firmly believe that these people who have spent their lives and their parents lives here are owed something. Because before they were planting coffee they were working the land for the corporation. So Id like to see the land turned over, somehow made available to them. But I think I have possibly an idea, something constructive. Why doesnt the patron saint of the 40 acres in lieu over there revisit the basic concept, that we get back to what everyone was originally talking about; and that was getting a farm. It has all escalated into developed subdivisions. Why dont we go back to the basic premise, rewrite the whole idea and see if its possible for anyone to afford just a piece of agricultural land without all the improvements, 60 worry about the infrastructure at a later time. What they need to do, and time is of the essence, is get a hold of the property. So maybe theres some way to simplify this, bring down the high expectations, reduce the overall costs and just get the land. That seems like it might be something, especially if Mr. Savio is honest about seeing at no or low profit, that land is turned over. Hes in a position to bargain or barter with C. Brewer. So I say C. Brewer should have something to say about this because these are all their ex-employees and these are the people who really have a claim. And the government, as government representatives you already have an investment in their coffee as you put them up to the lease and the training for growing coffee. So how about lets see it through? Thank you. ALAMEDA:Thank you. Questions, Commissioners? Okay, state your full name and address, and you can proceed. ESLIT:Okay. My name is Antonia Eslit. I live in Pahala. Im a laboratory scientistatHiloMedicalCenterandnowImworkinghereatKa€ulaboratory.Okay,firstofall, I support this project. Were glad that Mr. Savio gave us a chance to own this piece of beautiful farm of Ka€u; and I hope and pray that our Director, the rest of the community, our councilmen and Mayor will approve this project. Mr. Savio always have discussed with us and asked us what we want on this project before he presents this to the community. Twenty-seven thousand every five acres, thats very affordable for us. And I hope and pray that this will go through; and I hope Mr. Savio you will change your price about this. I hope so. If Ka€u and the Hawai€i people cannot take this piece of farm, who can afford, who can afford to buy this place? Of course the rich people. And whats the future of Ka€u? Problem about water and road, when I was in California working at the hospital, UCLA was always bankrupt because were short of money. And what they did? They asked money from the Federal government, and they were granted. And if we Hawai€i people work together, get together and work as one, Id ask something from the government for a grant for road and water. I think the government, and we have a chance to have it. And, lastly, this is our only chance to own a piece of land. So, please, approve this project; and I thank you all. ALAMEDA:Thank you. Questions, Commissioners? All right, no questions. You may sit down. Thank you for your testimony. Id like to call Abel Simeona Lui and Anna Cariaga. Ive got to swear you guys in. Can you raise your right hand, please. Thank you. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth on this matter now before the Hawai€i Planning Commission? TESTIFIERS:I do. ALAMEDA:Okay, why dont we start on the left-hand side and go to the right. How about you state your name and address, and you can proceed with your testimony. 61 LUI:My name is Abel Simeona Lui, Kupuna Kohanaiki from Kawa€a. Mahalo kea kua. Thank you for coming. We are here that our people can speak their mind. You have heard many testimony about all of this. I going take you back to the year right after 911. st October the 1, 2001, we had one of the biggest rain storms that ever hit this place. We had 30 inches of rain in 22 hours. All of this place was flooded out, totally for miles of water. Youve seen water this high and they had to reroute everybody. What you think is going happen to this place over here when you take away, down all the natural resources that have? This is Ag land. For whom? For the people. What people? The people that live over here, the agricultural land, the one that you guys when give for the people for go farm it. A lot of them when struggle. When those are that left are the ones, and theres still land that can be used. And now development want to come in and to change all of this. And you heard from everyone that they no more money. Our biggest problem is the water. And you know when get rain over here, you know where the road nobody can go through, is where I live, the place where they call Kawa€a flats. Thats where the road shut down and nobody can go over. And they shut down Punaluu, they shut down all over here. This is all hazard. So why go make something up there that going cause morepilikia?Andupthereisnotjustupthere.Theselandsareverysacredtothepeopleof Ka€u. Kalaniopuu and Keoua was our ruling chief over here, of this place called the mystic of Ka€u. Tutu Pele and everything that we have is before you. They had march lights from before, and they sure telling us something around here. And lately Tutu Pele been rumbling. We no more rain. When Tutu Pele go off, you know all that fume and all that thing, it just lingers over here. And you go bring in people with babies and kids, now you going get one other health problem. You want more people to come here, you dont even, uh, uh, they no more even facilities for the hospital? And they talking about the, uh, uh, I mean the hospital support this? Underneath what care? They tried to bring in the prison over here. I mean, it doesnt make sense. This is one farm place, ranch place. For who? For the people, these people, not the one that going get money that going come over here and change everything. And the coffee over here, we have one of the best coffee on this island. It comes from here. Okay. And we got oranges, we got all kind things that can grow here and provide it with water. Thats for the farm, thats for the ranches. Thats not to go build subdivisions and try to change this whole culture of this people. Youve got to remember weve got all kind different kind people here. For me, Im Hawaiian, Chinese, Irish, Scottish, speaking in Deutsch. I get German. I get one culture. This is one culture place, and we like keep €em culture. If the foreigners like come inside and bring their culture, please, e komo mai. This is one island, its not one continent. And we only get so much space over here. And the roads and the trucks, and look what you guys going create, you see anything that, the people -? I mean, youre going to cause chaos. Are, are this intentionally to force us guys out of our homelands from here? The way we going we cannot even go to the beach no more €cause all the beaches is being, saying that off limits to us. Right now we cannot say because we stay right in the middle. They no like us go to the mountain because they got the military out there. But what happen to our food that when we like go eat up there, the big, the goat, the mufflon or whatever we got up there? What going happen to some of us guys that they live by that, huh, the hunters? They make extra money to go and try to survive and pay their rent, and whatever. Over here people try to adjust to what they have in this community. 62 And I hope you guys take a look at this place because you guys going change everything. Ive lived here for 17 years on Kawa€a, but my ancestors from here, right here. My Tutumans father, Kimokeo Keawe. When Kalaniopuu when make, thats who said the grace over Kalaniopuu, was my grandfathers dad. He come from the ruling chief over here. Over here very sacred. They had prayers that when said over here, long time ago about this place. And they get this place up here that they call, they get rain, the water come just like, down like one rolling ball and it comes like waves, Kahewa. You dont want to go out there, bruddah, when the bugga get rain. You dont know, you talk about you think that you seen fire ball, ball running on water, you actually seen water rolling, bruddah, and running. Certain places in this area there are names for that. And Lower Moaula, you guys know all the meaning of all of these places that you guys like change? Our forefathers left it like that, for the people. Whose people? The people from over here. Thank you. ALAMEDA:Thankyou.Questions,Commissioners?Aloha,stateyournameandyour address and proceed. CARIAGA:My name is Anna Cariaga. Ive lived here all my live. I got my education right in Pahala. I graduated from this school. My mom and dad, my dad is from here. Up at Hilea,he was born and raised there. My mom is from Kona, Opihihale, Kona. Im here to support this project. And Ive heard everybody, you know, and its good that people have their own opinion. And Ive always learned to respect each others opinion. Well, my mom was a home farmer that she raised her vegetables to feed us. My dad started out as a plumber, then he went into blacksmith, and he became a journeyman welder. My father, maybe we didnt get too much of our cultural things like that but he was always, we was brought up with culture, to respect our culture. If we respect cultures, we can respect people, too. But, anyway, both of those were pure Hawaiian, and Im Hawaiian; and today Im going to be talking on behalf of supporting this project. Ive heard people come and say Anna Cariaga introduced Mr. Savio. But before I go on to that, you know, there are people that put C. Brewer down. I cannot. It employed my dad. We all had a choice. My dad told us when we were young, you have a choice to stay here and work on the plantation or move on. We all had choices. And so my two brothers decided to stay. Now there are, some would say that C. Brewer has not given back. When C. Brewer sold the old homes, the old plantation homes, it was to their employees. So they had a good chance to buy very cheap homes from C. Brewer. Water and everything was cheap. Then the next part, portion, the next phase was to get the land, which they worked with the union to purchase land and then they could go and buy their own homes to put on the land. Okay, and then when we went into farming, I had worked with Hawai€i County Economic Opportunity for 32 years. When my boss told me, Anna, we want to do a project, so I said what kind of project? He says were going to plant chili pepper. Chili Pepper? So from that to the farm is a big step. So I said, gee, now I have to use the regular clothes, puka clothes or whatever. But then I have some old friends who was, I would say haole, and theyre more of the hippies that roam. And they told me, Anna, you know, farming is so spiritual. So I said whats so spiritual about farming? And then, you know, its a dirty job. But then I found out what they meant. You see, my responsibility was to see that the chili peppers grow. And we had, our chili 63 peppers came from Korea, you know. And then so weve had chili pepper, great. But weve, the project is that were suppose to train low-income families and thats, well, were talking about welfare clients, thats all Ive done, working with them, and to build this interest of being farmers. Well, not too many of them wanted to be. Nobody on welfare all their life wants to go into a dirty job, it was a dirty job. Anyway, I ended up staying up there five years, and maybe I had one or two people who was interested. And I found out that farming is spiritual because between the earth and the heavens theres only the trees right there for you, to make sure you maintain that plant. And thats all we had to do. We didnt have to worry about paperwork, we didnt have to worry about everybody. You know, one of the bad things, again -. Hard for beat the welfare client because they was always ahead of the government. But, anyway, I worked with them. Then I did, I was part of the union, helping the union to organize the displaced workers. And that was pretty hard because they, that was in Keiawa when everybody had to do, they could do whatever farming they wanted and they was 5-acre land. It was free for the five years for the displaced workers. Well, because our company was community-wise, we had free, too-.Anyway-. ALAMEDA:Anna,makeitmorespecifictothe,thisparticularproject,yourtestimony. CARIAGA:Okay.Okay,IfeelsomewhereIstartedgoingoffalittlebit.Itscoming to there, its coming. ALAMEDA:Okay, its coming. CARIAGA:Its coming right there. Okay. ALAMEDA:Okay. CARIAGA:Then after farming over there, you see, you got to build the interest in people to like farming; and thats what I had to do, and my girls. So when the next project came out, that was coffee; and you put it separate from the truck farming. Now, because I heard some people talking about the water that was up there. There was, it was a matching fund, $500,000 from the government, from the State, C. Brewer had put in the other $500,000, which it helped build that reservoir to help the farmers. But today the farmers cannot even buy their land, okay. So now we go over to the coffee land. I have learned, and Im here representing myself and my two hanai girls. And we went to the farming, we were the only women farmers. The rest was men, husband, and whatever, okay. So we went up there and we learned. We learned everything about the farming. You know, and thanks to the State agencies who taught us about farming. Now you have to know all these things before you become a farmer. We have the Margarita Hopkins from RC&D, we had the State government, all of that, we all had training, the farmers had training to become farmers, to know the spectracides, or whatever you call, herbicide to use that is safe. Tomorrow -. When Peter Savio came out to Ka€u and I heard a remark that Anna introduced, I did introduce but I did not bring the man here. Because there were too many of these big time guys coming out, you know, were going to help you coffee guys; but the amount of coffee they wanted was 64 outrageous. We just started. How can we get three containers full, like $30,000 when we, I mean, 30,000 pounds or tons when we first started? So that was impossible. We couldnt do it, yeah, we couldnt do it. So we had people from all over, all over, telling us were going to help you, but you know what, let us buy the land and you work with us under the land. I say, hey, theres a trick to that. If I dont produce, Im out, somebody else is in. But I want to, we want to do our own farming. We want to be farmers. So when Mr. Savio came, after going through all BSs of everybody thats coming in and promise us everything else, I asked him, I did a check. I did a background check on him, his mother. And I found out his mother was okay. So I told Peter at a public meeting, you know, what, Peter, if half of that rub off of you, then I believe we can trust you; because we had heard all the rest of the BS, so whats the difference with you one more. And then he said, no, no, no, hes going to stick with us. So, in order to know what this man was doing, you have to be there at every meeting. Because when things changes we are the ones to change. Weweretheonesthatdidthatpeckingsystem,youknow,whocomesinfirst,whogoesfirst, start farmers, and all the way down the line. We also worked into another system, and because hes buying the warehouse we need a place so that we can go and do our coffee; and if we got that all in Pahala, we have everything that can take care from pulping up to the parchment, selling it and, you know, hes there to help us anyway. And so all of this was through the group when we met. Now weve had some people, they missed so much meetings they come back and they start asking information again. Hey, we cannot go all the way back again and bring you up to date. It takes time. Just like you, if ten of my kids come in and say the same thing I would say no make sense, right? ALAMEDA:Right. CARIAGA:So, you know, its one represent my ten kids. Okay, I dont have any, anyway -. But -. ALAMEDA:Okay. CARIAGA:This is what we did with Mr. Savio. Everything that he was talking, thats why if you noticed theres changes, its because he had to come back here, talk to us, and change it. The whole thing about this whole thing, uh, the whole thing about Ka€u, we dont have good leadership, okay. Here somebody comes after the meeting, so they hold the individual group meeting, and then they say, oh, I never like what he said. Thats the time you tell in the front of the meeting what you dont understand. If were going to be farmers, were going to be spending money. And Im not going to let nobody speak for me because where my money is being invested Im going to use it there. But the funny thing was one of the farmers called and they said they was going to hold their own meeting. You got a rich farmer, a rich financial person thats going to buy the land ride on Savios noise. And if you get the audacity to tell the man, you know, and then, you know, Savio is over there slapping his head, how can you guys do this, Im the one doing the contract, and youre trying to sell €em right under him. So the land not even ours and people was trying to sell 65 already, you know. But I believe in my heart, I totally believe in my heart that the people that support who is, are the farmers really want the farmers to farm. What I have been told and Mr. Savio told us when he, first couple of meetings afterwards he said if you people really want your land then do not buy anything unnecessary, because youre going to have to save so you can purchase. Thats what he told us. And then, of course, we have to live it right, we want to buy something. So, you know, everybody should be stopped, I mean, should start saving, not running around with this brand new dooleys that cost about $30,000. Thats what we can put down payment for our land, but it happens, people went out there. All of a sudden everybody is saying no more money, no more money. No, its not the words no more money. Its the word of budgeting. We need to learn as farmers, as business people how to become business people. We do not go around and say we no more money. We do if we try. You know, when I was working -. ALAMEDA:Imgoingtoask-. CARIAGA:Wehad-. ALAMEDA:Imgoingtoaskyoutosummarizeyour-. CARIAGA:Okay,sure,sure.Talkingaboutwateroutthere,welldothecatchment. And right now were doing the catchment out there. Old big freezers I put them out there so I can get water to use for fertilizer. Okay, few trips for the, they use, you know what it is, when they hear about the money, we was going into a trust fund. So when we pay this kind of big, big money, its not only for the land, its going to go into a trust fund. And the trust fund is to take care the maintenance of the road instead of every now and then we have to cry to the County that we needed them out there to fix our road. We need to learn to become independent €cause were business people. Okay? Now we do work hard, and thats where the maintenance fees come out. This is an extra job, but youre going to have to love it or really work into it. The $100 that we all put down, that went to escrow. We had to do one, we had to do one clearance to check. But I swear, now, you know Hawaiians they say, hey, Anna, our biggest land or, should that land belong to somebody else -? I said, you know what, if a Hawaiian owns that land, fine. Anybody owns it, you show me your genealogy that your ancestors own it, Ill give it back to you; and what Ill do, Ill sue, Ill sue Savio, let him go sue somebody else because they were supposed to clear title there. Okay, Im trying to summarize. ALAMEDA:Okay, summarize. CARIAGA:Okay, okay, wait. Im the last one. Give me time, okay? Oh, and this word about coming out the same, oh, man, I gotta talk first I get tired, you know. Peter Savio, really, he did not come here and say, ‚Here I am brother and sisters, Im here to help you.ƒ He didnt say that to us. He said you guys need the help, Ill try, Ill do the help, but youve got to tell me what you want. But, you know, everybody come to the meeting, theyre not listening. You know, I know youre full because you just when pau eat, and -. You know, were not really paying attention. But, give us a chance. You know, as farmers, yeah, from plantation working a daily check to a farmer putting your own money, its hard. But we need that little bit time as we go. You know, Im not going to make no statement about Jacobson, Im 66 going to save that for the Council. You guys just pass this because, you know what, my dear, all of you, if we dont get this project going, whos going to take over? We dont have a next chance. No more chance, Im telling you, you know. We sit here, we come to meetings, we really put everything out that we, you see I get plenty written down so you worry, but not everything Im going to talk about. You know, if you come, and not one of the commissioners can come, can make an effort to come to these kinds of meetings, maybe because you werent invited. Not, our Councilmen dont come, maybe because they say they werent invited. But you look your minutes, you can see. We had our senator come out here. Theyve given us support. I thank the State, you know, I cannot let down anybody. But, you know, when we do our project, its because we want to do our project; and Im only here to ask you please support this project. I believe that it is a good project; and I believe I know about Savio. I know he went through his bankruptcy. And I know everybody, big business went for bankruptcies, have the monies some place else €cause they continue business. But thats all I have. Now I looking -. ALAMEDA:Thankyou. CARIAGA:Bytheway,itsverydisappointing.Wesithere,welistentoeverybody testify and when come to our turn, everybody dig out. This is how the meetings go with Savios meetings. They come every other time, they listen half, they gone. So you dont get to hear everything. ALAMEDA:All right. Ill ask the Commissioners if theres any questions. Okay, that concludes our testimony. PUBLIC:Abel. ALAMEDA:You have a question? LUI:You know this place Ka€u, yeah. You know this place Ka€u, yeah, is very sacred, very special. We better watch out that we dont lose our aloha. When you going lose the kanaka maole you no going get aloha, you no get €um on the land, you going get hewa, hewa, you going get problems. Thank you. Thank you. ALAMEDA:Thank you. You may be seated. Thank you. You may be seated. You have a question? SIRACUSA:Well -. ALAMEDA:Commissioner Siracusa. SIRACUSA:Theres one issue that hasnt been raised and its the flora/fauna. And on page 7 of the background report it says, ‚Although there was no professional flora/fauna study conducted of the site, given the continuing and historic agricultural use of the site, rare and endangered plant species are not expected to be on the site.ƒ And yet on the previous page it mentions Hilo grass, Ischaemum Byroni, which is on the endangered species list. And so under the circumstances I really feel that we should have a professional flora/fauna study. LIU:Theres many indigenous plants up there also. 67 SIRACUSA:Well, on page 6 of the background report, 14, first bullet, one, two, third line, ‚The natural vegetation consists ofƒ, blah, blah, and it refers to Hilo grass, which is the Latin name for Ischaemum Byroniand you will find that on the endangered species list. , LUI:And even our pili grass -. YUEN:I have to say that the grass that I know of as Hilo grass is not on the endangered species list. There is a very common grass called Hilo grass -. SIRACUSA:There are two grasses called Hilo grass commonly; and thats why I refer to the Latin name. YUEN:Yes -. SIRACUSA:This doesnt tell us which one it is. It really behooves us to find out. YUEN:This, this statement comes from the book of soil types and it refers to the commonHilograss.Iwasntawarethattherewasanothertypethatisendangered.Butthisdoes refer to the common type. LUI:I want to add something to these -. SIRACUSA:But we dont know that unless we see it written in the Latin name here, so I think we really need to be very clear about that. ALAMEDA:Okay, one more comment and then we can -. Go ahead, Abel. LUI:Its to do with the pili gass. I was one of them that when help to go build the temple in Kahoolawe. And the grass came from two islands, Maui and came from over here from Ka€u, Kapapala, lower Moaula, all over here. Thank you. ALAMEDA:Thank you. CARIAGA:Id like to make a -. ALAMEDA:Thank you. CARIAGA:I dont want no pili grass on my property that I have. I get hard time get rid of the pili grass. ALAMEDA:Thank you for testifying. You may be seated. CARIAGA:Thank you. ALAMEDA:I need a five-minute break; and then well come right back, and well have Mr. Savio and the applicants come up. 68 RECESSEDThe Chair called a short recess at 3:05 p.m. RECONVENEDThe meeting reconvened at 3:16 p.m. ALAMEDA:Will the Hawai€i County Commission now come to order. All right, okay, we are our closing public testimony. And,at this time, wed like to call Mr. Savio and his representative up. Gentlemen, youve both heard the testimony today and now is your time to, any response to the testimony? SAVIO:Okay. Ill just clarify some of the points that people made, just to clarify. Theyre talking about the price of the land, and I believe one of the Commissioners had asked about that also. When we first approached the people here they said, well, what is this cost plus concept, what would the price be? And I gave them the example of if I was to sell the land to them right now today that what it cost me, the Commission and closing cost, with nothing done, no road improvements nothing, it would be $3,000 per acre. I also told them dont hold us to that price because as we go through the process prices will increase, there will be survey costs, there will be road improvement costs, there will be other costs. The price will go up. Thats wherethe$3,000pricecame. AswewentthroughtheprocessandtheCountywantedroads,theywantedcertainotheraspects of it, the price kept on going up. The price right now is somewhere in the $5,000 to $6,000 per acre, level around $25,000 to $30,000 for a 5-acre parcel; and thats pretty much where the number is. And, again, depending on how the decision is made and if there are additional requirements, the price may move up. Its cost plus. So whatever the cost of the land is, whatever the cost of the infrastructure is, thats what we basically sell the property for. In terms of the farmers, I believe there is an error in the document where we said that the farmers had to have a license. The date should have been as of April 1, 2002 is the correct date. We just were reading it and noticed. I think it said 2002, November, okay, April 2, 2002. Any farmer who has a license as of that date, their land is held for them. The woman who said she gave her $100 and her contract was cancelled, its not a contract. It was a reservation. She refused to give her address and phone number, would only put a name on the document, and would not give the $100 deposit. We, we told her we cant accept that, but we would still hold the property. Because if they had a license the property is being held. It cannot be sold to anyone else. If they cannot afford to buy, they are still going to be allowed to stay as a licensee and they will be allowed to get an option to buy; and thats one of the conditions in the approval. The other thing in terms of profit and commission, normally a developer makes a 25 to 30 percent profit on a project. As a developer, Im going to make a 2 percent commission for profit. As a developer, normally you hire a sales agent to sell the property and a commission is paid. In this case, I happen to own the real estate company so I will as the owner of the real estate company receive some additional compensation there after the agents and outside brokers are paid. But those are normal costs anyway of a project. The key is as a developer its that 25 to 30 percent profit, Im going to settle for 2 percent. So Im giving the balance of that to the community in the form of a price reduction. Thats why our price is so reasonable, because its cost plus. Even if the land appraises at $30,000 an acre, or $20,000 an acre, or $15,000 an acre, the value has nothing to do with what we sell it for. We sell it at the cost plus 2 percent. 69 In terms of the maintenance fees, they have sort of what the maintenance fee will be. The owners establish the maintenance fee, depending on what they decide to do. If they decide to have a resident manager, if they decide to hire a secretary and have a processing plant and do all these other things, the maintenance fee will accordingly go up. Again, its the direct cost for operating the property. Thats the cost. That number at the point we do actually, where we get approval and finally to market, we will have a more specific number. Because we will know how much road we have to maintain, well know exactly whats involved, well know how many lots well have, what percentage interest is involved. In terms of the 80-page contract, I believe the sales contract is three or four pages. I think what the gentleman was referring to was when we went to market, we went to market on the preliminary public report for the condominium. The State of Hawai€i requires that you give a disclosure abstract to all of the people that tells them about the property and everything you knowaboutit,themaintenancefees,andthingslikethat.Thatdisclosureabstractrunsaround 80 pages, but thats required by the State of Hawai€i as a disclosure document. So that was given to everyone who purchased, but I think theyre just mixing the two up. The contract was a reservation agreement. Our lender had asked us to show that there is an interest in people buying property in Ka€u. Now you are from the Big Island, you understand Ka€u. But in Honolulu, Ka€u is a desert, thats what they think of it is, that they dont think of it being a farm area, they dont think of it as a place that people want to be, they see it as very isolated. So our lender wanted us to show that there were sufficient buyers for the property and that they would be able to qualify for the mortgages. The 175 buyers, the majority of them are prequalified. Theyre either paying cash for their land or they have gone to a lender and prequalified for a loan. So we know that the financial ability appears to be there. There are probably 12 to 15 farmers at this point that have not been able to prequalify. And, again, we will assist them and work with them, especially if theyre licensees in terms of being able to stay on the land and buy their land, even if we have to come up with some special programs. I think those are the issues I wanted to cover. You have any? LEONARD:No. SAVIO:Okay, any questions? ALAMEDA:Commissioners, questions? Commissioner Graham. GRAHAM:Just one small issue. I know one of the gentleman said that you had removed a parcel from the property and that earlier you had promised that that would be like a park. SAVIO:When we, when we, the community decided to remove it. When we started this process we started off with, again, Im going to get shot down because Ill mix up the numbers. But lets say we started off with 6,000 acres of land and as part of that we were talking about all of the possibilities. We talked about building a warehouse, a processing center, central purchasing, an educational program, having classrooms and all of these things. The community also said theyd like to set up a museum, they wanted to have a park that would be donated to the community. I said, fine, whatever you guys want, lets make your list; and then we went through 70 it and said now this is going to cost you $500 an acre, this is going to cost $1,000,000; and they started to say forget it, drop it, drop it, the price is too high, the price is too high. This market out here is extremely, extremely price sensitive. The woman who was up earlier spoke about $20,000 to buy her 5 acres and she was saying, you know, she can afford it, its a good price and she turned about and the first thing she said to me is reduce the price. Right? Theyre very price sensitive. The community decided. And when we went from 6,000 acres to 2,000 acres, a lot of this did not become feasible, because we do not have enough land to share the cost over. The original concept of 6,000 acres would have allowed a lot more flexibility. But, you know, were getting resistance on 2,000, Im glad I didnt try 6,000. We would have gotten even more resistance, I think, on that, too. But the, that, apparently they just missed the meeting which actually was the second or third meeting that the park got dropped. ALAMEDA:Thank you, thank you. Other questions, Commissioners? Commissioner McCall. MCCALL:Yeah. If a lessee is not willing or able to purchase the property, their leaseswillstillbeineffect,thatpropertycouldbesoldtosomeoneelsebuttheleasewouldstill be in effect for its duration? SAVIO:The answer is yes, it could. But if it was sold to someone else, there would be a requirement. The person who bought it would have to be willing to sell it to the farmer at the original price with some cost, you know, whatever cost increase were there, or something like that. As a general rule in my projects and, again, I have not done one on the Big Island. Ive done over 5,000, 6,000 units on Honolulu. When we have what we call the tenants, here we call them the lessees or licensees, as a rule we will not displace any of them. If they cannot afford to qualify for a loan we will extend their lease, give them a longer lease or license. We will allow them to stay. Usually we structure a financial program or somehow we assist them. In a lot of cases, at least in Honolulu, Im very famous for my, you know, I loan people their down payment. We do seller financing, we do various things. Again, in this project theres not a lot of extra money to play with creative financing, €cause I only have the profit of about, I would think its going to be about $200,000, okay. But we will do whatever can be done to keep the farmer there, you know. And I think, I believe Chris put in a document a requirement that if the, if it is, you know, if the guy doesnt buy we have to go ahead and allow him to stay. We have to give him, I think it was five years with the right to rebuy, etc. So that we, we are attempting to protect the licensees. No licensees property has been sold to anyone but the licensee, unless the licensee said, oh, sell it to my daughter or sell it to my son. That land is being held for the licensees. SIRACUSA:Question. YUEN:Could, could I just follow up on the same question, just to -. ALAMEDA:Director. YUEN:Get a little bit more detail. As far as the terms of the proposed ordinance, such as what the County would enforce if this were passed this way, well, property, well, the licensees have to be offered the right to purchase their licensed area; and they have to be offered at the lowest per acre cost offered for any of the properties. So the total price is fixed. And the 71 properties can be, the per acre price from property to property can be, it can vary but the licensees have to be offered at the lowest per acre rate. Then if a licensee does not purchase a licensed area, they have to be offered a formal lease to the area; and that would be on this, substantially the same terms and conditions; and you remain in duration as their license, and that would take it to 2014. The terms would be the amount that they are being charged on the license agreement. And then they have to be offered an option to purchase the property for not less than five years at the original sales price plus an inflation factor not to exceed the increase in the consumer price index. If it was just a straight option at the original purchase price then everybody would wait to buy because no sense spend money now when you can spend it later. So there is some inflation factor. But, in essence, the licensee would either have the purchase right, or could stay on the lease and not buy, or have an option to purchase for five years. ALAMEDA:Any questions, Commissioners? Commissioner Siracusa. SIRACUSA:Yeah.If,well,thingshappentopeopleslivesandtheyhavetomake unexpected changes in their plans. If someone has to leave the area and has to sell their property or if they default, does the new owner come from the list, the pecking order list of people who have not, who have signed up but not filled, or can that property owner go out to the general market? SAVIO:Okay. So, if it happens prior to the closing, they cannot assign or sell their contract with their position to someone. All right? After they close and become the owner, a year or two later they want to sell, at this point then we do have no restriction on them selling. They would be free to put it on the open market and sell it. SIRACUSA:And if they default? SAVIO:If they defaulted the bank would foreclose on the property and itd probably go through a foreclosure process. If it was up for the default for maintenance fees, then the homeowners association could foreclose on it; and they could if they wanted require that they go through the pecking list. But, you know, we havent gotten that far. SIRACUSA:Okay, thats one of the things thats still -. SAVIO:Well, the, originally, when we talked about should there be restrictions or no restrictions, the community said they didnt want restrictions on resale, that if they sold their farm in five or six years or whatever, if they retired they, to them its the asset that pays for the college education, or their retirement or whatever. So they, they were not excited about the restrictions. We did discuss it. So there are no restrictions planned at this point. One more thing too €cause I just realized when Chris Yuen was talking, I had said the price was $5,600. We have a two-tier price system. The farmers that are there now, and I think, I forgot where the pecking order stops but its like the people of Pahala get the $5,600 and then the ones who apply from outside were paying a higher price, so the farmers and stuff would get a lower price. So when I say $5,600 that was the price that the farmers were getting, the other people were $7,000 an acre. But, again, its a closed prob - all of the monies go in and all of the monies , are accounted for. Any money thats left over goes to the homeowners association. It does not go to me. If we, during the sales process if for some reason the prices got raised, the money does 72 not come to me. The money stays with the homeowners. Its their money. Im only allowed my two percent. ALAMEDA:Other questions, Commissioners? All right, discussion? Any discussion? At this time, I would like to close this public hearing. I just wanted to know if theres any objections from the Commissioners on that. PUBLIC:I guess, when do we know? ALAMEDA:Let me, I wonder if the Director can advise us, or maybe Ivan, on what our next step, and how the decisions -. TORIGOE:Okay. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, basically, at this point, youve heard all of the testimony and youve heard from the applicant, youve close the public hearing and, at leastfortoday.AndyourRule16-5saysthatwithinninetydaysafterreceiptofthisapplication, unless a longer period is agreed to by the applicant, the Commission shall send its recommendation to the Council for the Councils action; the Commission shall recommend approval in whole or in part, with or without modifications, or rejection of the proposal. You could also, at this point, continue it for -. If you needed further information, if you wanted the Planning Department to work up some other proposals, you could ask for that and continue the matter. But your basic option at this point is to see if you can make a decision either to approve it, or to reject it, or if you want to modify it in some way. ALAMEDA:Okay. And that, it is the recommendation by the Department that -? TORIGOE:Well, this would be, you have the recommendation from the Planning Director and you can work with that. What you need to do as a Commission is to come up with a recommendation to give to the County Council. ALAMEDA:Okay. Thank you for that clarification. Were no longer accepting any more public testimony. (The Chair ruled Mr. Lius interruptions, at this time, out of order.) All right. So, go ahead. Question? MCCALL:Perhaps, I guess, this is time for discussion. Id like to hear what the other Commissioners say, but Ill kind of speak my mind a little bit at this point. Im definitely of two minds about this. I would really, really like to see the farmers purchase the property. I would like to see the farmers stay on the land. If we could separate farming from the living on the land, I would have no problems with this thing. I do have some grave reservations with the idea of 175 people living out there on substandard roads with no water or just on catchment. My feeling at this point, if, I know that the, what has been set up by Mr. Savio is with the blessings or with the direction of the farmers; and the farmers have said they dont want water, they dont, they want substandard roads, the want minimum. But, at this point in time, I dont feel I can vote in favor of this project with those substandard things because I feel that what would happen is the 73 property owners, I mean not, everybody else in the county is going to be whos going to pay for this. Were the ones, you know, whos going to pay. Were going to end up paying for the water, were going to end up paying for the better roads when it comes. I mean, I dont feel we need another Ocean View right here in Pahala. Thats, thats my general feeling. Id like to hear what the rest of the Commissioners think. ALAMEDA:Sure. And just for the public, this is kind of our chance to discuss this matter, and you get the privilege of hearing our discussion. So any other Commissioners would like to respond to Commissioner McCall? Commissioner Siracusa? SIRACUSA:I am very strongly in favor of farmers being able to afford to stay on the land and work on the land. I am very much of truly affordable prices, not with what the law propose affordable, you know, which isnt really in real life, but the thing that, farm prices that people can really afford. I dont see where were really being told all the hidden costs that the farmers are going to have to beliableforandstillbeabletomakealivingatthis.Granted,youknow,likedifferentkindsof crops and different kinds of agricultural ventures can manage on more or less water or on more or less land. Certainly, if youre running livestock five acres will not do it, especially where you dont have the grass growing all that fast. Im trying to balance out, you know, the desire of the farmers to have a place of their own to farm. I can understand that. I can really feel that. But, at the same time, I have this niggling feeling that theyre going to get shafted; and I dont really want to be part of the decision that does that. So Im going to be voting against this. ALAMEDA:Other thoughts, Commissioners? Mr. Graham. GRAHAM:I think my thoughts come down somewhat in line with Commissioner McCall, in particularly, but maybe I came around it from a little bit of a different place. I was certainly moved right from the beginning, I think, when Don Sakatawas speaking about, you know, wed like to have something to pass on to our kids who go away to school and stuff like that and, you know, what other kind of opportunities are we going to get to own our own land and, you know, we want to be connected to the land. That all makes a lot of sense. One way I look at it though is I, as I try to pretend, maybe like ten, its ten years from now. Can I picture from all what Ive learned from reading all this and hearing today, can I picture that up in that area theres going to be 50 or 75 families with houses up there living on that property, raising their farms, you know, making a success of this thing, even if its only half of them. I cant picture, given all what Ive read and what Ive seen today. To live up there, first, youve got no electricity, youve got a ratty road going up there, youve got to do catchment water and there isnt much water. Youve got to pay for the land and youve got to pay to build the house. It doesnt work for me. And the same thing, as a farm, like Jeff said if you separate it so that maybe there was a small subdivision more down near town that had power and had water, and then you guys got lots where you could get up there and work on it and split it somehow, to me that seems more viable; but I cant see working as a farm lot either because of the irrigation problem. So, in my head, I just cant see it coming out to be what you all are hoping for. And so its easy to say, well, this is our best chance, give us a chance at it. If I thought the chance was 74 reasonable I would say, you know, Ill go with my heart and hope that works. But it just doesnt seem close enough that my reason can say theres a good chance this will work. I dont see it working. And, you know, I dont need to talk about a lot of particulars, we heard everybody talking about it here today. At best, I can see maybe a lot of you folks could get the land and sell the land and then have some money that you can put down on a down payment on some other place and then maybe some rich guys come in and fork utilities up there and it becomes a, kind of a rich subdivision. Thats at best, but thats not too good. And I dont want to do land use changes to get to that place. And at worst, I can sure see a lot of dissention happening in this community as you start dealing with issues about the condominium, the prices, the road maintenance, whos responsible for this, whos selling the land, and who said they wouldnt. I could see it being a real hard thing for the community,too.SoIjustcantfindawinningpaththatIcansupportinmymind.Thankyou. ALAMEDA:Anyotherdiscussion?IwanttoturnitovertoMr.Torigoetoclarify,you know, we usually have nine members and weve been struggling to get quorum every now and then. So we have five members today and I wanted to ask Ivan Torigoe to explain to us how this process would work. TORIGOE:Okay, thank you, Mr. Chairman. For practical purposes, again, in order to take an action either to approve or to reject an application, you need to have at least five votes one way or the other. So if, from what, well, well have to see. If you do not have five votes to reject, for instance, apparently, if we dont, we will not have five votes to approve today, if you do not have five votes to reject, then what you end up with is, for practical purposes, having to continue it until the, at least one more meeting. YUEN:And Id just like to say one more thing that, as far as the voting, its, even if the Commission votes either today or in the future to, even if there are five votes against the application, it still goes to the County Council for final action. The action of this Commission is only a recommendation pro or con to the County Council. ALAMEDA:Commissioner Siracusa? SIRACUSA:Yeah, I just, you know, like there have been people who were, who have been concerned that a lot of people worked today and werent able to come to this; and I just want to mention that even if they cant come to a meeting, they can always submit written testimony ahead of time, and it will be read very carefully. And so if you know anyone who, you know, has any strong feelings about this subject, Im addressing this to all of you, and one way or the other and they werent able to come today or they wouldnt be able to come to a County Council meeting, please urge them to put their thoughts down on paper and send it in. Thank you. ALAMEDA:Thank you, Commissioner Siracusa. Other questions or comments? Okay. Do we have an action? 75 MCCALL:If nobody else wants, Ill put in my two cents. Id like to make a motion for an unfavorable recommendation be sent to the county Council in the matter of Hawai€i Island Development Company, Inc., Change of Zone application REZ 04-034, along with the background information and, I guess, recommendation of the Planning Director. ALAMEDA:Any second? GRAHAM:Second. ALAMEDA:It was moved by Commissioner McCall and seconded by Commissioner Graham that an, that an unfavorable recommendation regarding this application be made to the County Council. Discussion? SAVIO:Question,ontheconditions? ALAMEDA:Ifnodiscussion-? YUEN:Theyhaveaquestion.IdontknowwhattheirquestionwasbutIthink-. ALAMEDA:Okay. SAVIO:There were some recommended or, changes to the conditions? NOMURA:Microphone. MCALL:My motion was based on the conditions of the Planning Director. ALAMEDA:If theres no more -. MCCALL:Im using his recommendation but Im putting an unfavorable recommendation or, does that make sense? YUEN:Youre just, theyre just making -. MCCALL:Im using, well, does that make sense? ALAMEDA:Need some clarification on what actually is the action. YUEN:If Im understanding correctly, youre making an unfavorable recommendation. MCCALL:Thats correct. YUEN:Thats it. MCCALL:Yes. 76 YUEN:And then -. MCCALL:Okay. YUEN:If the Commission votes, if the Commission votes this way, we will attempt to summarize the discussion of the Commissioners that were against it and explain that as the Commissions reasons. If you want to put anything more than that, then you should, you should do that. Let me, let me explain what, why this question is coming up. If you make a favorable recommendation, then we take pretty much the Directors favorable recommendation and say that, and say this is why the Commission liked it. If, now when you make an unfavorable recommendation that goes against my recommendation, we also explain the reasons for the Commission. So insofar as the Commission wants to put it on the record on, wants to give us moretoexplain,thatwouldhelppreparethatletter.Butwewouldstillsendupour,wewould send up an explanation of what the Director recommended, along with the conditions of the ordinance. But it would be the Commissions recommendation to simply, to vote no, to vote against it for the reasons that the Commission has explained at the meeting. MCCALL:Yeah, that was my, what I meant. But I felt I needed to take, and put in the background report and stuff so -. ALAMEDA:Okay, staff? HAYASHI:Roll call. Mr. Chair? ALAMEDA:Nay. Wait -. HAYASHI:Commissioner McCall, and this is, this -. ALAMEDA:Excuse me, go back again. The yea is, could you explain the yea and the nay. HAYASHI:If you vote yes or aye, then it is an unfavorable recommendation that would be submitted to the County Council from the Planning Commission. MCCALL:So aye is, aye is the unfavorable. HAYASHI:So aye is no to the rezoning. ALAMEDA:Aye. HAYASHI:Okay, we all got that straight? With that, Commissioner Mccall? MCCALL:Aye, with an unfavorable recommendation. HAYASHI:Commissioner Graham? 77 GRAHAM:Aye. HAYASHI:Commissioner Siracusa? SIRACUSA:Aye. HAYASHI:Commissioner Smith? SMITH:No. HAYASHI:Commissioner Alameda? ALAMEDA:Aye. HAYASHI:Mr.Chairman,therearefourayesandoneno.Motiondoesnotcarry. ALAMEDA:Isthereanymotion,isthereanyothermotion? MCCALL:Icouldmakeamotiontocontinuethe,Iguess,continuethishearinguntil, until the next Hilo meeting, I guess; and, hopefully, well have more, more Commissioners to vote. ALAMEDA:All right. Theres, theres a motion on the table to continue this meeting. I wanted to check in with the staff. When would, if we would continue this meeting, when would that be scheduled, you think? HAYASHI:Our next scheduled meeting on the East Hawai€i side would be in Hilo, st and that would be on April 1 . We have a heavy agenda that day. ALAMEDA:Okay. There has been a motion on the table to continue this to the next meeting. Is there a second? GRAHAM:Second. ALAMEDA:Okay, there has been a second. Discussion? Okay. Call for vote, staff. HAYASHI:Okay, just for, to be clear, this would be the next meeting in Hilo on April st 1, correct? ALAMEDA:Thats correct. HAYASHI:Commissioner McCall? MCCALL:Aye. HAYASHI:Commissioner Graham? GRAHAM:Aye. 78 HAYASHI:Commissioner Siracusa? SIRACUSA:Aye. HAYASHI:Commissioner Smith? SMITH:No. HAYASHI:And Commissioner Alameda? ALAMEDA:Aye. HAYASHI:Mr. Chairman, motion does not carry, four to one. ALAMEDA:Commissioners, Id like to turn it over to Mr. Torigoe to explain it a little morewhatsnext. TORIGOE:Yeah,Ithinkatthispointbecausetherulesreallydomandatethatyou,at least, attempt to make a recommendation within the 90 days, I really think that we need to just reschedule it for the next meeting in Hilo and give the Commission a chance to act on it one way or the other. ALAMEDA:Okay? So well continue this again at our next meeting in Hilo. Okay, thats the end of this particular agenda item. We want to thank all of you for coming; and those of you who have shared your testimony, mahalo. PUBLIC:When is the next hearing? st ALAMEDA:The next, April 1 . PUBLIC:What time? HAYASHI:We havent set the time yet. We have a full agenda in the morning. Itll probably have to be in the afternoon sometime. There will be notice in the paper and the applicant will also be notified of the hearing time. ALAMEDA:Okay, thank you. The discussion ended at 3:55 p.m. Respectfully submitted, Sharon M. Nomura, East Hawai€i Secretary 79