2023-09-28 Fire Commission Minutes

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Hawaii Fire Commission Regular Session Minutes September 28, 2023 Page 11 Chair Kosaki noted that when the decision came down, both the union and the chief had their respective roles to play. He understood that the HFD did not fulfill a particular section related to the movement of personnel. In response, Chief Todd explained that they relied on their legal counsel to manage the case and provide guidance. All their decisions were made in consultation with legal counsel and were based on their recommendations. In this specific case, there was a disagreement between HFD's legal counsel and the union's legal counsel regarding the required actions. This disagreement has created a division, which is why he brought it up with the chair. The union was not satisfied with their legal counsel's advice, leading to some discomfort within the union. As far as the fire chief and his decisions are concerned, they follow the guidance provided by their legal counsel. Chief Todd wanted to make it clear that his comments were not directly related to the case or the decision itself, but rather the unhappiness within the union and the potential for it to be brought before the Fire Commission at some point. Chair Kosaki mentioned that after receiving this information, he spoke with Corp Counsel, their opinion on this was that the law should've been followed. He pointed out that there appeared to be some conflict. Chief Todd inquired about the specific attorney who told him this, but DCC Salas- Ferguson stopped the conversation and emphasized that any discussions with an attorney should remain confidential and not be disclosed. He reiterated that the focus should be on whether the actions were based on fair and appropriate standards of merit. Chair Kosaki expressed his concern that if a court order, which effectively becomes law, was not followed, it would raise questions. He wanted to understand why it wouldn't be followed. He explained that within HFD, there are guidelines, rules, and regulations, and there's the law. While rules and regulations must be adhered to, if there's a law superseding them, the law should take precedence. In this case, the HLRB's decision and ruling constituted a court order, effectively becoming law. If a law mandates compliance by a certain date, it should be followed. DCC Salas-Ferguson noted that Chief Todd had previously explained that he had consulted with attorneys assigned to the matter. Chief Todd clarified that he has an attorney who represents him and there's a lawyer who's representing the County for this particular case. Their legal judgments and interpretations guided his actions. He emphasized that he remained neutral and aimed to satisfy the legal requirements. The internal disagreement between both attorneys centered on the interpretation under 515. They had engaged in multiple exchanges of differing opinions. Chief Todd raised the issue with the chair to make it known that the union was unhappy with the interpretation. He did not intend to delve into specific details but wanted to inform the commission about the union's dissatisfaction with the case.