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Merit Appeals Board <br />October 25, 2023 <br />takes into your leadership is—and takes the necessary steps to explain as much as possible to <br />these people. And I'm in favor of having something basic. <br />CHR. CABANAS: Yeah, just basic. <br />MR. WISEMAN: Yeah. So <br />CHR. CABANAS: What we found was that he was uncomfortable just by his body language <br />and his facial expression that he didn't realize it was a formal hearing. And so, I tried to explain <br />to him, in general lay terms, what was involved that he would bring witnesses. And then, I <br />noticed he started to shift and he got a little uncomfortable. <br />But it's not only him. I've noticed it—and we have—in a prior appeal hearing where someone <br />represented himself. And this was before you served on the Board. And this person, clearly, <br />didn't know what was involved. <br />MR. WISEMAN: Yeah. And there's an old, sort of, cliche joke—sort of—"He who represents <br />himself has a fool for a client"—okay, but at the same time no matter how basic you explain <br />they're not grasping it. To them it's that fear—it's that intimidation that's blocking any logical <br />explanation, no matter how nicely you put it's—and I've had this experience for years. No <br />matter how nicely you put it, there's a block to accepting that—they can't relate to it. All they <br />can relate to is, "I'm here and I'm on the defense." <br />So, with that in mind, but basically (inaudible) and it could help. <br />CHR. CABANAS: Yeah. I mean, it's just a basic <br />MR. WISEMAN: Yes. <br />CHR. CABANAS: explanation. <br />MR. WISEMAN: Yes. Sure. <br />CHR. CABANAS: Okay. So, is there a motion authorizing me to do the draft of the appeal <br />process just the facts of the appeal process. <br />MR. WISEMAN: Yeah, so moved. <br />MS. MATHEWS: Second. <br />CHR. CABANAS: Thank you. Any discussion? I'll start a rollcall vote with Ms. Mathews. <br />MS. MATHEWS: Aye. <br />CHR. CABANAS: Ms. De Soto. <br />Page 6 <br />