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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMIN FC 2021/05/18 2020-2022Committee on Finance 1111 Session Hawaii County Building 25 Aupuni Street Hilo, Hawaii May 18, 2021 CALL TO The regular meeting of the Committee on Finance was called to order at ORDER: 9:02 a.m., in the Council Chambers, Hilo, by Mr. Matt Kdneali`i-Kleinfelder, Chair. ROLL C'AT.T.- Present: Mr. Matt Kdneali`i-Kleinfelder, Chair Ms. Heather L. Kimball, Vice Chair (via videoconference) Mr. Aaron S. Y. Chung, Member Ms. Maile Medeiros David, Member (via videoconference from Kona) Mr. Holeka Goro Inaba, Member (via videoconference from Kona) Ms. Ashley L. Kierkiewicz, Member Ms. Susan L. K. Lee Loy, Member Mr. Herbert M. "Tim" Richards III, Member (came in later) Ms. Rebecca Villegas, Member STATEMENTS The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, FROM THE Statements from the Public on Agenda Items. PUBLIC ON AGENDA ITEMS: The following individuals registered to speak and came forward when called by the Chair: Sandra Demoruelle: Comm. 258 22, comment. Jerry Warren: Comm. 258 22, comment. CHR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. Well mahalo for the testimony and for joining us this morning. Mr. Clerk, how about we go to our first order of business, sir? COMMUNI- The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, CATIONS: Communications. Comm. 30.9: REPORT OF FUND TRANSFERS AUTHORIZED: APRIL 1 —15, 2021 From Human Resources Director William V. Brilhante Jr., dated April 15, 2021. FC -11 May 18, 2021 Vote on Comm. 30.9: Ms. Villegas moved to close file on Comm. 30.9. Seconded Filed by Ms. Kierkiewicz and carried by the following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Chung David, Inaba, Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Lee Loy, Villegas, and Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder – 8. Noes: None. Absent: Committee Member Richards –1. Excused: None. Comm. 3 1.1 l: REPORT OF CHANGE ORDERS AUTHORIZED: APRIL 1 – 15. 2021 From Finance Director Deanna Sako, dated April 20, 2021, transmitting the above report pursuant to Hawaii County Code Section 2-12.3. Motion to Close File: Ms. Villegas moved to close file on Comm. 31.11. Seconded by Ms. Kierkiewicz. CHR KANEALI'I-KLEINFELDER: Council Members, any discussion? I see Ms. Lee Loy with her light on. Go ahead, Ms. Lee Loy. MS. LEE LOY: Thank you, Chair. Deanna, I'm not sure if this is you or someone from DPW (Department of Public Works), but I'm noticing a change order for Kilauea Avenue already. And I just wanted some explanation as to the scope of work that change order has covered. From what I can see it's, curbs—or the sidewalks and the driveways. One the cost, and how we ended up getting to change order amount. And if it was just not covered in the scope of services for the contract itself. (Note: At this time, Finance Director Deanna Sako came forward to address the members of the Committee.) MS. SAKO: Yes, I have a little bit information but not a lot. So if you need more, we can still follow-up with Public Works. But it is for the curbs and the sidewalks that needed to be replaced. But also for the existing water and gas lines that had to be lowered, because there wasn't sufficient clearance in the roadway. And I know that's happened before, where maps or drawings are approved and historically, and we're talking decades ago—and then when they start digging, that's not actually where the lines are. So sometimes we do have to move those, and that can be a costly item. MS. LEE LOY: Yeah, maybe if my colleagues would entertain this, I'd actually like to table this till the end of the meeting. Because this is another construction project, right? Similar to that of Kalanianaole, which we saw construction drawings not taking into account all of the utilities. And then, you know, not Page 2 FC -11 May 18, 2021 beingI think some communication gaps between the work that's being done that is resulting in a change order. But for this particular project, Deanna, this one is a STIP (State Transportation Improvement Projects) project also, correct? MS. SAKO: Correct. So it should be covered 80 percent by the federal, and our portion will be 20 percent. MS. LEE LOY: Yeah, and I think the other question is, if the Administration and members of the department is listening, I want to make sure that this—although it's a STIP project, and we're doing a change order, the cost adjustment isn't that great to the County, I just want to ensure that the timeline of this project continues to be the 24 months in which this project was bid out on. So that's my questions, if any other members have questions around this particular communication, but I would be offering up an amendment to table this communication till the department is available to answer my questions. MS. SAKO: And I am reaching out to the department. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Ms. Kierkiewicz. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you, Chair. Director Sako, just a couple of things. MS. SAKO: Yes. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: This particular change order, I found very hard to read. I don't know if anybody else is struggling. I mean, it's very difficult. It just seems printed out different from last time. Maybe you want to check out my version, but it was hard to read. Just wanted to share that with you. It's very pixelated. MS. SAKO: I'm not sure about the pixilation part. We can't control that. I think that's a scanning question. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Okay. MS. SAKO: But I know the comment was made last time about the size. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Yeah. Maybe enlarging. MS. SAKO: So we did enlarge it. It's just that some of these have been submitted already, so the future ones are in bigger font. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Got it. Thank you. MS. SAKO: They did print mine out in bigger font. Page 3 FC -11 May 18, 2021 MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you. The other question I had, and you know, I can direct this to R&D (Research and Development) Director Adams, but you know, he's new Administration. Specifically Disaster Economic Recovery Plan, noticed that the original contract date was from January 2019, so that's pre-COVID. Was this related to the Kilauea Economic Recovery Plan, you know, are we getting some kind of technical assistance from what is this? MS. SAKO: I believe we are. And because of COVID and other things, if they haven't fulfilled the commitment, we have been extending the contracts. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Okay. So it's beyond the Economic Recovery Plan that we were delivered for Kilauea Recovery, it's just ongoing technical assistance? MS. SAKO: I believe so. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Okay, great. Thanks for the clarification. And I do support Council Member Lee Loy in her effort to table this communication till the end of the meeting so that we can get more answers from the department. Thank you, Chair. I yield. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you. Okay, any comments from other Council Members? Nope, not at this time, okay. Deanna, I have a question. And I raised the same question before, which was theI see normal street projects that we do, you're resurfacing. But the inclusions of the sidewalks and the driveways for every residence along Kilauea was I'm sure costly. But just again remind me, because I think we did discuss this at Council before, what was the reasoning behind doing every driveway along Kilauea Avenue? Because it's not cheap, I'm just going to say that. MS. SAKO: I don't know that they're doing every driveway, but they have to have it fit into the road. So I believe they're doing that edge part that's in the County right-of-way, from the end of the person's property to the street. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. MS. SAKO: So—and that, you would have to ask Public Works. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. And then cost -wise, you know, finance -wise this was all taken into account at the beginning of the project, every single piece of this or? MS. SAKO: No, these pieces apparently were not, and that's why we have the change order before us. Page 4 FC -11 May 18, 2021 CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: So the pieces that were not, were what? MS. SAKO: So like the report says, "To reconstruct the existing concrete curb and sidewalk currently in this repair, and then lower the existing water and gas lines that don't have sufficient minimum cover from the top of the pipe to the bottom of the roadway." CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: So I mean, sorry, so it's saying sidewalks and driveways were being added on now? MS. SAKO: So and again, just to clarify it's not the whole driveway, it's just the driveway connector from— CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: The piece that connects from the County roadway to the residence. MS. SAKO: To the edge of the person's lot. And, you know, I'm sure they did look at the sidewalks and what not. Many of the sidewalks along Kilauea are not in good shape to begin with, some are barley there. So I think now they're installing the sidewalks as well. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: I've been watching as they've gone, and this has been maybe six to twelve months already. Just given other county projects that I see, and different areas, this one caught my eye, because not only we're redoing the surface of the roadway, which is great and much needed, but we're also including the build of sidewalks and driveway entrances along the entire section of Kilauea Avenue is being rebuilt. So fairly costly, and just wondering how those requirements were created, and the funding as well from the county and federal level. MS. SAKO: So I think part of it is the Complete Streets program. And then to qualify for federal funding I think the standards are higher as well. But that's why we're asking DPW to come over. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay, thank you. So if you want to make a motion, go ahead, Ms. Lee Loy. Page 5 FC -11 Vote on Motion to Table: (Approved) May 18, 2021 Ms. Lee Loy moved to table Comm. 31.11 to the end of the agenda. Seconded by Ms. Kierkiewicz and carried by the following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Chung, David, Inaba, Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Lee Loy, Villegas, and Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder — 8. Noes: None. Absent: Committee Member Richards —1. Excused: None. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: We can pick this back up at the end of the meeting. Mr. Clerk, next item. Comm. 57.1 REPORT OF DONATIONS RECEIVED FROM THE DANIEL R. SAYRE MEMORIAL FOUNDATION ON APRIL 1, 2021 From Finance Director Deanna Sako, dated April 30, 2021, transmitting the above report pursuant to Resolution No. 468-20. Motion to Close File: Mr. Villegas moved to close file on Comm. 57.1. Seconded by Ms. Kierkiewicz. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Our Fire personnel is here. Sir, do you want to come up and tell us a little about this? Good morning, Mr. Okinaka. How you doing? (Note: At this time, Assistant Fire Chief Darwin Okinaka came forward to address the members of the Committee.) MR. OKINAKA: Good morning, everybody. Darwin Okinaka, Assistant Fire Chief/Emergency Operations. Yeah, basically I just wanted to come and share our extreme gratitude once again, for the Sayre Foundation and the donors who donate to that foundation. They've been awesome over the years, and never seem to surprise us with the donations that they give us. But this specific apparatus, is stationed at the South Kohala Fire Station along Queen K. And is just about ready to be placed in service, where we're working on familiarization training with our personnel to make sure they know how to operate the apparatus properly and safely. And we'll have it in place. Yeah, you know, any questions I'm happy to answer, if anything. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you. Thank you for being here as well. And the Sayres are an amazing foundation, as well as an amazing couple. MR.OKINAKA: Definitely. Page 6 FC -11 May 18, 2021 CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Council Members, any discussion? MR.INABA: Chair? CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Mr. Inaba, go ahead. MR. INABA: Aloha Kakahiaka. I just wanted to say thank you, again. I was able to attend the blessing for this big dog truck at the South Kohala Fire Station, and wanted to mahalo again former Chief Rosario and Chief Bergin for heading up to Louisiana. I believe it is to make sure this apparatus is exactly as our Fire Department needs it. So mahalo to the Sayres, and to those Chiefs for going up. Chair, I yield. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Mahalo, Mr. Inaba. MS. DAVID: Mr. Chair? CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Go ahead, Ms. David. MS. DAVID: Thank you, good morning. And I just want to say mahalo to our Fire Department for their efforts. And also ditto or repeat, I know the Sayres know how much we appreciate all of their graciousness and goodness in supporting the Fire Department. So I just wanted to extend my mahalo to them as well. I yield, thanks. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Council Member David. Here in Hilo? Seeing none. Mahalo for your time, Mr. Okinaka, appreciate it. And then again, you know, from the County of Hawaii, a very large mahalo to the Daniel Sayre Foundation for your continued support of our Fire Department. MR. OKINAKA: Thank you. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Mr. Clerk, motion is on the floor to close file on Communication 57.1. All in favor? Vote on Comm. 57.1 The motion to close file on Comm. 57.1 was carried by the Filed following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Chung, David, Inaba, Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Lee Loy, Villegas, and Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder — 8. Noes: None. Absent: Committee Member Richards —1. Excused: None. Page 7 FC -11 CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Next order of business, sir. May 18, 2021 Comm. 85.1: THIRD QUARTER CLAIMS REPORT: JANUARY 1 — MARCH 31, 2021 From Claims Investigator/Adjustor Clifford D. Victorine III, dated April 22, 2021, transmitting the above report pursuant to Section 2-9 of the Hawaii County Code. Motion to Close File: Ms. Villegas moved to close file on Comm. 85.1. Seconded by Ms. Kierkiewicz. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Council Members any discussion? We do have a member from Corporation Counsel here. Did you want to come up, and just give us a brief rundown of what this is? Since you're here, and you took the time to be here. (Note: At this time, Claims Investigator/Adjustor Clifford Victorine came forward to address the members of the Committee.) MR. VICTORINE: Hi, Clifford Victorine, Investigator with the Office of Corporation Counsel. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: This tells me it's pretty simple, looks like vehicles mirror damage by HPD (Hawai`i Police Department) Officer. MR. VICTORINE: Yeah. We had just this one claim that was settled, basically paid, during this time. An officer was at night, at a domestic walked into the garage way to assist. And walked between cars, and one of the cars mirror was sticking out. Ended up solidly hitting walking into the mirror, and just ripped it right off the car, in an attempt to get there in a hurry. So basically that's what happened. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you for that. And everything's been taken care of? MR. VICTORINE: Yup. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Everyone's happy? MR. VICTORINE: Yup. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Beautiful, okay. Thank you, Mr. Victorine for being here this morning, appreciate your time. MR. VICTORINE: Thank you. Page 8 FC -11 May 18, 2021 CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay, we have a motion on the floor to file Communication 85. 1, all in favor? Vote on Comm. 85.1: The motion to close file on Comm. 85.1 was carried by Filed the following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Chung David, Inaba, Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Lee Loy, Villegas, and Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder – 8. Noes: None. Absent: Committee Member Richards –1. Excused: None. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Next order of business, Communication 248. Comm. 248: CERTIFICATION OF NET TAXABLE REAL PROPERTY VALUE FOR TAX YEAR 2021-2022 From Finance Director Deanna Sako, dated April 29, 2021, transmitting the above Report pursuant to Chapter 19, Section 19-90(d) of the Hawaii County Code. The certified total of net taxable real property is $36,964,647,545. Motion to Close File: Ms. Villegas moved to close file on Comm. 248. Seconded by Ms. Kierkiewicz. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: We do have Ms. Miura here. If you would please come up and just discuss with this, briefly summarize what's in front of us today. Thank you for putting this out. And then I will go to any Council Member questions if that may arise. (Note: At this time, Real Property Tax Administrator Lisa Miura came forward to address the members of the Committee.) MS. MIURA: Good morning Council, Lisa Miura Real Property Tax Administrator. The certified assessment is what the County Administration utilizes to prepare your budget. And of the—when we provide the certified values by County Code, we have to take out 50 percent of the properties under appeal. And the 50 percent, applies to the amount of appeal in dispute. And so what you're left with, is a tax base of which you calculate the budget on. And so as of the certified value time, there was 250 appeals filed as compared to 687 last year. So it's a very low amount. And it's not because we didn't raise the values. It indicates up above the values went up by more than $1 billion. But it has more to do with the market, it's very Page 9 FC -11 May 18, 2021 high right now and in 2021 it continues to get higher. So I believe the newspaper and the media have been putting that out there, and I think people are aware when they looked at their assessment. But other than that we're here to answer any of your questions that you may have, regarding our certified report. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Director. Council Members, any questions? MS. KIMBALL: Matt, if I may? CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Go ahead, Ms. Kimball. MS. KIMBALL: Thank you. Good morning, Lisa. I have one quick question, and this derived from a conversation that we had at HSAC (Hawai`i State Association of Counties) last week about the valuation of properties that are identified as resort properties. Can you talk a little bit about how those valuations are established with that particular category? MS. MIURA: Are you talking about the Hotel/Resorts, or those that are classified? MS. KIMBALL: Yes. The Hotel/Resorts, please. Again, it came up in HSAC as part of our conversation, because of some changes with how Maui did the valuation. So I'm curious how we're doing it. MS. MIURA: Okay, hold on. So all of the counties, I'm not sure what it pertained to on the conversation. But I can just give you an overview of what we did, and what we are aware that the other counties did. So the hotel and resort tax class is really the big hotels and resorts, so that was handled a little bit differently this year because of COVID. Like many different businesses, it had an effect on their income. However when it came to hotels and resorts in particular, it really affected their market ability, and what they were able to even turn around and sell the property for. Each of the counties within Hawaii did a study, and came up with a conclusion of an average discount that each hotel was given. And I believed it ranged, depending on the island, from 10 percent to about 20 percent. On our island, and the other counties there were hotels that did a lot of renovations. And so if your hotel did renovations, we couldn't do a 20 percent or a decrease adjustment based on last year's value because we have to take into account what your renovations are, because your property did improve. So when you look at the net assessed value compared to last year, in some cases people did see an increase. And we did receive calls from those hotels, and we explained what the renovation was. I was trying to figure out from Keita if any of the hotels appealed their value this year, and I don't believe we have any appeals from hotels. Page 10 FC -11 May 18, 2021 We did do a lot of outreach, and we did try and talk to a lot of the hotels about what our process was. But it is based on the market ability, as well as knowing where the other islands stood. And Maui County did pay for a white paper that really broke down the difference in the discounts for their island. We didn't pay for white paper, City and County and Kauai didn't, but Maui did share the information. Does that sort of answer your question? MS. KIMBALL: Yeah, that does. And that was the conversation that we had. Was that Maui had offered a discount to the hotels and resorts, because of particular circumstances related to COVID. Presumably this discount is temporary? MS. MIURA: Absolutely. MS. KIMBALL: Okay, and you'll revisit that again for the next year? MS. MIURA: It's already removed for 2022. MS. KIMBALL: Okay, great. Thank you so much. MS. MIURA: We're not making that mistake of leaving it on by accident. MS. KIMBALL: Very good. You know, I certainly appreciate that the economy affected the resort industry, more so than any other component of the industry. And I thank you for your clarification Lisa, I appreciate it. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Aloha, Ms. Kimball. Ms. Villegas, go ahead. MS. VILLEGAS: Aloha, Lisa. Thank you for being here today. I just wanted to quickly compliment you, this has been such an intense year. So many challenges, and so many variables. And your office has done an extraordinary job. And for us to be navigating our way out of a year of a global pandemic and such economic downturn, and be looking at this increase in our overall budget with a decrease in complaints with the public related to that, I just want to thank you. I had somebody say to me the other day, that they were in your office and working with your staff and they had an incredible experience. And they felt cared about, they felt that the people they were working with knew what they were doing and they were articulate and responsive, and really just made their experience a completely positive one. So I just wanted to let you know, and thank you, and thank your team. Because that goes a long way, a long way for people to have positive experience when interacting with positions in government and Administration and Civil Service. Page 11 FC -11 May 18, 2021 So I just wanted to thank you. I know that a lot of that, is related to your leadership and your support of your staff. And your constant availability, and being really a great manager and leader. So thank you, I appreciate that. Appreciate you guys. MS. MIURA: Thank you. We'll pass it on to the staff. MS. VILLEGAS: Alright. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Mahalo, Ms. Villegas. Mr. Clerk, let the record reflect that Mr. Richards has joined us, thank you. Any other questions or comments? Okay, seeing none. Lisa, mahalo for your time. I do have a question for you. Is it possible to see a side by side report of totals, maybe gross totals for all RPT (Real Property Tax) values? But as well maybe total values for the districts, so we can see where the growth has happened, in more of an easier form to view, than trying to flip page by page. MS. MIURA: Oh, okay. So on the certification there's a summary so you want me to just pull out the summary and send it to you all? CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Yeah. Basically to see that summary, especially given, I mean what we're seeing as far as the real estate market, and growth from, you know, off island folks moving here. I just would be interested to see what the evaluation is, and understand what effect that's having on our community. Especially our residential, and homeowner classes. MS. MIURA: Would you like it broken down by Council District, and the summary that has each tax class within each Council District? CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Yes. Like a Council District summary, side by side. As well as just an overall summary. MS. MIURA: Okay. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Does that make sense? MS. MIURA: Yeah, it does. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. MS. MIURA: It's in here, so we'll just takeout the sheets and then put that together. Yeah. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: I mean just basic, just for viewable purposes. Page 12 FC -11 May 18, 2021 MS. MIURA: Yeah, no problem. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. And then can we submit to each Council Member as well? MS. MIURA: How do you guys want me to submit that, do I submit it through the Clerk's Office or do I? Yeah, okay, Jeanette saying yes. I'll submit it to the Clerk's Office. Thank you. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you. Yeah, because my question really is about growth. So that way I don't have to ask you any questions, I can see it via the data. Okay, thank you. Okay, Council Members any other questions? Nope, okay. Motion on the floor is to file Communication 248, all in favor? Vote on Comm. 248: The motion to close file on Comm. 248 was carried by Filed the following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Chung David, Inaba, Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Lee Loy, Richards, Villegas, and Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder — 9. Noes: None. Absent: None. Excused: None. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you for your time today. Okay, next order of business. Mr. Clerk, when you are ready. Comm. 258: REQUESTS A DISCUSSION WITH THE ADMINISTRATION REGARDING THE CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROJECTS LIST AND BUDGET FOR THE FISCAL YEAR 2021-2022 From Council Member Matt Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder, dated May 9, 2021. Motion to Close File: Ms. Villegas moved to close file on Comm. 258. Seconded By Ms. Kierkiewicz. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Council Members any discussion? Okay, seeing none, I will go ahead. So we had a pinkie come in from the Mayor's Office, I'm just going to read it for everybody. I know we got it as far as the Council, but let the community know. So regarding the communication, a letter from Mitchell D. Roth our Mayor. "Communication 258 request a list of capital projects that will be funded in fiscal year 2021-2022. As discussed at the last Finance Committee Page 13 FC -11 May 18, 2021 meeting, on May 4, 2021, we are currently in process of developing the list of priority projects, to be funded in the coming fiscal year. When that list is ready, we will be submitting a bond ordinance to fund those proj ects. "As you might imagine, this process is a little more complex this year as we also evaluate shovel ready projects that may be eligible to receive stimulus money. "Should you have any questions, please contact Deanna Sako, Finance Director." That was the letter from the Mayor's Office, Communication 258.1, it's on file for anyone to view. My purpose really is just to understand what projects we are going to be tackling in the upcoming years, understanding we do have a variety of funding sources. Just for the public, what I've come to learn so far, Planning Director develops the list, Mayor approves the list, and the Finance Director finds funding sources for the projects on the list. I think the people of Hawai `i Island deserve to know, and it may not be a normal procedure, but I think it's something that the public should know. As far as what projects we will be taking on, although it may not have been done in the past, like I said, it does help the island as a whole to understand where we're headed and what direction we're taking. And incredibly beneficial to both Council Members, and the public to understand what that direction looks like. So with that said, we have a motion on the floor to file Communication 258, all in favor? Vote on Comm. 258: The motion to close file on Comm. 258 was carried by Filed the following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Chung David, Inaba, Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Lee Loy, Richards, Villegas, and Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder — 9. Noes: None. Absent: None. Excused: None. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: And we are back to our tabled communication. MR. BROWN: Excuse me, Chair? Page 14 FC -11 Recess: Reconvene: Motion to Remove from Table: May 18, 2021 CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Yeah. MR. BROWN: I got a message from Finance Director that the Director of Public Works is headed over shortly, but not exactly sure when they'll be able to make it over. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Not exactly sure, like five, ten minutes or two hours? MR. BROWN: She just said, he's headed over shortly. I don't know. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: How much time do have until our next meeting, sir, 10:30. MR. BROWN: Yeah, 10:30 is the next scheduled committee. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay, so let's go into recess. We're in recess. At 9:37 a.m., the Chair called for a recess The meeting reconvened at 9:51 a.m. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. Aloha, welcome back we are out of recess. We have a motion on the floor to table Communication, what number was that Clerk? 31.11. MR. BROWN: The number was Communication 31.11. You guys voted on that motion already, but if you wanted to you could—someone could make a motion to take it off the table. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. Can I have a motion to take Communication 31.11 off the table please? Ms. Kierkiewicz moved to remove Comm. 31.11 from the table. Seconded by Mr. Richards. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: We'll do something different, for this morning that was nice. Ms. Lee Loy, go ahead. You had some questions for the Director. And then Director if you could introduce yourself and your name for the record. MR. BROWN: Sorry, Chair, could we vote on that motion please? Page 15 FC -11 May 18, 2021 CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Sorry, sir. All in favor of taking Comm. 31.11 off the table? Vote to Remove The motion to remove Comm. 31.11 from the table was from Table: carried by the following voice vote: (Approved) Ayes: Committee Members Chung David, Inaba, Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Lee Loy, Richards, Villegas, and Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder — 9. Noes: None. Absent: None. Excused: None CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Mr. Clerk. Appreciate it. (Note: At this time, Public Works Director Ikaika Rodenhurst came forward to address the members of the Committee.) MR. RODENHURST: Ikaika Rodenhurst, Director of Public Works. Am I allowed to take my mask off? CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: You guys are within six feet away, so if you're comfortable with it, you go ahead. Thank you for joining us today on short notice, appreciate it. And then Ms. Lee Loy had some questions about one of the transfer orders on Communication 31.11. Go ahead, Ms. Lee Loy. MS. LEE LOY: Morning, Director. Thank you for being here. In Communication 31.11 there's a change order as it relates to Kilauea Avenue. You know, related to sidewalks, driveways. First question maybe is because it's such a large change order to the original amount on the contract, you know, what did we miss I think is my question. I understand the contract has a number of scopes of services, and how did we miss not only the adjustments to the sidewalks but also the adjustments to the utility lines, which is resulting in this change order. MR. RODENHURST: So as far as the sidewalks, we didn't miss the sidewalks at the time when this project started. The funds weren't available for the sidewalks. And when we requested those funds, we were able to get them to do the sidewalk improvements. As far as utilities, part of the work involved probing for the locations of these lines, and once that was done we were able to identify that there were a significant portion that was shallow. And we were able to put forth in this contract change order line items to address that. MS. LEE LOY: Director, you mentioned you didn't miss them, there just was no funding available. So how did we move this project forward, right, recognizing that we didn't have enough funds? And at some point, we would have to do a Page 16 FC -11 May 18, 2021 change order, because my concern is we actually misrepresented to our constituency, our taxpayers, that this project would have costed a particular amount that was bid out, right, but now it's changing. MR. RODENHURST: Well we wanted to have the improvements to the road, the sidewalks was a benefit that wasn't affordable at the time. And because the funds were available we were able to request them, and we received the funding to get that done. MS. LEE LOY: You also mentioned the utility lines, there was a significant portion of the utility lines. And I'm assuming there's some calculations involved as far as how far we're taking the road down. Where was the consultation with the utility companies, gas, Spectrum, water, to identify where these utilities lines were that could have been integrated into the contract? MR. RODENHURST: They were identified, they were integrated. The problem with a lot of older work, especially with as-builts, being as reliable or unreliable as they are it depends on the input put in there. If it doesn't have all the changes that were done over the years, or if it was marked down at improper depths that can significantly change the data provided there. It's been an occurrence in the past with construction, especially within the State, especially within this county. There have been times where utilities aren't where we expect them to be, as far as their heights. I'm sorry, as far as their depths in the ground. So that's where, you know, the pot -holing, where we get the probe and identify the lines. And where they're at, and we're able to have a more accurate identification in looking at that. Because the roads not transparent, and we're going off with the data that's provided to us. MS. LEE LOY: So you mentioned the probing right, and so I'm having a little bit of confusion maybe. Because it sounds like as we're going through the construction, it's kind of—it happens, right, it's discovered. And I think my challenge here is that we're paying for, constituents are paying for, the lack of information. And I just want us to get better, because Director, you know, I'm not happy about Kalanianaole. And I want to have a conversation about that, but that's not in front of us right now. And so I'm trying to impress upon the department, how I find it unacceptable. That construction projects are bid out at a particular amount, and through this process the change orders increase the amount of the project. Personally, if I was a bidder on the contract and I thought the project was $10 million, and we change order it up to $20 million, as a bidder I'm upset. And I'm looking at bid challenges, and procurement challenges. So how do we get better, Director? How do we get better at the lack of information that's either in the contract, or with other utilities? Page 17 FC -11 May 18, 2021 MR. RODENHURST: Well some of this stems from previous times, and there's only so much we can do with the data we have in place now. Moving forward as we go through our projects, as the as-builts are completed for our projects; making sure that they're accurate, when they're submitted; making sure that whatever work is done is shown in those drawings at the end is accurate as much as possible; that's going to help us in the future. Some of these problems that stem from that also stems from us understanding exactly what needs to get done. You know, probing is an item that's been long standing; and again, its function of previous data previous practices. And we're trying to right that right now, by making sure the end of these projects, when we do these as-builts they are put forth and they are accurate. So that future projects, future engineers, future designers can go off of that as accurate data as possible. Also, whenever we make any kind of resurfacing, remediation changes any kind of small changes, with utilities encouraging them to update their as-builts to show those as well. Because we all know things happen, you know, and we want to make sure all that data is available at the time of design. So communicating with the utility companies, and making sure that we all have the same set of data. And we're operating off the same plans, is what's going to be helpful moving forward. So that communication aspect, is key. MS. LEE LOY: You know, with this change order, you know, we have a project timeline. Has this adjusted the project timeline? MR. RODENHURST: It has not impacted the critical path. MS. LEE LOY: I'm going to ask that again. Are we still at completing this project by 2022, even with this change order? MR. RODENHURST: Yes. MS. LEE LOY: Okay. You mentioned understanding on what needs to get done, right. I think therein lies the hard work. Again, a little concern because we have Engineering Division putting out engineering plans, and you're stating here that there still needs to be a better understanding of the work that needs to happen. Director, I have two examples now, right. Whether it's how we bid out this project, whether it's the scope of the project or just our engineering drawings. This is another example where there's been some concern which results in either more money, or an extended timeline. And I'm trying to get back to projects on time, on budget. I don't know if my other colleagues have some questions. We're watching this project, well I am, because I don't want to see what happen with Kalanianaole Page 18 FC -11 May 18, 2021 happen here. And maybe you can look at maybe some historical information on how projects were bid out in the past. Who the engineers were, how those designs were evaluated and put out. And maybe you might find some common denominator. Because the community deserves better, our taxpayers deserve better. Chair, I yield at this time. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Ma'am. Mr. Chung, go ahead. MR.INABA: Chair? CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: I'll take Mr. Chung, then I'll take you, Mr. Inaba. MR. INABA: Thank you. MR. CHUNG: Good morning, Director. MR. RODENHURST: Morning. MR. CHUNG: You know, first of all let me start off on a positive note for you. You know, you really inherited a lot of these things. And you might have just tangentially touched upon that. But really the ball was rolling before you got into office. But you know, I did ask a question of you during the course of the appointment process, and I can't recall exactly how I phrased it, but I asked you, you know, what problems you saw within the department? And I've got to say, the response you gave me wasn't really what I was expecting, because you said you're not looking at problems, you're looking at things more positively. But from my perspective you have to try to identify what problems exist, in any type of organization and then you make efforts to try to rectify those situations. I'm not trying to bash the department, but there are some areas that need to be addressed. And so I'm just wondering now, you know, Ms. Lee Loy really articulated the situation well. But there are obvious parallels between this project, and Kalanianaole. I mean, I'm not an engineer, I'm not a construction person, I'm just a guy who drives there all the time. And from my perspective, and I could be totally off base on this. It's a mess, and that's really, you know, it's just a consumer's perspective. Kilauea Avenue now, again, looking at it from a layman's perspective, it troubles me, when I see all of these driveways covered with stuff. And I know I'm not the only person who's wondering what the heck is going on here, and it looks like there were sidewalks that were constructed and then stuff put on. It doesn't look right. You know, I don't think we're going to get into a real protracted discussion on this right now, but I think we have to take a real hard look as to whether there are systemic problems within the department's process that's leading to these types of Page 19 FC -11 May 18, 2021 situations. And again, I could be wrong. Maybe the situation is perfectly normal, I mean is it normal? I don't think it is, though. MR. RODENHURST: To some extent, construction is messy. And things happen in the field. MR. CHUNG: And you know, the thing is this, I know you owe a duty to the department to try to, you know, not say everything, right? But it's gotten to a point where we've really got to ask tough questions on this stuff, yeah, because something is not right. I don't know whether, I mean I don't want to get into it, but I'm assuming that there were consultants who were hired, who were paid a lot of money to draw up these plans, right? Or am I wrong, or was it done in house? MR. RODENHURST: Not all these plans, some of these plans are done in house. MR. CHUNG: Okay. Well if they were done in house, that raises a lot more questions, too. I think it would behoove you to really take a close look at the systemic issues regarding this, that's all. I mean I don't really want to go too much further on this, but it's really a bad look, you know. MR. RODENHURST: I agree with you, that we do need to identify problems. And we're not a perfect department. MR. CHUNG: No. MR. RODENHURST: Nor do I try to advertise us as a perfect department. There are standards that we are reviewing, and we are improving. For the subject at hand, yes, we are reviewing our design standards. We're reviewing our design procedures, and making sure that what we're doing is right. And if there's something we can improve on, we're going to improve on it. Same with our project management section. Making sure that these projects are adhering, making sure we're keeping our contractors accountable, and making sure that we're keeping on schedule on budget. Because yes, as we've talked about in the past that hasn't happened. We all know Kalanianaole is an issue right now, and we're working to address that. Fixing that one is a little bit different, because now we're having to fix it. For this one, we're trying to get in front of it and make sure we don't have any issues. And if we have any issues, we're able to remedy them as soon as possible. MR. CHUNG: When is this supposed to be completed, Kilauea? MR. RODENHURST: This is scheduled to be completed January of 2022. MR. CHUNG: Okay, and then you said we're on schedule, right? Page 20 FC -11 May 18, 2021 MR. RODENHURST: Correct. We are 34 percent work completed, as of the end of April. MR. CHUNG: And then, you know, again, there are parallels between this and Kalanianaole. But coming down the pipe, you know, as you discussed with me, is Waianuenue, right? MR. RODENHURST: Um-hmm. MR. CHUNG: And I don't want to be going through this kind of discussion, when Waianuenue come up too. Anyway that's all I've got to say, just take a real close look, yeah. It's gotten past the point where you should be apologetic to the process, okay. I know you've been trying to defend it, you weren't there, but now's the time, you know, we've really got to look at things critically, you, and make the necessary changes. Thank you, Director. MR. RODENHURST: Thank you. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Mr. Inaba, go ahead. MR. INABA: Yeah, I don't really have much more to add. Council Member Chung pretty much took the words out of my mouth. And whether it's this specific project we're talking about, or projects across the island, I continue to speak in emails regarding roads here in Kona. And at some point we're going to need to make sure that this process to get these projects ready, and then completed gets figured out. I'll just leave it at that. Thank you. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Mr. Inaba. Mr. Richards, go ahead. MR. RICHARDS: Thank you, Chair. Thanks, Director. I'm just going to echo a little bit, as far as the process and procedure going forward. Again, Aaron said it, you inherited a lot of this stuff. But you know, we even toured the Mana Road to Mud Lane, and that stretch of road was a headache for everybody. And it's going to be another headache when we go back to resurface it. And I tried and pushed hard last Administration to just do it all one time, pau. But we need to re-examine those procedures to make sure that we're doing what's efficient. And pointing out what Ms. Lee Loy said, this is constituent money, so we've got to figure this out. So I'm just going to echo that. You inherit a bunch, but I want to make sure we take the department in the right direction. So that's all. Thanks, Chair, I yield. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Mr. Richards. Ms. Villegas, go ahead. Page 21 FC -11 May 18, 2021 MS. VILLEGAS: Aloha, Mr. Rodenhurst. MR. RODENHURST: Aloha. MS. VILLEGAS: Thanks for being here today, and getting over here so quickly. I just wanted to thank your department for the work that's been done on the Alii Drive culvert. And then that is really getting close to completion. I know the community really enjoys it, and to have that bridge back up and running and no longer in jeopardy of falling down is very comforting. As well as Kuakini Highway, and I know there's still work being done on Henry. I just hope to continue to be able to work together. We have some serious areas where constituents are constantly reaching out for support in some guardrails, for some safety concerns in Holualoa, and different areas, that are slightly different than these really big highway projects that Council Member Lee Loy is speaking of here today. But we have some big road issues, in Kona that we could definitely use some help with. But I just thank you, and your department for giving authorization when necessary for them to help us even on the smaller pieces that provide for a more safe driving experience for people on our roadways. So thank you for that. MR. RODENHURST: Mahalo. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Ms. Villegas. Ms. Kimball, do you want to add something? MS. KIMBALL: Yeah, thank you, Chair. Good morning, Director Rodenhurst. MR. RODENHURST: Good morning. MS. KIMBALL: I certainly do understand that with various projects, there is going to be some uncertainty based on the quality of the historical information about a given site. I think Council Member Chung is spot on, with the need to evaluate your processes. But I'm curious, at this point how do you account for uncertainty in this scope of work and the bidding process? MR. RODENHURST: Well we had it based off of the as-builts that are on file, so we understand that historically as-builts have not been as reliable as we'd like them to be. We can't exactly put a number on that and say that, you know, it's usually this many feet, or this many inches out of requirements, or if—what changes happen along the way. But we do know in the past it has happened where the data that's provided isn't matching what's in the field. And so that's where some of these bigger change orders come from. We are evaluating making sure that we haven't had any complications or any issues with our design process, whether it be in-house or it'll be consultation. And if it is we need to rectify that. Page 22 FC -11 May 18, 2021 MS. KIMBALL: So actually, I'm going to push back on the inability to put a number on it. I would think that if you have a certain assessment of the quality of the as -built drawings from prior, a given project, that you could on a percentage basis build in some sort of cushion for potential change orders based on that uncertainty. Has that ever been considered by the department? MR. RODENHURST: Off the top of my head I do not know, but I can go back and check. MS. KIMBALL: Do you typically build in any kind of cushion when you are developing scope of work or putting projects out to bid, based on the expected potential for change orders? MR. RODENHURST: I don t think we are—I want to bring up Keone to go over that process right now. I know it does differ depending on the funding source, but he has more inherent knowledge of that at this time. (Note: At this time, Civil Engineer VI Alan (Keone) Thompson came forward to address members of the Committee.) MR. THOMPSON: Hi, Keone Thompson. When it comes to putting contingencies into the projects, it is based upon the source of funding, whether it's a county project or federal funding. That limits how much extra we might put into it. So we usually have asometimes we have a line item where we have for some unexpected utilities, or something that might come up. But for the most part yeah, we don't put too much in. Otherwise it would be you really don't know what you're going to find in the field. I mean it might be huge, it might be little bit. And it's something that we really cannot account for, until we actually probe. So one of the things we do at the start of the project, is we probe for these utilities, and that's how we found out in this case. MR. RODENHURST: So to kind of add to that, is that there are line items that we can add to certain contracts where we anticipate additional unforeseen circumstances. But it really depends on the location and how reliable these as-builts are. Are they from the past few years, are they from decades ago, that really is the deciding factor on some of those. Is there anything else that we need to cover now, or I can get back to you for this one? MS. KIMBALL: No. I think what I'd like to see happen is the department to actually evaluate historical change orders and determine if there's a possibility to come up with some sort of system for, from a percentage basis, adding some conditions for potential change orders. Certainly in the private sector, there always is built into scope of work and bidding processes, some buffer based on the level of known uncertainty, which sounds like oxymoron. But if you know, Page 23 FC -11 May 18, 2021 that there's a lot of uncertainty in the quality of the drawings, then you increase the size of that buffer. Whereas if you say, for example, like you mentioned the drawings are more recent you think they're of higher quality then there's a lower need to there's a need for a smaller buffer. The reason being is, as Council Member Lee Loy mentioned, you know, we're spending tax dollars here. I think the public is sympathetic to situations, where there's just things we don't know. But we have to communicate, that we don't know them up front. You know, I realize you have a lot to take on with EnerGov which we'll talk about later today. But in the future I think this is worth spending time on, so we do a better job of saying this is how much the project is going to cost, understanding this level of uncertainty, based on what we don't know about the existing conditions. MR. RODENHURST: I agree. We definitely need to make sure that there are processes that address that, and make sure that we put what we can anticipate. I know it's like you said, it's kind of an oxymoron where it's anticipated cost, but we need to make an educated estimate off of that. And I agree we need to reevaluate that and see what we can do to improve it. So I hundred percent back that up and I do hear what you're saying, Council Member Lee Loy, about making sure this process works. Did you want to? MR. THOMPSON: Well you know, we have put unforeseen into the projects. And also some projects are a lot of unknowns, but you know, we try and limit how much we put into those projects. Because otherwise, the money is just sitting there. I mean in the past where we put a large amount then we get questioned, "Why do you have so much just sitting there," and then we don't use it? So we're trying to be accountable to the money, so it's just not sitting there when we can have other uses for the money. I know in the private side, when I was on the private side, we would have the contingency in there, you know, just in case. And then that would always be planned into it. But yeah, for the county side we try and hold back on how much money, we just put in the contract. MR. RODENHURST: It's not a perfect process, and we need to improve it. Because if we over estimate we have sitting there, and then like you said we got to be responsible with taxpayer money. We don't want to have the money getting there. But on the flip side, we don't want to be underestimating and have to come and have giant change orders. So either way, we do not want to be wasting taxpayer money. I 100 percent agree, and we need to address that. It's going to be a process, it's not going to be fixed overnight. And we're going to keep narrowing it down, until we can get as close as possible. If I can have a project with zero change orders that's very, very, very, very rare. But if we can limit those change orders as much as possible, that's a success in my book. And that is something we've been doing. I know this change order in particular, I have been reviewing it for quite some time with Keone and with our engineering staff. As well as any change orders that comes across my desk, I Page 24 FC -11 May 18, 2021 have asked questions of why is this happening, where was this in the beginning, what is the justification for these things. We are looking at these, because I agree with you we cannot have another Kalanianaole on our hands. And I don't want to see that happen for this project, I don't want to see that for Waianuenue, or any projects in Kona or any projects in Hawaii County. I want to make sure that we're doing the right thing, and keeping this on track and on budget as much as possible. And I'm confident with the engineering staff to get that. MS. KIMBALL: Thank you, both. I do appreciate the procurement process that we are under, and the mechanism that we have to abide by do make it challenging to set aside those funds, and maybe inappropriate. I guess the thing that is important for us, is to have effective transparency and communication, both with the public and with us as the Council from the department, about these projects as to what the uncertainties might be, and what the potential for change orders might be, understanding that is the likely that there's no change. I will support you on that for sure. The likely that there's no change orders, is basically zero. But what I guess I'm asking ultimately no matter what the mechanism, there is a better mechanism of communicating what level of uncertainty there is, and the likelihood of change orders coming from any given project, based on the data sets that are being used to drive the scope of work. Thank you both, again. Chair, I yield. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Ms. Kimball. Okay, I'm going back to Ms. Lee Loy, go ahead. MS. LEE LOY: Thank you, Chair. You know, back to this specific change order, and just kind of drilling down. Who is project managing this one Director? MR. THOMPSON: I'm managing this project, right now. MS. LEE LOY: Okay. And earlier you mentioned that the sidewalks, specifically the driveways, wasn't incorporated. We didn't have enough money when this went out to contract, or went out to bid. Is that correct? MR. THOMPSON: So the sidewalks wasn't included in the project, because that wasn't planned to be changed as part of the job. Because this is a pavement rehab job. MS. LEE LOY: So the pavement rehab, what is the current existing height of the pavement? Page 25 FC -11 May 18, 2021 MR. THOMPSON: So we found through the excavation that the pavement is about a foot thick in the middle, but then now it's down to four to six inches near the curbs. Or a little bit more than that. MS. LEE LOY: So what is the existing height now? MR. THOMPSON: The existing height of road is about eight inches higher than what was originally was built. Approximately, it varies depends on what part of the road it is. MS. LEE LOY: Okay. And so at the end of the project, what is the height of the road. MR. THOMPSON: So at the end of the project we would have the six inches, we build height at the curb height. So we're going to have the full curb height again. And then hopefully, we have the crown with the two percent in the middle. So you know, from there you go two percent from the center, yeah. MS. LEE LOY: So we start at eight inches, right, current existing. Because I'm just trying to match up the driveways, which is the result of this change order, right? So if we knew the road height currently exists at eight inches, and the finish would be where, Mr. Thompson? MR. THOMPSON: So the center line—well when they overlay they put super thick in the middle and then thin it out towards the edge. MS. LEE LOY: I understand the slope, two percent from centerline. Because what I'm trying to demonstrate is, we know the existing, we know the finish. So we're coming in for a change order on driveways that are currently matching up to the existing roadway heights. And that's why, I'm having a little concern about maybe we didn't have money for this adjustment. But if you know, if you start at eight, and you're going to finish at six that the driveways would of had to been adjusted. I'm just trying to demonstrate how probing these types of questions during the design, and engineering, and scope would emerge so that we are not going through a change order. Which is actually the goal, correct Director? So I'm just trying to demonstrate how you would probe questions. Beginning, ending, where's the rest of the stuff, that's all. MR. THOMPSON: Okay. MS. LEE LOY: Okay. Thank you. Chair, I yield. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Ms. Lee Loy. Mr. Chung, go ahead. Page 26 FC -11 May 18, 2021 MR. CHUNG: Yeah, thank you. And you know, I'm glad, and I was cringing when Ms. Lee Loy brought these things up, because I got to say, something doesn't add up it just doesn't. And I'm not an engineer, but it just does not add up. But I'll leave it alone. On this particular project was this done in house or by a consultant? MR. THOMPSON: This is in house. MR. CHUNG: Okay, how about Kalanianaole? MR. THOMPSON: That was in house. MR. CHUNG: Both of them in house? MR. THOMPSON: Yes. MR. CHUNG: When do we go out and use consultants, to design projects? Who makes that decision? MR. THOMPSON: So usually we go to the Director for direction, on whether to take it in house or we do a consultant, and then we do—it's just a process. MR. RODENHURST: It would be my decision, based off of some criteria. MR. CHUNG: Okay. And I know it cost more to hire a consultant, right? But not as much as the change orders, right, I don't think. MR. RODENHURST: I'd have to take a look at the numbers, but you would think, yes. That if there's an issue with an in-house design something, and then we need to have a consultant that's a possible change. I'd have to take a look at the numbers. MR. CHUNG: I know Ms. Kimball used the term, or use the phrase "We don't know." You know, there are things we don't know, but I'm just wondering aloud whether there are things we could have done on the front end, to at least get a better idea of what we should know, right. And whether that could have been done with consultants, or if these probing things could have been done earlier so that we don't have, we can incorporate them into the overall plans. I'm kind of concerned that the common denominator between this thing, which we don't know it might go on schedule yet, right, but big change order. The common denominator is that it was done in house. And I'm not trying to criticize the department, but that's something we have to look at too. MR. RODENHURST: I agree. It's concerning, we have to look at it. I would also state that correlation doesn't necessary equal causation on this. Page 27 FC -11 May 18, 2021 MR. CHUNG: Right. I agree with you. MR. RODENHURST: In my experience, I have seen decent in house designs from different government agencies. I've seen decent consultant designs, I've seen terrible consultant designs. MR. CHUNG: Granted. MR. RODENHURST: And I've seen terrible. So it's really a factor of the designer. But also looking at what is the arrival date at the time too. So there's a couple criteria, we have to look for those things. And I agree, it needs to be looked at. And we have been looking through what's available, like I said we're looking through our design standards. What are we doing in our processes; how are we identifying potential problems, potential issues; what kind of data are we working off of? Because we're only as reliable as the data we're working off of. MR. CHUNG: And touching upon—my last question. Touching upon something that Ms. Kimball brought up also. The two of you were in private sector, right? What's the normal amount you guys take into consideration for change orders, what's the normal anticipated amount or percentage? Normal. MR. RODENHURST: That's a hard question. Personally through my experiences, we had to deal with a lot of problem projects. And those projects, some of them were quite extensive. And it was depending on design, and it was also depending on other factors, delays, what not. It's a function of the contractor as well, whether it delays with the contractor being available. Whether delays caused by design MR. CHUNG: So there's no normal, then? Okay, that's all. MR. RODENHURST: Yeah, there's no normal, on that one. I'm sorry, I wish I could give you a number. MR. CHUNG: Okay. No, that's fine. It's a good answer, I mean if that's the answer, that's the answer. Okay, thank you. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Mr. Richards, go ahead. MR. RICHARDS: Thank you, Chair. Just again, Ikaika, I wanted to touch briefly on what Ms. Kimball talked about. Going back in a retrospective look on changes, and events that have caused change orders, and like you just mentioned poor data. I think like I said that Mana Road to Mud Lane, I think that's a good current. But then one thing that probably will have been forgotten is when we re -did Waimea Town. That was a county project, and I had a friend working for Page 28 FC -11 May 18, 2021 Good Fellows, if I recall right. And he said, you know, we didn't go 10 feet without picking up something that was not on the documentation, so that maybe something to also compare to. Then you have something going forward. And I appreciate there's no normal. It's normally abnormal is probably a way to characterize it. But you can compare those two things and retrospectively look, because I do know some of the old data is pretty sketchy. However we should be able to do some comparison there, and look backwards. Because like I said, it obviously triggers a lot of conversation. Thanks, Chair. I yield. MR. RODENHURST: If I may comment on that. I agree. We need to look at projects that have been completed, especially when we're talking about area specific. If there's been a project completed in a certain area and are recently, we should look at if there were any issues along that project and incorporate it into the design of the neighboring project. Because that's a good area to look at. You know, if it's happening right next door, might be happening right here as well. So that's part of the design criteria that we're going to be working on, with the Engineering Division. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you. Giving that its 10:30, we have to switch our committees up. I have some follow up questions, so I'm going to go ahead. Very good discussion so far. So just recapping, design was in house we bid out, contractor takes the bid at the number that we set, or the bid amount. And then construction begins, construction ends, we final the project. If they don't finish the project in time allotted, is there those normal contractor fines that begin at the end of the project per day when they don't finish the project? MR. RODENHURST: Liquidated damages, yes. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. What are those fines for? Is this Glover doing it? I think Glover is doing it. MR. RODENHURST: Yeah, this one is Glover. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. So Glover, and what kind of fines are they looking at if they don't get to the end of project. And does the change order, change anything? MR. RODENHURST: So the change order changes their agreed upon work, depending on the change order can change the time. It' really depends on this specific change order. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. Page 29 FC -11 May 18, 2021 MR. RODENHURST: This one right here, like I've mentioned, there's no extension to the critical path, so there was no additional time that was incorporated with that. Trying to think if we have anything else. Yeah, the liquidated damages depending on the projects, it varies. And I'm not sure the department had the value of this particular project. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: So you kind of put Glover in a tight spot. You said 34 percent complete I think was the number I heard. MR. RODENHURST: That's the number that we've gone off, yes. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay, so they have six months to hit the other 66 percent? MR. RODENHURST: Yeah. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. That's tight. I mean for me that's tight. I don't know how they feel about it. MR. RODENHURST: (Inaudible) that's their numbers, and you know, we're talking work completed that's been verified and everything. I mean that doesn't include work has been completed this month, it doesn't include anything that's not been, you know, there's various tasks involved with each line item. It doesn't include partially completed tasks, so it's a compound. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Yeah. I just want to touch on again, engineer who designs was, I know you say your project manager, but who actually designed this project? And what I'm asking really is going to be who designed this project, and who designed Kalanianaole? MR. THOMPSON: So I designed this project, and I did Kalanianaole, too. Well, with some help of with other people, yeah. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: There's a group of you, or you ran the proj ect? MR. THOMPSON: I pretty much ran everything. I was responsible. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. And when was the project designed? MR. THOMPSON: This one? CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Yeah. Page 30 FC -11 May 18, 2021 MR. THOMPSON: That was just last year. Was one of those rush jobs, where they said just get it done to get the federal money. So it was summer of last year we got it, and we finished—oh no, I'm sorry, the year before last I believe. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: 2019 or 2020? Pre-COVID or post COVID? MR. THOMPSON: It was pre-COVID. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Pre-COVID, so it was 2019 then. MR. THOMPSON: Yeah. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. What does the change order cover? MR. THOMPSON: Change order covers replacing sidewalks that's damage, and also any unforeseen gas lines and water lines that are shallow. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: You said any sidewalks that are damaged, the ones that are built and then damaged or MR. THOMPSON: Any existing sidewalks that are in bad shape, we're replacing. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. MR. THOMPSON: So that's—we could do that because we got some extra money, we had more money available to us. So then we went in and said okay, and we'll use this money to change these sidewalks. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. And when the project was originally bid, were the sidewalks included? We're going to change everyone's sidewalks, and sorry we're going to build new sidewalks on all of Kilauea that we've replaced. MR. THOMPSON: No. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: They weren't? MR. THOMPSON: No. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Who pushed for that, where did that come from? Page 31 FC -11 May 18, 2021 MR. THOMPSON: When money came available, then I pushed for that. When money came available from the federal level. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: But there's a 20 percent match from the county, correct? MR. THOMPSON: Yeah, that's correct. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: So who pushed for the sidewalks? I mean if money is available, great, but I mean someone has to go push the idea, Who did it? MR. THOMPSON: So pretty much I pushed for it, I lobbied for it to get the money. I mean for the federal money, yeah. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: I mean, I'm going to ask, I think, a funny question. But seriously, can everyone now expect whenever we do street work to get their own driveway entrance and sidewalk done for them in front of their house when it's a county road? MR. THOMPSON: No. It depends on the project, and what the scope of work is and how the condition of their sidewalk is. If we need to touch the driveway, then we touch the driveway as part of the work. That's the only time we would touch it and improve it, if it's necessary for the work to work. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: And is that normal for our State, and county to do that? MR. THOMPSON: That is normal for the county jobs, yeah. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: We touch your driveway. So anybody in the County of Hawaii, county road, not a private road, not a road in limbo or anything else, but if you're on a county road, and the county resurfaces or repaves a road in front of your house, and it touches your driveway MR. THOMPSON: Well if we have to touch it to improve it so it can tie in, then we would replace the driveway. We've done that, that's the consistently we have done that for every project. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Because it's not cheap. You're talking cement work, labor, and manpower. I just want to know going forward who gets what, and how that lays out for everyone. Because it cannot just be in one area, and then from then we don't touch it. There's some discussion about the driveways themselves too, and how that worked early on in the discussion. Page 32 FC -11 May 18, 2021 Okay. I want to state the real obvious, I don't think anyone on this Council has actually ever done road work. You know, never shoveled asphalt, or cut concrete or anything like that. I myself, I haven't either. But I do come from the construction field, and it was my job to visit, design, and create the system, draw the drawings, and then do the job on the back end. It taught me a lot, and not just being the engineering body but also to know from the construction standpoint how I'm going to install it. So I'm concerned that two projects now, that you are designer for, and thank you for saying that and being upfront about it. I don't know how you want me to say it, but seems like you've missed something in the middle. They're not lining up, the two pieces not lining up. So I ran two conduits toward each other, each other and then at the end they went like this. It doesn't work. But at this point, I'm not dealing with the private residential person, I'm dealing with the County of Hawaii, our roadways. What it looks like for the County of Hawaii. And what the public views it as, but also just as a cost. There's a cost associated with these changes. MR. RODENHURST: Keone, for the as-builts for both of these projects were the utilities where they were supposed to be located? MR. THOMPSON: No. So we did a diligence on utility plans. Whatever we had, we go to the utility companies we submit to them before we take out the bid. We ask them for comments, we ask for any drawings that they may have, and we do a diligence on the depth then location. And they weren't as they were shown on the drawings. They weren't built how it was shown. We didn't get any comments saying that it was shallow, or if it was in the right location. So you know, there's no ways to account for what is existing there. I mean unless I have a crystal ball, you know, you don't know what's under the ground. You cannot see until you actually excavate it. MR. RODENHURST: I want to make it clear, I'm not blaming the utility companies for this. MR. THOMPSON: No, you know it MR. RODENHURST: This is all based off, like I said this is a function off as-builts. It's functioned off the data that's presented at the end of a project also incorporating in the changes that happened over the years. And wherever that happens, whatever the data that's provided at the time of design, that's the best data we have to off of. Now do we need to review what data we're looking at when we design? Yes, I agree that's been brought forth today. Do we need to look and make sure the accuracy, and are we looking at all the factors that are available to us? Yes, we need to go and take a look at that. Page 33 FC -11 May 18, 2021 But my understanding so far is, in talking with Keone about these two projects, there's some data issues. And I wasn't here at the time, I'm not using that as an excuse. But I can't give you anything else from what happened at the time of these designs. I can give you that we've been looking over the designs for both these, since my time started here at Public Works. And we're looking at what we can do to remedy any of these situations, and also make sure in the future we don't repeat these mistakes. Or we can account for some of these data, not lining up. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. I mean yes, you're right, it's our job in the beginning to understand what we're dealing with. Same thing I got to deal with, how was the roof constructed, is there pipes in the wall, am I mounting equipment where there's a water main or some other kind of pipe in the wall? A gas main. What does that look like for me, does that change the cost of the project? Do I need to replace the purlins, is the roofing shot, does the customer need to know? These are all things I took into account. Unless it's a solar job. MR. RODENHURST: And the cost and go up, depending on the scope. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: The cost can, but it needs to be stated in the beginning. MR. RODENHURST: Correct. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: And so for this case, you're stating it after the fact. And I understand, things change on the job as you dig. But regardless we've got to do better in the beginning. What is the total project, I mean that you're looking as far as the change order. How far up are we going to go? MR. THOMPSON: So right now the change order, it's for $4 million, right. But that includes, well it's the gas lines, the water lines, and the sidewalks. Which the sidewalk is something that was added, and wasn't really—it was just to make it a better accessible route for the community. And that's the purpose of the sidewalk replacement. MR. RODENHURST: What is the total? MR. THOMPSON: So right now it's a little bit over $12 million for the whole project with a $4 million increase. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: And 20 percent of that falls on the county, correct? MR. THOMPSON: Yes, that's correct. Page 34 FC -11 May 18, 2021 CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Of the $4 million increase, so $800,000 for taxpayers. MR. THOMPSON: Yes. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. I thank you for your time. I thank you for being up front and honest about what happened. That's rare. And you did inherit this. And obviously there's an issue that needs to be addressed. I appreciate your time today. And I'm going to yield to, just real briefly because I know we have another committee coming up, and we've asked a lot of questions so far. So briefly, Mr. Chung go ahead. MR. CHUNG: Yeah. What utilities are we talking about? MR. RODENHURST: For Kilauea? MR. CHUNG: Yeah, that we had problems with. Which departments, what agencies? MR. THOMPSON: So we had some shallow waterlines, and shallow gaslines. MR. CHUNG: Okay, water and gas. MR. THOMPSON: Yes. MR. CHUNG: Okay, you guys have paper trail in terms of your communications with those guys? Because we could probably seek some compensation from them, if the information they gave us was incorrect. MR. THOMPSON: Well this is a federal aid job. So with the gas company they will split in the cost of the price. The way a federal aid job works, is after the first $10,000 we split 50-50 not matter what the cost is with the utility company. MR. CHUNG: So they're paying for some of this change order? MR. THOMPSON: Yes. MR. CHUNG: Okay, what about water? MR. THOMPSON: Water they're a county agency, so we worked out a deal with them where we would pay for—normally they don't pay for federal aid jobs. Because it's county to county, feds don't recognize the difference. But in this case they agreed to pay for the materials, and the labor and then we would pay for the excavations, and backfill. We already worked that out with them. So that's actually going to be—so right now the cost and the change orders actually only Page 35 FC -11 May 18, 2021 the backfill and excavations now. So we're not sure exactly how much of that is going to be spent or not. MR. CHUNG: And so what am I to understand then, by them doing that means they have admitted that they provided incorrect information to the county? MR. THOMPSON: Well, I'm not saying that. MR CHUNG: Well what would they say, if they came here? What do you think they would say, or you don't know? MR. THOMPSON: I cannot speak for them. MR. CHUNG: Okay. Maybe we've got to bring them in one day. Alright, thank you. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Mr. Chung. Ms. Lee Loy, briefly. MS. LEE LOY: Thank you. First of all I just want to thank the rest of my colleagues, for really diving into, you know, this project as an example on how we do future road projects. I just have one question. How many miles is this particular project? MR. THOMPSON: About 1.5. MS. LEE LOY: And where are we now, as far as cost? Because we're almost at $20 million at Kalanianaole. MR. THOMPSON: So this is at $12 million, right now. MS. LEE LOY: So a 1.5 -mile project, we're at where, Mr. Thompson? MR. THOMPSON: Twelve million dollars. MS. LEE LOY: We're at $12 million. Okay. Chair, I yield at this time. CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you. Okay, any further questions? Nope. Thank you for your time gentlemen, and your honesty. And then I look forward to seeing some positive changes in the way we predesign before we walk into projects. Thank you. MR. RODENHURST: Thank you. MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. Page 36 FC -11 May 18, 2021 CHR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. Mr. Clerk, I believe that brings us to the end of our Finance Committee agenda. Oh sorry, we do need to vote and close file on Communication 31.11. All in favor of closing file? Vote on Comm. 31.11: The motion to close file on Comm. 31.11 was carried by Filed the following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Chung David, Inaba, Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Lee Loy, Richards, Villegas, and Chair Kdneali`i-Kleinfelder — 9. Noes: None. Absent: None. Excused: None. ORDER OF The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, RESOLUTIONS: Order of Resolutions. (There were none.) BILLS FOR The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, ORDINANCES: Bills for Ordinances. (There were none.) ADJOURN- There being no further business, at 10:46 a.m., Ms. Lee Loy moved to adjourn MENT: the meeting. Seconded by Mr. Richards and carried by the following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Chung, David, Inaba, Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Lee Loy, Richards, Villegas, and Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder — 9. Noes: None. Absent: None. Excused: None. CHR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: We are adjourned. Approved: Mr. Matt Kdneali`i Kleinfel er, Chair (Date) Finance Committee MK/rk Page 37