HomeMy WebLinkAboutMIN FC 2022/05/17 2020-2022Committee on Finance
35th Session
Hawaii County Building
25 Aupuni Street
Hilo, Hawaii
May 17, 2022
CALL TO
The regular meeting of the Committee on Finance was called to order at
ORDER:
9:01
a.m., in the Council Chambers, Hilo, by Mr. Matt Kaneali`i- Kleinfelder,
Chair.
ROLL CALL:
Present:
Mr.
Matt Kaneali`i- Kleinfelder, Chair
Ms.
Heather L. Kimball, Vice Chair
Mr.
Aaron S. Y. Chung, Member
Ms.
Maile Medeiros David, Member
Mr.
Holeka Goro Inaba, Member
Ms.
Ashley L. Kierkiewicz, Member
Ms.
Susan L. K. Lee Loy, Member
Mr.
Herbert M. "Tim" Richards III, Member (came in later)
Ms.
Rebecca Villegas, Member
STATEMENTS
FROM THE
PUBLIC ON
AGENDA ITEMS
COMMUNI-
r A TTnNc
The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business,
Statements from the Public on Agenda Items.
The following individuals registered to provide comment regarding Bill 160
(Comm. 750), and came forward when called by the Chair:
Patrick Hurney.
(representing Habitat for Humanity)
Kristen Alice.
(representing Hope Services and Community Alliance Partners)
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Mr. Clerk, can we go to our first order of
business this morning?
The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business,
Communications.
FC -35
May 17, 2022
Comm. 28.6: THIRD QUARTER REALLOCATION REPORT:
JANUARY 1 — MARCH 31, 2022
From Human Resources Director Waylen L. K. Leopoldino, dated April 14, 2022.
Vote on Comm. 28.6: Mr. Inaba moved to close file on Comm. 28.6.
Filed Seconded by Ms. David and carried by the following
voice vote:
Ayes: Committee Members David, Inaba,
Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Lee Loy, Villegas,
and Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder — 7.
Noes: None.
Absent: Committee Members Chung and Richards — 2.
Excused: None.
Comm. 30.28: REPORT OF FUND TRANSFERS AUTHORIZED: APRIL 1 — 15, 2022
From Controller Kay Oshiro, dated April 25, 2022.
Vote on Comm. 30.28: Mr. Inaba moved to close file on Comm. 30.28.
Filed Seconded by Ms. Lee Loy and carried by the following
voice vote:
Ayes: Committee Members David, Inaba,
Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Lee Loy, Villegas,
and Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder — 7.
Noes: None.
Absent: Committee Members Chung and Richards — 2.
Excused: None.
Comm. 31.35: REPORT OF CHANGE ORDERS AUTHORIZED: APRIL 1 — 15, 2022
From Finance Director Deanna Sako, dated April 22, 2022, transmitting the above
report pursuant to Hawaii County Code Section 2-12.3.
Vote on Comm. 31.35: Mr. Inaba moved to close file on Comm. 31.35.
Filed Seconded by Ms. Lee Loy and carried by the following
voice vote:
Ayes: Committee Members David, Inaba,
Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Lee Loy, Villegas,
and Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder — 7.
Noes: None.
Absent: Committee Members Chung and Richards — 2.
Excused: None.
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May 17, 2022
Comm. 32.20: MONTHLY BUDGET STATUS REPORT FOR THE MONTH ENDED
JANUARY 31, 2022
From Finance Director Deanna Sako, dated April 26, 2022, transmitting the above
report pursuant to Hawaii County Charter Section 6-6.3 (h).
Vote on Comm. 32.20: Mr. Inaba moved to close file on Comm. 32.20.
Filed Seconded by Ms. David and carried by the following
voice vote:
Ayes: Committee Members David, Inaba,
Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Lee Loy, Villegas,
and Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder — 7.
Noes: None.
Absent: Committee Members Chung and Richards — 2.
Excused: None.
Comm. 85.5: THIRD QUARTER CLAIMS REPORT: JANUARY 1 — MARCH 31, 2022
From Claims Investigator/Adjustor Clifford D. Victorine III, dated April 25,
2022, transmitting the above report pursuant to Section 2-9 of the Hawaii County
Code.
Vote on Comm. 85.5: Ms. Lee Loy moved to close file on Comm. 85.5.
Filed Seconded by Mr. Inaba and carried by the following
voice vote:
Ayes: Committee Members David, Inaba,
Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Lee Loy, Villegas,
and Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder — 7.
Noes: None.
Absent: Committee Members Chung and Richards — 2.
Excused: None.
Comm. 770: TRANSMITS THE ANNUAL COMPREHENSIVE FINANCIAL REPORT FOR
THE FISCAL YEAR JULY 1, 2020 TO JUNE 30, 2021, AND A
PRESENTATION PREPARED BY N&K CPAs, INC.
From County Auditor Tyler J. Benner, dated April 22, 2022.
Motion to Close File: Mr. Inaba moved to close file on Comm. 770.
Seconded by Ms. Lee Loy.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: We have today joining us some of the
members from N&K CPAs, Inc., as well as Ms. Sako here in our chambers. Go
ahead when you're ready.
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May 17, 2022
(Note: At this time, At this time, Audit Principal Chad Funasaki and
Assurance Services Division Senior Manager Andrew Ho, both of N&K
CPAs, Inc., provided a PowerPoint presentation to the members of the
Committee. For viewing of the subject presentation, please see the DVD
copy of the meeting proceedings on file in the Clerk's Office, or the video
archives online from the County's homepage at www.hawaiicounty.gov.
A hard copy of the presentation is made a part of the record, see Comm.
770.)
MR. FUNASAKL Okay. Yeah, thank you. Good morning, Chair Kaneali`i-
Kleinfelder and Council Members. Yeah, we're here to just quickly present the
results of the 2021 audit.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you very much for the presentation
today, gentlemen. Appreciate it. Council Members, discussion for N&K
regarding our audit? Okay, I'm not seeing any lights here. You know, I do have
one question, while the Council Members are thinking, possibly.
The last statement you made regarding the leases, I mean, is there a certain dollar
amount or a threshold for those leases to fall into that category that you've stated?
I mean a copy machine, or is that larger leases like an equipment?
MR. FUNASAKL Like in all cases, materiality it will be a factor. I mean, what
that number is, I can't really say at this point. But with anything else, if it's
material, and in most cases it may very well be. Yeah, but I don't have dollar
amounts I can provide at this time. But it's really long-term leases primarily. I
mean, if month-to-month things, it probably will not fall into scope. It's more
your long-term leases.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay.
MR. FUNASAKL But it is—what it will involve though, is getting a handle of
all your leases and then assessing which ones will be impacted by the statement,
so that's going to take some time to gather the information and then make that
assessment.
(Note: At this time, Finance Director Deanna Sako came forward to
address the members of the Committee.)
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay, thank you. Ms. Sako, go ahead.
MS. SAKO: So I just want to clarify that the equipment and the copiers that you
mentioned, those are actually already capital leases, and so we account for them
accordingly. And this is going to focus primarily on operating leases. But we
already have to come up with a lot of the information, to disclose in the ACFR
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(Annual Comprehensive Financial Report). So this would just analyze them to
record in a different way for the coming year.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay, okay. Okay Council, coming back
to you folks. Okay. Well, great presentation, gentlemen. Appreciate it very
much. There's no questions from Council at this time regarding the audit.
MR. FUNASAKL Thank you very much, Committee Members. Thank you,
Deanna and Kay (Oshiro), for your help during the audit. We're wrapping up
we're working on and trying to close up the Single Audit piece of the audit, so
we're working on getting that done.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay.
MR. FUNASAKL Okay, thank you so much.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you both.
MR. FUNASAKL We appreciate it.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you both, and I appreciate it.
MR. FUNASAKL Thank you.
MR. HO: Thank you.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay, aloha. Okay, Mr. Clerk, we have a
motion on the floor to close file on Communication 770. Council Members, all in
favor?
Vote on Comm. 770: The motion to close file on Comm. 770 was carried by
Filed the following voice vote:
Ayes: Committee Members Chung, David, Inaba,
Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Lee Loy, Richards,
Villegas, and Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder — 9
Noes: None.
Absent: None.
Excused: None.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Moving on, sir.
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May 17, 2022
Comm. 794: REAL PROPERTY ASSESSMENT CERTIFICATION REPORT FOR THE
2022-23 TAX YEAR
From Finance Director Deanna Sako, dated May 2, 2022, transmitting the above
report pursuant to Section 19-90(d) of the Hawaii County Code, indicating a
total value of $43,789,619,600 of net taxable real property.
Motion to Close File: Mr. Inaba moved to close file on Comm. 794
Seconded by Ms. Lee Loy.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: We have some members from Real
Property Division here, as well. And I'm assuming we have the director in Kona
today. Possibly, maybe not.
(Note: At this time, Real Property Tax Administrator Lisa Miura came
forward to address the members of the Committee.)
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you for joining us today, Director.
Council Members, discussion? Did you want to make a statement, Ms. Miura?
No? I see a negative shake on that one. Okay. Council Members, discussion?
Ms. Villegas, go ahead.
MS. VILLEGAS: Thank you. Aloha, Lisa, thank you for being here today. I just
have a quick question out of curiosity. Has there been another time that you're
aware of that the values have gone up by such a large percentage?
MS. MIURA: Yes, in 2009 to 2010. That year, the values did increase quite a bit
with the market as well.
MS. VILLEGAS: And they did, okay. And at that time, was the dollar value
similar in the change in our budget?
MS. MIURA: I don't have that numbers with me, sorry.
MS. VILLEGAS: That's okay. That's okay. I just wondered for some frame of
reference and historical comparison on when this may have happened in the past
as we look to be grateful for the new resources it provides for our County budget,
but also try and tamper and balance that with also the new taxes that that requires
for our people. So thank you, Lisa, I appreciate that. I yield.
MS. MIURA: You're welcome.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Ms. Villegas. Ms. Kimball, go
ahead.
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May 17, 2022
MS. KIMBALL: Thank you, Chair. Good morning, Ms. Miura. I kind of have a
similar question. How is the value the number of appeals, how does that I
mean, obviously it relates to the previous years reported here, but how does that
relate historically? Have we seen this level of appeals previously?
MS. MIURA: Yes, in that same year, that 2009 tax year, we had over 1,500
appeals. This year at certification, we're still under 800. Normally, most counties
will bank on having about one percent of their properties appeal on average a
year. We have 140,905 properties, so we're nowhere near the 1,400 parcel mark.
MS. KIMBALL: And can you just refresh my memory on the timeline for
appeals?
MS. MIURA: So we mail out the assessment notices by March 15 of every year,
and the appeal deadline is April 9 this year; because that fell on a Saturday, it
went to April 11.
MS. KIMBALL: Okay. And then now that those have been received, what is the
timeline for resolving the appeals?
MS. MIURA: So we start appeal—having the hearings usually in late June or
early July, and they go through October.
MS. KIMBALL: Okay. This overall increase of 18 percent, we saw some
pretty—quite a bit of variability, I think in the particularly in the commercial
sector with overall market rates. Can you talk a little bit about—is this 18 percent
pretty much across the board or do you feel like it's in particular property classes?
MS. MIURA: They're in particular property classes. The 18 percent you're
seeing is the average overall. So the lower categories, typically the homeowners,
because they can only increase by three percent. This year it was a little bit more
because we had more parcels come into the homeowners' program that maybe
was sold, and so when the property transfers, it doesn't keep that assessment cap.
It goes back up to market.
The highest increase was in the hotel and resort, but that was also due—if you
remember last year, they were lowered approximately 20 percent, and so that was
removed, and they went up to market. So the commercial and the industrial did
see an increase. We've had more sales of older properties in the commercial area,
in areas that we hadn't seen in the past, and so when we compared it to what our
assessments were, we were extremely low. We were at about 40 percent of
market, so we did have to bring them up.
MS. KIMBALL: Thank you for that. And so just kind of—we had a discussion
in Committee last time with Deputy Director Hunt. I'm still trying to understand
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May 17, 2022
a little bit about—when they are not market comparisons that are for sale,
particularly on commercial properties, it's more difficult to do an assessment. Or
you guys don't do a market -rate based assessment, you do an assessment based on
cost. Is that correct? Am I understanding that correctly?
MS. MIURA: Correct.
MS. KIMBALL: And so is there any mechanism by which the property owner is
made aware that they're you know, this year your assessment is based on a
market assessment versus a cost assessment?
MS. MIURA: No. We send out the assessment notices in March. I think
something fair to all of the public is technically, we should be valuing at the
market value every year, but it's really hard to get what that market value is if you
don't have sales in that category. And one sale doesn't make for the whole
market; so when we're doing a mass appraisal approach, we do need several sales
to gauge it.
MS. KIMBALL: Right.
MS. MIURA: Some counties could just automatically go up a certain percentage;
if the area and residential was going up certain percent, then you can bring up the
market on the commercial, but we tend to use commercial sales for commercial
properties and not just look at what everything else is doing. Residential can
change differently than what commercial is doing, especially during a pandemic.
MS. KIMBALL: Great. Yeah, thank you for all that clarification. That
absolutely makes sense, you know, you don't want to be pulling numbers out of
thin air, you want to be comparing with actual sales.
Just one final question, how does this percent increase compare to the other
counties in Hawaii?
MS. MIURA: So everybody had an increase, but I have not talk to them since
March to see what their appeals were and what their certified values were. I
apologize, we were pretty busy handling our own increase.
MS. KIMBALL: Completely understand. Yeah, all right. Thank you, Chair.
That's all. I yield.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Ms. Kimball. Okay,
Ms. Villegas, follow-up?
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MS. VILLEGAS: I just want a follow-up question, Lisa. So in layman's terms,
this is a market correction. We have for years had under -valued, per se,
properties. Is that—would that be an accurate statement?
MS. MIURA: Unfortunately, you are correct, it is a market correction.
MS. VILLEGAS: Okay. That helps me understand it a little better as we
navigate what nobody ever wants to see. I mean they want the value of their
property to be higher, but not necessarily with the tax that goes along with that
value. I'm trying to formulate that balance in my mind of all the years prior, that
let's say resorts and hotels weren't paying an adequate market value for those
properties. Just trying to find that balance, so thank you for helping me kind of
simplify to that capacity. I yield.
MS. MIURA: Could I just clarify one thing? On the hotels and resorts, there was
some renovations and remodeling done during the pandemic, and so those values
were also picked up for this year. So not everything on the hotels and resorts was
a market correction, it could have been the remodeling and renovations that we
did take into account for this year.
MS. VILLEGAS: Okay, thank you. And I knowI mean, what I've seen in
Kona has been astronomical in the sales of homes and the prices that they're
getting for simple homes. So this is kind of a blessing and the curse of this boon
of sales and extremely inflated pricing, which then equates to values, which then
when it comes to roost at the end, it's just a real challenge on how that lands on
our overall people. But, I'm grateful for the three percent cap for residential.
And as I continue to educate myself and navigate in so many ways, the ironies
last year we were freaking out about budget and taxes and being able to even
make the bare minimum, and here we are on the other side of a pandemic, dealing
with what I wouldn't have expected to have been the case, but it does seem to
make sense based on everything we've just seen happen in the real estate market.
So thank you for your help clarifying and putting numbers to what otherwise can
be a very complex and confusing system. So thank you again, Lisa, for all of
your service. I yield.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Ms. Villegas. Thank you,
Ms. Miura. Mr. Chung, go ahead.
MR. CHUNG: Hey, Lisa, it's Aaron, yeah. You know, has your calculations
taken into consideration the recent sales of real property? Is that all factored into
this certification?
MS. MIURA: Not the 2022 sales. That had to be sales in 2021.
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May 17, 2022
MR. CHUNG: I see. Okay, so it's probably going to be even greater next year
then?
MS. MIURA: It could be. You know, we're still trying to grapple with all the
appeals. I haven't talked to the commercial ladies yet to see how their sales are
looking in 2022. We've seenI know I've looked at listings and some of the
sales. I haven't seen a high increase. I see residential is still increasing.
MR. CHUNG: Right.
MS. MIURA: But not been following commercial as closely this current year.
MR. CHUNG: And the uptick actually only started maybe about, maybe eight
months ago possibly?
MS. MIURA: Summer of 2021 seem to be pretty busy.
MR. CHUNG: Okay. So, you know, I just want to make sure I get this straight
then, so we haven't really seen the full effect of this yet, though?
MS. MIURA: Well, the market hasn't dropped yet that we've seen.
MR. CHUNG: Right.
MS. MIURA: Yeah, we're starting
MR. CHUNG: It's still going up, right?
MS. MIURA: Well, in the mainland we're starting to see certain places having
more inventory as the interest rates increased.
MR. CHUNG: Uh-huh. Okay.
MS. MIURA: Usually we have a delay, so I mean, we're still only in May. I
couldn't tell you what's going to happen this year.
MR. CHUNG: Well, what happened in 2009 then?
MS. MIURA: 2009 the market went up.
MR. CHUNG: And then it didn't go
MS. MIURA: And then it went down.
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May 17, 2022
MR. CHUNG: Okay. Okay, I appreciate that historical perspective. I just kind
of wanted to know. I mean, I think it's a common narrative already. You know,
what happened is that was right around the Great Recession, right? And guys get
out of the market, and then go into real property. Same thing here. You know,
huge run-up, down, all going you know, taking their money out of the stock
market, going into real property. So we might expect, if history has taught us
anything, that it might start to go back down a little bit. I mean, this is really
wreaking havoc on our community that's why.
MS. MIURA: It's wreaking havoc on the whole country I think.
MR. CHUNG: Yeah.
MS. MIURA: No, I mean, it's not—we're not unique at all. But the hard thing,
and the difference is you know, like I told other people, I wouldn't have ever
gambled to see our rates, our values, go up so high. The difference we're seeing
this time is people are cashing out their retirement, selling everything they have
and moving here.
MR. CHUNG: Yeah.
MS. MIURA: And they don't—you know, I don't hear that they intend to leave,
but of course we always see some come and, you know, they miss their family,
and they go back. I just can't predict. I'm horrible. I don't gamble. So I
couldn't I don't want to guess what the market's going to do. I would hope it
starts to soften soon, but I hope a lot of things that don't happen.
MR. CHUNG: Okay, but thank you. And thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the
latitude. You know, Lisa is such a wealth of information, so I figured it might be
useful to get some of that from her, too. Thank you.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Mr. Chung. Ms. Lee Loy, go
ahead.
MS. LEE LOY: Thank you. Good morning, Lisa.
MS. MIURA: Good morning.
MS. LEE LOY: You know, building off of what Aaron spoke about, you also
touched up a lot of the remodeling that happened, and that is actually what
increased of the market value. Best guess, when did that construction start? Just
as forecast. I'm trying to nail down some other indicators on the taxation but also
as it relates to construction.
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May 17, 2022
MS. MIURA: I couldn't guess. I know the hotels did take advantage during the
pandemic when they had no visitors, on doing remodeling and renovations. Some
finished earlier, but we did not pick that up until this year.
MS. LEE LOY: Thanks, Lisa. You mentioned earlier, a kind of a course -
correction on our values, but historically, Hawaii County has had low values
compared to other counties, correct?
MS. MIURA: Yes, we're still lower than other counties. I think our island is still
the most affordable in the State.
MS. LEE LOY: Great. And then related to the short of 800 appeals, what is the
timeline for those to be resolved?
MS. MIURA: Well, we're trying to hear everything by October. It just depends
on the schedule. We have to work with the board, who are all volunteers; and so
we need to schedule it when they're available. Right now, we only have four
members, we need to have three to be able to vote or make any decisions. And so
if somebody is not available, then we try and make sure that the meetings are held
when they are available. And so we'd like to see our meetings completed by the
end of October.
MS. LEE LOY: Great. Thanks, Lisa. As Aaron said, you just have so much
knowledge. Chair, I yield.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Ms. Lee Loy. Okay, seeing no
further discussion from the Council. Ms. Miura, thank you for being here this
morning. What's interesting to me is the amount of appeals. There is a huge
increase in appeals, but the valuation, the dispute, and as you stated we're not
going to know that number until later this year, but it was about a $600,000
increase in disputed amount. What were the biggest—what were the areas, the
property tax classes that disputed the most?
MS. MIURA: The apartment class has the highest number of appeals filed, but
not necessarily the highest value in dispute, if that makes sense.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay.
MS. MIURA: Yeah, the two areas with the highest value in dispute would be
hotel and resort, and commercial, but they're actual number of appeals filed is
much less than the apartment complex.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay, so the highest value of dispute is
hotel and resort?
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May 17, 2022
MS. MIURA: And commercial.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: And commercial. And then the highest
number of disputes was in the apartment class?
MS. MIURA: Correct. It's also in the certification. I believe on page 11 on the
upper right, it will be AB 103HI.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: And I like that you broke this down too, it
breaks down each class. But then you also go into more detail, you know, each
Council district, which really gives each Council Member the ability to really see
which of the classes that they really speak for in their districts.
MS. MIURA: Just keep in mind, this year we had the new lines drawn, yeah, for
the Council districts.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Yes.
MS. MIURA: So if you're looking at it compared to last year, some Council
Members may see a bigger change than others, but that's due to the new
alignment of the Council boundaries.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: So the districts in this report are
representative of the current, before Redistricting Commission's findings?
MS. MIURA: No. We have to reflect what this year's redistricting is.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. Okay, so these are the new districts
for each Council Member?
MS. MIURA: Correct.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Interesting, okay. Well—I mean, this
plays in very importantly to our budget and our timeline, and it also plays in when
we start discussing property increases, decreases, especially as proposed by the
mayor recently. So I greatly appreciate this information.
And one follow-up question, on page 11 for the Class Summary of Taxable
Properties what does "NO. OF PITTS" mean?
MS. MIURA: PITTS is your tax classes, so that's the number of parcels that you
have in each of those tax classes; so when you see affordable rental 1,570, that's
the number of parcels being taxed at the Affordable Rental tax class.
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May 17, 2022
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: So then PITTS, what is—PITTS is an
acronym for?
MS. MIURA: It's an old term for our tax codes. We should probably change that
to make it clear, but it's an old tax term for assessments.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. Okay, I was looking for a
breakdown of the acronym, but I couldn't find those, so I had to ask. And looking
over this too, I mean, you see residential, agricultural, and homeowner are our
largest classes.
MS. MIURA: Correct.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Whereas, commercial, industrial,
conservation, hotel and resort, fairly small in the amount of the numbers of
parcels, correct?
MS. MIURA: That's correct.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Yeah, very interesting. Okay, well great
information. You know, I thank you. This ties in very well with our budget
process of course. I mean of course it does, but also it helps us guide our
decision-making when we discuss other items that are on the agenda. So mahalo,
Lisa. I appreciate it.
MS. MIURA: You're welcome.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay, Council Members, any discussion
before I close out Lisa? Ms. Kimball, go ahead.
MS. KIMBALL: Thank you. I apologize, I have one quick question. I realize
Lisa, you made the comment about—remember during the pandemic, when we
gave the hotels the 20 percent break, actually I don't. Can you revisit that real
quickly? How exactly did that—?
MS. MIURA: So the hotels and resorts during there were no sales during the
pandemic time, but we also recognized a lot of the counties throughout the
country were providing a tax -valued discount on the fact that many hotels didn't
have guests. And so on January 1st of 2021, it was a very different scenario,
everything was closed and we weren't I can't remember the exact timing of the
Mayor's and the Governor's proclamations, but they did receive a 20 percent
lower valuation. And us and Maui County were at 20 percent; and I don't
remember City and County in Kauai, they were at a little bit less, like 18 percent.
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May 17, 2022
So this year the hotels opened back up, not just on January 1, 2022, but earlier.
So that discount did go away, and it wasn't some arbitrary number. But there
were no sales, there was no income, and hotels are very income -based, even
though we didn't have enough data for an income approach. When we met with
Maui County, Kauai County, and City and County of Honolulu, Maui did hire a
group to do an estimate of what the loss was, and they actually prepared
something for them, that the rest of the counties were able to benefit from because
we didn't have money to pay for the study.
MS. KIMBALL: Okay, thank you. So just so we're all crystal clear, when we
see on average this 18.5 percent increase, when we're talking about the
resort/hotel properties, are we comparing back to 2021 with the discount or are we
comparing back to 2020 when there wasn't the discount? I'm just trying to
understand if we're rolling—when we compare the increase, are we including the
discount or not?
MS. MIURA: Yeah, so in 2021, we took the net taxable of the hotels, and then in
2022, what you're seeing is the net taxable for the hotels again. So that net
taxable in 2021 did include that discount.
MS. KIMBALL: All right. Thank you very much for the clarification. Chair, I
yield.
MS. MIURA: You're welcome.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Ms. Kimball. Lisa, I have one
follow-up question, as well. Oh, sorry. Ms. David, go ahead.
MS. DAVID: I'll be really quick. Aloha, Ms. Miura. I just have a question on
your summary of your land classes. I'm looking at my district, and on every
summary there's a number six that says—why would you have a valuation
on appeal, and then 50 percent of that valuation? What is the purpose for that
half -mark on the valuation?
MS. MIURA: That's a great question. So it is in our County Code that our
certification has to recognize 50 percent of the appealed value in a dispute so that
when the administration is preparing their budget, they're not hit with all the loss
or some of the loss in appeals.
MS. DAVID: I see.
MS. MIURA: And they didn't take it into account in their budget and then they
would be short because Deanna has to do a balanced budget. So it's actually
required.
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May 17, 2022
MS. DAVID: Oh, okay. I see, makes total sense. I was just wondering. Thank
you so much for that explanation. I yield.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Ms. Villegas, go ahead.
MS. VILLEGAS: Yes. Lisa, quick question. As I'm going through this
breakdown, which is incredibly helpful with tax zones, I'm assuming those are
our districts, you know, one through nine. It seems to make logical sense in my
mind that a lot of the disputed amounts are in Districts 2 and 7 for commercial
and industrial, as those tend to be kind of the more urban areas on the island. But
I was a little bit surprised when I got to the hotel and resort, and it—Zone 6,
which is Chair David's, 23 properties. I suppose I was expecting to see—and
once again, this is about dispute amounts not the number of properties in this
class, in these districts. But can you explain just a little bit? Because it looks like
the lion's share is in District 6, which is
MS. MIURA: Can you confirm the report number on the upper right? Because
we have some that are going to zone, TMK (Tax Map Key) zones, and then some
to Council districts, and I want to make sure we're looking at Council District and
not TMK zones.
MS. VILLEGAS: Oh, good. Oh, good. Oh, these are TMK zones, and my
apologies.
MS. MIURA: Yeah, that would make more sense. No that's okay, it is
confusing.
MS. VILLEGAS: Okay. Where would then the—and how does TMK zones
work, one through nine?
MS. MIURA: So one through nine, TMK Zone 2 is mostly Hilo, TMK Zone 6 is
going to be mostly Waik6loa side.
MS. VILLEGAS: Gotcha.
MS. MIURA: Yeah.
MS. VILLEGAS: Which is where the lion's share of resorts is.
MS. MIURA: Right. And TMK Zone 7 would be yours and Holeka's area in
Kona.
MS. VILLEGAS: Okay. Okay, so there is synchronicity in those districts, except
that the six and the eight are kind of swapped.
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MS. MIURA: Yeah, correct.
MS. VILLEGAS: Okay. Okay, that's helpful to understand. Thank you for
clarifying that. That gives me a—makes this a little bit clearer mud. Appreciate
it. Thanks, Lisa.
MS. MIURA: No problem.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Ms. Villegas. Okay, not seeing
any more lights on, my follow-up question was very similar to what Ms. David
asked. I was more touching on the you know, we have 797 appeals, $718
million in dispute, and then the kind of go -to number is 50 percent of that
disputed valuation that we look for, for budgeting for next—this coming fiscal
year. Is that correct?
MS. MIURA: Correct. But in the certified values that you received, and that 18
percent increase, it already takes into account the disputes, so you don't have to
add it on top of it.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay.
MS. MIURA: The way it breaks down is it shows you what we assessed and then
what the appeals were on top of that. But the total numbers that Finance and
administration provide to you, already take into account the disputed values.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay, thank you. And then classically,
when you see appeals, I know it's going to vary, but I mean is there kind of a
general percentage that you see when appeals are—well, when someone appeals,
what is the percentage of the people who actually can move forward with an
appeal and win? You know, "win"?
MS. MIURA: So there's several different phases to the appeal process. So after
they submit the appeal, the appraisers look at what the appeal is, as well
depending on what they're appealing. Sometimes they appeal the valuation, or
they're just appealing the tax class or the fact that they didn't get an exemption.
And so if it's on the appraisal side, they'll look at it. They usually call the owners
or whoever filed the appeals; some people have representation, and they talk to
them about the comparable sales that we are going to bring up in the appeal
hearing.
We also see if we made a mistake; so the appraiser goes back out, tries to
schedule an appointment, look at the property, makes sure the size is correct. You
know, all of the times if the appellants write that the size that we have on our
website is not matching what they believe their property to be, that can handle a
lot of the issues that they're seeing or the difference in value.
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May 17, 2022
And then we share what some of the sales have been or what we're looking at,
and we look at what they're looking at. So you can come to a settlement, what we
call a settlement or a stipulation, which means the County is recognizing that
either we made an error in something or we didn't look at something that the
appellant brought to us. Those need to be approved by the supervisors before an
appraiser can make a settlement offer to any appellant, and that's to make sure
that, you know, we're not favoring one person over another or any property over
another property.
If there is no agreement ahead of time—and likewise, we do have some appellants
that just say, "I didn't realize those sales occurred in my area." You know, they
don't always follow the market as closely as we're required to do so, and they will
withdraw. So if they withdraw and settle, they get their appeal fee returned,
which is $50, also by County Code.
And from those that actually make it to the hearing, at that point, I believe it was
about 60 percent to 40 percent; that 60 percent, we won; 40 percent, the appellants
won. That was based on last year's numbers. It changes year to year. It just
depends on what's being appealed to and what's happened in the market.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay, that makes sense. And I understand
that every year is a little bit different. Ms. Villegas, go ahead.
MS. VILLEGAS: Yeah, one more question that popped into my mind.
Something that I've been hearing a lot lately from people concerned about these
new assessed values and the correlating increases in taxes, is the burden that it
presents to small business owners, our mom-and-pop establishments, which
historically have been the lifeblood of our community and such a part of the
culture and history of our island home. In your experience, does this increase
drastically affect those kinds of smaller properties that are owned by our smaller
local businesses?
MS. MIURA: So I think the issue island -wide is going to be that—the sales that
we've been seeing that we haven't had in the past, where we've been
predominantly, I'm going to say low at the 40 percent sales, have been on the
older commercial properties. We've not seen very many sales through the years
on older commercial properties, whereas we have seen in this past year. So when
you're looking at the market being corrected, there's a lot more on the Hilo side
and the older properties because West Hawaii has had quite a bit of sale through
the years in all types of commercial and industrial.
MS. VILLEGAS: Yeah.
MS. MIURA: So they're seeing the more constant increase, whereas other areas
of the island may not have. It is difficult. I'm not trying to be defensive; I'm just
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May 17, 2022
trying to share how the real property tax is looked at. If we try to increase
incrementally through the years with no sales, and try to say, "Well, the rest of the
island got it," when we get to the board, we're not going to win those cases
because they're going to want to see sales.
Likewise, when we have a lot of sales and go to the board, it is going to be more
difficult for the commercial property owners to show that the property is not
worth it. That you can look at it two ways; the people who are definitely critical
of our office is going to say, "Well, you guys were too low in past years, which
means you weren't collecting enough taxes from them, so the rest of us are
making up for that." We do get those calls, and we are hearing them. And then
others feel like, "Well, that was a drastic increase in one year," but we had no
sales in years prior to accommodate for it. And I realize not everybody is
following the market as closely, especially if you're just trying to do your
business and get things going.
But it is a big burden for anybody to have a drastic increase. I think the difficulty
for our office is when residential has a lot of sales and they see, you know, it
going up every year, and then they see commercial not really increasing but they
know if their value increased, theirs can't be still down here. You know, we've
gotten push back from people who said, "Oh, I went up 300 percent," and when
we look at some of them, and that's why I like to look at TMK numbers not
generalities. You know, we had your old building at $60,000; your next-door
neighbor sold it for $350,000. So yeah, we brought it up to $300,000, and that's
going to look like a ridiculous increase, but the unfortunate truth is we were really
low.
MS. VILLEGAS: Right.
MS. MIURA: And that's a fault of our office. But, you know, we can't continue
to perpetuate it, especially with all the sales that have happened in this last year.
MS. VILLEGAS: Right. Thank you for helping to clarify some of that. I just
think of things, you know, in the business world, like we're all having to adjust
our own even personal budgets for the price of gas right now, which is something
we don't have personal control over. It's just kind of a given that okay, gas prices
are going up, we have to adjust our budgets.
And I suppose, I think of—in District 7, which I have the responsibility of
representing, is we have a lot of corporate commercial properties that I
historically, the argument for reducing their tax burden is that then the tax burden
is reduced for the small businesses that they rent to. I suppose I want to challenge
that prior paradigm and belief system that whenI think that some of the
responsibility resides also with these partners, and property owners, and renters to
take a look at what—I'm sorry, the landlords not the renters—my hope is that
Page 19
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May 17, 2022
there will be some joint responsibility there for businesses that are larger, that
have more corporate backing and more line -items to absorb another expense
versus you know, I'm trying to find the balance of what just get handed down to
the small business owner.
So as you help clarify, you know, where the properties are that tend to be your
smaller business and property owners and how they're affected, I am just trying to
get real clear on, you know, what the true impacts are to small business versus
large corporate landlords, and the way that they incorporate increased expenses
because I know we're all having to increase line -item that deals with gas prices or
other expenses. I just want to challenge the business models to—as we have to
navigate this, I don't know, to look at equity as that gets spread around to
everyone.
So I feel like I'm bumbling here, but I hope the value that I'm trying to express is
coming forward, and I thank you for your help clarifying, based on the data. So I
yield.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Ms. Villegas. Okay, Lisa, so
this is just interesting to me. We were contacted by many people over the last
couple of months regarding valuations, and we're all aware of that. But what's
interesting to me is from what you said today, the reason, or maybe one of the
reasons that we see such drastic increases is really based on the prices of the real
estate that is being sold surrounding your home. Is that a fair statement?
MS. MIURA: Yeah, if you're looking at residential, then we're comparing it to
other residential properties, correct.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay, so say if you have a home, you
know, you've been taxed to a certain value, your neighbor sells the house in an
extremely increased market for way more than it has ever been worth before,
when we come back as a County and we assess that value of your home, you are
then matched with people around you?
MS. MIURA: Correct, on a mass -appraisal basis. So one sale was not going to
make a market, but it's on the total of the area; so all the homes around you, what
they have come up in total, you are also going to come up. Does that make sense?
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. That makes perfect sense, and
really touches on—as we see the market race, and the market starts to go crazy,
people are selling because the markets up. There's a lot of folks who make
money along that whole process, and as we create that kind of bubble, or as the
bubble creates itself really, it leads to everybody getting cracked with taxes on the
backend. So the two go hand-in-hand to me. And so it's getting all those emails
saying, "We're worried about the cost of the taxes that have gone up," but what
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drove them were the sale prices and the market on the frontend. It has to be
looked at, not in form of policy, but just in the form of—look, this is the reality of
where we live, and this is the reality of when the market goes crazy, so does the
taxes.
So we're looking at sale prices, and everyone is making money and having fun,
but on the back end is we're going to get taxed heavy. The rates haven't changed,
but the taxes did. And I really think that needs to be stated because it is so
important to understand as a whole, that picture. Unless I said something wrong,
that's kind of how I'm seeing it today.
MS. MIURA: But yeah, that's true. The only thing I would probably add is we
set the values based on market, that is required by County Code. And whether or
not the tax rates decrease to match, I mean, just because values increase, that
doesn't mean tax rates have to stay the same. There are other counties throughout
the country that will adjust tax rates annually. It has been less, I don't know that
the right word isit'swe don't view increasing tax rates very kindly here, but
that's you know unfortunately, that's really out of my scope. I have to just give
you guys what the assessed values are, and then it's up to administration and
ultimately Council to set the tax rates based on those values and the budget.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Understood. Understood, okay. But thank
you, Ms. Miura. I appreciate it. You know, this is very, very helpful as we move
forward. So just thank you for your time today.
MS. MIURA: You're welcome.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. With that, sorry to belabor the
point, folks. It was interesting tome. With that, we have a motion on the floor to
close file on Communication 794. Council Members, all in favor?
Vote on Comm. 794: The motion to close file on Comm. 794 was carried by
Filed the following voice vote:
Ayes: Committee Members Chung, David, Inaba,
Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Lee Loy, Richards,
Villegas, and Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder – 9
Noes: None.
Absent: None.
Excused: None.
ORDER OF The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business,
RESOLUTIONS: Order of Resolutions.
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Res. 408-22
Motion to Approve
May 17, 2022
AUTHORIZES THE ACCEPTANCE OF ALL DONATIONS OF SECURITIES
OR PERSONAL PROPERTY TO THE COUNTY OF HAWAII WITHIN THE
FISCAL YEAR 2022-2023 THAT ARE NOT COVERED BY THE
DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE'S CAPITALIZATION PROCEDURES
Provides County Council pre -authorization for the County to accept donations that
are not covered by the Finance Department's capitalization procedures for Fiscal
Year 2022-2023.
Reference: Comm. 786
Intr. by: Mr. Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder (B/R)
Mr. Inaba moved to recommend adoption of
Res. 408-22. Seconded by Ms. Lee Loy.
CHR KANEALII-KLEINFELDER: Council Members, discussion? Any
discussion, Council Members? Okay, Ms. Sako, I have one question.
(Note: At this time, Finance Director Deanna Sako came forward to
address the members of the Committee.
CHR KANEALII-KLEINFELDER: Is there any documentation that goes with
this to show the donations or dollar amounts, or is this just in general?
MS. SAKO: Yeah, so this current year is the first year we did this. So this is
actually just preparing the resolution for the next fiscal year to follow the same
process, and we'll continue to come in with the quarterly reports to reflect all
that's donated.
CHR KANEALII-KLEINFELDER: Beautiful. That's what I thought. Thank
you.
MS. SAKO: Yeah.
CHR KANEALII-KLEINFELDER: Thank you. Okay, with that, Council
Members, motion on the floor is to close file, sorry, to forward Resolution 408 to
Council with a favorable recommendation. All in favor?
Page 22
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Vote on Res. 408-22
(Approved)
The motion to recommend adoption of Res. 408-22
was carried by the following voice vote:
Ayes: Committee Members David, Inaba,
Kimball, Lee Loy, Richards, Villegas,
and Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder — 7.
Noes: None.
Absent: Committee Members Chung and
Kierkiewicz — 2.
Excused: None.
May 17, 2022
CHR KANEALII-KLEINFELDER: Moving on to Resolution 409.
Res. 409-22: AUTHORIZES THE OFFICE OF THE MAYOR TO ENTER INTO AN
AGREEMENT WITH THE FEDERAL HIGHWAY ADMINISTRATION,
PURSUANT TO HAWAII REVISED STATUTES, SECTION 46-7, FOR A
GRANT TO THE DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS
Allows for the receipt of $726,000, to add 15 Hawaii Island Bikeshare stations
in Kailua-Kona and Hilo.
Motion to Close File
Vote on Res. 409-22
(Approved)
Reference: Comm. 787
Intr. by: Mr. Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder (B/R)
Mr. Inaba moved to recommend adoption of
Res. 409-22. Seconded by Ms. Lee Loy.
CHR KANEALII-KLEINFELDER: Council Members, discussion? Okay,
seeing none. I think this is a tremendous move towards being more sustainable
and offering different forms of transportation, and just I really like this. So
mahalo for everyone's work on this item. With that, we have a motion on the
floor. All in favor, Council Members?
The motion to recommend adoption of Res. 409-22
was carried by the following voice vote:
Ayes: Committee Members David, Inaba,
Kimball, Lee Loy, Villegas, and
and Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder — 6.
Noes: None.
Absent: Committee Members Chung, Kierkiewicz,
and Richards — 3.
Excused: None.
CHR KANEALII-KLEINFELDER: Moving onto Resolution 410.
Page 23
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May 17, 2022
Res. 410-22: AUTHORIZES THE DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS TO AWARD
FUNDS TO THE PEOPLES ADVOCACY FOR TRAILS HAWAII
Provides grant funds in the amount of $726,000, to purchase, ship, and install
15 additional Hawaii Island Bikeshare stations.
Reference: Comm. 788
Intr. by: Mr. Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder (B/R)
; and
Comm. 788.1: From Finance Director Deanna S. Sako, dated May 10, 2022, transmitting
proposed amendments to Res. 410-22.
Motion to Approve: Mr. Inaba moved to recommend adoption of
Res. 410-22. Seconded by Ms. Lee Loy.
CHR KANEALII-KLEINFELDER: Council Members? Actually, I think we
should make the motion to amend, correct? Maybe we can do it either way, but if
we get both on the floor, then we can proceed to discuss all of it as amended?
MR. BROWN: Yes, that is correct.
CHR KANEALII-KLEINFELDER: Okay. Council Members, can I have a
motion to amend the contents?
Motion to Amend: Mr. Inaba moved to amend Res. 410-22 with the
contents of Comm. 788.1. Seconded by Ms. Lee Loy.
CHR KANEALII-KLEINFELDER: Council Members, discussion? Do we
have to vote on that, sir?
MR. BROWN: You would. The discussion would be limited to the amendment
right now.
CHR KANEALII-KLEINFELDER: Okay. So Council Members, discussion on
the amendment?
MS. VILLEGAS: Just a quick question. So the difference in funding, or the
amount of money here, is $726,000 versus $907,500. Deanna, can you explain
that?
(Note: At this time, Finance Director Deanna Sako came forward to
address the members of the Committee.)
MS. SAKO: Sure. We forgot to include the County match. So we are receiving
$726,000, but we're required to do a match, so the total amount that we're giving
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May 17, 2022
out includes the County match. We forgot that in the original resolution, and so
that money is budgeted in Mass Transit's budget for FY (Fiscal Year 2023), the
match.
MS. VILLEGAS: Fantastic. Thank you for that. And I also want to express my
heartfelt gratitude for PATH (Peoples Advocacy for Trails Hawaii) and the work
that they've done to secure this funding and work with the County on a match,
and continue to navigate, getting our community to have it, and providing safe
access to multi -modal forms of transportation around the island. So thank you
again to PATH. I remember when they were first formulating and how far
they've come, and the impact that they have had on our community and our forms
of transportation. So thank you again for clarifying. And how cool, another
$1 million just about for this purpose, so thank you. I yield.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Mahalo, Ms. Villegas. Ms. Kierkiewicz.
MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you, Chair. Deanna, just a couple of follow-up
questions. Is there a like a master plan or methodology around where the
different stations are going to be placed around the island.
MS. SAKO: I have not seen that, but there probably is. I can have somebody
hopefully transmit that before next reading.
MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Yeah, and I'm also thinking that for Council, just really
curious around the usage of the existing stations; and if PATH has that data, I
think we would all be really interested in seeing over time how many folks are
utilizing the bike service. Thanks, Director.
MS. SAKO: I'll see what we can do.
MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Thanks, Chair. I yield.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Ms. Kierkiewicz. Ms. Lee
Loy, go ahead.
MS. LEE LOY: Thank you, Chair. Ms. Kierkiewicz, I'll also invite Mass Transit
to be part of that conversation because some of that conversation was about bus
stop located to a bike share, which gets them like in the university, or down at the
hotels, or whatever. So I'll definitely reach out to them to provide that before our
reading at Council. I yield.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Ms. Lee. Okay, we have—
MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Chair, I have one more thing.
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Vote on Motion
to Amend:
(Approved)
May 17, 2022
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Go ahead, Ms. Kierkiewicz.
MS. KIERKIEWICZ: I don't if Council Member Lee Loy or Director Sako,
you're able to facilitate this, but just the cost over time to maintain the bicycles,
I'm curious about what that looks like, just the wear and tear of the equipment.
Thank you.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Ms. Kierkiewicz. Okay, so we
have the motion to—seeing no further discussion. We are on the motion to
amend.
MR. BROWN: The motion is the motion to amend.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay, so we have the motion to amend
Resolution 410 with the contents of Comm. 788.1 on the floor. Seeing no further
discussion, all in favor?
The motion to amend Res. 410-22 with the contents of
Comm. 788.1 as carried by the following voice vote:
Ayes: Committee Members Chung, David, Inaba,
Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Lee Loy, Richards,
Villegas, and Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder – 9
Noes: None.
Absent: None.
Excused: None.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: And then coming back to the main
motion on Resolution 410, as amended. Council Members, discussion? Okay,
seeing none. You know, just on a personal note, I was able to visit Spain, pre-
COVID, and on that trip we rode these motorized bikes, just like the ones that
we're providing. It was such a neat opportunity because you're not using a
vehicle, in the sense of a car. You're not using a taxi. You're not using bus.
You're not depending on fossil fuels. You're riding a little bike. It was such a
neat way to get around some of the larger cities and to view parks, and then jump
off and get something to eat.
So thisI mean, given where we live, it's beautiful here. This style of
transportation offers so much to visitors and for residents both. So I really think
this is a really neat program that can do some greatness for our community,
especially in light of the cost of gas right not. So, thank you for that. With that,
we have a motion on the floor to forward Resolution 410, as amended, to Council
with a favorable recommendation. All in favor, Council?
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Vote on Res. 410-22: The motion to recommend adoption of Res. 410-22,
Draft 2 as amended to Draft 2, was carried by the following
(Approved) voice vote:
Ayes: Committee Members Chung, David, Inaba,
Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Lee Loy, Richards,
Villegas, and Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder — 9
Noes: None.
Absent: None.
Excused: None.
CHR KANEALII-KLEINFELDER: Moving on to Bill 156, please.
BILLS FOR The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business,
ORDINANCES: Bills for Ordinances.
Bill 156: AMENDS CHAPTER 19, ARTICLE 7, SECTION 19-53, OF THE
HAWAII COUNTY CODE 1983 (2016 EDITION, AS AMENDED),
RELATING TO REAL PROPERTY TAX VALUATION;
CONSIDERATIONS IN FIXING
Establishes that the value of property classified as apartment, hotel and resort,
commercial, industrial, agricultural or native forests, or conservation cannot
be assessed by the County at more than 15 percent than the previous year's
assessed value for that property.
Reference: Comm. 739
Intr. by: Ms. Lee Loy
Postponed: April 19, 2022
(Note: There is a motion by Ms. Lee Loy, seconded by Mr. Richards, to
recommend passage of Bill 156.)
CHR KANEALII-KLEINFELDER: Mahalo, Mr. Clerk. So the motion is on
the floor correct, already? Okay, Ms. Lee Loy, you want to lead the discussion?
MS. LEE LOY: Oh, thank you, Chair. You know this postponement was
definitely couched with the understanding that we would be getting our certified
values, which we actually spoke about just about a few communications ago.
You know, we have so much information. I actually wanted to seeDeanna, I
have just a couple quick questions. I'm looking forward to the rest of my
colleagues' feedback. You know, Mr. Chung told me the very first day I walked
into this job that the real property tax is a most complex piece of legislation we
have, not only here at the County level but at the State level, also. And I tried to
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maybe over -simplify. There are two parts that go into our real property tax, the
assessed value and the rates. Yes?
(Note: At this time, Finance Director Deanna Sako came forward to
address the members of the Committee.)
MS. SAKO: Yes, correct.
MS. LEE LOY: And this bill actually sets it for the next fiscal year, correct?
MS. SAKO: I believe that is the way we read it, yes.
MS. LEE LOY: Yeah, we read it. Well, I'm confirming.
MS. SAKO: That's the way we read it, yes.
MS. LEE LOY: I wanted—
MS. SAKO: Good job.
MS. LEE LOY: Good job, thanks. I wanted to give us some time to be better at
forecasting, and create some stability for a lot of these industries that saw this big
jump. But the other piece to that is setting the rates, which we now know the
administration has dialed back a little bit, correct?
MS. SAKO: Yes.
MS. LEE LOY: Okay. For the market assessI'm trying to use the right
vocabulary every time—for the assessed values, when does that need to be set by?
MS. SAKO: So the assessed values are set as of January I" each year, and they
have to go out in March to give the taxpayers time to appeal their assessments.
MS. LEE LOY: So this particular legislation, we have a little bit more time to
really take a look at the information that's coming out, really kind of take a look
at our budget over the next few days and hear from the community. Then Lisa
gave great information because that 18 percent, 18.6 I think it was on the certified
values, that's an average across all the categories.
MS. SAKO: Correct, yes.
MS. LEE LOY: Correct. And homeowners, not to be confused with residential,
has a three percent cap?
MS. SAKO: Right.
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MS. LEE LOY: Along with?
MS. SAKO: Affordable rentals.
MS. LEE LOY: Affordable rentals. So that's kind of like in a kite that's the
string, that's what's holding us at that bottom end, which is three percent
homeowners and affordable rentals. And then the most extreme we saw was hotel
resort.
MS. SAKO: Right. And part of that was, as Lisa mentioned, because of the
20 percent previous decrease.
MS. LEE LOY: Right. And so between those two bookends, we've got an
average of about 18.6 percent, okay. You know, I want to hear from the rest of
my colleagues. I heard them ask a lot of questions, especially about the ability to
maybe step into this incrementally, where we could actually still achieve some
level of growth through the assessed values, where they wouldn't take such a hard
hit. I know that's also really challenging. I hear a lot of them talking about
balance, and really seeing if that is actually going to get passed on to the
consumer, to the renter. And one category I purposely left out was residential.
And, Deanna, explain to us what is in that residential category?
MS. SAKO: So Lisa is still in Kona, and Keita is here behind me, so if I say
anything wrong they will come up and correct it. But basically, residential are the
people who either choose not to apply for homeowners' exemption, or it's like a
second home, so they wouldn't qualify. And most of the time, it means they don't
live on our island long enough to become a resident or to qualify for that
exemption. But second homes are people who are not residents.
MS. LEE LOY: Okay. Open not Open Space, but unbuilt, like
MS. SAKO: Vacant land.
MS. LEE LOY: Vacant land, there we go. Is that in the residential category?
MS. SAKO: There is vacant land in the residential area.
MS. LEE LOY: Okay, and then in our short-term vacation rentals?
MS. SAKO: I would think many of them are in this category, yes. Lisa is
nodding.
MS. LEE LOY: Okay, thank you for that. For the rest of my colleagues, you
know, there's two ways to write legislation, with a dull axe or with a scalpel, and
this definitely was a dull axe to bring everybody's attention to this, how we
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navigate this complex situation. I'm open to whatever suggestions, also knowing
that we do have a little bit of time to maybe take out that scalpel, because that one
category residential, there's benefits I know personally to vacant lands. For
example, my child bought a property, but that value went up and now she can
qualify better for her home. That's a good thing.
But we have short-term vacation rentals also in that category. And I also want to
try and figure out a way to navigate that particular category better so that we're
providing advantages for people who are first-time homeowners who bought their
property and are trying to qualify for a mortgage, while still taking a good look at
our short-term vacation rentals and how they're in that category.
So with that, I'm open to any suggestions and any pathway forward. I think this
is some guardrails that some of our industry and our community is asking for. I
yield.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Mahalo, Ms. Lee Loy. Mr. Chung, go
ahead.
MR. CHUNG: Well, Ms. Lee Loy answered the first question that I had
regarding the residential. I was wondering why it was not included in this, and I
knew she probably had a very good reason for it. But isn't the residential class
also inclusive of those properties that comprise our rental pool as well?
MS. SAKO: Yes, if they're not in the affordable rental.
MR. CHUNG: Right.
MS. SAKO: So they would be doing market -rate rentals.
MR. CHUNG: Yeah. So it's not just second homes. These are people who are
renting out properties, as well, right?
MS. SAKO: No, no, that's correct.
MR. CHUNG: So that's an important component of
MS. SAKO: But we would encourage them to apply for the affordable rental.
MR. CHUNG: Okay. Okay. But there are some conditions that come with that
as well, right?
MS. SAKO: Right, in terms of what you can charge, correct.
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MR. CHUNG: Yeah. Yeah, okay. And, you know, another thing to consider,
you know, when you're talking about short-term vacation rentals, as well as
what is that thing that we're dealing with in Waikoloa? What do you call it?
Time shares, yeah. You know, we might want to even consider making different
classifications for those categories or properties. You know, I mean those seem to
be problematic in the whole scheme of things, so that's something else you might
want to consider, just kind of included of creating more stuff.
I said on many occasions I'm not a real big fan of this cap because I'm kind of set
in a certain kind of mold already, and maybe I've got to try and extricate myself
from that. But we do have the assessment and rate system right now.
MS. SAKO: Correct.
MR. CHUNG: What is being proposed here—and I'll probably support it,
because remember I said the last time, you know 15 percent, that's not too bad,
yeah? That's actually a fair amount. But when we start capping the assessments,
that really restricts the County's ability, because what if we need the money?
We're stuck already. We may as well just include residential in here, if we're
going to go with this system, and then just get rid of the whole rate arrangement
already. But I don't like that, you know, I really don't. So I'm just throwing
those things out for consideration, since we are going to be considering this thing
moving forward. Thank you.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Mahalo, Mr. Chung. Mr. Inaba, go ahead.
(NOTE: At this time, Mr. Inaba was speaking, however his microphone
was not working, and Ms. Sako was responding to his questions.)
MS. SAKO: Fifteen percent cap, right?
MR.INABA: (inaudible)
MS. SAKO: I don't have it in front of me, but yes, in some areas we did exceed
that. But the thing that's going to be challenging for our team is to distinguish the
part that was because they did improvements, so as Lisa mentioned, especially the
hotels took advantage of the opportunity; did a lot of improvements. We would
have to assess parcel -by -parcel what was new additions or improvements versus
what was the impact of the market value. And that I cannot tell you today.
MR. INABA: Okay. In the (inaudible)
MS. SAKO: Right. Several of the classes were over 15 percent. But as we
mentioned, hotels and resorts were kind of recovering back up to normal, and then
whatever additions. They're also the same group that had a lot of improvements.
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In any given year, most classifications have some improvements. You know,
people are improving their property on a regular basis.
MR. INABA: I think it's hard to make a decision on this. I mean yeah, because
15 percent is quite a lot of a jump. So it's not saying we're going to cap them at
three, but at the same time without knowing what caused those jumps, or if it was
just as simple as your neighbor sold and this happened, versus they poured in
millions to their property.
MR. BROWN: Excuse me. Council Member Inaba, if you don't mind, I think
we're having some trouble with the mic. Our livestream is not picking you up, so
if you don't mind, we're going to try and move you to the wireless mic. Chair, do
you mind if we take a real quick recess so we can get Holeka back up and
running, please?
MR. INABA: I can just yield.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: We'll take a brief recess.
MR. BROWN: Thank you.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Yep, thank you, Mr. Clerk.
Recess: At 10:26 a.m., the Chair called for a recess.
Reconvene: The meeting reconvened at 10:28 a.m.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay, we're out of recess and coming back
to Mr. Inaba. Go ahead, sir, when you're ready.
MR. INABA: Yeah, I just wanted to say it is a little bit difficult not knowing all
of those details with regards to which properties and how much we were over that
15 percent assessment. So I would like to hear from other colleagues of mine and
see where we can go with this. Thank you, Chair. I yield.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Mr. Inaba. Mr. Richards, go
ahead.
MR. RICHARDS: Thank you, Chair. I might take a little bit of a different tack
on this. From a budgetary standpoint, as Ms. Lee Loy has talked about it, we're
talking about guardrails, and guardrails for the constituency as well as the County
as we go forward with assessed values. And I don't know, Deanna or Lisa, who
answers this question, but hypothetically, if we have an assessed value that went
up, pick a number, 25 percent, but we limit it to 15 percent a year, the first year
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we go up 15 percent, and the second year we would go up the following 10
percent, is that an accurate statement?
MS. SAKO: It is, but if the following year they went up another 10 percent, they
may still end up going up the full 15.
MR. RICHARDS: Correct.
MS. SAKO: Yes.
MR. RICHARDS: Yeah.
MS. SAKO: And then in years of decline, they—you know, we may go down
quite a bit, but the assessments could still be going up because they haven't
caught up to the 15 -year increments yet. So because they were capped, they may
still be under market value, potentially.
MR. RICHARDS: Yeah, I understand what you're saying there. The other side
is kind of planning a business, and when you're going up. But if we're going to
put a guardrail on the assessed value going up, do we put a guardrail on an
assessed value going down? So even though the market drops, your assessed
value doesn't drop as quickly. I think there has to be two sides of the sort on that
one.
And I can see the logic behind it, because as you're trying to balance the budget,
from a fiscal standpoint of a business, it makes sense to be able to do that.
Homeowners, residential, yeah, we have to be mindful of that, but there are
already metrics in there to help take care of that. Yeah, that explains that for me.
I see the logic in it, because it helps out our businesses going forward. Okay,
thanks, Chair. I yield.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Mr. Richards. Ms. Kimball.
MS. KIMBALL: Thank you, Chair. First of all, I appreciate that we have time on
this, and I think maybe the best thing to do is, if I can make a suggestion, is to
kind of put a pin in it until actually, we get the results from the appeals process,
and we can have that as part of the conversation.
The main thing that I'm concerned about, which I expressed in the previous
meeting, is this fairness factor that it's okay to have guardrails as long as the same
guardrails are applied to everyone. You know, when we're looking at the three
percent cap for homeowners, the homeowners, those are working families, folks
on a fixed income. They don't have as much flexibility to address the changing of
the tax rates as our businesses do, in the sense that—in that case, you know, our
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properties are they're more investments than they are the place where you
depend on for your shelter.
In the conversation we had earlier about the assessed values, you know, with the
commercial and resort, we don't see as much movement in that market. So
they're not always assessed based on market sales, and so some cases it may go
two, three, four, five years before they have a comparable market sale. And if
you put just a single -year cap, you're actually benefiting the folks that are in a not
very rapidly changing market and disadvantaging the folks that are. You know,
we've had some conversations about this.
I can see a path forward potentially, where the caps can roll up; you know, where
perhaps if there isn't a market assessment, then it's the 15 for one year but it's
also the 15 for each year basically, that it didn't roll up with a market assessment.
How we get there, mechanicallyI did have some conversation with Deputy
Director Hunt about how that might work, and didn't come to anyI was hoping
to have some sort of an amendment for you today to kick around that idea. But
the main thing for me is that this is applied fairly, and we're not—you know, and
the current circumstance where we suddenly had more turnover, it's you know,
one side of the island, potentially, is benefitting differently than the other side.
And I always think it's a little sticky when you're putting things in.
So if you're willing to maybe take some more time on this, I'll continue to have
conversations about mechanically what that might look like. Yeah, that's all, I
yield.
MS. SAKO: I think one of our bigger concerns also is that we want to make sure
it's something our staff can implement without having to double our staff size.
Thank you.
MS. KIMBALL: Fair point. Fair point because that all would be for not if we
have to pay for those additional salaries, understood. Okay, thank you, Chair.
yield.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Ms. Kimball. Okay.
Ms. Lee Loy, I have a question for you, if you would. You know, intentional
wise, intention of the bill is to do what? In your eyes? Thought pattern behind it?
MS. LEE LOY: Simply put, allow people a better opportunity to forecast what
their taxes would look like.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. Ms. Sako, I believe I asked for a
financial impact statement on this bill, correct me if I'm wrong.
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MS. SAKO: You did verbally ask, and I forgot to look up the law. I still think it
needs to be in writing by the first reading at Council.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay, I'll get that over to you. I think
what was interesting to me was the effective date of January 1, 2022. Not the
effective date of the bill itself, but the parcels that enter the class after the
beginning of this year, which means you have to backtrack. How does that affect
this summary? How would that affect the County fiscally?
MS. SAKO: Well, I mean, everything is going to impact the next year's budget,
right? I mean, we already have the value set for the current year, so it would
be the FY 2023 impact of all those parcels. So I mean that would be capped at
15 percent, except for improvements and whatnot, you know, to their businesses.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: And that part is interesting too, and thank
you for mentioning that. In addition to the 15 percent limit of this subsection,
"any improvements undertaken on the property within the tax year shall be
assessed at market value," so that breaks down how, for the layperson? How does
that—what is that saying?
MS. SAKO: So if you go out and you put an addition on your building, then staff
will determine the value of that addition and assess that at that cost while trying to
limit the 15 percent on the rest of the building, which is what I'm saying can get
very complicated and a very manual labor-intensive process
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: And that will be handled by the
Department of Finance or Real Property?
MS. SAKO: Well, Real Property Tax does fall under the Department of Finance,
yes, and so those would be our real property tax appraisers.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. So they would have to go out to
the you know, let's just it happens next year, they go out, they visit the house,
there's been an improvement on the home, they have to value that at the current
market value list, this one section that was built out or improved?
MS. SAKO: Right.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: And then the existing household would
have a cap of 15 percent?
MS. SAKO: Yes.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Interesting.
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MS. SAKO: Or commercial property. I mean, it's primarily commercial, yeah.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Yeah, so kind of talking about what
Ms. Lee Loy was saying, so that's only for an apartment, hotel and resort,
commercial, industrial, ag, or native forest and conservation?
MS. SAKO: Um -hum.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. And then there's the addition then
of the affordable rental housing assessment, which caps it at no more than three
percent per year. This is new, right? This is a new section, or is this an old
section?
MS. SAKO: No, that's been in there.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: That's been in there already?
MS. SAKO: Both homeowners and affordable rentals have been capped at three
percent.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay, they're broken apart in this bill,
though. Was there a reason for that?
MS. LEE LOY: Chair?
MS. SAKO: I think it was existing, right?
MS. LEE LOY: Yeah, Chair, if I might answer? I just reorganized the chapter;
because when you look at the original section, they had homeowners and
affordable rentals with the exemptions kind of scattered throughout that section.
So what I did is really streamlined it; looked at the 15 percent cap, and kept all of
the affordable rentals, and the homeowners and their exemptions all in one place.
So it looks like a lot, but really what this bill does is only address the 15 percent
with all the other categories, with the exception of residential.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. So homeowner assessment and
affordable rental household assessment, they haven't changed at all?
MS. SAKO: No changes.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay, good. Okay, that's all of my
questions for now. It's interesting. I like the idea. I like the idea behind it, and
that there's a cap for certain sectors. If the intention is to help the end-user, you
know, the renter of the apartment, the housing unit, the apartment, the hotel. I
rememberI mean, it could beI don't think that's going to be there for them,
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but it definitely does help out the folks who own these structures, whatever they
may be, or these parcels.
So, I'm mixed. I'm mixed on the bill itself. But thank you. Thanks for bringing
it forwards. Mr. Chung, go ahead.
MR. CHUNG: Yeah. Deanna—and, you know, I'm trying to find a way to
support this thing, you know, because the intent is good. I think we can all agree
with that. But act as the devil's advocate now, and just lay it on the line, what are
the pitfalls of something like this? Just so that we know, and maybe we can work
around it.
MS. SAKO: So I think one of our big concerns is that it will make the difference
between the total taxes paid in West Hawaii and East Hawaii even greater,
because the market tends to be more active in West Hawaii. So those will
continue to go up annually. And we have these market corrections in East
Hawaii, they'll be capped at 15 percent. So West Hawaii will actually grow at a
higher rate than East Hawaii.
MR. CHUNG: Try to explain that again. Because if we're capped, how does
that—?
MS. SAKO: Like this year, we finally had a very active commercial market, let's
say. Let's just talk about the commercial class. So they had a market correction.
If this bill was in effect this year, they would have all been capped at 15 percent.
But West Hawaii tends to have a little more active market and have more sales,
so they would have been incrementally increasing each year. They may have
never hit the 15 percent cap, but they're going to keep going up 14 percent. But
we're capping East Hawaii at 15 until they finally catch up.
MR. CHUNG: Well, they're capping everybody, yeah?
MS. SAKO: At everybody, but yes. But, you know, it's just the differences in
the market. So we already get concerns from taxpayers, that West Hawaii has
already a higher burden. And our concern is that would actually make it worse.
MR. CHUNG: Okay, I'm going to have to wrap my brain around that one. Any
other pitfalls that you can think of, from an administrator standpoint?
MS. SAKO: Lisa may have some more. I still am concerned about the amount of
work to analyze each parcel each year in terms of improvements, because whether
they're permitted or not, we still take that into account.
MR. CHUNG: Yeah.
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MS. SAKO: Sorry, had to just say that. So people, fair warning to everyone, we
still pick up value even though it's not permitted. So it's the amount of work that
would manually have to be done and split apart. And we could try and work, you
know, to have our system accommodate a lot of this, but I think there's still going
to be a lot of issues that get raised.
MR. CHUNG: How about flexibility or lack thereof regarding rate?
Establishment of rate, no problem there?
MS. SAKO: So we're still going to go with the assessed value, whether it's
capped or not capped, or whatever it is. So the Council will still have the
flexibility of the rates.
MR. CHUNG: Yeah, okay. So that's it? I mean, I just want to make sure we
understand what all the bad things are, yeah, of this.
MS. SAKO: Yeah. And we are kind of concerned that our current computer
system may not have enough fields to accommodate this programming.
MR. CHUNG: Okay. All right. Thank you.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Mr. Chung. Ms. Villegas.
MS. VILLEGAS: Yeah, extremely concerning that West Hawaii may end up
with the 15 percent year -over -year increase. So what is the likelihood of
something like that?
MS. SAKO: I think Lisa is still in Kona. But my understanding is lots of times in
various things, I'm not as familiar with in the commercial market, but there tend
to be more sales in West Hawaii, that's the general market over there. So they
don't tend to have these large market corrections like we're kind of are
experiencing this year in East Hawaii.
MS. VILLEGAS: Okay, thank you. Because I also appreciate Councilwoman
Lee Loy's efforts to stabilize things and provide some structured understanding
for potential big shifts; however, I am very concerned that this in the long run
would impose that broader burden, especially in District 7 where we do have this
really hot real estate market. I anticipate, as we talked about earlier, real estate
markets are going to correct, and we will probably end up with some kind of, I
don't want to call it "crash," but there will be a correction
MS. SAKO: Decline, yes.
MS. VILLEGAS: A decline, thank you, good word. But still, historically, we
have a lot more movement and momentum. And I am concerned that is going to,
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you know, 15 percent year -over -year, potential is—could be devasting. So thank
you. Appreciate it.
(Note: At this time, Real Property Administrator Lisa Miura came
forward to address the members of the Committee.)
MS. MIURA: Council, is it okay if I add to Ms. Villegas and Council Member
Chung's questions?
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Yes.
MS. MIURA: Okay, Lisa Miura, Administrator. So another issue, I think, on the
real property side isI just want to make it clear that apartments is just not the
apartment that you see as complexes. That it includes all of the condominiums,
whether on West Hawaii or East Hawaii, but it's island wide. So it's also all
multi -residential family. So putting the 15 percent cap on that, you have to
remember a lot of the condominiums are within hotel resort district, so they can
go in and out of short term vacation rental. So adding the 15 percent cap to that
would be very problematic because you're giving them something that residential
is not getting. And I'm not saying add residential in, I'm just trying to clarify that
having the apartment class, when people are saying, "Oh, I don't want to see short
term rental in there," that is majority of your apartment class. So, that's one
thing.
The second thing is, for the homeowner program, whether you live here and grew
up here or not, or you just moved here, the three percent cap can be very
confusing, but people can understand and appreciate it because it's going to the
homeowners. So when you buy a property, and we still get this today with calls
like Council gets, is that—you know, "My neighbor is assessed with only this,
and how come I'm so much more?" They get very confused when it comes to the
cap, and that's only as it applies to the homeowner. So if you're applying it
across almost every other class, that's just another thing, an added confusion. It's
not that we can't explain it, it's just that it will confuse people as to why they've
got to pay more than others.
I know it sounds really simple for us to just go through and override caps; so
everything that the homeowners basically you have a cap on it. If you do any
construction to the property, if you remodel, if we make the change, we have to
manually override that class. That is not something a computer change can do for
us.
When you talk about putting caps on agriculture and native forest, that's
problematic because some people's land area changes on what they have. They
will take property out of the agriculture, maybe a quarter acre to build a house,
and how are you going to address the cap on that? It actually has a lot more
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questions that we would need to have answered to clarify how we're going to go
forward with it, to maintain what the intent of the bill is.
There is a change required to the system. We did call to get a price quote for that
because we have the tier tax rates. We don't have tier tax rates in the homeowner
category, so if you want to continue to look at tier tax rates, you are going to have
an issue with the cap in addition to that. So just be aware that it will limit and
change things, for approximately $200,000. They can look at it. They cannot get
it done within six months, so it needs to have lead-time if you're going to change
anything there.
And with the date of January 1, 2022, I just wanted to clarify that if this bill goes
forward in another reading, we need clarification. This wouldn't start till the
2023 fiscal year. Even though we understand the talking, it would just be great
for us to have it really solidified in whatever goes forward. Thank you.
MS. SAKO: Lisa, I think you meant the tax year 2023, right?
MS. MIURA: Absolutely, yes.
MS. SAKO: Okay, thanks.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Ms. Miura. Okay, Ms. David,
have you gone yet?
MS. DAVID: No.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Ms. David, go ahead.
MS. DAVID: Just really quickly. I appreciate everyone's comments, and I think
I share some—most of the concerns expressed already. And Lisa, I thank you for
your explanation on what it will take on the ground to actually implement a bill
such as this. So, great discussion. I think we have more questions than we have
answers at this point in time, so I would just defer to Ms. Lee Loy as far as what
we need to the next step right now. Thank you.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Ms. David. Ms. Kierkiewicz,
go ahead.
MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Thanks, Chair, just really quickly. And thank you,
Ms. Lee Loy, I wasn't here when you first kind of introduced this measure. I just
really appreciate you being responsive to the hundreds of emails and calls that
each of our offices received. You know, I think as households, as small
businesses, everybody is just struggling to make it here, right? The cost of living
and doing business is so high, and so just to be able to have stable costs so that
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you can budget and prepare accordingly, I think that's what you're trying to
achieve here. So, thank you. I appreciate the intention.
I wasn't here for the initial conversation. Just want to confirm that we would be
the first County to be setting up these, sort of guardrails, within our RPT (Real
Property Tax) structure. Is that correct, Deanna? Lisa?
MS. SAKO: I'll let Lisa answer that. I think so.
MS. MIURA: Yes, in Hawaii, for sure we would be the first ones to set up this
type of structure. Other than the homeowners, Kauai also has the three percent
cap on homeowners.
MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Okay, so Hawaii County, Kauai County, the three
percent cap on homeowners. Deanna, do you recall 2009 that big real estate
boom? I'm sure there was a shock with some of the assessments. Was similar
legislation kind of put forth at that point and time? What was the conversation at
the Council, if you can recall?
MS. SAKO: I do not, actually, remember legislation like this moving forward. It
could be that it did, and it just didn't pass. But the tax rates were amended, but
only in two categories.
MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Okay, thank you. Just hoping to get a little bit more
information, because I think folks are liking the idea but really struggling with
this. Is there a way for you to kind of prepare for us some data that shows over
time the appeals and the percentage increases and assessments so that we know,
okay these certain years they've been an anomaly but, you know, it sort of peters
out and steadies itself?
MS. SAKO: In totality, yes, we have information by classification and the
number of appeals.
MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Okay, that would be extremely helpful if we could get that.
You know, we're getting texts. I'm getting texts from State Legislators that are
watching right now. And I just want to be really cognizant of the fact that we
have very few levers that we can pull as counties in terms of our tax base, and this
is our bread and butter. So I just really, really want to be careful about how we
proceed because we can't make these decisions in a vacuum and restrict
ourselves, and then go back to the legislature next year and ask for money for
problems that we really need to be taking care of ourselves.
So just want to make sure that we're taking all of this information into
consideration and making the best, most responsible decision, not just for our
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constituents but for County government. Thanks, Deanna. Thank you, Chair, I
yield.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Ms. Kierkiewicz. Ms. Lee
Loy.
MS. LEE LOY: Thank you. This is what I really needed, this kind of feedback.
Deanna, I wanted to walk back to something Aaron was bringing up about the
pitfalls. You know, he mentioned all of those things. How does that also impact
our bond rating, because that actually was at the heart of "how do I do this," but
how do I make sure we don't handcuff ourselves?
MS. SAKO: I'm pretty confident our bond rating will drop.
MS. LEE LOY: Okay. And then regarding the—and maybe Lisasorry, this
might be more for Lisa. Council Member Inaba asked about the different
percentages throughout the various rates. Is that something we could extrapolate
from last year's certified values, comparing them over time to this year's? Is that
just like a quick and dirty way to get those percentages?
MS. SAKO: I'm sorry, the rates are—what?
MS. MIURA: Oh, no. Go ahead, Deanna.
MS. SAKO: I just didn't understand the question, I'm sorry.
MS. MIURA: Yeah, I didn't hear Holeka because that's when the mics cut out
for us. So if you could just confirm tome, then I can tell you our procedure.
MS. LEE LOY: Yeah, sure, sure. The question he had, or the challenge he had
was to better understand how much each category went up by percentages,
because this 15 percent cap is kind of a number I came up based on some
assumptions I made, but I wanted to—is there a way to get that number based on
last year's certified values compared to this year's certified value.
MS. SAKO: So I think what we're trying to say—like we can tell you like what
the percentage increases were, but we can't guarantee you the cap would have
kicked in, because if they were a homeowner—not homeowner, but any kind of
improvements by the landowner, then those would have to be broken out. So
there will be assumptions in there because we can't just extract out how much of
that was improvements to the property. Is that right, Lisa?
MS. MIURA: Correct. So right now, we don't keep track of it in that form on
anything that's not capped. But if you're looking at the overall percentages, yeah
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absolutely, we can get you what the total certified value was per category or tax
class, compared to this year. But I wasn't sure which number you're looking for.
MS. LEE LOY: I'm sorry, Lisa, the comparison from last year to this year, just
like the cover -page on our certified values.
MS. MIURA: Yeah, so basically what totals up to that 18 percent, right?
MS. LEE LOY: Correct.
MS. MIURA: By tax class. Yes, we can.
MS. LEE LOY: You know, I've heard my other colleagues, and even you,
Deanna and Lisa, kind of struggling with that rolling in to these caps. I think I'm
trying to craft the right language to be very clear, that we actually do realize the
assessed value at its highest potential, but just giving it to them in more palatable
bites is what I'm saying. How does that language look?
MS. SAKO: I don't know what the—go ahead, Lisa.
MS. MIURA: I would say that's a million -dollar question. I don't know at this
second. Deanna?
MS. SAKO: I think, you know what's really challenging for us, is because Lisa
and her team has to appraise based on appraisal standards. So as she mentioned,
and mass appraisal, you know, some markets there's not a lot of sales. So when
we do have a lot of sales, it tends to correct. And so, is it fair? You know, it may
not be fair right now, you know, depending on where you live on the island, and
which communities have more sales. In this particular year, yes, every district
had sales, every category had sales. You know, this was unbelievable. We all
know the market is just very busy right now, but that's not going to be the case
always. And I think it's the unintended consequences that are going to hurt. And
I really do feel the divide between east and west is going to get greater.
I'm not sure that I still feel that controlling the rates is the best way to do it, and
it's the best way for our bond rating. It's the best way to make sure we're fair on
both sides of the island. You know, I think ultimately, that's going to be the fair
way to go for everybody.
MS. LEE LOY: Thanks, Deanna. You know, the one other thing I wanted to get
you and Lisa to give feedback on was, you know, this idea of a ceiling and a floor,
right? When we hit that scary "r" word in the real estate market that nobody
really wants to talk about, but when your values do go down and your taxes do go
down just because the assessed value went down, you're not complaining. And
just how valuable is that cap or a floor?
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May 17, 2022
MS. SAKO: So same thing, by controlling the rates, we can accommodate that.
So if there is a huge drop in the real estate market, then same way, like taking
looking at the rates, that would be the way to ensure because we are always
going to have those fixed costs, whether the real estate market is up or down.
MS. LEE LOY: Thanks, Deanna. I, too, am getting feedback from our friends at
the legislature, because we do—we go for a lot of "please help us; we'll braid in
some of our money," and so I'm very cognizant of that. And I'm also very
cognizant of a few other areas where we can secure funds, you know, with some
of the funding that's coming down for our federal programs, which is why I'm
willing to take a longer look at this.
And Lisa, to help you, it really is for the 2022 values, which would impact us in
our 2023 budget. However, all of that is on the table, and we can talk about
fine-tuning this a little bit more. With that, I'm going to ask for a postponement
of Bill 156. And hopefully in the next couple monthsI know, Deanna and Lisa,
you guys will be really busy with the appeals, but I'd like to circle back around
with this. You guys tell me, September? August or September?
MS. SAKO: I'm guessing sooner is better than later, only because it would take
time. But I don't know, up to Lisa.
MS. MIURA: My concern with August is that's our next bill collection, so we
are really busy in August because that's the first collection for the tax year, and
it's a busy one. So if it's after August 20, that would be preferred.
MS. LEE LOY: Lisa, there is either September 6 or September 20, and I'd rather
pick the 6h because I heard you guys talk about appeals happening in October.
MS. MIURA: Yeah, I think September 6 would work. I may not have Keita (Jo).
He'll probably be in appeal, but I can be here.
MS. LEE LOY: Great. Before I make that motion, I had just one more question
on this appraisal, mass appraisal process, right, that's how we come up—is there
another process that we have other than the mass appraisal process?
MS. SAKO: Individually valuing every single property on the island annually.
MS. LEE LOY: Maybe we should come up with some other formulas.
MS. SAKO: The number I give you to do that will really blow your mind.
MS. LEE LOY: Okay. Thanks, Deanna. Thanks, Lisa. I really do appreciate
this conversation. I was going to make that motion, but unless you have
something to say, Chair? Okay.
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CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Ms. Lee Loy. Yeah, I have
one question. The cap would be at 15 percent. My question was, and it may have
been touched on already, I know we have the 18 percent on real property tax
valuation, but for these categories in Section 3 of the proposed bill, what was the
increase this year, you know, that caused everyone this great fear of how much
their valuations had gone up, the assessments had gone up? What was that
increase this year that we're looking at? So, just to give us an idea. Look, we're
saying we'll cap it at 15, this year it went up by what percentage?
MS. KIMBALL: Chair, can I make a comment about the statistics on this?
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Yes.
MS. KIMBALL: Okay, thank
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Actually no, I'd like to hear from the
director first, sorry. Thank you.
MS. SAKO: I don't have it with me right here, Lisa. Sorry.
MS. MIURA: Oh, no.
MS. SAKO: Yeah. I think, you know—anyway, I'll let Lisa answer.
MS. MIURA: It was a total of 28.7 percent, but I cannot tell you how much of
that is new construction.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: You're speaking specifically to apartment,
hotel resort, commercial, industrial, agriculture, native forest conservation, or are
you talking about in general?
MS. MIURA: No, just commercial.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: So just commercial, 28 percent increase
this year?
MS. MIURA: Correct.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: And so this bill would potentially limit that
increase by 13 percent?
MS. MIURA: Yeah, decreasing at 13 to hit the 15.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Yes.
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May 17, 2022
MS. MIURA: Correct. Except for the ones where there is new construction.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay, was any other class at that level?
MS. MIURA: Yes, hotels and resorts. But this is one that we might want to
prepare what you or Ashley, excuse me, are asking for, so that we can provide all
the numbers based on the certified last year versus certified this year. Because I'd
really like to take a moment to make sure the numbers are correct.
MS. SAKO: So there are situations, you know, where Lisa was commenting,
about the 20 percent decrease in hotels last year because of COVID. So would
the 15 percent cap then still apply the following year when we just put them back
to normal? They would still be below what the previous year was, for example,
and we've had similar corrections during lava, for example.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay.
MS. SAKO: So you know, somehow factoring that in would also be important to
the legislation.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Understood. Yeah, thank you for that
information. It helps me understand what folks have gone through and what
they're seeing on their individual bills. I have a home, so I saw mine, but I don't
have commercial or resort property. So it's interesting to see that increase, what it
actually was, and then what this bill would do to both us and for the owners of
those parcels. I think it really would help guide decision-making, too. Maybe
15 percent is too little, too much, I mean it just kind of depends on what we see
across the board, in my eyes. Yeah, that was my question.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity. Okay, thank you very much for being
here today. Oh, Ms. Kimball, go ahead.
MS. KIMBALL: Yeah, I just want to make a quick comment about looking at the
averages in this particular dataset, or these datasets. It is, what we call in
statistics, not a normal distribution. And it's not an uncontrolled dataset. There
are other variables such as developments in properties, and mapping changes that
make it so that you can't really directly correlate one thing with the other because
there are influences. So you want to look at other things besides just the average,
such as the median. That's why we look at like median home sales. And you also
want to exclude outliers.
You know, I looked at the commercial dataset, there were some that had a change
of 145 percent, but they had a huge mapping change. Like there was a significant
event that caused that. So you want to be really careful looking at these averages,
as far as being meaningful.
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If we go forward, and we have until September, what I'd actually suggest, and
maybe I can work with Keita on this, is we pull out an actual, fairly controlled
random subset of each property class, and then we can look at the central
tendencies there. So pulling out things that haven't had development, haven't had
a mapping change, haven't had these other things that might affect the value, so
we're really just looking at the market. It's still going to be not ideal in terms of
statistics, but it's going to be better than trying to analyze the central tendencies of
the datasets we have.
MS. SAKO: However, the reality of the matter is properties do change. There
are mapping changes, there are major changes, and the bill is going to have to
accommodate how our team treats each and every one of those changes.
MS. KIMBALL: Anyway, thank you. Chair, I yield.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Ms. Kimball. Okay, so
Ms. Lee Loy, if you would like to make the motion?
Vote on Motion Ms. Lee Loy moved to postpone Bill 156 to
to Postpone: September 6, 2022. Seconded by Ms. David and
(Approved) carried by the following voice vote:
Ayes: Committee Members Chung, David, Inaba,
Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Lee Loy, Richards,
Villegas, and Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder – 9
Noes: None.
Absent: None.
Excused: None.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: I would like to, given our timeframe this
morning—and thank you for being patient, Ms. Kunz—go and proceed to
Bill 160. But there was a request by our Corporation Counsel to have a
discussion in Executive Session this morning before hearing the bill that's being
proposed. So Ms. Strance, does that still hold true? Do you still wish to do an
Executive Session this morning?
(Note: At this time, Corporation Counsel Elizabeth Strance came forward
to address the members of the Committee.
MS. STRANCE: Good morning. Elizabeth Strance, Corporation Counsel.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Good morning.
MS. STRANCE: I would like to have an Executive Session, but I think you're
going to lose Deanna and Susan, so I think given everything, they're probably
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more important to hear from first, and then we could do Executive Session at the
end.
CHR KANEALII-KLEINFELDER: Okay.
MS. STRANCE: So you get the benefit of their testimony.
CHR KANEALII-KLEINFELDER: Okay, does that still hold the same effect
for you in your eyes?
(Note: At this time, Housing and Community Development Administrator
Susan Kunz came forward to address the members of the Committee.)
MS. KUNZ: Yeah, I would still like one, but I think the timing of it, there are
other considerations.
CHR KANEALII-KLEINFELDER: Okay, understood. Thank you. Okay, with
that, Mr. Clerk, let's go to Bill 160, please.
Change Order As directed by the Chair and with no objection from the Council Members,
of Business: the following item was taken out of order:
Bill 160: AMENDS CHAPTER 11 OF THE HAWAII COUNTY CODE 1983
(2016 EDITION, AS AMENDED), BY ADDING A NEW ARTICLE
RELATING TO AFFORDABLE HOUSING PRODUCTION FUNDING
Establishes an annual appropriation of at least $5 million per to year to the
Office of Housing and Community Development to facilitate programs that
support affordable housing production.
Reference: Comm. 750
Intr. by: Ms. Kierkiewicz
Postponed: May 3, 2022
(Note: There is a motion by Ms. Lee Loy, seconded by Mr. Richards, to
recommend passage of Bill 160.)
CHR KANEALII-KLEINFELDER: Mahalo, Mr. Clerk. So the motion is on
the floor, correct? Okay, let's go to Ms. Kierkiewicz.
MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you, Chair, for taking this out of order; and mahalo
nui, Director Sako and Administrator Kunz, for your patience. Sorry, I wasn't
here when this was initially introduced. I had COVID. So thank you, Sue and
Tim, for making sure that it was postponed to this meeting.
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May 17, 2022
I'm not going to belabor the issue. You know, housing has been an issue for us
for decades. Patrick Hurney, from Habitat for Humanity, said we need to do
everything before we get into a real place of trouble. I think we've been there for
quite some time. We are struggling to get by. I remember a decade ago being a
college student, looking for an affordable place to live. Luckily, I was able to find
something; a room to rent, $300 bucks a month. I was living in those little houses
right next to Waiakea High School, so I could just walk to school.
I remember being on the hunt for my first home, and that was over a decade ago
these issues, and I can't even—like I just shudder to think what local families,
what college students, what veterans, what kupunas, what ALICE (Asset Limited,
Income Constrained, Employed) families are doing right now. Because the
market is exploding and it's just so difficult to make it here. We all know housing
is key to stability, personally for `ohana, and it really is the basis for creating a
thriving community.
And in this time of abundance, right, we have a budget before us nearing almost
$800 million. I just cannot even believe we were in a place of like just struggling
to get by a few years ago, and now we really have a lot of resources available.
It's time to really invest and make a real impact in housing production. And so
this bill before you, Bill 160, was developed in partnership with Office of
Housing as well as the Finance Department. And I really want to mahalo not just
Susan and Deanna but Susan, members of your team: Royce Shiroma, Alisa
Hanselman, that really worked to help think through how we might administer
this kind of program so that it has an impact.
We've talked for years and years about making housing an annual project priority;
this codifies it. Really appreciate the administration hearing my call, but also the
call of my colleagues, right? We want to make sure there's money for Housing,
and it's reflected in this year's budget, but we don't know if can count on that
allocation on an annual basis. So having something in the Code, similar to how
we have our nonprofit grant-in-aid program, where every year Deanna knows
right off of the top, we've got put $2.5 million in nonprofit grant-in-aid. This will
ensure that we're at least putting $5 million into supporting housing production.
This sets the floor. But if times are good, like right now, we can definitely see an
increase. This bill provides that framework.
And it's really intended to ensure that we have Housing at different price points,
right: the ALICE families, the kupunas that are looking to downsize, first-time
homeowners, individuals that are coming out of incarceration looking to
reintegrate into society, folks transitioning out of homelessness, college students,
workforce. There is just a spectrum of needs at different price points, and we just
want to make sure that every single person, every resident here has access to safe,
affordable, quality housing.
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And thankfully we have a really dynamic leader leading our office that is ready to
call the shots, that has a plan, that isn't just sitting on the sidelines, but you're
calling the play, so really appreciate your leadership there, Susan. And I just
wanted to call you and Deanna forward to just kind of talk through this particular
bill, how it could be administered.
I want to highlight in everyone's pinky folder Communication 750.1. This was
something that Susan's team and our office put together in terms of how this
funding could be administered. In the event though, let's say not all funding is
expended on an annual basis, what this bill does, is it ensures any leftover money
goes right back in. It goes right back in, so it's completely dedicated to Housing
on an annual basis.
So I'll yield from here and just turn it over to Administrator Kunz, Director Sako,
to provide a little bit more texture for this conversation. Thank you, ladies.
(Note: At this time, Finance Director Deanna Sako and Housing and
Community Development Administrator Susan Kunz came forward to
address the members of the Committee.)
MS. KUNZ: Good morning, this is Susan Kunz, the Administrator for the Office
of Housing and Community Development. Thank you so much for this
opportunity to provide some comments.
Council Member Kierkiewicz, you said it perfectly. I don't know how much
more I can add to that, but I can say that we have worked very closely over the
last few months on this particular bill. It is amending Chapter 11, by adding a
new article to the Code. You all know that I am currently working with a
consultant to take a look at Article 1, Chapter 11, which is our inclusionary
zoning policy. This does not in any way complicate or interfere with any of that
particular work. It's merely outlining a program for housing production and how
we would secure funding for that. It is one of the roadmap items that we've
identified for our work going forward. It is trying to develop such a fund and
looking for all kinds of sources of this funding, so this is one of those sources.
My staff has spent a lot of time working out what the program might look like and
how we would manage these pots of money; how we would—make sure that the
public has an opportunity to have input and to apply for the funding. So, what
you do have, as a communication, is an outline of that. You know, I don't want to
read through all of this, but I want to make sure to point out that there's a very
secure process in place; that we've had a lot of experience running a lot of our
other grant programs, so we are modeling this program after what we've been
very successful in doing. And part of the program administration piece that I will
come to the Council to present what this plan will look like after we've made a
selection of projects, and then come back and report what our expenditures are
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looking like so that you will always be updated on how we're progressing. So
with that, I'll answer any questions if you have any.
MS. SAKO: You know, we did talk about a special fund versus to having a
designated fund balance, and many of our special funds end up having to get
consolidated back into the General Fund when we prepare the Annual Financial
Comprehensive report, the Audit and Financial Statements you saw earlier today.
So we kind of felt this was an easier way and gives the Housing Administrator
more flexibility on how to spend the money as well as to rollback any leftovers
into the following year.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you very much. Ms. Kierkiewicz,
anything to follow up?
MS. KIERKIEWICZ: I was just going to say thank you, ladies. Happy to answer
any questions you folks might have. I yield, Chair. Thank you.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you. Okay, Council Members?
Mr. Chung, go ahead.
MR. CHUNG: So maybe I didn't hear it specifically, but is the department—is
your office supporting this bill?
MS. KUNZ: Yes, we are supporting this bill.
MR. CHUNG: Are you guys requesting it to be supported? I mean, I'm just,
you know, without going into the kind of opinions that we're having from
Corp. Counsel
MS. KUNZ: Right.
MR. CHUNG: I just kind of
MS. KUNZ: Yes. I mean for several reasons, right? Knowing what the state of
our housing inventory looks like, number one, being that this definitely supports
one of the roadmap items that I've already presented to this group. Yes, for
several reasons I am supporting this bill.
MR. CHUNG: Okay. And if it got to the point, would you even say you are
requesting it?
MS. KUNZ: I would say yes.
MR. CHUNG: Okay.
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MS. KUNZ: We've working so closely on developing this. Yes.
MR. CHUNG: All right. Thank you.
MS. SAKO: I think it's fair to say that housing is definitely a priority of both the
Council and the administration.
MR. CHUNG: Right. You guys can go on record and saying you're requesting
this?
MS. KUNZ: Yes.
MR. CHUNG: Yeah. All right. Thank you.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Mr. Chung. Okay, anyone
else? Ms. Kimball.
MS. KIMBALL: Thank you. And thank you, Susan, and Deanna, and Ashley for
putting all of this together. You know, I think I'm actually happy to be in the
position we are, which is not fighting about whether or not we should spend
money on affordable housing, but what mechanism is the appropriate one to do
this. Looking at the grants and what they could potentially be provided for, most
of them actually there's a lot intersection between 152 and this list, with the
exceptions of the subsidies for either upfront cost for rental units, mortgage,
upfront cost for getting into a home. Is that something you're willing to consider
adding to this list as one of the possible? I mean, it's not a grant because it's
not going to nonprofits. Or is there another way to fill that's one gap identified,
right?
MS. KUNZ: Yeah.
MS. KIMBALL: Is getting people into housing because they have a hard time
getting over that hurdle of the upfront cost or the deposit?
MS. KUNZ: Right. So are you talking about like subsidy programs, like the
Section 8 program that we run?
MS. KIMBALL: No, no, no, more based on
MS. KUNZ: More like down -payment programs for the
MS. KIMBALL: Right.
MS. KUNZ: For the home—for applicants that
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MS. KIMBALL: Yeah.
MS. KUNZ: You know, in guess in working on this, we were very focused on
housing production and the development and building of homes, but that is the
other piece to the puzzle. So I would say that anything is on the table that we
could have a discussion. You know, this hasn't been finalized yet. It is in draft
form. You know, I would take input from the staff and from Council Member
Kierkiewicz who we've been working with on, and for many of you actually.
MS. KIMBALL: Yeah, I'm happy to hear Council Member Kierkiewicz's
thoughts on that. But before you do, let me the other one that's not in here was
the deed restriction concept, which was to
MS. KUNZ: Council Member Kimball, can I say one other thing?
MS. KIMBALL: Yeah.
MS. KUNZ: And I think one of the things that I would want to consider is we
have several grant programs that are running through, and that will be coming
down the pipe in the next fiscal year. I think we need to take a look at those
opportunities for those pots of money, maybe to focus on those types of programs.
I'd hate to have too much overlap.
MS. KIMBALL: Yeah.
MS. KUNZ: But we would certainly consider those things as we're talking
through this.
MS. KIMBALL: Okay, yeah. If I may, Chair, I'll yield to Council Member
Kierkiewicz to respond to that question, and then I have a couple more.
MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Go ahead.
MS. KIERKIEWICZ: This is just to start the conversation. When we think
about, you know, deed restrictions, the subsidies program, I don't know if this
particular program can solve all the needs related to housing. I do want to take
everything into consideration and evaluate what other programs and funding pots
Housing has access to, so to solve for those challenges. I am intrigued by the
subsidies program, but as Susan was saying, we were very focused on how we
increase the inventory.
But you do highlight something that is very important, is you can have the
housing out there, but the issue is folks don't have the money in the bank to put
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down that down -payment to have access to housing, so that is something that
we're highlighting and we need to figure out. Maybe this is an opportunity for
Council Member Chung's Bill 111, which talked about supporting homelessness
and housing, to ensure that folks aren't falling into a place of experiencing
homelessness. Could we use some of that money to create the subsidies program?
So let's put it all in the table and figure out what pots of monies we have to solve
for those challenges. Thank you, Chair.
MS. KIMBALL: Yeah, thank you.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Ms. Kierkiewicz. Yield or no?
MS. KIMBALL: Nope, I have a couple more questions.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay, Ms. Kimball.
MS. KIMBALL: And that's really just about—and this is, you know, I feel like
I've been here time goes by so fast. I feel like I've been here forever, and yet
there are things that come before me that I've never seen before, and this is one of
them.
The bill, the component that's actually going into the Code is quite small and
simple, and then you have this attachment which gives a little bit more detail,
which I like a lot. I mean, this is really clear. It provides the guidelines and all of
that stuff. Is there a way to actually get more of this in the Code so that it is?
What was the impetus for taking this approach, just because I'm concerned
about—? Susan, we hope you're here forever, but somebody else might come at
some point who we would trust a little less. You know, we want to have a little
bit more oversight and authority to deal with the usages. So can you just kind of
maybe clarify why we're taking this approach, and maybe—is it possible to
maybe codify a little bit more of this? Thank you.
MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Yeah, Chair, if I might?
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Go ahead, Ms. Kierkiewicz.
MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you. That is absolutely the intention. You know,
first we wanted to make sure that there were agreements by this body to make the
annual investment in housing production. Then wanting to make sure that as we
brought that forward that it wasn't just a concept, that we just weren't dealing
with theories, that we had an actual idea of how we would administer those funds
on annual basis, so that you felt confident in giving this money to Housing to
administer.
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Again, this is in draft form because we wanted to see what we might be missing.
How might we make adjustments, so that from here we are able to pull together a
separate piece of legislation that really then begins to codify how the program
would be administered and for what purpose. Susan, I don't know if you want to
add anything more to that.
MS. KUNZ: No, I very much agree with you. We could definitely work on
incorporating more of this language, if you would like. You know, I guess I'll
take this time to point out that, you know, I've worked very closely with my
counterparts on the other islands. You know, Maui has actually put together a
bill. Their particular bill has very detailed information like this within their Code.
I mean, we could look at doing something similar to that, or a separate resolution,
whatever this body thinks, and Ashley, I'll look for your guidance on that. And
I'll definitely work with you to develop the language.
MS. KIMBALL: Again, I appreciate you know, I think it's wonderful that we
are, as a body, putting out more things for discussion, you know, we're working
on them a little bit more, and the public forum. I think I would want to see, like I
said more of this, like actually intended to go into the Code.
A couple other concerns, not concerns but ideas, would be how we could
introduce some residency requirements associated with these fundings. You
know, we've had some conversations about that.
MS. KUNZ: Yeah.
MS. KIMBALL: We had some stuff with Corporation Counsel, but Hawaii oh,
sorry, Maui CountyKauai County already has residency requirements on
County -funded products. Maui has recently passed a preference for the term of
residency. There are other jurisdictions that have passed residency requirements,
and they have—we stood the test legally in terms of the Fair Housing Act. You
know, that's the conversation we've had multiple times, is if we're building
affordable housing and it's open to everyone, is that really helping our local
residents? So that's kind of another thing I'd like to maybe consider putting
forward with this. And I'll yield after Council Member Kierkiewicz's response.
Thank you.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Yeah, try to keep it to one Council
Member per shot. Go ahead, answer the question and then we'll go to the next
one.
MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you, Chair.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you.
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May 17, 2022
MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Absolutely. And I'm glad you raised that because I
remember having conversations with Housing folks that are administering the
Section 8 Housing Program, and just shocked to hear at how many non-residents
are actually taking their vouchers from the mainland and using them here. So we
want to make sure that every investment that we are making in Housing does go
to supporting Hawaii Island residents. Thank you, Chair.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Mahalo, Ms. Kierkiewicz. Okay,
Ms. Lee Loy, go ahead.
MS. LEE LOY: Thank you. Completely supporting this. Just kind of adding
more to that conversation, as far as refining what we may codify. You know, I
get it, this is the crack in the door. We're going to put the money here, but how
we spend it, how we use it—and then Ms. Kimball also brought up Bill 111,
which is why I think—one thing I advanced during that piece of legislation was
the reporting requirements.
But I also wanted to hear from Susan. Ms. Kierkiewicz couched this perfectly.
We have our nonprofit grant-in-aid, there's $2.5 million, and we grant it out. I
wanted to understand, or maybe put in your ear now, is if there is a granting
mechanism, that you take a look at that nonprofit grant-in-aid. Because if this
money is available for them through this fund, I would rather point them to your
option rather than the $2.5 (million). And maybe even indicate to those providing
housing solutions—Habitat for Humanity, I mean, you can go down the list and
make—direct them there. That's what I'd really would like to see. So that when
we're focused, they're using that focused mission rather than coming to the
$2.5 (million) and the nonprofit grant-in-aid. Is that something we can try
elevating?
MS. KUNZ: Yes, definitely. For that very reason, my staff and I have been
talking about—you know, annually we go out to publicize CDBG (Community
Development Block Grant), and HOME (HOME Investment Partnerships
Program), and Housing Trust Fund, when we have those pots of money. We do
public hearings, and we do applications process all at the same time for that
reason. So we are going to be synchronizing the homeless pot of money, and if
this one comes through, this one as well.
I think it's really important that the staff knows what types of projects are coming
in. And even for those who are trying to apply for funds, right, knowing what's
all at the table so that they're deciding which pots they're applying for and which
one best applies to them, and how we can best use the funds that way. And then
my staff can see what projects, what's eligible, and things like that.
So I don't know that we could run our process at the same time; I don't see why
we couldn't. But I would definitely like to provide you with what our calendar
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looks like, so you're aware of when our monies are moving through. Would that
help?
MS. LEE LOY: That would actually be the most beneficial.
MS. KUNZ: Okay.
MS. LEE LOY: Because ours is codified.
MS. KUNZ: Yeah.
MS. LEE LOY: Our program is codified, and so we don't have the flexibility of
when they can come apply, you know, mid -year, because it's in our budget, which
is where this is leading to. And so I just want to work smarter not harder. But
yeah, I'll be supporting this at this time.
MS. KUNZ: Thank you.
MS. LEE LOY: Thank you, Chair. I yield.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Mahalo, Ms. Lee Loy. Ms. David.
MS. DAVID: Thank you, Chair. And thank you, Ms. Kierkiewicz, and ladies for
being here. And Deanna, I just wanted to confirm that the Finance Department is
totally supportive of this?
MS. SAKO: Yes, we are.
MS. DAVID: Okay, great. And I really agree that, at first glance at the bill, it
really needed more meat to it, as far as what the guidelines would be and stuff.
So I'm really glad that we're discussing that out in the open because there are a
lot of good suggestions that's been going on. So if those specific requirements
are going to be worked on, this is something that is really long overdue. And I'm
just really happy that for once we're going to have something that is not only
talked about, but we can see something on the ground like everybody wants to,
addressing our housing issue.
So I just wanted to say thank you guys for doing this. And yeah,
Ms. Kierkiewicz, thank you for bringing this forward. Look forward to the
amended version. Thank you very much.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Mahalo, Ms. David. Ms. Villegas, go
ahead.
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MS. VILLEGAS: Sure, just for the framework of clarification. First off, thank
you, Ms. Kierkiewicz, for bringing this forward. I think this essentially puts our
money where our mouth is. This isI mean the number of conversations also
related to tax assessment values and increase in property taxes, lack of housing,
loss of workforce, I mean, this all culminates in the need for a place for our
workforce to live. And as I'd like to always remind myself, the difference
between low-income and affordable housing.
I know we're going into Executive Session later to speak on another bill, but just
once again I'm going to layman's terms, this piece of legislation codifies $5
million a year going to build affordable housing. The other piece of legislation,
they're kind of working within the same chapter, but the other piece of legislation
makes changes to where the monies, even this $5 million, could be spent and
brought into those perimeters. I'm trying to delineate the similarities and the
difference and how they might complement each other per se in the intentionality.
MS. KUNZ: So talking about Bill 160 and the amount of money that—so the bill
does say that at a minimum, there would be $5 million going towards housing
production. I do want to point out that we're estimating for this first round; it's
looking more like $9 million. So it really depends on what that Fund Balance
looks like. The opportunity for a minimum of $1 million, or possibly more, is
greater here, is my understanding. I think you're alluding to Bill 152?
MS. VILLEGAS: Um -hum.
MS. KUNZ: Okay. So 152 is amending our Revolving Fund, the language of the
use of the Revolving Fund. By itself, I don't believe that 152 generates any
funds.
MS. VILLEGAS: No, exactly.
MS. KUNZ: Right. So it's just merely taking the language that the money can be
used for the development of housing.
MS. VILLEGAS: Yes.
MS. KUNZ: And it's outlining, I don't know, I think about nine bullets of
eligible uses.
MS. VILLEGAS: It adds—
MS. KUNZ: Yes, similar to what we're doing here.
MS. VILLEGAS: It adds for eligible uses, yes.
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MS. KUNZ: So that, in my mind, is there's a huge difference between the two.
So the Revolving Fund exists.
MS. VILLEGAS: Yes.
MS. KUNZ: I have funding in there. I think it's close to $900,000, that is the
balance right now. It's just delineating further the use of the fund.
MS. VILLEGAS: Right. But that's different than where this $5 million will go?
MS. KUNZ: Yes.
MS. VILLEGAS: That's Revolving. Thank you for helping—okay.
MS. KUNZ: Yes, this isright, this is not going into the Revolving. This is
staying in my Housing Fund.
MS. VILLEGAS: Staying in your Housing Funding to build homes?
MS. KUNZ: Yes.
MS. VILLEGAS: This isn't for homeless programs, or outreach, or that kind of
stuff?
MS. SAKO: Right. So the homeless money, from Mr. Chung's bill, is in the
General Fund, in a very separate section, entitled "Homelessness."
MS. VILLEGAS: Okay. Thank you for helping clarify these little pockets of
money and the places that they are intended to go.
MS. KUNZ: You're welcome.
MS. VILLEGAS: I'm also excited to hear the administration's support on this. I
just—you know, I've heard from a couple of different people that some of the
affordable housing units being built in Waikoloa, there is a concern based on the
size of them, and the rates for rating there are still $2,000 a month, which you
have to make a lot of money in order toI mean, a gross annual income take-
home, I remember when I was single mom, I needed to take home $2,000 a month
to make it, and I had a $500 a month rent, and that was $40,000 a year. So I do
have some concerns on what we're really calling "affordable," because that's still
a lot of money. So another time, another topic, But, some progress.
Thank you for bringing this forward, Ms. Kierkiewicz. And thank you for your
support from the administration, and from you, Ms. Kunz. Appreciate it.
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CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Ms. Villegas.
MS. SAKO: I really apologize, but Administrator Kunz and I are supposed to be
someplace else, for a speaking engagement. And they just started, Susan, so I
hope you can drive fast. So can you please excuse us? And we would be happy
to answer any more questions at first reading or between meetings. You guys
have both of our numbers. I really apologize. Thank you.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Yeah, fair enough. I'm sure there are more
questions, but given your time constraints, understood. Thank you for being
patient today. Okay, Council Members, further discussion on the proposed bill
today? Mr. Inaba, I haven't gone to you yet.
MR. INABA: Yes. Council Member Kierkiewicz, for this bill, do you know if
the administration has included it in the budget for the upcoming fiscal year?
MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Yes, they have. The allocation is $9 million. But this
would set the floor.
MR. INABA: $9 million, which includes five from this and
MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Just $9 million, for housing production. But what this bill
does, is it codifies that particular line item, so that going forward in subsequent
fiscal years, they have to put in at least $5 million. And if times are good, it could
be a bit more, like right now.
MR. INABA: And this is going to be a new line item?
MS. KIERKIEWICZ: That's correct.
MR. INABA: Okay. Well, I do think yeah, we have a lot of similarities here
running between the bills. And it's good that the Office of Housing has maybe
even gone a bit further via this communication, to say even priorities, how
projects would be reviewed and rated. So I think with the more money that we
can offer for the development of affordable housing over the long term, the better.
Yeah, I look forward to these bills going through this week. Thank you.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Mr. Inaba. Ms. Kierkiewicz?
MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Chair, if I could just I want to respond to Council
Member Villegas's questions. I gave a lot of thought around where exactly
we would be housing this particular program. The Revolving Fund is in
Chapter 2, and that particular fund is administered by the Director of Finance,
who would work obviously in collaboration with Housing. But I really wanted
to make sure that those that are experts in the Housing space, which is OHCD,
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Administrator Kunz, and her team, had full control over it, which is why we put in
Chapter 11. And then recognizing that these activities that we're supporting,
right, increasing the supply of rentals, acquiring property, design construction,
rehabilitation, these are not necessarily revenue -generating, so no money would
be generated from these activities to allow it to revolve.
And so that's why there was an intentional decision around we're going to create
a very specific program to serve these needs, and that is going to be the County's
investment in solving that challenge. I hope that provides a bit more information.
Thank you for the question. Chair, I yield.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Ms. Kierkiewicz. I do have
some questions as well, but I'll save them for the directors. I would like to say,
you know, we've had numerous bills in this session that would address homeless
housing in particular. There was Council Member Chung's bill to address
homelessness, which we added the terms on for housing, which was talked about
today; the proposed ballot measures to set aside a percentage of our budget, that
would put funding towards affordable housing. We have the nonprofit grant-in-
aid program. I think it's good for us to be mindful. I mean obviously we're going
in the right direction, but not—maybe year -one, take this giant leap of faith and
hope we can spend the money. You know, this is, again, taxpayer's funds. We
see the purpose, we see the need, but we also need to be cognizant of what we can
actually spend and what we can do.
Regarding this draft, because it's what it is, is a draft Housing Production
Program. My one question was about this 501(c) designation, not (c)3. I mean,
what is the purpose behind the 501(c)? Classically the County cannot give funds
to anyone besides the 501(c)3. Community associations, HOAs (Homeowners
Association), they're off the table because they're 501(c)4s. They're different
designations. But was 501(c) very specifically chosen, or was there a? Yeah,
maybe you can help answer that question.
MS. KIERKIEWICZ: I'm so sorry, this is going to have to be an Administrator
Kunz question.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Did she write this?
MS. KIERKIEWICZ: She and her team. I don't know if Royce Shiroma is on
Zoom. Royce was one of the principal authors, and I'm sure that there's a
specific reason for why 501(c)3 was noted here.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Oh, this was 501(c), that's why I was
asking.
MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Yeah, 501(c). Royce, are you on Zoom?
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CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: That's fine. That's fine. I can—I'll save it
for next time then. I just wanted to put those out there for everyone. Again, I
appreciate this. I mean, obviously, you can see the direction where the Council is
headed. It's good, but just to be cognizant of where we—what we can actually do
with funding provided. But, I like the idea. Okay, with thatoh, Mr. Chung, go
ahead.
MR. CHUNG: Yeah. I guess following up on that. Not exactly on point, though.
You know, I did receive some communications from members of the public and it
has to do with all of these packages that you mentioned. I know we're trying to
address a very serious need in our community, but we also have to be cognizant as
to where these monies are coming from and who's going to be subsidizing all of
this. You know, it's very important, but that has been the gist of some of the
communications that I've been receiving. So just wanted to let you guys know
about that. I support this, of course, but we shouldn't lose sight of the attention
that this problem is getting. But where is it coming from? Who is subsidizing it?
Thank you.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Mr. Chung. Ms. Kimball.
MS. KIMBALL: Yeah, just a couple more suggestions for Council Member
Kierkiewicz. You know, I see affordability period is mentioned in here. As a
preference, definitely wanting to probably see some floor for that, for projects that
are funded. We have some pretty low terms of affordability in Chapter 11, from
the inclusionary zoning, that I don't think are reasonable.
In some of the conversations I've had with affordable housing developers, a Buy
Back provision, so giving the county the authority to have a deed restriction that
allows them to have first Right of Refusal on Buy Back. So just a couple of other
suggestions. Thank you. I yield.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Ms. Kimball. Okay, seeing no
other discussion. Thank you, Ms. Kierkiewicz, for bringing this forward. The
motion is on the floor to forward Bill 160 to Council with a favorable
recommendation. All in favor?
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Vote on Bill 160
(Approved)
May 17, 2022
The motion to recommend passage of Bill 160 on
first reading was carried by the following voice vote:
Ayes: Committee Members Chung, David, Inaba,
Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Lee Loy, Richards, and
Villegas – 8.
Noes: Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder –1.
Absent: None.
Excused: None.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: And moving on to—let's go back to
Bill 159, sir. Thank you.
Return to Order The Chair directed the Committee to return to the order of business.
of Business:
Bill 159: AMENDS ORDINANCE NO. 21-39, AS AMENDED, RELATING TO PUBLIC
IMPROVEMENTS AND FINANCING THEREOF FOR THE FISCAL YEAR
JULY 1. 2021 _ TO JUNE 30. 2022
Adds the Parks and Recreation Hawaiian Paradise Park District Park – Fair Share
project ($235,000) to the Capital Budget. Funds for this project shall be provided
from Fair Share funds and be used for costs associated with planning, design, and an
environmental assessment.
Reference: Comm. 746
Intr. by: Ms. Kierkiewicz
Postponed: May 3, 2022
(Note: There is a motion by Ms. Lee Loy, seconded by Mr. Richards, to recommend
passage of Bill 159.)
(Note: At this time, Parks and Recreation Business Manager Reid Sewake came
forward to address the members of the Committee.)
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Ms. Kierkiewicz.
MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you. I have Reid Sewake here from Parks and
Recreation. Thanks for being available. I know that Director Messina is out in
the field. But I wanted to put this bill forward because for so long Hawaiian
Paradise Park (HPP) has you know, the community, the subdivision of
Hawaiian Paradise Park has really been looking for more recreational facilities
and supports in their community. This project—this master plan for the district
park was completed in March 2018. And there is a lot of history within HPP.
There was a master plan that was done in 1997, that the Council at the time
approved, via resolution.
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I think back in 2015, a survey of the community was done, and amendments to
that particular master plan were adopted, and by and large the highest priority that
was coming out of that survey was just the need for more recreation, right? Parks
to play with your kids in, potentially a swimming pool, an outdoor theater, just a
place for community to gather, to be with one another, to be healthy, and really
enjoy their outdoor environment.
In 2016, the HPP Owners Association donated a 20 -acre parcel off of 26h and
Kaloli, in Hawaiian Paradise Park, to the County for the purpose of carrying out, I
believe, Section 4 of the HPP Master Plan, and that was to create a park. And so
this parcel has been in the County's possessions.
In 2018, the Master Plan for the District Park was completed, and the next phase
is really funding an environmental assessment that identifies if a park were to be
situated here, what's the impact on the environment? You know, they need a
FONSI (Finding of No Significant Impact), and that kind of dictates if we need to
move forward with an environmental assessment—Environmental Impact
Statement, an EIS.
And so this is one of the first steps in park development, and it's going to be a
long process. I don't know if this is something that the County can take on
financially, but with all the money that's available, with Build Back Better,
infrastructure law money, I wanted to make sure that we were taking the step to
complete this, which would put us in a better position to secure federal funding
for park development. So looking for support from my colleagues on this
particular measure. Happy to answer any questions you folks might have. Thank
you. I yield.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Council Members, discussion?
Ms. Lee Loy, go ahead.
MS. LEE LOY: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, thank you, Ms. Kierkiewicz for
advancing this. This has been on the books for a long time, and I think it sort of
got started a little bit, and then I think lava happened. I think we called it Lava
One, then Iselle, then Lava Two, or whatever it was.
But also wanted to share with my colleagues, and especially Ms. Kierkiewicz, I
run into House Representative Greggor Ilagan, who was really excited and offered
his congratulations. I think this is something he talked about back in the days. So
he's just really supportive also of this moving forward.
I also like the idea that we are creating recreational facilities in HPP, because
Lord knows, Council District 3 is really feeling the pressure as far as field and
field -use, and just facility -use. So this is really perfect to offer this recreational
facility. Get that up and running for our families in that community, and then we
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can actually see more events, not only in Hilo, but in HPP for all of our families.
So, I will be supporting this. Thank you, Chair. I yield.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Ms. Lee Loy. Anyone else?
Okay, seeing none, Bill 159, motion to forward Bill 159 to Council with a
favorable recommendation is on the floor. All in favor?
Vote on Bill 159: The motion to recommend passage of Bill 159 on
(Approved) first reading was carried by the following voice vote:
Ayes: Committee Members David, Inaba,
Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Lee Loy, Richards,
Villegas, and Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder — 8.
Noes: None.
Absent: Committee Member Chung — 1.
Excused: None.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Moving on to Bill 169, sir. Thank you.
Bill 169: AMENDS ORDINANCE NO. 21-38, AS AMENDED, THE OPERATING
BUDGET FOR THE COUNTY OF HAWAII FOR THE FISCAL YEAR
ENDING JUNE 30. 2022
Appropriates revenues in the Hawaii Island Bikeshare System — Federal
account ($726,000); and appropriates the Hawaii Island Bikeshare System
— Federal account. Funds would be used to add 15 Hawaii Island
Bikeshare stations in Kailua-Kona and Hilo.
Reference: Comm. 787
Intr. by: Mr. Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder (B/R)
Motion to Approve: Mr. Inaba moved to recommend passage of Bill 169 on
first reading. Seconded by Ms. Lee Loy.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Council Members, discussion on the bill?
did have one for Ms. Sako, given the change to the resolution and the funding
amount, but she's not available. And I guess this could be amended at any time if
there is a need to amend the amount.
MR. BROWN: So should you guys as a body choose to move this forward to
Council, I mean either way it can be move up with a favorable recommendation
or an unfavorable, but you guys will have two more chances at the bill at first
reading and then final reading.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. I feel good with the bill the way it
is, but I would like to see it amended, if necessary, by the department to reflect
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the resolution and communication that was submitted today. So with that, that's
my thoughts, Council. Any discussion? Ms. Kierkiewicz.
MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Chair, I was just going to lend my support to this. My
understanding of the bill is because the federal government is providing us with
funding, we're just receiving it. And I know that there is a particular resolution
attached to this one. There's also a subsequent one that grants a larger amount,
which is this money, but also County -share. So I don't think an amendment to
this particular bill is going to be necessary at this point. I'll be supporting it.
Thank you.
CHR KANEALII-KLEINFELDER: Okay. Okay, thank you, Ms. Kierkiewicz.
Okay, with that, motion is on the floor to forward Bill 169 to Council with a
favorable recommendation. All in favor?
Vote on Bill 169: The motion to recommend passage of Bill 169 on
(Approved) first reading was carried by the following voice vote:
Ayes: Committee Members David, Inaba,
Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Lee Loy, Richards,
Villegas, and Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder — 8.
Noes: None.
Absent: Committee Member Chung — 1.
Excused: None.
Bill 170: AMENDS ORDINANCE NO. 21-38, AS AMENDED, THE OPERATING
BUDGET FOR THE COUNTY OF HAWAII FOR THE FISCAL YEAR
ENDING JUNE 30, 2022
Increases revenues in the Coordinated Services account ($52,461); and
appropriates the same to the Coordinated Services — Other Current Expenses
account, bringing the total appropriation to $188,461. Funds would be used by
the Department of Parks and Recreation's Coordinated Services Division for its
Transportation and Outreach programs.
Reference: Comm. 789
Intr. by: Mr. Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder (B/R)
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May 17, 2022
Vote on Bill 170: Mr. Inaba moved to recommend passage of Bill 170 on
(Approved) first reading. Seconded by Ms. Villegas and carried by the
following voice vote:
Ayes: Committee Members David, Inaba,
Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Lee Loy, Richards, and
Villegas, and Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder — 8.
Noes: None.
Absent: Committee Member Chung — 1.
Excused: None.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: That does bring us to the end of the
Finance Committee agenda, but we do have the referral for Executive Committee.
So at this time
MR. HENRICKS: I'll read it in, if you don't mind?
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you.
REFERRALS FOR The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business,
EXECUTIVE Referrals for Executive Session.
SESSION:
Comm. 792: REQUEST FOR EXECUTIVE SESSION REGARDING HOUSING FUND
BILLS CURRENTLY BEING CONSIDERED BY THE COUNTY COUNCIL
From Corporation Counsel Elizabeth A. Strance, dated May 6, 2022, requesting
an attorney-client confidential discussion to consult with the Council regarding
the above -referenced matter.
Motion to Close File: Ms. Lee Loy moved to close file on Comm. 792. Seconded
By Mr. Richards.
Motion Ms. Lee Loy moved to enter into Executive Session in
to Enter into order to hold attorney-client privileged discussion
Executive Session: regarding Comm. 792, as authorized by Section 92-5(a)(4)
of the Hawaii Revised Statutes. Seconded by Mr. Richards.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay, so motion is on the floor. Council
Members, discussion? Mr. Inaba, go ahead. And before we get into anything that
requires Executive Session, we need to
MR. INABA: Yeah, thank you, Chair. I just wanted to make sure. I mean,
we've had some conversation about these bills. Corporation Counsel, do you
intend to discuss matters outside the memo you provided us?
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(Note: At this time, Corporation Counsel Elizabeth Strance came forward
to address the members of the Committee.)
Point of CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Just a point of information, Mr. Clerk,
Information: if we're outside of our bounds in any way, please let me know, as far as the
discussion right now. Thank you. Ms. Strance, go ahead.
MS. STRANCE: Elizabeth Strance, Corporation Counsel. I intend to discuss
what's in the memo. I'm not sure what you mean by going on—going beyond.
think there are some limitations regarding that. But I'm not just going to read
back the memo to you.
MR. INABA: Okay. Yeah, just having gone through the memo, I would have
preferred to have the discussion in public. So I'm going to be voting against
going into executive session. However, being that it's not a public document at
this time; if we are to discuss it, then obviously we have to go that route. But I
will be voting no, on principle. I think these discussions should be had in open
session for the public to hear why we might or might not be voting for bills before
us.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay, Council Members?
MR. CHUNG: I'm just wondering, is it necessary for us to go into Executive
Session if we don't reference the memo? I mean, maybe if we just talk about it
but not say what's contained in the memo—or opinion.
MS. STRANCE: I understand the inclination, but I do think that there are
sometimes when an attorney needs to be able to speak candidly with her client
and try to be helpful to the Council in its work, and I think that this is one of
those.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Mr. Richards.
MR. RICHARDS: Yeah, thank you, Chair. Corporation Counsel is there to
support us, and if our Corporation Counsel is wanting to go into Executive
Session—Mr. Chung is always wanting to keep everything in the public eye, and I
commend him for that. I think this is a situation where Judge Strance is asking us,
so I think we need to have a conversation. We get to the end of the conversation,
and we open it up, and it's all good. I'm good with that.
But I highly value the Judge's opinion as far as constitutionality; and if she
believes that we need to be in Executive Session, I'm going to support that. So
I'm definitely going to support going in. Thank you, Chair.
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CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Mr. Richards. Okay, with
thatoh, Ms. David, sorry.
MS. DAVID: Yeah. Thank you, Chair. Regarding going into Executive Session,
I believe that there are some matters that we need to discuss, especially when it
has potential for the legal positions or the legal issues that we might have to face
in making decisions that come before us. So, I will be supporting Executive
Session. And should, in Executive Session, this body feels that, you know,
there's really no need to stay into Executive Session, then I think we can just get
out of it. But I want to give our Corporation Counsel the opportunity to express
her concerns or her opinions regarding these matters before us. So, I yield.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Ms. David. Okay, with that I
believe thank you for the discussion, Council. Let's go ahead and take a recess,
while we prep the room for Executive Session. Sorry, all in favor of entering
Executive Session?
Vote on Motion The motion to enter into Executive Session in order to
to Enter into hold attorney-client privileged discussion regarding
Executive Session: regarding Comm. 792, as authorized by Section 92-5(a)(4)
of the Hawaii Revised Statutes, was carried by the following
voice vote:
Ayes: Committee Members David, Kierkiewicz,
Kimball, Lee Loy, Richards, and Villegas,
and Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder — 7.
Noes: Committee Members Chung and Inaba — 2.
Absent: None.
Excused: None.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: We'll take a brief recess, Mr. Clerk.
Thank you.
Recess: At 11:59 a.m., the Chair called for a recess.
Reconvene: The meeting reconvened at 12:02 p.m.
CHR KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: All in favor of closing file on
Communication 792.
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Vote on Comm. 792: The motion to close file on Comm. 792 was carried by
(Filed) by the following voice vote:
Ayes: Council Members Chung, Inaba, Kierkiewicz,
Kimball, Richards, Villegas, and
Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder— 8.
Noes: None.
Absent: Council Member Lee Loy— 1.
Excused: None.
CHR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: That does bring us to the end of our agenda.
Council Members?
ADJOURN- There being no further business, at 1:08 p.m., Mr. Inaba moved to adjourn the
MENT: meeting. Seconded by Ms. David and carried by the following voice vote:
Ayes: Council Members Chung, Inaba, Kierkiewicz,
Kimball, Richards, Villegas, and
Chair Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder— 8.
Noes: None.
Absent: Council Member Lee Loy- 1.
Excused: None.
CHR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: That does bring us to the end of the Finance
Committee, we are adjourned.
Approved:
L/2 2 /Mr. Matt Kaneali`i- Klein de' , Chair (Date)
Finance Committee
MK/na
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