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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2017-10-11 Salary Commission MinutesPage 1 BEFORE THE SALARY COMMISSION COUNTY OF HAWAII •*• TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS For the meeting had with the Salary Commission, County of Hawai'i, at the County Council Chambers, 25 Aupuni Street, Hilo, Hawai'i, 96720, commencing at 10:02 a.m. on October 11, 2017. Members of the Salary Commission: Chairperson: Vice -Chairperson: HUGH Y. ONO FLORENCE K. IKEDA Members: JAMES W. HIGGINS MILTON PAVAO HAROLD D. DOW, M.D. THOMAS E. FRATINARDO Chair Pro Tem: Testimony from the public: Director of the Department of Finance: Commission Counsel: TAKEN BEFORE: WILLIAM V. BRILHANTE, JR., ESQ. (Ex -Officio Member) PETE HENDRICKS DEANNA SAKO AMY SELF, ESQ. Deputy Corporation Counsel 101 Aupuni Street Suite 325 Hilo, Hawai'i 96720 KURT FAUT, CSR. NO. 418 ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 2 1 Wednesday, October 11, 2017 2 --000-- 3 CHR. PRO TEM BRILHANTE: Good morning, everybody. We'll 4 call the County of Hawaii Salary Commission meeting to order 5 here. 6 Good morning. I'm William Brilhante. I'm the 7 Acting Director of Human Resources, and, for the time being, 8 I'll be the Chair Pro Tem of the Salary Commission, moving 9 forward, until we conduct our election of officers which will 10 be later on in the agenda. 11 Right now what I'd like to do is start from my left 12 and have the Salary Commission Members state their name for 13 the record. 14 MR. FRATINARDO: My name is Thomas E. Fratinardo. 15 MR. DOW: Harold Dow. 16 MS. IKEDA: Florence Ikeda. 17 MR. ONO: Hugh Ono. 18 MR. PAVAO: Milton Pavao. 19 MR. HIGGINS: Jim Higgins. 20 CHR. PRO TEM BRILHANTE: And we have a court reporter as 21 well. And we have corporation counsel, Ms. Amy Self. Thank 22 you. 23 At this time, what we'd like to do is move on to 24 statements from the public. What we're going to do is limit 25 public comments to five minutes. And we have one individual ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 3 1 signed up, Pete Hendricks. 2 Could you please come forward? You can sit at the 3 table here, and be sure to press the microphone and introduce 4 yourself and anybody else who will be accompanying you. 5 MR. HENDRICKS: My name is Pete Hendricks. I'm the 6 Vice -Chair of the Police Commission. And with us today 7 we have two other commission members, Arthur Buckman and 8 Scotty Paiva, and our admin. person, Josie Pelayo, and our 9 corp. counsel, Malia Hall. 10 I would like to testify in favor of the intent of 11 the letter sent by former Chair Guy Schutte on December 16th, 12 2016, for the equitable salary structure being that the chief 13 and the deputy chief would be at the top of the pay scale in 14 the Police Department (SEE ATT. A). 15 Fortunately, we have a great chief. But over the 16 years, because of the inequity in salary structure, when 17 majors and assistant chiefs reach a certain number of years 18 and salary, they make more than the chief. So that a person 19 who's qualified by time and experience and performance very 20 often decides not to apply for chief when the time is right 21 when the chief retires. 22 And the details are to be worked out, of course, by 23 the Salary Commission. But I would like to strongly suggest 24 that this be done. To some extent that's the case with the 25 Fire Department, too. Thank you. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 4 1 CHR. PRO TEM BRILHANTE: Thank you very much. Any 2 questions? Okay. 3 MR. ONO: Now, I just have a statement. I think 4 we're well aware, you know, Harry Kubojiri is my son-in-law. 5 So I was well aware that, you know, oftentimes many of the 6 subordinates were making substantially more than he was. And 7 I can see this is a problem in the hiring or bringing on a 8 new person at that top level, not only in that department, 9 but other departments. So we're eagerly looking forward to 10 addressing this issue, Pete. 11 MR. DOW: I have a question: When did this 12 salary inversion begin at the Police Department? 13 MR. HENDRICKS: I can't give you the exact time, 14 but it's been going on for -- in recent years, in the last 15 ten years. 16 MR. FRATINARDO: May I ask a question? 17 CHR. PRO TEM BRILHANTE: Yes. 18 MR. FRATINARDO: Mr. Hendricks, in the future, what 19 would be the biggest difficulty in retaining or hiring a new 20 and highly qualified police chief and deputy police chief? 21 MR. HENDRICKS: I think at the present time the 22 salary structure. We've had actual cases where assistant 23 chiefs decided not to apply for chief who were eminently 24 qualified because of the fact that they would have to take a 25 cut in pay. That's a little hard when you have kids still ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 5 1 in college and home expenses, like we all do. 2 MR. FRATINARDO: And are you privy to how much of a 3 discrepancy there is between, say, the highest paid employee 4 for the Hawaii County Police Department versus the chief and 5 the deputy chief? 6 CHR. PRO = BRILHANTE : Let me interject for now. You 7 know, I think that information we do have provided for you. 8 And we could have that discussion. I think when we call that 9 specific item upon the agenda, we'll have a more detailed 10 discussion. 11 At this time, I guess, the questions would be in 12 specific relationship to the testimony that was provided. 13 And then we can go into further detail moving forward. 14 Mr. Hendricks, would you be available for 15 questions? Will you be staying for the entirety of the 16 meeting and be available for questions, if called upon later? 17 MR. HENDRICKS: Yes. All of us will. And I would 18 request that Mr. Arthur Buckman, who has a much deeper 19 economic background and governmental background be allowed to 20 participate. 21 CHR. PRO = BRILHANTE : Okay. Thank you. 22 MR. ONO: Can I make a comment? 23 CHR. PRO TEM BRILHANTE: Sure. 24 MR. ONO: Unfortunately, this happens in a lot of 25 places throughout the County, and I sympathize with the ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 6 1 situation. My only comment is that whatever we decide here 2 will definitely have a snowball effect on the rest of the 3 departments. And maybe, maybe this is the right thing to do. 4 I don't know. But it definitely will affect other 5 departments also. 6 MR. HENDRICKS: Yes, Sir. I'm aware of the budget 7 implications that are a little bit scary. That's the down 8 side. 9 CHR. PRO TEM BRILHANTE: Okay. Anything further? At this 10 time we'll close -- 11 Thank you, Mr. Hendricks. 12 At this time we'll close the public -comment 13 section, and we'll move on to communications. 14 Any other communications, Glynis? 15 MS. YAMADA: No. 16 CHR. PRO TEM BRILHANTE: Okay. Just those matters we have 17 under Unfinished Business. Okay. Great. I'm glad. Now we 18 can move on to New Business, which is election of officers. 19 So what we're going to do is we're going to hold elections 20 for two officers. First, we'll nominate and we'll vet a 21 Chair. And then the Chair would succeed in taking my place. 22 And then we'll nominate and vet a Vice -Chair. 23 So at this time, what I'd like to do is open up 24 nominations for the position of Chair. 25 MR. ONO: Hugh Ono. I'd like to nominate Jim ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 7 1 Higgins for the position of Chair. The reason is he's been a 2 chair of a major commission before. He was the chair of the 3 Department of Water Supply. He knows the protocol and the 4 procedure. So as such, my nomination is Jim Higgins. 5 CHR. PRO TEM BRILHANTE: Any second? 6 MR. HIGGINS: I'd like to withdraw my name, and I'd 7 like to nominate Hugh Ono. I'd like to spend a little more 8 time, since this is my first meeting, getting to know what's 9 going on here, really. 10 CHR, PBG = BRILHANTE: Okay. Just for the record, we're 11 going to go back to the first nomination of Mr. Higgins, and 12 I'm going to ask: 13 Mr. Higgins, is this a nomination you'd be willing 14 to accept? 15 MR. HIGGINS: Not at this time. 16 CHR. PRO TEM BRILHANTE: So, Mr. Ono, I would request that 17 you withdraw your nomination of Mr. Higgins at this time. 18 MR. ONO: I refuse -- I would withdraw my 19 nomination based on the candidate's comments. 20 CHR. PRO TEM BRILHANTE: Okay. Thank you. Open it for a new 21 nomination for the position of chair. 22 MR. FRATINARDO: I'd like to nominate Florence 23 Ikeda. 24 CHR. PRO TEM BRILHANTE: Any -- 25 MR. ONO: I second that. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 1 CHR. PBG = BRILHANTE: Any discussion? 2 MR. ONO: Move that the nominations be closed. 3 CHR. PBG = BRILHANTE: Well, let's go to Ms. Ikeda first, 4 see if she's comfortable accepting the position. 5 MS. IKEDA: I'm not comfortable. I feel like I'm 6 the lowest person on this Commission because everybody has 7 titles, but I'm just an ordinary citizen. 8 MR. PAVAO: Titles doesn't mean anything. 9 MS. IKEDA: Well, I think I'd be more comfortable 10 as a "Vice" than a "Chairperson." 11 MR. FRATINARDO: I withdraw my nomination. 12 CHR. PRO TEM BRILHANTE: Okay. Thank you. Nominations are 13 reopen. Any other nomination for Chair? 14 MR. HIGGINS: I'd like to nominate Hugh Ono. 15 MR. FRATINARDO: I second that. 16 CHR. PRO TEM BRILHANTE: Second. Okay. We have a 17 nomination of Hugh Ono as chair. Any discussion? 18 MR. ONO: I have a comment. I'm not going to 19 withdraw my name from that, but I really was not interested 20 in serving as a chair. I would have considered Vice -Chair. 21 But you know, it's got to be done. And so with that said, 22 thank you. 23 CHR. PRO TEM BRILHANTE: That sounds like an acceptance of 24 the nomination. So before anybody changes their mind, all in 25 favor of Mr. Hugh Ono as Chair of the Salary Commission? ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 9 1 1 VOICE VOTE BY COMMISSIONERS: Ayes - 6. 2 CHR. PRO TEMBRILHANTE : Any opposed? Hearing none, 3 Mr. Ono, you're now the Chair, and I will be happy to swap 4 seats with you. 5 MR. DOW: Mr. Chairman, is this for this 6 calendar year? 7 MR. BRILHANTE: Yes. The term of the chair will 8 run through the end of December. And then in January, 9 pursuant to the County Charter, we will conduct new 10 elections. And there's no restriction as to whether or not 11 the chair can continue in the same role, and vice -chair 12 officers. 13 MR. DOW: Thank you. 14 CHR. ONO: First question is, what's the salary for 15 this job? 16 MR. HIGGINS: You lucked out. Only two months. 17 CHR. ONO: Thank you, very much. I -- just a 18 statement from me that, you know, I need all the help that we 19 can get on this Commission to conduct our business to 20 include, you know, Robert's Rules of Order. I don't always 21 get it right, at times, so I appreciate any help that I can 22 get. 23 I'm guessing that the next order of business is to 24 elect a Vice -Chair. Nominations are open for the position of 25 Vice -Chair. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 10 1 MR. FRATINARDO: I'd like to nominate Florence 2 Ikeda. 3 MR. HIGGINS: Second. 4 CHR. ONO: It's been moved and seconded that 5 Florence Ikeda serve as the Vice -Chair. Discussion. 6 Any statement from you, Florence? 7 MS. IKEDA: I'd like to ask that, does that mean 8 that a vice -chair then becomes the chair? 9 MR. BRILHANTE: Only in the absence or the 10 unavailability of the chair. 11 CHR. ONO: Any further discussion? That being said, 12 it's been moved and seconded that Florence Ikeda serve as the 13 Vice -Chair of this Salary Commission. All those in favor 14 say aye. 15 VOICE VOTE BY COMMISSIONERS: Ayes - 6. 16 CHR. ONO: Those opposed? Motion is carried. 17 Congratulations, Florence. It's you and me today. 18 Next agenda item is Approval of the Minutes. The 19 last minutes were on January 20th, 2017. Seems like ages 20 ago. And with that said, accept the motion to approve the 21 minutes -- or any comments, first? 22 MR. DOW: I have a comment. On page 10, line 23 18, I think there's a typo. Says: We will take that 24 decision forward to the "counsel" for funding. I think they 25 meant the County Council instead of the Corporate Counsel. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 11 1 CHR. ONO: So noted. What line is that? 2 MR. DOW: 18. 3 CHR. ONO: 18. Bill, is that a correction that 4 needs to be made. Because it implies any kind of counsel, 5 Corporation Counsel or . . . 6 MR. BRILHANTE: That's correct. I think the more 7 specificity we have the better we are, so I think the 8 inclusion of County Council, making that amendment is proper. 9 CHR. ONO: Advise me: Do we need a motion to make 10 that change? 11 MR. BRILHANTE: Generally what we do is we address 12 all the proposed amendments. 13 CHR. ONO: Okay. 14 MR. BRILHANTE: And then at the end we have a 15 motion to submit -- or to file the minutes as amended. 16 CHR. ONO: Okay. Any other changes or amendments to 17 the -- 18 MR. DOW: Yes. There's another one here. 19 Page 29, line 20, there's the word his. I think it's this, 20 T -H -I -S. 21 CHR. ONO: Page 29. 22 MR. DOW: Page 29, line 20. 23 CHR. ONO: Okay. And would you repeat the change, 24 please, again. 25 MR. DOW: Line 20 reads: Had already ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 12 1 developed "his" system. I think it's probably supposed to 2 read, "this" system. 3 CHR. ONO: Okay. Any discussion on that? That 4 change is so noted. 5 MR. FRATINARDO: And on page 32, line 1, it says: 6 Because "they are" paid. Shouldn't it be: Because their, 7 T -H -E -I -R, paid? 8 CHR. ONO: Okay. So noted. Any additional 9 changes? Okay. There being none, I'll accept a motion to 10 accept the minutes as amended. 11 MR. PAVAO: Mr. Chairman, I have a question: For 12 those of us that was not here for that previous meeting, do 13 we abstain from approving the minutes because we were not 14 there? 15 CHR. ONO: No. I don't believe so. 16 MR. BRILHANTE: Although some of the Commission 17 Members were not present or were not serving in their 18 capacity during the last Commission meeting, the 19 understanding is that you have read the minutes, and you're 20 approving the minutes as they are stated, as amended. 21 MR. FRATINARDO: Question, Mr. Brilhante: When 22 will we have discussion on what we have highlighted? 23 MR. BRILHANTE: Let me confer with Corp. Counsel. 24 (Discussion off the record.) 25 MR. BRILHANTE: Thank you very much for that ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 13 1 question. I think what is best we do is if you have any 2 concerns regarding specific items in the minutes, now is the 3 time to have them discussed. 4 MR. FRATINARDO: First question would be, is -- and 5 this is -- Mr. Brilhante was discussing about the way the 6 pay, the proposed pay schedule is set up. And on line 5 on 7 page 36: And you can create whatever, as a body, you feel is 8 the most equitable to provide, is to provide an equitable 9 salary schedule or salary for the executives and/or elected 10 officials. 11 And then dropping down to line 14, Ms. Schoen's 12 not present, so should I leave that, being she's not here? 13 MR. BRILHANTE: Ms. Deputy Corp. Counsel Amy Self is 14 here in her stead. 15 MR. FRATINARDO: So on line 14 at page 36: So that 16 their total salaries and benefits have a reasonable 17 relationship to the compensation in the public and private 18 sector. 19 So that -- this comes from our Chapter 13, Section 20 28 of the Hawaii County Charter? That's my question. 21 MR. BRILHANTE: That's correct. 22 MR. FRATINARDO: The second question I have, on 23 page 37 on line 9, 10, and 11: The police chief's salary 24 shall be twenty percent more than the highest paid 25 subordinate, then that would be like almost an automatic ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 14 1 increase. That was from Guy Schutte, am I correct, the 2 letter ( SEE ATT. A) ? 3 MR. BRILHANTE: That's correct. And that specific 4 reference was to the fact that there was some discussion 5 regarding if we set a specific salary now, how would that -- 6 how would moving forward in the future affect the salary? So 7 we were trying to put some -- we had some discussion 8 regarding putting some placeholders, some benchmarks, so that 9 as we move forward in subsequent years, the salary gets 10 adjusted accordingly. 11 MR. FRATINARDO: So on line 17, you asked, 12 Mr. Brilhante: Can we afford it as a County? And 13 Mr. Morimoto said, Here's my next question: Can we afford it 14 now? 15 In the Charter, it doesn't say, as us being a 16 Salary Commission, whether we need to determine whether they 17 can afford it or not. It doesn't say may; it says shall. We 18 shall bring these salaries up to par with, as I understand 19 it, the most highest paid County employee. 20 MR. BRILHANTE: You know, that's a substantive 21 question, and I think it would be better addressed when we 22 have the discussion in the agenda as it relates to the 23 specific action of the Commission. 24 CHR. ONO: Thank you. May I say something here. I 25 see us getting off into a -- as the Chair, I see us getting ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 15 1 off into discussion about specific positions and specific 2 salaries. 3 What I would like to propose for the Salary 4 Commission is to undertake a process by which first we go 5 through a phase of discovery to find out what the problems 6 and issues are, not only with the police department or the 7 fire department, but for the entire County of Hawaii where we 8 have these positions that will be specifically affected by 9 our decision. 10 So we go through a period of fact-finding, and it 11 might include even getting testimony from department heads or 12 from the mayor's office, from the county council, to collect 13 this information on which we can make a meaningful decision 14 on what to do with the salaries. Along with that, at the 15 same time we can have the finance department as part of that. 16 Once we do our fact-finding and collection of 17 information, then we can go into specific deliberation of 18 coming up with a plan for how to address each of these 19 positions. I'm sure there are a lot of positions that will 20 be affected by what we recommend. 21 MS. SELF: Mr. Chairman, if I may, I didn't realize 22 you were going to get into this area. But what's on the 23 table right now is just correcting the minutes. Are there 24 any further corrections to be made of the minutes? 25 And any discussion of the substance of the minutes ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 16 1 can come up, you know, when -- you already have these things 2 agendized anyway. 3 So, right, now it should be just determining whether: 4 or not there are any more corrections to the minutes and then 5 voting to approve them or not to approve them. 6 CHR. ONO: Thank you. 7 MR. FRATINARDO: Sorry. 8 CHR. ONO: Move for -- I mean, motion to accept 9 the minutes as amended? We have moved and seconded. Those 10 all in favor say aye. 11 VOICE VOTE BY COMMISSIONERS: Ayes - 6. 12 CHR. ONO: Okay. Help me out. Where are we now? 13 (Discussion off the record.) 14 CHR. ONO: Okay. Kurt, we'll help you out. So 15 I'll repeat that, Kurt. 16 It was moved by Mr. Pavao and seconded by Ms. Ikeda 17 to accept the minutes as revised. And we voted in favor. 18 Okay. Unfinished business. Communication Number 19 16-01 dated December 22nd, 2016, from Guy Schutte, the Chair 20 of the Police Commission, concerning equitable salary for the 21 County of Hawaii Police Chief and Deputy Police Chief. I 22 believe we heard testimony from Mr. Pete Hendricks on that. 23 And motion to accept and file. 24 MR. PAVAO: So moved. 25 MR. HIGGINS: Second. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 17 1 CHR. ONO: So moved by Mr. Pavao and seconded by 2 Mr. Higgins. Any discussion? All those in favor say aye. 3 VOICE VOTE BY COMMISSIONERS: Ayes - 6. 4 CHR. ONO: Motion is carried. 5 Next item. Review of existing compensation plan to 6 include consideration and possible decision-making on 7 proposals for adjustments to current salaries of executives 8 and elected officials which includes an update on new 9 collective bargaining agreements, state compensation plan, 10 car allowance for County directors and deputy directors and 11 agency heads. 12 So this item would be part of, you know, what I had 13 mentioned a little while ago about undertaking a 14 comprehensive process of fact-finding, and through that 15 fact-finding, coming up with our recommendations. 16 MR. FRATINARDO: I have a question regarding that. 17 So would that be under a permitted action group? As far as 18 taking that action you're speaking of, doing all the 19 technical work for the salaries, is that something we 20 establish today as far as appointing a committee for that? 21 CHR. ONO: I would -- let's discuss it and then 22 decide what to do with it. 23 MR. FRATINARDO: In the OIP it's called Permitted 24 Action Groups or Permitted Interaction Group. So I just want 25 to make sure that -- I'm still trying to learn the Office of ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 18 1 Information Practices to make sure that I'm not in any type 2 of violation or -- but I know from the chair -- we can do 3 that from the chair. So that was my question for Amy. 4 MS. SELF: I'll let you know if you're in 5 violation, or before you're in violation. 6 MR. PAVAO: Mr. Chairman, just a comment. I 7 totally agree with your, kind of, direction. Because I think 8 we need to know where we are before we can go any place else. 9 And I'd like to further amend what you said. I'd 10 really like to see staff put together a matrix of the 11 different positions throughout the state, each county, so 12 that we can look line by line at the salaries of comparable 13 positions throughout the State. I think that would be really 14 helpful. Because when I first got my packet and I looked at 15 what was sent, I see lot of discrepancies between state, 16 between islands, for the similar positions. 17 I realize there's population difference, there's 18 incidents difference, there's a bunch of differences that I 19 think we need to consider and develop some sort of logical 20 system to come up with equitable pay. 21 So, I'd like to ask staff to prepare a table listing 22 all the positions for each island and the comparable pay so 23 that we can look right across and see the differences. I 24 noticed one that really caught my eye on the initial thing 25 that was sent to me in my initial packet was the relatively ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 19 1 low pay of corp. counsel versus the other islands. 2 And I think our corp. counsel -- like from Kauai, 3 for example, Kaua'i's corp. counsel is higher than ours. And 4 think our corp. counsel does a lot. At least they should be 5 the same. 6 CHR. ONO: Mr. Pavao, I believe within this folder 7 here is a -- 8 MR. PAVAO: Yeah. I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman. I saw 9 that. But that's really confusing. What I wanted to see 10 was position, same position across, with comparable pays. I 11 looked at that one, and it's kind of confusing. If staff 12 could prepare something a little bit more simple, with 13 similar positions listed across. 14 MR. FRATINARDO: I have a question for the Chair, 15 Mr. Ono. So I'm a -- if it's delegated to me, I'll do -- so 16 I'm all about delegation, so -- and creating what you were 17 speaking about earlier. We need to delegate a permitted 18 action group to be the people that are going to be 19 approaching the separate finance departments in each 20 division. 21 So I think Mr. Pavao, it's something Mr. Pavao 22 would probably want. So we're going to have to meet with 23 each different division finance director to determine pay 24 scale through the collective bargaining agreements. So the 25 highest step, that's where I'm -- my target's -- where I'm ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 20 1 focused right now is. And this twenty percent pay raise 2 suggestion, they're in collective bargaining right now, so I 3 believe that they're -- the highest paid executive management 4 position is receiving a, somewhere in the neighborhood of a 5 four percent pay raise right now while they're in binding 6 arbitration. 7 So we need to determine those, that particular 8 information, find out how we're going to proceed on a raise 9 and on these salaries. 10 So I guess my question would be is would we need to 11 assign a permitted action group? 12 MR. PAVAO: If I may comment. I don't think we 13 need to form a group, and I don't think we need to do the 14 work. Because it'd probably be a violation of the Sunshine 15 Law if we try to do stuff like that. 16 My request was to staff to prepare a table for us. 17 Staff has all the resources. I'm sure they could present a 18 reasonable table that we can look at and compare. But I 19 don't think we, as Commissioners, should be doing that. I 20 think that's beyond our responsibilities. 21 CHR. ONO: I need an explanation of this group that 22 You're talking -- is it like a subcommittee meeting? If Corp. 23 Counsel can address that for me. I've never heard that 24 terminology. 25 MS. SELF: Yes. You know, under the Sunshine Law, ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 21 1 you have the general rule that everything must be done in 2 public, right? Well, what he's referring to is there are 3 certain exceptions to that general rule which allow for 4 permitted actions outside of a public meeting. And the 5 specific one he's referring to is creating a type of 6 investigatory committee so that they can meet. 7 You can have up to less than a quorum. A quorum is 8 five. So you can have up to four members of the Commission 9 meet outside of the public meeting so that you're -- you can 10 discuss freely, and then come back and report those results, 11 or whatever you found out, to the full Commission. And then 12 you can't vote on it at that point or have any discussion. 13 But at a subsequent meeting, then you can be back on the 14 agenda again, and the full Commission can discuss it freely 15 and then vote on it. 16 Right now though, since this is your first meeting, 17 you have a lot of new members, I think what Mr. Pavao is 18 saying is that -- I think he's -- 19 Correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Pavao. 20 But I think he's saying maybe it's better to 21 discuss these things that are on the agenda today as a full 22 Commission. And then maybe at some point you may want to 23 have a subcommittee when you, you know, when you want to get 24 some more details or have some investigatory activities going 25 on. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 22 1 And I wanted to also add that the -- it's my 2 understanding that the union negotiations have been 3 completed, but they're still waiting on the results, is what 4 I've been told. 5 Is that correct, Mr. Brilhante? 6 MR. BRILHANTE: For the majority of bargaining 7 units, negotiations have been completed. 8 MS. SELF: Okay. So that is another piece of the 9 puzzle that will be coming to the commissioners; isn't that 10 correct? 11 MR. BRILHANTE: That's correct. 12 MS. SELF: They don't have all the information yet. 13 MR. HIGGINS: Well, shouldn't we begin to put 14 together some kind of a list of who you want to be sitting 15 there, updating us, and giving us as much information and 16 background as possible. I mean, I feel right now pretty 17 ignorant on what's going on, like whether it's department 18 heads or the finance director, et cetera. 19 MR. FRATINARDO: My question would be is to 20 prioritize. Are we going to give pay raises to everyone as a 21 group? Or are we going to prioritize the importance of their 22 position, such as public safety? So, that would be my 23 question. Who do we bring in first to talk to? Do we 24 prioritize those so that -- can we discuss, how do we go 25 about prioritizing? ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 23 1 1 CHR. ONO: Let me respond to that. I would -- my 2 preference would be to develop that working plan first. 3 Okay? And it doesn't take long. Because it's primarily an 4 outline with a schedule given of what we plan to do when and 5 target dates by when to complete them. 6 And I need advising as to whether that's 7 appropriate for one these groups that you call for or not and 8 whether that can be done via e-mail and meetings outside of 9 this venue here. 10 MS. SELF: You can create a committee and define 11 the scope of whatever you want that committee to do. It has 12 to be done -- you have to create the scope and who's going to 13 be on that committee at a public meeting. 14 CHR. ONO: Yes. 15 MS. SELF: And then after that, they can go and 16 discuss outside of a public meeting whatever it is you assign 17 them to do. 18 MR. FRATINARDO: On the Office of Information 19 Practices, it has the current laws, the laws that are going 20 to change in 2018. We need to be aware of those. It has 21 training classes that we can take. I don't know if anyone 22 has not taken those. So those are all the laws which apply 23 to us. 24 CHR. ONO: Understood. 25 MS. IKEDA: May I make a comment. Regarding what ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 24 1 Mr. Pavao said, we had discussed it in our January meeting. 2 And this chart here was -- if you look across it, it has 3 State, County of Honolulu, Hawaii, Maui, and Kauai. And it 4 was to show us a comparison of all the different amounts that 5 these particular positions in each county was making. 6 MR. PAVAO: Yeah. If I may respond to that. I took 7 a look at this -- oh, I'm sorry. I took a look at this and I 8 guess my simple mind refuses to look at it. What I request 9 staff do is, example, "Fire Chief", listed across. And on the 10 same line, Honolulu, Hawaii, Maui, Kauai, just listed on one 11 line. So when we look at it, we can look right across and 12 see the difference. 13 The way this is set up, it takes some doing to find 14 the appropriate position to compare to the different islands. 15 I mean, it does the same thing, but it's hard to just look 16 right across and tell the difference. 17 Example, I try to find corp. counsel, and I had a 18 hard time finding corp. counsel in here. Because it's not a 19 line item. It goes by -- I don't know, it's different. This 20 is not an easy chart to read. And I'm sure staff can make it 21 a lot easier. 22 And again, I repeat, if they can do it for every 23 island and every single -- like public works, public works 24 director, public works deputy, you know, put them on the line 25 and salaries right across, for the different islands, I think ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 7 that 8 MR. PAVAO: So it makes it easier. 9 CHR. ONO: Okay. 10 MR. BRILHANTE: Can I interject, Chair? 11 CHR. ONO: Certainly. 12 MR. BRILHANTE: In response to Mr. Pavao's 13 request, that's something that -- you know, our office 14 prepared this document initially, and that's something that 15 definitely we can do moving forward and provide for you. 16 I just wanted to just identify some of the issues 17 that were, you know, kind of, I guess, what we're dealing 18 with is. Take for example the position of corp. counsel. 19 That's not a state-wide position. The State has a deputy, 20 has a attorney general and the deputy attorney general. 21 So that's why, if you look at that column on the 22 left side where it comes under the State, the county corp. 23 counsels would be comparative to the state attorney general 24 and their deputies. So that's why I -- but I can see where 25 there's some confusion because there's some positions that's ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 25 1 that would be really helpful for us to realize where we are 2 as a county and what needs to be done. 3 CHR. ONO: So Milton, it's a formatting. It's 4 just -- 5 MR. PAVAO: Yeah. 6 CHR. ONO: -- reformatting the information so 7 that 8 MR. PAVAO: So it makes it easier. 9 CHR. ONO: Okay. 10 MR. BRILHANTE: Can I interject, Chair? 11 CHR. ONO: Certainly. 12 MR. BRILHANTE: In response to Mr. Pavao's 13 request, that's something that -- you know, our office 14 prepared this document initially, and that's something that 15 definitely we can do moving forward and provide for you. 16 I just wanted to just identify some of the issues 17 that were, you know, kind of, I guess, what we're dealing 18 with is. Take for example the position of corp. counsel. 19 That's not a state-wide position. The State has a deputy, 20 has a attorney general and the deputy attorney general. 21 So that's why, if you look at that column on the 22 left side where it comes under the State, the county corp. 23 counsels would be comparative to the state attorney general 24 and their deputies. So that's why I -- but I can see where 25 there's some confusion because there's some positions that's ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 26 1 been clustered and as through the various counties. 2 So what I can do is we'll work on this and 3 specifically identify each department and their counterparts 4 and across-the-board state specific salary range for each 5 position. We can do that. 6 MR. PAVAO: Example, you know, public works -- and 7 I really don't care about the State. I'm just concerned 8 about the islands, the counties. You know, public works 9 Oahu, Hawaii, Maui, Kauai, on the same line so we can 10 compare. 11 MR. BRILHANTE: Yes. That's something we can 12 definitely work on. 13 CHR. ONO: So Bill, can I ask that you and Milton, 14 your office and Milton work together and come up with a 15 format for this and work directly with each other on that? 16 MR. BRILHANTE: Definitely. No problem. Thank 17 you. 18 CHR. ONO: Is that okay with the rest of the 19 Commission? 20 MR. HIGGINS: Mr. Chairman, you know, we're kind of 21 thrashing around here. What I would recommend is it's all 22 going to boil down to money and that affordability. And what 23 I would recommend is we have the finance department talk to 24 us first so we get a really good idea of what the money 25 factor is. Because any changes we make now on increases is ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 27 1 not just an annual thing. It goes on for thirty years 2 because of pension; it goes on because of health care 3 considerations. So the packages can be huge. It goes 4 geometric. 5 And most governments are drastically in arrears and 6 have unfunded liabilities to gigantic sums of money. So we 7 would be remiss if we didn't explore that. I mean, everybody 8 in this room wants pay raises for our friends and neighbors 9 who are all in these positions. But at some point in time, 10 kicking the can down the road, the road ends. So all I'm 11 saying is I'm all for what Mr. Hendricks has proposed makes a 12 heck of a lot of sense. 13 But instead of us zeroing in on individual items, 14 individual jobs at this time, I would prefer and feel very 15 comfortable if I knew the financial background of this County 16 to the extent where I could talk about it in a proper way. 17 MR. FRATINARDO: I have a question. Mr. Higgins 18 made sense. But what I would like to know is, go back to 19 Mr. Pavao, is we need to find out how much money it's going to 20 cost us. We have to come up with these pay raises. We're 21 mandated by the County Charter. It says: We shall make 22 these pay raises. So to find out how much it's going to cost 23 us, we need to find, well, to find out if the County can 24 afford the -- I'm not going to assume whether they can afford 25 it or not, but we need to find out what it's going to cost ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 28 1 us. 2 So we need to go through the process of coming up 3 with this pay schedule for each different manager and find 4 out like for public works or for public safety, you know, 5 what would those pay raises be. And then we'll make contact 6 with the Department of Finance to find out what they can 7 afford. 8 CHR. ONO: Thank you. Let me make a comment on 9 that -- not a comment. But I would like to request more 10 information from either corp. counsel or from our Department 11 of Human Resources, the responsibilities of the Salary 12 Commission. And I understand what was mentioned before about 13 the financing part of it. But would someone clarify, for the 14 Commission's information, the responsibility for funding the 15 salary package. Is it more, occur at the policy level of the 16 County Council and the Executive Branch of the County of 17 Hawaii versus this Commission? 18 Or once we recommend a package, does that become 19 final as of the effective date that we decide to set that 20 for? 21 MR. BRILHANTE: Ms. Self, I will take the first 22 crack at it, and then you can follow. 23 Now, this Commission is somewhat unique in that its 24 duties and responsibilities are specifically described in the 25 Charter as it relates to the other jurisdictions. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 29 1 Under the County of Hawaii Charter, the Salary 2 Commission has the ultimate discretion to set the salaries 3 for department heads, deputies, the mayor, the managing 4 director, and those positions. I would -- you know, with that 5 being said, you know, whereas the other jurisdictions, once 6 the Salary Commission sets the salaries for the similar 7 positions, then they have to go and get county council 8 approval. 9 That's not the case here with the County of Hawaii. 10 You're the ultimate decision-making authority here. With 11 that being said, you know, I like the discussion. And no 12 matter what we do when it comes to finances, there has to be 13 a reasonable approach. You know, the last thing we want to 14 do is set the County in such a severe financial hardship 15 through actions of the Commission that it's just 16 unattainable. 17 So, I think that was one of the concerns at the last 18 Salary Commission meeting that we had. And so, we requested 19 the presence of the Finance Director. And Ms. Deanna Sako, 20 our newly appointed Finance Director here, is available 21 today. 22 So, you know, with moving forward, you know, that 23 being said, we always have to keep financial soundness and 24 responsibility in mind whenever we make any decision. That 25 would be my recommendation. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 30 1 MR. FRATINARDO: Sure. So that's where my 2 suggestion comes back to. We need to find out how much it's 3 going to cost the County, so we need to create that group, 4 that subcommittee, that's to start investigating how much 5 it's going to cost, so we can go back to what Mr. Higgins is 6 saying, bring in the finance director to find out what we can 7 afford. 8 Because right now we can afford what salaries are 9 being paid. They're being paid an existing salary right now. 10 So, apparently, the County of Hawaii can afford those salarie 11 So we need to determine through investigation what these pay 12 raises are going to look like. And we're 13 going to have to be conservative. But according to this 14 twenty percent, from Mr. Schutte's letter, I guess we start 15 from there. 16 CHR. ONO: Well, I just, I think the discussion we 17 just had is very meaningful because we are unique, this 18 County of Hawaii. So whatever our final decision, this will 19 become enacted. And it doesn't require any action by either 20 the county council to include it in the budget or not. So, 21 the pertinence of the County's financial status is very 22 important to our discussions. And I'm certain it's going 23 to affect whatever recommendations we come out with in the 24 end. 25 So I do see this Commission having this ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 31 1 subcommittee. Because Deanna Sako is here, and she was 2 scheduled to be here, it might be a good chance to have her 3 just offer some comments right now. We can always call her 4 back at future meetings. Is the commission in favor of that? 5 MR. FRATINARDO: I'm definitely in favor of that. 6 CHR. ONO: So if you don't mind, Deanna, please. 7 MS. SAKO: Good morning, everyone. Deanna Sako, 8 Director of Finance. I'm happy to be here today answering 9 any of your questions. But I was listening to some of the 10 ones you did have. And, basically, I mean, yes, your duties 11 are to set the salaries, and then we'll find the money, so to 12 speak. 13 We appreciate the fact that you are kind of taking 14 into consideration the struggles the County has had. When we 15 were asked to appear, it was to come in February. And then, 16 due to various reasons, the Commission hasn't been able to 17 meet until now. So, if you'd asked me in February, the 18 answer's a little different than what it is today. 19 Since then we have had to balance the budget. You 20 know, we did have to raise the tax rates across-the-board to 21 be able to do that. But we've gone through the collective 22 bargaining. We are still waiting for two bargaining units to 23 finish that. We budgeted for those pay raises. 24 And so, now we're to the point of doing what's right: 25 and fair and being able to, you know, set the salaries for ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 32 1 the department heads and the elected officials. And that's 2 all I think everyone's asking you guys to do. 3 When you talk unfunded liabilities, they are 4 significant, like any other government. But the State of 5 Hawaii Employees Retirement System is statewide. All the 6 four counties and the State participate in it. And the state 7 legislature sets the rates of which we contribute. And right 8 now we're paying, I believe it's twenty-six percent for police 9 and fire, seventeen-ish percent for general employees. And 10 so all of that goes to help pay down those unfunded 11 liabilities. 12 So we're, actually, in decent shape on our unfunded 13 liabilities because we have been contributing. It's not one 14 of the things like some of the governments on the mainland 15 have been ignoring. We've been contributing over the years. 16 So, ours aren't as bad. But we do know that fringes are going 17 to continue to increase, like medical benefits and all of 18 that over the coming years. 19 But you know, we budgeted for collective 20 bargaining, and so we have a special provision to pay for 21 those pay raises this year. So whatever you come up with, 22 that's the provision we would use to pay for the department 23 heads' raises as well. 24 MR. FRATINARDO: Question: So correct me if I'm 25 wrong, the last pay raises that were given to executive or -- ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 33 1 was in 2014. So the mayor received a pay raise, the managing 2 director received a pay raise, the deputy managing director 3 received a pay raise, and then the county council received an 4 eight point three percent pay raise for the council members. 5 And the chairman received a $4,000 pay raise. 6 MS. SAKO: It's about that time frame. I don't 7 have the exact dates. 8 MR. FRATINARDO: So, at that time, how much 9 difficulties did the County have with paying for those pay 10 raises? 11 MS. SAKO: It just becomes a balancing act. I 12 mean, we basically know what the expenses of the County are, 13 and so the pay raises would -- or the salaries would get, you 14 know, taken into account as we balance this next budget. 15 We're already working on the budget for the next fiscal year 16 and fiscal year 119. 17 So the timing's good. You know, we'd like to take 18 it all into consideration as we do that. And so we'll find a 19 way to do it, basically. 20 MR. FRATINARDO: Thank you. 21 MR. HIGGINS: Deanna, clarify again. Let's talk 22 about the pension liability and the health care. Did you say 23 that the monies are going into the state coffers, or do we 24 have our own coffers to pay those benefits for County 25 workers? ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 34 1 MS. SAKO: So for -- let's do pension first. So 2 for pension, we participate in the Employees Retirement 3 System as a whole with the State of Hawaii. So all four 4 counties, entire State, we all participate in the same plan. 5 And the assets are not allocated to each county. We all go 6 into one big pool. Whether it's police, fire, general 7 employees, teachers, we're all contributing towards that. 8 They have the actuarial study performed every year 9 to determine how the plan is doing, and then every five years 10 they do an experience study. And based on the most recent 11 experience study, the legislature increased the rates which 12 we pay as a percentage of salaries and wages during this last 13 session. So on July 1st, we started paying those increased 14 percentages. 15 So they're set to increase over a five-year period 16 and -- I forgot to grab the chart with -- and bring it with 17 me. But at the end of that five-year period, we will be 18 paying forty-one percent of S&W for police and fire 19 officers. And I think it goes up to twenty-four percent for 20 general employees, something in that ballpark. 21 MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. Thanks for that clarification. 22 But what's alarming about all of that is that going into the 23 state system, the state system is broke. Recently, it was 24 described as a sink hole. The State of Hawaii has been 25 described as a sink hole because there are not enough liquid ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 35 1 assets to pay for our bills, frankly. 2 MS. SAKO: Just to clarify, there's the state, you 3 know, accounting system, and they collect taxes and pay the 4 bills. And then there's the Employees Retirement System, 5 which is actually a separate trust kind of group of assets. 6 It's managed separately by the ERS board. 7 MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. I understand that. And I'm 8 not trying to make a really big deal about this except for 9 the fact it all boils down to that. And the State of Hawaii, 10 the state system is about sixty percent funded. 11 In other words, when these obligations are made to 12 our employees and earned, instead of that money going into a 13 pot of money that will take care of those future obligations, 14 the politics of the world, including Hawaii, is that a lot of 15 that money is spent for other purposes, favorite projects, 16 et cetera. 17 So what we have is a system that is -- there's not 18 enough money. And all we have to do here is show some sort 19 of responsibility on knowing that. Because all of this stuff 20 gets compounded down the line beyond belief. And this is all 21 taking place when the stock and bond markets have been very 22 favorable. So, the monies that, right now, are in the pot to 23 pay off our retirees in the future has benefited from really 24 good times. 25 Now, if times don't go well in the markets, or even ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 36 1 go down, then taxpayers, which we all are, are going to be in 2 the position to, having to take all of these promises that we 3 have made to our retirees. And no money, or very little, of 4 it will go down. And so, if this taxpayer group of us means 5 to do that, to take care of those people, taxes have got to 6 go up, or some magic has got to take place. 7 So I'm just wanting -- my participation on this 8 board and giving salaries, increasing salaries, is that the 9 twenty percent increase thing really bothers me. Because 10 somebody pulled that out of the air. And maybe we can't 11 afford it. That's all I'm saying. So I want to have more 12 information on, that you can provide, on the balance sheet, 13 the unfunded liabilities, that sort of thing, so that when we 14 make this recommendation, people are not going to come back 15 to us and say, well, you guys didn't know what the hell you 16 we're talking about. 17 Because there's a lot of other people that are out 18 there that are looking at the finances of governments. And 19 so we're kind of right in the -- at the point of the spear 20 right now. That's how I'm reading it. And so, I want to be 21 very comfortable about it. 22 MS. SAKO: So just to clarify again, our 23 contribution to ERS is based on state law, which is we pay a 24 percentage of salaries and wages. And so, we leave it up to 25 the ERS board who has to take into account for, you know, ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 37 1 investment earnings as well as losses. And that money is set 2 aside. It's not comingled with the rest of the state 3 coffers. So, I just want to clarify that. 4 So we are able, right now, to meet our obligations 5 to the state ERS system as well as to the Employee Union 6 Trust Fund, which is the health premiums or health insurance 7 for our employees as well. 8 I can get you additional information, but right now 9 our payments are based on what the State requires us to pay, 10 not necessarily based on what the unfunded liabilities are. 11 Again, it's one huge unfunded liability for the entire State, 12 not just for the County. 13 MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. Thank you. 14 MS. IKEDA: I'd like to know, when we take into 15 consideration of all these raises, et cetera, do we take into 16 consideration a bi-annual budget or a five-year budget? 17 MS. SAKO: We budget one year at a time, 18 officially, that's what's approved by the County Council, as 19 well as to future years are in the plans, but we can see 20 what's coming up. We take into account as much information 21 as we have. Even the collective bargaining unit agreements 22 that were just passed, some were for two years, some were 23 for four years. So we take into account whatever we know at 24 the time. 25 This last year when we did the budget, I believe ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 38 1 Unit 11, the fire fighters, is what came back first. That's 2 the information we had, so that's what we based the other 3 unions on. So, you know, we use whatever information we have 4 at the time to do our best job in estimating, both for the 5 current year as well as the future. So we try to look at 6 least one or two years out. 7 MS. IKEDA: So we should do the same then when we 8 consider the different salaries? Would you recommend that? 9 MS. SAKO: You mean, like tying it to the terms of 10 the collective bargaining contracts? That's an option you 11 guys have. You know, what I think -- what's historically 12 happened is the rates have been set, and then later on, years 13 later, you know, the Commission reconvenes to look at 14 it again. So it could be tied to the contract; it could be 15 tied to whatever you guys want. 16 MR. PAVAO: If I may make a comment. I think 17 whatever we decide should have some kind of relationship to 18 the union raises. Example, and just for simple discussion, 19 take the police chief, we can come up with some kind of thing 20 that says the police chief shall always have five percent 21 over and beyond the highest paid rank and file. So every 22 time the union gets a raise, the chief automatically 23 gets whatever's necessary to put him to five percent. And 24 that kind of conditions can be stated in whatever we come up 25 with. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 39 1 But another thing I wanted to get, again, in simple 2 terms, what you are saying is that whatever we come up with, 3 and, hopefully, we come up with reasonable, the County will 4 abide by that at the expense of cutting other programs to 5 make up the budget. 6 MS. SAKO: Right. We either cut expenses or raise 7 revenue. 8 MR. PAVAO: Right. You'd have to cut something to 9 make up the difference of what we decide should be a 10 reasonable increase. 11 MS. SAKO: Yeah. We're going to look at all our 12 revenue sources, all our expenditures, and make it work 13 somehow. 14 MR. PAVAO: Right, right. 15 MR. FRATINARDO: Question: When was the -- other 16 than the raises I mentioned to you earlier, when was the last 17 raise that the County departments, when was the last raise 18 they received? 19 MS. SAKO: Bill, do you have that? I don't have 20 it. 21 MR. FRATINARDO: Except for those 2014 raises with 22 the mayor, the deputy -- I'm sorry, the managing director, 23 the deputy, and then the council members. 24 MR. BRILHANTE: I think incorporated in that 2014 25 raise was the police chief and the fire chief as well. But ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 40 1 prior to that, I believe the last raise was in 2007, I 2 believe, for the remaining department heads. 3 CHR. ONO: The Chair would like to begin the 4 discussion on -- and to -- on this subcommittee. I forget 5 the official name on it. But I would like to entertain 6 discussion on that, whether we want to do that or not. And 7 then, if that's what we want to do, present it in the form of 8 a motion and then actually put members on that group so that 9 we can start work outside of this venue. 10 MR. PAVAO: Mr. Chairman, if I may make a comment. 11 I think eventually that group may be helpful. I think at 12 this point in time it's premature because we don't have all 13 the information yet. 14 CHR. ONO: Well, let me respond to that. And part 15 of it is to develop the plan and schedule on who we're going 16 to talk to first and when that might happen and the target 17 dates for completing these as it leads toward, you know, 18 getting more deliberate on each position and what kind of 19 adjustments are going to be made to that. 20 And I'd be willing to do that. I've done a lot of 21 that. So I'm eager in working on that personally if nobody 22 else wants to. 23 MR. FRATINARDO: Mr. Chair, so we're going to have 24 to come up with criteria, first, for pay raises. So that's 25 one of the -- my background is in investigation, so -- and ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 41 1 fact-finding and gathering evidence. So we need to determine 2 what the criteria is going to be in order to give these 3 raises. 4 But also we just can't come here and meet once a 5 month and not do any of that background work. If we just -- 6 for me, I would be wanting to ask questions of the 7 departments. 8 CHR. ONO: Absolutely. 9 MR. FRATINARDO: So OIP interaction for us is 10 against the law, according to the Sunshine Law, but it's not 11 against the law if you assign a PIG, or an interaction group, 12 for us to go and start gathering information that we can 13 present to this Commission so they -- 14 CHR. ONO: That was my thinking. 15 MR. FRATINARDO: And that's mine also. Because 16 we've got to determine what these salaries are going to be 17 before we can speak to the Department of Finance to tell us 18 whether, what impact as a group we need to determine, you 19 know, what's going to be the informed decision that we will 20 be making as far as how much money is going to be paid out to 21 the division heads and the deputy division heads. 22 CHR. ONO: Agreed. 23 MS. SELF: Mr. Chair, I just noticed that under 24 your agenda item, we have three subsections under 6B, so that 25 may be things that you are going to be referring to, too, ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 42 1 that could be investigated. Just trying to also get you back 2 on the agenda. So these three things have not actually been 3 discussed yet. So you might want to, you know, get back on 4 this point and get through these subsections and see if 5 that's something that committee can . . . 6 CHR. ONO: So what item are you referring to? Is 7 that under Item B? 8 MS. SELF: Yes, 6B. You've got three subsections 9 under there. 10 MR. FRATINARDO: I have a question for Mr. Brilhante 11 Which bargaining units are still pending 12 signing their collective bargaining? 13 MR. BRILHANTE: My understanding is we -- 14 outstanding is still SHOPO, which is police, and UPW. 15 MR. FRATINARDO: Thank you. 16 MR. BRILHANTE: No, not UPW. HGEA Unit 14. 17 MS. SELF: Looks like that takes care of 18 subsection (1), and I believe Deanna covered the state 19 compensation plan. 20 CHR. ONO: Yes. 21 MR. FRATINARDO: So I had a question about 22 Number 3. 23 CHR. ONO: You have a lot of questions. What is 24 that? 25 MR. FRATINARDO: The department heads, do they have ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 43 1 a County vehicle that they check out during their tour of 2 business? 3 MR. BRILHANTE: May I respond to that? At the last 4 Salary Commission meeting, a request was made by one of the 5 Commissioners for our office to conduct a survey regarding 6 the current benefits that the various department heads and 7 their deputies have in relationship to County vehicles or, in 8 lieu of the County vehicle, a monthly stipend. And there was 9 a chart that we prepared (SEE ATT. B). 10 I'm going to ask the secretary if this chart was 11 provided to the Commissioners. 12 So my understanding, it wasn't provided previously 13 to the Commission. I think it was during the transition of 14 waiting for new Commission members. So what we're going to 15 do is make copies right now, and then we're going to 16 distribute them to each of you. And it's a listing of all 17 the departments and the compensation associated with either a 18 car or a car allowance. 19 MR. FRATINARDO: Thank you. 20 CHR. ONO: Does that fall under the purview of this 21 Commission also, car allowances? I don't think so. Does it? 22 23 MR. PAVAO: It's an agenda item. 24 MR. BRILHANTE: I think what was the discussion and 25 the reason that this got identified in this agenda is that at ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 44 1 the time that the previous Salary Commission, its members 2 wanted to look at the entire compensation package for each of 3 the department heads and their deputies. And that item was 4 identified as almost like a secondary benefit. 5 That being said, the car allowance and the use 6 of County vehicles is a item that's specifically reserved to 7 the mayor and the administration. So that item is not 8 something -- you know, those amounts aren't something that 9 the Salary Commission would be able to amend or revise, but 10 it is an item that you might want to consider when you -- 11 MR. FRATINARDO: So we're talking straight salary. 12 No fringe benefits after that. 13 MR. BRILHANTE: Correct. 14 CHR. ONO: With all this discussion going forward, 15 I was just thinking here that I would be comfortable with 16 holding off on this subcommittee until next meeting. I'd 17 like to have the time, after becoming the Chair for maybe 18 forty-five minutes now, to work on the next agenda. And as 19 part of the agenda, to work on a plan that we can begin the 20 discussion on. 21 First, we can bring that to the next meeting, talk 22 about that plan specifically and how we want to adjust it to 23 make it work for this Commission and then, thereafter, take 24 action on whether we want to form a group or subgroup on 25 that. Does that sound like it makes -- discussion on that, ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 45 1 please. 2 MR. FRATINARDO: I'm satisfied with that too. 3 CHR. ONO: Thank you. 4 MR. PAVAO: I'm sorry. Can you repeat that. 5 CHR. ONO: Yeah. Milton, what I suggested is, you 6 know, give me time to work on the Department of Human 7 Resources on the next agenda, or with Glynis, and to 8 include -- I can prepare a draft plan for us to work on to 9 approach this on how we're going to gather information and 10 the phases within the plan for getting to the final 11 recommendation that we're going to put forth for salaries 12 for this Commission. I won't say what we're going to do. 13 You know, it's basically a project management plan. 14 MR. PAVAO: I have one question: Is it our intent 15 to not only deal with the police department, but come up with 16 a plan for all departments, or are we just going to, right 17 now, just isolate the police department? 18 CHR. ONO: No. This is the way I see it. I see our 19 responsibility as addressing all the positions that fall 20 under the County of Hawaii that are subject to this. Within 21 the course of the plan, we may -- this Commission may decide 22 to isolate certain positions to do those separately. But 23 that would be all part of what we would execute within this 24 Commission. 25 MR. PAVAO: Thank you. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 4 6 1 1 CHR. ONO: Are we okay with that? We don't need a 2 motion for that, do we, Bill? 3 MR. FRATINARDO: Mr. Brilhante, how long has this 4 Salary Commission been a commission? When was it in the 5 Charter? What year was that? 6 CHR. ONO: You don't remember? 7 MR. BRILHANTE: I may be getting older, but I'm not 8 that old. 9 MS. SELF: It looks like 1974, at least, because 10 that's the first -- under the section of the Charter. 11 MR. FRATINARDO: So as far as criteria that the 12 previous commissions used, is there any paperwork that this 13 Commission can refer to, just to kind of peruse, so we can 14 kind of get an idea of what information they were using and 15 how were they coming to a judgment to give a raise? My focus 16 is the criteria. What's the criteria that we're going to use 17 to give a salary increase. 18 MR. BRILHANTE: You know, that's -- we've had -- we 19 do have documentation from previous Salary Commissions, you 20 know, their deliberations and discussions. That's 21 information I can provide to Chair Ono. And that can be 22 disseminated, probably. 23 MR. FRATINARDO: Thank you. 24 MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. That's a great idea. If Hugh, 25 in preparing for our next meeting, has that kind of insight ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 47 1 on what this board, the people he met with before to make pay 2 raises, I think it would be very helpful, yeah. 3 MR. FRATINARDO: Because I would like to know what 4 information the previous board used to give those pay raises 5 back in 2014. Is it just an arbitrary, I'm going take an 6 apple out of the tree? I mean, I'm just going -- how do we 7 give those raises? Again, what's the criteria? 8 CHR. ONO: I'll work with the department to see what 9 best information we can get on that and have it sent out. 10 That being said, I think we're on Item Number 7 11 now, scheduling the next meeting date. Why don't we look at 12 our calendars. It should be in the month of -- we don't want 13 to wait too long. Should be within the month at the latest, 14 I would think. Does everybody have their calendars handy? 15 MR. FRATINARDO: I have a comment for the Chair. 16 We can actually schedule special meetings, from what I 17 understand. If there's something that comes up to where you 18 want to have a special meeting, it doesn't have to be set one 19 per month. If there's something you feel -- 20 CHR. ONO: Understood. And it may be that -- we may 21 have to accelerate this and possibly do much more than 22 one per month as scheduled. 23 MR. BRILHANTE: If I may, if everybody can look at 24 their folders, and there's a sheet that's printed on blue 25 paper. It's a calendar. Because one of the limitations we ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 48 1 do have to work with is the staff that works for this 2 Commission also services other commissions, the Merit Appeals 3 Board. And so we -- you know, the last thing we want to do 4 is create a scheduling conflict with the staff. 5 MR. PAVAO: Mr. Chairman, why don't we just follow 6 what was done this month, and look at the second Wednesday in 7 November. 8 CHR. ONO: Works for me. 9 MR. HIGGINS: I cannot, on that day. I'll be gone. 10 CHR. ONO: No. You can't go, wherever you're going. 11 Well, as long as -- most important thing is we have a quorum. 12 But we'd like to, of course -- 13 So Jim, what dates would work for you? 14 MR. HIGGINS: Well, the rest of October, no 15 problem. Can make any day. 16 MR. FRATINARDO: I'm all for doing another -- I'm 17 not going off island for the rest of the month, so I'm ready 18 to put my extra hours into this. I don't want to kick the 19 can down the road anymore. I think it's something we 20 should -- I should do. I volunteered for this position, so 21 I'll be more than willing to put the work in. 22 CHR. ONO: Today's the 11th. How about November, 23 the first week in November. We can't use this place if the 24 county council is having a meeting, right? They're having 25 meetings on the 1st and 2nd, so . . . ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 49 1 MR. BRILHANTE: That's correct. 2 MR. FRATINARDO: Can we go the 25th of October? 3 CHR. ONO: Checking, checking. 4 MR. BRILHANTE: It was just communicated to me that 5 there's a MAB meeting scheduled for the 18th. So I'm not 6 sure if the staff would be able to -- meeting on the 25th. 7 So I recommend maybe subsequent, the following week, the week 8 of October 30th through the 3rd. If we could -- maybe those 9 days are available, or a Monday, Tuesday. 10 MR. FRATINARDO: I'm okay with that. 11 MR. HIGGINS: I'm good. 12 CHR. ONO: You pick Monday or Tuesday, the 30th or 13 the 31st. The 31st, you have to come dressed appropriately. 14 MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. 15 CHR. ONO: And I see most of us are already. 16 How about Monday? 17 MR. FRATINARDO: Fine with me. 18 CHR. ONO: Monday the 30th. 19 MR. FRATINARDO: Fine. 20 MS. SELF: Is the joint planning commission meeting 21 that day in here? 22 MR. HIGGINS: It's not on this schedule. 23 MS. YAMADA: You can check with their calendar to 24 confirm that it is available. 25 CHR. ONO: And we have to use this room. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 50 1 MR. BRILHANTE: No. There's other rooms that we 2 might be able to use. 3 CHR. ONO: This is easier to use because it's set 4 up already, right? 5 MR. BRILHANTE: Yeah. We can look at -- there's 6 other facilities that we use to conduct Commission meetings. 7 There's -- 8 CHR. ONO: 31st is -- 31st work? 9 MS. YAMADA: It's been reserved by the County 10 Clerk's office that day. 11 CHR. ONO: We need more rooms. So there was 12 something scheduled on the 30th, and something scheduled on 13 the 31st. November the 6th. 14 MR. HIGGINS: Can. 15 CHR. ONO: 6th work? 16 MR. FRATINARDO: Yeah. 17 CHR. ONO: Let's check with staff for the 6th. 18 MR. BRILHANTE: We have a Merit Appeals Board 19 meeting on the 8th. That's going to be too much of a time 20 crunch for the staff to hold the meeting on November 6th. 21 CHR. ONO: Let's hear from the staff. What dates 22 work best? 23 MR. FRATINARDO: Could we start in October? 24 MR. BRILHANTE: Preferably we'd like at least a 25 week. The staff has indicated they like a week interval ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 51 1 between the MAB meetings and the Salary Commission. So that 2 being the case, our next scheduled MAB meeting is on October 3 18th. 4 So if you allow for the next week to be the week in 5 between, then we're looking at, again, looking at the week of 6 October 30th through November 3rd. And then we have another 7 MAB meeting scheduled on November 8th. So if you give them 8 the next week, then it would be the week of November 20th 9 through the 24th. 10 CHR. ONO: So October 27th work? 11 MR. FRATINARDO: I'm great with the 27th. 12 MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. 13 MS. YAMADA: I'll check if the room's available. 14 CHR. ONO: Okay. Thanks, Glynis. And we can go 15 happy hour. It's Friday. 16 MR. FRATINARDO: I'll call the Uber. 17 CHR. ONO: We'll do it right in here. 18 MS. IKEDA: We don't need the microphone, because 19 we just talk across the table. 20 MR. BRILHANTE: Unfortunately, we do need the 21 microphone because we need to record the minutes. So we 22 need the -- we have PA systems available to us that we'd be 23 able to use, and so the main priority is the availability of 24 the room. Once we find out whether or not the room's 25 available, then we'll make whatever logistical arrangements ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 19 27th. 20 MS. SELF: What about the Puna Conference Room? We 21 have Puna Conference Room; we have the Aupuni Center 22 Conference Room. Are any of those available? 23 MS. YAMADA: I'd have to call the mayor's office. 24 So you'd have to provide me the date so I can call the 25 mayor's. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 52 1 we need as far as the audio requirements. 2 CHR. ONO: So summarizing, the latest thing we're 3 going to look at is the meeting on the 27th. And as part of 4 that, we'll prepare an agenda. We'll attempt to get the 5 information from past Salary Commissions and how they might 6 have put together their plan. 7 And, then at the same time, I'll draft up a plan 8 approach on going through this process. 9 MR. FRATINARDO: I'm going -- the acronym is PIG, 10 as Permitted Interaction Group. 11 CHR. ONO: PIG. Did you create that? 12 MR. FRATINARDO: No. That's for the OIP, Office of 13 Information Practices. And it refers to the PIG numerous 14 times. 15 CHR. ONO: It's not nice to say with the police 16 commissioner in here. 17 Glynis, how we looking on that date? 18 MS. YAMADA: The council will be in here on the 19 27th. 20 MS. SELF: What about the Puna Conference Room? We 21 have Puna Conference Room; we have the Aupuni Center 22 Conference Room. Are any of those available? 23 MS. YAMADA: I'd have to call the mayor's office. 24 So you'd have to provide me the date so I can call the 25 mayor's. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 53 1 1 MS. SELF: I mean, they have to be able to meet. 2 There has to be some place for them to meet. I mean, 3 I don't know that it would be appropriate for them to use 4 our conference room, corp. counsel, but that's also a 5 possibility if they can't find anything else. But I 6 guess -- so you guys were looking at the 27th, right? 7 MR. FRATINARDO: You know, the last meeting that 8 this Board, this Commission, had was back in January. And I 9 really think that we owe it to the County of Hawaii that we 10 work our butts off to come up with just the information, the 11 criteria. We need to get the ball rolling. 12 Because it reflects on us as a County. We're part 13 of the government now, so we need to work on this. We are 14 the government of Hawaii, so now we need to start working on 15 this salary -- on the salaries for this County. We need to 16 at least know what it's going to cost. 17 And I'm, like I said, I'm willing to work five days 18 a week, seven days, whatever time it takes I'll work and meet 19 however many times a month to do it. That's my commitment. 20 MR. BRILHANTE: That being said, as long as 21 everybody's agreeing on the date, I'm sure we can find a 22 location. And we can -- you know, when we post the agenda, 23 we'll be able to identify the location at that time. 24 So it wouldn't be a Sunshine Law violation for us just to set 25 the date and time. And then we'll subsequently set the ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 54 1 location. 2 MR. FRATINARDO: Is that a twenty-four hour period 3 you need, working days? 4 MR. BRILHANTE: Six days prior. 5 MR. FRATINARDO: Six days. 6 CHR. ONO: 27th okay?Okay. That being said, the 7 meeting date would be Friday, October 27th. Place to be 8 determined. 9 One other question. You know, for our 10 commissioners that come from -- I would think -- ten o'clock 11 work fine with everybody? 12 MR. HIGGINS: Sure. 13 CHR. ONO: Okay. Lost my train of thought again. 14 Oh, what I wanted to ask is I know that we have 15 remote sites, so are we able to conduct these Commission 16 meetings with people out of Kona or . . . ? 17 MR. BRILHANTE: Again, that limits our meeting room 18 availability. You know, there's only certain locations that 19 afford that. 20 CHR. ONO: Okay. Well, for the present time, until 21 we hear otherwise, we'll just plan on meeting here, if that's 22 okay with the group. 23 Any closing comments from any of the Commissioners? 24 MR. DOW: I have a couple of comments. In 25 that transcript of the meeting from January, there was quite ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 55 1 a lot of references to the past work of this Commission and 2 the criteria that were used to rank and classify departments 3 in our government and develop an executive pay plan which 4 evidently then was abandoned. 5 But it looks like, as a residual of that, there are 6 classifications and rankings of departments still in 7 existence. If you look at the pay schedule of all the 8 departments, you'll see them grouped. Directors making the 9 same salary. Another thing -- so I guess some of the 10 information might be in records at HR. 11 Another comment I have, a lot of our work and the 12 deficiencies that exist right now are as a result of our 13 Commission work not keeping up with collective bargaining. 14 And what's pushing these salaries, these salary requirements 15 right now, is collective bargaining. 16 Long-time employees, say twenty-five years, who've 17 climbed up a ladder, compounding pay raises year after year 18 as a result of really handsome salaries for these middle 19 managers that are in the collective bargaining. And we are 20 required by Charter to see that our executive managers stay 21 ahead of that. I mean, we have no choice. Says right there 22 in the law that that's what we're going to do. 23 So we're all pushed by collective bargaining, when 24 you come right down to it. And it looks to me like right now 25 we have over a dozen departments where the salary is inverted ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 56 1 because this Commission has not acted in the last three years 2 to stay ahead of collective bargaining. And it looks to me 3 like maybe a dozen or more individuals who are our executives 4 are in an inversion situation. 5 So it's incumbent on us to correct that. That's 6 the law. And if we're going to be in compliance with that, 7 we have to act. 8 CHR. ONO: Totally agree. And, therefore, it's -- you 9 know, it might be more than just using a -- looking at a 10 one-time, it might be a multi-year plan. But it doesn't 11 preclude us from taking a look at that. 12 MR. DOW: And until we get the final figures 13 on the latest bargaining, we don't know what the target is. 14 MR. FRATINARDO: I would hope that we would look at 15 a pay schedule that almost mirrors the collective bargaining, 16 as far as their step movements. I think that for us to do 17 that and then, as a Salary Commission, once we established 18 that, then we can just come back on either a yearly or 19 bi-yearly basis to tweak any details that might need to be 20 made or to have the division heads come in and testify to -- 21 at least explain to us how they might see it as working. 22 MR. BRILHANTE: Just to clarify the record, I just 23 wanted to put on just a description. It's that, you know, 24 there's generally three tiers of employees in the county. We 25 have our civil service employees, which are on this tier. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 57 1 Then we have our excluded management, which is the second 2 tier. They're not civil service. And then above them is the 3 administration, department heads, and deputies. 4 The rule that the Commissioner was referring to 5 regarding the salary structure is actually codified in the 6 Hawaii Revised Statutes. So it's a state rule. It's under 7 Section 89C-3. And that it says that: Excluded civil 8 servant employees, which is the mid-level tier of, you know, 9 our employees, their compensation shall result in no less 10 than what their collective bargaining counterparts get. 11 So collective bargaining counterparts, that bottom 12 tier, sets the tone, you know, as to what transpires, you 13 know, in the tier above them. I think the disconnect is that 14 there's no subsequent language in either the Charter or the 15 HRS that says the department heads, the administration shall 16 get no less than, you know, the excluded management. 17 And so, I think that's what's happening is 18 historically, you know, the Salary Commission meets. They 19 set a salary, you know, scale for the administration, and 20 then there's no activity, you know, since -- for example, 21 2004 -- prior to that, 2007. 22 So what happens is the collective bargaining group 23 is getting their, you know, whatever compensation they get, 24 the excluded management is getting theirs, you know, in 25 comparison to the collective bargaining, but then nothing ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 58 1 happens to the top. 2 So I think that's how the inversions, you know, 3 come about. And you're absolutely correct in that summation. 4 MR. FRATINARDO: Can you give an example as far as 5 executive management. Would that be like -- 6 MR. BRILHANTE: Executive management would be like 7 excluded management 03 position. Like what would be the 8 easiest -- the engineers at the office of the Department of 9 Environmental Management. That's your -- 10 CHR. ONO: They're typically -- 11 MR. BRILHANTE: -- supervisor. 12 CHR. ONO: -- division heads -- 13 MR. FRATINARDO: Division heads, like with the 14 police, might be an assistant police chief or -- 15 MR. BRILHANTE: Would be like assistant police 16 chief or a major or . . . 17 MR. FRATINARDO: Thank you. 18 MR. HIGGINS: Mr. Brilhante, I was remiss in not 19 doing my homework on what you just referred to. I was not 20 aware of the fact that we're so dependent on the union 21 contracts for that middle management that you're talking 22 about, which seems to eliminate a great reason, maybe, for 23 this Salary Commission. Because, basically, if that's the 24 case, then what we're really dealing with is the upper level. 25 Is that -- ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 59 1 MR. BRILHANTE: That's absolutely correct. 2 MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. 3 MR. BRILHANTE: The Salary Commission's task is 4 specifically to set the salaries for the administration, 5 whether it be department heads, deputies, mayor and his, you 6 know, the administrative staff. 7 MR. HIGGINS: So maybe we're over -complicating this 8 thing then. You know, if a great deal of -- we know what the 9 base is already, then should we be going through all these, 10 dancing through hoops and getting all this information if we 11 know what the base is already? We're kind of, we're locked in, 12 by statute to do it. 13 MR. FRATINARDO: There are people in the Hawaii 14 County Police Department right now, for example, that are 15 making a lot more money than what the police chief is. So I 16 think one of the criteria we need to look at is what is the 17 most -- and if we do it department by department, what or who 18 is the most highest paid employee for that department that's 19 not a director. And then we need to base it off of that 20 salary. 21 So like in Section 13-28, compensation, Salary 22 Commission, in Section D: The Commission shall review and 23 compensate all county elected officials and appointed and 24 deputy directors so that their total salaries and benefits -- 25 so now we're not just talking salary; we're talking benefits. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 60 1 So is that benefit a car allowance? -- have a reasonable 2 relationship to compensation in the public and private 3 sectors. The Salary Commission shall consult with those 4 boards and commissions which have appointing authority for 5 department heads. 6 So, like, if I want to have any kind of -- if I want 7 to have any type of interaction with that division, I will go 8 to, example, speak with the chairman of the police commission 9 and request from him. Would that be . . . ? 10 MR. BRILHANTE: I believe that's a guideline. That 11 option is available to you. You don't have to, but that 12 option is available. 13 MR. FRATINARDO: It makes it easy to follow the 14 law. 15 MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. The other question I would 16 have is that it says specifically the private sector as well. 17 So in previous commissions, Salary Commissions, did they do 18 that? And should we be doing that? And who's going to do 19 that, to go out and figure out what the private sector offers 20 in comparison? 21 MR. FRATINARDO: Well, you know, there's been 22 several resignations from the County division heads that have 23 left. I'm curious to find out, did they leave because they 24 weren't being paid comparable to what they could get in the 25 civilian sector? Like for example, Collins Tomei resigned. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 61 1 I don't know if he resigned because he wasn't getting paid -- 2 if it wasn't equitable to what he would be getting if he 3 worked in a bank. I mean, he was getting ninety-nine 4 thousand a year, according to the pay schedule. 5 MS. SELF: In your materials for today, you have -- 6 you've already been discussing this, but I don't think you 7 guys have been looking at this. This is the pay schedule 8 comparing the highest paid employees compared to the director 9 of the -- 10 MR. HIGGINS: Which one of these folders is it in? 11 MR. BRILHANTE: It's the red folder, and it's 12 tabbed: Review of existing compensation plan. And it's page 13 1 of that. 14 MR. FRATINARDO: So for example, I was using police 15 earlier. 16 MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. 17 MR. FRATINARDO: The senior assistant police chief, 18 or the senior officer in that department, is making roughly, 19 just salary, $16,000 more than the chief is making per year, 20 as an example. And we're talking -- so the criteria we have 21 to look at as the island as a whole, and I might be thinking 22 way out of the box, but we're an island in the Pacific that 23 is extremely strategic especially what's going on lately with 24 Korea. 25 So when we would look at criteria for giving these ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 62 1 pay raises, like I was saying earlier, how do we prioritize 2 who is getting pay raises first? Or are we going to just 3 lump it all together as one structure and go that route? So 4 there's several ways we can look at it. We're mandated. 5 MR. DOW: We're mandated to give these raises 6 when a salary inversion exists. And it exists in multiple 7 departments. So we're not just talking about the police 8 department. Probably, I don't know, maybe a dozen 9 departments -- 10 MR. FRATINARDO: Yeah. And I was just using -- 11 MR. DOW: -- where this is the case -- 12 MR. FRATINARDO: -- that as an example. 13 MR. DOW: -- or we're getting very close to 14 going over that threshold. Fire department's mighty close 15 right now. 16 MR. PAVAO: Can I ask a question? Maybe my 17 question is for Amy. I understand the part where the Charter 18 says, comparable to private sector. But there's no place in 19 the Charter that says we got to take care of inversions, 20 right? There's no place in the charter that says department 21 head has to be paid more than the highest paid civil servant. 22 MR. DOW: Yes, Sir. It's in the Charter. 23 MR. PAVAO: Inversions are in the Charter? It is? 24 MS. SELF: I'm looking at the Charter right now. 25 MR. PAVAO: I know it says comparable to private ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 63 1 sector, but I didn't see anything about that the department 2 head has to be making more than the highest paid civil 3 servant. 4 MR. FRATINARDO: It says, in Section D again: The 5 Commission shall review and compensate all County elected 6 officials and appointed directors and deputy directors so 7 that their total salaries and benefits have a reasonable 8 relationship to compensation in the public and private 9 sectors. The Salary Commission shall consult with those 10 boards and commissions which have appointing authority for 11 department heads. 12 MR. PAVAO: So it says, in public sector? 13 MR. FRATINARDO: Yes, Sir. This is the last page 14 in your red binder. 15 MR. PAVAO: Okay. Thank you. 16 MR. FRATINARDO: You're welcome. 17 MS. IKEDA: Can I ask, Mr. Brilhante, when we do 18 this review, are we subject to putting time tables on it 19 saying that we came up with these specifications, but they 20 should be for a period of time, like for a period of five 21 years or ten years that this, what we put in place, is to be 22 effective for that length of time? 23 MR. BRILHANTE: You know, that's a good question. 24 And it's purely at the discretion of the Salary Commission. 25 You have autonomy whether to do it that way. Or the ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 64 1 previous Salary Commission chose not to, you know, back in 2 2014. 3 And I think, you know, some consideration should be 4 given. Because I think part of the reason, when you don't 5 put benchmarks or you don't put any vehicle that allows the 6 salaries to move in the same direction as their subordinates, 7 you kind of exacerbate the problem with inversion or, you 8 know, those type of issues. 9 MR. FRATINARDO: Could I speak openly about if 10 someone was to take civil action against the County for not 11 getting a pay raise, or should we wait until -- if we have 12 the Charter. It says, we, as the Salary Commission, have to 13 give these pay raises, and it needs to be equitable. Can a 14 division head or assistant division head bring suit against 15 the County if they're not getting a pay raise? 16 MR. BRILHANTE: Well, you know, the language of the 17 Charter says that they shall have salaries and benefits that 18 has a reasonable relationship. So I guess, you know, the 19 answer to that question would be what's the interpretation of 20 reasonable. 21 MR. FRATINARDO: So even -- we would look at the 22 salary inversions, like Mr. Dow is saying -- 23 MR. BRILHANTE: Maybe that's one tool that you can 24 use. I would recommend that if you do establish a salary 25 schedule, that you rely upon several tools, you know, so that ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 65 1 it's -- your decision is not just arbitrary. You know, you 2 actually looked at some specific items and you had discussion 3 and consideration, you know, for the record. 4 But you know, at the end of the day, I can't say 5 whether or not a deputy or a department head is going to feel 6 that they've been slighted. And there's a mechanism in the 7 County, it's through the Internal Complaint Procedure, if 8 somebody feels like that they weren't properly -- they're not 9 being properly compensated. 10 MR. FRATINARDO: Thank you. 11 CHR. ONO: Anyway, I do see us as having an 12 opportunity to develop a pretty comprehensive plan to address 13 not only the near term, but future too. 14 So, anyway, our next meeting will be on Friday the 15 27th, and we're going to be in the Puna Conference Room. 16 And, Glynis, I guess, sent out the instructions on 17 where that might be. Oh, it's right there. Oh, it's not in 18 Puna. 19 Is there any additional discussion? Otherwise, I 20 entertain a motion to adjourn. 21 MR. DOW: I want to make one more comment. 22 The Hawaii State Statutes get even more explicit, and that 23 was part of the handout. Section 89C-3, under adjustments 24 for excluded civil service employees, subsection (2): Ensure 25 that adjustments for excluded civil service employees result ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 66 1 in compensation and benefit packages that are at least equal 2 to the compensation and benefit packages provided under 3 collective bargaining agreements for counterparts and 4 subordinates within the employer's 5 jurisdiction. Hawaii State Law (SEE ATT. C). 6 MR. HIGGINS: Clears it up. 7 MR. FRATINARDO: So like I was going back real 8 fast, we're going to kick the can down the road further, or 9 are we going to sacrifice now instead of having to sacrifice 10 more later. So all this information we've got to determine 11 as far as criteria. 12 CHR. ONO: Yeah. Our preference is to make it as 13 comprehensive now as we can. And we see the problems that 14 have occurred with previous Salary Commissions, and their 15 findings have been probably short-term in thinking. It's 16 happening all over, not only here, but at the state level 17 too. 18 MR. PAVAO: Just a comment. I was in government 19 for about forty years. And as long as I remember, this has 20 been a problem. So it's not a new problem. It's always been 21 there. 22 CHR. ONO: Okay. With that, entertain a motion to 23 adjourn. All those in favor say aye. 24 VOICE VOTE BY COMMISSIONERS: Ayes - 6. 25 CHR. ONO: Okay. See you next time. Meeting ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 67 1 adjourned. 2 Who made the motion to adjourn. 3 MR. BRILHANTE: Florence made the motion, and 4 Milton Pavao seconded it. 5 (Meeting adjourned at 11:47 a.m.) 6 7 --000-- 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 STATE OF HAWAII COUNTY OF HAWAII ss. I, KURT FAUT, CSR 418, a Certified Court Reporter in the State of Hawaii, do hereby certify that the foregoing pages are a true and correct transcription of the stenographic notes taken at the meeting had in the above matter. Dated this 14th day of October, 2017. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICE (808) 933-9800 68 Mr. Kurt Faut, Certified Court Reporter, transcribed the aforementioned proceedings of the Salary Commission at its meeting held on October 11, 2017. Glynis Yamada, Secretary, Salary Commission, had incorporated some minor formatting/housekeeping revisions throughout the transcript (i.e. identifying "MR. ONO" as "CHR. ONO"). Respectfully Submitted, Glynis Yamada, Secretary APPROVED: Hugh Y. Ono, P. E., Chair Salary Commission PUBLIC STATEMENT REGISTRATION FORM SALARY COMMISSION COUNTY OF HAWAII HILO, HAWAII Date: "/ D C 1 / / (Please print clearly) Support Oppose X Comment Please list the item(s)you will be speaking on: Communication No. / — / OR Subject/Topic: RL1 Lf S1 ` L j\ A E S C Dmf' Gl-�Iii Name: � � �—o�� �^ c-V -s Representing: FO L C`- L 0 M /-I! S9i 0 Al Vl (Please indicate whether Self or Organization) ***For official use only: Speaker No. ��v os-----•. Guy Schutte.Chair Harry Kim o� '% =''' ��`• Keith Morioka.Vice Chair Mayor COUNT Y OF HAWAII ` Arthur Buckman. Member HUMi= r'URCES Carl Carlson,Member it Okabe Wayne De Luz,Member aging DirectorRobert Gomes.Sr.. Member 1016 DEC 22 AA • ? �'.- L. J' ` . TE pp'Hl••�'='I Peter Hendricks, Member Jak Hu. Member COUNTY OF HAWAII Paul Paiva, Member Police Commission Aupuni Center 101 Pauahi Street, Suite 9, Hilo, Hawai`i 96720 Phone: (808)932-2950 Fax: (808)932-2949 December 22, 2016 Ms. Pudding Lassiter Salary Commission County of Hawaii 101 Pauahi St., Ste. 2 Hilo, HI 96720 SUBJECT: EQUITABLE SALARY FOR THE POLICE CHIEF AND DEPUTY CHIEF Dear Chair Lassiter and Members of the Salary Commission: The Police Commission recently appointed a new Police Chief and confirmed a new Deputy Police Chief effective December 31, 2016. The Police Chief's annual salary is $130,818. The Deputy Police Chief's salary is $126,894. Effective January 1, 2017, their subordinate Excluded Managerial (EM) staff will receive a 3.4% pay increase. Currently, Assistant Police Chiefs have an annual salary of $141 ,311. On January 1, their annual salary will be $146,116. Majors have an annual salary of $129,252. That will increase to $133,647. EMs are also entitled to overtime compensation but not the Police Chief and Deputy Chief. Contract negotiations are now in progress, and of course, another pay increase for EMs is very likely. The Police Department is a para-military organization, and this obvious salary disparity is definitely a problem when subordinate employees get paid more than their commanders. The Police Commission respectfully request fairness when compensating the two highest ranking positions in the Police Department that are responsible for almost 600 employees across the entire County of Hawaii. We ask that the Police Chief be given a salary increase of 20% above the highest paid subordinate employee and that the Deputy Police Chief be given a salary increase of 10% above the highest paid subordinate employee. The Police Commission strongly believes that the Police Chief and Deputy Police Chief should never be paid less than their highest paid subordinate employees, and so we ask that whenever the EMs receive a salary increase, that the Police Chief and Deputy Chief receive a comparable salary increase. ATT. A SALARY COMMISSION COUNTY OF HAWAI'I Hawaii County is an Equal Opportunity Provider and Employer. Comm. No. 16-01 Date .Tannary 20_ 9017 Salary Commission December 22, 2016 Page 2 We look forward to your favorable response and look forward to meeting with you for further discussion. Sincerely, Guy Schutte Chair GS:jp cc: Malia Ho, Deputy Corporation Counsel REVISED MONTHLY CAR ALLOWANCE BY DEPARTMENT DEPARTMENTS DIRECTOR DEPUTY DIRECTOR Aging County Vehicle N/A Civil Defense County Vehicle N/A Corporation Counsel 400 -0- DEM County Vehicle County Vehicle Finance -0- -0- Fire Fire Vehicle Fire Vehicle Housing County Vehicle County Vehicle Human Resources -0- -0- IT 400 N/A Liquor 400 400 Mass Transit County Vehicle N/A Mayor 600 MD: 400 Dep. MD: County Vehicle EA's 1. 400 2. 400 3. 400 4. 400 Parks & Rec County Vehicle County Vehicle Planning 400 400 Police SHOPO Contract SHOPO Contract Prosecutors 420 420 Public Works 400 (plus Fuel) 400 (plus fuel) R & D 400 400 Water County Vehicle County Vehicle ATT. B Prepared by: WVB Requested by: MD/EA As of Date: 12/21/2016 Pae 1 of 1 Hawaii Revised Statutes (HRS) Page §89C-3 Adjustments for excluded civil service employees . (a) Each jurisdiction shall provide adjustments for its respective excluded civil service employees based on recommendations from its respective personnel director. (b) In formulating recommendations to the appropriate authority, the respective director shall : ( 1) Establish procedures that allow excluded civil service employees and employee organizations representing them to provide input on adjustments that are relevant and important to them for the director ' s approval; (2 ) Ensure that adjustments for excluded civil service employees result in compensation and benefit packages that are at least equal to the compensation and benefit packages provided under collective bargaining agreements for counterparts and subordinates within the employer ' s jurisdiction; and ( 3) Ensure that proposed adjustments are consistent with chapter 76 and equivalent or not less than adjustments provided within the employer ' s jurisdiction. EL 1978 , c 197 , pt of §2; am L 1994 , c 56, §16; am L 2000, c 253, §108; am L Sp 2005, c 2, §1] Attorney General Opinions Under this section and section 89C-2, pay may be adjusted only for excluded police officers in managerial, white-collar compensation plan; uniformity requirement applies to uniformity of pay adjustments within same class . Att . Gen . Op . 85-5 . Prov iou; A'o102 Ch0046-0 l l 5 Nczt ATT. C file:///C:/Users/gyamada/AooData/Local/Microsoft/Windows/Temoorary%20lnternet%20... 10/3/2017