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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2017-01-17 Game Management Advisory Commission Minutes Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 Game Management Advisory Commission County of Hawaii Minutes Meeting Date: Monday, January 17, 2017 Time: 6:30 p.m. Place: Hawaii County Building – Council Chambers I. CALL TO ORDER: Thomas Lodge, Chairman, called the meeting to order at 6:31pm. II. ROLL CALL: Per Donna Urban-Higuchi: Willie-Joe Camara, District 1 – here Dwayne D. “Ike” Yoshina, District 2 – here District 3 - Vacant Naniloa Poglen, District 4 - here Thomas H. Lodge, District 5 - here Kenneth “Kalani” DeCoito, District 6 – here District 7 - Vacant Teresa Nakama, District 8 – here Jonathan Bertsch, District 9 – here Quorum established ALSO PRESENT: Belinda Castillo-Hall, Corporation Counsel Donna Urban-Higuchi, Executive Assistant, Mayor’s Office GUESTS: Jim Keefe – On-Target Range Construction Specialists Tom Campbell, Sgt. Major Pohakuloa Training Area James Cogswell – DOFAW Wildlife Program Specialist Joey Mello – DOFAW Big Island Wildlife Biologist Representatives from the Hawaii Police Department Richard Hoeflinger – Past President of On-Target 1 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 III. ANNOUNCEMENTS and INTRODUCTIONS: TL: Chairman Thomas Lodge introduced and welcomed presenters for this evening’s meeting: Jim Keefe, On Target Range Construction Specialists; Tom Campbell, Sgt. Major Pohakuloa Training Area; James Cogswell, Joey Mello, DOFAW Big Island Wildlife Biologist; Lt. Thomas Shopay and Officer Reynolds Kahalewai, Hawaii Police Department and Richard Hoeflinger, Past President On-Target. These individuals will help us to start exploring for a shooting range IV. Chairman Thomas Lodge moved to approve the minutes as submitted. Mr.Willie-Joe Camara moved to amend the minutes to reflect the following: on page 30, first name should be spelled Lena. There was no opposition to the amendment. Chairman Thomas Lodge called a vote for the main motion to approve the amended minutes. Dwayne “Ike” Yoshina moved to adopt as amended. Willie-Joe Camera seconded the motion. Motion carried. V Chairman Thomas Lodge moved to approve the budget report from last year. Naniloa Pogline seconded. Chairman Thomas Lodge called a vote for the budget report to be adopted. Motion carried. VI. PUBLIC TESTIMONY on AGENDA ITEMS: Chairman Thomas Lodge explained the procedure to the audience to follow the business order on the agenda. Should there be any testimonies and/or questions on the development of the range, is it okay for those people to ask questions to the presenters. BCH: Mr. Chair, for those who are going to participate in the public testimony if they can approach – we have a microphone – if you can ask questions – everything is recorded as part of our procedure and if you can speak into the microphone when addressing the presenters and if the presenters can speak into the microphone as well when answering. Thank you. TL: OK. If no questions then I’d like to go ahead and move forward. Richard Hoeflinger, Past President of On-Targeting. They have been involved in working with the state for roughly ten years, I believe in 2007. He’s got a good background on range developments and we asked him if he would give us some thoughts on the need for a range here – a county range or a facility for us to use. 2 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 VII. DISCUSSION The Hawai’i County Game Management Commission is exploring the necessity, feasibility, requirements, and opportunities for a county built and operated shooting facility. In our initial probe into this effort: a. Richard Hoeflinger, Past President and Director of On-Target in the need for a shooting facility. RH: OK. I’ll try to give you just a few minutes of background. My journey began fifteen years ago. I was involved with the state ten years ago with the Puuwaawaa ahupuaa Advisory Council. Our job as charter members was to do all the land plan for the public lands at Puuwaawaa. Miles Nakahara, who is retired from DLNR and I worked very hard to make sure that one of the objectives of the land management plan was to make sure there was going to be a shooting range as part of it – that is in the land plans. As far as I’ve been able to determine that’s probably the first time that I’ve ever seen it put down on a piece of paper but that was the start of the journey that I went on over this past fifteen years. In 2004, we formed a citizens’ working group – people from the business community and from various shooting clubs. These people that would have an interest in shooting and shooting sports and we took it upon ourselves the job of laying out – if we had a comprehensive shooting facility – what would it look like – what would we need to satisfy all the needs of the people on this island. From that, we laid it out and we determined that we needed. We need a comprehensive facility – do everything, everybody wanted – about one square mile of real estate and that’s how this all started, at least started for me. In 2010 that working group was incorporated as a 501 c 3 non-profit which it remains today – the charter of the group is to promote safe shooting sports in Hawaii. To address the issue that Mr. Lodge asked me to talk about tonight, which is a Hawaii Island shooting range – why is it needed. Here’s some facts – over a quarter million fire arms are registered in Hawaii County. That’s 1.3 guns for each resident. An average of 6,000 additional firearms are acquired by Hawaii County residents every year. Target shooting is the fastest growing participative sport in America – more people shoot targets than play soccer, baseball or ski. And target shooting is a recognized Olympic Sport. Ninety percent of the firearms legally owned by Hawaii County residents are rifles and pistols – ten percent are shot guns. Rifle and pistol shooting is prohibited on virtually all public lands, um, that’s Chapter 104 in the Hawaii Administrative Rules for Forest Reserves. A hunting license is not a permit for target shooting. Many of the popular firearms are prohibited for hunting. There’s a couple of them: 22, 9mm, a 45 – are not to be used. There’s other restrictions – 3 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 you need to have a firearm that’s appropriate for the game that’s in season at that particular area. If you want to shoot under the guidelines of being a hunter. There is no legal publically accessible facility available for shooting rifles and pistols period. The current public shooting opportunity is Parks & Recreation Department is the only facility on the island – that’s the Hilo Skeet and Trap Range. It accommodates shot gun shooting sports only. Skeet, trap, some 5-station shoots and which, sort of, some sporty play stuff that various clubs put on and about 4,000 people visit the county facility annually. I see Gwen and Jerry are here – she’s a range attendant at the skeet and trap range – if I got that number wrong I’m sure she’ll correct me on it. That’s what it used to be, anyway. The operations is in East Hawaii so operation is limited and shooting activities are weather dependent. I know there’s one target shooting competition that’s held – that used to be held every year. It is almost like a four day event and almost every time they held it it got rained – you shot in the rain – not a lot of fun. Firearms education and training – a properly designed and managed shooting facility is required to support safe firearms education and training programs. On-Target Inc. currently conducts NRA certified basic shot gun shooting course through the county recreation program. We’ve been doing that for the past two years. The course provides students hands on training opportunity at Hilo Trap and Skeet Range is in compliance with HRS 134-… that’s safe firearms training if you want to buy a hand gun. In the past two years, 17 classes were conducted in safe firearms use – I see a few of our students here today – if you want to know what it’s about you can see them – by NRA certified volunteer instructions employing live- fire training at the Hilo Skeet Trap Range. Today 148 community members have been trained in safe and responsible firearms use. There’s the demographics so – a third of them were juniors, as young as ten, a quarter of them were seniors – I think the eldest one was 79 – a third were female and a half of all the people who take the classes are parents taking their children through, which is really encouraging for us. Additionally, range safety officer training was proved to the county recreation staff members, ah, we have provided public rifle and pistol education training when we can get a legal and secure facility to do it and that’s the hang-up. We’ve done it in the forest reserves under permits in the past, but it’s not an easy thing to do. Low cost volunteer instructed rifle and pistol education training programs could be provided to accommodate public demand if an appropriate shooting facility were routinely available for the required fire instruction and training. A range is an economic resource – properly designed, adequately equipped and effectively managed – shooting facility in this environment – this vacation rich environment that we have here in Hawaii with its amenable year round climate would attract competitive shooters from all over the world – not just the US – all over the world. We know this for a fact. Resulting tourism will generate revenue for both the 4 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 state and local economies. There’s a couple of examples: in Ohio every year Camp Peery National Matches bring 20 million dollars to the local Ohio community – 20 million. Illinois – the scholastic placed target program national championships over three years brought in 15 million th dollars. The SCTP program, by the way, which is a school age – 5 grade through college, ah, shot gun shooting program: skeet, trap, sporting plays – we just got it established in Hawaii – we have the first registered team at the Hilo Skeet and Trap Range – we think when we get this going we’re gonna have – it’s gonna go gang busters throughout the state – at least that’s what we’re hoping. To summarize – a properly developed, suitably managed and publically accessible shooting facility is needed that will accommodate the islands’ community’s legitimate, recreational shooting needs and provide the means for delivery of instruction in safe firearms operation and responsible use. With visionary design and operations, such a facility can simultaneously generate revenue for the local economy. TL: Thank you. Does anybody have any questions for Richard Hoeflinger? None. All right. NP: Thank you Richard – that was excellent. DY: Can we ask for a written copy of this report and put it on our record? BCH: It becomes part of our records. If anybody asks for it from the public they can get a copy of it. TL: OK-does everyone hear that. Anybody from the public who would also like to have access to that report once we get it would also be available to you just ask. Will Lt. Shopay and Sgt. Reynold Kahalewai come up? The police departments has needs for a shooting facility for many years and we’d like to hear from them as to what they require as part of the shooting facilities. I appreciate you folks helping us out this evening with this. b. Representative of Hawai’i County Police Department and their need for an adequate shooting facility. LTS: I’m Lt. Shopay and I’m representing the police department along with Sgt. Kahalewai. I manage currently our department’s tactical team and we do a lot of the training for our officers and annual certifications for firearms. Our biggest challenge is range availability. We have an indoor range at our Hilo facility which is dated – has been updated but can only house so many officers at a time. We have a challenging situation where our personnel from the west side of the island and our recruits have to travel to a private range which is quite a distance away incurring travel time and again, we’re limited to the availability of that rang since it’s not a county owned facility. So that’s the challenges we have for our department and 5 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 our personnel to maintain our qualifications, continue our practices, and to have something for our scheduling that we actually have control over versus trying to kind of jockey for positions which aren’t always the most beneficial to our scheduling and our manpower needs. TL: You were looking also to have a range on the east side available to you folks, is that correct? LTS: And in all honesty the Big Island is a big island. We have – that is our challenge is or personnel from Area 2 and Area 1 – which is east side and the west side - having a facility either side would be a benefit for us. Ideally it would be nice for the county, the public and the police department to have that eventually – to have facilities west and east Hawaii – but at this point we’ll be more than happy with whatever we can take and work with that. TL: I have roster – how many officers is your total from the police department? LTS: There’s approximately 450. TL: You mentioned that each one of them needs to be qualified every year. LTS: Correct. TL: OK. When you talk about a range for the police department, what type of facility works for you, you stated that you use a private range on the other side of the island – what does that range actually look like? LTS: So the range itself is basically a cinder cone or cinder pit – we’re in the center of that and we have to bring each time our materials to set up the targets that are various distances and measure it off. Other organizations also use the facility, so there is some materials there – but most of the time we have to bring all of our own equipment out to the facility – set up targets – measure off distances and then conduct the training as a static range. TL: Is that going up? LTS: Yes TL: Yeah and that’s adequate for you? I mean other than having a facility where you can store stuff and so forth and lights and electricity and whatnot. LTS: It works for now. Ideally, yes, there are other things we would like to incorporate additionally as we go on that’s something that we have worked 6 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 with On-Target when they were looking at their range – some rifle ranges – a little bit longer distances versus the standard 25-yard pistol range, and then we’d have the ability to do other type of qualifications with different type of firearms for the officers. TL: What sort of distances are you looking at? LTS: So for a rifle range a decent distance would be about 100 yards. Primarily for police work - a 100 yard range would be a sufficient range for a patrol officer. TL: Weather is an issue – I know for anybody that shoots and one of the issues is weather. Weather on the west side is usually pretty good but on the east side a cover would help. Do you have anything you’d like to add to that as far as your recruit training. LTS: Yes, and primarily why the recruit training is done off-site is the indoor range doesn’t have enough stalls to accommodate a full recruit class. Rather than doing a few here and then having other ones do something else, the firearms is an important aspect of the training so they like to do it as a whole unit. The only range, right now, that can actually facilitate the full recruit size, recruit class is that outdoor range out of the Hilo district. TL: If a range was able to be developed, you know, say ideally on either side of the island - when you talk about participating with the public – is that a conflict when you’re doing your stuff? LTS: I wouldn’t say per se a conflict but it would just be more a schedule where we can coordinate – where we have access where it wouldn’t be interfering with anything that the public had already had scheduled and, since we’ve been scheduling with range anyway, I don’t think it would be anything we’d have a real big challenge with. TL: How many days does it take you to go through your 415 – to do the qualifications? LTS: So the qualifications are set-up by the firearms instructors in the district so it’s not through one central officer location – so each district has a firearms instructors and they’ll have to coordinate with that range if they’re out of the Hilo district to get that done. If they’re in Hilo district, they can use the indoor range, which is much faster because everyone is on-site. It varies – there’s no set time when they do – it just depends on the range availability for the other outer districts. TL: My question is, the police department need a range on a relatively regular basis right? 7 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 LTS: Correct. RK: Yes. TL: OK. RK: Yeah, as far as a recruit class goes we’ve been having a recruit class pretty much every calendar year and the size of the class varies from 12 to 30 that really being the largest during recent years. As far as range days for the recruits, we have taken them out to the range but maybe around a dozen each times. We do a lot of training during the recruit phase in addition to needing the range for annual qualifications. TL: All right, you’ve given me a pretty good background... Nani? NP: So you’re saying all you really have is a cinder cone... TL: Yeah. LTS: Yes. NP: And you’re the police department. We need you. LTS: Thank you. NP: What is up with that? LTS: It’s a challenge we’re adaptable – that’s in our nature but it is a challenge – given that it is our job, it is all we have to work with. There is also that public aspect of it where there really isn’t anything that people have access to so it’s double edged sword there and I think moving forward with this type of project would have a lot of wide-reaching benefits. NP: And who’s responsible for the lead? LTS: Well – that is an issue that has to be taken up with the private partner as we work through that process because that is a lead abatement issue... NP: Yeah, it can’t be your responsibility... LTS: So, so that is an additional concern. NP: Yeah, seriously... 8 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 TL: No, they did a good job. When we went up there we had to do a lot of that too. What obstacles have you run into in the past – like getting a range – or have you run into anything yet? LTS: Primarily, these gentlemen here can kinda step up and explain it – they’ve been working on it much, much longer than I have. I see there are challenges they can better attest to. Overcoming those boundaries from public organizations and primarily it’s not an understanding of the firearms community and what it really is so I think that educational aspect to the broad community would be a big benefit in getting the support for this type of activity. Unless... TL: We are hoping that our commission can develop a conversation with County Council and Mayor. The Mayor actually was very supportive of a range for the police department and when we talked to him in December of last year. We were encouraged by his willingness to start a discussion on this. Anybody else? Anybody from the community here have any questions? GG: Nice crowd over there. Thank you Mr. Chairman Tom Lodge. It’s more of a commentary than anything else to support my esteemed colleagues that presented – I’m Glennon Gingo – the current president of On-Target Inc. and I’m the younger guy coming into this – I’m fifty-five this year so that kind of gives you a little bit of a background, and how we need to get more young people involved in this process. I do want to reiterate the things that Mr. Hoeflinger said and there are two really important things I need to know – one of them transcends really all the rhetoric. It is illegal to discharge a firearm of any type on any property unless you’re engaged in activities of hunting – and that hunting has to be licensed – and you have to be using the proper caliber when you’re hunting so that brings up a lot of issues because we got a lot of people out there breaking the law to exercise their right to use a firearm and from an educational standpoint the thing that concerns me most is that we’ve got a lot of opportunities to give education in firearms but we’re never going to get to that point without a range. I appreciate Lt. Shopay’s candid remarks about having a cinder cone – but that’s very short of what a police range should be. I also disagree with hundred yard being a limit for a professional in shooting of the rifle and I can tell you right now most of my students could probably shoot better than half the department – so we’ll go on to competition someday and we’ll see how that goes when we build a range and we’ll see how that racks up against you guys there to call yourselves shooters. But, I’d love to have that competition to show you how the general public can actually shoot with – given the right circumstances. So, we do have to 9 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 have this – we have a lot of illegal activity going on with firearms. People don’t buy firearms not to shoot them – so they’re eventually going to discharge a firearms somewhere and probably going to be illegal doing it and that concerns me. It also concerns me that right now your only time to really have firearm education would be in the Hunter Safety Program and if you look at the Hunter Safety Program you don’t even handle a firearm in that program – so where do you really get the education on using a firearm and that’s really where I’d like to leave my commentary. Thank you so much. TL: I appreciate your comments. JW: Thank you for letting us speak. I’m John Wong and I’m a longtime Hilo resident and a lifetime shooter and hunter and I’d just like to add that the Big Island has a huge community of hunters and shooters. We have families of hunters that go many generations deep and the tradition of hunting will always be passed to the next generation. So having a complete shooting facility in Hilo has always been on our wish list. We all need a place to shoot our guns safely and to teach our keiki how to shoot. Whenever I’m at the Skeet and Trap Range, I’m grateful and thankful that we have a first class facility to use and you could see that the county is very proud of this range, especially when they host local and national tournaments that draw hunters and shooters to Hilo from all over the world. Now imagine this – what if you added a pistol and rifle range to that facility? Amen. And make a complete shooting facility, you know, a complete shooting complex. I know all of us here would like to see that happen someday and a complete shooting complex would serve us well today and for many generations to come and that’s all I have to say. TL: Everybody here I think agrees with you. OK. Anybody else want to add to John’s commentary here? A comment was made by a person from Laupahoehoe who did not state his name clearly. He wants to get some more information about the process. He is 73 years old and he would like to see the shooting range built. He asked, will the shooting range be funded and operated by the County of Hawaii? And, if so, as to when will the board approach the Mayor and Council? What will happen next? TL: That is good question and that is the purpose of our exploration here. Several of our speakers are gonna be addressing some of that. We need the shooting range and we want to find out what do we need to know in order to take this information to the County Council and to the Mayor and to try and get buy-in from them for a range. It’s a conversation that’s long overdue and we think that we need to have a public conversation with the county and we are looking at a county facility, but, you know, we will be 10 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 talking a little bit more about it tonight – where would the land come from? We have some people from DLNR here – I’d like to address them on a couple of questions. If there’s money available, where would that be coming from? There’s a lot of questions that we want to start developing towards that very end that you’re talking about. Hopefully, we can do this within the next three or four months - have a package to take to the County Council. That’s our initial goal anyway. CP: My name’s Karl Carlysle, I’m from Hilo. I work at the Pohakuloa Training Area and I’m also a former employee of White Shark Arms. I’m here seeing a lot of people that have been associated with that – our shooters, our instructors – we’ve all promoted safety – I wanted to get the comments in while I got a chance. I see police officers here who I know – need a facility. At the facility I worked at, we’ve had Police Officers, we’ve had Air Marshals and people from the public and what I’m hoping is that this range that you’re looking to provide - one is – provide it expediently and two, that it’s open to everybody. In the small range that we had – we were able to do anything from having a pistol league to either running close quarters training and I’ve even have a CEO come all the way here to Hilo from Australia for training. I’d like to see that and I think you got a big representation here... TL: Absolutely. Thank you. Do we have anyone else then who would like to share either thoughts – yes, sir? NS: Hello. Hi, Nicholas Sanborn, I’m fourth or fifth generation here in Hilo. A lot of you probably knew my dad – my dad was Moki – he was a range instructor, he was part of the gun club, he was an active member in the gun scene here in Hilo. A few points that I kind of missed or talking about was, we all live in Hawaii and we’re still part of the United States and the political climate is something that I think a lot of us are a little nervous about – possibly apprehensive about – and being able to have a place where we can all go and learn how to properly handle a firearm because there is nowhere to go. I’ve taken all courses. But a lot of the people that have a gun for home defense have not even shot the weapon – don’t know how to use it in a properly controlled environment where they may end up killing a loved one or hurting themselves instead of stopping a bad guy, and the police department having to train, two and half hours away from where they live and where they actually are employed is just a little unfair. As you know, at the end of the day who absorbs that cost for travel, for pay, for all the other things that is required of them to host the recruitment class and to keep up their own training. The gentleman in Kona said that, he’s willing to put money on that, he can outshoot some of the recruits – that should never be the case – whether it’s true or not, you know, they are part of a system to protect all of us. There needs to be more than just a shotgun range. The statistics show – ten percent is 11 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 shotguns – ninety percent of the weapons cannot be discharge legally and the fact that a lot of places now offer these kinds of things – like in Vegas – they’re big revenue earners – they offer employment to not only people that upkeep the facility. We need people to have the yard cut, maintenance crews, and all the employment you’re gonna give to people that have to actually build the structure and keep it running, keep it updated and to have just one – like the officer said – is a little unfair to the guys on the west side – so then we’re doubling revenue – we’re doubling employment – we’re doubling, you know, spreading the wealth to everybody – it’s something that has been definitely – like the gentleman earlier said – long overdue – and I hope that we all have the chance to see it sooner rather than later. Thank you. TL: Amen on that. Yes, sir? WW: My name is Wymond Wilds and I’m with the KMR Military Reservation and Rifle and Pistol Team. We’ve had use of the KMR ranges for almost twenty years now. We even had at our disposal even during 9/11 then they got a new commander in and he thought we shouldn’t be utilizing the ranges. They’ve got all the ranges out here from 25 meters to 600. And if you go into the airport that final curve – you look to your right – that’s the 600 range that they bulldozed and everything out there. And we had full use of that at any time – just go to the main office on the military facility – pick up the key and we could go out on the 25, the 200, or the 600 and do our shooting. They had the range flags up. The ranges were all built – they were right there at your disposal. They have a couple of restrooms in there now. We’ve got a complete shooting facility right here in Hilo. Now when I first went down there – we had the International Black Powder Competition – down there at the Range. They had people with guns that were four hundred years old competing against each other and they brought in their relatives, their friends and everything from New Zealand, England, Germany – and, I mean, like at this competition and it was a really very important thing and what I’m trying to point out is I talked to the commander of KMR and he said they relinquished their lease on the property so you’ve got at your disposal right now four complete ranges all set up with overhead cover just all you have to do is pursue acquisition. TL: Who is the commander there? WW: It used to be \[unclear\]. TN: This is West Hawaii. Can I please have your name again, sir? WW: The name is Wyman Wilds – I’m from Pahoa Town up there with the hippies. 12 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 TN: Thank you. TL: Do you know who owns that property? WW: I went in to see about acquiring the range and then utilizing it and they said that it is leasehold and it belongs to Hawaiian Homelands. TL: Hawaiian Homelands. OK. Thank you. WW: \[Not speaking in mic\] and they even have storage rooms and bathrooms. TL: OK. Thank you. SA: Good evening, my name is Steven Arush. I have a question for the two police officers. In your fight to acquire a range, Have you gone to the Police Commission? And if you have, What was their response to your request? LTS: The Police Commission would not really have a bearing on us acquiring a range – they offer a different administrative rule or organization. So for us to acquire land or facilities, it’s through a county process like this versus through the Police Commission. They could be a voice for us but they’re not one who would acquire the actual property or the facilities for us. SA: OK. In that sense, Did the department talk to the commission to see if the commission would back up what you guys actually need? – not want – but need? Has anybody approached the commission yet? LTS: They – as the commission changes – yes, the commission is aware of the need for a shooting facility and what processes they have undertaken. I can’t speak for because I’m not a member of the commission, but they are aware of the need for the facility, um, for a shooting facility. RH: We were invited to brief the police commission on two occasions. I remember one – the new Chief was present. He was very supportive of the activities that were going on. Tom Shopay was a member of On- Target meetings to make sure we addressed the issues that he’s in – that the Police Department is interested but the Police Commission was aware on two occasions about two to three years ago, I believe, we briefed ‘em. Does that help? TL: Richard can you response? RH: You’re only 70 what? 13 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 The person who answered did not state his name but he mentioned that is 73 years old. RH: Well, I’m 82. So I hope I’ll be there too... TL: A follow-up question – it’s the gentleman who mentioned the range at the military facility – do I understand it correctly that they military – the army was leasing that property from Hawaiian Homelands and now the military decided not to re-do the lease? WW: Yes... TL: And so that range is sitting there... WW: Four ranges – vacant? \[Not speaking in mic\] Owned by an organization which previously was in the business of leasing it to someone. How do we get the county to approach Hawaiian Homelands and see about leasing those ranges? \[Not speaking in mic\] TL: Now that we have this information, we will move forward and see what we can do with that. We have James Cogswell here – if we could maybe be able to share some of that helpful information with us as well. TN: Excuse me this is West Hawaii – could you please state your name before you speak, please. Who was the speaker? Tom we need to know who was the speaker? TL: That was Ray Gagner TN: Mahalo. TL: Anybody else have any questions for our gentlemen up front here – I’d like to thank you all. A person made a comment but did not state his name: He mentioned, “I just have one to agree with and clarify what Glennon had mentioned for a law enforcement range. I’d say for a law enforcement rifle range 100 yards is sufficient but for a professional or a hunting range that’s not the distances. For the legal area, we would operate in 100 yards is sufficient for us but longer is definitely more beneficial.” 14 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 TL: OK. You are not going to turn it down, right? I agree. We have an assortment of information. I think, a lot of people and possibly the county may not be aware of a lot of this and so we’re hoping to put this together and take it to them. Thank you very much. Sgt. Major Tom Campbell of Pohakuloa Training Facility on public opportunities at Pohakuloa. TL: Sgt. Major Tom Campbell is here to share information from Pohakuloa. STC: Thomas Campbell, the PTA Command Sgt. Major. Let me start off with the why? A lot of people don’t know that last year the PT hunting program at PTA was under fire and almost got shut down for two reasons: one was we weren’t following the federal guidelines – rules on access control – the other one was safety. And, so, that’s why the sportsman program started this last season here that was our vehicle to build everybody – to allow access – unescorted access to federal lands. The other one on the safety piece is right now we, we got by with requiring the Hunter Safety Course just as the State does but we’re still lacking on the safety firearms and archery equipment without any availability and practicing with those weapons. So when I got to the island fifteen months ago, I brought some of my guns with me and then I got here and found out there’s nowhere to shoot to include PTA. – I’m an avid shooter and avid hunter. I like how in the heck does this happen. I can’t even shoot on my own land, or not my land, but where I work at and I’m army. So, we started looking into trying to establish a shooting facility but being me and the commander are the only two green suits up there and then we’ve also got the National Guard and the Reserve – the National Guard, or, I’m sorry, the Coast Guard – the Reverse National Guard and the Air Guard on the island and some recruiters – was it really doesn’t make sense to build a range or make the facility available just for that population, so, we’ve looked at broadening this out for the community – the drawback in it, though, goes back to that – access issue and the availability of the ranges. Of course, the readiness of the army and marine, or our military units is priority up at PTA. So it would basically limit the ranges to basically weekends or weeks that there are no units up there training. So I did a lot of leg work over the last year and relied on On-Target a lot for and picked their brains for information. What made it even trickier was in 2016, the Garrison funds were cut almost by 60%. Was hoping 2017 would look better and they were cut again, so, basically I’ve been trying to figure out how to do this out of hide, with no cost to the government and try to make this a self-policing facility. Basically, what we were looking at are three ranges: an archery range, a rifle-pistol range and a shotgun range. On the shotguns is a long pull of course because it requires additional equipment. What we’re looking at PTA is a Sporting Clay Range. We’ve got the Skeet and Trap range there 15 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 in Hilo – what we’re lacking on the island is a Sporting Clay Range and that’s where the bird hunters can really hone their skills or realistic shoot – shotgun shooting. The rifle-pistol range, though, we are not rifle hunting in PTA right now – I’m trying to fix that but just the availability to bail the shoot and then an archery range is no cost. I’ve got everything to set up an archery range and, right now I’m fighting land use for PTA falls under the U.S. Army Hawaii back on Oahu. And the problem I’ve faced and the reason this has taken over a year to get there is a lot of the decision makers look at the Big Island through Oahu eyes and don’t understand as we all in this room know – there’s a drastic difference in not just the land but also the community as well. I was almost at the finish line and then we had a change of commands and turnover of leadership so now I’m back to trying to express the need, ah, for the – to justify the land use of, but, once I tied it to safety – that rings everybody’s bell. If we’re gonna be slinging arrows and shot and bullets around PTA we want to have the availability to do it safely and also for the rifle shooters. There’s a difference in zero- in at sea level and zero-in at 6,200 feet in elevation. That’s why we were looking at – in particular the rifle-pistol range just so they can at zero elevation with like conditions. I’m really hoping that I’ll have the Archery Range up and going here in the next month. Then right behind that is hopefully we get approval for the rifle-pistol range for the land use is if it doesn’t go through the area that I had drawn out. I’ve got a packet for you Mr. Chairman that I’ll leave with you that’s a draft of our memorandum of instructions. It kind of lays out how the ranges would run and the locations, but don’t pay attention to the locations that I’ve got on there ‘cause it very well may change. If we don’t get the land use, then I’m gonna pursue using an existing range and make that a rifle-pistol range. The drawback to that’s is gonna limit the use – the availability of it even more – that it’ll be limited to basically weekends that there are not units up there training at PTA. I’ve got to keep the cost down and I did this in my last duty station at Fort Hustace, Virginia. We started a hunting program – it couldn’t get off the ground because we didn’t have a range – a public range available at the Hampton, Newport News, Virginia area. Now we took an existing range and made it available for the public and we ran it through our program. That way everybody’s vetted, everybody’s got to shoe the proof of registrations and what have you. It’s also the availability of it - so people don’t drive all the way to PTA to find out they can’t shoot. We are trying to make this thing a self-policing event is that we’re looking at trying to establish a gun and hunt club and through the club would be the ownership of the range or the self-policing of the range. The dudes would go into the maintenance of it and the way I’ve got it set-up is that everybody that would come out to the range has to be range certified through army garrison up there at PTA and that would qualify ‘em to be able to be a range safety officer on an army range. If I’m the first one to show up to the range – I’m the RSO for that range and I’m responsible for the safety of that range. Somebody else comes on after me – I’m still the 16 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 RSO and it’s my duty to make sure they sign in with the range control and they have the right credentials. If I need to leave, then I would sign the range packet over to somebody else on the range. They would become the RSO, so it would be a self-running, self-policing range. We did it in Virginia – a lot of people had – some reservations on safety out there being a self-run range, it’s been in operation for five years now with no incidents out there whatsoever. We’ve been running range, the same kind of range in Alaska at Fort Richardson and that has been going twenty-five years with no incidents. TL: Gun clubs have been running for decades on their own. STC: Right. TL: Are you trying to get an archery range going in a month? STC: I’m hoping. I’m not putting any promises. TL: No, but that’s your target... STC: I mean being that there’s not lead – not a worry or lead abatement. You pretty much can put the archery range any where out there that I want as long as I have the permission to use the land and I’ve got everything out there to set-up a field range that would go from 10 out to 80 yards, as well as, a two-hundred yard 3-D target – at last, I don’t have the targets yet, and we’re working and trying to purchase through an RMWR. I’ve got everything for the field range to go in – ends up we’re using this kind of a will add to our new story is our recycle – we have a very in depth recycling program up there where we – fifty to sixty percent of our refuse gets diverted out of the land – from the landfill. STC: So we have big cardboard bails that are the perfect size for field and archery ranges and we’re gonna use those as our ranges till they get weathered and shot and then we’ll recycle that cardboard. TL: Did I hear you correctly that you’re working on trying to get approval for the rifle-pistol range within a month as well? STC: I can’t get – I can’t put a date on that one because nothing moves fast in the army, unfortunately. I won’t say I’m back at square one but I’m towing the line, so I’ve got to go back – it goes back to the educating the need and selling the need to build a recreational range at PT, so, I really can’t put a finger on the rifle-pistol. TL: OK. Does anybody here have any questions for the Sgt. Major? I’m encourage, you’re actually looking to participate with the community. I 17 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 think it’s a win-win – I think it’s a big win for Pohakuloa in getting community support. STC: It is. I mean, right now – I’ll be honest with you, Mr. Chairman, our number one community relations right now is hunting and, and I’ve sold this from the very beginning – if we were able to open up shooting that would become our number one community relations - opportunity. TL: Absolutely, everybody in this room agrees with you on that. Excellent, and I do appreciate you taking the time to – I hope you join us more frequently. PTA has been a big part of our community activities here for as long as I’ve been in – related to hunting and for years and years, they’ve had a wonderful opportunity to share with the people in the community here and you have a lot of aloha from the people in this room and elsewhere. STC: Yes, sir... TL: And, I’m encouraged. STC: Both me and the current commander up there got scared last year and thought we was gonna lose it – if we get the wheels in place, it doesn’t matter who the commander or major is up there. It will live on and that’s what we want to do before our ten years are up. TL: Wow. A person made a comment but did not provide name, I’d just like to thank you for that, um, again and also, um, personally the I-Sportsman for me – I don’t for everybody but it’s, it’s, I like it – it’s working good for me, um, you know, there’s always a learning curve...” STC: Right, right... A.person made a comment and did not state their name... “John and, and Brian have been doing a good job, I think, up there and, you know, thank you for your efforts to keep the hunting going.” STC: It’s our pleasure... c. Jim O’Keefe of On-Target will be presenting the nuts and bolts of range development 18 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 JO: Let me tell you a little bit about my background –I’m the former president, two-time president – Big Island Gun Club – I’m an NRA certified chief range safety officer – I am an NRA certified training counselor – I teach firearms instructors how to teach safety and skill and pistol-rifle-shotgun range safety, firearms safety and a couple of others. I joined the effort for the Puuanahulu Range back in, I think it was 2004-2005 – Dick can correct me if I got a year off, but, as part of the advisory group at the time – was out for little while and came back in 2011 as part of On-Target, Inc. Three of the four members of On-Target, who have been to the NRA’s Range Development and Operations Conference on the mainland – it’s a four-day affair - are any present tonight: Glennon Gingo in Kona, Dick Hoeflinger and myself. We have a fourth who’s not with us. In addition, Mr. Hoeflinger has – is one of – one or one of two NRA certified range technical training advisors. When Coco Head had a problem with bullets escaping the facility and landing on neighbor’s yards and windows, he was the one that got the call to get over there and diagnose and help them correct that problem. So and that sort of brings up some of the challenges we have in building, developing and maintaining a range so that it stay in operation for many years to come... Let me explain the challenges of developing a new shooting range by telling a little bit of background in what we’re going through with the Puuanahulu facility and contrary to the wishes of some of the people that have stood up to oppose it. That is not dead – it’s stalled right now and we need some pressure to push that forward and in, invested in this whole process is about a million dollars in Pittman-Robertson funds, state funding and in-kind contributions over these years so it’s not an insignificant expense to develop a new facility - part of that money was putting together consultants to develop environmental assessment, an EA for that, which included surveying the land for water, yeah, water, you know, how much water does it get – where does the water go – hydrology – weather: what’s the weather like – is it gonna be a good facility? Cultural resources – are there cultural sights, you know, there or nearby that could be at-risk from something like this going on. Are there fire hazards? A couple of big ones: safety – and I mentioned the Coco Head incident there – safety is paramount with any shooting range – so you need a big enough footprint to safely capture every projectile that leaves every firearm – every single one. No exceptions and should one still manage to escape – you need sufficient area behind that to make sure that it lands safely, if not, on your property, which is still a very hazardous thing to have. One of the biggest things that challenges shooting ranges across the country today is the issue of lead and lead if not managed is considered a toxic substance and subject to stringent, strict and punitive EPA regulation both federal and state agencies do that. Many shooting range has been in operation for decades if not for over 100 years – have been shut down because they did not have the lead management plan – 19 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 so building a range or operating one – that has to be part of the process. As it turns out, was and continues to be our biggest issue at Puuanahulu and we have done three sounds studies and we’re satisfied – On-Target and the shooting community is pretty satisfied that we can abate the sound to the extent that we can be great neighbors – that we can be in that community without bothering anybody at the resorts – that the amount of traffic, visitors, occasional shooters that come over from Oahu or people from East Hawaii that go over there to spend a weekend would definitely benefit that community greatly, so... So in developing any kind of shooting facility – those are the kinds of things that you have to take a look at zoning and land use – we were fortunate because we found – out of looking at was it 9 sites? Was it nine sites we looked at? JO: Yeah, I think, there were nine sites we looked at – all over the island, you know, we looked for years, we had the criteria the ones I laid out we have to meet the safety being able to deal with lead and all those things and all of and out of those the only site that even came close was that an the DLNR, which has been partner with us from the beginning had to say – well, we have hunting area right next to the county landfill at Puuanahulu that we could use for that – that it’s properly zone for it – it’s legal to have firearms there so – so that’s – those are some of the considerations that go into, you know, where to build a range. TL: Well, when you were looking at these other sites what range distance were you looking at – that 1,000 yards or 600 yards? JO: A thousand yards - if we could have everything that would be great, you know, but we could live with less if we had a lot of long range shooters – that is their bread and butter. We wouldn’t turn down a good opportunity for a range if we could do it at 200 or 600 yards – those are suitable. If we get ninety percent, it’s good – if we get 100% - I’m even happier. I don’t know how many, how many golf courses do we have on this island? NP: Yeah... JO: Eighteen, nineteen golf courses... You know, I live by the bottle motto – that a golf course is a terrible waste of a good rifle range. NP: Yeah... JO: So... Well, that’s my only standup comedy routine, OK. Some of the things and the issues that keep coming back that challenge ranges – indoor ranges have their own challenges, air handling sounds – neighbors are part of that – outdoor ranges, primarily it’s lead – that’s, that’s the biggest issue that we have there. As an example for the shotgun field that we’re planning for the Puuanahulu facility – we had designed it so that all of the 20 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 shotgun sports would be arranged around a rather large circle aimed towards the center of that so that central area could be flattened, could be covered to a depth of several feet with fill that would both allow us to treat it chemically to make sure it’s not acidic and would leech lead into the water table and also to recover the lead after a period of shooting because lead while it’s a toxic hazard if it’s not managed – it’s actually an asset if it is. There are companies that pay to recover lead – they will come into your facility, they’ll scoop and sift the, ah, materials and reclaim the lead and I’ve seen some ranges that have gotten checks of $50,000 dollars for allowing that company in to reclaim the lead so that’s a big part of planning any range – we have to have that in place. Now, I will say that there are a number of resources available for that. As I mentioned – the range development operations conference, NRA puts that on two times a year – it hasn’t come to Hawaii, yet, it’s been in San Diego. The one th coming up March 11 thru 13 is in Indianapolis – I went to the one in Cincinnati, I think Don Watson, retired Captain from the Waimea Police Department – one of our board members and our current secretary – he went to the one in Boston, for which I’m eternally jealous, you know. It’s all that good chowder and so they have that available and it’s a great investment because you have as many as two hundred people range operators, military police, people that want to start a shooting range, indoor range, outdoor range – we have experts from every field in the shooting sports, sound engineers, environmental engineers, safety officers, police trainers, you name it. They’re there and it’s four intensive days of not only the course work itself, but, when it’s done and you’re there in the hotel with all the other participants it doesn’t stop for hours, so that’s an excellent resource. Having gone through that and passed that course you end up with one of the NRAs heaviest manuals, which is the NRA Range Source book. TL: I have one question for you, you know, we’re talking about having the county involve themselves in, in developing a range... JO: Yes... TL: So this range conference that you went to, Is this something that whoever, whatever department is being allocated or defined in the county’s needs for this – is that something that they should plan on going to as well? JO: I would say this strongly, that anybody who would consider building a range without having at least the key personnel go through that is taking an awful risk. We’ve had two indoor shooting ranges here that, unfortunately, had not availed themselves of that opportunity and some of the things that happened with those facilities could have been avoided had they participated in it before investing the money. I met a number of people at these conferences that were going, “Oh, goodness. I really 21 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 haven’t done everything I needed to – I better get on it.” Um, so, yes, a very wise investment. I think it’s just under $600.00 to go to the conference plus whatever transportation per diem – that kind of thing. And I will mention also, that our group, On-Target, Inc. – the NRA is very supportive of our efforts here and we were able to attend this. With NRA grant money, so it absorbed most of the cost of us travelling to those various places and attending these conferences and those are the things that are available to us and to county personnel – there were some DLNR engineers that also went to that. TL: If the county moved towards a range like that would the NRA help us get them sent up there as another incentive. JO: Oh, I’m sure we could encourage them. They are very supportive of public shooting ranges. Private – you’ll pay your own way if you’re developing something – an indoor shooting range, you know, for a private owner, they’re very supportive but, you know, you’ll pay your own tickets and such, but, yeah, for public shooting range that’s a good use of their range grant funds. JB: We have a question in Kona. GG: Chairman Lodge, Glennon Gingo again from On-Target, Inc. Thank you Jim. I sounded earlier that I like challenges – competitive nature shooting is really what I enjoy – but what I’d like to say in line with what Jim has said about the kinds of programs that we offer in education with the bottom line safety and design is that as the On-Target president what I’d like to do is pledge along with the commitment that Colonel Campbell has that if Colonel Campbell is successful in setting up this rifle-pistol along with training according to federal standards for RSO, I pledge here for the record that we will fund thirty spots for NRA-RSO training on full scholarships, thank you. TL: Ah, excellent, I appreciate that. TL: Ah, you know, you’re talking about a footprint and like DLNR said we got this hunting area. The length and breadth and the distance, but, a back- stop like in Hakalau – in your opinion, was Hakalau a good range? JO: It was well used and I spent many Saturday and Sunday up there competing...in a variety of shooting sports. It has challenges – it has running water nearby and if you have running water you’re challenges with lead management just go up 100 fold, so, we’ve got the Hakalau stream that’s nearby and there are a couple of little tributaries that feed into that... TL: I was wondering if I wanted to cross that bridge or not... 22 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 JO: Yes, you better cross that one, so, physically, if it had been, because the shooting levels were fine – there was a 75-yard pistol range on the lower section and then there was a raised part of the hill where the rifle line was and the target back-stop was at the same altitude 200 yards away... So it turned out – it was manageable – it was fifty acres that that property encompassed – probably five of them in use for the range and the rest of it was forced – it back-stopped, if you will, beyond the, the dirt and rock berms – we had forty or so acres of trees to catch anything that might escape or most of it – there were some hazards, there were some roads that ran along the eastern boundary of the property straight uphill so we had to be careful to, ah, watch and listen for traffic that may come down the road, which was typically one of our members who couldn’t make it up the bad lower road, so, not ideal but it was useful... JO: Yes safety – like I said, all it takes is one incident and you no longer have a range... TL: Right... JO: So, it wasn’t ideal. TL: So that the topography of that area – in your opinion – something like that would be a satisfactory barring the running water part? JO: If you can get two-hundred yards and be shooting on a level in, the scale of what the needs are I would say that the most used range that we could develop right now would be a 25-yard pistol range because you have, you know, a number of instructors I suspect we have more than a few NRA pistol instructors that’s most common training discipline the DNRA teaches and that’s the one that’s required for any new purchaser of a hand gun in the State of Hawaii has to have gone through a NRA certified safety course and that being the most likely one – that’s what most people are trained for, so, a 25-yard pistol would be very good to have – the police could use that for a lot of their qualifications – next would be a longer combination pistol-rifle range – a hundred yards – that would be for small bore for pistol – maybe large enough to accommodate, you know, some action events and these are things that can be developed one after the other – not necessarily all at once and then third would be a longer range rifle range – two hundred or three hundred yards – six hundred would be wonderful – a thousand is when they can break out the big guns and go for distance, so, but, in the hierarchy of things pistol is certainly the most used with rifle close behind that, so... I’m not leaving shotgun sports, but, you know, we have, we do have the trap and skeet range and if we can do something with the sporting clays, ah, that would be wonderful. 23 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 TL: The guy that complains up at Hakalau – how many yards away was he? JO: I’ll tell you a little story and this gets back to and one of the other factors is community acceptance. That’s one of the challenges we still have at Puuanahulu, ah, when we were there at Hakalau – about two years before C. Brewer sold the 500 and something acres to one developer – they had sold a portion – a 50-acre parcel to a person from California who contacted us – or whose realtor actually contacted us and said, we’re considering buying this property for somebody that raises horses out there and they want to know if it’s gonna be a problem – so when do you folks shoot – how loud is it – and so we told him well we’re gonna have a high power rifle match on the following Sundays so that’s where we have the garands and the, ah, AR-15s and some of the louder rifles that we own out there so, you know, come on up and listen, so – and we didn’t hear anything more – until we found out later on that the party had bought the property and no sooner had the ink dried – the mayor, the county council, the state health department, the police department, the prosecutor’s office, the state – every state politician – was getting letters from this buyer saying – when are you going to shut this range down – it’s a hazard, it’s noisy, it’s scaring my horses – so, of course, C. Brewer was a very good landlord – they said, no, the gun club’s a very good tenant – they’re staying. The buyer was very persistent and it never stopped, and in fact – it was probably a mile and half away from our site – another neighbor – another person bought a property up above that one about, oh, maybe, a half mile up – who’s an avid shooter – a friend of mine from Oahu and every time he goes to shoot on his property the police get the call and of course, he calls the police ahead of time and says I’m going to be practicing and so neighbors can be a real challenge. Noise issues have not abated it and there was no – in defense – there was no noise abatement at either of these sites so, ah, sound, if not dealt with – and there are lots of good strategies and materials you can use to significantly reduce the noise emanating from a range. There are outdoor ranges that operate in the city of San Diego that were limited to, you know, Saturdays only. These are police and sheriff training ranges because of noise complaints – when they did the sound abatement – they were able to operate every day and even into the evening hours without, without major complaints. TL: What do you use for sound abatement? JO: Well, there’s a number of things you can do – the design of the facility itself, you know, what you have – back walls, ah, there are sound deadening materials you can use – one of them is a specific type of concrete panel that is very good at absorbing the real high shock of firearms discharge and it’s a – it’ll result in a 15 DB or better lowering of 24 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 the noise floor. Our study showed that – I’ll bring Puuanahulu into it – the third sound study we did – they actually mapped the island area and did contours, you know, the topography – how sound would propagate down there. We did sound tests, we brought up Richard and I had our guns up there, ah, they, they, they measured us at 180, 360, 90, 270 angles to get different sound levels. They also spent a week or two – I don’t remember exactly – down in the quietest areas of the Waikoloa Village – some of the court yards that are sheltered from all the highway noise – from all the everything else that – if you’re gonna hear something that’s where, that’s where it would stand out the most and they did they, they recorded sound down there over a period of time and then they mapped it, modeled it, so they could show that with only one exception our sound levels from the rifle fire and from the shotgun were below the ambient noise level at those quietest areas. The one exception was when we had the shotguns aimed towards – or would have had those shotguns aimed towards the resort in that circle that we talked about earlier? That would have carried enough sound forward that they would be able to hear that so – and all we would have to do to resolve that is turn the direction of fire 180 degrees around. TL: Shooting into – is that a fair enough sound abatement type and all that for the arrangement that they had there? JO: It helped attenuate it and foliage around there, certainly, helped as well – it’s not as good as people might think and obviously that neighbor heard it enough and I’m not saying that it was loud where she heard it – but it was, it was discernable and that’s all it took to generate a phone call to the authorities. TL: One of the other questions that we’ve had and one of the reasons why we’ve asked James Cogswell up here is if there are areas, I mean, if, topographically what would be the ideal? JO: Flat is ideal for managing your land – you want a flat area where, you know, all the shot fall, you know, all your bullets are expended into the ground, sandy, alkaline base soil material is best for that and it just simplifies the process of recovering the lead. TL: A canyon or something like that would be? JO: What’s that? TL: A canyon or something like that wouldn’t... JO: If the flow is flat and you had proper berms – now one of the things that a lot ranges have gone to and you can look this up on line is they’ve gone to Geo Sel – sidewalls and backstops – berms – and these are fabric 25 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 containers that they fill with whatever your soil is, you know, that same sandy type soil filler is great – you can stack them more easily and then as the ones in front get a little bit shot up you just pull that – that one bag out and you put a fresh one in there – you put the others aside for your lead recovery efforts and, and so you can build ‘em to – standard height for a backstop now is minimum 20 feet with a lip – an eyebrow – over it to keep bullets from escaping. They recommend 25 – so it’s quite a bit larger than it used to be. WC: OK. We’re kind of a county deal you know, understanding that pistol – that a 25-yard pistol range would be good place to start. I’d love to have a 1,000 yard range – don’t get me wrong... JO: Yes. WC: The current county facility here in Hilo – the shotgun range... JO: Yes... WC: I don’t know what their footprint is, you know, how big would it be – is that an area that may be - a pistol range could be built at – you think or? JO: Well... WC: Or is there not enough property? JO: Well, safety is the issue there - because behind it you have the landfill... WC: Uh-huh... JO: So you have workers there and that’s pretty much seven days a week. There’s somewhat of a base, I guess it would be to the east there’s somewhat of a base facility where there’s personnel there – behind the shotgun range, there’s a quarry road and it’s an active quarry still and if you go beyond that there’s an airport, so you know – it can’t be a blue sky range that’s for sure. WC: That’s gonna be the same concern with KMR. JO: Right. WC: Cause there’s a shopping center \[unclear\]... JO: And if you look at it, you know... WC: Everything around it… 26 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 JO: A 22 caliber round fired out of a rifle... WC: Right... JO: A 22 caliber can travel over a mile and maybe as much as two from a 30 odd six that’s three miles... WC: Right... JO: And if it’s launched at the wrong angle and shooters have, especially new shooters have been known to have issues with the mussel pointed in the correct – the proper direction and the finger on the trigger when it goes bang, you need to make sure that none of that leaves the range. WC: We have to go to the county council and then eventually to the mayor and plead our case... JO: Right... WC: I’m just thinking being that the shotgun range is already there, I’m sure there’s different requirements...for the hand gun or pistol range compared with a shotgun range. Two hundred yard range had overhead cover I’ve seen another out there well I haven’t been back in there recently, but they took 40 foot containers and they cut – roll up doors for ‘em and they put dirt and stuff in there and they used that as a pistol range – just a simple thing and you can get a – pick up a container for $1,000 bucks. It’s real, real cheap – real easy – 25 yards – no problem. JO: There are strategies you can use but the risk becomes a little greater and the expense of the baffles – the overhead baffles – they’re 4 x 8 plywood panels suspended on supports. They’re three or four inches thick and they’re filled with aggregate that are designed to slow a bullet that is launched upwards – doesn’t stop it but it keeps it from travelling great distances so you have to look at your down range fan to make sure that that’s still a safe enough to stop that before it impacts somebody at the race track or the shopping center. WC: My question would be on the east side, where might there be a property? JO: That’s been the biggest challenge for us to find it – I won’t say that there isn’t one – but we haven’t found the ideal one. We are looking to accommodate all the shooting sports at once. 27 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 WC: Right... JO: And perhaps if we take another look with a more limited instruction, we might be able to see some place that could work in East Hawaii there’s cinder pits out in Puna. Bryson’s Cinder – one of the national sports writers used that one for years for testing firearms and writing his articles about them – so there are other possibilities, but, you know, again we haven’t looked specifically at that – but that would be a good charge to take on and see... TL: The average guy here wants to be able to go out, shoot, test their guns, take their kids out shooting with a 22. or whatever the need or the desire. The need isn’t necessarily for long range or whatever. We briefly touched on 100 yards to 200 yards. Whatever it might take to get started so that people have a place to go shooting- I think is the foundation of why we’re here. If we can do something better that would be great. Puuanahulu has all of the ingredients of what would be the ideal. It may not serve the police department well on this side. If there’s other areas that are here and for us to have to drive there some people here might drive all the way over there. JO: I’ve heard that many times. I’m in favor of all of the above – I don’t think that any one excludes the other and it may be when we met with Sgt. Major Campbell at PTA we looked – took a look at one of the areas he was proposing – pistol-rifle combination range – and we could get out to 600 yards or beyond... Someone made a comment and did not state his name. He mentioned, “one area was out to a 1,000…” JO: Yeah, one was a six-by – we could put steel beyond that – steel targets. They would be in the impact zone – we couldn’t go out there and hang paper but we could get out to 1,000 yards there so if we have long-range rifle and thousand yard rifle out there – that would relieve some of the needs we have and we could have more than one facility in the county. We’ve had good hopes that the state – the DLNR – would continue to push the Puuanahulu facility – they’ve shown – well it’s not high on their priorities, I guess, is what I would say because they have such a broad set of responsibilities – everything from the ocean, hunting – you name it – so we’re just a small part of that and they get some political pressure against it. It’s easier to go on to other things and perhaps we’ll see a change in that at some point. Maybe with the county’s support... TL: Aren’t county politics different than state politics? 28 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 JO: Well, certainly, the only public ranges in the state are run by counties. Ukumehame over in Maui and the Coco Head shooting complex on Oahu are County run facilities and they accommodate quite a number of the shooting sports respectively. TL: Our ideal would be to see if there’s some compatible here. Since all the work has pretty much been done for Puuanahulu – there’s very little else to do – and EIS maybe the next step. JO: Right. And I should mention that not just the funding for the range development operations conference – that’s a good investment no matter what. The state gets a proportion of Pittman-Robertson funding – for those that aren’t familiar with it – there’s a tax every time you buy ammunition, rifle, archery equipment – I think even some boating things – there’s a tax on it – it’s called the Pittman-Robertson – it goes into the Pittman-Robertson Fund – it’s apportioned to the States based on population and being small as we are we get the – there’s a floor below which you can’t fall and that money comes back. It is available for the state. The county used that recently to rebuild some of the facilities at the shotgun range I’m not sure how much? Six-hundred thousand dollars in PR funding to do that. So those are the kinds of things that are available. It paid for the hunter education facility in Waimea. That is the money that built the building where they teach hunter education without any firearms training. TL: So, in any of the areas that you haven’t looked for anything that might represent a smaller footprint when you look at these areas – were any of them county properties that you looked at at all? RH: The county property up there up in Hamakua about twenty years ago... And I don’t remember why it was discarded but it was... JO: Really the shotgun facility is the only one that I remember off hand and for the reason I stated – it didn’t look like a promising avenue and we were told at the time that Hawaiian Homes had plans for some of that area behind there - not too distant future. KD: I get one question all on this – what is the chances of the military working with the county and the state? I mean, what he’s saying that he had some things that he’s looked at. And you stay crossing your t’s and dotting your i’s on safety. The county’s already taking care Mauna Kea State Park – so what is the chances of the county with the police department and everyone else that they help 29 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 participate with the PTA and it’s like one neutral area, I mean, I just throwing that at you... JO: Right. KD: To help him assist his situation. He’s looking at the whole thousand yards that people need. Who is going to maintain? What’s the cost from them, they get the land – federal – state approvals, permits – and then the county just helps facilitate with the Pittman and Robertson – military don’t have to fund anything but just oversee the situation on safety. No sense ask small bits and pieces of gun range here – pistol range here – go for the big one. What they going say? No? They already taking care of Mauna Kea State Park – county. JO: There is an unofficial site-in area behind Mauna Kea State Park that folks have used and I was approached by the previous base commander Lt. Col. Richardson, I think it was? And he had proposed setting aside a section over on the Mauna Kea side of the highway, but as soon as we took a look at that – that’s the palila habitats so Sgt. Major Campbell is looking at is – it’s Mauna Loa flow – it’s a’a as far as the eye can see, so it’s certainly usable. SMC: There’s a model out there that I just recently found out is Fort Belvoir back on the mainland and they’ve run exact same issue we’re facing right here now – is in the county wasn’t anywhere for recreational shooting, however, there is a hunting program – they got the same beat down that we got of - how do you ensure safety? People know what they’re doing as they’re hunting. So they were able to go through legal or through the judge advocate and figure out how to do a joint venue on a range – so the county paid for or facilitated the building of the range – the army or the federal – through the federal lands was able to designate that land use as a recreational range – so it’s on Fort Belvoir but you don’t have to access it through Fort Belvoir proper – there’s an access point from a county road – so the county runs it, there’s a joint venue between the army and the county to build the ranges and so that’s a model that I’m looking into to see exactly how we could get at that and do a joint venue on this. SMC: Yeah, so Schofield had a rod and gun club and they had a recreational range and it ended up that the usage of it dropped and the – it was costing the army money and that was one of things that was cut through the MW – the moral welfare and recreation program because as we – they cut funds – anything that has the MWR stamp on it – if it’s not in the black it gets cut. And so if there’s – if it’s not making money to put back into the MWR it’s getting cut. 30 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 DY: There’s a model. And, and instead of going through MWR, to set up a different model... SMC: Yes, the packet that I gave to the Chairman is modeled on the two venues I did this with – both Alaska and Virginia and the existing rod and gun club at Schofield – so it’s kind of a model of all three of those venues to make it fit the Big Island what we’re looking for. DY: One of the bottlenecks that I saw with the Pohakuloa situation, because we were invited to set up a club but there was no follow-up and we were told it has to be from our side but it would be much more welcoming if the army would say, hey, um, on this Saturday, we want to meet with you guys and so, you know, you have a meeting – an organizing meeting – so that people would go up there. I’ve heard this from a number of sources now, that we kinda just waited, but the army seemed to want us to organized everything but we had no real understanding of all of that. SMC: Yes, and so here’s where we’re at with, with the gun – I’m calling it the PTA Gun Hunt Club cause I don’t have a better name for it right now last year, or I guess it was discussed before I came on board I don’t know what happened then through the PTA Advisory Council, which meets up there every – once a month and that’s kind of people in the community that come up – that’s on the advisory council – and the way that’s built up and we got it covers hunting, recreation, roads and it’s kind of – keep the community – what’s the concerns of the community and PTA and, and make sure that we all get along continuously and keep the relationships built – so I brought up the Gun Hunt Club there and Ryan Komatsu – I don’t want to use his name in vain – but he’s part of that – the PTA Advisory Council – he’s on our hunting committee and so me and him had talked about it – I dug up through what needs to be done, I mean, it’s got to be a non-profit organization – there’s stuff that the army has to do to have a non-profit organization available to use army facilities and land, um, and so where I’ve got the club tied to right now is actually this archery range and the reason I’m doing that is – I wanted to have something tangible to offer the membership – and so if you join the club and you’ve got access to something – but, I mean, the hunting, we already – the hunting’s already happening whether you’re in the club or not – and so, when we get the archery range up I’m gonna really hit the Gun and Hunt Club again hard and get this thing set-up and it needs to be a joint venue – not a community only event, ah, thing, now because I’m in uniform I can’t sit as a – the chairman of it – or the president or vice- president – I can be on a member – as a board member – I just can’t be the one in charge of it cause of a conflict of interest through the Judge Advocate \[unclear\]. Yes, sir? SMC: Yes, sir. I’ll give you one of my cards and you can contact me, sir. 31 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 JO: That’s a good place to meet. One of things when we looked at the range with Command Sgt. Major was a minimum of materials would be needed to set-up, um, a firing point – firing points for the pistol-rifle line – basically some lumber for a cover, maybe some sheet metal for a roof, materials for a bench or seating and I’m told that the engineers that come over from Oahu – the army engineers and some of the other groups – they have need of things to do – so operate heavy machinery, pound nails, or whatever it is – that we could probably enlist some of them as well as many of the volunteers who would certainly show up to help that happen, so... I don’t want to put Tom on the spot here... SMC: Well, I can continue on with that. You’re exactly right - the material is the long pull – the labor piece – the engineers – both the reserve engineer unit here in, at KMR, as well as the engineering units back on Schofield is – one of the challenges they’ve got stick time and they’re looking for projects to build – to maintain their proficiency on their equipment somewhat have you so projects like this fits right into their training objective – it’s free labor, I mean, that’s where the have – PTA gets most of their projects done up there is through what we call troop labor and that’s where I really want to attack this club again is to use that to get the material to build a building – what we need to get ‘em started – that’s actually – the archery range stuff – is troop labor that got all that put together for us – if we can get the lumber we can get volunteer help to do the labor.?? TL: I have a quick question, you said that you were looking towards a program that would run into perpetuity, in other words it’s an outside of a change of command, if something like that was to be addressed or allowed up here at PTA – what would be the opportunity for say a gun club or, even the county or a combination of gun club? The county may participate in building a bathroom. Their investment would be sort of assured if that would be the long term. That could be like a long-term lease, you know, thirty, forty, fifty years. SMC: Right – it would go into a user-agreement. It would be a written agreement between the army with the county that this land will be used or designated recreational range with – and the county has use rights. But once we get this into writing and get both sides lawyers to agree on it is – that’s really what’s gonna be the venue for this thing. A person made a comment but did not state his name. ?: Yeah, I’m hearing all this that you got to build all this stuff and yet, you’ve got it right there in Hilo. You’ve got everything there. You’ve got 32 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 bathrooms, you’ve got rooms, you’ve got gun ranges, you’ve got overhead cover – you got target sheds. You don’t have to fabricate anything – all you have to do is make an agreement with Hawaiian Homelands... TL: A lot easier said than done... R: My name’s Robert, they’re just re-doing the drag strip down there – put a lot of money into it. Hawaiian Homelands goes from the airport clear down to King’s Landing. There’s a lot of property down there. You can certainly make an agreement to get a lease from those people to go ahead and use the existing range that is there – you’d save a lot of money. DY: My comment would be this – we would certainly check that before we did anything but I think there are some questions about the land and the use of the land. We’ve already had the councilperson from that area raise issues about a composting facility on that land – so, I think we have to ask and see what’s happening and by the way they’ve not released the lease for Kipuka Ainahou, right? So, you know, they’re looking at their land or their capital assets and, and we’d have to go in there and ask, OK. KD: You know, I gotta voice this stuff, I mean, if you ever worked with Hawaiian Homes you get so many litigations that it’s not going be funny, I mean, gentlemen – people – you guys gotta see what’s going on in it – you get one military person that is giving facts about years out – accomplishments up on the mainland – you get one guy here tellin’ he’s with – he’s dotting his i’s and crossing his t’s – you got one guy offering scholarships – get together – you get the police department – you get one centered place – he’s just asking for material – county – now is the time for get up your guys council members – get ‘em in action – get ‘em approved. Did we – we already get county workers maintaining the Mauna Kea State Park – what is just one two-mile away for go service up the bathrooms or what have you – that the military just gonna be open arms – you say what? And we going just do this – this guy can facilitate – you can facilitate – I mean, it’s unbelievable. Hawaiian Homes – no sense – we cannot even put Hawaiians on the land – you think you guys go get that? I just telling the truth, guys. I deal with that more than any of you guys. I see one win-win situation, I mean, if you guys – nobody can see that I don’t know what to say. Federal like give the land with certain. If we gotta hit up our county council – if I gotta fly Honolulu, which I every time do with legislation, right now coming up this session – and hit up the senators for - eh, come on here – look at this. All we like is funding. And why not make it one of the best facilities possible. \[Technical difficulty – line dropped\] 33 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 VIII. NEW BUSINESS IX. COMMITTEE REPORTS X. COMMISSIONERS REPORTS BY DISTRICT TL: I want to thank all of you, actually, and all of you that were here. I think that having the support of the community where they can see that there is a huge interest and a necessity, ah, I appreciate the Lt. Reynolds, ah, Reynolds, Sgt. Reynolds, ah, Kahalewai, here, um, I think they’re key also to the necessity of having a gun range here... XI. NEXT MEETING DATE th TL: Just to let you know, February 13 is our next meeting. Ah, we got cut off and that automatically eliminates our meeting – so it’s fairly – the timing was just about right – so I want to thank all of you for actually coming out and helping us with his. I appreciate it, you know, we’d like to have your continued support on this because we go forward, um, we’re – our hope is to get in front of the county council. XII. ADJOURNMENT DY: I move to have the meeting adjourned. ?: Seconded. TL: All right meeting is adjourned. Oh! We’re back – we’re gone... WC: Standby everybody – they’re back –they’re back – hang on. TN: We’re back Tom... Is everybody leaving – we see everybody leaving. BHC: Yeah, sorry, we, um, Donna... BHC: We cancelled the meeting because we lost audio connection pursuant to the rules. TL: Can we get you up here for a minute... TN: We’re back on... TL: I have two questions for you. 34 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 WC: Stand by, stand by Tom... TN: Tom, I have a question... TL: Yes? TN: Does GMAC attend those monthly advisory meetings at Pohakuloa? TL: Ah, no we don’t - not officially. TN: How do we get notice that their meeting is going on and if one of us could attend their meeting. TL: You can join their thing... TN: Yeah, I volunteered last year to be their secretary for that hunting group but nobody got word back to me... SMC: Ma’am this is Sgt. Major Campbell, I don’t know who it was that you contacted but I’m trying to think how I can get my email to you, do you have the phone number to the PTA? TN: Yeah. SMC: OK. Just give us a call up there and we’ll work it out and then we’ve got a – OK... TL: Yeah, Teresa, we’ll get the information to you. TN: OK, Tom – get the information to me and I’d be more than happy to attend their monthly advisory meeting. TL: Thank you, Teresa... TN: You’re welcome... TL: Again, thank you sir. Do we have any new business? Several things, as we move along here there may be other questions for you – when we originally talked about this gun range thing about, you know, state property – that, you know, might be available and that’s why I was trying to get him to talk a little bit about the topography of things we might see up there is what would it take for the county to come to the state with a request for a particular piece of property that you folks might agree – might meet the criteria that would come out of a survey of available areas that would meet – and there’s a lot of them, running water, cultural resources, fire hazards, safety and all these other things, but if we had a piece of property that met 35 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 the criteria that would be simple to work with – what process would the county have to go to to come to the state... d. Joey Mello – James Cogswell of DOFAW as to Hawai’i State participation in range development JC: I’m Jim Cogswell – I work for DLNR Division of Forestry and Wildlife, Wildlife Program Manager, I believe how you would approach that is you’d first start with the branch DOCARE branch and get them on board with what you’re looking for and where you’re at and then it would depend on what the, the land was designated for – whether it’s forest reserve or, or something else and if it’s our DLNR land or if it’s another state entity’s property, um, but I would say your best bet and your best advocates would be the branch Steve and Joey and the gang down there, um, unfortunately, Joey’s not here tonight to answer more specifically, but I know that they are very supportive of, ah, a range, ah the development of a range for the Big Island and, in fact, on all islands – we’re aiming for that, so... So I’m sure you could get the support – just get them – the parcels that you’re looking at – that you’re interested in – they can help you do the review process – make sure that the, ah, that we get focused on the process and getting that done. TL: We had talked to the Governor about two parcels of property here and do you know where that? My second question is Hawaiian Homelands. I think he adequately addressed the issues that we have there, but, if something like KMR, do you see that as being a potentially viable approach off the top of your head? JC: I can’t speak for the Department of Hawaiian Homelands – I know that we’ve – they’ve suspended the lease – our lease for hunting access – to several parcels up here and we haven’t been able to get back on to that parcel even though we’ve tried. WC: I don’t know if I can ask this or not because it is a question pertaining to old business it’s in the minutes there. It’s pertaining to the online Hunter Education course - you had said the last meeting that’s it’s available online so, um, went back – had a nephew go ahead and start the process – took it online only to find out after he has completed that – that there’s no class here, so he’s got to go to Oahu if he wants to take a class. JC: For the follow-up class for that, yes. WC: So when will that be available on the Big Island? I’m angry because that was frustrating. JC: Yeah, I’ll make a note of that... 36 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 WC: Because I had went back and I told these kids, hey, look, it’s here online – you guys can get it started because any more – these kids have basketball, football, soccer, Boy Scouts, 4-H – they’re – when I was growing up my life was not structured - I didn’t have a schedule like these kids have nowadays. My son is already grown up and, and gone but – anyone with more than one child – I don’t know how they do it – because it’s crazy. This kid went out – he did the whole deal. got it passed – only to be disappointed because now he can – there’s no course offered here. Needless to say - his mom was not real happy either, so anyway, that’s my question – hopefully, we can get that addressed sooner than later... JC: Yeah, OK... I will bring that to Andrew and see what the deal is there... DY: I just wanted to add that I asked for a hard copy of that, you know, the training manual. I was surprise- I got it. You can thank whoever is responsible for that for the quick turnaround. JC: That’s right, yeah, the Hunter-Ed class training is actually managed through the DOCARE office – not the DOFAW, but we work closely with them so I can definitely talk with Andrew and figure out – ask him that question about live training here, yeah... WC: OK. Thank you. JC: No problem. TL: OK. I do appreciate and on the gun range issue – so that – you folks are the ones that are generally running that side of it, right? JC: In the past – actually no – it’s been through the Hunter’s Education. Yeah, we’re in the mix but we’re still collaborating with Hunter-Ed too because they’re ultimately responsible for the training that would go on there... th TL: OK. I do appreciate. Our next meeting is gonna be on the 13 of February... KD: You know, I get one question for these guy. What would it take for these guys to collaborate with you on the hunter’s education program? Meaning, I see a lot of experts here – a lot of instructors here – what if like say me and my boys and I get my grandson like join their club and go with the military and go up their range and stuff and get training by these people – could that be recognized as, as hunter’s education program because what I see with these guys is – hunter’s education going be more for birds and 37 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 stuff and I understand that – so, the whole aspect of it all is gun safety and archery and stuff but it’s more for birds and stuff like I said – but how could that be put together in one program that could kind of rotate with the state getting involved? JC: Yeah... KD: If the state DOFAW or whoever can get involved with this hunter’s education program –they can do the whole archery certifications or training and firearms training. It all works hand-in-hand. It’s the home movie – the videos that we watch from day one – the shoot or no shoot. So you get one guy here – like realistically telling us that he wants to make sure that every lead environmental wise – where it’s going – neighbors, roads, that’s not the whole shoot-no shoot video, right? So how can that be put in with these guys right here? So it becomes like federal? Private. County? Now you’re the state. How can we work hand-in-hand guys? That’s what I’m saying. JC: Right. I imagine we could and... KD: We no need the land from you. JC: Maybe we could get a Hunter-Ed program down here – a program manager down here. KD: Right? We get the land – we get the programs that can work. JC: Yeah. KD: If these guys did their homework and they been trying for years and years. I like see one first class facility being built and the county just got to foot the material WC: My schedule has changed at work and it’s gonna be kind of hard for me to be here on Mondays on time. Is it possible that we could change it to Tuesday? Is that something that we gotta vote on – I don’t know what the process is with that? TL: Any other business in Kona? TN: No, we have no other business, but I did want to ask a question on the agenda. TL: OK. 38 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 17, 2017 TN: It says here if we wanted an item on the agenda we just have to let the secretary know or do we let you know, Tom? TL: No, let me know. TN: OK. Thank you, Tom. TL: Meeting adjourned at 8:49 p.m. Respectfully submitted by: Donna Urban-Higuchi, Secretary ATTEST: Thomas H. Lodge 39