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So I think those change -, I'm not pushing pollution out of the picture, I'm not saying it's not
<br />important, I'm not saying it's not important to monitor. By golly, it's very important to stay, try
<br />to stay on top of it best we can, because no one wants to do the wrong thing. But the changes
<br />that I think I've seen, I've encountered in our data have been changes in the fish communities,
<br />primarily, the organisms that people use. So the abundance and size of those organisms has
<br />decreased greatly. And there's been some shifts that occur. Other species that previously weren't
<br />very important become more important.
<br />Now somebody might say well, gee, Brock, that's a simple long-term natural fluctuation, longer
<br />term than my life space, maybe 50-year, 100-year fluctuations and things. Could be. I can't say
<br />no. But there's an awful lot of evidence from other parts of the world that over-fishing is doing a
<br />real number in a lot of places and so I think we're seeing some of that here. And so I think that
<br />will be one of the things that will change. And then what will
<br />Let's say we knock the fish communities back. Then you're going
<br />shallow water. You know, I'm talking about the bigger limu. And pretty soon the limu out-
<br />competes a lot of the coral. So those are changes, those are long term. They don't happen over
<br />night, they happen over generations. They take time.
<br />So it's going to be changes probably related to those sorts of things that will happen, and I think
<br />that's what happened on some of the other islands. Go to the Northwest Hawaiian Islands and
<br />look there, you know, up, you know, Northwest Hawaiian Islands a
<br />what you see there. It's phenomenal, just phenomenal. I mean y
<br />are herds of big ulua around you. I mean there's a lot of big predators. The biomass is -, most of
<br />the carbon is tied up in the living biomass, I mean looking at it from a chemical standpoint. It's
<br />phenomenal. And here it's still tied up in the living biomass, but on O`ahu, for example, living
<br />biomass is in the form of plants, of limu and things. So we've done some major changes on other
<br />islands, and that doesn't bode well for here, you know. It just means all of us have to rethink the
<br />way we use things, that's all.
<br />GRAHAM:Thanks very much. I have also been diving the West Hawai`i coast a lot
<br />since 1971, so I'm aware of the long term situation, too. I sure don't want to go into details at
<br />this point. But just completing the loop on what you were saying, if the primary source of long
<br />term deterioration is via loss of the fauna, the particularly the algae eating fish, the plant eating
<br />fish and all, then that's what we certainly have to watch out for.
<br />I also was thinking of I think what you guys would call turbidity, the general quality of the
<br />water. Is there a factor other than the nutrients and the plant growth coming from the nutrients,
<br />is there a factor relating to the clarity of the water that also may be deteriorating for some reasons
<br />you can point out, over a long term, like I was hypothesizing, 50 years or so?
<br />BROCK:Okay. Interesting you mentioned turbidity. I won't say anything about
<br />Hklia, but I will tell you something about Lana`i, unless you want me to talk about Hklia,
<br />th
<br />and you may not. I will say something about Lana`i. On the 29 of January 2002, we had seven
<br />inches of rain on the south shore of Lana`i, as measured at Hulopo`e. I monitor on that coast,
<br />that south coast and the east side of the island. Fortuitously, I was there the next morning, I was
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