Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAboutMIN PWMTC 2022/10/19 2020-2022 Committee on Public Works and Mass Transit 28th Session West Hawaii Civic Center 74-5044 Ane Keohokalole Highway, Building A Kailua-Kona, Hawaii October 19, 2022 CALL TO The regular meeting of the Committee on Public Works and Mass Transit ORDER: was called to order at 10:32 a.m. in the Council Chambers, Kona, by Ms. Susan L. K. Lee Loy, Chair. ROLL CALL: Present: Ms. Susan L. K. Lee Loy, Chair Mr. Matt Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder, Vice Chair(via videoconference from Hilo Ms. Maile Medeiros David, Member Mr. Holeka Goro Inaba, Member Ms. Ashley L. Kierkiewicz, Member Ms. Heather L. Kimball, Member Mr. Herbert M. "Tim" Richards, III, Member Ms. Rebecca Villegas, Member Absent& Excused: Mr. Aaron S. Y. Chung, Member STATEMENTS The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, FROM THE Statements from the Public on Agenda Items. PUBLIC ON AGENDA ITEMS: (There were none.) CHR. LEE LOY: Mr. Clerk, if you could take us to Bills for Ordinances. BILLS FOR The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, ORDINANCES: Bills for Ordinances. Bill 221: AMENDS CHAPTERS 17 AND 26 OF THE HAWAII COUNTY CODE 1983 (2016 EDITION, AS AMENDED), RELATING TO FIRE Updates and revises the Hawaii County Fire Code to incorporate the 2018 National Fire Protection Association standards and adopt the 2018 Hawaii State Fire Code. Reference: Comm. 1029 Intr. by: Ms. Kierkiewicz (B/R) PWMTC-28 October 19,2022 (Note: Comm. 1029.1, from Council Member Ashley L. Kierkiewicz dated October 17, 2022, transmitting proposed amendments to Bill 221, was circulated.) (Note: Comm. 1029.2, from Council Member Ashley L. Kierkiewicz dated October 17, 2022, transmitting proposed amendments to Bill 221, was circulated.) (Note: Comm. 1029.3, from Council Member Ashley L. Kierkiewicz dated October 17, 2022, transmitting proposed amendments to Bill 221, was circulated.) Motion to Approve: Ms. Kierkiewicz moved to recommend passage of Bill 221 on first reading. Seconded by Mr. Richards. CHR. LEE LOY: Ms. Kierkiewicz, please lead our discussion. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you, Chair. So the County of Hawaii is currently operating under the NFPA-1 (National Fire Protection Association) Fire Code from 2006, and this particular bill is incredibly critical in ensuring that our County is in line with the most current Fire Code regulations which were adopted by the State Fire Code Council in 2018. The body also adopted the 2021 NFPA last month, but our County has two years to kind of review and embed that into our Code and adopt to the Ordinance. So, this particular bill helps to set up a framework for us to do that particular action. I do want to call up our Fire Chief Kazuo Todd and Battalion Chief Palani Kurashige, who were principle in pulling this together. We also have Deputy Corporation Counsel Cody (Dakota) Frenz who helped craft this legislation. And a big shoutout to Leslie Chow in LRB (Legislative Research Branch) for helping to make sure that all of this aligns and syncs. Just a high-level overview of some of the changes that are being considered today. One involves a proposed plan review fee; the other is an increase in increment fees because that hasn't been done for some time now; and the requirement for certificates of fitness, installing systems. And I just want to point out to my colleagues that there are a few amendments that I do want to bring forward. Some are grammatical and others are related to the section on the violation. I don't think we're there yet. I think we need a little bit more time to at least critique, and to what that particular process might look like. And so, Chair, when you're ready, I would love to be able to move those in, but do want to provide Fire the opportunity to just talk globally of this bill. Thank you. CHR. LEE LOY: Thank you, Ms. Kierkiewicz. Mr. Todd, please. Page 2 PWMTC-28 October 19,2022 (Note: At this time, Fire Chief Kazuo Todd and Battalion Chief Palani Kurashige came forward to address the members of the Committee.) CHIEF TODD: Okay, so right now what we're trying to do is just bring us up to the current Code status. Under the Hawaii Revised Statutes, under 107-25, 24, and 28, basically we have a revolving Code cycle for the Fire Code we just adopted by the State Fire Council, and then sent over to the State Building Code Council. Essentially they have a two-year timeframe from when the bill is officially published to adopt within two years. So as you mentioned just briefly before, the 2021 Code has already been adopted at the State level, by basically de facto adoption, because they did not actually get around to doing amendments on the State level because the Code started coming that quickly. We've also had a lot of change over on the State Fire Council, as they're all new chiefs in the County positions at the moment, so there have been some hang-ups because of that. But essentially, we'll be back in front of you within the next two years with the next version of this Code, and thereafter every three years we'll just be in front of you bringing updates. Now the majority of the Code updates that are placed before you are continuations of essentially what we've had in the past. As Council Member Kierkiewicz mentioned, basically we're updating our fees because we haven't touched those in over a decade. The cost of going out and doing inspections has increased, so we're trying to basically capture that cost. And the other thing is that we're looking to capture basically a cost to establish a process of reviewing certain types of plan sets. So currently, you know, plans are coming through the system, into EPIC (Electronic Processing and Information Center), and we are tracking all of those through DPW (Department of Public Works). But one of the things that aren't actually coming through right now is the specific plans for Fire protection systems. So essentially, you know,plans come in and they have theoretical fire drawings for sprinklers, or fire alarms, or things like that. But all those drawings that are getting accepted in the EPIC system right now are theoretical drawings. The reason for that is that the person that's putting together the plan set has not hired, you know, often a general contractor or subcontractor, and the person who does the specialized plan sets for a fire sprinkler system or things like that, that's all they do. So there are companies that do, let's say fire sprinkler systems. So what would happen is when the general contractor comes on, they hire a subcontractor, and then the real plans get made. But those real plans are never actually coming through the EPIC system, so there is no actual documentation. Oftentimes and occasionally, that's running into issues in the field, where we're going out to our job site,just trying to get their seal, and we're running into problems. And some of these things were just not documented initially because we said, "They Page 3 PWMTC-28 October 19,2022 followed the Code," and they said, "Yeah, we'll follow the Code," and then the plan sets come later on and we're like, "Whoa, why are you designing it like this?" It would have been a lot better to capture that ahead of time, but they haven't hired a subcontractor, or they haven't gotten those designs to us. So part of the premise of it is to have a system that allows us to capture those plans, log them off as approved or not approved, and have a digital documentation of that process. And so we're looking to basically tack in a small fee there on top of the 20 percent, I believe is currently charged, that would be 15 percent of the 20 percent, so maybe an additional three percent total in terms of the fees that we get charged. That would support the process of bringing in those extra plan sets so that we have official documentation that they were reviewed. We do actually in turn meet the Fire Code, whichever one they're applying to, and they had gotten the approval to move ahead with that plan set, and hopefully we can cap some of the things that are slowing things down. So that's the idea behind that. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you, Chief. And I just do want to recognize that our office, and Fire, and Corporation Counsel have had some communication from the Department of Public Works, Building specifically,just concerns about how this particular Code, because it impacts Building in their process, would be administered. So Chief, if you could just kind of share with us? You did bring up these specialized plans, and how they could be handled within the EPIC system. We certainly don't want to be burdening, inundating Building with additional work because they have a lot going on, and so wondering if there is consideration around the way Planning does it, where you guys can be having your own clerk to kind of manage the intake and review of those plans. Could you speak to that, please? CHIEF TODD: Yeah. So actually, DPW has reached out and mentioned that they were a little concerned because obviously Magnet as it isoh, not Magnet, EPIC now, as it is, it's already somewhat a difficult system, and they're a little bit low-staffed. So the ability to add more work on top of their current work is not something DPW was really ready to tackle at the moment. In talks with Zendo (Kern) from Planning, he mentioned the possibility of potentially having a separate section within the EPIC system for us, similar to how Planning does it, and then we just managed internally. So that's one of the options we're looking for in terms of moving that forward. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you, Chief. And because we have our Building Division Chief here, Julann Sonomura, if I could just call you forward. I certainly don't want to put any words in your mouth; but just for the record, if you want to just share your insights on this particular bill. Page 4 PWMTC-28 October 19,2022 (Note: At this time, Building Division Chief Julann Sonomura came forward to address the members of the Committee.) CHR. LEE LOY: Thanks, Ms. Sonomura. Introduce yourself for the record and go ahead. MS. SONOMURA: My name is Julann Sonomura. I'm with the Department of Public Works. I'm Building Division Chief. I'm here today to just say that we are in support of adopting the current Fire Code. We do have some concerns about the implementation and the wording in the bill, where theI think it's an AHJ(Authority Having Jurisdiction) authority, being the Fire Chief overseeing and administering the program; and how it may or may not affect Public Works, and our challenge is that we're experiencing with the EPIC program that we are trying to get up and running. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Okay, thank you. Sounds like there's a need for Building and Fire to connect after this meeting to just kind of work out any differences. Thanks again for being here. MS. SONOMURA: Okay, thank you. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Chief Kurashige, did you want to speak to any of this? I know that you were really principal in driving this Code update. MR. KURASHIGE: Okay, I came into this position last year as an Acting Battalion Chief, starting from October, and I know this has already been started, but I was just tasked with trying to finish it the best way we could to get this thing forward. You know, I was tasked with this you know, coming up with the adoption of this 2018 Fire Code, is because we've been operating on a previous version for so long. So again, without the help of Leslie Chow along with Fire Chief Todd, this wouldn't have been possible at this time. But we've been—especially with me working on this, it's been tirelessly—and I spent a lot of hours on this. Again, the intent of this was so that we could move forward and not operate off of an old Code for so long. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you, Chief. All right, I'm going to defer to my colleagues for questions and comments. And Chair, when you're ready, I'm happy to move in the amendments. Thank you. CHR. LEE LOY: Thank you, Ms. Kierkiewicz. My colleagues, any questions, comments? Mr. Richards. MR. RICHARDS: Yeah, thanks, Chair. Based upon what Ms. Kierkiewicz said and what I heard from Public Works, sounds like we need to have a talk story Page 5 PWMTC-28 October 19,2022 before we really advance this, so I think it's a good time to have some conversation on it. But I'm thinking we're going to need to ask for a postponement so that gives them some time to get things worked out. And I don't disagree, we want to keep this thing rolling. We also want to make sure we're rolling in the right direction. I think I will ask for that, but I'll ask for it after we have a bit of a conversation. So at this point, I'm going to yield. CHR. LEE LOY: Thank you, Mr. Richards. Ms. Kimball. MS. KIMBALL: Thank you, Chair. And thank you, Council Member Kierkiewicz, for your work on this, as well as the department; and Leslie (Chow) and Deputy Corp. Counsel Frenz. I'm sure this was a big project. I just actually have a question about the cadence and the timing of the adoption of the State Fire Codes. And thenI'm sorry, the other acronym, NF MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Yes, NFPA. MS. KIMBALL: NFPA, thank you. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: National Fire Protection Association. MS. KIMBALL: Appreciate it. What is the cycle that those are getting—we're trying to catch up to at this point? CHIEF TODD: Okay, so under Hawaii Revised Statutes 107-24, essentially the local the State has two years from the time a Code has basically been put out in order to adopt that Code with amendments. I don't know that the Building Code and other areas have been able to keep up with some of this stuff, but that is what the State is saying. I know on the Fire Code side, at least with the Fire Council, has not been able to keep up with that section in the Hawaii Revised Statutes. But basically, Section 24 says you got two years after the Code has been published. So for example, the 2021 Fire Code, NFPA-1, was published in August of 2020. So as of August 2022, several months ago, that Code needed to have been adopted at the State Fire Council level, with amendments. It was not, and part of this is because we had an entire changeover. At this moment, I am the longest-sitting County Fire Chief in the State of Hawaii. All the County Fire Chiefs have changed in the last year. So there's a new Honolulu Chief, a new Maui Chief, and a new Kauai Chief, and I'm actually now the leader of the State Fire Council, as of one meeting. So we're actually working on those State amendments to push through for the next version of 2021, even as we're still trying to catch up on the 2018 version. And I Page 6 PWMTC-28 October 19,2022 do want to make a correction, technically per that HRS, we are on the 2012 Code, not the 2006. Our language in the Hawaii County Code says "2006,"but the way the Code is written on the Hawaii Revised Statutes, it was actually overrun by the 2012 version when we failed to adopt the amendments the last time around. So, this is us trying to catch up on it. You know, basically when Chief Kurashige was appointed into the position of Battalion Chief of Prevention, the first task and the one I said is the one that needed to happen was we needed to come current with our Code systems and we needed to get this going. He's been working diligently with Leslie, in Administrative Services with the County Clerk side, to get this formatted, and get the proper language in there. It has gone back and forth for months now, as we tweak certain wordings and still missed a few things in that final version, I think because we went over too many versions. But a lot of the language that existed from 2012, when we've been working on it to get brought up into this Code, it just hasn't happened when it should have. Basically, on the Fire Code side, the State Fire Council itself gets the choice of what is our Fire Code going to be, and then we submit that to the State Building Code Council. The State Building Code Council then under HRS 107-25 will adopt and then send it down to the Counties. The Counties can then amend without—the State Building Code Council is allowed to adopt that without Council approval. But what that means, is at the State level they can just adopt the Code, and they don't have to run it through the Legislature. On the County level, we still have to run it through the County Council for amendments to the Fire Code, and hence, the reason we are sitting in front of you today. That make sense? MS. KIMBALL: Oh, yeah. Clear as mud, thanks. No, it does. I think—my questioning along this was really going to go to I'm a developer building a building, is it clear what Code I am trying to develop to at this point, which it sounds like a 2012? CHIEF TODD: Yes, it is confusing as mud, unfortunately. So we've been on the NFPA-1 since 2006, and ultimately even 2012, 2018, and 2021 are very, very similar Codes. There are updates; there are additions. One of the things that we sat last month for, in front of the State Fire Council, was they wanted the section, under the refrigerant storage section, changed. The reason is that due to global warming, and hose and issues and stuff like that, they're changing the types of refrigerants that are going into refrigerating systems, and the Code hasn't kept up. So the reason for Code updates on a pretty regular basis, it isn't that the Code changes particularly a lot, it's because there are new technologies that need to be adopted for. And sometimes we're putting in, you know, slight changes, you know, saying, "Hey, instead of four feet, it should be three feet," or something like that. Page 7 PWMTC-28 October 19,2022 And for that reason, we're just trying to keep current. But if you were to build something on the island and you were running off of the 2006 Code, the odds of anything in there being critically different from 2012 or 2018 are infinitesimal, honestly. Mostly, the changes that we are pushing for adoption, or what is the County specifically going to be permitting in terms of what we are charged fees for, and what are we enforcing in terms of our personnel and inspectors going out and checking things? That's the primary reason that the Code comes up for adoption, otherwise, 99.9 percent of the Code stands as is. We're just getting the newest version, which is accuracy for new technology changes or changes in the industries and things like that. Otherwise, the Code is much the same. MS. KIMBALL: Yeah, and my angle of questioning was kind of to get to, is there anything that we can build in that the State should make future updates more timely? CHIEF TODD: That is a very good question, one which I do not have an answer for at this time. If the County wanted to run the same as the State and pass something that just allowed folks to automatically go through, that might be something to consider. But that is a bigger topic, I'm assuming. The State—it's kind of a weird thing. As far as like the State Building Code and the State Fire Codes and things like that, they're not enforced at the State. It gets into those weird gray areas where, you know we have this State Fire Code, but there isn't a single building in the State that's being enforced at the State Fire Code level. Even the State's buildings fall under the County jurisdiction, sort of. Even that's kind of weird when we get to schools and such like that. Because we've got a lot of schools on the island that doesn't have like working fire alarms and such. They're on a different jurisdictional level, so we'll tell them that they're not in compliance with their own Code, but it's up to them to actually kind of follow through and do something about it. But even for them, they're following whatever the local County is. So if you have a State airport on this island or a State airport on Maui, they follow the Maui County Code, or the Hawaii Code, depending which island it's on, which is based off of that State Fire Code or Building Code, which doesn't directly apply to anything in the State. Did I make it more confusing? I feel like I made it more confusing. MS. KIMBALL: No, no, no, I think that—let's take this discussion outside. You know, I think this is a discussion at a later point. I mean, as you mentioned, some of the differences are probably not significant enough to be really consequential or they're pertaining to specific things that have changed. But just maybe something to think about, to Council Member Richards' point, obviously, there's a little more Page 8 PWMTC-28 October 19,2022 work to do in terms of the alignment and the arrangement with the Department of Public Works. You know, I think one of the benefits that we foresaw with the EPIC system was a single repository for documents in a digital format related to permitting. And so if we create this second stream that's maybe not tied in, I have a little bit of concern about one duplication or a failure to represent the full picture of documents and permitting for a given structure. You know, as we've discussed this, I'll be just supporting holding this until those discussions could be had. Maybe we can come to some resolution there. Thank you, Chair. I yield. CHR. LEE LOY: Thank you, Ms. Kimball. Mr. Inaba. MR. INABA: Thank you. Yeah, I think we're going to have a lot of discussions, it's kind of deja vu with the Building Code. But we have amendments and I think I would like to get through the amendments, and we could have a bigger discussion later. Thank you. CHR. LEE LOY: Thank you, Mr. Inaba. Ms. Kierkiewicz, if you would, so we can round out the bill? MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Sure. Motion to Amend: Ms. Kierkiewicz moved to amend Bill 221 with the contents of Comm. 1029.1. Seconded by Mr. Inaba. CHR. LEE LOY: Ms. Kierkiewicz. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you, Chair. If Council Members would look to page two of the bill, at the top Section 17-1-5, Permits; and then below that, Section 17-1-21, NFPA 1, Fire Code, State Fire Code, at the bottom in brackets you see [2018 HSFC] and their numbers. The first is five, the second is four, and so there was typo on this side. We are trying to ensure that there is the correct ordering of numbers here. So just simple housekeeping fix. Looking for everyone's support on it. Thank you. CHR. LEE LOY: Thank you, Ms. Kierkiewicz. Any discussion? Mr. Inaba. MR. INABA: Yeah, and looking through the numbering in the Hawaii State Fire Code, I understand the ordering might be wrong, but it seems like the language is correct. Fire, do you have any thoughts on this amendment, 1029.1? MR. KURASHIGE: Correct. The language is correct, but the numerical of the numbering is incorrect. Page 9 PWMTC-28 October 19,2022 MR. INABA: So are we reordering it or are we just changing out the number, Ms. Kierkiewicz? MS. KIERKIEWICZ: We are swapping the numbers. Right now, it says five, four. It should be four, five, that we're going in numerical order. MR. INABA: If I'm looking at Section 17-1-5, it references Section 5 from the Hawaii State Fire Code; and when I look at Section in the Hawaii State Fire Code, that is the correct corresponding language. So I understand that the numbering might—the order might be wrong. But if we swap the numbers, then the language referenced is incorrect. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Okay, I'm going to defer to Chief Kurashige because this is an amendment that he had requested our office to process. MR. INABA: Numbers four and five. Okay, let me explain. So at the top of page two, it says, "A permit"this is Section 17-1-5, Permits, "A permit from the AHJ may be required for any area regulated by this article," and it references the language from Hawaii State Fire Code, Section No. 5. When you look at the Hawaii State Fire Code, it's County permit authorization, "Each county may, by ordinance, require that a permit be obtained from the AHJ for any area regulated by this chapter." That is the correct corresponding number, five to five. So if we pass this amendment and swap the number for four, it's referencing adoption of the 2018 NFPA-1 Fire Code, in the Hawaii State Fire Code. It's not the correct—it doesn't reference the same section. So I don't I think we have to not approve this amendment. I think the language as it stands is correct. The numbering is correct. So the order, yeah it's not numerically in order, but the walkover is correct. I won't be supporting this because I think the language is correct as it stands. CHR. LEE LOY: Thank you, Mr. Inaba. Fire Chief, you want to take a few minutes to clarify if the crosswalk is actually correct? MR. INABA: And I would like to add, Chair, if I could? Number two of this amendment speaks to Section 17-1-21, which immediately follows that permitting language, and it speaks to adoption of the 2018 NFPA Fire Code. Number 4 in the Hawaii State Fire Code is correct, and that is the correct reference in the bill right now, Hawaii State Fire Code, Number 4. CHR. LEE LOY: Thank you, Mr. Inaba. We'll give Fire a few minutes. A little follow-up, Mr. Inaba. MR. INABA: Thank you. I think just for the Council, I don't know that we all have all the tools, so if we just google Hawaii State Fire Code 2018, we can pull up what document Bill 221 is cross-referencing with; and the numbers that we Page 10 PWMTC-28 October 19,2022 see, for example, 2018 HSFC No. 2, is No. 2 in that document. So we can see that cross-over. CHR. LEE LOY: Thank you, Mr. Inaba. Deputy Director Frenz, please. (Note: At this time, Deputy Corporation Counsel Dakota(Cody) Frenz came forward to address the members of the Committee.) MS. FRENZ: Good morning, everyone. Deputy Corporation Counsel Cody Frenz, attorney for Fire Department. I'm guessing that both Chief Todd and Chief Kurashige don't have access to the internet. There were a lot of moving parts, I know. So if we're going to be tabling this conversation either way for further discussion with Building and how the two Codes are going to be intersecting, I would recommend we table this as well, so we can double-check and I can have a conversation with the Chief about this, if possible. CHR. LEE LOY: Thank you, Ms. Frenz. Ms. Kierkiewicz. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you, Chair. Rather than table this measure, I don't know if these folks have they don't have all the tools in front of them right now. So I'm just going to withdraw this particular motion. And I have a feeling that we're going to be continuing to have a conversation about this bill in Committee. If there is a need to make any other fixes, we can bring it up at the next Committee meeting. But at this time, I'll be withdrawing that particular amendment. Thank you. Withdraw Motion Ms. Kierkiewicz withdrew her motion to amend Bill 221 to Amend: with the contents of Comm. 1029.1. CHR. LEE LOY: Thank you, Ms. Kierkiewicz. Would you like to entertain any of the other communications? MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Yes, please. CHR. LEE LOY: Go ahead. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you. Motion to Amend: Ms. Kierkiewicz moved amend Bill 221 with the contents of Comm. 1029.2. Seconded by Mr. Richards. CHR. LEE LOY: Ms. Kierkiewicz, go ahead. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you, Chair. This is related to the permit fee table, and so we are looking to strike the contents related to flammable and combustible Page 11 PWMTC-28 October 19,2022 liquid tanks because that is already included later in the table, under storage tanks above ground or underground. Pretty straightforward. CHR. LEE LOY: Pretty straightforward. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Jumping around, the second amendment, related to permitted fees. Thank you, Chair. CHR. LEE LOY: Any comments, questions? Seeing, let's go ahead and take the vote. All those in favor of amending Bill 221 with the contents of Communication 1029.2,please say "aye." Vote on Motion The motion to amend Bill 221 with the contents of to Amend: Comm. 1029.2 was carried by the following voice vote: (Approved) Ayes: Committee Members David, Inaba, Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder, Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Richards, Villegas, Chair Lee Loy —8. Noes: None. Absent: Committee Member Chung— 1. Excused: None. CHR. LEE LOY: Ms. Kierkiewicz. Motion to Amend: Ms. Kierkiewicz moved to amend Bill 221 with the contents of Comm. 1029.3. Seconded by Mr. Inaba. CHR. LEE LOY: Ms. Kierkiewicz. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you, Chair. This particular amendment is related to striking everything related to the Notice of Violation (NOV) section. You know, in my discussion with the Fire Department, I think we're a little bit premature in this section right here. I think this is something we can entertain once this particular ordinance is adopted or as we take a look at adopting the 2021 Code. There is a reference here to a body that doesn't exist, the Fire Board of Appeals, and so rather than creating more government bureaucracy, let's see what sort of Boards and Commissions might be able to handle some of the appeals once the NOV process has been established. But I do think we need a little bit more time to kind of work everything out internally. So I hope my colleagues can agree that we can put a pin in this for a little bit before moving forward. Thank you, Chair. CHR. LEE LOY: Thank you, Ms. Kierkiewicz. Mr. Inaba. Page 12 PWMTC-28 October 19,2022 MR. INABA: Thank you. Within the Fire Department right now, we have a process for Notice of Violation, currently? CHIEF TODD: Yes, that is correct. MR. INABA: And does that process change at all if we remove the language? CHIEF TODD: No, it does not. Essentially, that was adding fines and fees and other things in there. Generally, our current Notice of Violation issues will let you know that you're in violation, then we have the ability to shut a business if we deem it to be basically a hazard to the public health or safety. But we don't have any tie-in system within our current remedies. MR. INABA: Okay. So that practice will be able to be continued. Thank you, Chief. CHR. LEE LOY: Thank you, Mr. Inaba. Anyone else? Seeing none. Oh, Ms. Kimball, go ahead. MS. KIMBALL: Sorry. I hadn't fully formed the thought in my brain. I'm wondering if the Notice of Violation, any fees, and appeals for this part of the Code, could actually be moved to function under another department like DPW or Planning, that already has those components. No, with a big red flag over there from DPW. Oh, Planning's not here. We can give it to them. They can't say no. Okay, I see there are some things that we need to do actually with Notice of Violation outside of this Code that I've been reviewing. So maybe there's an intersection here between some of that administrative function, but maybe doesn't need to be living isolated in the Fire Code but can be at a higher level across multiple agencies. I guess, yeahI'm happy to support this amendment to take it out right now, and then maybe we can go for one of these other mechanisms. Okay, thanks. I yield, Chair. CHR. LEE LOY: Thank you, Ms. Kimball. Anyone else, on the amendment? All right, seeing none. All those in favor of amending Bill 221 with the contents of Communication 1029.3,please say "aye." Page 13 PWMTC-28 October 19,2022 Vote on Motion The motion to amend Bill 221 with the contents of to Amend: Comm. 1029.3 was carried by the following voice vote: (Approved) Ayes: Committee Members David, Inaba, Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder, Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Richards, Villegas, Chair Lee Loy –8. Noes: None. Absent: Committee Member Chung– 1. Excused: None. CHR. LEE LOY: Ms. Kierkiewicz, to the main motion. We're good? All right. My colleagues, any discussion on Bill 221, as amended? Ms. David. MS. DAVID: Thank you, Chair. I just have one general question, given the fact that DPW needs to continue its work with you folks and kind of meld these two processes together. Currently when applications come through the Fire Department for review, what are you using as far as your approval standard for—now that we're in this limbo area and the Code is not updated, what Code are you using to approve and review applications that have to basically get your approval? What are we using now? CHIEF TODD: So technically, right now we're under the 2012 Code, and that's technically what we're supposed to be using to enforce, however, we do offer a concurrency up to the current Code. So potentially speaking, if you had said, "Hey, 2012 doesn't cover this area, but in 2018, this gets allowed" or something like that, we would consider that. So there are options in there to just come current from whatever the current Code system is. And so that's essentially how we're looking at stuff. Does that make sense? MS. DAVID: Yeah. So you're using a combination of both; if it's not covered in 2012 then it might be covered in 2018, and that's how you make your decisions then. CHIEF TODD: That will be correct. MS. DAVID: Okay. Okay, that's all I have. Thank you. CHR. LEE LOY: Thank you, Ms. David. Anyone else? Mr. Richards. MR. RICHARDS: I think we've gotten to the end of the conversation here, so I would move to postpone Bill 221 to the next Committee meeting. Is two weeks going to be enough? CHR. LEE LOY: Mr. Richards, if you don't mind, I did have a couple of questions before we do that. Page 14 PWMTC-28 October 19,2022 Withdraw Motion MR. RICHARDS: I don't mind at all, so I will retract, and withdraw. to Postpone: CHR. LEE LOY: Thank you. If there are no more comments from my colleaguesChief, thanks for being here. I think we've had that discussion. I actually had some questions around the permit fees, and I know that these numbers weren't just magically kind of placed in this chart. If you wouldn't mind kind of expressing how you arrived at those numbers, and that there was some thought process that went into not just a nice round number. CHIEF TODD: Well, we put it in there because it was a nice no. So essentially, it's based on what it costs us now. Sometimes we send someone overtime to visit a site, and because of the size of the island, then drivetime we you know, it really does depend. There are some inspections that cost less than that, and there are some that end up costing us more. And to some extent, it is a nice round number that basically is where we thought our average price point was in terms of getting an inspector out on overtime to go visit and do things like that, in terms of inspections. CHR. LEE LOY: Thank you. I do have a question on the carnivals and fairs permit. My understanding is this would be something that would be done under a temporary building permit or the like. And then, there's this fee. So it would be an additional fee, the $25 for the temporary building permit, and then $200, so, the total cost of$225. CHIEF TODD: Yeah, so that particular fee I think kicks in about twice a year. Once, when we would do a Kona festival, you know, when EK Fernandez is coming in, and once in Hilo. It's actually one of those few that had cost us more than $200, because there are usually meetings that come in, where we go and speak out at the vendors that are coming in to do cooking, we're doing inspections, and we have using multiple inspectors out there. So while it isn't just a right, nice, round number,part of the reason is we kind of average out our inspections. So in that particular one, it does cost us more on the County side,just to be there and present, as we educate vendors. We put in the time to explain what kind of fire extinguishers they need to use, because some fire extinguisher's classes sometimes—and the reason is, is we're bringing in a lot of people into a small area, and the potential exists there for something to go wrong. And we also usually drop large tents, and so there's some inspections on that as well as the equipment operations that go in. CHR. LEE LOY: Okay, great. Thank you. And thank you for elaborating on that. I just wanted to demonstrate that there was some thought. I had a question regarding water. The conversation came up around sprinklers and sprinkler systems and how they're evaluated. My question is if this Code Page 15 PWMTC-28 October 19,2022 addresses that issue related to water; because if their construction requires sprinklers, I'm not sure if I'm using the right term, but there's not enough water capacity, how are we addressing that in the Code? CHIEF TODD: So NFPA-I actually does cover, in terms of water supply and how to supplement it should there not be available, like water from that system, so that could be done with tanks. It can be done with all permitting extinguishing systems. It could be a value that the pressure in the system nearby is too low, and so essentially what you do is you have a larger pipe size to reduce friction lost issues, and that might be one of the outcomes to that particular thing. But the options are in the Code in terms of how you would deal with a lack of water, from either having your own water supply, such as tanks outside the building, or larger pipe sizes or things like that. Does that make sense? CHR. LEE LOY: Absolutely. And I'm asking that question because I think for our design professionals, which is something Ms. Kimball is touching upon, you know, we just went through a huge Code update with all of our Construction Codes, and so we just want to make sure that our design professionals are knowing what to design too, and if there are tools in future Codes that they can actually utilize some of that. And back to the cookbook, right? This is a cookbook of recipes, and you can substitute honey with sugar, and all of those options are still available. And the follow-up to that, and maybe this is a questionoh, Mr. Richards' light is on—on our ag structures, that was another concern about needing water as it relates to our ag structures. CHIEF TODD: Is that a question? MR. RICHARDS: Yeah, is that a question? CHR. LEE LOY: Yeah. I mean, because we have structures in ag zoning and have limited water that's available in ag, and if meeting those Fire requirements are permitted under this Code? CHIEF TODD: You know, it's been a long—since I did plan review. I know when we were running a lot of the ag structures that were out there, they didn't really fall under our purview, as far as needing water or things like it. It kind of depends because there are a lot of different kinds of ag structures. I remember we did a coffee farm processing plant, which, you know, they're saying it's an ag building. It's basically a roof, and then we got all this processing happening underneath it, but because they have equipment and machinery and potential sources of fire, they're roasting and other things, and they didn't have water, the solution for us was a water tank on site. And the Code does allow us to kind of figure out, or allow for alternatives if it's not specifically in the Code. Page 16 PWMTC-28 October 19,2022 And we work with people basically to figure how we're going to supply those needs. Oftentimes if you're out in the middle of nowhere, and we're saying, "Hey, that's a potential fire issue," or things like that, the simple issue is just the water tank that you normally are using to supply for the building gets a little bit bigger, and then there's a connection for the Fire Department to be able to suck some water out of it, if there is an issue. That's generally how we're dealing with those issues. Needless to say, if someone is having problems going on, come talk to the Fire Department. We are going to make sure that you're taken care of and still safe. CHR. LEE LOY: Excellent answer. All right. Those were my questions. Mr. Richards. MR. RICHARDS: Yeah, thanks. This conversation reminded me of some stuff. I don't fully expect an answer on some of this right now, but since we were—my intention is to postpone in a little bit. A couple of things then, to Ms. Lee Loy's point when it comes to the agricultural side, I have a situation where we get a little structured around Fire Code. And I understand the Fire Code, but the question has come up repeatedly, is implementing a new Fire Code, is that going to increase construction costs because of safety concerns? And going forward, and this is probably a general question across what barometer are we using when we say that we have enough? I can think of one ag construction, greenhouses, where nothing is flammable there, but we had to comply—or they had to comply with the Fire Code to get a fire truck in to take care of a steel building where there's no human, I mean it's soft walls and all that. So there are some concerns from the agricultural standpoint that we're being very specific, and I get it, but the application of that I don't expect the full answer right now. The point is I think the temperance and the ability to recognize that this is agriculture and nothing can burn here anyway, that was on one side. Then we had another situation where a house did not qualify to get a water meter, and the recommendation was to then put in a water tank like you've described for fire safety, fire mitigation, and fire suppression, but the hydrant was less than 40 yards away, but they still required a water tank for water accumulation. And so again, some of our Fire Codes I get it to a point, but I want to be sure that we are being very mindful of tampering with the interpretation, so we recognize that some of these things are probably a little bit of an overreach. Again, I don't expect full answers, but I understand that the concerns of my constituents have raised. Page 17 PWMTC-28 October 19,2022 CHIEF TODD: All right. So let me address to the best of my ability. One hundred percent we're on the same page. I've already sat down witha meeting with the Water Department over their standard, as well as Zendo, on Planning, for variance, and you know, people didn't want to split their properties or things like that, and rein back what the Fire Department was getting involved in. So our goal is to stick to the Fire Code, and there are options within the Fire Code to have a variance based on specific needs. And we are not here to put a kibosh on developing property or mandating really harsh requirements to come andI know that in the past, the Fire Department has gotten pretty stringent on things. It is not policy; and should there be any issues, feel free to come and see me and we can have that conversation. My goal is that we provide for a reasonable level of safety, and in fact, we fit within the Fire Code. That is the goal. We're not going to be stretching out to look at the State Water System standards, and tell people that, "Hey, there's a section in there for fire that you need to"no, the State Water System's standards are going to be managed by the Water Department. The Fire Department is restricted to managing from the Fire Code, and that's when the building plans are coming in, and we'll talk about how we either meet the Code or how we allow ourselves the ability toa variance, or work around the Code to get to where we need to be for generalized safety. A good example of this was TMT (Thirty Meter Telescope). I don't know if it will ever be built, but it is a specific type of building that is not something we can access, right? It's up on the mountain. I'm not going to get fire trucks up there in any reasonable amount of time, should the building go up. And so they've come in when they're doing design plans, about how do we meet safety. And there are opportunities there. In many ways, you know, you have these agricultural buildings or ranch buildings that could be way out there. The reality is my ability to get to what is on a horse path out in the middle of nowhere, may not exist. And so trying to establish like, hey, this building, or this farm structure, or something like that, needs to meet a Fire Code, when a firetruck is never going to be able to get there in time is kind of ludicrous. So definitely, we understand that there are going to be things that are coming across in the Code that just are not your typical thing. The Code is not really designed for that, in concept. We'll find away to make that work. We're not here in the way of Building or to slow things down; if anything, there are new sections in the Code, in this current version, that link to ways that you can meet those water requirements, and they're more flexible than they were in the past. And also, we removed sections in the previous 2006 one that we're mandating things that I thought were maybe a little too stringent, in terms of residential water supply and things like that. So for that reason, I think it will actually lower cost Page 18 PWMTC-28 October 19,2022 and hopefully speed up the process for the plan review and make it easier to do building in Hawaii. MR. RICHARDS: Chief, thanks for that. And I ask the question,just again from people watching this as much as anything else to get the intention. The intention is to maintain safety. I get that; I think the whole Council appreciates that. But it's in temperance, and it doesn't make any common sense to do that, the strict interpretation. So, I appreciate that. I think the community and I know the agricultural community, will definitely appreciate that interpretation. So, with that— CHR. hatCHR. LEE LOY: Thank you, Mr. Richards, but I do see our colleague in Hilo, Mr. Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder, his light is on. Mr. Kleinfelder. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Chair Lee Loy. Thank you for being here today, Mr. Todd. Thank you, Ashley, for bringing this forward. My question is going to go back to any changes that were made to roof additions, because being my background is solar, I cannot help but ask the question. Are there any changes to the use of roof space, clearances from ridges, vent caps, and vent pipes? Anything like that, that the different industries may need to be aware of? CHIEF TODD: I do not believe there's any change between the 2018 and the 2012 Code in terms of basically the pathways the Fire Department is requiring to access the roof in the case of a fire. I'd have to double-check, but I think it remains the same, which is basically that we're looking for a path to get up to the ridge, and then the path at the top of the ridge to get across the building, if we need a vent at the ridge. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. Currently, I believe CHIEF TODD: And I'll go double-check on that, okay? MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: I think before it was 10 inches clearance from the ridge of the roofing to the panels, but I think it's been moved to 18 inches recently, in the past year or so. I'm just just from my experienceI mean, some many people are moving to solar to help in sustainability measures, and limiting electricity costs for households. The more space we can offer on roof faces, specifically south faces, the better that we can provide opportunities for our community to lessen their expenses and move towards being sustainable. So anything we can do in this Code change to address the availability of solar on roof space would be tremendous for both the installation experts and for the community members to utilize roof space. I think just aI don't think it will take you long, but a real quick review of what is required, what our options are, and what the bare minimum of space needed for Page 19 PWMTC-28 October 19,2022 firefighter personnel to address fire concerns in a building and let the industry do what they need to do would be greatly appreciated. CHIEF TODD: I will do some research, and I'll get back to you. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you very much. And to Ms. Lee Loy's and Mr. Richards' point, for most of the district that I represent, maybe this whole island, when there isn't County water or a County fire hydrant available, any kind of facility requires firefighting fire response equipment within the building. I have heard from different folks say that a 10,000-gallon water tank is required to help with any firefighting response on the premise. That is not a small tank. I understand the reason for that, but I've seen this for buildings that have a 20x24 footprint, requiring a 10,000-gallon water tank even though County water is available at the site. That is a major hurdle for any kind of business opportunities that are trying to grow in our community when the limitation is a very expensive fire suppression system, with the inclusion of a water tank, and company equipment, or the ability to get a six-inch valve required for the connection to the fire truck, so they can use it—basically putting the pressure on the homeowner to provide a 10,000-gallon water tank so that the Fire Department can utilize it in the event that there is a fire-based emergency at the property. That, to me, is very prohibitive for the growth of a business. If we're pushing for more business growth and more economy and sustainable economy, that is not a selling point. So I have to concur very strongly with Mr. Richards and Ms. Lee Loy, for the comments earlier that were made. CHR. LEE LOY: Thank you, Mr. Kleinfelder. Before I go to Mr. Inaba, I see Ms. Frenz. Her hand is up. No? We're good? Okay. Mr. Inaba. MR. INABA: Perfect timing because my question is for Ms. Frenz. (Note: At this time, Deputy Corporation Counsel Dakota(Cody) Frenz came forward to address the members of the Committee.) MR. INABA: With regards to the Hawaii State Fire Code,just so that we all understand, is it basically like Hawaii Revised Statutes? We don't—we take down what the Hawaii State Fire Code says, and we cannot do less than what the Hawaii State Fire Code is? MS. FRENZ: That's my understanding of the Hawaii State Fire Code. But I will admit that I'm this is my first time working with it. So I will confirm, Council Member Inaba, that this is in fact the case. I don't want to ever misspeak, but that is my understanding. But I will confirm between now and the next hearing date that that is in fact accurate. Page 20 PWMTC-28 October 19,2022 MR. INABA: Fire Chief Todd? CHIEF TODD: Okay, so I did want to follow up on Council Member Kleinfelder's statement about water supply. So that was under our old amendments, in the 2006 Code, under Section 42, for alternative water supply, which is not being brought forward. Instead, we're just bringing everything back into the Code. That was put there because of our rules with water supply issues within areas like Paradise Park and whatnot, whether it's just one hydrant for the entire subdivision, and basically, that was something previous administrations had thought would be useful because we just don't have any water. The section was added to the Code back in 2006, but the Mayor at the time decided that was unfeasible. So it had to some extent, what they did was instead of trying to be super strict on that, the goal was to actually give the Fire Department some water tankers, and go forward in that way. I don't know that it always has played out that way, but the goal going forward is not to create additional alternative water supply concepts within our Code and just we're going to stick to the Code. And then if there's a variance needed, you can basically submit for it, and we'll look at that and consider the fact that, hey, this is a building out in the middle of nowhere and nothing can burn; and we're not concerned about life safety issues because, you know, all the walls are open, or things like that. If anything, the goal going forward is to stick pretty much to the Code, allow for variances where, you know, situation deems it and it's beneficial to the public, and it doesn't affect life safety. And then my understanding on the State Code thing, is that we adopt it—I'll check with Cody too, but I thought we could be less stringent or more stringent. But I'll double-check on that, too. MR. INABA: Okay, thank you. Chair, I yield. CHR. LEE LOY: Thank you, Mr. Inaba. Anyone else? Before I give it to Mr. Richards, Ms. Frenz, if you don't mind during this postponement, when Fire, DPW, Planning, everyone gets together, in this particular bill is the definition of AHJ as it relates to Fire. I think my concern and something that Julann brought up earlier, is that there are times where Fire and the shop drawings—DPW has a different definition of AHJ, and I just want to make sure that as they crosswalk, the definition of AHJ helps Fire for their needs and their execution of the Fire Code, but where it overlaps with the department,we know who is the authority having jurisdiction. It looks like Mr. Todd has CHIEF TODD: Yeah, so actually under Section 17-1-4 under Definitions for this document, it defines AHJ or "Authority having jurisdiction" as the Hawaii Fire Department for this chapter, essentially. So I don't know if that needed to be expanded on, but that was kind of the concept in there, is that the language being brought forward on the State level just drops AHJ in a variety of responses. And Page 21 PWMTC-28 October 19,2022 rather than changing every single one of those to say Hawaii Fire Department, we just put a definition section under the first page to sort of adopt that. CHR. LEE LOY: Yeah. And the research, Cody,would be AHJ as it applies to Chapter 5, which is a different definition. And that's why I'm saying when your plans move over to DPW, and they have to review, there's a conflict between the definition of AHJ in the chapter; what will be now 17, and Chapter 5. So I just want to make sure that the definitions are talking to each other. I see Cody nodding. MS. FRENZ: Will do. I understand. I'll double-check the discrepancy that you indicated, and make sure that we can somehow conform both going forward, or so that we don't need to also do what they—DPW Code amendment as well, for this purpose. So I will address that next time, as well. CHR. LEE LOY: Thank you. And if not, you know, all of our Codes have a severability clause, and maybe that's something that we can refine so that in those areas where there's a conflict between different chapters, we know which one will supersede one another. All right. Seeing no more, Mr. Richards. MR. RICHARDS: So I'd like to move that we postpone Bill 221 to, and I'm going to look at Julann and Chief. We got November 1" or November 15''. You guys want to arm wrestle or jan-ken-pon, and figure out which date? CHIEF TODD: So what date were you moving for? MR. RICHARDS: How time-sensitive is this? Do you want to have enough time to get it worked out? Ms. Frenz, do you have a weigh-in? CHIEF TODD: November I"I think we've already got some other things going on. MR. RICHARDS: So it would be the 15''. Hang on, Chief, before you go. Judge Strance, you should have something on weigh-in. CHIEF TODD: Yeah, the 15'h sounds good. Motion to Postpone: Mr. Richards moved to postpone Bill 221, as amended, to November 15, 2022. Seconded by Mr. Inaba CHR. LEE LOY: Any discussion on the postponement? I see Ms. Kimball's light. Go ahead. MS. KIMBALL: Yeah, I just want to be mindful of the upcoming transition of terms. And so if we postpone it to the 15'', we have our last potential Committee Page 22 PWMTC-28 October 19,2022 conversation, and then we wouldn't have a Council meeting until the new term is in, in late December. Considering that this is fairly complex, and we're going to be bringing in three new Council Members, I'd almost like to make the recommendation that we push this as far out as the first Committee meeting in January. I know that's a long time, but then you have the opportunity for the three new Council Members to discuss this at the Committee level. Thank you. CHR. LEE LOY: Thank you, Ms. Kimball. Any more discussion? Mr. Inaba. MR. INABA: Yeah, I understand where Council Member Kimball is coming from. The current State Code that we're working with was adopted at the beginning of 2021, right? So technically our two-year window would be CHIEF TODD: So we don't have to do this because it will be automatic in January, anyway. But it just comes without any amendments at that point. MR. INABA: Which would put us in that— CHIEF hatCHIEF TODD: Yeah. It's up to the County Council on what you guys would want to do. I would kind of prefer pushing for the 15th, but I'll leave it up to you guys to make a decision. MR. INABA: I personally would like to see it go. You know, even if we have to take it up with new Council Members, to put us in a place of limbo that we automatically accept the Hawaii State Fire Code as it is, and it might be like that for two months before weI think we've got to do the November 15th. CHIEF TODD: On the other side of it, 2021, is come in here, and we'll be back sitting in front of you guys with the new County Council Members, within probably a year, I'd estimate. We're not going to try to wait until the next two years almost done to do it. So the next County Council may also get the opportunity to weigh in very shortly thereafter. MR. INABA: Perfect. Chief Kurashige is an expert now, I think. So thank you, Chair. I yield. CHR. LEE LOY: Ms. Kierkiewicz, I see your light. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you. My preference is to postpone this to the 15th, I mean, I really prefer the 1st so we can get it over the finish line. I'm very mindful of transitions, but I recall—you know, my first meeting with Council Member Villegas, Council Member Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder, we were saddled with some pretty heavy legislation that was in first and second reading already, and so it just comes with the nature of the job. Page 23 PWMTC-28 October 19,2022 I do anticipate our new colleagues being very eager to read this new section of Code, and so just want to keep moving this forward. I don't want to sacrifice any time by pushing this off to January. I think it's really important that we move this Code in because it helps to keep our community safe and it allows our firefighters to be doing their best at their job. So I do support postponing this until the November 15'h meeting. I think it gives our office enough time to engage with Public Works, maybe Planning, Fire, and Corporation Counsel to ensure everybody is on the same page with how this Code would be administered. Thank you, Chair. CHR. LEE LOY: Thank you, Ms. Kierkiewicz. Mr. Richards, any more comments? MR. RICHARDS: No, I think I5h—again, mindful of Ms. Kimball's concern, however, the 15'', that's plenty of time to get things worked out, so should be able to flow reasonably quickly on the 15''. And if a postponement needs to occur, it can happen when it gets to Council. This is only Committee right now. So, I yield. CHR. LEE LOY: Thank you. Anyone else? All those in favor to postpone Bill 221 to November 15, please say "aye." Vote on Motion The motion to postpone Bill 221, as amended, to Postpone: November 15, 2022, was carried by the following (Approved) voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members David, Inaba, Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder, Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Richards, Villegas, Chair Lee Loy –8. Noes: None. Absent: Committee Member Chung– 1. Excused: None. Page 24