HomeMy WebLinkAbout2003-05-27 TBLASMAN (2)
PLANNING COMMISSION CONTESTED CASE
MINUTES/HEARING TRANSCRIPT
WAYNE BLASMAN (SMA 02-03)
MAY 28, 2003
The contested case proceedings for WAYNE BLASMAN (SMA 02-03) was called to
order at 9:11 a.m. in the Royal Kona Resort, Resolution Room, 75-5852 Alii Drive,
Kailua-Kona, North Kona, Hawai`i, with Geraldine Giffin presiding.
PRESENT:Geraldine Giffin, Presiding Officer
Hannah Springer, Hearing Officer
Grant Togashi, Hearing Officer
Applicant: Wayne Blasman
Randy Vitousek, Esq.
Intervenor: Maile David
Maile David
Intervenor:
Jk`m` Gtkh Gnmt`
Mikahala Roy
County of HawaiÒi
Lester Ishado, Esq.
Christopher J. Yuen, Hawai`i County Planning Department
Ivan Torigoe, Deputy Corporation Counsel
Norman Hayashi, Staff
Phyllis Fujimoto, Staff
And approximately 7 people from the public in attendance.
APPLICANT: WAYNE BLASMAN (SMA 02-03) Î Application for a Special
Management Area Use Permit to allow the development of a 13-unit
project and related improvements. The property is located on the east side (mauka) of
Ali'i Drive in the vicinity of Hlualoa Bay and across of the Keolonhihi State Historical
Park at Kamoa Point, Hlualoa 4, North Kona, Hawai`i, TMK: 7-7-4:26.
GIFFIN:Good morning. This is a contested case hearing on the application
of Wayne Blasman, and the application is SMA 02-03. This is an application for a
Special Management Area Use Permit to allow the development of a
condominium project and related improvements. Norman, do you want to just give a
brief site overview?
HAYASHI:Okay, I think that, I believe everyone is familiar with the site so,
Madam Chair, if I may dispense with that.
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GIFFIN:Sure.
HAYASHI:Thank you.
GIFFIN:YouÓre welcome. The first order of business is to determine with
Randy Vitousek if his last witness Fielding Schultz is available this morning.
VITOUSEK:Good morning -.
GIFFIN:Good morning.
VITOUSEK:Hearings Officers. IÓll first introduce my clients who are with us
today.
GIFFIN:Yes. And, you know, it just occurred to me I havenÓt int
everybody up here either.
VITOUSEK:Oh, okay.
GIFFIN:So please go ahead.
VITOUSEK:Okay. Well, Wayne and Sue Lani Blasman are here today, as are
Jim and Geri Fox. So theyÓre the owners of the subject property and the Applicants this
morning. And the answer to your question, Madam Chairman, about Mr. Schultz is, no,
heÓs not available. And so we are pau with our case, subject to, you know, the potential
to call Mr. Fielding or other witnesses if theyÓre available or in rebuttal.
GIFFIN:Okay, and -.
VITOUSEK:And, and, so, then, I understand that if Mr. Schultz does not testify,
that his written report may not been received. So -.
GIFFIN:All right. And then we would rule on that in just a minute. I feel
very derelict in not introducing the members of the Commission. To my right is
Commissioner Hannah Springer. IÓm Geri Giffin. To my left is our Deputy Corporation
Counsel for us, Ivan Torigoe; and to his left is Grant Togashi. We serve as hearings
officers. Staff this morning, Norman Hayashi, Phyllis Fujimoto
And, once again, Randy, starting with you, the Applicant, please introduce yourselves.
VITOUSEK:IÓm Randy Vitousek and I represent the Applicant, Wayne
Blasman.
GIFFIN:Thank you. Maile?
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DAVID:Aloha, Maile David, lineal descendant of Keakealaniwahine,
Intervenor.
GIFFIN:Thank you. And the woman to your left.
DAVID:Oh, IÓm sorry, Karen Eoff.
GIFFIN:Thank you. Mikahala?
M. ROY:Mikahala Roy, representing Intervenor Klana Huli Honua. IÓm
Executive Director. My father, David Roy, is president.
GIFFIN:Thank you, thank you. Lester?
ISHADO:Good morning.
GIFFIN:Good morning.
ISHADO:Lester Ishado, Deputy Corporation Counsel, attorney for the
Planning Director; and with me is Planning Director, Christopher Yuen.
GIFFIN:Thank you. Thank you very much. IÓm going to defer to
Mr. Torigoe regarding the fact that the sixth witness for the Applicant is not here,
Mr. Fielding Schultz.
TORIGOE:Thank you, Madam Chair. At this point I believe itÓs in order for
you to make a decision regarding whether the written testimony of Mr. Schultz will be
received into evidence or whether it should be stricken. I believe the parties have stated
their positions yesterday on the record.
GIFFIN:I think itÓs a good time to review them, though, for the
Starting with you, Maile, your position on this issue that the sixth witness for the
Applicant, Mr. Fielding Schultz, is not here, although his written testimony is.
DAVID:Thank you. As I said yesterday, since now we know that
Mr. Vitousek is not going to be calling him, then I would question whether the records
could be, his testimony, is now going to be received in the record. I do have a concern
that the landscape, the subject of landscape has a lot to do with the impacts on this site,
the adjoining sites. I didnÓt know how the legal or the procedural issues on that where
you eliminate or youÓre not going to include a subject, that might have a lot to do in
making decisions.
GIFFIN:Are you referring to the ramifications then?
DAVID:I guess I am. IÓm just, you know, wondering how that would affect
the decision that is going to be made here, if without the landscaping, which I think the
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Applicant is saying will provide some mitigation, the types of landscaping that theyÓre
using. So that kind of, in my mind, puts me in a, makes me question how would those
impacts be addressed then.
GIFFIN:Mikahala?
M. ROY:In addition to what was shared by Maile David, with the e
that has been presented, including the model, the discussion for landscaping and so forth,
and, I repeat, for mitigative effort, I, too, agree that I feel that this is an important part of
understanding the application in full, especially when it comes to manners in which the
land will be affected, with what plants, that it does play a part. I am missing the
opportunity to hear this and to cross-examine.
GIFFIN:Mr. Vitousek?
VITOUSEK:I guess what IÓd like to ask is, you know, it appears weÓre going to
have a couple of days of hearing here and it appears weÓre going to go on to July, you
know. And so what I would ask -. You know, we submitted written testimonies. ItÓs not
like, you know, weÓre trying to pull some surprise or pull something out. So what I
would ask is just that if weÓre able to get the testimony on landscaping that we be allowed
to offer it out of order and that, you know, that the Commission determine at the close of
the case, you know, what the status of it is. In other words, IÓd like the opportunity to
submit evidence and testimony, subject to cross-examination. We
time in this hearing. And, so, I think that the Commission could decide that, for the time
being, itÓs not accepting the written testimony but that, you know -. IÓve made the
request to offer that witness or offer that testimony out of order; and this is a matter we
can clean up at the close of the case. And the ruling for the time being is just that, you
know, the claimant is, IÓm sorry, the Applicant is closing their case without Fielding
SchultzÓs written testimony having been accepted into evidence because he wasnÓt here
for cross-examination and, then, you know, could just leave my r
of order pending until a time when I can offer him. You know, I think thatÓs a fair way of
approaching it.
ISHADO:Madam Chair?
GIFFIN:One minute, Mr. Ishado, do you foresee that you will be a
him to come at a later date?
VITOUSEK:I sure hope so. I know itÓs important.
GIFFIN:We do, too.
VITOUSEK:Yeah.
GIFFIN:Mr. Ishado?
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ISHADO:Yes, I was going to state the position of the County. Th
wouldnÓt really have any objections to the introduction of the written testimony. But, you
know, the fact that the witness is not here, I think, would go to the weight of the
evidence. However, Mr. VitousekÓs suggestion is acceptable to the County, that if heÓs
able to bring him in, and weÓve made accommodations to all the parties, I think, that the
Chair allow, you know, Mr. Schultz to testify at some later date.
GIFFIN:IÓm going to defer to the Intervenors. Maile?
DAVID:Yes, thank you. I agree with what Mr. Ishado is saying with
respect to making arrangements to take him out of order if he do
one question. ItÓs, because of this arrangement why would Mr. Vitousek have to close
this case? Can we just leave that issue open as well until thatÓs decided, whether he -?
TORIGOE:Well -.
GIFFIN:Mr. Torigoe?
TORIGOE:Sure. ThatÓs something that is within the discretion. Well, itÓs
certainly, if the parties are agreeable, that can be done. Also, I think the door would
remain open for Mr. Schultz to be brought on as a rebuttal testifier because, obviously,
the IntervenorsÓ cases are going to be claiming that there is going to be a lot of indirect
impact, it sounds like. And, so, it would be important I think for the Commissioners to
be able to get testimony on record as to how the Intervenor would plan to mitigate those
impacts.
DAVID:I guess my question would be if Mr. Vitousek is allowed to close
his case at this point, what does that mean as far as the procee
any -?
TORIGOE:I think, like I said, this is an administrative hearing so the
proceedings are not quite as strict and rigid as it would be in court. And, so, I think in the
interest of making a full record, the parties could certainly agree to just let Mr. Vitousek,
in a way, recess his case for now; and then later on when itÓs convenient for everybody,
to bring Mr. Schultz back on.
GIFFIN:Thank you. Mikahala?
M. ROY:I agree with what has been presented.
GIFFIN:Thank you. Hannah?
SPRINGER:Just from reviewing the written testimony, I think it would be, itÓs
very important to include the landscape discussion. And I wouldnÓt know how to, I
would need guidance on how to pursue that line of discussion without the options that
have been presented to us. So I appreciate everybody applying their thoughtfulness to it
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and working towards a solution that allows to collect the most information in the most
expeditious manner. So I have no objections to recessing the ApplicantÓs case at this
time to accommodate the absence of Mr. Schultz.
GIFFIN:Mr. Togashi?
TOGASHI:Likewise.
GIFFIN:Then I will go ahead and rule that what weÓll do regardin
Applicant at this point is to recess it, hopefully, in anticipation of the presence of
Fielding Schultz, since this Contested Case is going to be carried over to the end of July.
Because, like the rest of you, I would be very hesitant to disregard or throw out the
testimony of the landscape architect when it is so important in terms of mitigation.
All right. With that resolved, then -. Maile?
DAVID:I just wanted to say that before we start with MikahalaÓs case, with
regard to witnesses -.
GIFFIN:Yes?
DAVID:I did want you to know that Clarence Medeiros will be coming or
is available today; and if all possible, if we could take his testimony at around one, which
is when heÓs available today. If itÓs okay with Mikahala and everyone else -.
GIFFIN:Mikahala?
M. ROY:ThatÓs very fine with us. May I, at this time, report to you that
Mr. Tom Cummings will not be presenting today. May I line up the potential order of
witnesses for Klana Huli Honua today?
GIFFIN:I was just going to ask you to do that.
M. ROY:David Roy in the morning.
GIFFIN:Number one.
M. ROY:Potentially, Curtis Tyler.
GIFFIN:Number two?
M. ROY:Number two.
GIFFIN:Do you have a timeframe knowing that he is not present?
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M. ROY:IÓm going to be calling him through the day today, as he
available Thursday.
GIFFIN:I know. So you have Councilman Tyler as number two?
M. ROY:Excuse me, Ms. Giffin. IÓve just been advised that he returned my
call and saying that heÓs not available today. So that means itÓll be solely Ms. Punihaole
this afternoon; and the time for that would be likely to be as late as possible. One oÓclock
for Mr. Medeiros would be fine, followed by Ms. Punihaole.
GIFFIN:Mikahala, IÓm asking if those are the three witnesses that you will
be calling today, IÓm sorry, two, really, because Mr. Medeiros is really MaileÓs.
M. ROY:ThatÓs correct. I am unclear, weÓre hoping that Mr. Cummings
might be available tomorrow; but he is not today. So it looks to be that Mr. Tyler and,
potentially, Mr. Cummings, would be hopefully, well, Mr. Tyler will definitely be
available tomorrow afternoon with Pua Kanahele, well, first, bei
Mossman, followed by Pua Kanahele, followed by Curtis Tyler.
GIFFIN:So witness number ten on your list, Kala Mossman, would b
number one tomorrow. Would you please give me that order again?
M. ROY:ThatÓs correct. Kala Mossman would be number one tomorro
followed by Pua Kanahele, and the last would be Curtis Tyler.
GIFFIN:Do you have a time sequence for, I trust that Kala Mossma
be here at 9 oÓclock?
M. ROY:Yes.
GIFFIN:And then your number seven, which is number two, thatÓs g
be today, then Pua Kanahele what time tomorrow?
M. ROY:I imagine sheÓll be following Kala Mossman directly.
GIFFIN:Okay. So, a.m.?
M. ROY:Yes, a.m.
GIFFIN:And then Curtis Tyler would be your third witness tomorrow?
M. ROY:Correct.
GIFFIN:And you said heÓs not available until the afternoon?
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M. ROY:ThatÓs correct. But heÓll make it, can make it as early as he can.
So, hopefully, thatÓll work in line with our timing. In other words, early afternoon,
hopefully? Something like that.
GIFFIN:Okay. Commissioners, any questions on that sequence? Hearing
none, Mikahala, you may begin.
SPRINGER:Madam Chair?
GIFFIN:IÓm sorry, sure. Hannah Springer?
SPRINGER:Madam Chair, I want to make sure that we all have the same
documents before us. And as much as this panel takes the Public Access Shoreline
Hawaii decision, as well as the Ka PaÒakai O KaÒaina decision, into account and as much
as we refer to those documents as we do the various County and State regulations that
have been cited, I would like to offer that weÓre additionally taking into consideration the
decisions of Topliss versus Hawaii County Planning Commission, No. 15586, dated
January 6, 1993, and the State of Hawaii versus Hanapi, dated November 20, 1998,
which is No. 19746. I think that itÓs important that we all have copies of these decisions
at our disposal to understand where weÓre all looking at and what the panel is looking at
in regard to our deliberations. Also, I appreciate the Intervenor Klana Huli Honua
including for us the unofficial version of Act 50. I reviewed the Revised Statutes 343,
which is amended in part as a result of Act 50. But I think it would be to our benefit to
have the formal and approved copy of Act 50 circulated for us to
deliberations.
GIFFIN:So, Commissioner Springer, is that a request that copies be
available or -?
SPRINGER:IÓm not sure how to handle that, if these become exhibits or if
theyÓre background information. But I think it would be important for us to have copies
of all of them somehow.
GIFFIN:Ivan?
TORIGOE:I think what youÓre referring to is just the law of the land. And, so,
I donÓt think we need to have them as exhibits unless someone wants to provide them as
such.
VITOUSEK:IÓm sorry, Commissioner Springer, is this something that youÓd
like to have now, because we can get copies made and brought down here if that would
be helpful. I mean, my office is right up the street.
SPRINGER:If you could, I would appreciate that. Again, IÓm not sure if the
formal proceedings but -.
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VITOUSEK:Sure. So you want the, so you want the opinion in Topliss, and
then itÓs the Supreme Court in Hanapi and then the approved version of Act 50. Do you
want the Chapter 343 itself as it currently exists after Act 150?
SPRINGER:I think that that we should have access to.
VITOUSEK:Okay.
SPRNGER:But Act 50 is not as easily available. IÓd be satisfied with those
three copies.
VITOUSEK:Thanks. This is Sherrie Nitta, by the way. IÓm sorry, I forgot to
introduce Sherrie.
SPRINGER:Thank you. Thank you, Sherrie.
VITOUSEK:SheÓs an associate in our office and she had done some work on
the case. And, so, she decided that since she worked on this end, the CDU application
tonight, that she would attend the hearings as well because itÓs better than just sitting in
the office.
GIFFIN:Thank you very much; and thank you, Mr. Vitousek. Mr. To
th
just reminded me of another housekeeping item regarding the witnesses for July 28.
Maile?
th
M. DAVID:Yes. Monday is July 28. My witnesses are all going to be, the
remaining three witnesses will be here.
GIFFIN:Could you please state them by name?
M. DAVID:Yes. The order will be David Forman, first; Vickie Hol
Takamine, second; and Angel Pilago last.
GIFFIN:Mikahala, were there any more witnesses from your list that you
were looking at to have present during those days in July?
M. ROY:May I add to the answer to that question tomorrow, Ms. Giffin?
IÓm sorry I didnÓt really consider that but that is an opportunity. May I answer that
tomorrow?
GIFFIN:Certainly.
M. ROY:Thank you.
GIFFIN:Norman?
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HAYASHI:If I may just interject at this point. We have not made
th
arrangements for any accommodations for the 28, so we wanted to make sure that itÓs
adefinite date. We need to secure a location first before we can determine what dates
weÓre going to have. Is that okay with you?
GIFFIN:Yes. When do you think you can tell us?
HAYASHI:I think by tomorrow we can decide. And, also, I guess we need to
find out how many more witnesses so that we can determine the number of days.
GIFFIN:Well, thatÓs what IÓm trying to do.
HAYASHI:Because itÓs very costly to rent these rooms. Thank you.
GIFFIN:Sure, sure. Mr. Torigoe just reminded me that also would be a
consideration for you, Mr. Vitousek, regarding your witness. Okay. Mikahala, are you
ready to give us opening comments?
M. ROY:Thank you. Good morning to everyone. Klana Huli Honua calls
as witness today David Roy, whoÓs president of the corporation, and heÓs here before us
ready for swearing in.
GIFFIN:Mr. Roy, will you please raise your right hand? Do you s
affirm to tell the truth on this matter now before the Hawaii County Planning
Commission?
D. ROY:I do.
GIFFIN:Thank you. Will you please state your name and your resi
address for the record.
D. ROY:My name is David Kahelemauna Roy, Jr. I am from 78-6822
Kuakini Highway, Kailua-Kona.
GIFFIN:Thank you. You may begin your testimony.
D. ROY:I would like to preface my testimony today by saying that
inconceivable in view of the sworn testimonies of the State and the County and its
officers to protect and uphold the cultural importance of the Native Hawaiians by
Section 5F of the Admissions Act, that this should ever have to come to pass is beyond
me. I cannot understand how the Planning Commission has allowed
is such a, this has been long-known to be a historic area and it should not be encroached
upon by greedy developers of the United States, with whatever fo
you.
M. ROY:Thank you. Madam Chair, may I proceed with direct questi
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GIFFIN:Yes.
M. ROY:May I ask, indulge the Commission, please, that at one of our last
meetings, I distributed the testimony, written testimony of my f
asked you yesterday if you have that at hand. Do you, by chance, and have you possibly
reviewed it, I hope, the testimony? IÓll give you a minute to come to that, everyone.
So what is included in this testimony is the page entitled, ÐKaluaokalani,Ñ testimony of
my father. And whatÓs also included is the Hawaiian original writings of an article
extracted from the Archives of the State of Hawaii, ÐKa Loaa ana o kekapu WohiÑ and
then itÓs translation by Dr. Kalena Silva, right there as well.
TOGASHI:Madam Chair?
GIFFIN:Mr. Togashi?
TOGASHI:I hate to interrupt your presentation but I was wondering, do you
think it might be a good way to start his testimony by perhaps Mr. Roy telling us a bit
about his background and experience in the Kona area? Because n
the -.
M. ROY:Thanks, Mr. Togashi. ThatÓs just what I was hoping to elicit. If I
may try in that way, I think itÓll satisfy what youÓre requesting. Thank you. ItÓs exactly
what IÓd like to do.
Mr. Roy, what is your profession?
D. ROY:IÓm a consultant on Hawaiian Affairs.
M. ROY:Are you a lineal descendant of Hawaiians who have dwelled
the area called, ÐKaluaokalani?Ñ
D. ROY:I believe I am.
M. ROY:Are you the Kahu of AhuÒena Heiau and did you restore Ahu
Heiau?
D. ROY:Yes, and I did restore the AhuÒena Heiau.
M. ROY:At the time of this restoration which was approximately Ó74-Ó75,
were there exactly, were there others in HawaiÒi that were doing
D. ROY:No one to my knowledge responded to the call of the Bishop
Museum to serve as a superintendent of this job.
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M. ROY:Thank you. Are you aware of anyone else in Hawaii with t
exception of Momi Lum, who is titled ÐKahuna Nui of MookiniÑ who holds the title of
Kahu of a heiau?
D. ROY:No, IÓm not aware. Momi Lum is the only other kahu that I know
of. However, she was not in a position to restore that heiau.
M. ROY:Thank you.
D. ROY:She was long lineal descendant of the family that was res
for that heiau.
M. ROY:Thank you. Have you ever been qualified as an expert in Hawaiian
history in cultural matters in the judicial court of law?
D. ROY:Yes.
M. ROY:Have you identified in proceedings for another contested
hearing exactly where the kÒele of Kamehameha I was located?
D. ROY:It was -.
M. ROY:Excuse me. Mr. Roy, yes or no? Did you delineate?
D. ROY:Yes.
M. ROY:Did you also establish the true term for Hawaiian Gardens
mahinaÒai and not the Kona Field System?
D. ROY:That is correct.
M. ROY:Can I ask you to hold your microphone closer to you?
D. ROY:What is that?
M. ROY:Can I ask you to hold your microphone closer to you? Tha
Will you tell us in your way your origins in Kona and the significance of the history
associated with Kaluaokalani?
D. ROY:As to my origins in Kona, I was born in the Old Kona Hosp
Central Kona; and I was then raised among many Hawaiians in the
Kainaliu, which is near the Lanakila Church. That church happened to be one whose
grounds were donated to the church by my great grandmother; and my family is well
situated in that area of Kawai Nui and MaiheÒe and Keauhou. And as to my knowledge
of these things, I might have to point out that I grew up with many Hawaiians in areas of
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Keauhou, with many Hawaiians there, particularly Mr. and Mrs. Kinimaka, who are old-
time residents at Keauhou. They were responsible in great part for relating to me the
customs and the traditions of the Hawaiian people in the area, particularly with some of
my relatives who hold a long-standing relationship with the people in Hawaii, such as
Naluahine Kahopua, Keawe Keilikina, and the Kinimaka family, Mr. and Mrs. Hauanio,
and many others in that vicinity.
M. ROY:Thank you. Madam Chair, may I approach the map?
GIFFIN:Yes.
M. ROY:I would like to ask if I can refer to the map thatÓs behind it which is
basically the same map but not shaded in.
GIFFIN:Okay. And youÓre speaking of the proposed 13-unit develo
map? Oh, I see.
VITOUSEK:The thing is on the back. I think itÓs on the back.
GIFFIN:And, then, Mikahala, if you could identify it for the record?
Mikahala, will you please identify the map first, for the record
M. ROY:This is a map that is provided to the proceedings today,
Randy Vitousek, and I might ask Mr. Vitousek if you can just verify where the source of
this map?
VITOUSEK:Well, this map is found in the record as Map Figure 2 in the Visual
Impact Assessment Component of the, IÓm sorry, itÓs the same base map as 2 except this
one has the site of, the viewplane on it. So, IÓm sorry, itÓs Map Figure 7 from the Visual
Impact Assessment Component of the application, which is ApplicantÓs Exhibit 1.
GIFFIN:Commissioner Springer?
SPRINGER:Perhaps before Ms. Roy begins, may I approach and look at the
map. I think that the writing might be more legible on that copy than it is on the one in
my binder?
GIFFIN:Yes.
SPRINGER:May I speak?
GIFFIN:Yes.
SPRINGER:I just wanted to comment that if any of the place names that are
written on the map are referred to, my copy is blurry but so is that base copy. So, I mean,
if we can be clear about any identification of place names, please?
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GIFFIN:Yes.
M. ROY:Mr. Roy, can you give your accounts now, particularly of
knowledge of the area that is cumulatively known as Kaluaokalani?
D. ROY:I know Kaluaokalani as the upper portion of the total area in that
complex. KeakealaniÓs complex is a good indicator. Keakealaniwahine Complex is in
this area and it is best, and is contiguous, originally, with Kamoa Point here, which is
probably formerly known as Kalae O Kamoa. And it is, while it i
ahupuaa of Kaumalumalu, there is a stone. I believe the name of this stone was PuÒuloa,
which marks the boundary between the Kaumalumalu and Hlualoa. And, actually, I
think the beginning of Kaluaokalani happened to be just before the bay comes into view
as you come down from Kailua. There used to a trail leading fro
KealakwaÒa on which the canoes were drawn down for final finish work a
And I believe in this area, when I was a child I was informed by the people that had the
land nearby which where they used to grow vegetables like cucumbers and watermelons
in the vicinity, and that would have been done by the Kobayashi family, at which time I
was informed that in their bulldozing work, they did unearth hum
size, not presently known. And that was in the vicinity here where they proposed to have
their growing of vegetables and watermelons.
M. ROY:Thank you. YouÓre talking about this area that is directly above
Keolonhihi, Kalae O Kamoa on the mauka side of Alii Drive?
D. ROY:Yes. I was given to understand that a large portion of that area was
bulldozed over in preparation for planting, in which they unearthed huge human bones, as
they reported to me was the size of a horse.
M. ROY:May I seek to elaborate the delineations that you spoke of for, say,
the beginning of Kaluaokalani. You mentioned a trail that went up to KealakwaÒa.
About where would that end at the sea at Alii Drive, that trail?
D. ROY:That would have ended at the beach.
M. ROY:What location today?
D. ROY:It would be under the banyan tree area, right down to the
there. The heiau that is formerly at the beach is no longer there.
M. ROY:Do you know the name of that heiau?
D. ROY:No, I was not given that name by the informant. But all I was told
was that heiau was used to finish up the canoes that came down from KealakwaÒa.
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M. ROY:Thank you. Has there ever been a survey done by the State of
HawaiÒi for the sacred sites of HawaiÒi on this island?
D. ROY:I donÓt believe so.
M. ROY:Thank you. As IÓm pointing on this map, I read the name
heiau called Hikapaia. In fact, the remnant sites that are even outside, well outside of the
area that weÓre talking about today, would be then included in an area that my father is
making reference to as this area called the Kaluaokalani.
Mr. Roy, can I ask you, where on this map is PuÒu, if you can sh
D. ROY:PuÒu was a very elusive name in my past. As a matter of
there has been no, there were no source of documentation here that I recall in the StateÓs
possession. My inquiry with the State Survey Department show that the area in which it
was supposed to be located were never marked on the map; and, so, it was impossible for
me to ascertain the portion that IÒI was talking about named PuÒu. And I later found out
was exactly where it was, through his own writings which I had overlooked long ago. In
his description of the waves at Kamoa Point, he described it as a wave that rose in like a
cats cone to the north of PuÒu in direct line with the pond there. And immediately
knowing and being very familiar with Keolonhihi in the area, IÓve recognized the
location he was talking about, then I found out where PuÒu was. PuÒu had been almost
obliterated by the creation of Alii Drive. And all those huge boulders and the rubbish
thatÓs thrown into Keolonhihi State Park was the result of the creation of Alii Drive.
Little care was given at that time for historic sites.
And PuÒu, as I recall, is that hill upon which is located KeakealaniÓs Complex; and that is
the area of which Kamehameha received his growing training in his life towards
becoming a king from the area under KalaniopuÒu and Kekuhaupuole
M. ROY:Thank you. Mr. Roy, am I pointing to, IÓd like to ask you to
specifically tell me if this is the area where PuÒu was located?
D. ROY:Yes, that is. That is the area where it was a high rise in the ground;
and here it now shows Alii Drive passing right through it.
M. ROY:So, may I be clear here, as I had asked for the record yesterday of
Dr. Rechtman, I asked if this road, what about, what this road was, and he directed that
this was the initial Alaloa. What appears to be the case is PuÒu -. What is the translation
of PuÒu, Mr. Roy?
D. ROY:PuÒu means, the word PuÒu means hill, or protuberance, or
M. ROY:Thank you. Is there an incline to this Snug Harbor property?
15
D. ROY:Definitely. As a child, one would have to climb up the stairs on a
PuÒu, quite a bit above Alii Drive. And it can seen that where the houses below Alii
Drive are located, is a, simply a continuation of that before it existed.
M. ROY:So, in other words, if we would take out all existing matter there
today and envisioned PuÒu, there would, in fact, have been a hill there?
D. ROY:Yes. And I might say that the term PuÒu refers to the ge
in which it is located. ItÓs a place name, much like Kainaliu or any other such place
name; and, as I was given to understand, it was a very populous and a thriving village in
1823 when the Reverend Ellis passed through.
M. ROY:Is the name PuÒu on any map?
D. ROY:No, and it is not on any StateÓs map that I know of. And
problem was very difficult for me to ascertain its location all these years, until I finally
determined it from the writing of John IÒI, which I overlooked.
M. ROY:Thank you. Do you refer to his work of ÐFragments of Haw
History?Ñ
D. ROY:Yes.
M. ROY:Also, is Kaluaokalani, the phrase Kaluaokalani, on any ma
D. ROY:No, it is not.
M. ROY:Your reference to understanding the existence of Kaluaokalani, in
written form, came what source?
D. ROY:The legal form, the documentation of this is in, I think, in the
publication of Reverend Thurston in one version of the trip around the island and, of
course, this one is ÐThe Polynesian ResearchesÑ by the Reverend William Ellis, who was
a member of the same party that went around the island in 1823. And he describes it as
being somewhere about three hours from Kailua at a leisurely pace and walking along the
trail; and he describes that place, also, as a very thriving village at the time in which was
connected very closely to Keolonhihi. So it was a separate know -, separately-known
name, but definitely contiguous with the area known as Kamoa Point. It is simply in a
fashion of the village.
M. ROY:Thank you.
D. ROY:In connection with that, I would like to also add that
KamehamehaÓs Royal Guard, KukaÒilimoku, was located in its own heiau in the
Keolonhihi Complex, as well as AhuÒena Heiau has been located for Kame
Kailua.
16
M. ROY:May I cite for everyone in, again, the written testimony that my
father alludes to his, as keeper of AhuÒena and his research, he brings forward the
confirmation of his belief based on oral histories and his research that the Hale O Kaili
did, in fact, house Kukailimoku rather than at AhuÒena. He make
SPRINGER:Where is -?
GIFFIN:Commissioner Springer is asking where. Can you point it out on
the map, please?
M. ROY:The Hale O Kaili is within the complex known as Keolonhihi and,
dad, IÓm going to ask you to come forward so I can go to my book
where Hale O Kaili is in proximity to Kamoa Point.
D. ROY:The writing is rather blurred here.
GIFFIN:Yeah.
D. ROY:Can I see that other map? I might be able to correlate this.
M. ROY:I will bring this to the Commissioners personally. This is the map
of Kekahuna of Keolonhihi.
NOMURA:Microphone, please.
D. ROY:I canÓt read that.
M. ROY:I will bring this right to the Commissioners. This is a map done by
Henry Kekahuna of Keolonhihi, and here itÓs clearly delineates where Hale O Kaili is.
D. ROY:This is Hale O Kaili. ThatÓs the site of KamehamehaÓs Royal
Guard.
M. DAVID:Mr. Togashi, can I pass this to you. Excuse me, sorry.
GIFFIN:Commissioner Springer?
SPRINGER:Thank you. I had a question regarding the Kekahuna map which
was listed among the exhibits that were proposed by the Intervenor. Is this then that
exhibit?
M. ROY:IÓd like to make it so. Yes.
ISHADO:Madam Chair?
17
GIFFIN:Mr. Ishado?
ISHADO:We just had a technical question on the source.
GIFFIN:Mr. Yuen?
YUEN:Yes. I believe that, let me confirm this with Mr. Hayashi.
believe that we put this in the record, the Planning Department, before the Contested
Case Hearing. ItÓs part of the Planning DepartmentÓs file.
GIFFIN:In the Background Report?
YUEN:No, it is not. It was after the first hearing but before the Contested
Case Hearing. We were supposed to put it in the file. ItÓs supposed to be part of the
record for the Commissioners. We should have it introduced, no, I think it would be best
to introduce it now as an exhibit formally, though. Is it in the record?
HAYASHI:We have a copy of that map with your name on, ÐReturn to
Christopher Yuen.Ñ So I would assume thatÓs -. I donÓt know how we got that map.
YUEN:Yeah, I think one of the Intervenors furnished us with a copy and
that it was posted at the first hearing that we had on this, and that it should be, you know,
it should be already a part of the record. But I think for sake of clarity and for the sake of
the record that it should be introduced. And I also see that thereÓs a difference between
the map thatÓs currently being shown to the Commission and the map that we had posted
at our first public hearing that we had.
M. ROY:Of Keolonhihi?
YUEN:Yes. This map is only of Keakealaniwahine. So we really should
introduce this map as an exhibit here, this map of Keolonhihi.
ISHADO:Thank you, Madam Chair.
M. ROY:Thank you.
GIFFIN:Mikahala, as Commissioner Springer has just pointed out to me on
your exhibit list, you have as No. 2, ÐAll maps by Henry Kekahun
M. ROY:Correct, yes. And in accord with what Mr. Yuen has said, they
were presented at that public opportunity, perhaps all of those Kekahuna maps; but if I
may be incorrect with saying that as well that this was not so. I mean to say by all these
exhibits that we want to enter for certainty, all the maps related to this area by Kekahuna.
GIFFIN:So then, wouldnÓt that suffice, Mr. Torigoe, or do we have to
specifically say -?
18
TORIGOE:Well, how many -? LetÓs find out how many we have that are
going to be introduced.
GIFFIN:Did you hear what Mr. Torigoe just said? How many, then, are we
speaking of when you say all?
M. ROY:I believe that related to this area. I do believe that what has been
presented to the County is all of them.
GIFFIN:Is it?
M. ROY:Including this one.
GIFFIN:So, then, youÓre saying that this has already been included?
M. ROY:IÓm not sure. Mr. Yuen doesnÓt think so. And I, in other words,
there were for this area, probably -. Perhaps Commissioner Springer can correct -.
ISHADO:Madam Chair?
M. ROY:About three.
GIFFIN:Mr. Torigoe?
TORIGOE:Thank you, Madam Chair. I just, well, Klana Huli Honua has
listed as No.3, ÐAll maps by Henry Kekahuna will be provided at the hearing.Ñ So IÓm
wondering if you have brought certain copies that you want to have entered into
evidence, such as this.
M. ROY:Thank you. I was banking on the fact that the County has in its
store. Because of our work with Roy Takemoto as a result of those earlier hearings at our
disposal you have copies of them. If youÓd like us to present t
them tomorrow or today, possibly.
GIFFIN:Mr. Torigoe?
TORIGOE:LetÓs check with staff and see what if anything we have of the
Kekahuna maps on file.
HAYASHI:As far as our files that I have with me, the only map that we have
is the map that was presented by Mr. Vitousek as Map No. 2 that we used earlier and,
also, this particular map that Mr. Yuen had referred to that shows only a portion of the
entire complex for the area.
19
M. ROY:Mr. Hayashi, I think Mr. Takemoto made sure that copies of maps
that we provided are now in your store.
HAYASHI:I have no conversation or recollection.
M. ROY:In any case, weÓll make them available. But IÓm quite co
that you have them on file.
GIFFIN:Mr. Torigoe?
YUEN:If I can just make a suggestion. The fact that the County
somewhere in the files of the Planning Department is not enough for this hearing. We
have to make it an exhibit to this hearing. If we have it and you can tell us what you
want -. If you donÓt have a copy, then we can search for that. But as having this map
here that youÓre presenting which shows Keolonhihi, I know that we havenÓt yet made it
an exhibit to this hearing. So we should make it an exhibit to the hearing so then it
becomes on the record and it can be referred to. We can make additional copies for the
benefit of the Planning Commissioners and itÓll be, then itÓs officially part of what they
can consider. So the suggestion would be that just to offer this as an exhibit now so that
itÓll be clear what your father is referring to as the testimony proceeds.
M. ROY:I understand. Thank you. May I make that movement to en
as an exhibit today. In addition, while Mr. Hayashi has a copy of the Kekahuna map of
the complex of KeakealaniÓs residence, may that be admitted. If
bring the same copies to you today.
GIFFIN:Okay. Mr. Torigoe has asked me to check with the other parties to
see if thatÓs acceptable; and if it is then, since she has her map numbered as No. 3, we
could do 3-A, B, C. Is that acceptable by the County?
ISHADO:We have no objections to that.
GIFFIN:Mr. Vitousek, sorry, I should have asked you first.
VITOUSEK:Well, I guess that, you know, the reason we have a procedure of
identifying and exchanging exhibits before the hearing is to, you know, avoid this kind of
situation. But I havenÓt seen that so -.
GIFFIN:ItÓs a beautiful map.
VITOUSEK:Yeah, and so, you know, weÓd at least like the opportunity to see
them before I can be heard on the issue admitting it in evidence.
GIFFIN:Would you like to have a short recess because Commissione
Springer wants to see it, too, and IÓve held off.
20
VITOUSEK:Yeah. IÓd probably have to see it. I, it wonÓt be long. I mean, I
donÓt anticipate a problem but I just think -.
GIFFIN:I hope not.
VITOUSEK:You know, in due diligence is, I canÓt agree to put in
evidence that I havenÓt seen.
GIFFIN:Yeah, I know, I know. I was just interjecting some humor. I think
that itÓs great. So we are in recess. Ten minutes, Mr. Vitousek?
VITOUSEK:Yeah, thatÓs fine.
GIFFIN:You might have to follow Commissioner Springer whom IÓve
holding at bay here. Ten-minute recess.
RECESSEDThe Chair called a short recess at 10:15 a.m.
RECONVENEDThe meeting reconvened at 10:45 a.m.
GIFFIN:IÓd like to call the meeting of the HawaiÒi County Planning
Commission back to order. This is our continued Contested Case Proceedings for Wayne
Blasman, SMA 02-03. When we went into recess, it was for the purpose of the
ApplicantÓs representative to examine two maps that were going to be introduced by the
Intervenor, Klana Huli Honua. And I think it was our understanding that we would
simply add these new maps; and if there is anything else that the Intervenor would like to
present under No. 3, label them 3A, 3B, consecutively. Is the Intervenor prepared to
reproduce these maps and, also, especially copies for the County, the Applicant and the
hearings officers?
M. ROY:No.
GIFFIN:I have spoken to Mr. Yuen; and Mr. Yuen has agreed that the
County will reproduce these for those said parties, including the hearings officers. So,
with your indulgence, may I ask that you give these copies to the County to take back to
Hilo. Sharon, when is, or Norman, when is, you know, an appropr
maps back?
HAYASHI:I guess in two weeks.
GIFFIN:Okay. So you will mail them to us?
HAYASHI:Yes.
GIFFIN:Okay. Now, there was a question about stamping them, Norman?
21
HAYASHI:I guess we need to know which map would be what exhibit number
for the record.
GIFFIN:The Intervenor can determine that. And then, the stamp,
concerned about stamping that one -.
HAYASHI:Yes, that could be stamped as the File Copy or -.
YUEN:May I just suggest, weÓll introduce that now. WeÓll substi
weÓll return the original to them. WeÓll substitute one of the copies as the actual exhibit.
GIFFIN:Okay, good.
YUEN:And we can, if the parties are agreeable. ThatÓs the simplest way
to do it.
GIFFIN:Mr. Torigoe?
TORIGOE:Which one is the A, and which one is the B, and -?
GIFFIN:Mikahala, we need to know which one youÓre going to designate
as A, and which one youÓre going to designate as B, and subsequent.
M. ROY:Thank you. I would suggest that the Keolonhihi map be marked
3A, the Keakealani residence map be 3B.
GIFFIN:And, since we are on this topic, you had expressed that there might
be other items that you wanted to enter in as exhibits and you had also perhaps some
photographs?
M. ROY:Thank you, Commissioner. Yes. Klana would like to admit
photographs that we have as well, and may we do so.
GIFFIN:I need to also ask for the consent or the consensus of th
Mr. Vitousek?
VITOUSEK:Again, Madam Chairman, I havenÓt seen the photographs. Maybe
if we could, you know, arrange to, if weÓre going to have a lunch break, if we could
arrange to have them where I can review whatever it is they want to offer into evidence
over lunch that. Or even a little bit before, you know, a few minutes before that would be
helpful.
GIFFIN:Okay.
VITOUSEK:But, you know, because I havenÓt seen it, I canÓt -.
22
GIFFIN:The County?
ISHADO:We donÓt have any objections. I just need to check on the copies.
Did you have copies for -?
M. ROY:I donÓt presently but I will do my best to procure them today of the
photographs.
ISHADO:Okay. Well, we donÓt have any objections.
M. ROY:Thank you.
GIFFIN:Okay. You may continue.
M. ROY:Klana Huli Honua is very appreciative to all the parties in their
flexibility with our presentation of exhibits. Thank you very much.
Continuing in the line of questions for my father, David Roy, and referring then to still
the map here of the general area of Kaluaokalani presented by Mr. Vitousek, again,
Commissioners and parties, IÓm referring to my fatherÓs testimony, Kaluaokalani, and
also the article on the investment of the kapu wohi. Mr. Roy, are you aware that this
portion of the Kona coastline is one of the largest SMA, Special Management Areas, in
the entire archipelago today?
D. ROY:I was informed of the fact sometime ago by one of our att
here. And I was not surprised because of the historical nature of this coast. This
happened to be one of the richest areas of historic sites of the whole island chain. And
there are things in here that most people do not know, particular where it comes to what
we call puÒuhonuas. And Hnaunau happens to be the only one that Kamehameha
allowed after his rise to power. As he began his rise to power, he abolished all
puÒuhonua zones, according to Sam Kamakau, throughout the islands that he conquered
for the reason that his supporters and followers were his subjects and he did not consider
them sacred. Because he was conquering all these different places, including the
puÒuhonua zones and they were being divided among his followers, he did not feel that
they were any longer sacred. So he did that. And the puÒuhonuas then became vested in
himself, his guard and his favorite wife. Consequently, we might know that Kauai is the
only place, only island which was not conquered and which still has its remaining, its
original puÒuhonua zones. So Hnaunau was allowed to remain because it was so well
built over, and was so ancient, and has a good single spot. It
followers as such and, so, he allowed that to remain. Otherwise, he changed it.
M. ROY:When areas such as the sacredness at the puÒuhonua at Keohihi
as history reports at the turn of the century fell out of use by way of the abolition of a
kapu system, would you say that the faith of the original people fell out of use or fell out
practice?
23
D. ROY:Far from it. Our people were accustomed to following the
wherever they went and however they chose; and there were no questions about that.
However, as to abolishing their former beliefs, just because of the breaking of a kapu it
did not mean that his people did not retain their beliefs, and went underground as a result.
Many of them did throughout the ages, up until the Second World War. My experiences
have been that there seemed to have been a groping among many of them. Many
Hawaiians that I was stationed with during the service were subject to those feelings.
And they would often relate to me their beliefs about the Òamakuas and the ancient gods,
but they did not necessarily sanctify it or any, or believe in any of the human sacrifices
that went on. They were glad to get rid of them. However, their ancient beliefs still
remain in their hearts. And even today whenever I ask the question, do you deny your
Òamakuas, and none of them would agree. Do you deny the presence of mana? None of
them would agree. And, so, I feel that the presence is still within our Hawaiian people.
And, unfortunately, they were not given the choice of a religion and, therefore, what they
originally had remains in their hearts.
The feeling of mana is today acknowledged by our scientists who acknowledge that, also,
the most powerful source in the world is found in every single bit of matter in the world,
namely, the atom. So how can you deny the Hawaiian feeling of m
exists, even to that of a stone? There is everything, thereÓs life in everything around
them. And I believe that that was a very true belief; and my feelings go accordingly
because none of our religions today allow for mana.
M. ROY:Thank you. Dad, at PuÒuhonua, would you say the land ret
memory of its sacredness?
D. ROY:Not at all.
M. ROY:At PuÒuhonua O Hnaunau?
D. ROY:Not at all. It has, PuÒuhonua is representative of what was there
when Keawe kui kekai was alive and when John IÒi wrote about it. It is after many
centuries of use and it is even something that relates to things that donÓt exist any longer.
Those puÒuhonua that did exist were, an example of that would have been at
Kaumalumalu where the former Planning Director refused to acknowledge the fact that it
was a puÒuhonua that was allowed for development; and, unfortunately, she had, had to
wait, authority and it became a development to the detriment of hihi, because
that was all one part at one time.
M. ROY:Can you show on the map where youÓre meaning, at
Kaumalumalu?
D. ROY:This was a puÒuhonua here and this is a flat that related to this part,
it was part of this area. And this is now a development by Alohi Kai Subdivision and it
has obliterated all signs of what used to be. This was the area where, traditionally, spears
would be thrown at the arriving chief as a demonstration. And, in fact, as tradition goes,
24
this is the area where Keawemauhili was, in the area where he landed when he escaped
from the battle of Mokuohai, and he took his family to this little canoe landing. There he
was received by the priest from this puÒuhonua who guided him to
is now called the Judd Trail. It was formerly another name by the Hawaiian people but it
was always used. And this trail went approximately to this point up to what is known as
the Huallai, the base of Huallai to the Ahua Umi location and that, the trail of Keawe
Mauhili led along Mauna Kea down to PÒauhau, and from PÒauhau back to Hilo; and
that is how he escaped. His daughter was left in Kona crying, and left in an ÒamauÒu
(fern) bush, and was, she was left there for the reason that she was, her crying would
reveal their location to the army as they were running away. And, therefore, she was
found by a warrior of Kamehameha who, full of pity, picked her up and took her home;
and she was raised at KahaluÒu in Kona.
M. ROY:What was her name?
D. ROY:KapiÒolani, the one who defied Pele at the Volcano.
M. ROY:Where did that happen? Where was she left?
D. ROY:Beg your pardon?
M. ROY:Where was she left, if you can identify that?
D. ROY:She was left up in the upper trails, the ÒamauÒu (fern) belt and at
that time, on the way to Huallai.
M. ROY:Thank you.
D. ROY:And, so, she was 17 years later reconciled with her mothe
M. ROY:Thank you. Referring to my fatherÓs testimony, again, do
speak of this coast as being home to many aliÒi. As you have brought forward an article
talking about sacredness in the way of our belief system, can you explain, and
Commissioners are referring to that article, can you explain in the old, in the original
faith, as it evolved of Hawaiians, what the investment of a kapu, what form that took?
Was it a tangible form, or otherwise?
D. ROY:A kapu, let us consider the word kapu itself. Kapu relat
something which is believed to be for the Gods and, therefore, not to be touched or
handled by human beings, be it itÓs beyond their power. And so it is really not forbidden,
the term is not to forbid anything but it is to be reserved for the Gods and set aside; so,
therefore, not to be handled by human beings. And in this case, HawaiÒi was a kingdom
all the time run by these aliÒi that we have traditionally; and they always were subject to
the kapu moi up to that time. However, after the daughter of Keakamahana, who was
Keakealaniwahine, after she grew up she was married to her half-brother, who was the
son of her father by way of the daughter of Kakuhewa of OÒahu; and her name is so long
25
in Hawaiian, I do not try to pronounce it too easily. IÓve run out of practice. However,
the son, Kaneekauewilani was eventually the husband of Keakealaniwahine and he was a
grandson of Kakuhewa. Now, at that time, the kapu wohi was the most exalted rank in
OÒahu and was not used in HawaiÒi at that time. And, so, when Keakealani and her
husband were united, he invested in her the kapu wohi from Oahu;
privileged to invest that in her descendants.
M. ROY:May I ask you, how is that kapu conveyed? Is it a tangible form of
conveyance, or otherwise?
D. ROY:A kapu is never tangible as such. It is an intangible cultural aspect
and a rank held by the aliÒi.
M. ROY:Would you indeed say spiritual?
D. ROY:Very much so.
M. ROY:Would you define kapu moi?
D. ROY:A kapu moi would mean that you would have to prostrate,
prostrate yourself in the presence of any of belongings of the aliÒi that bore that rank,
such as Kalaniamaumau, who received it from Keakealaniwahine at
Kaluaokalani.
M. ROY:To repeat and to be clear, did you say that that kapu was received
at Kaluaokalani?
D. ROY:That kapu was invested in Kaiamamau at Kaluaokalani, that is
where Keakealaniwahine lived.
M. ROY:And to be correct, was that the kapu wohi then?
D. ROY:That was the kapu wohi but the kapu moi was invested by
Keakealaniwahine to Kahiamamau. The kapu moi, the kapu wohi, the kapu wohi, excuse
me, was invested in her grandchild, Keaumokunui Kalanikeaumoku, and he was the first
recipient of that kapu. And the second after that was, I think, IÓm not sure if it was
invested in the father, but it was eventually invested in Kamehameha and in all of his
family. Now they bore that rank, kapu wohi. The meaning of the
it never has to bow down to any member of the rank, kapu moi. S
the kapu moi came by or the chief came by, they stood up in his
have to bow like the others. That was a significance of the kapu wohi; and that his back
was also kapu, and they could never climb his back or walk behind his back.
M. ROY:So to be clear that I understand, youÓre saying that in the presence
of a chief with the rank, kapu moi, someone with the investment
kapu wohi rank had the right to remain standing. Is that correct?
26
D. ROY:That is correct.
M. ROY:And that, to be clear, for myself, was invested for the first time on
HawaiÒi Island at Kaluaokalani. Is that correct?
D. ROY:That is correct. That is the most significant thing about the
investment of this kapu. Because contrary to what we have led t
writers, is that it never did exist before. It existed in OÒahu until her time.
M. ROY:So, again, I bring the question, investment of this type
would you agree with me, that it is purely spiritual, an investment done clearly
spiritually?
D. ROY:It is spiritual in the extreme sense in that it carried on to all
members of the family; and it meant that no one was to be carried on your back or
allowed to be on your back.
M. ROY:Would you call this a custom and a tradition of Hawaiian
D. ROY:It is part of it and an on-going tradition and these people of that
descent retained that kapu.
M. ROY:Am I correct in assessing, in saying then that the conveyance of
this kapu was a conveyance of mana?
D. ROY:Absolutely.
M. ROY:Can you please, to the best of your ability show us where you think
this investment may have occurred, if you can?
D. ROY:Where is pakihai? I think this is it.
M. ROY:Pakihai is above.
D. ROY:She lived here in this area, she lived here. And so when the time
came for the investiture, there were people, who were concerned, that lived down the
coast. Keawe, particularly, was said to live by the sea at KahaluÒu and his sister nearby.
Keaumoku then lived where the sister, Kalaeaka ika iaiwi -.
M. ROY:Kalanikau-.
D. ROY:Kalanikauleleiaiwi lived and that is nearby to Keawe,
Kekauiliomoku. And, so, while Keakealani was living here, these
along the coast. And this investiture related to them as they were taken from their homes
to her place, there out to Phoehoe and down, to practice by other people like Heulu.
27
M. ROY:For the record, you donÓt have enough map to show that youÓre
talking about KahaluÒu and the families that youÓre referring to
Phoehoe and other places like KahaluÒu -?
D. ROY:ThatÓs correct.
M. ROY:Which would confirm that the entire coastline is involved with the
families that heÓs mentioning now. Also, for the record, heÓs pointing, and just to clarify
for me that your belief that where Keakealaniwahine lived is where, to the best of your
ability -.
D. ROY:ThatÓs right.
M. ROY:To your knowledge, can you point to that again?
D. ROY:To my belief, she lived at PuÒu, right in this area. And itÓs, what
they call KeakealaniÓs residence, really, is the complex in which her living quarters and
other structures were developed. And, so, I cannot say for, with any degree of certainty
where exactly she lived, but this is the area in which her compound was situated.
M. ROY:Would you say that you base your belief on your understan
what PuÒu is in your mind?
D. ROY:Now that I know where PuÒu is, yes. I believe, my belief
on that. It is an area at one time which was contiguous and a part of the whole thing.
The road did not exist in that area and the trail went below that hill. And, so, it was in
line with this pond that goes at Haleokekupua and where the wave from the surfing, the
surfing wave run northwards, north of PuÒu, PuÒu which is in lin
downhill.
M. ROY:For the record, this is his testimony in, under Kaluaokalani. You
will find the words that he was just expressing delineated there
the writings of IÒI, you are stating that PuÒu was in keeping with all of these landmarks
that you just pointed out and, in fact, is the place that you believe was the important
location of or part of this residence. Correct?
D. ROY:After spending a lifetime looking for PuÒu, I am satisfied that this
was once the area in which it was located. And the AliÒi Drive
brought about by the County of Hawaii which very effectively deleted this lower portion
and disfigured this area so that PuÒu no longer is recognizable. And it is an extreme
satisfaction when I found out from IÒIÓs writing where PuÒu was. Since it was directly
written in that book and described to exist at the point in line with this spring, I being
very familiar with this area was able to recognize that. But previously I could never
identify the location of PuÒu by any of our State maps.
28
M. ROY:Why would you have the belief that IÒIÓs writings hold the
meaning it does for you?
D. ROY:Well, his description of that area was such. If youÓre v
with the location, you could not miss the location of PuÒu. He describes it in his book,
IÓd like to read it from the book. Where was it. I forgot the page.
M. ROY:ThatÓs okay. I think you have written, it has been delineated in my
fatherÓs writings on Kaluaokalani. The exact words, I believe, he has them in quotes
from IÒI. Can you speak about the background of John IÒI and wh
in his writing.
D. ROY:Of all writers, all Native Hawaiian writers, I respect John IÒI for
the reason that from complete illiteracy at the point of his service when he was ten, he
was then given as a kahu to the son of Kamehameha, Liholiho. He was the kahu of
Liholiho from then on until he died in 1825. Now, from that poi
serve his brother, who was Kauhikeauole and performed many duties, services for him in
the reign of Kamehameha IÒII, Kauhikeauole. Now, he was also ve
Great Mahele that was developed; and he later in 1846 became, and in 1822, excuse me,
in 1852, he became the Land Commissioner and remained so to 1860
he was chosen from complete illiteracy, he was chosen to become the Supreme Court
Justice; and that is what he remained for two, he served for two terms before his death.
And so with that innate intelligence and clarity of thinking and so forth, I render him as
one of our most reliable writers that we have in Hawaii; and his rendering of the
traditions of the Hawaiian people was most accurate in all respects, even today.
M. ROY:Thank you. For the record, it is, you have written, ÐIt was there, in
PuÒu, that Kamehameha lived and roamed for a long time with his
location of PuÒu is described thusly: The surf of Kamoa at Keolonhihi, and PuÒu runs
toward the north side of PuÒu, directly beyond the spring there.Ñ You say, I quote, ÐThis,
to me locates PuÒu better than a map.Ñ
My father has similarly spoken with regard to another matter. And may I ask you that
with regard to testimony recently in court regarding AhuÒena Heiau, did you similarly
base your statements on the writings of IÒI with regard to the area of Kamakahonu?
D. ROY:Yes, I regard John IÒIÓs description as most important, especially as
it pertains to the kÒele of Kamehameha the Great, which it existed on the higher level of
the Kona lands; and he describes the people of Kona having been in famine at that time
and that John IÒI participated in the bringing back of the economy to satisfactory levels in
his time. Kamehameha, in one yearÓs time, was able to restore h
stability and took up his residence in Kamakahonu.
M. ROY:Thank you.
29
D. ROY:Now, this area of Kuahewa, in which he called his, in pri
terms, taro land was really the mahiÒai that he was referred to in IÒIÓs book. MahinaÒai
means a garden of cultivation and it extended from Keopu to several ahupuaÒas but, down
the road, on to Keauhou and KahaluÒu.
M. ROY:Would that Kuahewa, that kÒele, be above this location that weÓre
talking about Keolonhihi?
D. ROY:It would be approximately and, itÓll be approximately in the 1,200-
foot elevation, from 900- to the 1,200-foot elevation.
M. ROY:Thank you. So are you presently involved with identifying sacred
Hawaiian properties that were negatively affected by development?
D. ROY:Yes, that is why the functions of Klana Huli Honua, that is to
resurrect our people to the values that possess in their tradition.
M. ROY:Thank you. Did you find that the pier in Kailua-Kona, in what is
known as a non-conforming structure built upon the area known as
sacred?
D. ROY:It is to my mind a disruptive fixture that has been introduced by the
State which must be eliminated in the future.
M. ROY:Did you find for the basis of your assessment, did you ba
portion or that, base your decision upon the writings of IÒI?
D. ROY:Yes. John IÒI describes the area such that the actual Ah
Heiau should have existed up to the point under the center part of the pier.
M. ROY:Thank you. This is entered for clarification and knowledge of
sacred properties, may I say. This is the linkage that I am trying to attain. Thank you.
Were you Chairman of the Kalae O Kamoa Study Advisory Commission
D. ROY:Yes. My contact with Keolonhihi and the surrounding vicinity
took place in the latter Ò70s; and I played an active part in community action that resulted
in the purchase of the area known as Keolonhihi, which I believe is 12 acres by the
State. And then following that, it led to a great deal more study about the surrounding
lands on the upper side. It was readily observed by me during that period that Keawe and
being of such an important figure in our traditional line-up of mÒ, KeaweÓs residence
and the KeakealaniÓs residence established a corridor along to Keauhou and beyond as
the royal area. It is a royal habitation from the time of Umi and before.
M. ROY:Thank you. Have you been consulted to answer and contribute to
the wisdom kept on sites Kamaekieku Heiau at KahaluÒu?
30
D. ROY:Yes.
M. ROY:Kapuanoni, Hapai AliÒi Heiau, also, at KahaluÒu?
D. ROY:Yes. I was privileged to cover that area particularly by close
relatives of the party of John, Henry Kekahuna and Napua, Naluahini Kaopua; and the
manÓs name in this case here was George Pinihaka Nelson, who was from Kohala and his
family was very well versed in the traditions of Kamehameha.
M. ROY:Similarly, did you work to restore Hikiau Heiau and KuÒemanu
Heiau?
D. ROY:My experiences in restorations of heiau extended to Hikiau several
times and that is at Hnaunau, I mean, NpÒopoÒo in Kealakekua Bay; and it also
extended to KuÒemanu Heiau, which was a surfing heiau. And my experiences also led
me KealakwaÒa, which was the heiau next to the present Outdoor Circle Center.
M. ROY:Did these locations also include Hale-O-Piilani in Hana?
D. ROY:Yes. Incidentally, the Hale-O-Piilani Heiau, strangely enough, is
overlooked by all of our writers in history and it does not appear in any of our literature;
and, yet, today we find out that it is the largest heiau in the Pacific.
M. ROY:May I move to change the maps here for a moment. Facing
map that, I might ask Mr. Vitousek, is this yours as well?
VITOUSEK:Yes.
M. ROY:Thank you. May I use this map that shows the coastline of the area
that we were talking about at Keolonhihi and Kamoa Point. And it shows particularly
the land area with ahupuaÒa lines, but not as detailed as others that weÓve seen. Is this a
part of our record? While we look to confirm whether this is part of our official record
here today -. Ms. Giffin, do I have to wait for that to proceed
VITOUSEK:I believe thatÓs Map Figure 6, from the Visual Impact A
which is a portion of Exhibit 1.
M. ROY:Thank you, Mr. Vitousek. Referring to this map, then, be
shows a broader area in this sense -. Dad, can you begin to speak about the land tenure in
this area?
D. ROY:In my experience, it takes me back to 1973 and before, at
when this area was held by one Mhele award under a person named, Loe, L-O-E. The
whole ahupuaÒa of Hlualoa 4th belonged to her and there were no subdivisions in there.
But at the end of 1973, the estate was probated and land-courted; and so the heirs to that
estate were all, all sold their interests over to Dillingham and Carlsmith in this area of
31
Hlualoa, ranging up to Mmalahoa Highway. And, in the process, this was subdivided
by Dillingham and as a partnership with Carlsmith into Kilohana
Subdivisions. So they all have different tax keys now; and they even go, and Dillingham
was ultimately responsible for donating the Keakealani residence which was 16 some odd
acres to the State, which had not been registered yet; but it is underway, as I understand
it. Now, previously, there were other grants given to one named Kawaihoa and another
one to Poowailehua, Hoowailehua, and Kamalu, up to this way, in line this way. And, so,
there were holdings of this pali, actually it ran all the way up here and there were many,
many different heirs involved in this process. But 1973 was the big point where the land
was characterized by subdivisions.
M. ROY:The families, to clarify, that you mentioned are, did you
you say Kawaihoa is one?
D. ROY:Kawaihoa is the first one. But I believe, according to the story,
that this land was purchased in three grants, all of which belonged to the same man with
different names. He had three names, Kawaihoa, Hoopaihoa, Hoowailehua and Kamalu.
These were all people, close, the names close to KamehamehaÓs party; and for that reason
they were held high ranking. But they used that land, and nobody else did until Loe died.
When Loe died, she left a will; and from, and the probate of the estate I looked at, the
will, and she had given it, bequeathed to a certain man; and her children were ignored,
that is, they were left without an inheritance. And, however, they had a remainder
interest in that to the effect that when this man died, the same property would revert back
to these children. That, the American judge could not see; and, therefore, threw the will
out of court and immediately gave the inheritance over to her children. And, so, when
her children received their share, they immediately sold their interest over to another
party. And it became a point of contention from then on, that is, everybody was after
that. And, so, the party that, the two children that had a remaining one-fourth interest
were ultimately taken away from their grandfather and the custody given to the First
Trust Co. in Hilo, who immediately asked for permission to sell the land at auction in
order to raise those children as wards of the State. And, so, thatÓs what they did; and at
the time that they grew up, their estate had drawn, their money had been spent, $7,500.
M. ROY:Can you please explain your understanding why Loe willed
land to another party that way?
D. ROY:I have no facts to believe it but I have good reason to think that the
reason she left the children out of her will was that they were too young to handle the
th
sacred aspects of this land of Hlualoa 4. And so she turned it over to the man she
believed could handle it; and after he died then those children
up and then be able to handle it after he left.
M. ROY:What is the name of that man?
D. ROY:That man, I am not exactly sure, but I believe it to be Kinimaka.
32
M. ROY:Thank you. So, to repeat, then, the names Kamalu and so
names of people who were close to the court or close to Kamehame
D. ROY:They were close, in a sense, they were close to Kamehameha.
However, theyÓre all in one man. One man had the same names in
M. ROY:Thank you. Can you assess in that day when these, when t
person was alive, Kawaihoa, Kamalu, the same person, what was the cultural condition of
Hawaiian people with regard to understanding a new way of monetary system?
D. ROY:That is the first time they experienced poverty. The dollar and the,
the dollar value upset their equilibrium in the sense of actual values that tended to the
land and their traditional past. They would, in cases like this, consider this a very, very
important part for the aliÒi that lived there and would not think of encroaching upon it for
personal uses. And, consequently, that land was allowed to turn to growth, and you see
very little work on it today. And, as a matter of fact, in other areas, you find the same
thing happening. Most places that were considered important to the Hawaiian people at
that time had been allowed to go into growth, and they do not return to that for any
commercial activity. And, to begin with, the aliÒi, this is something that was never
brought to my attention as I was growing up in college. The anthropologist that was
instructing me never told me why the Hawaiian people rejected the idea of trading, or
bartering, or actually making a profit from a business activity until I came across the
book of Sam Kamakau in where he casually mentioned his experiences when it related to
the attitudes of the people towards mercantile or merchandising. There was an epitaph
that he referred to which was ÐSon of a Peddler,Ñ which was much like the words, ÐSon
of a Bitch.Ñ In their minds it was a disgrace to be selling merchandise for profit. And
then I realized that at that point why it was that the Hawaiians were always at the lowest
scale in business. It was not popular for them, not preferable to get into business for
them for that purpose.
M. ROY:More, would you relate that to the aspect of what youÓre saying is
that they would disdain the practice of selling, bartering for game?
D. ROY:There were some barter in the ancient culture; but, however, it was
mostly among relatives where one would give and exchange for gif
elevations would be trading with the lower elevations with marine products that the
mauka elevations would not have.
M. ROY:Have you told me in the past, Mikahala Roy, that these fa
Hoopali, etc. that youÓve mentioned today, were land-rich and wealth-poor?
D. ROY:John Hoopali in my, as far as I knew at that time, was a
recipient who had to have welfare given to him in the way of poi and subsistence articles.
However, John Hoopali was worth well over $2 million at that tim
M. ROY:When you speak of lawyers such as Mr. Dillingham and
33
Mr. Carlsmith, are you inferring that the change left hands or the land left hands and went
into lawyers of this time?
D. ROY:Absolutely. It was absolutely the case where the lawyers could not
emerge victorious they simply bought out the heirs and eventually became the
landholders.
M. ROY:What would you characterize was the general condition of the
well-being of the Hawaiian people at that time when this was happening?
D. ROY:They were in a transition state where most of the land be
popular among the ranchers was being sold by Hawaiians to the ranchers. And,
consequently, today youÓll find that most of the land below Kuakini Highway or in the
vicinity were owned by ranchers and, who bought that land very cheaply, and these were
all used as fattening pens. And you will see that the area of Kawaehua, which is in
Hlualoa 3 along the beach of, the road of Alii Drive, was also us
paddocks that they placed on the side of the road. There you can see evidence of that;
and this was used up to 1973.
M. ROY:Thank you. Madam Chair, I realize that weÓre going on to the
12 oÓclock hour. I have more questioning, but I would turn the proceeding over to you at
this time what you would suggest.
GIFFIN:My thoughts were very similar to yours and we do have another
witness that was scheduled, if IÓm not mistaken, for 1 p.m. and who has been here for
awhile. IÓd like to call on Maile David and find out what is your sentiment regarding
your witness.
DAVID:Thank you. If it would be all right with Mikahala and Mr. Roy,
when we come back from lunch, if we could put, if I could put Clarence Medeiros on and
take him out of order, and then Mr. Roy finishes his presentation. I wonÓt take too long
with Mr. Medeiros. I mean, I donÓt have that many questions. ItÓs a genealogy matter
so -.
GIFFIN:Right, right. And then we had somebody else scheduled, also,
right?
M. ROY:Yes, Ms. Punihaole.
GIFFIN:At, was supposed to go right after Mr. Medeiros, right?
M. ROY:ThatÓs correct and I will verify the time with her.
GIFFIN:So, would you like to then, when Maile DavidÓs witness is pau,
continue with your dad or go on with the other witness?
34
M. ROY:You know, to my knowledge, I think Ms. Punihaole expressed that
the closer to 3 oÓclock for her would be the best and that maybe we could close the day
with her testimony. And if we could, after Mr. Medeiros, go back to my father. Mostly it
would be to afford for your all questioning Òcause I have very little more to go in general
questions.
GIFFIN:The Applicant?
VITOUSEK:Yeah, we have no, no problem with it.
GIFFIN:Okay. The County?
ISHADO:We donÓt have any objections with that procedure.
GIFFIN:Ms. Springer?
SPRINGER:No objections.
GIFFIN:Mr. Togashi?
TOGASHI:None.
GIFFIN:Then why donÓt we go ahead and do that and recess now for lunch,
come back at 1 oÓclock for Mr. Medeiros, and then when he is through, continue with
Mr. Roy and then the last testifier for today.
M. ROY:Thank you.
GIFFIN:YouÓre welcome. We are in recess until 1 oÓclock.
DAVID:Thank you.
RECESSEDThe Chair called a recess at 11:43 a.m.
RECONVENEDThe meeting reconvened at 1:12 p.m.
GIFFIN:IÓd like to call the meeting of Hawaii County Planning
Commission back to order. This is the continued Contested Case proceedings. The
Applicant is Wayne Blasman. The Application number is SMA 02-03. This is an
application for a Special Management Area Use Permit to allow the development of a 13-
unit condominium project and related improvements.
Before we recessed for lunch, we agreed mutually that we would interrupt Mr. RoyÓs
testimony and hear the witness, Clarence Medeiros, Jr. And without any further ado,
Mr. Medeiros, IÓd like you to please raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm to tell
the truth on this matter now before the Hawaii County Planning C
35
MEDEIROS:I do.
GIFFIN:Thank you. Your name and residence address for the recor
please?
MEDEIROS:Clarence A. Medeiros, Jr. Address, too?
GIFFIN:Yes, please.
MEDEIROS:ItÓs 86-3672 Government Main Road, Capt. Cook 96704.
GIFFIN:Thank you. Maile?
DAVID:Aloha, Clarence. How many years have you studied and
researched genealogies?
MEDEIROS:Genealogy is a lifetime thing; but when you talk about research or
investigative work, about 30 years.
DAVID:Thank you. Who instructed or trained you in this field?
MEDEIROS:Many people. Verbal and historical things came mostly from my
dad; but the investigating part, many people, Church of Latter Day Saints, archives,
people that work in the courts.
DAVID:Excuse me, Clarence.
PUBLIC:ItÓs hard to hear -.
DAVID:Yeah, I canÓt really hear. Just keep the mike to your, thanks. Do
your studies also include, like you said, oral histories passed down from families or
kupunas from the areas?
MEDEIROS:Yes, from my dad, our uncles, and, oh, the grand-uncles
DAVID:Okay. As you know, IÓve been granted standing in this Contested
Case as a lineal descendant of Keakealaniwahine. Exhibit 1 in my exhibits, I think I gave
you a copy of; and for this, for the hearings officers I believe itÓs Exhibit 1 to my list of
exhibits. You have a copy of that?
MEDEIROS:I do.
DAVID:Did you provide this information to me that you see on Exhibit 1?
MEDEIROS:I did.
36
DAVID:Is the information listed on Exhibit 1 accurate?
MEDEIROS:Yes, it is.
DAVID:Are you also a lineal descendant of Keakealaniwahine?
MEDEIROS:I am.
DAVID:And do you and I come from the same genealogical line?
MEDEIROS:Yes, we do.
DAVID:At what point on that summary, oh, I see youÓve got another chart.
At what point do our families tie to each other?
MEDEIROS:If I can go to the chart IÓll show you with the pointer.
DAVID:Okay.
MEDEIROS:Our common ancestor is Aikanaka, who had two wives. On
the wives is Kamae, who is also buried at the puÒu down at the Hokulia where all the
trouble is at, and we come from the second wife, Aukai or someti
had two children, which is Keliiowela and Kekoa. This board was made for me and that
was made for you.
DAVID:Yes, I understand.
MEDEIROS:And their siblings is Keliiowela and Kekoa which you already,
over there.
DAVID:I see. So on Exhibit, my Exhibit 1, Aikanaka, which is ab
third one down from the middle of the page is where we tie.
MEDEIROS:ThatÓs right.
DAVID:So the genealogy following Aikanaka and Aukai down to, fro
then to Kekoa is what is my family line?
MEDEIROS:ThatÓs right.
DAVID:Thank you. Are your studies and research of genealogy supported
by proper documentation?
MEDEIROS:Yes, they are.
37
DAVID:Are these supporting documents registered or filed with an
agency?
MEDEIROS:Many agencies, DLNR, First Circuit Court, Third Circuit, the
Ninth Circuit, and many other places, church records, marriage records.
DAVID:Thank you. IÓm going to ask you a question, just short qu
regarding Keakealaniwahine and your knowledge of this area. Mr. Roy testified earlier
of a period when Dillingham owned the part of the lower award. Are you familiar with
that?
MEDEIROS:Yes, I am.
DAVID:Do you have any personal knowledge of that period and its
relationship to Kaluaokalani and Keakealaniwahine?
MEDEIROS:Yes, I have. In 1969, when I was home on leave from th
I went down there and we were corralling all the pipi for Dillingham, mauka of the
Keakealani Complex. And one of the kunioles breaked down and headed makai towards
the complex; and Uncle Johnny told me, ÐBruddah, no go in the complex with the horse.Ñ
He also told a few other cowboys there itÓs kapu. So that kuniÒole you gotta bring back
on a leg, on your foot. So I had to go down to the highway, bring that kuniÒole back up.
DAVID:So, for purposes of definition, kuniÒole is -?
MEDEIROS:Without brand.
DAVID:Thank you. And your Uncle Johnny you speak of, what was h
position with Dillingham Ranch, at that time?
MEDEIROS:At that time, he was the foreman of the cowboy crew and
eventually became the manager.
DAVID:I see. And that is John B. Medeiros?
MEDEIROS:Yes. And my dad also was working there and he was present that
day, along with other family members and workers.
DAVID:And is John B. Medeiros related to my father, Edward Medei
MEDEIROS:Yes, theyÓre siblings, older sibling.
DAVID:Thank you. What is your understanding or knowledge at that time
when John B. Medeiros worked at Dillingham, about the area -? D
cowboys or informed the cowboys why it was not, he did not want
Keakealaniwahine?
38
MEDEIROS:Yes. The word ÐkapuÑ means, Ðno go,Ñ period.
DAVID:Is that a place reserved?
MEDEIROS:Yes, it was spiritual for the chiefs, the kings and everybody of aliÒi
standing. So that place was reserved for our spiritual and worship areas.
DAVID:And did you also instruct the cowboys, was this a known fact
while he was foreman with Dillingham that this area is not to be breached in any way?
MEDEIROS:ThatÓs right. No cattle was to go near the complex.
DAVID:So, basically, no cattle was driven close to the complex or through
the complex?
MEDEIROS:As far as I know, yes.
DAVID:Thank you. Earlier, Mr. Roy testified regarding the chain of title
regarding, to the award to Loe. And were you here at that time?
MEDEIROS:Yes, I was.
DAVID:I see. Are you familiar in your studies with the award to Loe?
MEDEIROS:Yes, a little.
DAVID:What do you know with regard to the probate or the estate of Loe?
MEDEIROS:I know he had a Land Commission award that was granted
and it was 638 acres in Holualoa 4; and she had two children of her own, and one adopted
child called Abigail.
DAVID:Have you done any further research into that or any other
information that you are aware of that might pertain to the title of this ahupuaÒa and
award to Loe?
MEDEIROS:I know that in the last ten years there was a problem with one of
our relatives, Zack Kanuha, IÓm sorry, Zack Kapule, who had some kind of a case going
on. And he asked me to help, but we were battling our own fire down south. So, I donÓt
know what came to, of that case, but there was a title problem there.
DAVID:I see. Is that all you know about that situation?
MEDEIROS:Yes, just up to that point.
39
DAVID:Okay. Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
GIFFIN:Thank you. Commissioners? Hannah, any questions of
Mr. Clarence Medeiros, Jr.?
SPRINGER:Yes. At the time when the cattle work that you described taking
place with Johnny Medeiros for Dillingham Ranch, do you know if Snug Harbor was
already built?
MEDEIROS:IÓm not sure.
SPRINGER:Second question. The agencies that you mentioned with which
you have made filings, do those agencies verify for accuracy or
receiving your documentation?
MEDEIROS:If youÓre talking about DLNR, we became lineal and cult
descendants through their process. If youÓre talking about the Ninth Circuit, First Circuit,
Third Circuit, they were evidence in our case. We presented tho
went to trial; and they were, yes, they prevailed.
SPRINGER:Thank you.
GIFFIN:Mr. Togashi?
TOGASHI:No questions.
GIFFIN:The ApplicantÓs representative, Mr. Vitousek?
VITOUSEK:Hi, Clarence.
MEDEIROS:Hi.
VITOUSEK:Couple of questions. When you say you were accepted as
descendant by DLNR, was that with respect to this property or with respect to a different
property?
MEDEIROS:This was to do with the Hokulia project and some other projects.
VITOUSEK:Yeah, but not this specific area, is that correct?
MEDEIROS:Not formally, no.
VITOUSEK:Yeah, okay. You said you had some familiarity when Dil
Ranch was raising cattle in this area. Is that correct?
MEDEIROS:Yes.
40
VITOUSEK:Was the Keakealaniwahine Complex, or what weÓre calling that,
was it fenced off from the rest of the Dillingham grazing lands in the makai area there?
MEDEIROS:I know it was mauka of, but I didnÓt see any fences there, no.
VITOUSEK:Okay. And then, are you familiar with the property tha
owned by Julian Silva, at that time, this is the Snug Harbor property?
MEDEIROS:Yeah. I seen that property before, yeah.
VITOUSEK:Okay. And that property was a separate parcel at the time that
Dillingham was running, by the time Dillingham acquired the maka
isnÓt that correct?
MEDEIROS:Yes. But we didnÓt see any of the quiet title decree or anything
that there is complete exclusive title, no.
VITOUSEK:Okay, but in terms of, but Julian Silva already had a house on that
property, on this subject property, right? And they moved the house down from Hlualoa
or something?
MEDEIROS:They may have.
VITOUSEK:Yeah okay. But you remember there being a house on tha
property at the time you were helping your uncle, I guess, it was?
MEDEIROS:Actually, I wasnÓt looking for houses. I was looking for cattle but
there may have been.
VITOUSEK:Okay. Fair enough. ThatÓs all the questions I have. Thank you.
GIFFIN:Mikahala.
M. ROY:Thank you. Aloha, Clarence.
MEDEIROS:Aloha.
M. ROY:May I just ask you this question: To your satisfaction, has there
been a sufficient amount of time in your growing up that you have been able to
understand the Hawaiian life way as presented by our elders?
MEDEIROS:Only as to my family, not someone elseÓs family.
41
M. ROY:And may I ask you, again, to your satisfaction in your family, were
subjects pertaining to, for example, religion, kapus, the nature of our faith, were they
discussed to your satisfaction for understanding?
MEDEIROS:ThatÓs a hard question because we come from plenty diff
ethnic backgrounds. But in our household my dad was pretty, respected the Hawaiian
way of life, yeah, and traditions.
M. ROY:Thank you. ThatÓs exactly what I meant, because may I cl
what I meant was with regard to Hawaiian faith. Thank you.
May I ask one last question. Clarence, do you feel that you, given the background in our
being raised, can identify for your children the importance of the original Hawaiian faith
or our way of life? You want me to rephrase that, IÓll try.
MEDEIROS:Yes, please.
M. ROY:Okay. I guess what IÓm feeling, expressing is based on what is
gained from our families in being raised, if you sufficiently have identified knowledge in
your mind of the values of our traditions that you would care to pass on to your children?
MEDEIROS:I would pass them everything I know. But, like I say, we gotta
learn our cultural yet, you know, we donÓt know everything. So IÓm still learning and I
hope somebody can teach me things that I donÓt know.
M. ROY:I understand that immediately. Thank you very much.
GIFFIN:Lester?
ISHADO:Thank you. Mr. Medeiros, we donÓt have any questions. Thank
you very much.
GIFFIN:Hannah?
SPRINGER:Mr. Medeiros, do you know the subject property that this
application pertains to?
MEDEIROS:Yes, I know.
SPRINGER:In your practice of Hawaiian life way, do you use this property in
any way?
MEDEIROS:Only to go to the complex from the road.
SPRINGER:You access the complex through the Snug Harbor property
presently?
42
MEDEIROS:ThatÓs right.
SPRINGER:This is an on-going practice?
MEDEIROS:Nobody ever stopped us.
SPRINGER:Thank you.
GIFFIN:Randy?
VITOUSEK:I guess, Mr. Medeiros, how frequently have you used this Snug
Harbor property to get access to the complex?
MEDEIROS:Recently, maybe once this year. Once a year, then for
never, then when we were young kids hunting, we use Òem.
VITOUSEK:Okay.
MEDEIROS:I cannot give you an exact date.
VITOUSEK:Oh, I know. I donÓt need the exact dates. I just asked, I think you
answered my question. And did you ever talk to Mr. Silva about using the property for
access or any other property?
MEDEIROS:Never did see how he look like.
VITOUSEK:Okay. And when you used the property, were there houses on that
property already when you used it for access to the complex?
MEDEIROS:Recently, yeah.
VITOUSEK:Okay. So at the time that you used it, their property had already
been developed, at least recently? Is that correct?
MEDEIROS:Yeah. IÓd say the last 25 years, yeah.
VITOUSEK:Okay. Are you aware of any other traditional, or cultural practices,
or resources on the subject property? IÓm talking about the Snug Harbor property.
MEDEIROS:That is a sacred place there. ThereÓs a school for the ladies.
VITOUSEK:IÓm sorry?
MEDEIROS:There was a school there where Keakealaniwahine Complex
medicine school, and everything around Òem.
43
VITOUSEK:Okay. But what I was asking about is specifically the Snug Harbor
property. So let me, may I approach the -.
GIFFIN:Yes.
VITOUSEK:Thank you.
Mr. Medeiros, this is an exhibit that weÓve been using and the Snug Harbor property is
outlined in yellow. And, so, what IÓm asking is, and I understa
said, no, the whole area is important. But my question is, are you aware of any specific
cultural or traditional resources or practices that are conducted, or that exist in this
subject property, in the petitioned area?
MEDEIROS:I think youÓre asking the wrong Clarence. IÓm a little bit too young
for that. My Uncle Mauna Roy had answered you that this morning. I heard he
mentioning how that PuÒu over there was part of the whole thing.
VITOUSEK:Okay. But IÓm just trying to ask what youÓre aware of,
what you personally are aware. Are you aware of any practices or resources in the
petitioned area?
MEDEIROS:Not that I, myself, no. Like I say, IÓm too young for that but the
old-timers would know.
VITOUSEK:Okay. Thank you. That was just my question.
GIFFIN:Are you pau?
VITOUSEK:Yes, IÓm pau.
GIFFIN:Mikahala?
M. ROY:Just one more question, Clarence. Are you aware of other
Hawaiians who regard this location as a place for furthering the
themselves and their faith?
VITOUSEK:IÓm sorry, can I just, I feel compelled to make an objection to the
form of the question. ItÓs basically calling for speculation or calling for hearsays,
basically asking whether he knows of other people who think a certain thing; and thatÓs
getting -, so IÓd like to make objection for the record.
GIFFIN:I agree with the objection and the reason. Mikahala, maybe you
can rephrase the question?
44
M. ROY:In your family, Clarence, are you aware of those of your
who regard this place as a place that would further their understanding of themselves as
Hawaiians?
VITOUSEK:Same objection.
GIFFIN:Specifically, Mikahala, when you say their, what are you referring
to?
M. ROY:I think IÓm asking if in ClarenceÓs understanding of his close, his
family -.
GIFFIN:Yes.
M. ROY:If youÓd like me to restate immediate, I will, but those family that
he knows of. In our family system, we are related -.
GIFFIN:Yes.
M. ROY:You know, and I want to know, itÓs just in his knowledge
whatÓs, of how we relate with others, if thereÓs sentiment. In other words, I want to
establish, is this location, based on his knowledge of genealogy work, important for the
reason of furthering our information on our heritage and history.
MEDEIROS:Very important, the most important. But all I can say is for myself
and my family that the word Ðkapu,Ñ if you go in there, you going get licking, period.
M. ROY:Thank you.
GIFFIN:Hannah?
SPRINGER:Through both your testimony and the genealogical chart presented
by Ms. David and the testimony of Mr. Roy, our attention has been drawn to the women,
Kalanikauleleiaiwie, Keakealaniwahine, Keakamahana folks. The n
compound associated with them is Pakiha. Is there any interpretation or knowledge of
that that this panel should know of?
MEDEIROS:I think we get kupunas here that are more experienced in that kind
of field than me.
SPRINGER:Thank you, but, thank you for that. But that site described as a
Pakiha is associated with those women whom I named previously?
MEDEIROS:Yes, they are.
SPRINGER:Thank you.
45
GIFFIN:Commissioners, any other questions? County? Applicant?
County?
ISHADO:No questions. Thank you.
GIFFIN:Randy?
VITOUSEK:No, no further questions.
GIFFIN:Okay. Mikahala?
M. ROY:None.
GIFFIN:Mr. Medeiros, thank you very much for coming and for being so
patient this morning. I saw when you arrived. Thank you.
MEDEIROS:Thank you.
GIFFIN:When we are through with Mr. Roy, there is someone who has
signed up to give public testimony; and, at that time, if there is anyone else who has
signed up to do, give, present public testimony, we will do it t
to be?
M. ROY:Yes.
GIFFIN:Okay, Mikahala, and you said about ten more minutes and then
you were going to have your witness accept questions?
M. ROY:Yes.
GIFFIN:Thank you.
M. ROY:Aloha.
GIFFIN:Aloha.
M. ROY:May I complete the business of a few things. May I ask for the
acceptance of, as an exhibit for Klana Huli Honua, the testimony of David Kahelemauna
Roy, Jr. and to be labeled Exhibit 5.
GIFFIN:The Applicant?
VITOUSEK:I donÓt think we have been using written testimony as exhibits. I
think, we have no objections to admitting the written testimony but I donÓt think that
weÓve been calling them exhibits.
46
GIFFIN:Thank you.
VITOUSEK:But we have absolutely no objection to it being, it was provided to
us in advance and itÓs appropriate. And heÓs here for cross-examination, so no problem.
GIFFIN:Absolutely, and I think that thatÓs fine. If, does that
you?
M. ROY:It would.
GIFFIN:Because thatÓs what weÓre doing.
M. ROY:All right.
GIFFIN:Mr. TorigoeÓs cautioning me that thereÓs several pieces here. And
what, in particular, are you asking to enter in as his testimony? The whole thing,
including the translation from Dr. Kalena Silva?
M. ROY:ThatÓs correct. The whole thing.
GIFFIN:All of it, the whole thing?
M. ROY:Yes.
GIFFIN:And thatÓs going to be five?
M. ROY:Yes, if itÓs permissible.
GIFFIN:In your, sorry, it would be your first witness, yeah, tes
M. ROY:Right.
GIFFIN:So it would be No. 1.
TORIGOE:No, it would just be -. We havenÓt been putting them as exhibits so
itÓs just the testimony of Mr. -.
GIFFIN:Of Mr. Roy?
TORIGOE:Yeah.
GIFFIN:Right.
47
M. ROY:Matter of fact, if I can address the exhibit matter for Klana Huli
Honua, number, as I was kindly instructed in help to me today as a lay person, the maps
would be Exhibit 3A, B and C, I believe.
GIFFIN:Right, right. SheÓs just saying what we suggested, so, hang on, just
one minute.
SPRINGER:Madam Chair?
GIFFIN:Hannah?
SPRINGER:My question is although we have this list, we havenÓt received
anything with numbers on it yet.
M. ROY:ThatÓs correct.
SPRINGER:So IÓm not sure why weÓre starting with, for example, 3
maps that we received this morning. We have nothing numbered 1
here, the Pua Kanakaole-Kanahele Conceptual Plan from the perspective of the Hawaiian
people. We do have a copy of that was submitted with the County
have nothing listed as IntervenorÓs Exhibit 1, nor do we have any maps entered as
IntervenorÓs 2. So IÓm just not sure if we need to conform to this list.
GIFFIN:I think we were doing that earlier today because we wanted to
make sure that everything was accurate in terms of future refere
photograph. And it was just going to be something that we were going to be able to refer
to for record-keeping, but thatÓs your call. Mikahala?
M. ROY:I was appreciative, Madam Chair, of the suggestion that I thought
3 correlated to like maps of Henry Kekahuna. But would you suggest I re-begin again
with No. 1, then, for the maps? No, Hannah?
GIFFIN:Mr. Torigoe said that order is strictly yours; and itÓs not something
that is, you know, good or bad, or oneÓs better than the other. All he needs is, and I think
the County does, too, and we do, too, for the record is some sort of designation.
And, Mr. Torigoe?
TORIGOE:To avoid confusion because your list of exhibits which is, I think,
dated March 7, 2003, has five exhibits listed, and to avoid confusion I thought it would
be good just to go along with what youÓve already numbered them in your list of exhibits.
M. ROY:ThatÓs very acceptable by me. May I ask then if your position of
the Pua Kanakaole-Kanahele Conceputual Plan is in your hands, would that be sufficient
to you or would it be necessary to provide that as an exhibit, in addition?
48
GIFFIN:I think that, and correct me if IÓm wrong, Lester, wasnÓt that
provided to us via the County?
ISHADO:We do have it, I believe. IÓm not sure. I havenÓt seen the exhibits.
IÓm not sure if theyÓre the same. But I do have one suggestion
because there are, you know, several parties involved and weÓre all introducing numerical
exhibits, perhaps the letter before the exhibit like for the County would be C-1 and C-2. I
just want to avoid confusion later.
GIFFIN:Would you please repeat that?
ISHADO:Well, weÓre all introducing numerical exhibit numbers.
Giffin:Yes.
ISHADO:And so for the County maybe a letter in front of it like C1, C2, C3,
so in case thereÓs another Exhibit 1 for the Applicant or Klana, you know, just to
designate which party is introducing the number.
GIFFIN:So youÓre suggesting that the Intervenors would be, for example,
I-1, -2, -3?
ISHADO:Or K and D, you know, for example. ThatÓs just, you know
suggestion on our part.
GIFFIN:Mikahala, did you hear what Mr. Ishado was suggesting?
M. ROY:I did.
GIFFIN:Okay, hang on just a minute. Then I think Mr. IshadoÓs
recommendation is well taken. And if youÓre comfortable with that, Mikahala, why donÓt
we proceed in that manner?
M. ROY:So, thereby, our exhibits would be K, etc.?
GIFFIN:Yes.
M. ROY:So at this time we have K-3A, B and C, A and B, correct?
May I ask all parties -.
GIFFIN:IÓm sorry, I did not hear you.
M. ROY:Just wanting to let you finish there. I just wanted to ask if it is, we
had discussed photographs today?
GIFFIN:Yes.
49
M. ROY:I wanted to ask all parties if I can make those available first thing
in the morning to you and perhaps, in addition, I have another request as well. I have
another map. As IÓve noted here as weÓve noted, No. 2, all maps by Henry Kekahuna.
But No. 3 is maps and photographs of this complex area. IÓd like to at this time prevail
and ask the parties if we might still come to you for permission
the map initially used, done by Henry Kekahuna but worked upon b
doing so, I would have to make a change in my request for witnesses. Because it is
Mr. CastelliÓs work upon a map done by Mr. Kekahuna, I would then ask him to testify to
you directly. And thatÓs what I need to ask the parties; and I would be prepared to show
you this today and perhaps get final approval tomorrow.
GIFFIN:I trust that Maile is in agreement; but you need to get a response
from the Applicant and the County.
VITOUSEK:I think this is, if IÓm not mistaken, I think this was Ms. DavidÓs
proposed Exhibit 2, in which case if itÓs the same document, thatÓs no problem. So I have
no objection to it. And so, I donÓt know, however theyÓre going to bring it in, you know,
whatever works..
GIFFIN:No, thatÓs fine. Lester?
ISHADO:We donÓt have any objections. Is it the same map, Mikahala?
M. ROY:It is, in fact, the same map.
ISHADO:So I think that resolves the problem.
GIFFIN:Fine. And then the subsequent request was then to alter her
witness list.
VITOUSEK:Frankly, I donÓt care if, I mean, if you feel the need to alter the
witness list, would be to qualify the map based on what Mr., what, was it Castelli, did,.
Mr. Castelli testified.
M. DAVID:As a public -.
VITOUSEK:Witness, right?
M. DAVID:Yeah.
VITOUSEK:I mean, itÓs up to you. IÓm not objecting to the document going in.
So, I donÓt know, unless you want to have further testimony from Mr. Castelli -. The
testimony is not necessary to get the map in Òcause weÓre agreei
GIFFIN:Well, mainly, because it was already submitted.
50
VITOUSEK:Right. And we had a chance to review it and all that.
GIFFIN:Right.
VITOUSEK:And we could have questioned Mr. Castelli about it if we wanted
to.
GIFFIN:Yes.
M. ROY:Madam Chair, when I bring questions about certain aspects of the
drawing without him present, would that be acceptable to the parties? Like, in another
words, I could have asked if my father could comment on these things from his personal
experience from Mr. Castelli. He could have answered but he advised me that he could
not. So the direct testimony would be needed to verify what he has drawn here.
VITOUSEK:Okay. Madam Chair, if -. I mean, weÓve agreed to the exhibit, it is
what it is. If the Intervenors want to elicit more testimony about whatÓs on the ground, i
other words, to interpret what a particular structure is on the ground and then if Mr. Roy
is not able to do that, then they should probably bring another witness if thatÓs important.
But in terms of this exhibit being in, thatÓs, you know, weÓve agreed to, weÓre not
objecting to it.
GIFFIN:Mikahala, so what is your desire?
M. ROY:If I can bring light to the material thatÓs written on th
your satisfaction, Mr. Vitousek and Maile and the County, we may do so today. If thereÓs
no objections to that, I would feel able to raise the points that weÓd like to show by way
of this picture, or this sketch and drawing. So if thatÓs the case, then I think I can.
GIFFIN:Yes?
M. ROY:Very good. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Vitousek for provi
the Act 50, Cultural Impact. Thank you, Commissioner Springer for requesting that, the
check of these laws. Would we label that, then? May I label that as an exhibit that weÓve
listed here or is that constituted as -?
GIFFIN:Little background material, huh? Mr. Torigoe?
TORIGOE:Either way. YouÓve listed it as an exhibit or I think if you want to
use it as an exhibit you can, but thatÓs not really necessary since itÓs basically the law.
M. ROY:Thank you. ItÓs not necessary.
GIFFIN:Here I just found the right page. Okay. Maile?
51
DAVID:Okay. WeÓre talking about -. I think my Exhibit 2 is the map that
Mikahala is referring to.
GIFFIN:Correct.
DAVID:Okay. And because itÓs part of my exhibit, in my list, in
I have note that the map of, that the copy of the map was modified by Scott Griffith and
additional modifications by Joe Castelli. And in that respect I just want to clarify that
when she speaks of the Kekahuna map, although this looks like it, there are notations on
here that are not notations of KekahunaÓs maps. They are made by either Joe Castelli or
Scott Griffith. So, for example, reference in Keolonhihi, or hand-written reference in
Keolonhihi through a holding pen for virgin princesses is definitely not culturally
correct reference. So thatÓs, as long as everyone understands that in my exhibit this was
the only copy of the map I could get that which showed Keakealaniwahine Complex as a
whole. But the notations on there, aside from it, as listed on the maps that Mr. Kekahuna
did is not the original. Thank you.
M. ROY:And Chairman, if I may, while weÓre on that subject, bring up the
very point why weÓd like to bring reference to this sketch. It is for the notation that either
Mr. Griffith or Mr. Castelli noted at the top of this picture, and that is a darkened area,
and he labels it ÐCave,Ñ C-A-V-E. That is what we are seeking to make note of. Because
there are, in fact, presences of caves in the neighboring areas, it makes us be extremely
aware of wanting to understand, in fact, the lay of the land and where other caves may be
present. If I see one picture of this, it makes me ever more mindful that these land areas
need study that way. And thatÓs all I know from my personal growing up along these
lands, that we are filled with tubes and tubular systems. Right here in Kailua is a very
huge laniakea system; and thatÓs the reason for citing this at this time.
In our opinion, we look to see that this could very well mean that there are systems
beneath this subject property and why we took great objection to excavation work of any
kind there.
Thank you. If I can proceed briefly and then allow cross-examin
grateful.
Dad, you ready?
Dad, when you spoke of names, Hoopali, Hoolawehonua, Kawaihoa, K
again explain the relationship between these people among these names?
D. ROY:Yes. I know the Hoopali name; and Hoopali happened to be
last owner of this property that was down at Hlualoa 4. And it was in his probate that
this case came up where John Hoopali was the, I believe the grandson of this Kawaihoa.
I could be corrected. But I have a notebook in my possession which is the genealogy of
John Hoopali. Now, Kawaihoa was a grantee of this particular grant at the beach level,
down towards Hlualoa Beach. And he had another one which was towards, by whic
52
was by Kealakowaa Heiau; and that further up he had another grant under the name of
Kamalu, which was another 59 acres reaching up to Mamalahoa Highway. And, so, all
of these three grants were made in his person, and which was the basis of an argument
with the Carlsmith and Dillingham faction in the Land Court. They did not believe that
this is one man. They believed that these were three different people. Well, according to
the notebook, this was the same person. And this testimony I received from his heirs who
were trustees at that time and other people in the vicinity. Their homestead, their home,
the home of John Hoopali and family was near where Kawaihoa, the first grantee, had his
holdings. This property was divided up in a number of different heirs; and it was a
distribution of minute fractions to the extent of interest. And it was an expanded family
system that was possible there which probably accounts for the difference in the holdings
within the subdivision. Because after the Dillinghams and Carlsmiths bought out the
interest of their family, they subdivided this into two areas that are known today, one is
the Komohana Subdivision, and the other is the Kilohana Subdivision, and thereÓs
another one which reaches above to Mamalahoa Highway, the name of which IÓm not
familiar. And thank you.
M. ROY:Is that Iolani?
D. ROY:ThatÓs probably it.
M. ROY:At one time, did this land range from ocean to the Mamala
Highway?
D. ROY:They added in three grants and then one time it did consi
parcel.
M. ROY:Did you not say that the initial names of these parties on these
areas were designated by John IÒI as important men to Kamehameha the Great?
D. ROY:Yes, John IÒI mentioned these names in his writings as cl
associates of Kamehameha. And, so, these apparently are the namesake of those various
names that existed at that time. Because as I understand it, Kawaihoa obtained these
grants in each of his names accounting for the different parcels
M. ROY:Thank you. Did you also tell me that the land south of
Kaumalumalu in the area on or around the Gibson home once belong
Princess Ruth?
D. ROY:Yes. Kaumalumalu, the southern portion of the land, one
being Hlualoa 4, and the other side being Kaumalumalu up to the Canoe Landing was an
area of five acres which was designated for the daughter of Henry N. Greenwell and her
name was Barbara Fitzgibbons. She had married Fitzgibbons. And my dispute was the
Planning Department at that time under Virginia Goldstein resulted in her allowing this
land to be developed by the Van Pernis faction, Alohi Kai Subdivision. But that land was
53
a part of the PuÒuhonua Kanekaelani; and at one time it was owned by the Kahu of
Princess Ruth, Keliiuokalani. Her name was Kalaikuaiwa.
M. ROY:Mahalo. Is it true, IÓm going to speak and clarify as my last point
and question, thank you. Earlier you spoke on the subject of PuÒuhonua. May I ask you,
is it true that the origin of the mana of PuÒuhonua is from antiquity?
D. ROY:Yes, very much so.
M. ROY:When you testified that Kamehameha designated himself a
PuÒuhonua, did this mean that the land places were changed in terms of their degree of
mana at all?
D. ROY:The mana remained with the land but the function of the land itself
of, from that of being a PuÒuhonua had changed accordingly. Kam
himself, his wife and his guard as the sacred points; and, so, they were considered
PuÒuhonuas. The term PuÒuhonua meaning a place where a person c
And Kamehameha considered himself sacred, his wife was sacred, and so was his God;
but none of his followers were considered sacred. These were people who, by way of
support for Kamehameha, conquered the land on which was the PuÒu
which was considered a PuÒuhonua; and by doing so they occupied the land and were not
considered sacred. So Kamehameha did not want to apply the term PuÒuhonua to them.
That is the reason why he abolished that. However, the mana of the land itself remained
with it.
M. ROY:Thank you.
D. ROY:As it says in the Bible, and I think itÓs Psalm 24, ÐThe earth is the
Lord.Ñ That is Hawaiian, thatÓs the psalm thatÓs given in that book, ÐThe earth is,Ñ the
Lord, Ðthe LordÓs.Ñ And, in my mind, what the Hawaiians felt was that the land was
forever and the mana went with the land.
M. ROY:Thank you. So in your testimony, then, the lands of Kalu
would they be considered sacred?
D. ROY:Where Keakealani resided or was said to reside was definitely
considered sacred.
M. ROY:And the portions with all these other sites that weÓve talked about?
D. ROY:Yes.
M. ROY:Thank you. May I suggest and move for the acceptance of
father, David Roy, as an expert at this time in the field of Hawaiian history and culture?
GIFFIN:Commissioner Springer?
54
SPRINGER:I need some clarification on this request. I believe at an earlier
meeting of this panel, we determined that, in part, because of the concerns of Ms. Roy
that we were not going to be accepting expert witnesses in this proceeding.
M. ROY:For any and all?
GIFFIN:I think that that was the gist of our discussion. This last weekend
when I reviewed our minutes, that was the sense that I got. Mr. Togashi, was that your
sense as well?
TOGASHI:After, well, I guess, IÓm partly to blame because I was the one that
perhaps suggested the word ÐexpertÑ be coined, be used. And I recall that, I guess, it was
the mutual understanding of perhaps other parties and perhaps we, because it is an
administrative proceeding, that we dispense of using this word.
M. ROY:If I may, the science of archaeology is wide, is established world-
wide. The subject matter of this hearing is about and consists of the religion and the faith
of the original people of these islands. That is not world-wide and not known. So this is
why I ask that this, I was not aware that that meant coverage. I brought objections to
archaeologists speaking without knowledge to Hawaiian sacredness. But, here, IÓm
asking to affirm for the help, for your understanding that we are speaking to someone and
among those in that generation that can provide what I call ÐexpertÑ testimony, and I
would like you to view it as such.
GIFFIN:Mr. Torigoe?
TORIGOE:I donÓt think that thereÓs anything in this proceeding that prevents
you from arguing to this Commission that your father, by virtue of his experience and
studies, should be considered, and his opinion should be considered as, in effect, expert
opinions. I think you can argue that to the Commission. And I donÓt think anybody is,
you know, I think we would basically come to an agreement that the opinions of all of
these testifiers can be considered, and that the Commissioners or the panel will weigh all
of the testimony and ultimately determine, you know, the weight to be accorded to them.
And that would be the case regardless of whether anybody is given a label ÐexpertÑ or
not. It would still be for the panel members, and ultimately th
determine the weight to be given to their testimony. But, you know, you can be perfectly
free to, in argument, elaborate that your father is eminently qualified, perhaps, pre-
eminently qualified to give opinions and that his opinion should be given a great deal of
weight.
GIFFIN:In addition to that, Mikahala, I donÓt think thereÓs anyone amongst
us that would not agree that your father, and Mr. Roy IÓm saying this in your presence
and directing my comments to you as well, that you are eminently qualified. And the fact
that we were, in fact, mesmerized by a lot that you said this morning and this afternoon,
speaks to that. I just donÓt want to open up another bucket of worms to say in this
55
instance weÓre going to make an exception, because then we can open it up
retrospectively to everybody that did testify for whatever reasons. I donÓt want you to
think and you, too, Mr. Roy, that if I say, no, that it is any disparagement against you or
your qualifications, or the wonderful information that youÓve passed on to us today. That
should not be taken in that regard. My hesitancy and my inclination today would be to
say, Mikahala, unfortunately, no, I donÓt want to make an exception. But, please, donÓt
misunderstand the reason for my feelings of this and to take it in any negative way
regarding what we learned from your father and you today.
M. ROY:I understand, Chairwoman, but -. And IÓm just saying tha
answering to your criteria in Contested Case Hearings, generally you regard expert
testimony when there are commonplace, when there are degrees and
by the parties, that would suggest in asking for a request for this status. Here, we
presented testimony why those other parties with doctoral status did not have adequate
background regarding Hawaiian culture -.
GIFFIN:Germane, too.
M. ROY:Yes.
GIFFIN:Yes. No, I understand that.
M. ROY:Am I clear, then, that none of the testimony so far to this point is
given any label of ÐexpertÑ then? Is that what youÓre saying?
GIFFIN:Yes.
M. ROY:And that we rely on your personal taking in of all the matters so
far? Is that correct?
GIFFIN:As presented.
M. ROY:Very good. Thank you. I open the floor for cross-examin
GIFFIN:First, IÓd like to ask if the Commissioners have any questions of
Mr. Roy. Hannah?
SPRINGER:Thank you. First of all with regard to the interpretation of
Kaluaokalani as presented via Ellis, are there any other interpretations that we should
perhaps be considering?
D. ROY:No. In the writings of John IÒI as to the, to tell of a background of
this area, he fails to point out the colloquial name of this section. However, it is drawn
from description of other printed documents that the name Kaluaokalani comes to the
fore because it was a common name used by all the people and, th
village that was in existence at the time.
56
SPRINGER:My question is not to the use of the name Kaluaokalani but the
interpretation offered by Ellis as the Second Heaven?
D. ROY:That interpretation, as I gather it, was given to him and it was also
by his own interpretation of the language, because he was well-versed in Tahitian as well
as the Hawaiian language. In my opinion, he was on safe grounds when he gave that
interpretation.
SPRINGER:Thank you. With regard to the conferring of the Wahika
kapu wohi in the example that you gave to us, where Kapua conferred, does that relate to
genealogy or the characteristics of the geography, where the conferring of Kapu occurs?
D. ROY:Well, it was really by the way of genealogy, that the kapu wohi
took place. However, it was not existent at that point or any other point on Hawaii before
this took place, before Keakealaniwahine came along. And, if may I add, that is, the
kapu wohi was not used before in Hawaiian annals on the Big Island and it was when
Kaneikauaiwilani became the husband of, half-sister that he brought the kapu wohi with
him from Oahu.
SPRINGER:And he received the kapu wohi through Kakuhihewa?
D. ROY:Beg your pardon?
SPRINGER:And he received the Kupu Wohi through association with
Kakuhihewa?
D. ROY:Through his kinship with Kakuhihewa, the ruling king of OÒahu.
SPRINGER:Thank you. So by that conferring of the kapu wohi on his island,
itÓs through his complex at Kalae O Kamoa and vicinity that HawaiÒi Island becomes
connected to OÒahu?
D. ROY:It was in the sense of the existence of a kapu that it be
but it was not connected as such any further. It was carried on
rather, to Keakealaniwahine and being married to her, and he invested it in her; and thatÓs
how it became prevalent on the Hawaiian series of kapus.
SPRINGER:So itÓs through this genealogical association through this marriage
that the mana of OÒahu becomes accessible to the chiefs of HawaiÒi?
D. ROY:I donÓt believe I can say that, but it was a kapu that wa
by the royalty on HawaiÒi and continued as their own. And this kapu continued on in the
family of Kamehameha, the descendant of Keakealaniwahine.
57
SPRINGER:Okay. Thank you. You mentioned that during the time of
Kamehameha various PuÒuhonua were de-commissioned, if you will -
D. ROY:ThatÓs correct.
SPRINGER:And the PuÒuhonua at Honaunau became the one which was
focused upon for that purpose. Is that accurate?
D. ROY:Yes. It was such an old establishment. And having been
so that it was visibly a PuÒhonua, it was retained as such. Because none of his supporters
asked for any part of that PuÒhonua; and, so, every other PuÒhonua was abolished.
SPRINGER:Now, if a PuÒhonua is de-commissioned such as by a chief like
Kamehameha as weÓre discussing now, what are the implications fo
D. ROY:The implication is that the site itself does not function as a
PuÒuhonua as such. In other words, a person could not run to that place in safety and
receive absolution. However, the mana that remains in, that is a factor that remains with
it and is intangible, and people still feel the presence of it.
SPRINGER:Thank you. I have no more questions at this time. I need to collect
my thoughts.
D. ROY:I would like to add, in connection with that -.
SPRINGER:Sure.
D. ROY:If I may, that when the battle of Mokuohai took place, that
Keawemauhili, the Hilo chief, was captured and the Ilamoku at th
being the officer in charge, executive officer in charge of holding prisoners and things
like that, was his own relative and a very powerful man at that time named Kanuha. And
besides Kanuha was his own nephew who was named Paihala and between the two of
them they allowed the chief to escape from captivity in Napoopoo
held at Hikiau. They allowed him to escape because of his high rank, exalted rank, and
they allowed him to go. And so he was able to make his way by c
Kaumalumalu, the canoe landing we were talking about. And there he received the
absolution of his priest there and cooperation; and they subsequently guided him out to
the Judd, what is now known as the Judd Trail, and he was allowed to escape.
GIFFIN:Thank you. Hannah?
SPRINGER:IÓm asking a question that IÓve asked of Dr. Rechtman,
also of Mr. Medeiros earlier. With establishing a clear connection back in time to
Kalanikauleleiaiwi, Keakealaniwahine, Keakamahana, the women and association with a
site immediately mauka of the Snug Harbor site, the Pakiha, is there an interpretation of
the name or the use of the Pakiha that this panel should know about?
58
D. ROY:ItÓs a name easily mis-read and mis-pronounced when taken it
from the literature itself. Even IÓve mis-pronounced it early in the game, and not
knowing any better. Well, of a sudden it dawned on me that the
paÒa meaning friends, kiha meaning the name of a very famous per
another name which IÓm not familiar with. However, it could be, rather than Pakiha, it
could be PaÒakiha; and itÓll be, literally, quite true, a name of a certain place named after
a person.
SPRINGER:Question.
GIFFIN:Yes.
SPRINGER:In the same way that the conferring of the kapu wohi at this
location linked this place with OÒahu, through Kakuhiewa, which
this be? IÓm wondering if this then makes this -.
D. ROY:Kiha would refer to LiloiÓs father.
SPRINGER:So to Waipio?
D. ROY:Right. Now, this does not mean that it has any connectio
whatever with OÒahu having been separated by this union, but we do appreciate the fact
that all within the family of Kamehameha bore the kapu wohi..
SPRINGER:So again if I may just clarify an interpretation of the Pakiha may be
a reference to Kihanuilulumoku?
D. ROY:Yes.
SPRINGER:Thank you. IÓm pau.
GIFFIN:Mr. Togashi?
TOGASHI:Thank you, Madam Chair. A moment ago, we spoke about using
the term Ðan expert.Ñ But, anyway, I was most impressed about y
was very unique and IÓd have to say itÓs probably going to be the most unique of all the
witnesses that will come before us. And we think perhaps rather than use the coin, the
usage of the word ÐexpertÑ in this testimony, I would say that perhaps a more appropriate
term for you would be a living treasure.
I would like to ask some other questions. Mr. Clarence Medeiros mentioned that his
family does practice customs and rights on the Keakealaniwahine Complex. I was
wondering if you are aware of other lineal descendants of Keakealani that also practice
on the Keakealani Complex site? Or perhaps even you, yourself, do you or your family
practice?
59
D. ROY:I didnÓt catch your word, IÓm sorry. And what I meant to
that somehow the mike disturbs your tone and I canÓt get that right.
TOGASHI:ThatÓs quite all right. ThatÓs quite all right because IÓve been
accused of not speaking very clearly by my own folks. So, but my question, again, was
in Mr. MedeirosÓ testimony before us today, he mentioned that his immediate family does
go on to the Keakealaniwahine Complex to practice their Hawaiian rights or customs.
And I was wondering if you are aware of other lineal descendants of Keakealani, or
perhaps even you and your family going on to that property to practice such rights.
D. ROY:I do know of certain people who, today, respect that idea of
sacredness in that vicinity and go to the land, in itself, with the idea of meditation and
things like that thatÓs connected with the past.
TOGASHI:And may I ask, are there any other types of customs that are
practiced in addition to meditation? Are offerings being made at the site or even prayer?
Is that, or are there other types of customs that are being practiced on at that site?
D. ROY:I must explain a very strange thing that does, does occur among
my Hawaiian people is that where a place is sacred and no longer used, they believe in
the mana of the place and they, therefore, keep away from it and
growth and things like that; and they donÓt touch it. And they may refer to it in talking
and speech and all that, but never approach it physically.
TOGASHI:I see. And you brought up the word Ðmana.Ñ I did want
perhaps maybe clarify for someone who is of non-native descent, to clarify what happens
to the mana when perhaps development occurs on either that prope
piece of property? When the mana is disturbed, what, in your op
which causes disfavor among Hawaiians?
D. ROY:ItÓs an incongruous, an incongruous kind of feeling that I try to
portray. But the fact is when a development occurs over a piece of sacred property, that
developer renders that mana very fragile and almost non-existent. And, so, if they talk of
their importance of the place after itÓs built on, they speak of it in terms of the far-distant
past and not applicable today. Like Honolulu, MililaniÓs, House of Mililani, the
courthouse, that is the house where that John IÒI used to live at; and if, in his
circumstance he was considered sacred to many people because of the mana that heÓs
supposed to have had. And I remember the Pastor in referring to him, as he was passing
away, where this acquaintance of John IÒI felt the impact of his passing and immediately
a chant welled up from his, as he put it, from his naÒau and cam
chant in lamentation. And that was the kind of thing that I have to express to the matter
of mana. When they take a sacred place and develop it like they plan to do with this
condominium, they destroy the mana in there; and thatÓs another thing that we should try
to avoid.
60
TOGASHI:So it no longer transcends the land, then? Once the feeling is, no
longer transcends the land, itÓs -?
D. ROY:ThatÓs correct.
TOGASHI:There was testimony, I guess, during Mr. TerryÓs testimony about
an advisory council that was formed in response to the StateÓs acquisition of the
Keolonhihi Complex and of which youÓre a, the chairman of, I guess, ch
wondering whether different interpretations of this Hlualoa complex other than the
interpretations and opinions that youÓve offered to the panel today, are there other
members of the advisory panel?
D. ROY:Other members of the advisory council generally agree with my
way of thinking as it went along. However, I believe the witness to come yet, thereÓs Pua
Kanahele, might add a great deal to the cultural aspects in the back of that; and I wish she
was present at that time. However, her services were acquired far after we were through
with our work. And, actually, she was in a position, I think, to more thoroughly get into
the cultural aspects of that area than we were. And to this day I feel that it was a mistake
that someone who was not quite as familiar with that area was allowed to write on that,
because many mistakes were made and incorrections were produced in that writing that I
felt could have been avoided.
TOGASHI:Is this advisory council, do they meet periodically over the, I
guess, maybe the StateÓs intent over this complex? Are there other periodic on-going
meetings?
D. ROY:I canÓt understand that.
TOGASHI:Are there on-going meetings of the advisory council?
D. ROY:No. This advisory committee -.
TOGASHI:One-time only?
D. ROY:Was disbanded at the time; and the only time we came into
existence was after the State was interested in setting up a buffer and a public right-of-
way with the new owners of the Alohi Kai Subdivision.
TOGASHI:In your written testimony, you speak about this pond in front of the
PuÒu, yeah. Can you point that out or have your daughter point it out on the map for us,
please?
D. ROY:What is that, pond?
TOGASHI:ThereÓs a pond in front of the PuÒu.
61
D. ROY:Oh, oh. I can point that out for you. Excuse me, I have
time with -. The pond that IÓm talking about is located under the halaeomapuana tree,
lauhala tree, which is located at this corner, where it used to be the, called the
Haleokekupua where the aliÒiÓs bones were prepared for burial. And, as a consequence,
the grandstand that is located here at this point, is not facing towards the surf as I
imagined it would. The grandstand faces the pond.
TOGASHI:Are you saying that because the pond is located in that pretty much
close to, is that Kamoa Point?
D. ROY:Kamoa Point is this. The whole point is Kamoa.
TOGASHI:Are you saying that the PuÒu, which was, I guess, destroyed during
the construction of Alii Drive, does the PuÒu extend all the way to that pond?
D. ROY:No. This PuÒu extends in this vicinity, right about here.
TOGASHI:I see. I see.
D. ROY:But this is definitely a part of the PuÒu. Because when I was a
child, there was a trail here that went along this route, around here; and this road was cut
into that. We had to, it was a high bluff that was remaining. We had to walk upstairs on
the top to reach the cemetery which now exists. According to Desmond Cagampang who
married a Malu -, there was a cemetery that included his kinfolk and many others that
were under this Snug Harbor location. Because there were no rules at that time as to
burials and disposition. And Snug Harbor simply bulldozed that whole area over and
planted their buildings over it. They did not dig down necessarily. And that was, I think
the Snug Harbor existed in 1950 or a little earlier, but it was unobtrusive and there was of
no complaint to the public at that time. However, the planned condominium now is
another version in that once it is established it would forever block out KeakealaniÓs
residence and the historical aspects of the area and destroy many, many remains that
might be there pertaining to the medicinal practices and education of the old Hawaiians at
that time in medicinal fields.
TOGASHI:Your daughter pointed out a, or referred to a diagram or exhibit in
Ms. DavidÓs packet which showed a cave up the, way mauka of the Keakealaniwahine
Complex, yeah. Are you aware of any, maybe, cave structures or lava tubes in the
Keolonhihi area?
D. ROY:Any what?
TOGASHI:Caves or lava tube structures in the -.
D. ROY:These were not open to all of us. There were never, never revealed
to any of us; and, so, I didnÓt know. However, when I was studying the map of
Kekealaniwahine that Joe Castelli had offered, he had modified a
62
of his own which I felt were inappropriate because they did not have any Hawaiian
origin. He did, however, take some aerial photographs and tried to match them up with
what was on the map. And then on top of that, he must have found a cave entrance
because he marked it as a cave that is on the map right now. It was not on the original
map.
TOGASHI:So, to your knowledge, you have no knowledge of any stru
in the Keolonhihi area?
D. ROY:No.
TOGASHI:Okay. Thank you very much.
GIFFIN:Mr. Roy, I have a few questions for you. In the time sequence,
which came first, the construction of the Alii Drive as we know it or the old Snug
Harbor?
D. ROY:Alii Drive.
GIFFIN:Alii Drive came first?
D. ROY:Yes.
GIFFIN:Okay. So then it has been your testimony that in the process of
that construction, the PuÒu was destroyed to make way for the Alii Drive?
D. ROY:Yes.
GIFFIN:You also said in your testimony that the boulders or the rocks that
were part of that PuÒu were put somewhere. Where?
D. ROY:They were placed in the complex of Keolonhihi.
GIFFIN:Oh, so they -.
D. ROY:ThereÓs a large portion of that area, among the heiaus, w
been destroyed, really, because of placement of these boulders there.
GIFFIN:Then how long after the Alii Drive was constructed, to yo
recollection, was Snug Harbor built?
D. ROY:Oh, it was built somewhere around 1950, a little bit, may
earlier, but it was close to 1950. My motherÓs hotel in Kailua was built in 1949, and IÓm
sure that Julian Silva and his family were there located at that
GIFFIN:Oh, oh, oh. Okay.
63
D. ROY:And I wish Julian were around because I could ask him som
questions about that.
GIFFIN:In your testimony, you said that the Alii Drive was const
1930. Is that about right?
D. ROY:In the Ò30s, yes.
GIFFIN:Okay. So, then, Alii Drive in the Ò30s, Snug Harbor in late Ò40s,
early Ó50s?
D. ROY:Right.
GIFFIN:Okay. Then, what kind of public uproar, or was there any, during
both the construction of the Alii Drive and the Snug Harbor, or
D. ROY:There was no outcry; and this all took place as a series of events
that occurred in development of the properties around there. As you noticed, our
informant, Dr. William Ellis, referred to a very thickly-populated and pleasant area in his
travels along the highway. Well, that would have been a longer trail. And there were
many, many people living at that time who gradually moved out and no one replaced
them. And the thing that happened is that the new development took place after the Ò50s,
really, and that rendered the place unrecognizable, really.
GIFFIN:In earlier testimony from other witnesses, there was refe
trails on the so-called Pokobo property.
D. ROY:Yes.
GIFFIN:Do you know where that property is on that map and do you
validate that, in fact, there are trails today on that Pokobo property?
D. ROY:If I recall, I do not know whether, what I was familiar with, it had
anything to do with it, but we considered it all as partly of ranch land in the vicinity and
mostly grazing land. But there was, according to this map, there were many institutions
of ancient periods that had to do with the practice of education with the aliÒi. And, so,
when we came, there had seemed to be a lull here at the time when the people had
virtually conveyed their property as leases to the surrounding ranches. And, so, you
found a great deal of what you call ÐkoahaleÑ today as a fattening agent in their
ranchland; and thatÓs remaining.
GIFFIN:Right.
D. ROY:This place here, as we know by a photograph that we have in our
office, was initially, this was a trail that went around that followed this area. But this is
64
definitely a hill at that point, but I never saw that. I never saw that original hill because it
was, the road was already constructed in the Ò30s, and I was only born in 1925.
GIFFIN:I didnÓt want to ask you.
D. ROY:IÓll tell you, I donÓt mind it. But this is only about a three hour
walk from Kailua; and I believe that Kaluaokalani started out at Alii Kai Subdivision or
that vicinity, actually grew out into that area. But about three hours in a natural, in a very
leisurely pace -.
GIFFIN:Sure, sure.
D. ROY:Would take you right to about where the banyan tree was located
or somewhere in that vicinity.
GIFFIN:Where is the Pokobo property?
D. ROY:The Pokobo property would be back here, above this area.
GIFFIN:Okay.
D. ROY:And they did talk about trails that existed over there.
GIFFIN:Yeah, in fact, trail heads.
D. ROY:I was not present at those things. I must say that those trails were
not used by me, but they were old, or to other people.
GIFFIN:ThatÓs what was said in testimony. I think it was by Ms. Yent that,
in fact, on that property thatÓs where it has been acknowledged that there are ancient trails
and, in fact, trail heads that were used by the Hawaiians to traverse both, you know,
going mauka-makai, I guess.
D. ROY:Mostly, going mauka and makai. Very few lateral trails I know of,
but the purpose of going mauka would be to get to the taro fields and cultivated areas,
and to take food for the exchange to the families living above,
thatÓs about all I can say about that. I wasnÓt born at a period when I could recognize
that.
GIFFIN:Oh, okay. Thank you. Commissioners, if there are no mor
questions -. Hannah?
SPRINGER:Mr. Togashi asked a question relating to what happens to mana if
development occurs. And if I understood the response correctly, it was that mana
becomes fragile, it may become distant. IÓm wondering if that c
rehabilitated, in your opinion.
65
D. ROY:IÓve tried to imagine that happening and I would like tha
happen. However, whatever was connected to that particular site in its function would
have to be ongoing in spite of development nearby to continue. But if the development
took place over the place itself and totally obliterated it with its presence, I think the
mana would disappear.
SPRINGER:One more question?
GIFFIN:Yes.
SPRINGER:I keep referring to the, which has been described as the Pakiha
because itÓs the feature which is closest to the proposed development. You indicated that
it may be associated with Kihanuilulumoku. Can you describe or identify that individual
for us in, relative to Hawaiian history?
D. ROY:Yes. Kihanuilulumoku was the father of Liloa, who was th
of Umi; and Kihanuilulumoku, I think, was the son of Kahaukapu,
grandfather of Umi. And it goes all the way back to the chain of dynasty ranging from
Kahaukapu to Kuiewa, and to Kalanuiohua, and to Kanipahu, and Kalapana, and
Kaimuamoilaa, and all the way back to Kaneuhu, and to Kukuhoa, a
we go into the Moika family. But up until then Paau took over; and when he arrived,
history began for us because they set a new dynasty under Pili, which continued on to
KamehamehaÓs time.
SPRINGER:Are there any significant historic events associated with
Kihanuilulumoku, Liloa or Umi that this panel should know about?
D. ROY:Yes. There is what is known as the Kihapu, which is the,
according to Edward Fornander a shell or a nautilus which is foreign in the South Pacific;
and I donÓt ever recall seeing a sample of one found here. However, this one happened to
have, to be embedded with human teeth and was considered sacred
of rendering the blower of that PuÒu -. The trumpet, at that time, was so loud and so
raucous that it sounded like the sound of many men screaming in pain or death. In other
words, signifying battle occurring; and it could be heard for long distances. And that was
a famous thing which was taken into the Bishop Museum, and it do
SPRINGER:How about Liloa?
D. ROY:Now Liloa, of course, was his son; and he was a man well-
in history for his affability and his control of the islands. B
was the only known chief who was known to have conquered every district by force of
arms. Liloa was the ruler of the island as well. However, he was the last king to rule in
WaipiÒo because Umi moved his government up to Ahuaumi in Huallai, at which time
he commuted between Kailua and Huallai. And he was the first king to set up so many
different heiaus along the island that his hand-carved stones still exist on different parts
66
of the island, the last being at Kailua. We have a few remaining there which are being,
which are seen under the banyan tree now and serve as two good benches for the game of
konani at the site of it.
SPRINGER. Thank you, Mr. Roy.
GIFFIN:Randy?
VITOUSEK:I just have a couple of questions. Mr. Roy, thank you
testimony. The Snug Harbor Motel, I think you said it was built
somewhere in there.
D. ROY:There about. I can only say that it was existing at the same time
that our hotel was existing.
VITOUSEK:Okay. And what was that, who built the Snug Harbor Mot
D. ROY:I believe Julian Silva himself and his associates had that done,
bulldozing and building.
VITOUSEK:Okay. And thereÓs several families that had owned that
for sometime before the Snug Harbor Motel was built. IsnÓt that correct?
D. ROY:It was owned, yes, by some other people but leased probably to
some ranching activity.
VITOUSEK:Okay. And, in fact, when Alii Drive was built, do you recall
whether that split the Silva property? And didnÓt they have pro
and mauka side of Alii Drive after it was realigned? You rememb
D. ROY:Alii Drive was there before I was born so I can only say
always seen it there.
VITOUSEK:Sure. But do you know whether Julia Silva owns property on the
makai side of Alii Drive there or -?
D. ROY:I have no idea and I donÓt think he did because I did hav
to study the real property in that area and I do know that there was grant in the name of
Kawaihoa, and there was a grant in the name of Hoolowaihonua, there was a grant in the
name of Kawalo.
VITOUSEK:And are you familiar where the property is that went in
Mueller family in that area?
D. ROY:The what family?
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VITOUSEK:Mueller?
D. ROY:Yes.
VITOUSEK:And thatÓs right next to this Snug Harbor property. IsnÓt that right?
D. ROY:Right.
VITOUSEK:And was the cemetery on the Mueller property, the one with the
stairs that went up to -?
D. ROY:It was on the Mueller property; and the houses that were along Alii
Drive were constructed in, I believe, a little before the Ò70s came along.
VITOUSEK:Right. And that was Dean, huh, wasnÓt it?
D. ROY:I beg your pardon.
VITOUSEK:WasnÓt it Dean that built the first house there on the makai side?
D. ROY:I have no idea who the person was myself.
VITOUSEK:Yeah, okay. But those houses that were built on the ma
Alii Drive were built in the 1970s, is that right?
D. ROY:I should think so but, because I believe that the owner o
properties was Richard Mueller.
VITOUSEK:Oh, okay. And then how about the property thatÓs just
Snug Harbor property? ThatÓs, I guess, they call that Casa del Sol now or something,
thereÓs a big house?
M. ROY:North.
VITOUSEK:North, excuse me.
D. ROY:ThereÓs nothing south of that.
VITOUSEK:Okay, north.
D. ROY:Right.
VITOUSEK:But there is a, thereÓs, Kimi Cook has a house just south of this
property, isnÓt that correct?
D. ROY:It is more westerly than south.
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VITOUSEK:Okay. And, so, do you remember when that Casa Del Sol
thatÓs on the north side of Snug Harbor was built?
D. ROY:Yes. That was built by Courtney, is it?
VITOUSEK:I donÓt know who owned it.
D. ROY:She was the broker of that area, I think.
VITOUSEK:Okay. But those houses were built after, I guess, all of them were
built after Alii Drive was realigned, isnÓt that right?
D. ROY:Yes.
VITOUSEK:And, Mr. Roy, do you remember when Alii Drive was, afte
realigned, you said there was kind of a tall rockwall on the mauka side of Alii Drive?
D. ROY:Yes.
VITOUSEK:Do you remember any, were there any caves or lava tubes that you
could see in that wall?
D. ROY:I couldnÓt see any cave or tube running through the wall at that
point -.
VITOUSEK:Okay.
D. ROY:But I am told that there are caves down below which could be
heard if you dropped a rock on the road.
VITOUSEK:Okay. But in terms of on the makai side of that Snug H
property along Alii Drive, you recall there being a very tall rock face there but donÓt
recall seeing any caves in there. Is that correct?
D. ROY:None. None that I recall.
VITOUSEK:Okay. And did you ever go into that Snug Harbor Motel
was actually operating as a motel?
D. ROY:Like many of the Hawaiian people, if I didnÓt have any bu
there, I would not go.
VITOUSEK:Okay. I was just wondering whether, you know, I donÓt
remember seeing a sign on Alii Drive back in the Ò60s but I donÓt remember how they
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operated the hotel. Do you remember if there was a sign there or not outside the
property?
D. ROY:As far as I was concerned, I knew it was there; but if I passed by I
would never have noticed it.
VITOUSEK:Okay. Did you ever talk to Julian Silva about the history of this
property?
D. ROY:Casually. Julian was a student of mine and I often talked to him
about many things. And he used to bring me plantings of awa. But the questions that I
would ask him were merely how he was doing or things like that.
VITOUSEK:Okay. Fair enough. I think you testified about the, I think in
earlier testimony, your daughter asked you to point out the location of
KeakealaniwahineÓs home. IsnÓt that correct?
D. ROY:She asked me to point out the name of, where her residence was;
and, yes, I did point out the general area.
VITOUSEK:Okay. And the materials that were produced as part in part of your
exhibits suggested that that was, that the residence was located in the Pakiha. Is that
correct?
D. ROY:Yes. If you were to read that area, it sounds as Pakiha. However,
generally, words are compound in Hawaiian; and as I understand the Hawaiian language,
this would be compounded by two words, PaÒa being the curtain behind the wall itself,
Kiha would be the name it was named after.
VITOUSEK:Okay. Well, I really apologize if I mis-pronounced the word
because I really do not have that background.
D. ROY:I donÓt blame you. Everybody does that.
VITOUSEK:I will apologize. And so to the best of your knowledge, the
KeakealaniwahineÓs house platform, the one thatÓs the house platform is located within
that Pakiha, is that correct?
D. ROY:Right.
VITOUSEK:Okay. And I think you also talked about the investiture of the
Kapuohi, is that right?
D. ROY:Yes.
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VITOUSEK:And in some of the materials that were provided, there is some
reference to that investiture having taken place in a heiau in Keolonhihi. Is that correct?
D. ROY:It could have taken -. IÓm sorry I could not say it was invested in
Keolonhihi itself. I have no reference point to go to on that point. However, it was
pointed out in this anecdote that I found where the chant was written, and it was all in
Hawaiian, that it was in KeakealaniÓs residence that this took place.
VITOUSEK:Okay, Òcause I was referring to the section of an exhibit from the
County that was entitled, portion of ÐExalted Sits The Chief, Ð which I guess is a history
from, principally, offered by Russ Cordy. And it said that ÐAccording to the late 1800s
Board of Genealogy of Hawaiian Chiefs, this appears to be the likely temple where
Keakealaniwahine gave her grandson,Ñ excuse me, if I mis-pronounced this, but
ÐKalanikeÒeaumoku, the important kapu wohi -in a special ceremony at a heiau called
Keolonhihi.Ñ It says, ÐIt also seems to be the heiau with a pool described as
Knekaheilani to Ellis in 1823.Ñ Is that, are you familiar with that information?
D. ROY:In Keolonhihi, the heiau that youÓre referring to in the Reverend
EllisÓ book, if IÓm not mistaken, itÓs called, ÐKauakaiaolaÑ or as he puts it, Kauakaiaola.
VITOUSEK:Okay, well let me just -. Can I see the exhibit of the, is it Exhibit
3-A, was -?
D. ROY:I think it was incorrect. I must point out right here that months
after I found the anecdote in the genealogy of Piohohiwa, I came across a piece of
literature that was put out by the Board of Genealogy of Kalakaua. KalakauaÓs Board of
Genealogy reported that the kapu wohi was invested at Keolonhihi at that time.
However, what I would like to refer to is John IÒIÓs writing because I think that there are
some things that are incongruous with the writings of the Board of Genealogy and does
not seem to match up with what John IÒI says. ÒCause in the first place the kapu wohi did
not exist on the Big Island before the time of Keakealani.
VITOUSEK:I guess the reference in Cordy was saying that it appeared that the
heiau at which the kapu wohi was invested was this Kanekaheilani Heiau which, again,
thatÓs just the reference through Cordy. But that heiau is located in the, at least according
to your Exhibit 3-A is located in Keolonhihi Complex. IsnÓt that correct?
D. ROY:I think Mr. Cordy is mistaken in that case because -.
VITOUSEK:Then Mr. Ellis is mistaken because Cordy is just quotin
D. ROY:Oh, well, then Mr. Ellis could be very definitely mistaken because
the reference I point to is that of an anecdote taken from KeohiwaÓs genealogy itself in
Hawaiian and it does not say anything about a heiau being the point where investiture is
made.
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VITOUSEK:Okay. Fine. And, so, you think that Ellis may be mist
correct?
D. ROY:Right.
VITOUSEK:Okay. And, oh, on that, this reference to Kaluaokalani
any other reference to Kaluaokalani other than in Ellis?
D. ROY:Not in all my readings at all. I was very much surprised to find it
when I came across Reverend EllisÓ report.
VITOUSEK:Well, could he be mistaken on that as well?
D. ROY:Beg your pardon?
VITOUSEK:Could he be mistaken on that as well?
D. ROY:No, he was not.
VITOUSEK:Okay.
D. ROY:And then there was a question of whether he was in a certain heiau
or not. I donÓt think that the very investiture of a kapu wohi would have been permitted
to a malahini member.
VITOUSEK:Okay. So, I just want to be clear on this point. The only reference
that youÓre aware of to the area in this vicinity being called Kaluaokalani is this reference
in the journal of Reverend Ellis. Is that correct?
D. ROY:When I first came across it, yes, it was a surprise to me because no
other writer had ever mentioned Kaluaokalani except Reverend Ellis.
VITOUSEK:Okay. And you refer to, IÓm sorry.
D. ROY:Naluahine mentioned all of these things afterwards; and b
associated with his relatives and with the party that he was with, it was easy that he, they
would talk about these things. So I learned a lot from that. However, in the time of
Reverend Ellis, I respect the fact that the name Kaluaokalani was so common that as he
passed by on his stroll, the residents, the occupants of that area told him the name of the
place; and they called this Kaluaokalani. Now, that was a surprise to me because it was
not mentioned by John IÒI. However, that did not diminish any part of its value because I
know it was granted at that time.
VITOUSEK:And I think that when you were talking about the term
Kalusokalani, you referred to Ellis as your informant for that information. Is that correct?
72
D. ROY:Yes.
VITOUSEK:So you refer to the Ellis book as your informant. Is that correct?
D. ROY:No.
VITOUSEK:Okay.
D. ROY:I refer to Ellis as my prime source because it was readily at hand.
However, Asa ThurstonÓs account always, around the island trip at that time was also one
that I knew long before. But I could not lay my hands on that book anymore because it
was lost. And, so, therefore, I refer to Reverend Ellis because he was in the same party.
VITOUSEK:Okay. And just a final question about the reference to PuÒu. That
was a reference that you found in the writings of IÒI, is that correct?
D. ROY:I beg your pardon?
VITOUSEK:The reference to PuÒu was the reference that you found in John
IÒIÓs writing?
D. ROY:ThatÓs correct.
VITOUSEK:Okay. And the reference was, ÐThe surf of Kamoa at Keohihi
and PuÒu runs toward the north side of PuÒu, directly beyond the spring there.Ñ Is that
correct?
D. ROY:Right.
VITOUSEK:And is there water on the north side of PuÒu?
D. ROY:Yes. On the north side of PuÒu, the bay curves in towards Alii
Drive. As the bay curves in to Alii Drive where it stands now, PuÒu extends in the area
south of that bay.
GIFFIN:Show that again, please?
D. ROY:The area of PuÒu is in this location; and north of PuÒu where the
waves go is in this location, right about here. And, so, this would be known as PuÒu, this
general area. Now you do not say that this hill itself is PuÒu alone. This area is PuÒu and
all the surrounding areas around it would be known as PuÒu then, as John IÒI would write
it. The people that live there, Kamehameha lived here at PuÒu. However, he was trained
in PuÒu and in all the athletic arts of the alii at that time. He was trained in the area of
PuÒu but it would not be up here at this point, necessarily. This location here, if it was
comparable to Kainaliu, for example, the name Kainaliu applies to an area much larger
73
than the central point of Kainaliu. So this is the place name that applies not only to this
point, it applies to this and to that.
VITOUSEK:Okay. So can the record reflect that when the witness said Ðnot
necessarily at this pointÑ, he was pointing at the subject property; and said Ðit could be at
this point,Ñ he was pointing more in the southerly direction; and then when he said Ðit
could be in this general area,Ñ he was indicating the whole area shown on that map. The
record has to be, you know, weÓd have to try to clarify the record. He said this, this and
this.
M. ROY:May I also clarify that point, that his stroke south did
necessarily be one stroke meaning that thatÓs how far. If youÓre going to nit-pick to that
degree, this is the question I asked about the quality of expert. Because when you have
this knowledge base coming, itÓs like you donÓt understand, you donÓt understand what
heÓs trying to express because we no longer think in these terms like heÓs trying to
explain.
GIFFIN:Mikahala, excuse me -.
VITOUSEK:I was trying to describe what he was doing with the pointer -.
M. ROY:And IÓm trying to clarify that what youÓre saying is not correct.
GIFFIN:Okay, excuse me, both of you, Mikahala and Mr. Vitousek,
kind of discussion really must stop. I think that the comments are well taken, theyÓre
both on the record, and letÓs leave it at that.
M. ROY:Can he further clarify it then because -?
D ROY:All IÓm trying to say now, all IÓm trying to say is when I take it out
of John IÒIÓs book, he mentions PuÒu as a place where he received all of his athletic
training in the arts of the aliÒI, and martial arts, and so forth in PuÒu. And I could hardly
seem to think that PuÒu would be limited to this one little spot. It would have to go all
over.
GIFFIN:Right. Thank you very much, Mr. Roy. Mr. Vitousek, any other
questions of the witness?
VITOUSEK:LetÓs see. Mr. Roy, are you aware of any cultural or Native
Hawaiian cultural or traditional practices that are currently carried out on the Snug
Harbor property? And IÓm limiting my questions to this parcel itself, to the Snug Harbor
parcel.
D. ROY:I know. You are doing something that are very common to
developer and present day entrepreneurs. However, and the Hawaiian way of thinking,
this parcel here, the Snug Harbor, refers to a part of KeakealaniÓs residence. And if Snug
74
Harbor were, say, located there in the 1820Ós, it would not be situated as such that you
see now. It would be a part of land close by where Keakealaniwahine residence, resided.
And all I can say about that is that Snug Harbor would not even have occupied the same
general configuration that they occupy now.
VITOUSEK:If it was built in the 1820Ós, is that what you said?
D. ROY:And, so, there were no lands divided up in that manner ex
being bordered by stone walls, which was a common thing that Hawaiians did at the
Mahele.
VITOUSEK:Okay. I understand that statement, I understand your statements.
But the question is whether you are aware of any Native Hawaiian cultural and traditional
practices that are currently carried out on this Snug Harbor property.
D. ROY:I know, I am aware of practices that went on throughout the
Keakealani residence in Kaluaokalani. IÓm aware of that. I assume that Snug Harbor
was included in that.
VITOUSEK:Okay. But my question was, at this time, are you aware of any
Native Hawaiian cultural and traditional practices that are carried out on this Snug
Harbor property at this time?
D. ROY:Again, I have to say, once a place is built on, the Hawaiians donÓt
enter, as a rule. And to respect somebody elseÓs ownership, they keep out of it.
VITOUSEK:Thank you. I have no further questions.
GIFFIN:Thank you. The County?
ISHADO:Madam Chair, with the panelÓs permission, you know, IÓve
the consent of the parties, IÓd like to ask the ChairÓs permission for Mr. Yuen to conduct
this cross-examination.
GIFFIN:Certainly.
ISHADO:And I understand the parties have no objections.
GIFFIN:Anybody objects? Oh, I thought Grant raised his hand but he
didnÓt. Go ahead, Chris.
YUEN:Yes, I just have a few questions. Good afternoon, Mr. Roy.
have a couple of maps by Henry Kekahuna in evidence. I wonder if you could tell us
who Henry Kekahuna was and what sources he used or what people he relied on in
making these maps which have detailed labels as far as the function of various portions of
these historic complexes.
75
D. ROY:Henry Kekahuna was a nephew of Naluahini Kaopua, and George
Penehaka Nelson was another nephew, and together with Homer Haye
Fish & Game warden at that time, they made a trip from Kailua to
South Point, Kalae. And Henry Kekahuna himself was a surveyor, well known to Bishop
Estate archaeologist; Lloyd Sorrens, he was familiar with him; and Theodore Kelsey was
a meticulous note-taker, who was a companion of Henry Kekahuna.
knowledgeable person in that area was Naluahini Kalua Kaopua, responsible for many,
many artifacts and ancient accounts of historic sites here in Kona. And he was a
patriarch of our family. And I remember him as a young boy carrying on his traditional
practices by greeting my father in a chant which took hours and hours. It was so long,
but he was going through a name chant. And when he came to the
fatherÓs name was located, he stopped; and where they would continue on their
conversations. And I was very impressed of him because everyday
the William Paris residence, he would stop by and pick me up on
up to that place at Kainaliu. So Naluahini is well known to me.
And so many, many years later, a person who had married Iolani Luahini was an artist.
His name was, I should remember his name.
M. ROY:John McMann.
D. ROY:John McMann, thatÓs the name of the person. And he and I
to meet each other at the QueenÓs Surf, and that is sometime ago. And after we got
through with our bottle of drinking, heÓd invite me to his apartment to share some more
drinking before we closed the night, and I agreed. And so there at a distance I saw this
black velvet painting of Naluahini. It was shown right through that apartment so clearly
that I told her I said, thatÓs Naluahini, thatÓs my tutu. And he agreed, and I said, well, IÓd
buy it from you, and so I did. And IÓm the only one that owns a
Naluahini at this time.
Several years later, he met an acquaintance in Chicago and came back and offered me
$1,500 for that painting. I just passed it on as a matter of hu
course, it never did transact.
YUEN:Naluahini Kaopua, how far back are we going. Is this a person,
IÓm trying to get at roughly his birth date.
D. ROY:Well, Naluahini died well over 100 years old and so he wa
alive at the time of the 1860s and things like when the influx or the old folks were still
around. And, so, he was the most knowledgeable individual I know of for parts of this
area and historic sites. And, so, he provided all of the information that Henry Kekahuna
received as he drew his maps. And, that is, what you see before you is really the result of
NaluahiniÓs prompting at Kekahuna who laid it out as a surveyor.
76
YUEN:And you would say this was, be true for the map that we have of
Keakealaniwahine and for Keolanhihi?
D. ROY:ThatÓs right. He even had one done for AhuÒena Heiau which I did
not really consider authentic until some years afterwards. At t
presented to me, it was so far different from what it was now that I said it couldnÓt have
been what it was. But I did find out later on that they were true and perhaps thereÓs some
more to it that I have not learned yet.
YUEN:Thank you. ThatÓs, I only had one other question. I meant to ask
you a few questions on place names that you pointed out on the m
clear when a transcript is prepared of this later because the other Planning
Commissioners may eventually want to review the transcript; but I think most of thatÓs
been clarified on the record.
The only one that I wanted to clarify is you talked about a PuÒuhonua and you pointed it
out on the map. Let me just verbally describe that and see if IÓm getting that correct that
thatÓs, PuÒuhonua would be makai of Alii Drive?
D. ROY:Correct.
YUEN:In Kaumalulu ahupuaÒa?
D. ROY:Correct. It would be on the border of Kaumalulu and Hlualoa.
Keolonhihi PuÒunohua of Kaneikaililani is located on the north of the boundary line.
All of Keolanhihi is in Holualoa 4.
YUEN:But there would be, there was PuÒuhonua just across the boundary
on the Kaumalumalu side?
D. ROY:ThatÓs correct.
YUEN:All right.
D. ROY:As much as it is now with the PuÒuhonua where they have
akahipapa as the other part.
YUEN:I did want to ask you another question about something that you
said comparing this condominium with Snug Harbor. And I think y
about that the old Snug Harbor was not as obtrusive as this condominium. And could
you explain in your mind the difference between what is being proposed here and what
was developed at Snug Harbor?
D. ROY:Yes. The Snug Harbor that IÓm familiar with from the tim
conception, probably in passing, was something you never saw fro
77
kept itself to a point where even the buildings are very low and split out and unobtrusive
to the historic site.
Now, as I viewed the model that was presented to us the other day, I said to myself, once
this building is put up the site of KeakealaniÓs residence will be forever lost to the public.
And, at that point, I felt real bad because this is another case of something valuable to the
Hawaiians being passed away in the name of progress. And, so, I must say at this time
that that model completely obliterated any presence of any historic site there.
YUEN:Thank you. ThatÓs all the questions that I have.
GIFFIN:Maile?
DAVID:Thank you. I just have five questions. Aloha, Mr. Roy.
you for your patience this afternoon. ItÓs just, over -, you said that it was over several
decades you and many, many others have advocated and pursued the
sacred sites in West Hawaii. Is that correct?
D. ROY:Yes.
DAVID:And in your opinion, despite your efforts over all these years, do
you agree that past land use decisions have already destroyed many of our sacred and
historic sites?
D. ROY:Land use decisions have been made. What is worse is that, a point,
too, is our government officials such as the Governor have made fallible mistakes in the
disposition of historic sites.
DAVID:All right, so, your answer that many of our sites have already been
destroyed is yes?
D. ROY:ThatÓs correct.
DAVID:Thank you. And in your opinion, Mr. Roy, do you also agre
intrusion and encroachments from past developments around our sacred sites have also
impacted upon our history and our culture?
D. ROY:Yes, definitely so.
DAVID:And do you also agree that Keakealaniwahine, Keolonhihi and
Kaumalumalu have already been severely impacted by the development that already exist
today?
D. ROY:Absolutely. The State has permitted things to happen in
which have divided that property into three sections when it should have been one.
78
DAVID:Thank you. And then under those circumstances that you ju
described, do you believe that the proposed condominium should be built?
D. ROY:In my opinion, this proposed condominium would be disastrous to
the remnant, the memory of Keakealaniwahine.
DAVID:Mahalo. IÓm done. Thank you.
GIFFIN:Thank you. Are there any more questions of the witness?
VITOUSEK:Mr. Roy, I think you testified in your direct testimony youÓre the
Kahu of the AhuÒena Heiau, is that correct?
D. ROY:That is correct.
VITOUSEK:And that heiau is located on the grounds of the Hotel King
Kamehameha, isnÓt that correct? Or itÓs adjacent to the Hotel King Kamehameha?
D. ROY:I vaguely remember that the hotel owned the property from Amfac
and that this historic site was set aside; and so there was a Memorandum of Agreement
for management in this area on the part of the hotel.
VITOUSEK:And wasnÓt that done at the time that the new Hotel King
Kamehameha was constructed, Òcause before had the old King Kamehameha, right -?.
D. ROY:Yes.
VITOUSEK:And then there was like KTA or something, was it, next
D. ROY:Right.
VITOUSEK:And then wasnÓt the Memorandum of Agreement something t
was entered at the time that Amfac got permission to build the new Hotel King
Kamehameha in that location?
D. ROY:That Memorandum of Agreement extended to the management o
the historic area covered by AhuÒena Heiau.
VITOUSEK:Okay. And so the, and correct me if IÓm wrong but isnÓ
AhuÒena Heiau in relatively close proximity to the Hotel King Ka
D. ROY:It is in Kamakahonu which, on which the Hotel King Kameha
rests.
79
VITOUSEK:Okay. And approximately, I think you were in court recently
relative to the proposed State-sponsored improvements of the Kailua pier, isnÓt that
correct?
D. ROY:The new construction, yes, when -. I was denied any discussion on
that.
VITOUSEK:And that construction activity, approximately how far away from
the heiau is that construction activity currently being conducted?
D. ROY:I would say perhaps it is around, at the most at about 50
VITOUSEK:Okay. I donÓt have any questions.
GIFFIN:Thank you. Any other questions, then? Mikahala?
M. ROY:Several points for clarification. The appeal has been made on the
basis of AhuÒena Heiau for an incorrect decision. Much has been left for us in that arena
because it has been designated not only a historic landmark but the evidence that was
borne of the court proceedings proves that this area is sacred. And this is why I asked the
question earlier, are you, my father, working on identifying sacred properties that have
been developed. His answer was yes. This is a classic example of such a property and
this is why it is so pertinent to this discussion at Kaluaokalani, because we are facing the
same matter of non-conformance, non-advocacy of Hawaiian way of life in a time when
those structures were built.
May I ask you, dad, if Hawaiian life way was free to exist in the time that these
businesses, Snug Harbor homes were developed, might there have been a different use by
Hawaiians? In other words, has the involvement of American culture affected the
practice of Hawaiian customs?
D. ROY:It has certainly made an impact in that it has diverted their way of
looking at things and the way of living. They have come on to a classification totally
foreign to their way of life; and today it can be seen that their way of life is far away from
reality. They no longer produce the food that they used to eat; and they cannot live on
their staples anymore; and itÓs too expensive for them to live their own lifestyle. They
must follow the pattern of their colonial U.S.A. And, therefore, I must say that they are
rapidly changing the complexion of the Hawaiian population to that of the white race and
the mixture with the Asiatic. I believe that, in time to come, the Hawaiian race will be a
matter of the past.
M. ROY:May I ask you if itÓs true that there are significant number of
young Hawaiians who desire to know their culture and the truth that which you are
speaking of?
80
D. ROY:There are an unknown number of people, I would say a lot
number of people, who would be willing to follow this thing. However, I must say that
there are a very few people who would stand up in the face of the American onslaught.
M. ROY:Thank you. Chairperson, Chairwoman Giffin, I have more
questions for my father. May I reserve the right to call him back at another time?
GIFFIN:Yes, because I was going to remind you that we not only have a
person who signed up to give public testimony but, also, our third witness for today; and,
as you know, as it turns out, not because of Mr. Vitousek or Mr. Yuen having to go to
another meeting, but one of the hearings officers must also go to another meeting. So we
do have to adjourn today promptly at 4 oÓclock. So, Mr. Roy, mahalo for what you have
told us today and we will through your daughter feel free to call back on you.
D. ROY:Thank you.
GIFFIN:Violet Lehulu Mamac? Is there anyone who has come today
besides this woman to give public testimony on this issue? Okay. And you did not sign
up, right?
PUBLIC:I am a witness for -.
GIFFIN:Oh, no. I meant public testimony. Is there anyone else
signed up to give public testimony today? Thank you. Will you
And because of the time limitation, I am going to limit you to three minutes. Sharon, I
need you to time -.
And if you will come forward Òcause I would like to give the bulk of the time to the
witness who was called on today to give testimony. Will you ple
hand? Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth on this matter now before the Hawaii
County Planning Commission.
MAMAC:I do
GIFFIN:Thank you. Will you please state your name and your resi
address for the record.
MAMAC:Violet Lehulu Mokuohai Puhalahua Medeiros Mamac.
GIFFIN:Okay. And your resident address, please?
MAMAC:ItÓs 74-5080 HoÒolua Street, Kealakehe.
GIFFIN:Thank you. You may begin your testimony and, Sharon, you
ready?
81
NOMURA:Phyllis Fujimoto will do it.
GIFFIN:Okay. Thank you.
MAMAC:IÓm a lineal descendant of the Keakealaniwahine-Keakamahana
Complex. These are my kupuna wahines, Na Kupuna ika w Poe Kahiko, my ancestors.
My dad, Mr. Clarence A. Mokuohai Puhalahua Medeiros, Sr., the late, had given so much
information to a Joe Castelli on our genealogy, on the location of this site and worked
with my Uncle Johnny Medeiros on the Dillingham properties. What I want to say is
why he was not ever mentioned in any of this by Castelli. He was found to be lineal
descendant, my papa, at the DLNR, County and State and in the courts, by Edith
McKenzie also, recognizing our genealogy and why Mr. Castelli did not bring it forward
and had the opportunity to let, I think it was a Credit Corp. Banks to know that this lineal
descendant has been active in trying to get it back and restored, protected, preserved and
perpetuated for many years. And he just went ahead and said give it to the State. And
what does the State do? Nothing. It is a mess. It has been looted in a way where people
go and seek artifacts, take things and corrupt, you know, the area.
Yes, we are active in our native practices there. I do go occasionally to pule. I am very
spiritual. I take that very much and considerate it a portion of my values and my
priorities. And, yes, we did visit while my papa was alive, when I was a little girl to the
pre-teenages with Auntie Edith Kanakaole and Aunty Lokalia who went there and did a
lot of chants. My papa was brought there. But, because this is a womanÓs complex for
the wahine, he was brought there and located many areas where KiÒis were erected Òcause
he is Ka Lai KiÒi. HeÓs a carver of the tikis and also of canoe making, Ka Lai KiÒi, Ka
Lai Waa. And while there, I went with papa because, IÓm not sure if I knew and all of
you knew that in the Hawaiian ways, the daughter is the one that serves the papa.
GIFFIN:Pau?
MAMAC:I just want to say this is why -.
GIFFIN:If youÓll just summarize, please.
MAMAC:I just want to say -. Three minutes is up. This is why w
Hawaiian people, are cut short forever because weÓre on a time basis, that we canÓt even
say nothing, really. And this is sad. ItÓs no wonder weÓre not poha, that weÓre even here
Òcause we are an endangered species.
GIFFIN:YouÓre welcome to come and give public testimony on any o
day that we have for our continuing hearings. The only reason IÓve limited you to three
minutes today is because as you can see and if youÓve been here since 9 oÓclock, we have
witnesses who have been called by the Intervenors. I am happy to call on you tomorrow
if you would like to continue your public testimony; but itÓs just that today our
adjournment time is 4 oÓclock. And we still have a person who is a witness called by one
of the Intervenors that we need to hear today.
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MAMAC:Mahalo for that but this was my only day off.
GIFFIN:I apologize. Thank you. It is your witness, right, Mikahala?
M. ROY:Correct. Ms. Cindi Punihaole.
GIFFIN:Yeah. Okay. And she is here, right?
MR. ROY:Yes.
GIFFIN:Thank you. Will you please raise your right hand. Thank
you swear or affirm to tell the truth on this matter now before the Hawaii County
Planning Commission?
PUNIHAOLE:I do.
GIFFIN:Will you please state your full name and your resident ad
PUNIHAOLE:Cynthia Hanohano Punihaole -.
NOMURA:Please use the microphone.
PUNIHAOLE:Cynthia Hanohano Punihaole Kennedy, 73-4310 Mamalahoa
Highway, Kailua-Kona.
GIFFIN:Thank you. Mikahala?
M. ROY:Aloha, Cindi. Are you a lineal descendant of the familyÓ
at this location of Kaluaokalani?
PUNIHAOLE:I am of the Kamalu line. My ohana ancestors were teac
kumus in the 1800s.
M. ROY:IÓd like to give you an opportunity, free flowing, very shortly to
speak on that topic and your information that youÓd care to give. May I ask you
specifically at this time, in a part of this support of effort of Klana Huli Honua in this
matter, were you a part of the negotiations of our corporation carried out with Wayne
Blasman and Associates?
PUNIHAOLE:Yes.
M. ROY:Would you please describe the negotiations we conducted w
Mr. Blasman to the best of your ability?
83
PUNIHAOLE:Yes. In August of last year, there was a Planning Commission
meeting regarding the SMA permit for a Wayne Blasman property fo
this 1.24 acres at Keakealaniwahine. After the presentations were made from the public
as well as from the developer, Wayne Blasman and Rechtman came u
me if we could talk about doing a settlement on this property because he understood how
sacred and how important this property was in this. I was able to gather some people,
Uncle Mauna Roy, Mikahala and some other folks, who talked about ways that we could
work to either exchange property or find someone that could purchase this property. I
asked Wayne Blasman at that time how much was he looking for as a purchase price. He
would not give us any figures at that time because Jack Kelly was here with us and, of
course, Jack Kelly is a reporter.
So the following Monday, I think it was the following Monday, we did meet at the
Kulana Huli Honua; and at that time Wayne told us that his bottom line was $5 million.
He gave us six weeks to go ahead and look at finding someone that could purchase the
property and look at, for land exchange or something that would satisfy both the
Hawaiian community and his development.
During the due diligence that was done in the following six weeks, we found that the
property market was $800,000. It was very difficult to find someone that would put up
$1.5 million. But, so as we got to the close of the timeframe, in November we met again,
the beginning of November, and we discussed all of these things. And Wayne Blasman
at that time said, ÐStill, you know, my price is $1.5 million, I
And I did explain what we had found in our due diligence; and he needed to have enough
profit margin to make it worthwhile.
I thought that he truly understood the significance of these place, especially this place
because this place is so, itÓs a sacred place. ItÓs like the Washington Monument in the
United States. I thought he understood the importance of keeping some part of our lands
intact so we could teach our children. But I found out that it was, and I thought this, but
maybe he does and -. But he still needed to make his profit. S
significance of it, going through the reports that were done by the Council, who was
Manu Roy, Tom Cummings, all of the write-ups on Keolonhihi as they were looking for
that area to be a State park, all of the environment impact statements, the conceptual plan
from the perspective of the Hawaiian community, Keolonhihi State Historical Park by
by Kumu Pua Kanahele, the Cultural Resource Management Report fo
Keolonhihi, they all state the same thing, it was one complex. Keakealaniwahine
Complex, Keolonhihi, it was divided by the Alii Drive. It was not two separate
complexes.
So what we want to, we felt it so important this be taken care of, we, the stewards of the
land today, to take care of it. So we tried our very best to try to get this land exchanged
or to find the money for you folks. We needed you folks to help
get this done. Representative Cindy Evans wrote HB-179 just for that and Senator
Lorraine Inouye wrote SB-524 just for that, to try to get you the money from Congress,
from the Legislature, to protect this land.
84
So though HB-179 died at WAM. Because, and I truly believe this cause I spoke with
the Clerk there, because we removed the million dollars, we asked DLNR to help look for
funding for you and to look for a land exchange for you.
I know the Trust for Public Lands was there, too, working to negotiate with you. I think
if we had been able to do all of those things November-December and before the
Legislature came into session, we could have had this done and maybe look for a better
place for you. It is not that we had, I know in my heart that d
because we have children that will have children. But there are certain places on our
lands that are very, very sacred to us and these are lands that we need to protect so that a
hundred years from now weÓll still have these places to share. Kumu Pua Kanahele
brings the children from University of Hawaii to this place to teach her children about our
history. A lot of our heirs are being diluted right now. TheyÓve been torn down. We see
it every day. WeÓre diluting our heritage. We only ask you to
said no. We never stood up and made a definite say, decision to say no. WeÓre always
and you know this, Wayne, weÓre always coming from a place of wi
never came from a place of a stand-off; and thatÓs all we were a
is very, very, very important to our Hawaiian heritage.
So these bills that have gone, they have passed. HB-179 passed the House, passed
Finance, went to WAM. Senate Bill 524 passed second reading in, went to WAM, also.
So, strongly, youÓre looking at the Senators who, and the Representatives who, approved
this bill going through their committees. They were all for thi
important this place was. It is unfortunate that it did not pass WAM.
M. ROY:Ms. Punihaole, would you also comment on the County of
HawaiiÓs efforts? Also, would you clarify what is WAM?
PUNIHAOLE:WAM is the committee, Ways and Means Committee, with B
Taniguchi, who is a Senator. Of course, they are the money committee at the Legislature.
M. ROY:Thank you.
PUNIHAOLE:But, you know, itÓs very, one of the things that we look back -.
And Mr. Vitousek, you have been here for such a long time and the questions, that you
ask our kupuna are really questions that are, that an attorney would ask our kupuna. You
see? And it saddens me to hear that. When we talked to Mayor Harry Kim, he said he
didnÓt even know that this place existed. You see, the County never knew. They donÓt
know the significance of areas. It is unfortunate that the County doesnÓt know, that the
Planning Commissioners donÓt know what areas are so important, maybe one knows, but
what areas are so important. It should be before you first so that you can make good
decisions and figure out where people should be able to build or not; and I always
believed that there is a way of moving forward together. And Harry was like that. He
came to us and asked us. Until he saw Kepa MalyÓs writings, our very beloved well-
known historian, on these places that he realized how important it was to take care of this
85
place, you know. And for you, Mr. Vitousek, living here on this island, should
understand it -.
GIFFIN:Excuse me, Mikahala, through you I need to ask you that t
the line of testimony really must stop so that we are no longer speaking in a derogatory
sense about anybody here.
PUNIHAOLE:Excuse me, Ms. Giffin -.
GIFFIN:And I would appreciate that that kind of testimony -.
PUNIHAOLE:ItÓs not derogatory, itÓs not derogatory.
GIFFIN:Well, itÓs not looked upon by me with any kind of grace and
dignity which I would like this hearing to have, and so -.
PUNIHAOLE:ItÓs -.
GIFFIN:I understand that you may have some strong feelings, and I donÓt
blame you. But for this hearing, which I am chairing, I do not
the line of -.
PUNIHAOLETell me what youÓre referring to.
GIFFIN:Well, the personal remarks against individuals in this room. That
really must stop.
PUNIHAOLE:Okay. IÓm sorry.
GIFFIN:Thank you, thank you.
PUNIHAOLE:Okay.
GIFFIN:And we do need some time for cross-examination.
M. ROY:Okay. Cindi, do you feel you need to add anything at this time
before cross-examination?
PUNIHAOLE:No.
M. ROY:Thank you.
GIFFIN:Excuse me. Hannah just suggested something that I didnÓt think
of. Is it possible for the witness to come tomorrow.
PUNIHAOLE:IÓm sorry, I canÓt.
86
GIFFIN:YouÓre working?
PUNIHAOLE:Yeah.
GIFFIN:I apologize. Go ahead, then, please. Mikahala?
M. ROY:Yes?
GIFFIN:Commissioner Springer has just said that if we are not through and,
obviously, thereÓs a lot that you would like your witness to bring out, at 4:30, if she could
be excused to make a phone call to see if perhaps she can go ahead and, you know,
excuse herself from that other hearing that she has a conflict with. Then perhaps we
could continue, you know.
M. ROY:Is that the only party that needs to -?
GIFFIN:Really, yes.
M. ROY:Okay. Thank you.
GIFFIN:And itÓs important that the hearings officers all be here.
PUNIHAOLE:IÓd like to say something to you, Mr. Vitousek. I am, itÓs not a
matter of you personal, you personally, and I donÓt want you to take it like that.
VITOUSEK:Well, you know, I think that the Chairman was just saying that in
line of testimony itÓs a question of whatÓs relevant to the application. And IÓd like to talk
to you afterwards. And so we can talk personally and you can say whatever you want to
say to me, and thatÓs fine. I donÓt want to cut you off on that. I just think itÓs a matter
of -.
PUNIHAOLE:I understand.
VITOUSEK:Yeah, of whatÓs relevant to the issues in the application.
PUNIHAOLE:Yes.
GIFFIN:Mikahala?
M. ROY:And may I say for the record, Ms. Chairman, Chairwoman, rather,
I appeal to your understanding and your compassion of the nature. Again, I go back to
the nature of this kind of hearing, and hereÓs an opportunity to hear truth as it is felt. And
Ms. Punihaole just qualified that it is not personal, and you were kind to help oversee
that, and Mr. Vitousek is a gentleman enough to understand -.
87
GIFFIN:Yes.
M. ROY:And heÓs large enough to understand this.
GIFFIN:Sure. And her passion is well taken.
M. ROY:Thank you. At this time, may we continue in cross-examin
then?
GIFFIN:Oh, yes. IÓm sorry, thatÓs what I was waiting for.
M. ROY:Thank you. So I will yield the floor to other parties.
GIFFIN:Thank you. Commissioners? Hannah?
SPRINGER:No, thank you.
GIFFIN:Grant?
TOGASHI:I just wanted you to clarify that the initial offer that was made from
Mr. Blasman, you mentioned $5 million?
PUNIHAOLE:$1.5 million.
TOGASHI:Was it $1.5 million?
PUNIHAOLE:$1.5.
GIFFIN:Okay, yeah, she said 5. Okay. Hannah?
SPRINGER:Thank you. For Kamalu line, from which you claim descent, is
that the same Kamalu line that was referred to by Mr. Roy in his testimony?
PUNIHAOLE:Yeah, I think so because they were here in the 1840s, for sure I
know, as your lines -. And the Akaa, Ako, Ako o kino lines, yea
SPRINGER:So, in addition to your work with Klana Huli Honua, you also
have a genealogical association to this ahupuaÒa?
PUNIHAOLE:Aye.
SPRINGER:Thank you.
GIFFIN:Lester, I know youÓre waiting. But, Randy?
88
VITOUSEK:No. In light of Commissioner TogashiÓs clarification question, I
donÓt have any more questions. Thank you.
ISHADO:I have no questions. Thank you very much.
GIFFIN:Okay. No questions.
ISHADO:No, you know, we are, of course, caught up in this earlier debate at
the last hearing as to relevancy of, you know, questions about the sale negotiations. But,
basically, what I heard today was, I guess, the feelings or the agony of one person over
this process, and in that sense I think it is probably relevant. And we donÓt have any
further questions on that.
GIFFIN:Did I understand you correctly to say that the statements that were
made by the witness were relevant?
ISHADO:No. IÓm saying her feelings are in terms of how much this parcel
meant to her.
GIFFIN:Were relevant?
ISHADO:Yeah, right. I think itÓs very relevant in terms of, you know, what
she is seeking and how it affects her -.
GIFFIN:Thank you.
ISHADO:But, again, thatÓs, you know, itÓs just a statement.
GIFFIN:Thank you very much. Maile, IÓm sorry to, I called on yo
you have any comments, questions?
DAVID:I just had one. Cindi, would you, in your discussions with
Mr. Blasman or, and thereafter, did you know what Mr. Blasman paid for this property?
Did you come to that?
PUNIHAOLE:I think, if IÓm not mistaken, I think he paid like 685 or something
like that.
DAVID:Thank you. ThatÓs all.
M. ROY:Cindi, oh, excuse me. How many negotiation sessions did we have
with the Blasman party, to your recollection?
PUNIHAOLE:It was about four or five, I think.
M. ROY:Including telephone engagements possibly that you made?
89
PUNIHAOLE:It was probably longer, more because -. You spoke wit
more.
M. ROY:So did we as a group entertain other ideas besides, and other
properties for exchange? Did we attempt to do this for the -? I think you testified earlier
that we did but I just wanted to verify that you said that, that we did, in fact -.
PUNIHAOLE:Yeah, I think we looked at different properties and we looked at
different means of funding to purchase the property.
M. ROY:Did we, in fact, introduce The Trust for Public Lands to
process?
PUNIHAOLE:No, I think The Trust for Public Lands had been into the process,
but IÓm not sure how they got into that process. I just know that they were in that
process.
M. ROY:Do you think negotiations with Trust for Public Lands mig
be possible, in your opinion of how the way things have gone?
PUNIHAOLE:ThereÓs always a hope. I still hope that there can be a win-win for
all of us, for the Hawaiian community and for Wayne. I think thereÓs always a hope, and
I hope that.
M. ROY:Would you state your profession?
PUNIHAOLE:Well, I have several. IÓm a cultural advisor to our b
lands in KkiÒo, which is in Kekaha, Lands of Kona. I am a teacher at Keal
School Ag, in the agricultural sector. And I am also working with KaÓu Hekuanami
Hawaii to build a cultural resource and learning center there.
M. ROY:Are these lands important to the education of Hawaiian children,
these lands of Kaluaokalani?
PUNIHAOLE:I think, you know, as Uncle Mauna Roy had mentioned and several
others mentioned the significance of Kaluaokalani. And if we look back in our history
and, you know, itÓs important for us to understand that there was a time, even in my life
when I was born in 1950 here in Kona, that the kind of awareness that we are
experiencing today as Hawaiians were not there. So there were a lot of things that were
developed and destroyed, or developed and left for the Hawaiian people to have to live
with in those times when I was a little girl.
But I think in the last 10 or 15 years it has been an awakening for us, that if we continue
to have this happen, we may not have cultural traditional proper
can teach our children about our ways of life. We donÓt take care of our watershed or we
90
donÓt take care of our coastlines, the kinds of, we wonÓt have the fish. I hear my dad, as a
kupuna, say today, you know, I can remember when the hopekoola u
place down at Makalawena. There is none today. I would hate for our children, or for us,
or our children as they are, kupuna to say these things because
itÓs all haliÒa, all these fond memories only.
We have an opportunity right now to take care of some of these places. We have an
opportunity to take care of 9,000 acres at Waiaukini in KaÓu which is where the first
Hawaiians landed on this land. But itÓs because we work togethe
Schools with Robbie Hind, people that understand how important it is. It is not only the
property that is important, it is also the ambience of their property. So when you are
looking at viewpoints or viewplanes, you can see what your kupuna saw. ThatÓs why in
Kau 9,000 acres is important, because thatÓs what they saw.
So we try to look at places and we make, and IÓm very, very conscientious about this.
Not all of the places, but there are certain places that are very, very critical; and
Keakealaniwahine, Keolonhihi is one of those places. So, yes, I come from my heart.
But also I come from my head as I did the research on all of these studies, even Roy
TakemotoÓs studies, with Terry doing that EIS statement, the final EIS. Ron and Roy is
saying that, you know, Alii Drive has separated the larger compound into two complexes.
He states it right in his EIS. You know, itÓs not hearsay or, you know, when the
Commission, when the Council came to be. ItÓs the same thing. They were a royal, they
call it a royal center. But it was never to be split up. It just happened to. And all weÓre
asking of all of you Commissioners is to make that decision that we can protect this place
and maybe give Wayne a nicer place, you know, a better place.
M. ROY:Thank you. May I say, ask you, speaking of Bishop Estate
Kamehameha Schools, were attempts made by my father to reach the
answer, help for this, for helping this situation?
PUNIHAOLE:Yes. And for Kamehameha Schools, you know, I talked t
Dr. McGovern and we talked to the Trustees about it because it is Kamehameha we talk
about. And I know Uncle Mauna Roy has gotten in touch with them. Their financial
picture is not a way they can provide that kind of money to a pl
have offered to, on the, once that area is secured to help us on interpretative programs, to
help us develop the areas that we can bring our children to, and on that level. So itÓs on
the other side that they are willing to do that.
M. ROY:A couple more questions, Cindi. When land, there is chan
that there was private ownership, what in your opinion did that do to access to sacred
sites for Hawaiian people? Did it change the situation?
PUNIHAOLE:When it became private you mean?
M. ROY:Yes.
91
PUNIHAOLE:I think so. You know, we lived in an ahuapaÒa, yeah,
Makalawena, KkiÒo, and we never thought of land as being just for one person. We
thought this is the land, and we took care of it. You took care of your extended family,
you took care of your community. You never took care of you, your individual person.
It was always the survival of us dependent on the survival of your community. So
coming into and working in this kind of environment is hard, too, because we have our
own land, we have our coffee land, you know. We work hard on it
can be difficult. It can be difficult for developers. Even like KkiÒo, we talk so much
about how do we have public access down to the grounds, what do we do; and itÓs not
easy, an easy way. But I think if two people can talk through it and come to a really good
way of making both sides happen, thatÓs the way I think it should be.
M. ROY:And is it correct that you have testimony to give today, rendered to
the Commissioners?
PUNIHAOLE:Yes, IÓll give them my testimony in writing.
M. ROY:Would you care to share anything more, highlights of that while
you give them in writing?
PUNIHAOLE:I just want to say very quickly. In May 2001, the ÐEnvironmental
Scan of HawaiÒi ReportÑ was prepared by Diefral Myers, Hazu Tokuue, Bodil Lande, and
Aron Schweitzer and this was as part of the Sustainable Tourism and Environment
Program. Among other statistical data, this report included, it also included interviews
with tourists who visited our lands, and this is one of the University of Hawaii reports.
One of the questions asked was, ÐWhich of the following would you like to see in the
future development of HawaiÒi?Ñ Of all the categories discussed
important categories and the percentages were: Preservation and, these are tourists asked,
right? Preservation of Natural Coastlines is 64.4%; Natural Areas, 52.5%; Cultural
Experiences, 38.8%. Preserving not only our historical properties, you see, but the
ambience of the land is critical; and itÓs critical to continuing the lure of the tourists here.
So money make, if you look at what we have to offer on this island, this is what we have
to offer. ThatÓs why people come here. To take those things into consideration, that
these natural areas, are very important to the success of our tourist industry, too. So,
thatÓs what I wanted to say. Thank you.
M. ROY:WeÓre complete.
GIFFIN:Once again, questions? Hannah?
SPRINGER:Thank you. Your testimony this afternoon has been primarily with
regard to your work with Klana Huli Honua and the possibility of acquisition of the
property in question. Do you visit the property in question for the purposes of traditional
or customary practice?
92
PUNIHAOLE:No, I donÓt do that because I donÓt think -. Because when I go
there to only, Hannah, it is a place that tells you that this is a very special place. So I do
not enter this place because it makes me feel like, at this time and place, it is not for me to
do that. So I respect that as my feelings as I tune it into and they -. Because you can tell,
I can tell when they allow me to do it and when they do not. So
SPRINGER:Would you characterize your not entering the site as a traditional
or customary practice?
PUNIHAOLE:Yes, yes.
SPRINGER:Thank you.
GIFFIN:Grant?
TOGASHI:No questions.
GIFFIN:I have a question. Earlier, Mikahala asked you about
Kamehameha Schools, were there, and the Legislature you spoke of, and bills that died in
Ways and Means. Were there other sources that you explored for money?
PUNIHAOLE:Yes; and one of our team people went to a huge developer. And
we were doing that -. For our due diligence we were doing that because we wanted to see
if we could make this happen. It would have been so wonderful t
happen.
GIFFIN:Right.
PUNIHAOLE:But then, and I have friends in the real estate market
asked them to look and help us figure out the values, because th
be looking at, they couldnÓt, you know, the price that was coming back -. And even
when I asked Mr. Blasman, he also couldnÓt agree with the price
because we knew it was about $800,000. So it was very difficult to move forward. And I
didnÓt want someone giving us money feeling that they have, we were doing it in not an
up-and-up way because it wasnÓt worth that much. But we were going after $1.5. And
when I do go out for fund-raising like I did for the 15 acres of land in KaÓu, I want the
person that gave me that money to purchase the land for our scho
everything about it; and thereÓs no, you know, nothing behind doors that one day heÓll
open and say, ÐWhy didnÓt you tell me that, Cindi.Ñ So -.
GIFFIN:Yeah, yeah.
PUNIHAOLE:So, yeah, we did try; and weÓre still trying, weÓre still trying.
GIFFIN:What about exchanges?
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PUNIHAOLE:WeÓre still trying, weÓre still trying that, too, you know, if we can
find an exchange. ItÓs just that if we could just sit down and talk, you know, about what
can we do, can the price be lowered. You know, those are things that, if we can talk then
I can figure out where we need to go. I donÓt know because we havenÓt talked for several
months now. I mean with WayneÓs, you know, so -.
GIFFIN:Mikahala?
M. ROY:Just to add, that the decision was made to assume and tak
Contested Case; and, so, at that point we have not heard anything more, although we left
the table or the discussion of it not sold off or not closed off, in my opinion. I agree with
Ms. Punihaole, we are still trying. So this whole session is, as far as IÓm concerned, an
opportunity to hear more about our Hawaiian heritage, to clarify things, to put it on
record. But as far as IÓm concerned, it is a costly thing because we are still trying to
satisfy this; and, yet, thereÓs an appeal going on to build and thereÓs a great push to build
this. And, so, we have to go into Contested Case because, just because we havenÓt
satisfied an idea of finding the funds or making a sufficient land exchange. But thereÓs a
rush to do this, to build on the part of the party that is applying.
GIFFIN:Any other comments or questions for the witness? None?
PUNIHAOLE:Thank you.
GIFFIN:Thank you very much for coming and I appreciate your pati
know you were scheduled for just after 1 oÓclock. But, as you could see, our day really
went on longer than we thought; and I do appreciate your patience.
PUNIHAOLE:Thank you.
GIFFIN:YouÓre very welcome.
PUNIHAOLE:Thank you, Commissioners and Mr. Vitousek.
GIFFIN:Mr. Torigoe has some issues heÓd like to raise.
TORIGOE:Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wanted to make sure that
Ms. Roy, were there any exhibits that you wanted to make sure were in at this point? I
know you talked about, what was it, the map, yeah, the map with the cave notation that
was, I think, Ms. DavidÓs number, Exhibit 2.
And I was trying to check the transcript to see if we had made any kind of stipulation
regarding those exhibits. Right? I wasnÓt able to find one real quick, so does anybody
have any recollection about that?
VITOUSEK:I donÓt think we reached any stipulation regarding KlanaÓs
exhibits because they didnÓt provide us with copies of them. Bu
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have no objection to the three maps which have been identified so far. And itÓs also my
understanding that weÓre going to receive some photographs that we will review
tomorrow and probably speak on this. But as far as the ApplicantÓs concern, we have no
objection to the admission of the three maps into evidence.
M. ROY:May I clarify and agree with -. Thank you, Mr. Vitousek,
agree. You will see the photograph at least one tomorrow. There may be more. And,
Maile, tomorrow morning, and thank you, County as well, that will be there.
TOGASHI:Madam Chair, may I ask one question? Would you happen t
photographs, old photographs of the Pakiha?
M. ROY:No, Mr. Togashi, and may I just give you a little informa
this? While I was out in the community and the subject was the discussion of
Keolonhihi, Kaluaokalani, this was in an arena of many non-Hawaiians and they asked
me, ÐWhy donÓt you have photographs? The camera was in place, i
you know, in those early days? Why donÓt you have pictures of t
said, ÐWould you take a camera into your mausoleums? Do you und
of mana?Ñ And they, this is why I erupted earlier today because I find the majority of
non-Hawaiians do not understand, with the exception of those parties that are raised in
Hawaii.
TOGASHI:Thank you very much.
M. ROY:Thank you.
GIFFIN:Any other comments or questions regarding exhibits or entering
any of those things into the record?
HAYASHI:Madam Chair, just for clarification, from Klana we have two
maps, 3-A and 3-B.
GIFFIN:Correct.
HAYASHI:And Mr. Vitousek had indicated they have three, Klana has three
maps.
GIFFIN:Yeah.
DAVID:One of them is my -.
GIFFIN:Maile?
DAVID:Sorry, Mr. Hayashi. One is, the map she refers to is my Exhibit 2.
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M. ROY:So, Ms. Giffin, thatÓs not qualified as my exhibit, then. ItÓs hers,
but -.
GIFFIN:But itÓs in, right?
DAVID:Yeah.
GIFFIN:Okay.
TORIGOE:Okay. So everybody agrees that Ms. DavidÓs Exhibit 2 is in
evidence. And, Ms. Roy, I know you listed also everybodyÓs exhibits so you can use that
exhibit, itÓs in evidence.
M. ROY:Thank you.
VITOUSEK:Ms. DavidÓs Exhibit 2, we have no objections.
GIFFIN:Okay. Hannah?
ISHADO:No objections.
SPRINGER:This is, IÓm sorry?
GIFFIN:I forgot to ask County if they objected and he said, ÐNo
objectionsÑ while you were grabbing the mike Òcause I recognized you. But itÓs okay.
Go ahead.
SPRINGER:This is maybe an awkward question so bear with me. But
recently saw a photograph at the Kona Historical Society which depicted the subject
property with the old Alii Drive alignment. And IÓm wondering if that would be useful to
procure a copy of?
TORIGOE:As you know, in Contested Cases, you know, you need to m
decision based on what is introduced as the record by the parties. And, so, I guess, the
parties are aware of that, at this point. And if any of the parties want to go and
investigate that and see if that might be helpful -.
M. ROY:Klana will procure that. And I believe that the photographs that
IÓm going to admit is of that general area. But IÓm not sure that IÓve seen that and I thank
you, Commissioner, because I think I show an early picture of Alii Drive constructed.
But I would like investigate and ask, I did say two, or perhaps two or maybe three
tomorrow, photographs. Thank you.
GIFFIN:Lester.
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ISHADO:No, the County was going to offer to, you know, try and o
the photograph but -.
GIFFIN:Oh, good.
ISHADO:If Klana Huli Honua has, you know, I guess, resource available,
you know, can we get it?
M. ROY:I wonÓt be, IÓm not sure how early they open in the morni
far as by 9 oÓclock -.
GIFFIN:Maile?
DAVID:This may give some additional information. It depends, IÓve tried
to obtain photographs from the Kona Historical Society before and itÓs a process that
needs, you need to go through and it takes a couple of weeks for them to reproduce and it
does cost according to the size. So as far as getting that in tomorrow, I donÓt think itÓll be
available.
ISHADO:No, you need to save costs for the parties and I think perhaps itÓs
best if the County went ahead and ordered a copy. WeÓll make it available as soon as it is
available to us; and weÓll send a copy to the parties and to the Commission.
GIFFIN:Thank you.
DAVID:I would have no objection to the County paying for that. Thank
you.
M. ROY:Thank you very much, Mr. Ishado.
GIFFIN:If there are no other issues regarding that topic, Mr. Torigoe has
another topic.
TORIGOE:I just want to ask you all to start thinking about how we want to
wind up this evidentiary hearing. WeÓre still looking at trying to schedule something on
thth
July 28, 29, thereabouts, correct? And so IÓm going to try and settle that tomorrow, by
the end of the day tomorrow.
GIFFIN:And the site?
TORIGOE:Right, and the site. Okay. With that in mind, IÓd like to ask you to
just start thinking about how we might facilitate the issuance o
recommendation by this panel. Contested Case Rule 4-29(a) basically says that ÐUpon
completion of taking of the evidence, the hearing officer shall prepare a report, setting
forth findings and fact, conclusions of law, and the reasons therefore, and a recommended
order and submit the report of the case to the Commission.Ñ In this case, you have a
97
panel of hearing officers, and I believe they would probably like to have input from the
parties as to, you know, recommended findings and fact, conclusions of law and order.
So IÓm thinking about us trying to develop various ways in which we might do that. And
IÓd like to ask you to think with me, and maybe we can discuss this more tomorrow if we
have time.
But, basically, I was thinking, one way we could do this to make it as efficient as possible
would be, since we have a break between this set of hearings and what would be
happening at the end of July that perhaps the parties could, those who want to, could
submit a draft, a rough draft of proposed findings and fact, conclusions of law and order
sometime before our next hearing at the end of July, perhaps three before and then
perhaps a week after that the parties could respond to the proposed, the rough draft
th
proposed findings so that by the time you get to the July 20 hearing, the Commissioners
will have a rough draft before them that they can work on. And if the proceedings of the
th
evidentiary hearing is done on the 28 then perhaps the Commissioners or the panel
would be able to, based on Final Argument that may be made at the hearing and based on
the evidence that comes forth, the panel may be able to issue a recommendation and
report right away. So thatÓs one way of trying to deal with this. I just want to ask you
think about that.
M. ROY:Mr. Torigoe, then we need to request the transcripts.
TORIGOE:Well, again, that, well, one thing that we can keep in mind is that
this is a proposed order, itÓs not the final order, so this is something that the
Commissioners, excuse me, the panel would then forward on, you know, once they get
the rough draft and you finish the hearing, and they can take into account all of the
arguments that the parties would make at that final hearing as well as any amendments
that the parties might suggest to the rough drafts that are available, and then issue that as
a recommendation and a proposed finding to the Commission. And then when we, once
you see the report and the proposed findings, then youÓll have opportunity to enter any
exceptions or objections to the proposed findings as it goes to the Commission and then,
of course, when the Commission, the full Commission gets the pro
order, then you can request oral argument and further proceedings to make the final
decision before the Commission. And by that time you should have the transcripts.
M. ROY:Mr. Torigoe, as a lay person as it is, I feel that I need all the help I
can get; and I would desire as much as I can the information that would be, would make
it possible for me to do the work that youÓre requesting. So the transcripts, if they can be,
if it can help us along to that degree, because I feel at a disadvantage as it is because IÓm
not a lawyer.
TORIGOE:Are you thinking of the transcripts from these three day
available for -?
M. ROY:Yeah, if you want to see a proposed, from understanding y
right, the findings of facts.
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TORIGOE:Right. Okay. And this is just an idea IÓm throwing out just to, you
know, possibly move things along as efficiently as possible, as I said. We can talk about
this more tomorrow.
GIFFIN:But think about it so that itÓs not just, you know, laid out on you
and then youÓve got to make a decision because thereÓs time involved in all of this. And,
also, by then we should, by July we should have the CountyÓs presentation and CountyÓs
recommendation.
YUEN:I wanted to hear and question their landscape person before I make
a final recommendation.
GIFFIN:Okay, fair.
YUEN:And I would be prepared to do that after that, my point.
GIFFIN:I knew you would be. ThereÓs no doubt in my mind. Question is,
Schultz. Anything else? Sharon, did you say that the record would be available to us,
too, in two weeks?
NOMURA:No.
GIFFIN:Oh, IÓm just asking. Before the July, though, huh, so we
review.
NOMURA:No, thatÓs what IÓm trying to figure out. Mr. Torigoe mentioned
about three weeks, having it prepared three weeks before that meeting. Did I hear
correctly?
TORIGOE:Well, again, yeah, this is just real conceptual so, you know, that
would be one way of trying to get things done. So, actually, if we expected the parties to
submit something by three weeks before, then, you know, they should have the
transcripts at least a couple of weeks before that, I would think.
GIFFIN:Is that fair, Sharon? You have a date?
NOMURA:Might be just about a week or two -.
GIFFIN:Prior?
NOMURA:Prior.
GIFFIN:Okay.
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NOMURA:Is a week before the due date sufficient for parties to prepare
proposed findings?
M. ROY:So sorry. Could you clarify again? Could you say again, Sharon?
NOMURA:Okay. Mr. Torigoe mentioned about three weeks before the last
week in July, right, that you folks submit proposed -.
TORIGOE:Yeah -.
NOMURA:What about two weeks before that? Well, not two weeks, IÓm
sorry, preferably one week before that. Would one week be sufficient time for you folks
to prepare proposed findings?
M. ROY:For the record, with respect to how youÓre trying to accommodate
and Mr. Torigoe, I just have to register the complaint at being rushed. Because IÓll tell
you that weÓre not scratching the surface when it comes to history of this place and feel
rushed at not being able to present to you more witnesses. Many of these people are not
available because they come long distances but they have great information to share,
thatÓs why theyÓre on the list. So I donÓt want to be rushed.
VITOUSEK:Madam Chair, maybe, maybe the parties can have an opportunity
just to talk about this. We can get back with the Commission tomorrow with respect to
the proposed schedule. Would that be okay? Is that okay?
TORIGOE:Yeah, and I might add, too, that, you know, I just threw out three
weeks -.
NOMURA:If itÓs less than, I mean, if you cut down on your time then it would
be -.
TORIGOE:Yeah, we could, you know, have the initial proposals come in two
weeks before and then have responses a week after that, or whatever works.
GIFFIN:Also, Mikahala, I didnÓt want you to feel that you needed to
eliminate any of the other people who are on your list. You know, they certainly are
welcomed in the July series.
M. ROY:Thank you, and I do believe that you allowed me the abili
bring that up to you again. I sure would like to because theyÓre all there for a good
reason.
GIFFIN:Oh, yes. Well, yeah, and that was I think in part why we agreed to
go on to, you know, the third series of meetings.
M. ROY:Thank you.
100
GIFFIN:Okay. I was just reminded by Mr. Torigoe that we are on record
saying Ðyes,Ñ the third series of hearings are, thatÓs what weÓre willing to do, weÓre
willing to go the whole gamut. You know, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, if necessary.
However, we do need to know that the witnesses are going to be forthcoming, that we do
have a schedule so that when we do make the commitment to be here, that they are. And,
like your father today, you know, if itÓs going to take a day or three-fourths of a day,
thatÓs fine, too. All we need to know is, is it, you know; and then, of course, we need our
staff to coordinate the physical logistics for us which, as he did say, itÓs very costly.
However, weÓre willing to do it; and, as you know, Hannah, Grant and I are doing this all
manuwahi. So, please go for it but tell us.
M. ROY:Thank you.
HAYASHI:Madam Chair, one last thing and just a reminder again because we
have had problems in the past, you indicated the meetings would be Monday, Tuesday,
Wednesday, but unless we secured the place and we know how many
coming on board, we wonÓt be able to do that. So if the parties could let us know
tomorrow, then we can make the necessary arrangements, and it co
Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.
GIFFIN:Sure, I mean, whatever. But if itÓs at all possible, please let us
know, yes, at the end of July or, no, so that, then if all, you know, can go ahead.
M. ROY:Is it proper, could I put in a request to Mr. Hayashi that the Ohana
Keauhou Beach would be desirable for its largeness of access doors, itÓs -. And I know
youÓll need to know the number of people that are, might be anticipated, I do believe, in
terms of witnesses and so forth, so IÓll try my best to provide that as soon as possible.
But just, I want to put in a vote for that location.
HAYASHI:WeÓll look at that as an alternative.
GIFFIN:As the first choice?
HAYASHI:Yeah, first choice.
GIFFIN:Okay. And itÓs our first choice to stay, to sleep too -. Thank you,
Mr. Hayashi. Are there any other comments or any other housekeeping things we need to
do? Then, once again, IÓd like to thank everybody for all of your patience. And, you
know, carrying on a hearing like this with the sensitivity and the depth of the information,
very, very difficult; but I think that weÓre coming along and everything is going very
well. And I congratulate all of you and I thank you. Good night. See you tomorrow.
M. ROY:Thank you.
DAVID:Thank you.
101
GIFFIN:YouÓre welcome.
The discussion ended at 4:34 p.m.
Respectfully submitted,
Sharon M. Nomura
Secretary
A T T E S T:
Geraldine M. Giffin
102