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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2024-05-24 Merit Appeals Board MinutesREGULAR SESSION Merit Appeals Board Hilo Council Chambers Hawaii County Building 25 Aupuni Street, First Floor, Room 1401 Hilo, Hawaii May 24, 2024 (Friday) Call to Order (Item 1) The regular meeting of the Merit Appeals Board, County of Hawaii, was called to order at 10:02 a.m. by Chair Gabriella M. Cabanas, at the Hilo Council Chambers, Hawaii County Building, 25 Aupuni Street, First Floor, Room 1401, Hilo, Hawaii, on Friday, May 24, 2024. Roll Call — Present Ms. Gabriella M. Cabanas, Chair Ms. Gay Mathews, Vice -Chair Ms. Suzi Bond, Member Mr. Charles Kunz, Member Mr. David A. Wiseman, Member Also Present Mr. J Yoshimoto, Assistant Corporation Counsel, Office of the Corporation Counsel Ms. Sommer J. Tokihiro, Director, Human Resources Department Mr. Justin Lee, Deputy Corporation Counsel, Office of the Corporation Counsel Ms. Sherilyn K. Tavares, Deputy Corporation Counsel, Office of the Corporation Counsel Appellant, Employee of the County Ms. Glynis Yamada, Secretary -Reporter, Human Resources Department Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 Call to Order (Item 1) CHR. CABANAS: Good morning, everyone. The regular meeting of the Merit Appeals Board is called to order on this day May 24 h, 2024, Friday, at 10:02 a.m., and we are seated at the Hilo Council Chambers of the Hawaii County Building, at 25 Aupuni Street, First Floor, Room 1401, in Hilo, Hawaii. I'm Gabriella Cabanas, Chair of the Merit Appeals Board. We have quorum today —all five Board members are here in the Hilo Council Chambers —and they are, let me introduce them to all of you. Ms. Gay Mathews, our Vice -Chair. MS. MATHEWS: Good morning. CHR. CABANAS: And to the left of Ms. Mathews, is Mr. Charlie Kunz. MR. KUNZ: Good morning. CHR. CABANAS: And to the left of Mr. Kunz, is Mr. David Wiseman. MR. WISEMAN: Good morning. CHR. CABANAS: And on my far right is Ms. Suzi Bond. MS. BOND: Good morning. CHR. CABANAS: And we also have our Assistant Corporation Counsel, Mr. J Yoshimoto, who is our attorney for the Board. MR. YOSHIMOTO: Good morning, everyone. CHR. CABANAS: And our Board Secretary -Reporter in the back of me seated, is Ms. Glynis Yamada. MS. YAMADA: Good morning. CHR. CABANAS: Also, seated in the gallery of the Hilo Council Chambers are Ms. Sommer Tokihiro, our Director of Human Resources. MS. TOKIHIRO: Good morning. CHR. CABANAS: And attorneys from the Office of the Corporation Counsel, Ms. Sherilyn Tavares and Mr. Justin Lee. Good morning. And seated in the far back, if you could introduce yourselfI think I know who you are. Okay, that's what I thought. Page 2 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 Addendum to Agenda (Item 2) CHR. CABANAS: Okay, is there any addendum to the agenda, Glynis? No addendum —okay. Statements from the Public (Item 3) CHR. CABANAS: Any "Statements from the Public" on the agenda items? No statements from the public. Okay. Approval of Minutes (Item 4) March 12, 2024 (Postponed: April 25 and May 3, 2024); April 25, 2024 (Regular Session); and April 25, 2024 (Closed Session) CHR. CABANAS: We are now on Number 4, "Approval of Minutes." March 12, 2024 (Postponed: April 25 and May 3, 2024) CHR. CABANAS: On the agenda, the minutes for March 12d', 2024, which was postponed at the April 25 h and May 3rd, 2024, meetings. Have you all had the chance to review those minutes? Okay, everyone has reviewed them. Suzi, you reviewed them? MS. BOND: I reviewed them, but I wasn't at the meeting. CHR. CABANAS: You weren't at the meeting. Okay. David? MR. WISEMAN: Make a motion to approve the minutes. CHR. CABANAS: Okay, is there a second? MR. KUNZ: Second. CHR. CABANAS: Any discussion? If not, I'll start a rollcall vote with Ms. Gay Mathews. MS. MATHEWS: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Mr. Kunz. MR. KUNZ: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Mr. Wiseman. MR. WISEMAN: Aye. Page 3 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 CHR. CABANAS: Ms. Bond. MS. BOND: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Ms. Cabanas —aye. Five ayes. Motion carried to accept and file the March 12'', 2024, meeting minutes. April 25, 2024 (Regular Session) CHR. CABANAS: Next on the agenda, is the April 25 h, regular session meeting minutes. Have you all had the opportunity to review those meeting minutes? Yes —okay. Suzi? MS. BOND: I think there should be a correction on page 4, where Mr. Thomason said, "I thought it was quite a change of venue for me" not "got a change of venue" CHR. CABANAS: What page is that on? MS. BOND: Page 4. CHR. CABANAS: Page 4. Okay. MS. BOND: "Hi, everyone, this is my first time here. I came from Civil Service." It says, "got a change of venue for me" —and I thought he said, "quite a change of venue." Is that my imagination? You're on the wrong page. CHR. CABANAS: Okay. I was absent and excused from that meeting because I was sick. So, unfortunately, I did, but — MR. KUNZ: I would defer to Glynis. CHR. CABANAS: Glynis? MS. YAMADA: For clarification, that's what I heard and transcribed it as such. MS. BOND: Okay, but it sounds like —it doesn't sound like the proper word, so I wasn't quite sure. MS. YAMADA: Yes. But it's up to the Board what you'd like to do. MS. BOND: Okay. CHR. CABANAS: Okay. So, I wasn't there at the meeting, so for those of you that were, do you recall what he said? Page 4 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 MR. KUNZ: I do not recall but I would defer to how it was dictated and transcribed. CHR. CABANAS: Okay. Anyone else? Okay. So, we'll leave it "as is" Ms. Bond. MS. BOND: Okay. CHR. CABANAS: Okay. Thank you, though, for your comments. Yes, we do need to read the meeting minutes. Okay. So, where was I? Okay, that was the discussion part, right? Okay. Starting a rollcall vote to accept and file with Ms. Mathews. MR. KUNZ: We didn't make a motion. CHR. CABANAS: Oh, we didn't make a motion. MR. KUNZ: No. For the second —for the executive session minutes. MS. BOND: I move that we accept the minutes for April 25 h MR. WISEMAN: Oh, I did that already —(inaudible). CHR. CABANAS: Yeah, this is the regular meeting minutes. MR. WISEMAN: Right. MR. KUNZ: I'm sorryI thought —yeah, he made a motion for the regular meeting. CHR. CABANAS: Yes, that's where we are. MR. KUNZ: Oh, I thought we went to the executive session minutes that we are on now. CHR. CABANAS: No. MR. WISEMAN: Not yet. CHR. CABANAS: No, not yet. MR. KUNZ: Oh, okay, my mistake. CHR. CABANAS: Yeah. Okay, so we are on the regular meeting minutes. There was a motion made —was there a second? MS. MATHEWS: Second. Page 5 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 CHR. CABANAS: Okay. And then, we were at the discussion no more discussion? Okay, we'll start a rollcall vote with Ms. Mathews. MS. MATHEWS: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Mr. Kunz. MR. KUNZ: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Mr. Wiseman. MR. WISEMAN: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Ms. Bond. MS. BOND: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Ms. CabanasI was not present, so I can abstain, right —okay, for the record, the Chair abstains. Motion carried with four votes and one the Chair abstaining. The regular meeting minutes for April 25 h, have been approved and filed. April 25, 2024 (Closed Session) CHR. CABANAS: Now we go to the closed session for April 25 h, 2024. Have you all had the chance to review those meeting minutes? Okay. Is there a motion to accept and file? MR. KUNZ: So moved. MS. MATHEWS: Second. CHR. CABANAS: Thank you. Any discussion? If not, I'll start a rollcall vote with Ms. Mathews. MS. MATHEWS: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Mr. Kunz. MR. KUNZ: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Mr. Wiseman. MR. WISEMAN: Yes. Page 6 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 CHR. CABANAS: Ms. Bond. MS. BOND: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Ms. Cabanasabstains, because I was not in attendance at the meeting due to illness. And so, motion is carried to accept and file the April 25 h closed session meeting minutes. Review of Executive Session Minutes April 25, 2024 (Executive Session: The Merit Appeals Board Anticipates Convening One Or More Executive Meetings Regarding The Above Matters, Pursuant To HRS Sections 92-4 And 92-5(a)(4), For The Purpose Of Consulting With The Board's Attorney On Questions And Issues Pertaining To The Board's Powers, Duties, Privileges, Immunities, And Liabilities. A 2/3 Vote Pursuant To HRS Section 92-4 Is Necessary To Hold An Executive Meeting) CHR. CABANAS: We are now on the executive session minutes for April 25 h, 2024. Is there a need for us to go into executive session regarding these meeting minutes? Okay, if not, I'd like to entertain a motion to accept and file the executive session meeting minutes for April 251h MR. KUNZ: So moved. MR. WISEMAN: Second. CHR. CABANAS: Thank you. Any discussion, if not, I'll start a rollcall vote with Ms. Mathews. MS. MATHEWS: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Mr. Kunz. MR. KUNZ: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Mr. Wiseman. MR. WISEMAN: Yes. CHR. CABANAS: Ms. Bond. MS. BOND: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Ms. Cabanas —abstains because I was not in attendance at that meeting. Page 7 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 Communications (Item 5) Communication No. 24-03: Received On May 1, 2024, From Appellant, Appealing The Following Actions By The County Of Hawai`i's Department Of Human Resources: Recruitment And Examination, And Classification Or Reclassification Of A Particular Position. Board Action Required: Setting A Hearing Date And Deadlines For Submittal Of Documents CHR. CABANAS: Okay, moving along to "Communications." Mr. Lee and Ms. Tavares, do you want to come up to the dais? (At this time, Mr. Justin Lee, Deputy Corporation Counsel, Office of the Corporation Counsel, came forward.) CHR. CABANAS: Okay, Mr. Lee is. Let the record show he's at the dais. MR. LEE: Hi, may I please —Board, Madam Chair. My request I was just going to make a request to the Board ifI do anticipate filing a motion contesting the jurisdiction of this matter. So, I was going to ask for a deadline as well as a hearing date, on said motion, prior to scheduling a hearing on the merits. CHR. CABANAS: Okay, so let me look at —the Appellant's name is not identified because there's a reason for it —because I believe it's a closed the person requested a closed hearing, correct? MR. WISEMAN: Madam Chair, is this a new one? CHR. CABANAS: Yes, this is a new one. This oneoh, this is the Appellant. Okay. MR. WISEMAN: Mr. Lee, what's the basis of your jurisdiction query? MR. LEE: It's the Countyoh, it will be the County's position that the Appellant should have went through an Internal Complaint Procedure — MR. WISEMAN: Oh, I see. MR. LEE: based on the Appellant's classification/reclassification. MR. WISEMAN: Okay, thank you. CHR. CABANAS: Okay, but that will be addressed later. So, we need to schedule the hearing date this morning, right. Okay, so Glynis has provided me with a tentative date —where is it — it's in this folder, right? Sorry, we have quite a bit of documents here. Page 8 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 Okay, so we're looking at the appeal for the Appellant, who is a County employee, and the date we're looking at is July 15'', 2024. It's a Monday, we're looking at starting at 10 a.m. in the Hilo Council Chambers of the Hawaii County Building, 25 Aupuni Street, First Floor, Room 1401, in Hilo, Hawaii. And the deadlines for the parties the Appellant and the County are as followsI'm going to announce it, but we will send written notification to the Appellant and to your office. So, the deadline for parties to submit their documents, exhibits, witness list, motions, memorandums —is June 10 h, close of business, 4:30 p.m. The next deadline is a deadline for parties to respond, the responsive pleadings will be June 25', 2024, close of business, 4:30 p.m. So, the first deadline, June 10h is 15 calendar days prior to June 25 h deadline; and the June 25 h deadline is 20 calendar days prior to the July 15�' hearing date. Both parties, the Appellant and the County —meaning your office —would need to submit all documents to the Board's Secretary, who is Glynis Yamada, via email and regular mail or hand - delivered —and to the opposing parry. And the documents that are submitted, MAB requires 1-original and 8-copies each for all submittals. Any questions? MR. LEE: No. Thank you. CHR. CABANAS: Okay. So, Board members, are you in agreement with the date for the hearing for the Appellant, on July 15'', 2024, which is a Monday, at 10 a.m., in the Hilo Council Chambers of the Hawaii County Building, in Hilo, Hawaii, at 25 Aupuni Street, First Floor, Room 1401; and the deadlines of June 10h and the second deadline of June 25 h. I need a motion for that and a second. MS. MATHEWS: So moved. MR. KUNZ: Second. CHR. CABANAS: Any discussion? If not, I'll start a rollcall vote with Ms. Mathews. MS. MATHEWS: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Mr. Kunz. MR. KUNZ: Aye. Page 9 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 CHR. CABANAS: Mr. Wiseman. MR. WISEMAN: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Ms. Bond. MS. BOND: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Ms. Cabanas —aye. Five ayes. Motion carried to schedule the hearing for the Appellant on July 15'', 2024, with the two deadlines for both parties, the Appellant and the County, June 10'—and then the second deadline, June 25 h of this year. The Merit Appeals Board will send a certified letter to the County and to the Appellant notifying both of the date, time, location, and the deadlines as I stated. MR. LEE: Okay. Thank you. CHR. CABANAS: Okay. Thank you. Communication No. 24-04: Received On May 8, 2024, From Appellant, Appealing The Following Action By The County Of Hawai`i's Department Of Human Resources: Classification Or Reclassification Of A Particular Position. Board Action Required: Setting A Hearing Date And Deadlines For Submittal Of Documents CHR. CABANAS: We are now on Communication Number 24-04, from the Appellant, who is here this morning —if you want to come up to the dais, you can. Okay, you can come up front if you'd like to. (At this time, the Appellant; and Ms. Sherilyn K. Tavares, Deputy Corporation Counsel, Office of the Corporation Counsel, came forward.) CHR. CABANAS: Ms. Tavares, you are representing the Office of the Corporation Counsel for this appeal? MS. TAVARES: Yes. CHR. CABANAS: Okay, great. I'm glad to have both of you up front. Okay, so we're looking because we have a hearing in Julyoh, yes, go ahead. You have to press the right button on the bottom. Okay, it's on. Your mic. is on. Page 10 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 MS. TAVARES: I'm not sure the procedure and I apologize for it, but I believe the Appellant asked for a closed hearing. CHR. CABANAS: Closed hearing, exactly. The Appellant's name will not be on the minutes. MS. TAVARES: Okay, I just wasn't sure but I wanted to protect the Appellant (inaudible). CHR. CABANAS: Oh, no, of course —we need to protect the Appellant's identity but because I'm because the Appellant is here, I want to personally address the Appellant — MR. WISEMAN: Madam Chair? CHR. CABANAS: Yes? MR. WISEMAN: Excuse me, but is a closed hearing a prerogative of either parry or just the Appellant? CHR. CABANAS: The Appellant. MR. WISEMAN: Okay. So, the Counsel, really, has no standing to request a closed hearing? CHR. CABANAS: No the Appellant. MS. TAVARES: I'm not requesting it. I just wantedI wasn't sure the Board's procedure in it. MR. WISEMAN: I see. Okay. MS. TAVARES: I've been in other boards and commissions where they kicked everyone out and I understand there's not much people here. But I just wanted to clarify `cause I saw that noted on the Appellant's appeal. I'm not asking for it. MR. WISEMAN: Oh, okay. Thank you. CHR. CABANAS: We don't have to close the hearing for now, but once the hearing is scheduled and ongoing, it will be closed. The doors will be locked —no one else will be in the room other than the Board, you, and the attorney. In fact, we do have a fact sheet that we are going to finalize today about the process involved for an appeal hearing, so that you can adequately —both parties —can adequately prepare for the appeal hearing. So, the Board has been working on that for a couple months and we're about ready to finalize it today. Yeah, so we will send it out to all appellants and to the Office of the Corporation Counsel. MS. TAVARES: Perfect. Thank you for the clarification. Page 11 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 CHR. CABANAS: Okay. So, we have a hearing in July, and our hearings are in accordance with our monthly meetings. And I don't want to put this off and stretch it out. So, the next hearing date would be in August. I know that sounds so far out, `cause we are at the end of May. So, I just ask for your patience. There are deadlines, as you're going to hearI'm going to read it to you the way I did for the other hearing. And then, we will mail you a certified letter. So, we're looking at August 12d', 2024, which is a Monday, at 10 a.m. here in the Hilo Council Chambers of the Hawaii County Building, at 25 Aupuni Street, First Floor, Room 1401, in Hilo, Hawaii. The deadline to submit documents, exhibits, witness list, motions, memorandums —will be July 8 h, which is a Monday, close of business, 4:30 p.m. I don't know if you want to write this down — APPELLANT: I will wait for your CHR. CABANAS: For the letter? APPELLANT: Yeah. CHR. CABANAS: Okay. And then —and so this deadline is 15 calendar days prior to the next deadline, which is July 23rd. And this deadline is for the parties, both of you, to respond —it's responsive pleadings. And the deadline is close of business, 4:30 p.m., on July 23rd. Okay. Now, this deadline is 20 calendar days prior to the August 12d' hearing date. Okay. You would need to submit all of your documents to the Board's Secretary, Glynis Yamada, via email and regular mail or hand -delivered, and to the opposing parry. Okay. And the documents, MAB requires 1-original and 8-copies of each document. Okay. We will send you a certified letter notifying you of the date, time, location, and deadlines. Okay. So, the date, again, is August 12d', 2024, for the hearing. Time10 a.m. here in the Hilo Council Chambers of the Hawaii County Building, at 25 Aupuni Street, First Floor, Room 1401, in Hilo. So, Board members, are you in agreement with the date of the hearing and the two deadlines for submittal of documents —and, if you are, I need a motion and a second. MS. BOND: So moved. CHR. CABANAS: Thank you. MS. MATHEWS: Second. Page 12 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 CHR. CABANAS: Thank you. Any discussion? If not, I'll start with a rollcall vote with Ms. Mathews. MS. MATHEWS: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Mr. Kunz. MR. KUNZ: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Mr. Wiseman. MR. WISEMAN: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Ms. Bond. MS. BOND: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Ms. Cabanas —aye. Five ayes. Motion carried to schedule the hearing for the Appellant on August 12d', 2024, at 10 a.m. here in the Hilo Council Chambers, with the deadlines of July 8 h and July 23rd for the submittal of documents. Okay, any questions? MS. TAVARES: I actually had some questions I wanted to ask for clarification, just so that the County is able to properly file motionsmainly, the biggest question is jurisdiction and whether MAB has jurisdiction over what we are presuming is being presented in the Appellant's documents. CHR. CABANAS: So, that would be addressed at the time of the hearing. MS. TAVARES: Okay. CHR. CABANAS: Because we're not going to discuss the merits of MS. TAVARES: Right. CHR. CABANAS: the case today. MS. TAVARES: Right. CHR. CABANAS: Right. MS. TAVARES: But what I wanted clarification on was because the document that was provided just so I know what I'm going to be presenting in my motion there isn't a legal basis presented in that document. And so, searching and trying to figure out from what we Page 13 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 received is what is the actual complaint? Is it —because it's my understanding the position has and I apologize for my ignorance in all of these human resources terms that I'm not fully understanding of —but the classification/reclassification is what is checked off. CHR. CABANAS: Correct. MS. TAVARES: So, is it that that's what we're proceeding on because it doesn't appear to be the issue. CHR. CABANAS: That's what the Appellant's appeal is based on. MS. TAVARES: Okay. CHR. CABANAS: Yeah. The Appellant is in that position. MS. TAVARES: Correct —but my question isis the Appellant opposing that reclassification — that's what is very vague and it's void in all of the documents that were presented —like, is that what the issue is? MR. WISEMAN: Madam Chair, if I may? CHR. CABANAS: Yes, Mr. Wiseman. MR. WISEMAN: Yeah. Ms. Tavares, it would be subject to a motion to dismiss. MS. TAVARES: Yes. MR. WISEMAN: It's almost touching on the merits. MS. TAVARES: Okay, that's fine. I just wanted to see if I can get that from the Appellant but I understand. MR. WISEMAN: You can raise all those things in the motion. CHR. CABANAS: Yes. And then, both of you will be submitting your documents. MS. TAVARES: Right. CHR. CABANAS: So, you'll be able to assess as those documents are submitted. But, again, the merit of the case will be at the August 12'h hearing. Mr. Wiseman is correct. MR. WISEMAN: And, of course, the Appellant having no attorney, as you know, you're free to talk to her. MS. TAVARES: Okay. Page 14 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 CHR. CABANAS: Well, up to a certain point. I mean, as the Appellant, you can bring an attorney, you can bring a personal representative —it can be anybody. You can bring a union agent, if you wish, to help you in your appeal. You don't have to come by yourself. But, again, the fact sheet that we will finalize today, will the intent from the Board was to make it clear for everybody as to what's involved. FEMALE SPKR.: Okay. CHR. CABANAS: Yeah. So that no one comes lost in a hearing. It is a hearing. So, the fact sheet will explain it. It's an informational sheet, basically, what it is. It will help you —it will help you. We want it to be a fair process for everyone —where concerns are aired during the hearing itself. MS. TAVARES: Thank you. CHR. CABANAS: Appellant, you have any questions? APPELLANT: No questions. CHR. CABANAS: Okay. And any further questions? MS. TAVARES: No. Thank you for answering the clarification. I appreciate it. CHR. CABANAS: The informational sheet will help both of you. MS. TAVARES: Okay. MS. MATHEWS: Madam Chair, can I have a clarification on whether it's really okay for Corp. Counsel to talk to the Appellant? CHR. CABANAS: Noit'sI said "no." MS. MATHEWS: Okay. I just wanted to make sure that was very clear. Okay. CHR. CABANAS: Yeah. The Appellant has its case, you have your case. MS. TAVARES: I understand. CHR. CABANAS: Both cases the part of the exchange of information is the submittal of those documents. The July 8 h is when you can submit documents, your exhibits, your witness list, motions, memorandums. You do the same thing. Page 15 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 Then on July 23', is the deadline for you folks to respond in writing but it comes to the Board. You don't exchange it that way amongst yourselves. You get what I'm trying to say? FEMALE SPKR.: Yes. CHR. CABANAS: Yeah. The information will come to the Board but you get to view each other's submittals in writing not in a discussion. MS. TAVARES: I won't contact the Appellant. CHR. CABANAS: Yeah. (Inaudible) that's it. So, I want to thank you both. Appellant, thanks for coming today. APPELLANT: No problem. CHR. CABANAS: And, Ms. Tavares, thank you for coming today as well. MS. TAVARES: Thank you. New Business (Item 6) CHR. CABANAS: Okay. So, there is no "New Business." Unfinished Business (Item 7) Discussion Concerning The Appeal Process And Providing A Fact Sheet For Individuals Who File An Appeal (Note: The Above Matter Was Listed On The Following Agendas: October 25 And December 21, 2023; February 23, March 12, April 25, And May 3, 2024.) CHR. CABANAS: We are now on "Unfinished Business" for discussion. Oh, J, you are back. We are now on Number there was no "New Business" but we are now on Number 7, "Unfinished Business" for discussion and appropriate action. And this involves discussing the appeal process and providing an informational sheet for individuals who file an appeal. Note the above matter was listed on the following agendas October 25 h and December 21, 2023, and then again, February 23, March 12d', April 25 h, and May 3rd, 2024. So, you can see we have been working on this informational sheet from October. And we are ready toI hope to finalize it today. Have you all had the opportunity to review the fact —the informational sheet? MR. KUNZ: Madam Chair, may I make a motion to move the "Director's Report" up? Page 16 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 CHR. CABANAS: We can. Does the Board want to move the "Director's Report" above, before the "Unfinished Business?" MS. BOND: It makes sense. I mean, that she doesn't have to sit here —she can go, actually, get work done. CHR. CABANAS: Okay. MS. BOND: Unless she doesn't want to go. MS. MATHEWS: And is there any way that we can actually do that on a more permanent basis rather than moving this every time? We just move that up below the minutes? CHR. CABANAS: I can check with our Secretary. The question isor, J, to move the "Director's Report" for each month, above "Unfinished Business." MR. YOSHIMOTO: Yeah, that's fine. CHR. CABANAS: Can do? MR. YOSHIMOTO: Yeah. CHR. CABANAS: It's okay. So, is there a motion to do that? MS. MATHEWS: So, I move that we move the "Director's Report" immediately after the minutes and before "New Business." CHR. CABANAS: Is there a second? MR. WISEMAN: I'll second it. Sure. CHR. CABANAS: Thank you. Any discussion? If not, I'll start a rollcall vote with Ms. Mathews. MS. MATHEWS: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Mr. Kunz. MR. KUNZ: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Mr. Wiseman. MR. WISEMAN: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Ms. Bond. Page 17 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 MS. BOND: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Ms. Cabanas —aye. Motion carried to move the "Director's Report" here on out, to be immediately after the approval of any meeting minutes we have. Okay, very good. Okay, so MR. KUNZ: Do we need a motion to CHR. CABANAS: Yes. MR. KUNZ: Okay. CHR. CABANAS: I'm sorry, we didn't do your motion to take the "Director's Report" MR. KUNZ: —out of order. Well, yeahso, I'd like to move to take the "Director's Report" out of order and hear it now, and do "Unfinished Business" last. MS. MATHEWS: Second. MR. KUNZ: I'm sorry —after that —sorry, not last. MS. MATHEWS: Second. CHR. CABANAS: Thank you. Any discussion? If not, I'll start a rollcall vote with Ms. Mathews. MS. MATHEWS: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Mr. Kunz. MR. KUNZ: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Mr. Wiseman. MR. WISEMAN: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Ms. Bond. MS. BOND: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Ms. Cabanas —aye. Page 18 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 Five ayes. Motion carried to hear the "Director's Report" out of order prior to the "Unfinished Business" on the agenda today. Director's Report (Item 8) MAB Monthly Divisional Activity Report: May 2024; And Update Regarding The Length Of Time To Hire New Employees As Requested By The Merit Appeals Board CHR. CABANAS: Hi, good morning, Sommer. (At this time, Ms. Sommer J. Tokihiro, Director, Human Resources Department, came forward.) MS. TOKIHIRO: Hi, good morning. I was actually going to request executive session for the "Director's Report" today due to the follow-up on the questions that arose from last time. CHR. CABANAS: Okay. Is there a motion to entertain her request to go into executive session? MS. MATHEWS: So moved. CHR. CABANAS: Is there a second? MS. BOND: Second. CHR. CABANAS: Any discussion? If not, I'll start a rollcall vote with Ms. Mathews. MS. MATHEWS: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Mr. Kunz. MR. KUNZ: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Mr. Wiseman. MR. WISEMAN: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Ms. Bond. MS. BOND: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Ms. Cabanas —aye. Five ayes. Motion carried for the Board to enter into executive session to hear the "Director's Report" for today. So, I'm going to ask that our secretary secure the Councilroom. Page 19 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 Appellant, you can wait outside. If you want to come back to hear the informational sheet on the appeal process, you can when we're done. APPELLANT: Okay, thank you. CHR. CABANAS: Okay, thanks, Appellant. MS. MATHEWS: Sommer, moving that up had nothing to do with keeping you from hearing anything else, but allowing you the opportunity to go back to work, if you wanted to. MS. TOKIHIRO: Thank you. I appreciate that. CONVENE: The executive session convened at 10:33 a.m. RECONVENE: The meeting reconvened at 11:27 a.m. in open session. CHR. CABANAS: It is now 11:27 a.m. We are now in open session, exiting from the executive session of the "Director's Report." MAB Monthly Divisional Activity Report: May 2024; And Update Regarding The Length Of Time To Hire New Employees As Requested By The Merit Appeals Board MAB Monthly Divisional Activity Report: May 2024 CHR. CABANAS: So, may I have a motion to accept and file the Director's MAB Monthly Divisional Activity Report for May 2024. MR. WISEMAN: So moved. CHR. CABANAS: Second? MS. BOND: Second. CHR. CABANAS: Thank you. Any discussion? If not, starting a rollcall vote with Ms. Mathews. MS. MATHEWS: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Mr. Kunz. MR. KUNZ: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Mr. Wiseman. Page 20 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 MR. WISEMAN: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Ms. Bond. MS. BOND: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Ms. Cabanas —aye. Five ayes. Motion carried to accept and file the Director's MAB Monthly Divisional Report for the Month of May 2024. Update Regarding The Length Of Time To Hire New Employees As Requested By The Merit Appeals Board CHR. CABANAS: May I have a motion to accept the director's report regarding the "Update on the Length of Time to Hire New Employees as Requested by the Merit Appeals Board." MR. KUNZ: So moved. MS. MATHEWS: Second. CHR. CABANAS: Thank you. Any discussion? If not, I'll start a rollcall vote with Ms. Mathews. MS. MATHEWS: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Mr. Kunz. MR. KUNZ: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Mr. Wiseman. MR. WISEMAN: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Ms. Bond. MS. BOND: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Ms. Cabanas —aye. Motion carried to accept and file the director's report on the length of time to hire new employees as requested by the MAB. Are there any "Announcements" at this time? Oh, yes Page 21 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 MS. TOKIHIRO: Sorry, I'm going to go back to my office if that's all right? CHR. CABANAS: Yes, thank you. Yes, you may be excused, Sommer. MS. TOKIHIRO: Yeah, thank you. But before I do —so I just wanted to thank Mr. Wiseman for his service on the Board. I understand that this is your last meeting, but I just wanted to say, "thank you" and it was a pleasure interviewing before you and then also getting to work with you in these last few months. MR. WISEMAN: Thank you for that I appreciate it. MS. TOKIHIRO: Thank you. MR. WISEMAN: Thank you. CHR. CABANAS: Thank you, Sommer, for your reports today. MS. TOKIHIRO: Thank you —bye-bye. Unfinished Business (Item 7) Discussion Concerning The Appeal Process And Providing A Fact Sheet For Individuals Who File An Appeal (Note: The Above Matter Was Listed On The Following Agendas: October 25 And December 21, 2023; February 23, March 12, April 25, And May 3, 2024.) CHR. CABANAS: Okay. So, we are now on "Unfinished Business" for discussion and appropriate action. The discussion concerning the appeal process and providing an informational sheet for individuals who file an appeal. We have the informational sheet for appeal hearing process and the input that was provided, as we requested of Amanda Donlin, the Supervising Deputy Attorney General —and she did make one notation, if you can look at your informational sheet. MS. MATHEWS: On that same page, why do we have a blank bullet? CHR. CABANAS: Because if you look at the track changes on the previous document, we lined out "Strict rules of evidence will not apply." So, when we finalize it, Glynis will move it up. So, let's look at Amanda's —on the second page, look at what's highlighted where it says, "The County has the same opportunity to make a brief opening statement but may waive doing so `or defer giving their opening statement to before they present their case -in -chief. "' This was Amanda's recommendation. MR. WISEMAN: That follows court procedure. Page 22 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 CHR. CABANAS: Yes, it is legal verbiage but I think we should be mindful of our intent to not make it so much with legal verbiage. MS. BOND: Right. Yeah, `cause it really sounds like a word salad there— CHR. CABANAS: Yes. MS. BOND: And to your average idiot on the Board, it's kind of like no, wait, now I have to stop and think about this three times. MR. WISEMAN: Usually, strategically in court, it's a mistake to do that —to wait until CHR. CABANAS: Oh, is it? MR. WISEMAN: because when we had the jury trial, for example, and the prosecutor gets up, he tells his story —if they know what to do they tell a story. They don't say, "The evidence will show" —forget that. They tell a story, the jury hears that. And then, the trial begins with witnesses. So, they don't have the other sides position until after all that —of the prosecution finishes. Then the defense comes up and states his position, but the jury's already, pretty much, preoccupied with that position. MS. MATHEWS: So, why would somebody do it? MR. WISEMAN: Because they have nothing to say maybe. MS. MATHEWS: And then, they suddenly decide they do? MR. WISEMAN: Yeah. MS. MATHEWS: Okay. And does this change the balance if the County has an opportunity but the Appellant does not? CHR. CABANAS: Well, that's basically what David is saying because they're hearing a whole bunch of information at the very onset —that information gets implanted in, let's say, jurors' minds. In our case, it would be Board members' minds. MS. MATHEWS: Right. But that doesn't change if the Appellant is nervous and says, "No, I'm not going to say anything." And then, down the road they say, "Oh, I do want to make an opening statement." MR. WISEMAN: Then the evidence would have been proceeding already. CHR. CABANAS: Yeah. MR. WISEMAN: I mean, if they don't make an opening statement, that's their right I think. Page 23 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 CHR. CABANAS: Yeah, you're right. MR. WISEMAN: You don't have to make an opening statement. MS. MATHEWS: Right. MR. WISEMAN: So then, the proceeding just goes along. MS. MATHEWS: And there would be no reason for an Appellant to do so later on. CHR. CABANAS: Right. MR. WISEMAN: Yeah. CHR. CABANAS: I would just like to interject that the bullets down below, it says that our the opening statement is limited to 3-minutes and it's a broad overview of the complaint. So, we do explain that but, you're right, we're giving both sides the opportunity to present their opening statement. MR. WISEMAN: Is it —that was my concern is you mentioned there's some time elements there? CHR. CABANAS: We did put it in. MR. WISEMAN: Okay, good. CHR. CABANAS: And we put it in, basically, following the Council —our County Council, in allowing persons to testify they follow a 3-minute rule and they time it. So, we could do the same thing. MR. WISEMAN: Yeah. If it's not a specific time that the Chair and the Counsel has discretion, too. CHR. CABANAS: Correct. MR. WISEMAN: Yeah. MS. BOND. So, the other side starts first —the Appellant says —is allowed to make an opening statement —that says, "you are allow to make a brief opening statement"so, that's the Appellant, right? CHR. CABANAS: Yes. MS. BOND: The bullet above that? Page 24 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 CHR. CABANAS: Yes, correct. MS. BOND: So, then, it says, "The County has the same opportunity CHR. CABANAS: Yes. MS. BOND: And then they "may waive doing so" or word salad, word salad, word salad. Okay. MS. MATHEWS: So, going back to my original objection to a lot of this in the first place —is — "It is not an opportunity for a party to make arguments or to provide testimony" that's all very well and good if you're an attorney. If you're a layperson, who has no idea about how this works —what defines an argument or testimony is actually a legal thing as opposed to what would be common sense to the person that is driving the truck — MR. WISEMAN: Exactly. And, if you recall at the last hearing we had, I kept interrupting that goes to the merits, we're not asking that. So, it takes the Counsel and the Chair to, sort of, reign that in when it gets there. That's all. MS. MATHEWS: My problem that pushed us back to the original issue of it seems like there's a huge imbalance. You've got an attorney who's had three years of legal training and umpteen million years of working —and you have somebody that has no legal training whatsoever and they don't understand this, and all it's going to feel like is that people up on high are beating up on the little guy when you got two other attorneys sitting there. That's where it goes back to is the issue of fairness and I don't know how to get past it. MR. WISEMAN: Yeah. Well, there's nothing really (inaudible) do, but most lay people will think that they just tell their story. And we just have to rein that in and explain to them as basic terms as possible that you'll have an opportunity to state that later on —right now, there's a question and we just want to answer the —have the question answered. It's always going to be a problem with lay people. MS. BOND: Well, I think that maybe if you —in "you are allowed to make a brief opening statement" which is just tell your story without any evidence. And somehow put that in there that what we don't want to hear is seven miles of your evidence. What we just want to hear is why you're here. MR. WISEMAN: Yeah. But the lay people always going to interject when they feel they need to tell a story. In fact, as they call it in court —it's called a "pro se" —someone who represents themselves that in court there's an old cliche, "He who represents himself has a fool for a client." Page 25 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 And there's the (inaudible) judiciary has a binder about 4-inches thick on pro se —how to handle pro se's. It's a real problem in court. Yeah. CHR. CABANAS: Yeah. I (inaudible) certain things that are beyond our control. MR. WISEMAN: Yeah. CHR. CABANAS: And I think the informational sheet serves to help both sides because you heard this morning, the County attorney had questions, and we're not going to go into the merits, which the informational sheet will help both of them both parties. MR. KUNZ: I think if —today was a really great example of how understanding procedures not only the lay person but even counsel —and if there's a matter of semantic issues on this sheet —one, would we not be able to act as guideposts during the process, which I think Ms. Bond, kind of, clarified if we say, "Just tell your story." I think because I have a feeling it would be difficult to get around some of the jargon without us dissecting this another time versus if we understand that we create those guideposts, as needed, and there's five of us that are able to, kind of —should be able to catch that. I'd feel comfortable with that versus if we're always having to re-create the moment. And I get, Gay, your point completely because it isI could read this and go, "What does that mean?" So, I can imagine any layperson having the same difficulty, but I believe it would be our responsibility to set that little groundwork as we go forward with each individual. `Cause I think we already know, certain sections, they're going to get caught and it's really up to us to help clarify it. I think that makes it more fair. Thank you. MR. WISEMAN: Yeah. The (inaudible) state of any layperson coming into a governmental hearing whether it's court, here, or otherwise —is intimidation —absent the constant litigator who just loves to litigate. We had one in the —well, you weren't there, J—but the Ethics was iton the Planning Ethics or something. I mean, there was an appellant there who just appeals everything. She was really a constant litigant. In fact, there's one term called "vexatious" litigator, which I declared one time and they appealed it —and the Circuit Court of Appeals actually affirmed that —and what that means is the court would not accept any filings from that person unless it's approved first. But, again, going backso, someone coming in here —it is intimidation. But I think all of us have that awareness and we try to comfort the people, so —and that's all it's going that's what it's going to take. Yeah. MS. BOND: So, it's almost like we should say or defer giving their opening statement —"my mom made me say this" —kind of a thing. So, I mean, if she really insists that we put it in there, then I guess we should put it in there. But, once again, as soon as you start adding word salad into something that people don't understand, then it defeats the purpose of this. Page 26 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 So, I don't know how toI mean, I understand her point, however, she's mulling —muddying the waters by doing it. MS. MATHEWS: Can we get away with just doing it —the first part of the highlighted yellow "or defer giving their opening statement" period. MR. WISEMAN: Yeah, I agree with that. I don't like the rest of the words. I mean MS. BOND: Yeah, that's where it becomes the word salad. CHR. CABANAS: Well MR. WISEMAN: Ask any appellant coming in here —layperson —what "case -in -chief 'means. CHR. CABANAS: Well, what threw me off is the part that says —okay, I understand everything but what threw me off was the part where it says, "or defer giving their opening statement" okay, that's okay. The word "to" what does that "to" mean? MR. YOSHIMOTO: I think she might mean until MR. WISEMAN: I like Gay's offer. CHR. CABANAS: Yes, but I think at some point we need to give them parameters because the analogy I'm going to use iswe want to keep them on a river because the river has banks to the river. We don't want them going out to the ocean the wide ocean. We need to give them parameters. So, yes, they can defer giving their opening statement before they present their case period. MR. WISEMAN: Right. CHR. CABANAS: We don't want them giving their opening statement at the very end. MS. BOND: Before they present their case. CHR. CABANAS: Yeah, before they present their case, what is the overview that's my suggestion. MS. BOND: So take out "to" and take out their "case -in -chief." CHR. CABANAS: Yeah, their "case -in" —take out "in -chief '-just say, "present their case" period. Yeah. I don't know if you folks agree with that but that would keep them on the river. You don't want them going to the ocean. Page 27 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 There's other changes that I do want to suggest as well. Because I read this again with an eagle eye. They're not big changes, they're just minor changes to be —for us to be consistent. What's Glynis' point? MR. YOSHIMOTO: In the sentence above, where it's highlighted in yellow. It says, "You are allowed to make a brief opening statement if you wish but you are not required to do so." So, that's not as that's not the same thing as the highlighted paragraph. CHR. CABANAS: No. MR. YOSHIMOTO: So, the question is whether you want to apply the same parameters or MS. BOND: Or they can defer giving their own (inaudible) statement until later. MR. YOSHIMOTO: Right, exactly. MR. WISEMAN: Yeah, I mean, both parties are allowed to make an opening statement if they wish. I wouldn't go beyond that. I don't see any need to. MS. MATHEWS: Oh, that's a nice consolidation. I, kind of, like that. MR. WISEMAN: Yeah. MS. BOND: Yeah, that's true. CHR. CABANAS: Oh, so just don't even use her suggestion? MR. WISEMAN: Yeah, if any questions MS. BOND: (Inaudible) both sides are allowed to make a brief opening a statement or may defer it, if they so wish. CHR. CABANAS: Why did she add this in then? MR. WISEMAN: Yeah, and then the lawyers used to get paid by the word. They did, in England —our common law was inherited from England, so (inaudible) pay by the word. MR. KUNZ: I think she added it because we had that next bullet —the County has the opportunity to make that's, basically, the same but if we couch it together, "both parties are allowed," then we can get rid of that whole bullet below. She's responding to the bullet that we had, but we can just eliminate that completely and go back to CHR. CABANAS: Eliminate the complete bullet? MR. KUNZ: The bullet that says, "The County has the same opportunity" Page 28 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 CHR. CABANAS: I'm sorry, I had to MR. KUNZ: Get rid of that entire bullet and then the bullet above, just make it "Both parties are allowed to make a brief'— CHR. CHR. CABANAS: Oh, I see. Okay, that makes sense. MR. KUNZ: She's just responding because we had that bullet. So, she kind of felt the need to add that next section, but if we get rid of that bullet, then we eliminate the language and just make it simple for everybody with the bullet above, starting as "Both parties are" CHR. CABANAS: Okay, I get it now. So, then let's take that out. MS. BOND: "Both parties are allowed to make a brief opening statement, if you wish, but you're not required to do so" CHR. CABANAS: Okay, I get it. MS. BOND: Or now, do we want to add the "or defer to give their opening statement" or just leave it as you can MR. WISEMAN: Just leave it. CHR. CABANAS: Just leave it. MS. BOND: Okay. CHR. CABANAS: It gets too complicated. MS. BOND: Yeah, and the whole point of this is to make it simple, right? CHR. CABANAS: Correct. MS. BOND: Okay. CHR. CABANAS: Okay. So, can we go —okay, so we all agree to do that? MS. BOND: Yeah. CHR. CABANAS: Okay, so may I suggest we do a final review because there are certain things that I kind of, thought maybe we should to be consistent. So, let's go back to the first page, "When the Merit Appeals Board (MAB)"—and there's an extra space there before "(MAB)." Okay, now, I'm looking at it with an eagle eye, now, okay. Page 29 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 MS. BOND: Okay. I thought you said "legal" eye. CHR. CABANAS: No —"eagle" like the bird. Okay, "When the Merit Appeals Board (MAB) receives your appeal"remember, we are taking out the word "Board" then it should be "MAB will notify you, the Appellant, and the County, by" now, we're using the word "sending" —shouldn't we use the word "mailing"? MS. BOND: Or is it going by mail? CHR. CABANAS: Yes. MS. MATHEWS: Yeah, it should be because "sending" can be an email. CHR. CABANAS: Yes. So, let's be specific. So, "by mailing you a letter within seven business days. In that letter" —add comma", it will" —and then you have the following —"A." and `B." Okay, go down to the second bullet, "After the first MAB meeting, MAB's Secretary -Reporter will 'mail"' —do we need to say "both of' —"will mail you and the County a notice" MS. MATHEWS: Yes. Strike "both" out. CHR. CABANAS: So, take out "send" take out "both of" —and it should read, "will mail you and the County" Okay, go down to the next bullet, the second sentence, "An additional copy" —shouldn't we say "of each document needs to be mailed" —an additional copy of what? Or "of each document" — oh, we do say "submissions" yeah. "An additional copy of each" well, we do say "submissions" that's the second word here. Oh, and there's an extra space before "MAB," Glynis. MS. BOND: So, it says, you "must include your original and 8 copies of all documents" you don't really need the word "submission." (Inaudible.) MS. MATHEWS: And it could be "copies" if you have multiple documents. CHR. CABANAS: Well, that's why I said, "of each document" but we used "submissions." So, "an additional copy of submissions needs to be sent" —"needs to be mailed to the County's attorneys" —and throughout this whole document "Attorneys" is capital "A." "An additional copy of submissions needs to be mailed" —do we say "needs" or "must" MS. BOND: (Inaudible.) Page 30 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 CHR. CABANAS: I do, too. "An additional copy of submissions must be mailed to the County's Attorneys" —and "Attorneys" is capital "A." And then going back up to that first sentence —"All submissions go to "—there's an extra space in front of the capital "M." MS. MATHEWS: Why is "Attorney's" capitalized? CHR. CABANAS: We have it capitalized throughout the document. MS. MATHEWS: Yeah, I'm just trying to think of why (inaudible). CHR. CABANAS: Do you want to leave it as lower case? `Cause then we have to change it throughout. Okay, so leave this one as lower case, then because there are other places we got to change it. Okay. Okay, so the bullet above is capital —see the bullet above —change it to lower case. Okay, so that's the first page. And then, we're going to put a date up in the upper right-hand corner. MS. MATHEWS: Oh, good. CHR. CABANAS: We're going to put today's date. MS. MATHEWS: All the way through, right —part of the header? CHR. CABANAS: Yeah. Today is May 24 h. Yeah. We're going to use it as numbers or write "May 24 h" you'll write it out? MS. YAMADA: I'll spell it out. CHR. CABANAS: You'll spell it out. Okay, great. Okay, second page. "Introduction of you, the Appellant, MAB Members, the Deputy Attorney General" now here we say, "the County's Legal Counsel (s)" why don't we say "the County's Attorneys" MS. BOND: Big "A" or little "a." CHR. CABANAS: Little "a." MS. MATHEWS: Little "a." CHR. CABANAS: No, throughout the document, it's going to be little "a." MS. YAMADA: And the paren. (s) is okay, though, yeah (inaudible) Page 31 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 CHR. CABANAS: Yes, that's a good one. Yeah —good catch. Okay. Number fourth bullet, okay the structure of this sentence is awkward —"Determine MAB's jurisdiction over matter." Shouldn't it be, "MAB determines jurisdiction over matter." MR. KUNZ: Yeah, "over the matter." CHR. CABANAS: "over the matter""MAB determines jurisdiction over the matter." And then, that extra bullet gets deleted the space is going to move up. Okay, so, now we're on one, two, three, four the sixth bullet, where it says, "The Board" — change it to "MAB""MAB may go into executive session at any time during the hearing." Next bullet, "Both parties are allowed to make a brief opening statement" there's an extra space in front of "a" —"a brief opening statement." MS. BOND: Are we leaving, "if you wish" —or are we're going just cut it at "statement." CHR. CABANAS: No, we're going to leave it. MS. BOND: Okay. CHR. CABANAS: If everybody agrees but yeah no, we'll leave it. "Both parties are allowed to make a brief opening statement if you wish but you are not required to do so." Okay. Oh, Appellant goes first — MS. BOND: We could add that on (inaudible). CHR. CABANAS: We can. What should we say —"Appellant" MS. MATHEWS: "You" CHR CABANAS: Oh, "you" well, we're saying "both parties" MS. MATHEWS: Yeah, "You are allowed and so is the County" CHR. CABANAS: Well, we say, "Both parties are allowed to make a brief opening statement if you wish but you are not required to do so." —if you say "you" it gets a little confusing —"you" is who? MS. MATHEWS: No, but I mean, if you doI was continuing on the sentence— CHR. CABANAS: Oh. MS. MATHEWS: Basically, that you're going first and then County's going second. Page 32 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 CHR. CABANAS: Oh, I see. You want to say it that way? MS. MATHEWS: Not necessarily. I'm just saying that was what (inaudible). MS. BOND: "You, the Appellant, goes first." CHR. CABANAS: Or we could say, "The Appellant goes first followed by the County." MR. KUNZ: Yeah. MS. BOND: Okay. CHR. CABANAS: Which do you prefer? MR. KUNZ: Either or either. CHR. CABANAS: J, what would you recommend? MR. YOSHIMOTO: I don't think —I really don't think you need to because then when they come up, you're going to ask them, "Appellant, you have the burden of proof' right? CHR. CABANAS: Yes. MR. YOSHIMOTO: So, I mean CHR. CABANAS: I'll call the Appellant first. MR. YOSHIMOTO: I mean, that's what I think. It —too much of (inaudible). CHR. CABANAS: Yeah, okay. How does —how do you all feel? It's okay, I see MS. MATHEWS: No, I disagree with him. CHR. CABANAS: Okay. MS. MATHEWS: We're trying to make this really clear and so there isn't any surprise. And if it was me sitting over there and there're a bunch of attorneys and I know nothingI'm hoping they go first so I can figure out what they're doing, so I can follow it. So no, I'm just saying MR. YOSHIMOTO: Well, again, and —my concern is that we put in too much, but leave out something, right. And even though we have a disclaimer at the beginning that said this is not Page 33 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 legal advice it's just guidelinesI think the more you get into the weeds, the more you need to finish what you start. So, I don't know where the Board wants to draw the line. So, that's my concern. But then —so not only for this particular comment I mean, it's fine. I think if you say, "Appellant, you go first" —and blah, blah, blah but it becomes a script, if that's what the Board wants. But I think, personally, guidelines is good but not so rigid that you're forced to adhere to it that they say something, "Well, you violated my due process, `cause you didn't follow exactly what you said" —even though there's a disclaimer. So, I kind of —that's just my mindset. MS. BOND: Can you just add, "generally, the Appellant goes first and the County follows." MR. YOSHIMOTO: But you're correct in that the Appellant has the burden of proof, right. I'm just saying that when you look at the entire document —what are you trying to do? Are you trying to provide them with enough information so that they're competent, right. And, like Judge Wiseman said, I mean, there's a big binder (inaudible). MR. WISEMAN: We don't have to specify. I think it's adequate enough. It's "Both parties can make an opening statement" —and then, lead (inaudible). CHR. CABANAS: What if —or has it ever happened where the Appellant, the complainant, says, "Well, I don't want to go first. I want them to go first. And then I'll do mine." MR. WISEMAN: Well, that's not their prerogative. CHR. CABANAS: It's not their prerogative. MR. WISEMAN: No. We just control it. I mean, both parties may —will say, "Mr. X, do you wish to make an opening statement at this time" —and that's all. I wouldn't get into all these — MR. KUNZ: I think keeping in the theme where J is headed, we should, again, bear the responsibility of setting the guidepost. We make the statement and we announce that the Appellant goes first. It keeps the language —other language out and it —we're burdened with the responsibility of making sure that those steps are followed. CHR. CABANAS: We'll keep them on the river. So, we'll say, "Both parties are allowed to make a brief opening statement" —and the next bullet is deleted. Okay. The fifth bullet from the bottomoh, no no, that's okay, "The County attorney" is lower case —so that's okay. Okay, I think this page is good. Okay, go to the next. We're almost done. Page 34 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 The last bullet where it says, "A written decision and order ("Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law") will be mailed later to you and the County." —'will be mailed later to you and the County." Or should we just leave it like that —"and the County" —okay, "mailed later to you and the County." Okay. Are we okay with all the changes made? Anything else? MR. KUNZ: Gabe, you noted that on the —is it on the first page that you were going to include the date? CHR. CABANAS: Yeah. MR. KUNZ: The date that this is finalized and established? CHR. CABANAS: Yeah. MR. KUNZ: Is there a clause, J, that on the last page on the bottom, that we could just indicate that this was established by —and on the date on the bottom of the document instead of the top? MR. YOSHIMOTO: I think it's a great idea. CHR. CABANAS: So, we would have it on the last page —what were the verbiage be? MR. YOSHIMOTO: So, you could say either, "Effective or Revised Date CHR. CABANAS: "Effective today" MR. YOSHIMOTO: because I'm guessing you may revise this in the future with practice, right, and probably feedback. CHR. CABANAS: That we would have anything else MS. BOND: Adopted by MAB on this date— CHR. CABANAS: Or adopted or effective? "Effective May 24, 2024"—and do we say `By the Merit Appeals Board"oh, underneath. "By" —"Approved" —well, we have to vote on it. We need a motion but once we do MS. BOND: That's why I said, "Adopted by MAB." CHR. CABANAS: Yeah. MS. BOND: "on this date." Page 35 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 CHR. CABANAS: Approved? MR. KUNZ: "—and subject to revision" right. MR. YOSHIMOTO: And so, your plan is to finalize it today? CHR. CABANAS: Yes. MS. BOND: That is the plan. CHR. CABANAS: We've been working on this from what —October. MS. MATHEWS: So, when somebodyI'm just trying to review this process to make sure I'm stillso if somebody wants to file this, the first thing they're doing is going into HR and saying, "I want to file an appeal that's going to go before the Merit Appeals Board" —is that what happens? CHR. CABANAS: They may come in person (inaudible). MS. MATHEWS: Drop what off? MS. BOND: How do they get this piece of paper? MS. MATHEWS: How do they get the appeal form that's my question. MS. YAMADA: Normally, the Appellant will either mail, hand -deliver, or send it through interdepartmental mail. MS. BOND: Do they download it off the internet or do they have to go into the office and pick it up. MS. YAMADA: Both. MS. BOND: Oh, they can do either one? MS. YAMADA: Yeah. MS. BOND: Okay. That's what you were trying to ask? Okay. CHR. CABANAS: So, once an appeal is filed, irregardless of how the appeal form came in this informational sheet should be mailed to them. MS. MATHEWS: Why wouldn't the information sheet be there where they can file —where they're going to download Page 36 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 CHR. CABANAS: Attach it. MS. MATHEWS: Attach it —and are all the other forms in that same spot? Their witness list, their —any exhibits —are all of those forms in that same location? And, if not, why not. CHR. CABANAS: When you say "same location" what do you mean? MS. MATHEWS: So, if you can go to a spot on the web CHR. CABANAS: Yes. MS. MATHEWS: —and you can download your initial appeal form —are all of the other documents that they could possibly use or need there also? The exhibit list. CHR. CABANAS: No. MS. MATHEWS: Why not? CHR. CABANAS: Because they prepare their own exhibit list. MS. MATHEWS: Why don't they have some kind of standardized the copsI mean, the cops the attorneys all have boiler plate. MS. YAMADA: Excuse me, Chair, can I just answer that question. CHR. CABANAS: Yes, please Glynis MS. YAMADA: On our Department of Human Resources website, we have a bullet called "Merit Appeals Board". And if you click on that, it has the minutes, agendas, it has the appeal form —and I can put this information sheet on that same area. MS. MATHEWS: Okay. So, that appeal form, we've listed that they have exhibits, and they have witnesses, and they have all those various forms. Are the forms that the County would use, for example, because — MS. YAMADA: I think it's not within MAB's jurisdiction. I think it's a "J question"MAB's counsel. MR. YOSHIMOTO: So, I hear what you're asking, right, because if you go to the Judiciary website, you'll see court forms, right. So, our —my understanding is there's no such forms that are utilized by County attorneys to my knowledgeI don't know. I mean, right —they basically have pleadings that they draft each time for each particular case. There's no pre- printed form that the County uses to my knowledge. I could be wrong but that's to my knowledge. Page 37 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 So, you're asking if the pro se people can receive a form, like you would get, from the Judiciary website? CHR. CABANAS: Like a template. MR. WISEMAN: That's an administrative matter. CHR. CABANAS: Yeah. I think it's beyond the control of MAB. MR. WISEMAN: In view of the time we spent on discussing these and the changes made, I'm making a motion we adopt this, subject to the amendments made today. MS. BOND: I'll second that. CHR. CABANAS: Thank you. Any discussion? MS. MATHEWS: I still would like to see the forms out there. MS. BOND: Is it possible to put the forms put a link to the Judicial where they can look up any kind of form they'd like? CHR. CABANAS: I think it's more appropriate for it to be an administrative matter that we, the Board, could request of the Department of Human Resources. It's a procedure thing. It's not within MAB's jurisdiction to come up with templates. The department can come up with templates. The department came up with the appeal form. So, they could —if everyone agrees, if we have a motion to request that of the Director. And I don't know if that's micro -managing. MR. YOSHIMOTO: I would recommend the motion on the floor is to approve this form, so the discussion should be limited to this, and anything beyond this should be agendized for another discussion. MR. WISEMAN: Right. CHR. CABANAS: Oh, okay. Great —thank you —okay, so we have a motion on the floor with a secondI said any discussion —we had a little brief discussion. So, I'll start a rollcall vote with Ms. Mathews. MS. MATHEWS: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Mr. Kunz. MR. KUNZ: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Mr. Wiseman. Page 38 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 MR. WISEMAN: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Ms. Bond. MS. BOND: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Ms. Cabanas —aye. Motion carried with five ayes. MR. YOSHIMOTO: So, to clarify, Madam Chair, so the motion to approve is, as amended, with today's amendments. CHR. CABANAS: As amended, with today's changes made to the document. And so, it will reflect that this is effective the information sheet for the appeal hearing process —is effective May 24 h, 2024, by the Merit Appeals Board. MR. YOSHIMOTO: So, the other issue can be discussed at a later time, I think. MS. MATHEWS: And so, do I need to make a request that that be agendized. I request that the issue of forms on a Merit Appeals Hearing Process be agendized. MS. BOND: So, do you need a second on that one? MR. WISEMAN: No. MS. BOND: Okay. CHR. CABANAS: Okay, let's go back to the agenda. MR. WISEMAN: Well, it's just that it's a request made for the agenda —when the agenda comes out —the proposed agenda, anyone can make recommendations to add whatever —and that's what Gay did. MS. BOND: She asked to put on the next agenda, the concept of adding forms. MR. WISEMAN: Yeah. MS. BOND: Yeah. CHR. CABANAS: Templates to the appeal forms. SPEAKERS: (Inaudible.) CHR. CABANAS: Okay, so are we going to agendize that for the next meeting? Page 39 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 MR. YOSHIMOTO: That will be discussed. Because we shouldn't talk about it now because it's not on the agenda. How's that? CHR. CABANAS: Okay. Director's Report (Item 8) MAB Monthly Divisional Activity Report: May 2024; And Update Regarding The Length Of Time To Hire New Employees As Requested By The Merit Appeals Board (Previously taken out of order.) Announcements (Item 9) CHR. CABANAS: So, we are now back on "Announcements." Any announcements? MR. WISEMAN: Yes, I have an announcement. And as you all know, I submitted a resignation to be effective on May 30'h—and just in my soon to be former colleagues —and there've been some urging for me to stay on this morning. And I'm going to take that under consideration. In the event, I need to discuss with my wife. But, in the event that I cannot reconsider or it's not feasible for me to do so —and I wish you all the very best in the challenging endeavors of the Merit Appeals Board that will be confronted with them that they will confront. And I wish to also offer my praise and compliments to the staff, this Board, in particularGlynis, I don't know how she does it —and J, who's our attorney but remember, there's only two lawyer jokes, the rest are all true. Thank you —and it's been a pleasure working with you all. And I will reconsider that request. MR. KUNZ: And, I guess, then, you can keep that lei, `cause we're not certain yet. CHR. CABANAS: And we do have a letter going out to you, David, but if you're reconsidering we won't mail it. MR. WISEMAN: Thank you. CHR. CABANAS: But thank you, David, for your time with the Board. You've brought a legal perspective, which has helped us —and we really appreciate having you. So, yeah, please reconsider. MR. WISEMAN: Thank you. CHR. CABANAS: And so, any other announcements, Board Members? Page 40 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 MS. BOND: I don't know if this is pertinent but in my other hat as Head of Citizen Corps Counsel, we're helping Civil Defense with the Emergency Preparedness Fair. I have posters, if you want to take them so that you can put them up. But, anyway, it's coming up on the 1st of June. MR. WISEMAN: And what is it? MS. BOND: It's an Emergency Preparedness Fair. It's trying to get people aware of all the disasters and how to prepare for them. CHR. CABANAS: Oh, that's coming up June I" MS. BOND: June lst MS. MATHEWS: And where is this? MS. BOND: Civic. At the Civic. CHR. CABANAS: Oh, terrific. MS. MATHEWS: And is there a comparable one happening in Kona? MS. BOND: No, but there will be one in Waimea in September. MS. MATHEWS: Thank you. CHR. CABANAS: Thank you, Suzi, for —yes, thank you, Suzi, I'll take a flyer. Okay, thank you. And then, we are going MR. WISEMAN: I'd like one, too. CHR. CABANAS: Oh, okay, very good. Anyone else for a flier? MR. WISEMAN: Yeah, I'd like one. MS. MATHEWS: Ms. Bond, isn't that downloadable somewhere? MS. BOND: Yeah, (inaudible). MS. MATHEWS: I've seen it. MS. BOND: (Inaudible.) MS. MATHEWS: No, I was just thinking of, sort of, doing that whole sending it out —each person sends it out to other people kind of thing. Page 41 Merit Appeals Board May 24, 2024 MS. BOND: Well, you can do that, too, yeah —it is on the County website. MS. MATHEWS: I've seen it somewhere. CHR. CABANAS: Or you could even take a snapshot on your phone. MS. BOND: (Inaudible.) CHR. CABANAS: And send it to MS. BOND: I'm having a huge fight with them about the technology. So, yeah. CHR. CABANAS: Okay, so any other announcements? Thank you, David, and Suzi Bond. Anyone else? Charlie? Gay? No announcements? Okay, very good. Schedule Next Meeting Date (Item 10) The Merit Appeals Board will convene its next meeting on Tuesday, June 25, 2024, at 10:00 a.m. at the Hilo Council Chambers, Hawaii County Building, 25 Aupuni Street, First Floor, Room 1401, Hilo, HI 96720 CHR. CABANAS: So, scheduling the next meeting. We will convene the Merit Appeals Board will convene its next meeting on Tuesday, June 25, 2024, at 10 a.m. at the Hilo, Council Chambers of the Hawaii County Building, at 25 Aupuni Street, First Floor, Room 1401, in Hilo, Hawaii. Adiournment (Item 11) CHR. CABANAS: May I have an adjournment motion. MS. MATHEWS: So moved. MR. KUNZ: Second. CHR. CABANAS: Thank you. Any discussion? If not, I'll start a rollcall vote with Ms. Mathews. MS. MATHEWS: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Mr. Kunz. MR. KUNZ: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Mr. Wiseman. Page 42 Merit Appeals Board May 24,2024 MR. WISEMAN: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Ms. Bond. MS. BOND: Aye. CHR. CABANAS: Ms. Cabanas—aye. Four ayes—motion carried to adjourn today—five ayes—for a motion to adjourn today's meeting at 12:14 p.m. Thank you, everyone. Respectfully submitted, 6&_ Glynis amad , Secretary-Reporter APPROVED: eutA u.tr(.w 111 . &h a-na ir— Gabriella M. Cabanas, Chair Merit Appeals Board Page 43