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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2017-11-27 Salary Commission MinutesPage 1 BEFORE THE SALARY COMMISSION COUNTY OF HAWAII •9• TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS For the meeting had with the Salary Commission, County of Hawaii, at the Hawaii County Building, Puna Conference Room, 25 Aupuni Street, Hilo, Hawaii, commencing at 9:15 a.m. on November 27, 2017. Members of the Salary Commission: Chairman: Vice -Chair: HUGH Y. ONO, P. E. FLORENCE K. IKEDA Members: JAMES W. HIGGINS MILTON PAVAO, P.E. HAROLD D. DOW THOMAS E. FRATINARDO NELSON H. HARANO GEORGE W. CAMPBELL Human Resources: Also Present: Commission Counsel: TAKEN BEFORE: WILLIAM V. BRILHANTE, JR. EX -OFFICIO MEMBER JENNIFER SAKAMOTO JACK MATSUKAWA CRAIG MASUDA J YOSHIMOTO RICKY ROY DAMERVILLE ROBERT BECKER GLYNIS YAMADA AMY SELF, ESQ . Deputy Corporation Counsel 101 Aupuni Street Suite 325 Hilo, Hawaii 96720 KURT FAUT, CSR. NO. 418 ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 2 1 Monday, November 27, 2017 2 --000-- 3 CHR. ONO: Call the meeting to order. Let me see. 4 Why don't we start -- does anybody mind if we take something 5 out of order? Because we have our new commissioner. 6 Is that okay, Amy? 7 MS. SELF: Mm-hmm. 8 CHR. ONO: Okay. So why don't we -- we have Nelson 9 Harano here. And he's a new commissioner. So why don't we 10 do this: Why don't we reintroduce ourselves, and we'll end 11 up with Nelson. And he can tell us, you know, where he's 12 from and what he does. 13 So I'll start with -- why don't we start with you, 14 Tom, just the background thing like we did before. 15 MR. FRATINARDO: Thomas Fratinardo, for District 1, 16 retired Hawaii County Police Department and U.S. Marine 17 Corps. 18 MR. DOW: Harold Dow, I live in Kurtistown. 19 It's District 5. I'm a retired emergency physician of 20 thirty-two years. I've been in Hawaii since 198. 21 CHR. ONO: Terrific. 22 MS. IKEDA: I'm Florence Ikeda. I worked for the 23 State of Hawaii for thirty years in the Department of 24 Education. And I currently help my family's business. 25 CHR. ONO: Hugh Ono. I'm a retired state and ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 3 1 county engineer, now have my own practice. 2 MS. SELF: Deputy Corporation Counsel Amy Self. 3 I'm the attorney assigned to represent this Commission. 4 MR. PAVAO: Milton Pavao, retired from Department 5 of Water Supply after about forty years there. 6 MR. HIGGINS: Jim Higgins from the Kona side, 7 retired stock broker of forty years, classmate of the 8 chairman back in Honolulu. 9 MR. CAMPBELL: I'm George Campbell, retired from 10 Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, and I live in 11 Na'alehu. 12 CHR. ONO: Court reporter. 13 THE REPORTER: My name is Kurt. I'm the court 14 reporter. 15 CHR. ONO: Glynis. 16 MS. YAMADA: I'm Glynis, the secretary for the 17 Commission. 18 CHR. ONO: Okay. And we're going to end up with 19 Nelson. So Nelson, tell us about yourself. 20 MR. HARANO: Nelson Harano. Born and raised in 21 Kealakekua. Graduated from Konawaena. Went up to -- got my 22 undergraduate in accounting, UH Manoa. I lived and worked in 23 Honolulu for ten years, and then moved up to Seattle. I 24 worked in public accounting, started off with Touche Ross 25 before it got merged with Deloitte. I went to -- that's now ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 4 1 called the Final Four. 2 Lived up in Seattle for thirty years, moved back 3 earlier this year. And I'm a tax manager at Aloha Business 4 Services down in Kailua, Kona. I specialize in pretty much 5 everything -- individual, you know, corporate, partnerships, 6 international. You know, I've worked in both public and 7 private industry, and I'm glad that I'm able to move back 8 earlier this year. 9 And you know, living away for a number of years 10 from here, and I come back and look at the island as well as 11 the local localities, you know, just differently. Appreciate 12 the island, appreciate the island that much -- appreciate the 13 State that much more. 14 But you know, I'd come to a point in my life where 15 it's time to give back professionally as well as personally. 16 And I think this Commission is an avenue for me being able to 17 contribute back both professionally as well as personally. 18 CHR. ONO: Well, welcome back and welcome on board 19 the Commission. 20 MR. HARANO: Thank you, very much. 21 MR. PAVAO: Right on. 22 CHR. ONO: Moving on. Statements from the public. 23 We have several speakers today. Let me first start with Jack 24 Matsukawa. I believe he's with the Hawaii County Prosecutors 25 Office. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 5 1 Jack. 2 MR. MATSUKAWA: Yeah. Just for your information, 3 I'll be retiring on Thursday, after thirty-one years. But I 4 come -- it's important for me to talk to you guys. 5 CHR. ONO: You're upset because we didn't adjust 6 your salary. 7 MR. MATSUKAWA: The point is this -- I speak for 8 them. So I don't know if it's Mitch's position, anybody's 9 position, my position. I've been here for thirty-one years, 10 longer than Mitch. The only person less is Dale, Dale Ross. 11 But Mitch is in a position -- we cannot -- a raise, right, 12 would be kind of uncomfortable for him. But, you know what, 13 his raise affects us, right? That's how it works, right? 14 And I haven't really gotten a raise over ten years. Maybe 15 Mitch gave me a $50 raise. 16 But you know, what's disheartening, I'm sitting 17 next to the person, I'm going to retire, he's a police patrol 18 guy. He's telling me, I'm going to cash out my deferred, 19 because you know why? Because I get $5000 I'm going to bring 20 home. That's more than I'm going to bring home, my pension. 21 And, yeah, it's probably based because they work overtime. 22 But our overtime is not compensated. 23 When I did my murder cases like that, I don't know. 24 You ask -- being there, we living in there, you know, forty 25 hours a week easy. Because you got to spend all your nights, ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 6 1 weekends working on these cases. We do it because, like you 2 say, you want to give back to the community, yeah. But I 3 think we've been giving to the community. 4 And all, basically, we ask is a fair shake, if you 5 give us the same thing in line with the police officers. 6 Because if the police sergeant is -- even they being paid 7 just as much as me on a regular salary, because of his years, 8 that doesn't seem right. Because they're calling me two 9 o'clock in the morning, the patrol guys, asking me -- you can 10 ask Tom -- they not supposed to call for anything less than a 11 felony. 12 I get a call on a domestic violence. It's two 13 o'clock in the morning. They ask me: Oh, can you help me. 14 I have this question. I know we not supposed to call, but my 15 sergeant told me to call you. And keep in mind now, we don't 16 get paid. We on call for that one week, we don't get paid. 17 Two o'clock in the morning. It's not just a strain on me, 18 but it's a strain your family, right? 19 Think about it. You get one -and -a -half days to 20 spend with your family. You know, you're doing it for the 21 community, but you doing it your whole life as a career. And 22 all you expect, to be treated fairly. And, you know, get 23 these guys down here, how much thousands of dollars you guys 24 spend to train one prosecutor. You know the trial trainings 25 I went to get to the point where I am. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 7 1 You going to spend a lot of money on these people, 2 and they going leave. That's the practical benefit of the 3 financial part for the community. You pay them what they're 4 worth, they'll stay. You don't pay them what they're worth, 5 you get what you pay for. You know that adage. And that's 6 all I like to say. Because I know Ricky Roy picked up a lot 7 of statistics, but I just speaking from the heart. I'm 8 asking you for them. I'll be gone on Thursday, you know, and 9 I might be on the other side of the -- using all the 10 thousands of dollars against you guys. You know, that's an 11 option I got because I can be in private practice to make up 12 for my lack of pension. 13 But the thing is you got to pay these guys. Think 14 about it. These guys paid, and they got to be paid more than 15 one sergeant, the guys that been there for twenty years. You 16 know, that's ridiculous. And since I -- I can say this 17 because I'm going to be retired, so I don't have to affect 18 how my office going to feel towards my -- it's Jack Matsukawa 19 retiring is practically speaking saying to you guys. It's a 20 practical thing. 21 Again, you get what you pay for, you know. And you 22 want to keep good quality people, you want them to stay, pay 23 them. That's all. Thanks. 24 CHR. ONO: Any questions or comments for Jack? 25 MR. DOW: Can you tell me how the salaries of ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 8 1 the deputies in your office are determined? Who sets those? 2 MR. MATSUKAWA: Well, that's another problem. It 3 should be all determined by the prosecutor. He likes you; 4 you get a raise. He don't like you; you don't get a raise. 5 You know, that would be kind of nice if there was 6 some kind of standard that you could get paid. But the 7 problem is if you're not on the right side of the track, you 8 might not get the raise, even if you're a good prosecutor. 9 Couldn't even get the boot. 10 That's another thing I forgot to mention. We're 11 at -will. These guys are all protected by SHOPO. We can 12 be -- we can -- a prosecutor will have to leave if the person 13 is doing great. It's just a difference of understanding. 14 This after thirteen, fourteen years. 15 So there's no security for these guys, too. Why 16 would they want to stay? You know, we were -- Jay Kimura, 17 everything was -- you know, nobody ran, whatever, for so many 18 years. That's probably why he stayed so long. Because you 19 never think you had that problem of possibly getting fired 20 for -- because you don't -- you disagree with policies, 21 right? 22 So but prosecution's the kind of case where you 23 want to be able to have somebody stay there, longevity, 24 without thinking he going to leave because I disagree. I don't 25 think we should prosecute this way and -- you know, and be ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 9 1 free to express opinions. But that is not, so they should be 2 compensated for that, the fact that you -- and you doing your 3 trial at -will, you know. So that's -- you have another? I 4 ready for questions. You have any questions? I got plenty 5 answers. 6 MR. PAVAO: I'm just glad, on Thursday, you going 7 be bulletproof. 8 MR. MATSUKAWA: Well, I was going another three 9 years. But because I couldn't retire because the pay was so 10 small, I had to wait at least -- not -- see, what happens, I 11 got my pension and I got my -- I save up all my vacation, 12 which I never took, I using it to supplement me until I can 13 get Social Security, 62. Then I don't have to worry. 14 But I've been speaking up because I think these 15 people, you got to pay them what they're worth. That's the 16 bottom line. 17 MR. FRATINARDO: I have a question, Jack. Is there 18 a sense among staff that they're kind of waiting to see 19 what's going to happen for the Salary Commission? 20 MR. MATSUKAWA: Maybe just Terry back there. 21 Because Terry might, end of the year, retire too, but, you 22 know. 23 MR. FRATINARDO: To see whether it will affect 24 retention at the prosecutor's office? 25 MR. MATSUKAWA: Yeah. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 10 1 MR. FRATINARDO: So it'll definitely, it'll have an 2 effect. 3 MR. MATSUKAWA: Yeah, at least in one perspective. 4 MR. FRATINARDO: And we're talking about people 5 that have trial experience? 6 MR. MATSUKAWA: Right. Well, at least one person. 7 I don't know about anybody else. Just Terry, that I know of. 8 MR. FRATINARDO: Thank you. 9 CHR. ONO: Anything else? Okay. Thank you, Jack. 10 Next speaker is Craig Masuda, representing himself. 11 MR. MASUDA: Good morning, Chairman. Good morning, 12 members of the Commission. 13 As I've told you before, and Jack has talked about, 14 and you folks have all the submissions there from the other 15 counties, your County prosecutors and corporation counsels 16 are the lowest paid in the State. Someone has to be the 17 bottom, but that's not something to achieve for. 18 Jack brought up something that I neglected to bring 19 up last time, too, is that when you're on call, there is no 20 compensation. When I was the Drug Task Force Deputy from 21 194 -- yeah, Jack was the first one -- so like '94 to 2001, 22 unlike the regular rotation, you carry the drug pager 23 24 hours a day, all year long. There's no other 24 compensation. Now with them, corporation counsel, from as of 25 September 11th at 4:28 in the morning, I was assigned to ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 11 1 Civil Defense. Okay. That's September 11th. 2 From then on I've had Civil Defense duty all the 3 time I've been in corporation counsel. Now that I'm back, I 4 have it again. Again, you're on standby 24 hours a day, all 5 year long. Only when you're on vacation and you're off 6 island and you cannot respond within twenty minutes, that's 7 the only time you're off. And then somebody else picks it 8 up. 9 Other than that, you're on call 24 hours a day. 10 That means your phone is right by your head. Anytime you get 11 a text alert, even if it's the nice police department doing 12 their duty and telling you that, yes, it's raining, and Bay 13 Front is closed. It goes off at two o'clock in the morning. 14 You wake up, you get the call. 15 So there's a lot of uncompensated time that your 16 attorneys do that other counties, I don't think they follow 17 the same things. They have a larger staff and they have more 18 people who are dedicated for 24-hour service. So that's it. 19 If you have any questions? 20 CHR. ONO: Any questions of Jay or any comments? 21 MR. HARANO: Jay, you are on attorney? 22 MR. MASUDA: Yes. 23 MR. HARANO: Okay. 24 MR. MASUDA: I was with the prosecutor's office -- 25 CHR. ONO: Jay is over there. I meant Craig. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 12 1 MR. MASUDA: Yeah. 2 CHR. ONO: I knew what I was talking about. 3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You just came back to 4 Hawaii. 5 MR. MASUDA: Yeah. I was a prosecutor for about 6 fourteen years or so. And I've been corporation counsel for 7 about, yeah, about fifteen, sixteen years. 8 MR. HARANO: Okay. 9 MR. MASUDA: So as far as the question of, well, 10 what you folks do have an effect on whether people stay or 11 not, actually, yeah, it will. What you guys did at the last 12 meeting, and you folks gave a positive message. When I 13 talked of hope last time, you folks achieved that. You do 14 have hope. Look how many people you have testify now. 15 Because now you have hope. 16 With the hope, though, comes responsibility to 17 follow through. So that's there. 18 MR. DOW: Is there any way of taking 19 favoritism, some of the favoritism decisions out of raises 20 for deputies so that if we give adequate pay to the 21 prosecutor or the corporation counsel, we have some idea that 22 deputies will also receive proper raises? 23 MR. MASUDA: What you bringing up for the newer 24 council, Commission people, is that by ordinance we are paid 25 ninety percent. The maximum you can pay is ninety percent; ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 13 1 the minimum is fifty percent of what either the corporation 2 counsel or the prosecutor makes. 3 As far as establishing a set level of pay, you 4 could do that at the county council level, not at the 5 Commission level. You can establish -- like Maui, I believe, 6 has their ordinance established by years of service and then 7 the pay. In that situation -- 8 MR. DOW: We received a copy of that 9 ordinance. 10 MR. MASUDA: Yeah. In that decision, however, does 11 it have an effect? Yeah. Because your option is you make 12 that pay or you're gone. So, you're held to the standard or 13 you're gone. As Jack said, we all serve at -will. So, either 14 way, but that's going to be a council decision, not a 15 decision that the Commission can make. 16 MR. DOW: Has anyone taken that to the 17 council? 18 MR. MASUDA: I don't know. I don't believe so. 19 As far as the -- see, I came in in 2001. During that time 20 period I don't believe that was ever brought up. Thank you. 21 MR. PAVAO: A question. In your mind, and maybe 22 Jack, too, in your mind, based on the number of cases, based 23 on complexity, what island would you say you're most 24 comparable to? Just for reference. 25 MR. MASUDA: It's different when you're speaking of ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 14 1 prosecutors and corporation counsel. Depends. Honolulu, of 2 course, has the most of each in terms of bodies. In terms of 3 complexity, I would say for corporation counsel, because we 4 have so few bodies, but we have such a big area, with that 5 big area comes a whole other diverse set of issues that other 6 places doesn't have. I mean, you know, for water, right, 7 like we have for water. Yes. We have less population, but 8 to transmit that water to the population, a big difference. 9 MR. MATSUKAWA: I don't know numbers, 'cause I 10 don't keep track. But the complexity of the crimes, I can -- 11 like the type of crimes we get. So you get a murder -- 12 unbelievable within the last six years how much murder cases 13 we got. 14 Now, when you get murder cases, a lot of times you 15 no more suspects, or you just get the forensic evidence. So 16 you got to know DNA, you got to know gunshot, you got to know 17 multiple other things, biochemical, I mean the kinetics, the 18 way the body is, to recreate the crime. 19 The more complex the crime, it's the more type of 20 education you need. So, that's what we're talking about. You 21 know the service that we go to, DNA training like that, a lot 22 of deputies get that. And if they leave, that's not 23 something easily replaced, or even the experience of laying 24 the foundation. 25 MR. PAVAO: No. I guess what I was asking was what ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 15 1 island would you think be more comparable to as far as -- I 2 know the size makes a big difference on the Big Island 3 relative to the rest of the islands. But in terms of 4 complexity, in terms of the number of cases, in terms of, 5 like Craig said, staff . . . 6 MR. MASUDA: Probably be Maui. Certainly not 7 Kauai. Kauai is too few of everything, all between. 8 Honolulu, you don't have the number of staff nor the number 9 of cases, just because of population. 10 MR. PAVAO: So in your mind, would be Maui? 11 MR. MASUDA: Would be more like Maui. And in case 12 you're wondering, every time Jack sits down -- I've known 13 Jack for over thirty years. So when he puts his coffee cup 14 down and he starts talking, everybody over here who knows 15 Jack, everybody gets nervous if he going knock over that cup. 16 CHR. ONO: Any other questions? Let me add this 17 then. I was going to wait 'til the end. But there's a 18 general consensus among this Salary Commission, which 19 occurred at the last meeting, that we're going to split this 20 deliberation of what to do with the salaries into two pieces. 21 One is, increment one, in which we intend to take 22 care of the deficiencies right away. And the other one is to 23 look at what happens in the long term, you know, after the -- 24 toward the beginning of the next fiscal year or when these 25 new pay raises take effect. We're talking about the ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 16 1 collective bargaining ones. 2 I just wanted to add that in. That's -- Nelson 3 doesn't have the privilege of being here before. 4 But, Nelson, that's kind of like where we stood as 5 of the last meeting. Okay. 6 MR. MASUDA: I want to thank you. Because that 7 really boosts morale. And at least we know that there's 8 people in the community looking out for us. So, the hope is 9 there. Thank you. 10 MR. PAVAO: And I think, one other thing too, I 11 think, because of what -- I think Jack hit it on the head as 12 far as, you know, the incentive for people to stay. And you 13 did, too. 14 And because of that inequity, with such low pay and 15 the desire to retain good people, I don't know about the rest 16 of the commissioners, but I think that type of situation 17 should be a priority, too, because we certainly don't want to 18 lose people that have been trained and people with experience 19 because of pay. So, I think that should be our priority is to 20 maintain the well-trained people that we do have to protect 21 our community. 22 MR. MASUDA: Thank you. 23 CHR. ONO: Thank you, Craig. 24 Next speaker. J. 25 You're not Craig. You're J. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 17 1 MR. YOSHIMOTO: Good morning, Commission members. 2 Yeah, my name is J Yoshimoto, currently at deputy 3 corporation counsel, and here on vacation at this moment. 4 First of all, I want to thank each and every one of 5 you for your service to the public, to this Commission. 6 Please note that, as you know, this is a very important 7 function that this Commission serves. 8 What I heard just now from Jack and Craig I concur 9 with. The message is really simple to me. It's about being 10 fair to the people that serve the County. These are people 11 that -- positions that don't have any, really, bargaining 12 rights. So the Commission is the main vehicle in which to 13 appropriately compensate people. 14 So the message, I think, is really simple. I think 15 the Commission is on the right track, from what I just heard, 16 to fairly compensate the appointed people. And I also agree 17 that Maui is, I would say, the best example of what we would 18 need to, not need, but where we are at, as far as salary 19 composition. We should be there. I think that's a good 20 starting point. 21 You know, when you talk about the complexities of 22 the job, I think Craig mentioned that Civil Defense, they 23 have a multitude of issues, we all know. We're familiar with 24 volcanoes, with hurricanes, with floods, and things like 25 that. So you know, if you take that into consideration, I ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 18 1 think we're even far more complex. 2 And I don't want to comment on the Maui situation 3 because I don't know their situation intimately. But I can 4 tell you that our office works hard. I think we could still 5 have more staff. But you know, we'll always do the best we 6 can with what we have. 7 Basically, what you have, people in the office are 8 good people. You hear stories about people staying on for a 9 number of years because they're committed to the County, 10 they're committed to the community. And it's something that 11 this Commission, I know, takes into consideration in its 12 deliberation and in being fair. So I thank you. 13 CHR. ONO: Any questions or comments of J? 14 MS. IKEDA: Okay. I just want to ask: The 15 positions for corporation counsel and prosecutors is actually 16 determined by the council, is that correct, and then we fund 17 or determine what they would be paid? 18 MR. YOSHIMOTO: You're talking about the heads or 19 the deputies? 20 MS. IKEDA: No. The deputies, for positions at the 21 corporation counsel and prosecutors, the amount of positions. 22 Say for instance -- 23 MR. YOSHIMOTO: Oh, yes. 24 MS. IKEDA: -- corporation counsel had ten -- 25 MR. YOSHIMOTO: Oh, yes, yes, right. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 19 1 MS. IKEDA: -- but then council agrees to put five 2 more and makes fifteen. But that is determined by council. 3 MR. YOSHIMOTO: Right. That's a budgetary, yes. 4 MS. IKEDA: Thank you. 5 MR. FRATINARDO: Mr. Yoshimura(sic), could you -- 6 could it be suggested -- because I think that we're more in 7 between Oahu and Maui, only because of the military presence 8 on our island. I don't think people actually see the amount 9 of military operations that occur on this island and how it 10 can actually affect the back -and -forth between the civilian 11 authorities and the military authorities. 12 So maybe because of that, considering that, with 13 the amount of military traffic that we have on this island 14 and how there are investigations that cross over into the 15 military with the prosecutor's office and how litigation might 16 cross over into the military realm with the corporation 17 counsel's office, maybe we could -- would you maybe consider 18 it might be more between Maui and Oahu rather than -- 19 MR. YOSHIMOTO: Yeah, yeah. 20 MR. FRATINARDO: -- equal with Maui? And that's 21 why I think it's more between -- Oah'u, then the Big Island, 22 then Maui. 23 MR. YOSHIMOTO: I think that's a very fair 24 statement. Because, actually, when you think about the other 25 issues that we're familiar with, you know, that's been ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 20 1 covered by the news, right -- you mentioned military. And I 2 could go on and on about other issues that Maui may not have. 3 But Oahu is certainly in its own league, I think. So that's 4 like the top end. But yeah, I would believe that's a very 5 fair statement to make. 6 MR. FRATINARDO: Thank you. 7 CHR. ONO: Anything else? And just for your 8 information, J is a former councilman and former chair of 9 the Hawaii County Council, so he knows a lot. 10 Thank you, J. 11 MR. YOSHIMOTO: Thank you. 12 CHR. ONO: Next we have Ricky Damerville. 13 Am I pronouncing that correctly? 14 MR. DAMERVILLE: Which part? The Damerville? 15 CHR. ONO: Yeah. 16 MR. DAMERVILLE: I've been called dammit-ville, 17 dammit-town. I answer to all of them. And my first name is 18 Ricky Roy. Don't blame me. Blame my mother. 19 I'm speaking on my own behalf. I came to the 20 practice of law late. I had a career before then. I was a 21 chief petty officer in the United States Navy. And they told 22 me my next assignment was CINCPACFLT. And I told them, no 23 way. I'll just be making coffee for somebody. I got 24 sixty-nine people working for me here. If you send me to 25 Hawaii, I'll get out. They said, well, you're a lifer now. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 21 1 You'll go where we send you. 2 And so I got out, and here I am. God is some -- 3 works in mysterious ways. I'm older than Jack. I think if 4 you gave Jack a pay raise, I think we might be able to 5 persuade him to stay. I retired from the prosecutor's office 6 here in 2012 and became basically a supernumerary. Which 7 means if somebody quits, somebody gets fired, somebody goes 8 out on military duty, one of whom is here, I get called for 9 up to eighty-nine days. 10 Now, I'm getting called up for eighty-nine days 11 because Jack says he's going to retire on November 30. So if 12 you see me a lot, it means there's some transition going on 13 in the prosecutor's office. 14 The primary reason I'm here is to address a little 15 bit of history because you're Commission members, but you 16 weren't Commission members back in the '80s, you weren't 17 Commission members in the '90s. So a lot of these things 18 kind of repeat themselves. 19 In the late '80s, the situation was so dire in the 20 prosecutors office -- and Jack was there, so he can 21 confirm -- we had four openings at the time that we only had 22 about twenty attorneys at that time, I think. And the 23 situation was so dire because the salaries were so low that 24 to placate those of us who were thinking about leaving, 25 because we didn't want to pick up all these different case ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 22 1 loads, Charlene Iboshi said, well, listen, we're going to 2 advertise nationally. And we did. We advertised nationally 3 for four positions, and for four vacancies we got three 4 applicants. 5 That doesn't mean that those applicants weren't 6 good. But one thing I remember in particular is the first 7 and I think the only interview that I ever sat in on was a 8 gentleman by the name of Donald Davidson, who we eventually 9 hired and became a very good lawyer for us. But during the 10 interview, Charlene Iboshi asked the standard question of, 11 given all the qualified applicants that we have, why should 12 we hire you? And I'm like, uh, because he's breathing and 13 has a bar license. That's good enough for me. That's the 14 only one that she asked me to sit in after that. 15 Every time that we go through this process, the 16 natural reaction is to say, well, what's Kauai getting, what 17 is Maui getting, what is Oahu getting, and how do we compare? 18 What we get from the public is that we are a poor County, 19 and we can't afford it. And basically my instincts say, 20 yeah, that's true. We are a poor County, relative to some of 21 the other counties. And we can't afford big bucks. 22 I'm here to suggest a different type of process 23 than just trying to say we're more like Maui than we are like 24 Oahu than we are like Kauai. 25 In 2008, which is a significant date for most of ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 23 1 the people in this room because 2008's the last pay raise we 2 got, in 2008, the legislature for the State of Washington 3 said that if the legislature finds that the responsibilities 4 and decisions required of the elected prosecuting attorney 5 are essentially the same in every county within Washington 6 State, from the decision to seek the death penalty in an 7 aggravated murder case to the decision not to prosecute but 8 refer an offender to drug court, from the decision to pursue 9 child rape charges based solely upon the testimony of the 10 child to a decision to divert juvenile offenders out of the 11 justice system - therefore, the legislature finds that the 12 elected prosecuting attorneys need to exercise the same level 13 of skill and experience in the least populous county as in 14 the most populous. 15 The legislature finds that the salary of the 16 elected county prosecuting attorney should be tied to that of 17 the superior court judge. This furthers the state's interest 18 and responsibilities under the state constitution, and it's 19 consistent with the current practice of several counties in 20 Washington State, the practices of several other states and 21 the National District Attorneys Association national 22 standard. 23 The national standard for the National District 24 Attorneys Association is that the salary of your chief 25 elected prosecutor should be the same as your general ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 24 1 jurisdiction trial court, which would be the circuit court 2 judge here. 3 Now, what they did in the legislature in Washington 4 is they recognized that most prosecuting attorneys wear two 5 hats. They have some civil functions, but mostly they are 6 representing the state in criminal cases. And they came to 7 the conclusion that some of their wealthier counties, like 8 King County in Seattle, they were abiding by the national 9 standard and they were paying them what their superior court 10 judges make. And they set out their pay scale accordingly. 11 And guess what, they didn't have a whole lot of 12 problems on hiring people because they could pick and choose 13 who they wanted. And they didn't have a lot of problems with 14 career prosecutors leaving because the salaries made sense. 15 And they have a 2016 pay scale, which I made some copies of 16 and I'd be happy to give you. And when they created it -- 17 this is the pay scale that they have for the prosecutors. 18 But what they did, up in the left-hand corner, they said 19 based on a thirty-five hour week. I'm here to tell you that 20 there is no prosecutor anywhere on the planet works a 21 thirty-five hour week. (SEE ATT. A.) 22 Most of our younger prosecutors work sixty hours a 23 week. And when they're in trial, they work longer. But the 24 thirty-five hour week was important because they took the 25 salary that they were paying them and then broke it down. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 25 1 And for an attorney I, his hourly rate was $34 an hour. 2 Now, if you piled on the overtime that he's 3 required to do, it makes the salary closer to sixteen or 4 seventeen an hour. When the national minimum wage is 5 increasingly moving to fifteen. 6 So I'm not here to say that we should make these 7 people rich. That's not my purpose. I'm probably the only 8 Republican in the room. I'm not a Trumpster. I'm not a 9 Trumpster. But I'm probably the only Republican in the room, 10 so I am concerned about money. I'm also concerned about 11 retention. In 2014 -- 12 CHR. ONO: Rick, can I ask you to come to a 13 conclusion within the next three minutes. 14 MR. DAMERVILLE: Yes. In the next three minutes, I 15 will. 16 In 2014, the judgeship in Kona, district court 17 judgeship came open. The Judicial Qualifications Commission 18 recommended, Selection Commission, recommended six people to 19 the chief justice. Four of those names were Hawaii County 20 prosecutors. 2014. They didn't get selected. Those four 21 prosecutors three years later are no longer with the office, 22 not a one of them. 23 We lost fifty years of criminal experience because 24 we did not have a salary scale that when they could look at, 25 they could decide that this is a career. Personally, I don't ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 5 We had the same problem in 1989. 1989, with four 6 positions, we were so desperate that we went out and poached 7 from Maui. Page 26 1 understand why somebody who can still compete -- an athlete 2 who can still compete doesn't become a glorified referee if 3 he can still compete. I can only cite that the reason they 4 left is because the salaries are too low. raised their salaries, 5 We had the same problem in 1989. 1989, with four 6 positions, we were so desperate that we went out and poached 7 from Maui. Because our salaries, be as low as they were, 8 were higher than Maui's. And Maui, we poached four 9 prosecutors. And several months later Maui got the light 10 bulb go off in their head, and they raised their salaries, 11 and those four prosecutors ran back to Maui. 12 We don't need that kind of competition. We need 13 the same system that says, you know what, the legislature 14 should be paying for some of these salaries. Because what 15 these people do is basically mostly enforce state law. And 16 that's what Washington eventually came up with. They said, 17 okay, State of Washington, we're going to pay half of their 18 salary. We're going to tie it to what the trial judges are 19 making. We're going to pay -- the state's going to pay half, 20 but we're going to require the counties to pay what they had 21 been paying in 2008. 22 To me that sounds reasonable and it makes sense. 23 And we get rid of all this stuff about what Maui's doing or 24 what Kaua'i's doing. Because every county is entitled to 25 experienced and qualified prosecutors. Thank you. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 27 1 CHR. ONO: Any questions of Ricky? 2 MR. FRATINARDO: Yes. I swung by the prosecuting 3 attorney's office last week, and I spoke with a couple of the 4 newer deputies, and I spoke with you. I had a question for 5 you about how much it cost for you to attend college back in 6 the day compared with a couple of the deputies that had 7 enormous school loans. 8 So how does your prosecuting attorney's office -- 9 what carrot do you use to wave at these people to attract 10 them as an employee at the -- as an attorney at your 11 prosecuting attorney's office? And you just mentioned 12 retention. But also -- I mean, it's not our job to pay off 13 their school loans. But it's just a fact of life that to 14 attend a college like Richardson School of Law, you're going 15 to have a large loan to pay off at the end. 16 MR. DAMERVILLE: Well, I can call on my military 17 background and say I suggested to one that you join the Army 18 Reserve, and he did. And then the reward I got is he went 19 out on military duty, so I got called back. 20 But I don't think student loans should be a factor 21 in what you make your ultimate decision with. When you're a 22 new prosecutor, we're going to work you to death. I mean, 23 that's just the way it is. That's the training that you have 24 to get. And if they want to compete, and they do, because 25 they're in a competitive environment, they want to be better ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 28 1 than everybody else. 2 And I can tell you, these young ones that we've got 3 today are very good. But Jack is better. I'm sorry. He's 4 better. And if we can persuade him to change his mind, well, 5 I'll have a nice Christmas vacation. 6 MR. FRATINARDO: I should ask more specifically, to 7 attract the best and brightest minds in law coming out of 8 school, what do we have to do, as a County? 9 MR. DAMERVILLE: You're not -- to attract the best 10 and brightest, I think my daughters are the best and 11 brightest. They became lawyers not because they saw how hard 12 I worked. And I didn't lie to them and tell them I didn't 13 enjoy it. I enjoyed every minute of it. I love the practice 14 of law as a trial lawyer. 15 You're not going to be able to pay them what they 16 got. They got $160,000 a year to start. Okay. Now, that's 17 crazy. And I told them it's crazy. And I told the oldest 18 one, I don't care that you went to Harvard Law School, I 19 don't care that you were magnum cum laude, I don't care that 20 my younger one went to Boston University and was on Law 21 Review, you're not worth a hundred and -- a first-year 22 attorney is not worth $160,000 a year. 23 And their response was, Daddy, do you know 24 how hard we have to work? And my response to them was, 25 Baby, do you know how hard a new deputy prosecutor or a new ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 29 1 public defender, because I've been both, has to work? It's 2 incredible. It's a sweatshop. But it's worth it. It's 3 worth it to the community, and it's worth it for your own 4 career. 5 But at some point in time you come to this point 6 where you take your beginning salary and you plug it into the 7 Department of Labor's inflation calculator, and you take the 8 salary that you retired at in 2012, and you say, you know 9 what, I made three thousand more dollars over twenty years 10 than when I started. That will cause people to leave. 11 And people are leaving. And it's unfortunate that 12 they're leaving because we're losing real talent. Those four 13 people that were on that list, Kimberly Taniyama, Chris 14 Schlueter, Jeff Burleson, and the other one who escapes me 15 right now, they were top -line prosecutors. And did we 16 replace them? Yes, we replaced them. But you can't replace 17 fifty years of experience overnight. It just doesn't work. 18 And when they're looking at the salaries and 19 whether or not they're going to make it a career, they can 20 take the sixty-five hour weeks. He puts in seventy. I know 21 that. He puts in seventy. I tell him all the time, go home. 22 Because it's not worth losing a spouse because you love your 23 job. No. It's not. But the salaries have to be 24 competitive. 25 And the tradeoff between Maui and Kauai, the ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 30 1 prosecutors should all be paid the same. It's just whether 2 or not, whether we have the guts and the wherewithal to say, 3 you know, legislature, a big part of this cost should be 4 picked up by the state, not the counties. Because every 5 county is entitled to qualified experienced attorneys. 6 Thank you. 7 MR. MATSUKAWA: Tom, you were asking why people 8 apply at the job now. Because they need one job for a little 9 while. What you should do, try check with Mitch, find out 10 within the last six years how much applied to this office and 11 left. They worked for how many years and they left. You can 12 see there's a huge amount of turnover. I think they just 13 need a job temporarily before they can move on to something 14 else. That's the kind of guys we're hiring now, because they 15 don't stay very long. 16 MR. FRATINARDO: And the next question I want to 17 ask -- 18 MR. DAMERVILLE: We call them DITS. That's what 19 the police call them, DITS, defense attorneys in training. 20 They come to work with us, they get all the County training, 21 they go off to all the courses, they learn everything, and 22 then they go after the big bucks. 23 MR. MATSUKAWA: That's true what he says. When I 24 first started in 186 -- 25 CHR. ONO: Well, let me say, let me interrupt here, ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 31 1 your points are all very well made. I mean it's been 2 repetitive. It's the same thing. Nobody has said anything 3 other than what you have alleged here. And this Commission 4 realizes it. But thank you for all that testimony. 5 Because what we've come to realize is some of the 6 dynamics within the salary schedule for not only the 7 prosecuting attorney's office, but also for the corp. counsels 8 office. 9 So did you have another? 10 MR. FRATINARDO: No. I'm good. 11 CHR. ONO: Okay. Before we take a break, and I'm 12 going to take a break -- 13 Nelson, you have a question? 14 MR. HARANO: Yeah. I want to make one just comment 15 on the Washington State. You know, yeah, they, you know, 16 they doing what's necessary to attract. But you know, there 17 were -- the sources of revenue to compensate for this 18 increase for, you know, just to get the salaries up to 19 standards, you know, there are -- it's the taxes that, you 20 know, increase as a result of, you know, getting up to par. 21 So, you know, we got the state tax as well as the 22 local counties. And I'll give you a good example. You know, 23 I used to fish quite a bit in Washington State. And there I 24 had to get a fisheries license. Cost me thirty-six bucks for 25 a full season. And the fisheries were well funded where I ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 32 1 used to fish, and we used to fish right in front of the 2 hatchery in the river. 3 And before, there was over a million (inaudible), 4 plants, that was in the hatchery before they let it go out to 5 sea so it can come back. Now it's less than two hundred 6 thousand plants in the -- money -- you collect the license 7 fee, but it doesn't stay with the Department of Fisheries. 8 You know, it goes into the general fund to cover wherever the 9 shortfall is. 10 So it's gotten to a point where I stopped buying my 11 fishing license already. What for? There is no return. You 12 know, the money doesn't stay in the fisheries. So just want 13 to -- real property is another, you know, casualty of trying 14 to raise the bar. 15 MR. DAMERVILLE: That's why I understand the 16 taxation systems and issues, and I understand that this 17 Commission doesn't have the power to tell the state 18 legislature that you know what, you should be funding a 19 bigger part of this. 20 In Hawaii, the state legislature takes all fines, 21 fees that we pay in traffic cases, dumps it into the general 22 fund. The County doesn't see any of it. They take our 23 transient accommodation taxes, dump it into the general fund, 24 and make us come and beg for it. That I understand. 25 But I think if all the counties who have the same ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 33 1 situation about prosecutors, and we should be paying more 2 because they're being paid more, if they took that and said 3 look, the job of a prosecutor is basically to enforce state 4 law, the state legislature should pick that up. 5 MR. FRATINARDO: Mr. Chairman, can I just -- we had 6 Deanna Sako come and testify before this Commission. And she 7 already gave her opinion as far as the availability of funds. 8 So that's already something we've discussed. And I think 9 maybe if you want to go back and revisit that later, we can. 10 CHR. ONO: I would like to do that discussion within 11 the contents of our business meeting. So if it's -- if 12 there's no objection, what I'd like to do right now is we 13 have one more testimony which is written here, which you all 14 have received, so I'm just going to ask that when you take a 15 look at it -- and we'll just introduce this into the record 16 as part of the meeting notes. 17 What I would like to suggest is go around the 18 room, and some of the people here that have not testified, we 19 want to find out who you are. 20 Welcome back, Renee. Are you back here? 21 MS. SCHOEN: I'm an observer. Renee Schoen, 22 Corporation Counsel. 23 MR. CADAY: Good morning. Ryan Caday, Deputy 24 Prosecuting Attorney. 25 MR. WALTJEN: Good morning, Kelven Waltjen, Deputy ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 34 1 Prosecuting Attorney. 2 CHR. ONO: Missed someone down there. 3 MS. COOK-LAUER: Nancy Cook Lauer. I'm a reporter 4 with West Hawaii Today and the Tribune -Herald. 5 MR. DAMERVILLE: You already know me. 6 MR. BECKER: I'm Bob Becker. I'm a retired 7 emergency manager. 8 MR. MALATE: Jeff Malate, Deputy Prosecuting 9 Attorney. 10 MR. TRUSDELL: Tharrington Trusdell, Deputy 11 Prosecuting Attorney. Like Jack, I'm set to retire on 12 December 30. I would make as much money on retirement and 13 social security staying home, my take-home pay, as I would 14 working. 15 And so -- I've been there twenty-four years, four 16 and a half years in Honolulu Corporation Counsel. 17 MS. LAMKIN: Michele Lamkin, Classification and 18 Pay. 19 MS. SAKAMOTO: Jennifer Sakamoto, Classification 20 and Pay. 21 CHR. ONO: That's Paul over there. 22 Does the Commission want to take a five-minute 23 break before we continue. 24 Please be back by ten -ten. 25 (Recess taken from 10:05 a.m. to 10:15 a.m.) ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 35 1 CHR. ONO: Okay. Now we'll call the meeting to 2 order. 3 Continuing on announcements -- well, we have no 4 approval of minutes on this agenda. But under the next item, 5 announcements, we did already introduce Nelson as our new 6 Commissioner. We also have a vacancy for District 9. We 7 still have that one vacancy. And I forgot where district -- 8 I think it's North Kohala or South Kohala -- North Kohala. 9 MS. YAMADA: It's the Waimea area, Kohala, North 10 Kohala. 11 CHR. ONO: Okay. So we still have that vacancy. 12 But in the meantime, we're fine because we do have enough, 13 certainly enough members so that we have a quorum. So it 14 doesn't prevent us from conducting business. 15 MR. HARANO: So what's the total number of 16 Commissioners? 17 CHR. ONO: Nine. One per council district. 18 MR. FRATINARDO: Nine districts, and five for a 19 quorum. 20 MR. PAVAO: Why are we not getting notes? 21 CHR. ONO: Well, that's a question more for I think 22 Glynis. 23 MS. YAMADA: What was the question? 24 CHR. ONO: The question was, why don't we -- 25 MR. PAVAO: Why are we not getting minutes? ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 36 1 MS. YAMADA: Well, because I'm the secretary for 2 the Merit Appeals Board, and it's like having a meeting every 3 week for me. It takes a lot of preparation and 4 follow-through. So it's just a matter of time. 5 MR. PAVAO: Time. 6 MR. FRATINARDO: The requirement's sixty days, 7 anyways. 8 MS. YAMADA: I apologize for that. The minutes 9 are done, 'cause we have a reporter. But I haven't had the 10 time or opportunity to proof it. So that is the reason why, 11 again, I really apologize for that. 12 CHR. ONO: We'll get them, eventually, within the 13 time, Glynis. 14 MS. YAMADA: Thank you. 15 CHR. ONO: Okay. New business. Any items of new 16 business? I don't have any on the agenda. Okay. Let me -- 17 going into unfinished business, and I just -- under 18 unfinished business, at the last meeting, I'm just 19 summarizing, that we decided to develop two tiers. One was 20 to take care of the deficiencies within the salaries that are 21 occurring at the present time. 22 And then -- I think this is a really important 23 decision -- also deciding to do, after we determine that, to 24 take a look at something that's going to be happening in the 25 future when these collective bargaining and other things, ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 37 1 other pay adjustments, take. So we don't have -- trying to 2 avoid having the same lag that we've been having. 3 Any comments from anybody? 4 MR. HIGGINS: I just -- we all know SHOPO just did 5 their contract. Wouldn't that be considered as low -hanging 6 fruit for us? I mean, couldn't we attack that right away and 7 do that, at least done deal? And that's basically a 8 five-year plan. We're good for five years for police. I 9 mean, instead of kind of scatter -gunning. I mean, couldn't 10 we just get rid of the police right now? 11 CHR. ONO: Well, you know what, some of the 12 documents and information that was prepared is shown - well, 13 wait. I don't want to jump ahead of myself here. What this 14 sheet does is identify those positions. Do you all have it? 15 MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. 16 CHR. ONO: Okay. So the A-level are those positions 17 which are -- there's an inversion there. In other words, the 18 subordinate staff is getting paid more than the department 19 head or the appointee. 20 The second level is items that had been testified 21 to that certainly deserve the attention. And the last ones, 22 which are the C -level ones, or the ones shown in purple, are 23 positions where it would appear that the elected or appointed 24 official is getting paid more than the subordinate. 25 So, we'll get to that. So, we're actually on Item A ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 38 1 under unfinished business, which is a review of the existing 2 compensation plan. And with the information provided, this 3 is probably a good time to just start going ahead and seeing 4 if we can't arrive at some decisions. 5 So, Jim, would you explain that one more time. 6 MR. HIGGINS: Well, I was just thinking that we're 7 kind of locked in because of the state statute. That 8 basically brings everything back to the collective bargaining 9 agreements. I mean, this is beyond all imagination how good 10 this is. 11 I was just thinking that if we have an inversion 12 problem, and then we have a compliance problem, the 13 compliance problem is, are we in compliance with recent 14 collective bargaining agreements? That I don't know. I 15 don't know if that's been established whether we are or not. 16 But I thought that if we could work on that, the compliance, 17 that's a fairly easy thing to do. 18 Like SHOPO right now has a brand new one. So 19 bingo, we know that it's two -and -a -half, or whatever it is, 20 for the next five years, is that we agree that we have to 21 update the police on these, on this new agreement. And then 22 you can work on the inversion, if there is an inversion 23 problem in the police department, in the police salaries. 24 So that -- we could wipe that, bingo, and that's 25 pretty much set for the next five years. We really wouldn't ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 39 1 have to talk about the police for five years. I don't know. 2 I was just trying to think of a way to make this a lot 3 easier. 4 And you know, we have all this testimony, which is 5 wonderful and good, but I'm thinking of a way to actually 6 accomplish our goal of taking care of these folks and getting 7 in compliance with the state statute at the same time. 8 That's all. So I don't know if that's a good way to look at 9 it or not. I just wanted to throw that out for us to try to 10 discuss so that -- I mean, we've blown an hour already, and 11 I'm sorry to use that word, but we were just kind of going 12 around in circles, as you pointed out. And we accomplished 13 nothing. I would rather have used that hour to actually get 14 these people their raises. 15 MR. FRATINARDO: They have a right to testify 16 before the Commission. I received their point well. I mean 17 it makes it more -- 18 MR. HIGGINS: Well, we get into talking -- 19 MR. FRATINARDO: Yes, yes. 20 MR. HIGGINS: -- about kids going to Harvard. I 21 mean, you know, there's got to be some way we can streamline 22 this or we'll never get these guys their pay raise. 23 MR. FRATINARDO: Well, I think you presented this 24 plan, this initial plan. 25 CHR. ONO: Well, as a starting point -- ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 40 1 MR. FRATINARDO: A starting point. 2 CHR. ONO: -- of the discussion. But on the 3 testimony in the future, it just kind of rang a bell that we 4 can limit the testimony time. 5 MR. FRATINARDO: Yes. 6 CHR. ONO: And we will do that if we see, you know, 7 that kind of testimony. In fact, it might not be a bad idea 8 to start with that concept, to limit, to get to the point. 9 MR. FRATINARDO: County clerks are, like, limited 10 when they testify in front of a county council. It's like 11 two or three minutes. That's where we should set the limit 12 at. 13 CHR. ONO: Florence. 14 MS. IKEDA: I'd just like to say that I worked on 15 these things, because my career is in personnel and things 16 like that. 17 Because I look at it as we're just spinning our 18 wheels. That like the comparison and everything, I don't 19 know if it's culture. But if we all wrote down what we say, 20 like we would like to see this and this and we come together 21 and we work on it and come up with a set. Is that culture if 22 you work at it on your own, and then we come together and 23 discuss it? 24 You know, to say that, okay, we need to be in 25 compliance, we know that this union is, you know, this ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 41 contract is here, are we in compliance and things. Rather than just -- I feel like we're just going around in a circle. If we had more concrete, you know, data and the things that we worked on that we could come together, you know, work on it on our own, come together, then make decisions. We're not doing any decisions on our own. MS. SELF: Everyone keeps talking about coming into compliance with state law, but this is not -- MR. FRATINARDO: Yeah. It doesn't apply to us. MR. HIGGINS: Well, here's the next thing: Would you say that we have to -- the pay has to be based on the collective bargaining agreement? MS. SELF: You're under -- MR. HIGGINS: Equal to or better than, I mean, are we doing that? MS. SELF: This is state law. This applies to the excluded managers which they can explain that system to you. I think that's what they were doing when they gave you this statute. MR. FRATINARDO: The Charter, the Charter. MR. HIGGINS: Okay. Then I don't understand it. MS. SELF: Okay. You guys are under the Charter. MR. FRATINARDO: The Charter, yeah, says that. The Charter says that. MS. SELF: Section 13-20(a), and that's what it's ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 42 1 charged you to do is to set the salaries for the -- 2 Okay. So the Commission shall review and 3 compensate all county elected officials and appointed 4 directors and deputy directors so that their total salaries 5 and benefits have a reasonable relationship to compensation 6 in the public and private sectors. 7 So that's what your job is -- 8 MR. FRATINARDO: Yeah. 9 MS. SELF: Not -- yeah. 10 MR. HIGGINS: It's pretty hard to use the private; 11 that's too much of a variance. Okay. So am I misinformed 12 then? Is that what you're telling me? 13 MS. SELF: I thought you were talking about -- 14 everybody keeps talking about state law, but it's actually 15 county law that you guys -- 16 MR. FRATINARDO: The Charter. 17 MS. SELF: -- the Charter that you guys get to 18 comply with. 19 MR. FRATINARDO: That's why I was wondering -- 20 MR. HIGGINS: Didn't we talk, in the first meeting 21 then -- somebody clear me up on this because I'm on the wrong 22 track then. 23 MS. SELF: Yeah. There was confusion because it 24 had been put into your packets, but I guess it had not been 25 explained. I guess the reason it's put in your packets is ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 43 because it was Bill had said to me that they thought it would be a good example of how you could set up a system so that every time the unions negotiated at a higher salary for their employees, that you'd have a system that would automatically go up for these people that you have to set the salaries for. MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. MS. SELF: And Jenny can explain to you, they have a system like that for excluded managers who're also exempt from the civil service. They have a system for that. That's under state law that the director of HR has to have such a system in place to keep them either equal to or above what the union employees make. MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. MS. SELF: So that's maybe something she can explain to -- MR. FRATINARDO: That's separate from us. THE REPORTER: One person at a time, please, if you want a record. MR. FRATINARDO: I think he was referring to 89C-3. That was what was confusing to me. In the very back of our binders, we have 89C-3 is what maybe what he was referring. MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. MR. FRATINARDO: Which does not apply to us. MR. HIGGINS: That's exactly what I was referring to. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 44 1 MS. SELF: Yeah. Just ignore that. If you want 2 an explanation, you have to have a system set up. 3 CHR. ONO: All right. But this is the -- I've 4 tried to digest everything that's going on with this Salary 5 Commission. We have a huge task. But to simplify it in a 6 way that I envision it, we should probably take the 7 worst-case scenario, which appears to be the police 8 department. And we have an inversion over there. It's the 9 largest inversion of all. 10 I believe we take one position first, the chief's 11 position, and the deputy's position, and we set that pay 12 first. It'll make the other ones easier to address. 13 MR. FRATINARDO: Yes. 14 CHR. ONO: And the rationale will fall in place. At 15 this point, if we do that, just for the chief and the deputy, 16 as we go to the other positions, which would probably be in 17 the attorney's offices, to take care of those inversions, 18 we'll probably see some kind of balances or imbalances taking 19 effect. And basically at this point what we're going to do, 20 come up with a suggested salary for each of these positions, 21 which could adjust as we run through the deliberations. And 22 at a future meeting we're going to adopt those. So that 23 would be my suggestion on the -- to best get through this. 24 Go to the chief's position first. 25 MR. CAMPBELL: Well, I don't know if I'm satisfied ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 45 1 with that. You presented to us a list of the inverted 2 positions (SEE ATT. B) -- 3 CHR. ONO: Yes. 4 MR. CAMPBELL: -- and suggested salaries at a 5 minimum five percent over what would be necessary to get them 6 above the inverted position that they're in now. So why -- I 7 don't understand why we can't just adopt what you gave us. 8 CHR. ONO: It's -- well, basically it's -- 9 MR. CAMPBELL: As a first cut, it gets things in 10 place today. We're moving on. And then we can get to all 11 this other, set it against whatever is required by County 12 Charter. But in the meantime, let's get these things fixed. 13 MR. FRATINARDO: And I reviewed this -- 14 CHR. ONO: That's a Commission decision. I just did 15 this because it gives us a starting point for discussion. 16 MR. CAMPBELL: Yeah, well -- and it's -- to me 17 you've done excellent work here. And so to me it says, hey, 18 let's -- if this really does get us out of the inverted role, 19 let's adopt this as where we are today and then go and fix 20 what we need to fix to relate for the years to come. 21 MR. FRATINARDO: And that would be in June -- 22 MR. CAMPBELL: Right. 23 MR. FRATINARDO: -- addressing the collective 24 bargaining agreement with our plan. 25 CHR. ONO: Oh, the second tier. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 46 1 MR. FRATINARDO: The second tier, which is -- which 2 makes total sense. 3 CHR. ONO: If that's what you want to do, George, I 4 think we need a motion on the floor. 5 MR. CAMPBELL: Yeah. Well, to get the discussion 6 started, I would like to move that we adopt the -- in the 7 chart presented in Column 7, the suggested salaries for all 8 those positions that are inverted and for the counsel and 9 prosecuting attorneys today, as presented in this chart. 10 MR. HIGGINS: Question, George: So that's in 11 addition? You initially said just the chief and fire chief 12 and police chief. But now your -- 13 MR. CAMPBELL: No. 14 MR. HIGGINS: -- suggestion is we accept all of 15 them? 16 MR. CAMPBELL: All of them. 17 MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. Okay. I just want to be clear 18 on that. 19 MR. CAMPBELL: We need a second, if we're going to 20 discuss it. 21 CHR. ONO: We have a motion on the floor that 22 George has made to use this suggested salary. We would need 23 a second to continue this -- 24 MR. FRATINARDO: We give discussion before the 25 second? ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 47 1 MR. CAMPBELL: No. 2 MS. SELF: You need a second. 3 MR. HIGGINS: You need a second first. 4 MR. FRATINARDO: I second it. 5 CHR. ONO: Moved and seconded that we adopt Column 6 Number 7. Now open for discussion. 7 MR. FRATINARDO: I would like to adopt all of it. 8 Because there's -- like you were saying earlier, why do 9 piecemeal for all these different -- 10 MR. CAMPBELL: That was my intent. 11 MR. FRATINARDO: So you want all of it? 12 MR. CAMPBELL: All of it, yes. 13 MR. FRATINARDO: From the top to the bottom. 14 MR. CAMPBELL: Top to the bottom. 15 MR. FRATINARDO: Just not for the first or second. 16 MR. CAMPBELL: This is top to the bottom, yes. 17 MR. FRATINARDO: And second that. 18 MR. CAMPBELL: Where we are with these salaries is 19 insulting. 20 MR. FRATINARDO: I second that. 21 CHR. ONO: Open for discussion. 22 MR. PAVAO: I would like to know -- I mean, I 23 certainly agree that they need to be paid more. But before I 24 would vote for adoption, I'd really like to get a sense, a 25 good idea, some logic as to how these figures come about. I ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 48 1 have a hard time just accepting figures without knowing how 2 we came about, why. And I think I need more information 3 before I would be willing to accept it. 4 CHR. ONO: Well, these were developed just for 5 discussion only. This is not a decision-making meeting. We 6 would have to specifically put on our recommendation and, on 7 a future meeting, specific agenda for adoption. So this 8 gives us some time between this meeting and the next meeting 9 to take a look at specific positions, if there's any 10 adjustment within there that any Commissioner is interested 11 in making, be it either up or down. 12 Florence. 13 MS. IKEDA: I have a problem with the five percent. 14 Where did you get this five percent from? Is that an 15 arbitrary figure, or you had something that you based this 16 five percent on? 17 CHR. ONO: Yeah. It's five percent of -- what did 18 I do? Yeah. It's five percent over the subordinate's 19 salary. 20 MS. SELF: One at a time, please. 21 CHR. ONO: I'm sorry. The answer to the question 22 that Florence asked: It's five percent added onto the salary 23 of the highest subordinate that reports to the appointee's 24 position. 25 MR. FRATINARDO: Question from District 1: And ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 49 1 that's just to adjust the deficiencies at this time? 24 fifty-three for the corp. counsel come about? ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 CHR. ONO: Correct. So, it's just a number. 2 MR. FRATINARDO: Yeah. Got you. 3 CHR. ONO: It can be changed. 4 MR. PAVAO: And this five percent is not -- 5 example, corp. counsel, one fifty-three. Obviously, it's not 6 five percent of anything. It's just the one fifty-three is 7 an idea of what it should be. 8 MS. SELF: No. This is -- 9 MR. PAVAO: It's not related to five percent. 10 MS. SELF: This is Amy speaking. He's talking 11 about there's no inversion with these. They just haven't 12 been raised in a very long time. 13 MR. PAVAO: Yeah. I know. That's what I mean. 14 There is a five percent -- 15 MS. SELF: But these are inversions. That's why he 16 went by this. Anything from here down, there's no inversion 17 problem. 18 MR. PAVAO: Right, right. 19 MS. SELF: These are -- 20 MR. PAVAO: So, the five percent only applies to 21 this inversion. 22 MS. SELF: Yes. 23 MR. PAVAO: Okay. So, how did the hundred 24 fifty-three for the corp. counsel come about? ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 50 1 CHR. ONO: I don't know. I forgot. 2 MS. SELF: Were we comparing the different 3 counties? 4 CHR. ONO: No. That was not the intent. The five 5 percent was to be based on the -- I'd have to go back and 6 figure out, you know, what I did on those. 7 Florence. 8 MS. IKEDA: I have a question. On these salaries 9 here for the, you know, top people, all the benefits are paid 10 by who? Is that County paying, and it's not included in 11 their salaries? Is that what it is? 12 MS. SELF: Yes. It's not included in the base. 13 MS. IKEDA: It's not in the base amount? 14 MS. SAKAMOTO: Yeah. It's separate. So this is 15 additional sixty percent. 16 MS. SELF: Jenny, can you come up here, please? 17 MS. SAKAMOTO: Oh, sorry. Jennifer Sakamoto, Human 18 Resources. 19 So, the pay that you're seeing there on that list is 20 just representative of their base salary. So, any benefits 21 that they will receive is in addition to that. So it's -- I 22 think, generally speaking, and you know, this is not, I'm not 23 positive, but I think it's about sixty percent. 24 So they would calculate another sixty percent, and 25 that would be equal to -- ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 51 1 MS. IKEDA: So when he did the calculation, like it 2 says, a hundred and fifty-three thousand, do we have to add 3 that sixty percent on to the hundred fifty-three thousand, or 4 we don't -- 5 MS. SAKAMOTO: You folks don't worry about that. 6 MS. IKEDA: Okay. 7 MS. SAKAMOTO: It would be automatically adjusted 8 through the budget process. 9 CHR. ONO: Let me say that I see something that 10 would appear to be obviously wrong with a hundred and 11 fifty-three thousand. I don't know where it came from, and 12 maybe it's some of my quick computations. I just put a 13 number in there which I don't know where it came from. I'd 14 have to . . . 15 MR. CAMPBELL: Pretty close to Honolulu. 16 MS. SAKAMOTO: Can I just add one more thing. 17 Before you folks approve and finalize any salaries, would we 18 be able to at least run the numbers so that they're equally 19 divvied up to twenty-four payments. Sometimes that messes up 20 payroll. 21 So if it's point -whatever -cents, so if we can just 22 kind of run those numbers to be as close to what you 23 folks . . . 24 CHR. ONO: Absolutely. 25 MS. SAKAMOTO: Yeah. Before you guys finalize ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 52 1 that. 2 MR. HIGGINS: Jennifer, right? 3 MS. SAKAMOTO: Yes. 4 MR. HIGGINS: Would you be kind enough, the 5 inversion section -- 6 That's great the way you, Chairman, you've broken 7 that down. And that is a problem we have to solve. 8 Could we take one of them, say, the director of 9 finance, and work all the way through all the columns so that 10 a simple mind like mine can understand exactly what's 11 happening? 12 MS. SAKAMOTO: When to be -- this? 13 MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. Go across. So let's take the 14 director of finance. It's -- a hundred and ten is their 15 current salary. I want to know what happens. So where the 16 subordinate, that -- what's that one twenty-six refer to? 17 MS. SAKAMOTO: It's probably a subordinate that's 18 be being paid that much. 19 MR. HIGGINS: Okay. So that's the inversion 20 problem. 21 MS. SAKAMOTO: Right. That's why it's at that top 22 one. 23 MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. Okay. I just want to understand 24 that. So we're suggesting then that that one ten goes up to 25 one thirty-two. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 53 1 MS. SAKAMOTO: So that it would be, I think, five 2 percent. 3 MR. HIGGINS: Okay. So that's a rather 4 substantial -- you know, it's a twenty percent, twenty-five 5 percent pay raise. But that would correct the inversion 6 problem. 7 The next two, eight and nine, those columns, what 8 does that actually mean? 9 MS. SAKAMOTO: That's -- I think that's Maui and 10 Kauai, and city. So C -O -M is County of Maui. 11 MR. HIGGINS: Just want to make sure. 12 MS. SAKAMOTO: I think that's -- I didn't prepare 13 this, so -- but that's what I'm thinking it means. 14 MR. HIGGINS: So, some of these, if we do correct 15 the inversion problem, which we have to do, there's going to 16 be some really happy people here. But we can, by George's 17 motion, we could take care of all those inversions by just 18 that section, right, if we approve that? 19 MS. SAKAMOTO: I believe that's where it would 20 identify it. 21 MR. HIGGINS: Because down below, from what Amy 22 just said, there are no inversion problems. Okay. Just 23 want to make sure I know. 24 CHR. ONO: The green color and the purple color, if 25 I recall correctly, there's no inversion problem here. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 54 1 MR. CAMPBELL: Just no raise since like 2008 for 2 the -- 3 MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. 4 MR. CAMPBELL: -- for the yellow. 5 CHR. ONO: Point of clarification, we've had some 6 testimony from the fire commission people about inversion. 7 As far as I know, and Jennifer, you can clarify 8 this, I don't believe there's a inversion problem with the 9 fire chief and the people that report to the fire chief. 10 MS. SAKAMOTO: It's not showing that here. 11 MR. HIGGINS: If I recall, the inversion was on the 12 deputy. 13 MS. SAKAMOTO: I think they were talking more about 14 the battalion chief and the captains. The captains weren't 15 applying for battalion chief because -- 16 MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. 17 MS. SAKAMOTO: And then they were -- it was less 18 overtime opportunity for them. 19 MR. PAVAO: So, it wasn't with the fire chief. It 20 was with the -- 21 MS. SAKAMOTO: I don't see that here. 22 MR. PAVAO: Just below these. 23 MR. CAMPBELL: Yes, it was. Last time we heard 24 that the fire chief could take the deputy, the assistant 25 chief position and get a raise. That says to me there's an ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 55 1 inversion. 2 MR. HIGGINS: But it's not shown here. 3 CHR. ONO: The information -- and I took this off 4 the information that was furnished already in documents. So, 5 unless the County provides different information, I did not 6 find an inversion with the fire chief's position. So, it's 7 either yes or no. 8 MS. SAKAMOTO: The only thing I can think of is 9 that they're counting the overtime. That might be one of the 10 reasons. 11 MR. HARANO: But I think people do count the 12 overtime. 13 CHR. ONO: You know, that's very difficult to take 14 into consideration because it's like a floating target. So 15 we can take it into consideration, but you can't factor it 16 in. 17 So, Jennifer, is there a way of providing us with 18 information on the fire chief? Is there inversion there or 19 not? 20 MS. SAKAMOTO: I can go back and check these 21 numbers. But, I mean, I'm just going based off of what you 22 have on this chart. 23 CHR. ONO: Right. I understand that, yeah. And I 24 did check and double-check. And for some reason, I have no 25 idea, the green columns, how I got those figures in the ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 56 1 Column Number 7. 2 MS. SAKAMOTO: Well, we can go back and 3 double-check that. 4 MR. DOW: You have a representative from fire 5 here. Do you want to hear anything from him? 6 CHR. ONO: Well, human resources should be able to 7 determine that. 8 Right, Jennifer? 9 MS. SAKAMOTO: Yes. 10 MR. CAMPBELL: Just going by what we heard last 11 time, I distinctly remember hearing that statement. 12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I did, too. 13 MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. I thought so, too. 14 CHR. ONO: Are you able to comment on that? 15 MR. BECKER: Yeah. There are, other than just 16 overtime, there are differentials that are paid that are not 17 strictly shown in the salary figures. Because say, for 18 example, the assistant chiefs, because they work on a 19 forty -hour week instead of a fifty-six hour fire department 20 week, they are paid a differential pay. 21 And some of them, some of the other captains, for 22 example, are paid extra differentials for having those skill 23 sets that are not overtime that they automatically get. We 24 pay those other differentials in there. It's -- they do make 25 more money, assistant chiefs do. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 57 1 MR. DOW: We can go by his base salary. All 2 that we can consider is base salaries. 3 CHR. ONO: Yes. But these are contractual. 4 MR. CAMPBELL: Yeah. What he's talking about is 5 the contractual. I mean, you talk differential, you're 6 talking -- in my mind, that's part of the base. 7 MR. FRATINARDO: Yes. 8 MR. BECKER: It's by contract. 9 MR. FRATINARDO: It's by contract. 10 MR. BECKER: You cannot not pay it. 11 MR. CAMPBELL: So we -- somehow that needs to get 12 considered. 13 MR. DOW: So we don't have the right number 14 here. 15 MR. BECKER: That's correct. 16 MR. FRATINARDO: For fire. 17 MR. DOW: For fire. 18 MR. HARANO: Well, can we review the entire board 19 and see if, you know, the salaries are realistic, including 20 the differentials? 21 CHR. ONO: Yeah. I'm not sure we understand what 22 the differentials are. 23 But, Jennifer, can we request from human resources 24 an explanation of that at our next meeting? 25 MS. SAKAMOTO: Okay. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 58 1 CHR. ONO: Because I don't think anybody knows for 2 sure at this Commission sitting here right now what that 3 means as far as what we're deliberating. 4 MS. SAKAMOTO: This is only for fire? 5 MS. IKEDA: Only for fire. 6 MR. CAMPBELL: Fire is what we're concerned about. 7 CHR. ONO: Does police have that same kind of 8 Differential, too? 9 MS. SAKAMOTO: They receive, they may receive a lot 10 more things that it's not included. 11 MR. FRATINARDO: Police have night differential. 12 MS. SAKAMOTO: Like they get car allowance. They 13 get a lot more stuff. 14 CHR. ONO: But those are not salary. 15 MR. FRATINARDO: No. It's just a -- it's just like 16 car allowance. It's not considered salary. 17 MS. SAKAMOTO: But other contracts have the same 18 thing. 19 MR. FRATINARDO: Exactly. So, it's not -- 20 MS. SAKAMOTO: Unit 1, Unit 13, if you work night, 21 you get a differential. There's -- all of them have -- 22 MR. FRATINARDO: Right. 23 MS. SAKAMOTO: -- different things within their 24 contract. So, it just depends on -- and that's why I was 25 asking: Are you only looking at fire, or you want us -- I ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 59 1 mean, there's -- every contract has different things within 2 their contracts. So are you going to look at everything, 3 every one? 4 MR. HIGGINS: I have one more question. Getting 5 back to something we can do, which is the inversion table 6 here, we've ascertained that this will take care of the 7 apparent inversions. 8 The second thing, it looks to me like we're -- most 9 of those are going to be comparable to Maui There are some 10 differences still yet, and there always will be, probably. 11 But my question would be, are we comfortable with, A, this, 12 the inversions being taken care of; and B, are those 13 comparisons to Maui bringing most of them up to standard with 14 Maui? Are we comfortable with that? 15 If so, then that upper bracket of pink or whatever 16 that is, is looking pretty good, that we could take care of 17 the inversion problem, notwithstanding we're going to get 18 other numbers regarding the fire and what have you. And 19 there are complications. 20 But we could take care of something. 21 MR. CAMPBELL: Yeah. I like that thought. 22 Certainly, we could -- if you look at the, as James says, in 23 the -- where we're talking comparable. We are -- I mean the 24 salaries, the suggested salaries are close to being 25 comparable with Maui. And at least we're in the ballpark. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 60 1 We're lower than them in some cases, even with this, even 2 with these numbers. But these, as they exist, are 3 substantial raises for the people in those positions. And it 4 at least gets us past the inversion process. And then, if we 5 have to do something else, as a Commission, we can do that if 6 we decide to do so. But at least it gets that thing 7 straightened out. 8 CHR. ONO: As step one. 9 MR. CAMPBELL: Step one. 10 CHR. ONO: If in fact we adopt this, does it allow 11 this Commission to come back within a relatively short time 12 and do further adjustments to it? 13 MS. SAKAMOTO: I think that's a question for Amy. 14 MR. PAVAO: I'm sure it's -- 15 MR. HIGGINS: Sounds like we can. 16 MR. PAVAO: The only problem -- 17 MR. CAMPBELL: We're the ones that set it. 18 MR. PAVAO: You guys would be going crazy 19 because . . . 20 MR. CAMPBELL: Well, they might be, but that 21 doesn't stop -- we still have the authority to -- 22 MR. FRATINARDO: Right. 23 MR. CAMPBELL: -- set these whenever and wherever. 24 There's no time limit listed in that Charter. 25 CHR. ONO: So what I'm hearing, at least we can ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 61 1 take care of something right away. 2 MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. 3 CHR. ONO: And I think we kind of generally agree, 4 consensus here, that we need to take care of something. 5 MR. FRATINARDO: I have a question, Mr. Chair. Is 6 there going to be time for an executive meeting, or is it -- 7 were one of those necessary -- when is an executive meeting 8 absolutely necessary, as far as discussions concerned? I'm 9 aware that it all goes on -- what we say here or there is on 10 the minutes, so -- 11 MS. SELF: Well, so far I haven't heard anything, 12 any reason to go into executive session. It would be over 13 legal responsibility that you have, very specific as to 14 (inaudible). 15 MR. FRATINARDO: So I -- you know, there's a 16 possibility that people can leave, like just what happened. 17 We've lost people over the last four months. And I think we 18 need to address the corp. counsel down to the assistant 19 prosecuting attorney as well today. I think it is very 20 important. 21 MR. PAVAO: In fact, if I may interject, to me that 22 would be the priority. I think the inversion, while it is 23 necessary, I think we need more information that they're 24 going to prepare for us. 25 But the corp. counsel and the prosecuting attorney ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 62 1 is something we can do today. We can do it now. 2 MR. FRATINARDO: You know, there's judgeships out 3 there that pay $185,000 a year for a judge. The corp. 4 counsel and the prosecuting attorney's office, their 5 responsibility is so vast and the amount of personnel they 6 have and just defending the County from lawsuits, prosecuting 7 murder, crime in this County, we need to address those right 8 away. 9 CHR. ONO: Might I suggest this, that this 10 Commission adopt everything on the A, the B level. But we 11 probably need to take a look right now and set a figure for 12 corp. counsel, you know, that green column or the light -green 13 column. Because something is funny over there, right, at the 14 one fifty-three. Unless you really -- at least as a group we 15 agree to set it at that. 16 MR. FRATINARDO: Well, District 1, I hear us 17 comparing ourselves to Maui. I think we should use Oahu as 18 the base and compare ourselves to Oahu, what our County, the 19 amount of work we do compared to Oahu, and not Maui. Maui is 20 separate from us. 21 Like we were just talking earlier, we need to look 22 at Oahu and take it from there. I think we are between Maui 23 and Oahu, as far as -- 24 MR. CAMPBELL: If you look at what's proposed here, 25 it's pretty close to -- ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 63 1 1 MR. HIGGINS: Yeah, they're right on. 2 MR. PAVAO: I took a look at it. And based on the 3 testimony we have, and if you run the numbers like, say, 4 between Maui and Oahu, we split the difference, then the 5 salary should be about hundred forty-eight. And that would 6 be between Maui and Oahu. And I would think that would be 7 fair. 8 MR. FRATINARDO: But then can we take into 9 consideration they haven't received a pay raise in, how many, 10 ten years. 11 MR. PAVAO: But that's beside the point. The point 12 is we doing a pay raise now. 13 MR. FRATINARDO: But can we -- but we don't 14 consider that as a -- 15 MR. PAVAO: We can't undo what was done in the 16 past. 17 MR. FRATINARDO: No. I understand that. But 18 we've -- all the information that we're taking in today is 19 going to give us an informed decision is what I'm saying. 20 MR. PAVAO: Yeah. What I'm proposing, try look at 21 it, this is something we can do now. 22 MR. FRATINARDO: Yes. 23 MR. PAVAO: Corp. counsel and prosecuting attorney, 24 take the difference between Maui and Oahu and adjust the pay 25 scale accordingly. And, like I said, the difference between ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 64 1 Maui and Oahu is roughly $12,000. 2 So if you cut that in half, six, and add it to 3 Maui, that's hundred forty-eight thousand. And that would be 4 the salary of the corp. counsel here, hundred forty-eight. I 5 mean, that's just the rough way of doing it. It's between 6 Maui and Oahu. 7 CHR. ONO: Well, anyway, from the Chair's point of 8 view, the prosecuting attorney and the corp. counsel, those 9 are highly professional people. They've been through school. 10 And you need to pass the bar to practice law over here, so 11 it's not like any position. So, I have no problem with what 12 is shown here when I take a look at it. But if this group 13 wants to adjust it either way, up, down, I'm fine with that. 14 So, anyway, I believe what I'm hearing is we're all 15 fine with Column Number 7 for the Tier A, or the priority A's. 16 And for the next level, the B's, we should either accept this 17 "as is" or come up with some specific provisions. 18 MR. CAMPBELL: The motion is as is. 19 MR. FRATINARDO: I second it. 20 MS. SELF: We have a motion on the table. 21 MR. HIGGINS: There's a motion on the table. 22 MR. FRATINARDO: For discussion. 23 MS. SELF: Right. But -- 24 MR. FRATINARDO: So how do we -- 25 MS. SELF: Did you want to change the motion? So ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 65 1 you'd have to withdraw and 2 MR. HIGGINS: Don't you have to vote? And you 3 could vote against it, then have another motion. 4 I have a motion I could make. 5 MR. PAVAO: I'm sorry. What is the motion on the 6 floor? 7 MR. HIGGINS: That we accept the whole thing. 8 MS. SELF: The whole thing as is, this whole -- 9 MR. HIGGINS: Yeah, the whole -- 10 MR. FRATINARDO: The original motion was to discuss 11 the acceptance of the whole thing. 12 MR. HIGGINS: No. The motion -- yeah, you're 13 exactly right. It was, and it was seconded to accept this 14 whole thing. That's the motion on the table. 15 CHR. ONO: Is this Commission considering revising 16 the motion to just to do the A and the B? 17 MR. HIGGINS: That's what I would like to do. 18 MR. CAMPBELL: As the individual who made the 19 motion, I would like to revise that motion. 20 MS. SELF: Well, you should just withdraw your 21 motion. 22 MR. CAMPBELL: Okay. I'll withdraw it. 23 MS. SELF: And then do a new one. 24 MR. CAMPBELL: I withdraw, and then I'll -- 25 CHR. ONO: Okay. Let the record show that the ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 661 1 original motion is withdrawn. 2 So, George, you're going to restate the motion? 3 MR. CAMPBELL: Yes. If I could restate, I'd like 4 to suggest that we adopt the Column 7 for A and the B 5 categories as presented. 6 MR. FRATINARDO: I second it, Thomas Fratinardo. 7 CHR. ONO: Okay. It's been moved and seconded that 8 we adopt Tab D, Column Number 7 for priority levels A and B 9 shown in tan and green color. It's been seconded. So, now 10 it's open for discussion. 11 MR. HIGGINS: Just one thing to discuss on that is 12 that those are substantial raises for corp. and assistant. 13 The fire, if you look at that, I'm a little bit bothered by 14 that. They're going from, I mean, really, almost a no 15 increase at all for fire chief and the deputy. And as 16 compared to Honolulu, which we've done on the other ones in 17 that bracket, they're so far away it's not even funny. I 18 mean, that's huge, that's a fifty grand differential. So, to 19 me, that second bracket needs to be adjusted for fire. 20 CHR. ONO: Make a proposal. 21 MR. HIGGINS: I would like to make an amendment. 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: You cannot. 23 MR. HIGGINS: Well, you can make an amendment to 24 the motion, can't you? 25 MR. CAMPBELL: I can make an amendment to the ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 67 1 motion. 2 MS. SELF: Yeah. You can amend, and then you vote 3 on the amendment, and then you go back to the original. 4 MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. Okay. You want to make it, or 5 I'll -- 6 MR. CAMPBELL: Go ahead. 7 MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. Well, I'd like to make an 8 amendment, propose an amendment that would raise the net 9 second bracket, the fire chief and the deputy, up to at least 10 the Maui comparable. 11 MR. FRATINARDO: I second that. 12 That was a motion, correct? I second that. 13 MR. CAMPBELL: That's an amendment. 14 CHR. ONO: Okay. An amendment has been moved and 15 seconded that we adjust fire chief from one thirty-three two 16 thirty-nine to one fifty-five two hundred. 17 MS. SELF: It's one fifty-one. 18 MR. HIGGINS: One fifty-one. 19 CHR. ONO: I said one fifty-five, didn't I. One 20 fifty-one two hundred. And the deputy's to one forty-three 21 six hundred and forty thousand. Is that correct? 22 MR. HIGGINS: Yes. 23 MR. FRATINARDO: District 1, are we at a point to 24 vote or discussion? 25 MS. SELF: You can have the discussion on the ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 1 amendment. 2 MR. HIGGINS: Yes. 3 MR. FRATINARDO: So I want to say this: Maui 4 doesn't deal with a volcano. Maui is not -- at each island 5 is geographically unique. But this island deals with massive 6 brush fires, massive amount of geography, the volcano. 7 Basically, our -- and we don't set the salary for Civil 8 Defense. But the fire department and the chief -- the fire 9 chief has -- I couldn't believe it was set at this -- 10 MR. DOW: This low a salary. 11 MR. FRATINARDO: -- this low a salary. 12 MR. HIGGINS: Exactly. 13 MR. FRATINARDO: And I'm for adjusting this salary, 14 raising it. 15 CHR. ONO: I mean, you were talking about the 16 amendment which we develop some specific numbers. So, are we 17 going with this specific numbers? 18 MR. FRATINARDO: Yes. 19 CHR. ONO: Okay. 20 MR. FRATINARDO: But she just said like we do the 21 discussion. 22 CHR. ONO: So you support that? 23 MR. FRATINARDO: I support it. 24 CHR. ONO: Okay. Florence. 25 MS. IKEDA: I support A, but I have questions about ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 69 1 the B part. I think I'd like to take a closer look at it and 2 not accept the B part at this time. I have no problems with 3 the A section, the inversion section. I know it's the 4 amendment. But just as a discussion, I'm just stating my 5 opinion that I have no problems with the A. But the B, I 6 would like to take a closer look at it. I know the amendment 7 is on the floor for A and B. 8 CHR. ONO: Any further discussion on that? 9 MR. FRATINARDO: Question, can we separate any of 10 those out of B? Can we include any of those -- are there any 11 specific jobs in B that you would be willing to bump up to A? 12 MS. IKEDA: I believe the amendment that he made 13 includes all of A and all of B. 14 MS. SELF: The amendment on the table is to change, 15 only to change -- 16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Change the fire chief 17 number. 18 MS. SELF: -- the salaries of the fire chief and 19 the deputy fire chief -- 20 MR. HIGGINS: Up to Maui. 21 MS. SELF: Yeah. 22 MR. HIGGINS: That's the amendment that has been 23 proposed. And we're in discussion of that. And Tom has 24 brought up the fact regarding this island. I would just add 25 to that discussion is that bringing it up to Maui would make ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 70 1 it comparable to the fire -- I mean, the police chief and 2 deputy. They're only going up to Maui. 3 So I would -- I just don't feel comfortable about 4 saying that the fire guys are more valuable than the police 5 guys. 6 MR. CAMPBELL: Actually, they're close. 7 MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. I mean, those numbers are 8 identical. 9 CHR. ONO: I think we have a situation here we can 10 call for the question. 11 MR. HARANO: I want to have more discussion. 12 MS. SELF: On the amendment? 13 MR. HARANO: Yes. 14 CHR. ONO: Go ahead. 15 MR. HARANO: It seems like we're -- where are we 16 headed? You know, we're talking -- okay, they should be 17 between Maui and Honolulu on some of the positions. I think 18 we should -- if we're going to apply that approach, I think 19 we should apply it to all positions, rather than pick and 20 choose. Because now that brings in our bias on who goes up, 21 who doesn't go up. 22 CHR. ONO: Okay. We still have an amendment on the 23 floor. 24 MR. FRATINARDO: With this specific -- we're 25 talking about fire, right? We can go back to B, correct? ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 71 1 MS. SELF: You need to finish the amendment first. 2 MR. FRATINARDO: For this one. 3 MS. SELF: Yes. You need to either -- 4 MR. FRATINARDO: So we need to vote on just fire -- 5 this amendment is about raising, is about adjusting this 6 salary for fire, to raise it up -- 7 MR. HIGGINS: To Maui. 8 MR. FRATINARDO: Correct. That's the amendment. 9 We're not discussing B. We're just discussing that 10 specific -- 11 MS. SELF: Right. You're only discussing the 12 amendment. 13 MR. FRATINARDO: So, let's vote on it. 14 CHR. ONO: We're going to -- I'm going to call for 15 the question on that. Before I do, any last comments? 16 MS. IKEDA: So can you just state the amendment 17 once again so that, you know, to be specific about it. 18 MR. HIGGINS: The amendment is to increase the fire 19 and deputy fire salaries to be comparable to Maui numbers. 20 CHR. ONO: Okay. Let's call for the question. 21 We'll do this by voice vote first, roll call vote. All those 22 in favor, say aye. 23 COMMISSIONERS (COLLECTIVELY): Aye. 24 CHR. ONO: All those opposed? 25 MR. HARANO: Nay. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 motion. Page 72 CHR. ONO: Motion is carried. MR. HIGGINS: So then we go back to the original MS. SELF: So that was six in favor, two against. MS. YAMADA: Who was against it? I'm sorry. I didn't get the person. MR. HARANO: Me and Florence. MS. YAMADA: Oh, Florence. Thank you. CHR. ONO: You want to do a roll call vote? MS. YAMADA: That would be easier, I think. Thank you. CHR. ONO: Is that okay? MS. SELF: Mm-hmm. CHR. ONO: Okay. We'll do it that way. MS. SELF: Might as well do it for all of them. CHR. ONO: This is to vote on the amendment to adjust the fire and deputy chief to equal the County of Maui's pay scale. So, we'll start with George. MR. CAMPBELL: Aye. CHR. ONO: Jim. MR. HIGGINS: Aye. CHR. ONO: Milton. MR. PAVAO: Aye. CHR. ONO: Florence. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 73 1 MS. IKEDA: Nay. 2 MR. DOW: Aye. 3 MR. FRATINARDO: District 1, aye. 4 CHR. ONO: Nathan(sic). 5 MR. HARANO: Nay. 6 CHR. ONO: I don't have a vote, do I? 7 Let me just say this: I'm hoping when we work on 8 these things as a Commission that, you know, we're not going 9 to be in full agreement with everything that happens. But I 10 would hope, as one of my former mentors told me, that you 11 know, you go through this process and discussion. 12 And so, if a group or this Commission decides to 13 adopt it, so we can treat it like we all adopted it. And 14 this would be better everything -wise, because we would be 15 speaking as a group rather than as individuals. Okay. 16 And so, that motion is adopted. We changed that. 17 So now we have the original motion on the floor to adopt the 18 salaries for A and B as shown in Column 7 with the changes 19 just noted. 20 MR. HIGGINS: Correct. 21 CHR. ONO: Any further discussion on that? 22 MR. PAVAO: Yes. Regarding the amendment, subject 23 to HR doing their division process to make sure that it comes 24 out even -- 25 MR. CAMPBELL: Right. So we don't have to pay them ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 74 1 a -half -a -cent. 2 MR. PAVAO: So subject to HR doing their 3 calculations. 4 CHR. ONO: Let me add this to the discussion, a 5 matter of protocol. We can't adopt this. It has to be 6 specific to an agenda that appears on the next meeting, 7 right? So this would be a recommendation for adoption at the 8 next meeting. 9 MS. SELF: This discussion -- 10 MR. PAVAO: I believe we can. 11 MR. CAMPBELL: Says here: Address current salaries 12 and adjustments as needed. So, yes, we can. 13 MR. FRATINARDO: I have to say this again about 14 people leaving in Tier B, okay, in the green one. 15 What if someone like the prosecuting attorney, 16 who's an elected official, says, you know, I see a job that's 17 more, it is a higher pay, it's going to compensate me better. 18 Now, where is the County at with having -- do we have to do 19 is special election? How much is it going to cost the County 20 because that one person decided, well, they're not paying me 21 enough, I'm gone. 22 MS. SELF: You're talking about the prosecutor? 23 MR. FRATINARDO: About the prosecuting attorneys 24 office. 25 MS. SELF: Well, I think what would happen is the ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 75 1 deputy prosecutor would fill those shoes until the election. 2 MR. FRATINARDO: Okay. So there wouldn't be a 3 special election. 4 MS. SELF: I don't believe so. I can check that 5 out. But that's not -- 6 MR. FRATINARDO: I mean, it's something for me to 7 consider. 8 MS. SELF: Yeah. 9 MR. FRATINARDO: And I understand that we want more 10 discussion on -- let's discuss it now. We have the time. 11 We're here. So, if we want more discussion on B, let's 12 discuss it. I'm all set on -- well, let's discuss it on B. 13 So do we need to present another motion? 14 MS. SELF: No. Let's see where we're at right now. 15 You just voted -- you adopted the amendment. So we're back 16 to the main motion now. The main motion was -- 17 MR. CAMPBELL: Accept it. 18 MR. FRATINARDO: I want to address Mr. Harano's 19 concerns and Florence's concerns, if we can do that now. 20 CHR. ONO: We're still in discussion. 21 MR. HIGGINS: But they may not be voting against 22 the original motion. They did it on the amendment to the 23 motion. So we don't know how they're going to vote. 24 MR. FRATINARDO: So that's the question I have for 25 Florence and Mr. Harada (sic). Are those -- was it just that ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 76 1 specific vote, or was it the whole -- for corp. counsel down 2 to assistant prosecuting attorney, adjusting their salaries? 3 MS. IKEDA: Truthfully, I'd like to take a closer 4 look at it. I know you want to look through things and get 5 things done, but I'd like to take a look at this B section a 6 little closer than just go ahead and say okay, I agree with 7 everything. I'll go with the consensus. But at this point 8 I think I'd like to take a closer look at it. 9 MR. FRATINARDO: So my question is -- two months 10 ago we talked about -- well, I don't want to get too 11 complicated. How do we go about that? As far as the 12 specifics, what do we need to know to come to a total 13 consensus, agreement? 14 MR. CAMPBELL: Which we may never get to. 15 MR. FRATINARDO: Right. 16 MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. 17 CHR. ONO: Okay. I'm a little lost in space over 18 here. So we have the original motion. 19 MR. CAMPBELL: The motion is there. So it's either 20 we discuss it and vote on it or . . . 21 MR. HIGGINS: We should be discussing the first 22 original motion. 23 MR. PAVAO: With the amendment. 24 MR. FRATINARDO: Got it. 25 MR. CAMPBELL: With the amendment. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 77 1 CHR. ONO: Okay. From the Chair's perspective, I 2 really don't see a harm in waiting 'til the December 13th 3 meeting to adopt this. So can it be a motion that sits 4 there? 5 MS. SELF: No. 6 MR. HIGGINS: No. 7 MS. SELF: You shouldn't leave a motion on the 8 table. Either have to withdraw again or -- you've already 9 passed the amendment. 10 MR. PAVAO: You either got to approve it or deny it. 11 MR. FRATINARDO: Well, I'm ready to correct 12 salaries. 13 MR. HIGGINS: You know, I would just add to -- we 14 can delay it. But one of the -- forgot his name. He was 15 here last time, and he was here again. The gentleman -- 16 MR. FRATINARDO: Craig Masuda. 17 MR. HIGGINS: Craig. You know, he used the word 18 "hope" throughout his testimony in both of our meetings. And 19 I would say that if we adopt this today through the motion, 20 probably the number of the crowd is going to disburse on our 21 next meetings because it's going to show some tremendous 22 action. It's going to show that this Salary Commission, 23 which was in defunct for over a year, is now come to grips 24 with it and is moving to solve some problems, long overdue, 25 some salaries that haven't been raised in ten years, et ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 78 1 cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 2 So, I'm really excited over the fact that we've 3 actually come this far in our third meeting. That's all I 4 have to say. 5 CHR. ONO: Milton. 6 MR. PAVAO: While I agree, basically I agree with A 7 and B, I'm just really concerned. I'm really concerned that 8 there's no logical direction towards the figures we adopted. 9 It's like we're pulling it out of the air. I agree with it. 10 Don't get me wrong. I agree with it. 11 MR. HARANO: What part do you agree with? 12 MR. PAVAO: That they deserve the raise, and these 13 figures are in line with what we suggest. 14 I'm just concerned that there's no logical 15 explanation of how these raises came about, or how the 16 numbers came about. That's what I'm concerned with. 17 MR. FRATINARDO: Okay. So let's go back to the 18 Charter. The Charter says that we -- it will be comparable 19 to public salaries, right? 20 MR. PAVAO: I understand that, I understand that. 21 My concern, example, corp. counsel, okay. The motion on the 22 floor is that corp. counsel shall get $153,226. 23 MR. FRATINARDO: Got it. 24 MR. PAVAO: Okay. Where that figure came from? 25 How did you arrive at that? What's the logical basis for ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 79 1 that? That's what I'm concerned with. 2 MR. FRATINARDO: Got it. 3 MR. HIGGINS: Well, the logic, to me, comes from 4 their testimony, number one, and most important; and 5 secondly, that it would be comparable to their constituents 6 in other parts of our State. So, from that point of view, I 7 don't see any more information that I would need. Now -- and 8 that includes more testimony. That's not going to get me 9 pumped up one way or the other. 10 MR. FRATINARDO: And Mr. Masuda did say that'll -- 11 and Mr. Damerville said specifically that they come here to 12 get trained, and they bail and go to another prosecuting 13 attorney's office. 14 MR. PAVAO: No. I understand all of that. That is 15 not the issue. I understand what they said. I understand 16 the purpose. I understand that they need one raise. My 17 question is, how did you come up with that figure? 18 CHR. ONO: They're -- I see it as just a 19 decision-making process by this Commission which it's 20 according the Charter. It doesn't say how you're going to do 21 it. It just says that it be comparable to private- and 22 public -sector pay. 23 George. 24 MR. CAMPBELL: Yeah. And I think I understand 25 where you're -- ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 1 MR. PAVAO: Yeah. I understand that. 2 MR. CAMPBELL: I think I understand where you're 3 coming from. I think in this case what we've done -- and 4 this number could be any number along, you know, $150,000 or 5 a hundred forty or a hundred sixty, but the number that's 6 here seems like a good number for somebody that is our, you 7 know, a very important position in our County, and for the 8 corp. counsel and for the prosecutor. 9 And it doesn't prohibit us from then establishing a 10 reasonable process that we can all agree to that says, you 11 know, here's how we come up with numbers from now on. Yes. 12 this number was something that we just put on paper, but we 13 think it's an okay number for now. It gets the alignment 14 done, or at least closer to where the other counties are. 15 And then we can go back and do what we need to do to make the 16 system logical and effective and one that's fair for all the 17 individuals involved as we proceed. 18 All we're doing in this motion, at least in my 19 mind, is correcting some deficiencies that should have never 20 gone on this long. And these people, particularly in the B 21 column, have come here and put in their time way above what 22 they're getting paid. 23 And so, yes, the salaries may seem a little high. 24 But if you think about all the years they've given to this 25 County with no raise, it's -- we're not even coming close to ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 81 1 making up for that. 2 MR. PAVAO: No. I understand. 3 MR. CAMPBELL: So, in my mind, that's where the 4 number comes from. 5 MR. PAVAO: Yeah. 6 MR. CAMPBELL: It's a number that at least, yeah, 7 it seems like a big raise, but at least gets us to the point 8 that, hey, look, we care about the people that serve this 9 County, and we want to move forward and make sure that we can 10 maintain good people here. And that the people that are 11 managing the, particularly, the corp. counsel and the 12 prosecuting attorneys in our County are top notch and they're 13 paid top notch and they're able to put top notch people in 14 our County and keep them. 15 So all I'm saying that we're doing today, Milton, 16 is starting, just starting that process. And, yeah, we're 17 going to need to come up with something that's, like I said, 18 logical and fair as we move forward. 19 MR. PAVAO: I totally agree, and you're kind of 20 preaching to the choir. I totally -- 21 MR. CAMPBELL: And I know you agree with me 22 already. 23 MR. PAVAO: I totally agree. My concern is over -- 24 we adopt this. We go out on the street. Reporter comes up 25 to you -- how did you come up with that number? What are you ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 82 1 Going to tell them? I don't know? 2 CHR. ONO: Here's what I would say. I would say I'm 3 comfortable with those numbers. They're within the ranges 4 that are being paid throughout the State -- 5 MR. HIGGINS: State. 6 CHR. ONO: -- from the different counties. Because 7 I don't think we can do -- you know, I can't do some 8 mathematical approach. That becomes like a independent 9 economic study, yeah. 10 MR. FRATINARDO: When I got this a few days ago, I 11 looked at it. I went on line, and I looked at the different 12 salary raises that they had in different counties, and what 13 the other salary commissions did. And I looked at us. I 14 mean, why are they so active and we're not? And we need to 15 step up. 16 Like I said earlier, we are the government. We 17 need to step up. We have a responsibility to our 18 constituents. I have a responsibility to my constituents in 19 District 1 to make sure that they have the best -paid people 20 to present the most experience in defending our County when 21 it comes to different lawsuits and so forth and prosecuting 22 criminals. 23 And I want to be the best District Commissioner 24 that they can have. And my duties are to make sure that this 25 gets done and not kick the can down the road like it's been ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 83 1 1 kicked down the road for years. 2 CHR. ONO: I believe we've come to a point -- 3 MR. HIGGINS: Call for a question. 4 CHR. ONO: -- to call for a question. With that 5 said, I'm going to call for the question. 6 George. 7 MR. CAMPBELL: Aye. 8 MR. HIGGINS: Aye. 9 CHR. ONO: Milton. 10 MR. PAVAO: Aye. 11 CHR. ONO: Florence. 12 MS. IKEDA: Nay. 13 MR. DOW: Nay. 14 CHR. ONO: Harold. 15 MR. DOW: Nay. 16 MR. FRATINARDO: District 1, aye. 17 CHR. ONO: Nathan(sic). 18 MR. HARANO: Aye. 19 CHR. ONO: Chair votes aye. 20 So, the motion is carried. 21 We've come to the end of our agenda, I believe. 22 MS. YAMADA: Excuse me, Mr. Chair. Can I clarify, 23 it was two noes and six ayes? 24 MS. SELF: Did you -- 25 MR. DOW: I was a no. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 1 MS. SELF: Okay. 2 MR. FRATINARDO: Question. 3 MR. PAVAO: There were two noes, yeah. 4 MS. SELF: You were also going to allow tweaking by 5 HR to make it. 6 MR. PAVAO: That was an amendment. 7 MS. SAKAMOTO: Is this off of the Maui numbers? 8 I'm sorry. I just want to make sure. Is it on the Column 7. 9 MR. CAMPBELL: Column 7. 10 MR. PAVAO: 7. 11 MR. CAMPBELL: Column 7. 12 CHR. ONO: It's Column 7. 13 MS. SAKAMOTO: Okay. Column 7. 14 CHR. ONO: So, Jennifer, you noted that for the 15 Column 7 for the fire chief and deputy -- 16 Was it that one? 17 MR. CAMPBELL: Yes. 18 CHR. ONO: -- we're adopting the Maui's -- 19 MR. CAMPBELL: Maui number. 20 MS. SAKAMOTO: Just for those three. 21 CHR. ONO: Yes. 22 MR. FRATINARDO: Question to the Chair, District 1, 23 question. 24 CHR. ONO: Yes. 25 MR. FRATINARDO: Is this retroactive? ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 85 1 CHR. ONO: Well - 2 MR. PAVAO: I would speak against that. I think 3 we -- 4 CHR. ONO: Need a motion. Do you want to discuss it 5 right now? 6 MR. FRATINARDO: It needs to be discussed. Is it 7 or not? 8 CHR. ONO: Let's have a motion. 9 MR. FRATINARDO: District 1 makes a motion to 10 discussion whether these salaries that we just approved are 11 retroactive. 12 CHR. ONO: I would suggest you make it more 13 specific. Is there a date for retroactivity? 14 MR. HIGGINS: An effective, you have to have an 15 effective date. 16 MR. FRATINARDO: To discuss if -- 17 MS. SELF: Maybe you would want to entertain a 18 small discussion to where they can float a motion, if a 19 motion is going to be -- 20 CHR. ONO: Okay. 21 MS. SELF: Sounds like he just needs some 22 discussion. 23 MR. FRATINARDO: I withdraw my motion. 24 CHR. ONO: Okay. Let's just put it as a discussion 25 item, retroactivity or not. Floor is open. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 1 MR. PAVAO: I'd like to speak on that. 2 I think what we're doing is just a tremendous 3 increase. And as Glynis said, or somebody said at a previous 4 meeting, it is that -- oh, Deanna said that. 5 It's the County's responsibility to find the money. 6 She made it really clear. So, this is a tremendous burden. 7 To have them go retroactive I think is being really 8 unreasonable because it's such a great amount. 9 I would prefer to set a date from here on, this 10 shall be salary. But to go retroactive, I think, would be 11 grossly unfair on the County's budget. 12 MR. CAMPBELL: I agree. 13 MR. FRATINARDO: And that's my question. That's 14 why I'm asking. Is it or not? 15 MR. CAMPBELL: Because of what we've just done, I 16 think it would be unfair to the budget process. 17 MR. HIGGINS: Absolutely. 18 MR. FRATINARDO: So, when are these put into effect? 19 MR. PAVAO: We can set an effective date, whatever 20 we decide. 21 MR. FRATINARDO: Are we going to discuss that? 22 MR. PAVAO: Actually, we approved it. So it's 23 effective. 24 MR. FRATINARDO: It's effective now. 25 MR. HIGGINS: Well, can't we put -- ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 87 1 MS. SAKAMOTO: I think you folks can ask for a 2 date. 3 MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. 4 MR. PAVAO: I would say January 1st. 5 MR. FRATINARDO: Milton, when they make their -- 6 MS. SELF: Let me -- this is Amy. 7 Jennifer, do you know -- maybe you need to find it 8 strict in here. Because I don't know when the -- whenever 9 they -- whatever effective date they give, I don't know how 10 they do -- we need to -- 11 MS. SAKAMOTO: We can process it per whatever 12 effective date is approved. 13 MS. SELF: But you'll need some time, right, for 14 the next payroll, or whatever? 15 MS. SAKAMOTO: It would be nice if we could make it 16 effective on the next pay period. 17 MR. FRATINARDO: Which is -- which will be when? 18 MS. SAKAMOTO: Well, our pay periods are the -- it 19 starts at the beginning of the month. 20 MR. FRATINARDO: So, January 1st would be plenty of 21 time for you? 22 MS. SAKAMOTO: That would be sufficient. 23 MS. SELF: Okay. I just want to make sure that -- 24 MS. SAKAMOTO: Yeah. Because then we have to -- 25 yeah. There's forms that need to be processed. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 88 1 MR. FRATINARDO: Do you need longer time, another 2 month? 3 MS. SAKAMOTO: That's up to the Commission. I 4 mean, I thought this was -- 5 MR. FRATINARDO: Well, you're the one -- 6 MS. SAKAMOTO: -- tying it to the -- 7 MR. FRATINARDO: -- advising us. 8 MS. SAKAMOTO: -- payroll. 9 MR. FRATINARDO: Okay. 10 MR. PAVAO: I guess the bigger question is, are you 11 comfortable with January 1st? 12 MS. SAKAMOTO: That's the Commission's role to 13 determine that. 14 MR. PAVAO: No, no. Are you comfortable. Because 15 you have to process it, are you comfortable with January 1st? 16 MS. SAKAMOTO: We just have to send something over 17 to Finance so that they know -- we have to kind of summarize 18 the total amount that this is going to cost us. And we have 19 to let Finance know. And then we work with Finance to 20 generate the form 13s. 21 MR. PAVAO: Okay. Is January 1st doable? 22 MS. SAKAMOTO: Yeah. Because this is almost done 23 with that (inaudible). 24 MR. PAVAO: Okay. 25 MR. FRATINARDO: So we're just in the discussion ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 1 phase right now, for the Board, the Chair. 2 So we need a motion? 3 MS. SELF: If you want to make it an effective -- 4 MR. FRATINARDO: Effective date. 5 MS. SELF: -- date. 6 MR. FRATINARDO: Well, we need to make an effective 7 date. 8 MR. PAVAO: Yes. 9 MR. FRATINARDO: Because these people are going 10 to -- I mean, these people are going to ask us. 11 MR. PAVAO: Yes. 12 MR. FRATINARDO: Well, you're going to raise our 13 salaries. When are we going to get paid? 14 I'd like to make a motion to set an effective date 15 for these salary increases. 16 MR. DOW: So which is? 17 MR. FRATINARDO: Which is January 1st, 2018. 18 MR. PAVAO: Okay. Second. 19 CHR. ONO: It's been moved and seconded that we 20 make the effective date January 1st, 2018, for these pay 21 increases. Any discussion? 22 MR. HARANO: I have questions. What's the delta 23 between Columns 7 and 4? I don't know what the delta is, the 24 change. 25 MR. PAVAO: 7 and 4. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 90 1 MR. HARANO: Yeah. 2 MR. PAVAO: For the brown area, it's five percent. 3 CHR. ONO: Well, no. 4 MR. PAVAO: 6 -- 5 CHR. ONO: What he means is the total amount. 6 MR. HARANO: I'm sorry. I apologize. I'm a 7 numbers person. So, you know, I like to see what the 8 difference is between 7 -- 9 MR. DOW: How much more per year is this 10 going to cost? 11 MS. SAKAMOTO: The total? 12 MR. HARANO: Yeah. 13 MS. SAKAMOTO: I think that's what I was 14 explaining. We would have to calculate what the entire cost 15 is going to be. 16 MR. HARANO: Okay. So we don't know what -- yeah. 17 I mean, just based on this spreadsheet right now, we don't 18 know what the total, the difference is, right? 19 MR. DOW: Right. 20 MR. HIGGINS: But the only thing we have on the 21 table is -- 22 MR. HARANO: No. I'm talking about -- 23 MR. HIGGINS: -- the dates -- 24 MR. HARANO: -- dollars. 25 MS. SAKAMOTO: The dollar amount. ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 91 1 MR. HIGGINS: -- effective dates. It's all said 2 and done. 3 MR. HARANO: I'm talking about dollars. I don't 4 care what the increase is. I'm talking about dollars. Give 5 me the bottom line. 6 MR. HIGGINS: Well, doesn't matter. 7 CHR. ONO: We have the next meeting, and this will 8 be on the agenda, and the department will come back with 9 their analysis of the details of this. And as part of the 10 background, Nathan (sic), we're told by the finance director 11 that the objective of this Commission is to set the salaries. 12 We do not decide whether or not the County can afford it or 13 not. 14 So, just basically -- in the meantime, we have 15 until the next meeting. And we'll get this information from 16 the department. And I'm sure they're going to consult with 17 the Department of Finance, too. So I don't see any harm in 18 making that information available to this body, so at least 19 we know what the -- 20 MS. SAKAMOTO: And we'll provide -- 21 CHR. ONO: -- financial impact -- 22 MS. SAKAMOTO: -- the updated figures. 23 CHR. ONO: -- would be. 24 MS. SAKAMOTO: It might be like a dollar or so off. 25 MR. PAVAO: Yeah. It shouldn't be more than a ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 92 1 dollar. 2 MS. SAKAMOTO: Yeah. Usually it's just to make it 3 even. 4 MR. PAVAO: In fact, maybe several cents. It's 5 just got to be divisible by twenty-four. 6 MR. FRATINARDO: My motion's still on the table. 7 CHR. ONO: Right. It is. 8 MR. HIGGINS: It's been moved and seconded. 9 MR. FRATINARDO: So the effective date that I 10 made -- 11 MR. HIGGINS: Well, we have to vote on that. 12 MR. FRATINARDO: But I'm going to repeat it. It's 13 January 1st, 2018, and they'll get back to us if there's any 14 problems with them setting that salary by that date. 15 CHR. ONO: Okay. 16 MR. HARANO: Another question. 17 CHR. ONO: Go ahead. 18 MR. HARANO: The increase in salary provides 19 immediate, you know, that gratification, right? Got this 20 raise, you know, number one. First one, the director gets a 21 $22,000 raise come January 1st. 22 We have the issue of individuals in these positions 23 quitting or looking for employment elsewhere because of the 24 low salaries. What about the non-cash compensation, you 25 know, like the benefits, salary deferment or whatever the ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 17 MR. DOW: Aye. 18 MR. FRATINARDO: Aye, District 1. 19 MR. HARANO: Aye. 20 CHR. ONO: Chair votes aye. 21 MR. HIGGINS: January 1. 22 CHR. ONO: So, where do we stand on this thing? 23 I believe we've come to the end of our agenda. So 24 the next meeting is scheduled for December the 13th. 25 MR. PAVAO: Excuse me. Is there any way that can ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 93 1 equivalent to the 401K or the pension? Not something that -- 2 CHR. ONO: That' not part of the role. 3 MR. HARANO: Okay. Thank you. 4 MR. FRATINARDO: We discussed that. We discussed 5 that in the first meeting. 6 MR. HARANO: Right. 7 MR. FRATINARDO: It's just -- ours is just salary. 8 Thank you for asking though. 9 CHR. ONO: Okay. And we'll call for the question. 10 George. 11 MR. CAMPBELL: Aye. 12 MR. HIGGINS: Aye. 13 CHR. ONO: Jim. 14 Milton. 15 MR. PAVAO: Aye. 16 MS. IKEDA: Aye. 17 MR. DOW: Aye. 18 MR. FRATINARDO: Aye, District 1. 19 MR. HARANO: Aye. 20 CHR. ONO: Chair votes aye. 21 MR. HIGGINS: January 1. 22 CHR. ONO: So, where do we stand on this thing? 23 I believe we've come to the end of our agenda. So 24 the next meeting is scheduled for December the 13th. 25 MR. PAVAO: Excuse me. Is there any way that can ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 94 1 be changed? 2 CHR. ONO: December the 13th? 3 MR. PAVAO: Yeah. 4 CHR. ONO: Certainly can. Glynis is going to have 5 to check in on this because I believe the next meeting was 6 supposed to be in the County Council Room. 7 MS. YAMADA: Correct. 8 MR. PAVAO: Can that be changed to either the week 9 earlier or the week after? I mean, selfish reasons. Because 10 I have a conflict with the 13th, 12th, whatever it is. 11 MR. FRATINARDO: May I say something? 12 CHR. ONO: Sure. 13 MR. HIGGINS: No. 14 MR. FRATINARDO: By us doing this, I don't think -- 15 and people were asking me, oh, why, why, why. Well, if we 16 don't do it now, just think how difficult it's going to be in 17 five years or ten years to give raises to these positions, 18 how expensive it's going to be. So I say this is not a -- 19 we're not at a loss for doing this. We're actually making an 20 investment in -- we're actually saving the County now by 21 doing this because it's only going to cost more later. 22 CHR. ONO: We were talking about the date of the 23 next meeting. 24 MR. CAMPBELL: The 6th or the 20th is what you're 25 suggesting? ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 95 1 MR. PAVAO: Yeah. Either the week before or the 2 week after. I know I'm being selfish. But I enjoy attending 3 the meetings, and I can't attend on the 13th. 4 MR. CAMPBELL: Well, you know the Council's going 5 to be in Kona on the 20th, so they won't be here. 6 MS. YAMADA: They'll be here through video 7 conferencing. 8 MR. CAMPBELL: Oh, that's right. 9 MS. YAMADA: So, it's not available. 10 MR. PAVAO: What about this room? 11 MS. YAMADA: I'd have to check with the mayor's 12 office. If you could give me some dates, I can check with 13 the Council if it's available and can check on the Puna 14 Conference Room. 15 CHR. ONO: Dates. Glynis is looking for dates. 16 Preferably give her one date. 17 MR. FRATINARDO: Monday. 18 CHR. ONO: Milton. 19 MR. PAVAO: Florence can't make it on the 6th. I 20 can't make it on the 13th. Anybody else any date they can't 21 make it on? 22 MR. HIGGINS: Does it have to be a Wednesday? 23 MR. PAVAO: No. 24 MR. CAMPBELL: And I can't make it on the 18th, 25 but -- which is a Monday. But I can do any other time in ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 Page 961 1 that week of the 19th, 20th, 21st, or 22nd. 2 MS. IKEDA: What about the 14th? 3 MR. CAMPBELL: 14th works, too. 4 MS. YAMADA: Let me go next door and see when the 5 conference room would be available from the 14th on to the 6 22nd. 7 MR. PAVAO: 14th, I can't do that, so . . . 8 MS. YAMADA: Okay. The week of the -- 9 MR. HIGGINS: 11th. 10 MS. YAMADA: -- 11th. I'll check from the 11th on 11 to the 22nd. I'll be right back. 12 (Off the record.) 13 CHR. ONO: Meeting back in order. 14 December 21st looks like the day for the meeting. 15 And Glynis, where will it be? 16 MS. YAMADA: Council Room. 17 CHR. ONO: Council Room. 18 MS. YAMADA: Yes. 19 CHR. ONO: Council Room, perfect. December 21st, 20 which is a -- 21 MS. YAMADA: Thursday. 22 CHR. ONO: Thursday, December the 1st(sic). 23 Ten o'clock a.m. in the County Council Room. 24 Motion to adjourn. 25 I want to thank this Commission for its focus in ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 97 addressing a long-standing deficiency. And as you can see, it was really really hard work, you know, to come to some kind of consensus over here to address it. We still have the other half of it and the bottom part of the thing to deal with. So we'll be in discussions for that. So I just want to thank everybody and the patience of Kurt there. With that -- MS. YAMADA: Mr. Chair, can I please confirm we're cancelling the December 13th meeting and rescheduling it to the 21st? right? adjourned. CHR. ONO: That's correct. MS. YAMADA: Thank you. MS. SELF: At ten o'clock in the Council room, CHR. ONO: Thank you, everybody. Meeting is (Meeting adjourned at 11:39 a.m.) ISLAND COURT REPORTING & TRANSCRIPTION SERVICES (808) 933-9800 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 STATE OF HAWAII COUNTY OF HAWAII 98 ss. I, KURT FAUT, CSR 418, a Certified Court Reporter in the State of Hawaii, do hereby certify that the foregoing pages are a true and correct transcription of the stenographic notes taken at the meeting had in the above matter. Dated this 4th day of December, 2017. KURT FAUT, CS$J 4418 sa1 xM% z ct a pan t..; ¢..1' 1%, COURTISIAND '•'TING & TRANSCRIPTION :I • •11 Mr. Kurt Faut, Certified Court Reporter, transcribed the aforementioned proceedings of the Salary Commission at its meeting held on November 27, 2017. Glynis Yamada, Secretary, Salary Commission, had incorporated some minor formatting/housekeeping revisions throughout the transcript. (Note: Also present at the meeting were: Michele Lamkin, Renee Schoen, Ryan Caday, Kelven Waltjen, Jeff Malate, Robert Becker, Tharrington Trusdell, and Nancy Cook-Lauer.) Respectfully Submitted, Glynis Yamada, Secretary APPROVED: Hugh Y. Ono, P. E., Chair Salary Commission PUBLIC STATEMENT REGISTRATION FORM SALARY COMMISSION COUNTY OF HAWAII HILO,HAWAII Date: 1 II 2,1 11 ^1 (Please print clearly) Support Oppose Comment Please list the item(s)you will be speaking on: Communication No. OR Subject/Topic: . GA /60-/ Oki,LokiL Name: /, � � 1+-3IU?i�l P� —r �— `Representing: N` (Pl ase indicate whether Self or Organization) ***For official use only: Speaker No. II PUBLIC STATEMENT REGISTRATION FORM SALARY COMMISSION COUNTY OF HAWAII 7. 1-7HILO,HAWAII Date: (Please print clearly) /Support Oppose Comment Please list the item(s) you will be speaking on: Communication No. 1 7 d OR Subject/Topic: Name: �i. !/(' /14#04P1k. 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