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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMIN CRCOC 2023/08/01 (2022-2024) Committee on Communications, Reports, and Council Oversight 12th Session Hawai`i County Building 25 Aupuni Street Hilo, Hawai`i August 1, 2023 CALL TO The regular meeting of the Committee on Communications, Reports, and ORDER: Council Oversight was called to order at 9:00 a.m., in the Council Chambers, Hilo, by Ms. Rebecca Villegas, Chair. ROLL CALL: Present: Ms. Rebecca Villegas, Chair Ms. Jenn Kagiwada, Vice Chair Ms. Cindy Evans, Member (via videoconference from Kona) Ms. Michelle M. Galimba, Member Mr. Holeka Goro Inaba, Member Mr. Matt Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder, Member Ms. Ashley L. Kierkiewicz, Member Ms. Heather L. Kimball, Member Ms. Susan L. K. Lee Loy, Member STATEMENTS The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, FROM THE Statements from the Public on Agenda Items. PUBLIC ON AGENDA ITEMS: (There were none.) COMMUNI- The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, CATIONS: Communications. Comm. 372: REQUESTS A PRESENTATION BY GREG ASNER, PHD., RELATING TO A STUDY ENTITLED "CORAL REEFS BENEFIT FROM REDUCED LAND- SEA IMPACTS UNDER OCEAN WARMING" From Council Member Heather Kimball, dated June 26, 2023. Motion to Close File: Ms. Kimball moved to close file on Comm. 372. Seconded by Ms. Kagiwada. CHR. VILLEGAS: At this time, I'll go ahead and turn it over to Council Member Kimball to make the introduction and get us started today. CRCOC-12 August 1,2023 MS. KIMBALL: Thank you, Chair. So everyone I'm very excited to welcome Dr. Greg Asner, to the Council today to present about his research in Hawai`i County with respect to Coral Reefs and Land Use. As a scientist, I'm totally a fan girl for Greg Asner. He is both an amazing scientist, and somebody I would also like to consider a friend. If I had a like a lighter, you know, I would be doing that right now. Anyway, you know, it's interesting in science because often times scientists are not supposed to present values, or to take policy positions, or to advocate because that is seen as a violation of their credibility as a scientist. Dr. Asner is one of the rare folks that has such a strong backing of science, that he was able to make the transition to somebody that just does pure research to somebody that advocates for real change. And so I'm really glad to be able to have him present to us today, the motive is to fold. First, I think I wanted to make sure that you folks were all aware of some of the data sets that are available to help us make better land use decisions. Secondly, in the particular area that Dr. Asner will be covering, Miloli`i, Michelle and I have a project that is underway. And so, this will present some of the background information for what Michelle and I are doing at a later point. So Dr. Aser, feel free to expand on the introduction, I'm so grateful for you and Paulina for being here today. (Note: At this time, Ecologist Greg Asner,Ph.D., came forward to address the members of the Committee.) MR. ASNER: Thank you. I really appreciate being here, it's really a pleasure. Chair Kimball, County Council Members, it's an honor to be here, and to be able to have a little bit of your time. As Heather said, I have a background that's about 35 years in science here. And over the past 10 years in particular, I've been trying to translate not only our science but the science of the community, to be more useful to governments, to communities, to culture leaders and so forth. So that's how I got to know some of you, and that's what I'm here to do today. The real thing I want try to take you through today, is the outcome of 20 years of a single program result. And I thought I would focus on this because in a week it's coming out in a major journal. Science, a major following of the press international because it's not just about Hawai`i, it's about how we come to learn how to know what's going on with our coastline, and our reefs, and how we treat our land. So this is a story I'm going to tell, it's got some science in it. The science I know is, well it's 20 years of science so how do I make that go for you in 15 minutes or so. It's visual; so, I did bring slides like a good scientist, and I'll just take you through that story. Whether you understand every data point, it doesn't matter to me, it's that you know that the story I'm telling is based on the data points. Page 2 CRCOC-12 August 1,2023 (Note: At this time, Ecologist Greg Asner, Ph.D., provided a PowerPoint presentation to the members of the Committee. For viewing of the presentation, see the DVD copy of the proceedings on file in the Clerk's Office, or online at http://hawaiicounty.granicus.com. A copy of the presentation is made part of the record, see Comm. 372.) MR. ASNER: I think that's it, thank you. MS. KIMBALL: Thank you, so much Greg. And I hope everybody found that presentation valuable. I want to ask you a couple of questions, and then I'll pass it on to my colleagues to ask additional questions. One of the things that I think I'd really like to highlight to the Council, are some of the data sets, and you did briefly mention the infrastructure mapping data sets. Could you just briefly cover some of the data sets that you have acquired to—the results within this work. MR. ASNER: So we through our federal agency partnerships and DLNR (Department of Land and Natural Resources) we very commonly map land and sea resources. And in that process, we've learned over the years to include our infrastructure, as scientists sometimes we sort of exclude it and want to look at nature. But now days we very much focus on our ability to—in three dimensions map where sheds are, where housing is being built, where roads are either paved or unpaved. In the context of the lay of the land, and how it's changing overtime. An easy one would be the 2018 lava flows. We knew exactly what was there before, and exactly what was thereafter. And we helped the county out at that point, I recall. So we do have that capability, we also have capabilities looking at invasive species in detail. Those tend to be—I guess county is definitely, I'm sure interested in that,but that's often for DLNR process like DOFAW (Division of Forestry and Wildlife) And then on the reef side, we are very focused on two types of mapping capabilities. One is what is the quality of the reef itself, and the other one is what is the quality of the water going into the reef. And so we have new tools and ever improving tools for looking at water quality from our aircraft program, which is based here in Hilo since 2004. So hopefully that's a good answer, for you. MS. KIMBALL: Yeah, thank you. So for my colleagues, the aircraft program is mostly using Lidar(Light Detection and Ranging) among other things,but can you describe the resolution of the data sets that you have available. MR. ASNER: Depends on what's the need,but typically they are resolution of windows and doors, I try to translate for folks. Yeah, very fine resolution. You won't see it in people's homes, don't worry about that. But you see that there's a place with a roof, that has x and y's dimension that kind of thing. For plants and natural resource, it's tree by tree, yeah, it's quite resolute. Page 3 CRCOC-12 August 1,2023 MS. KIMBALL: Great. And of course, when we're thinking about runoff and drainage your data sets include a very high-level digital elevation model which is the surface level of the ground. MR. ASNER: Yeah, so being on an island that' a—I did the calculation almost 19 times the size of O`ahu, that's huge right. Being on such a huge island that's so three dimensional with high volcanoes, the three dimensionality of our mapping is critical. To move water, to understand how water is flowing to understand access. Road access, anything. It's to look at in 2D would be a colossal mistake now days, it's definitely a 3D deal of what's going on. MS. KIMBALL: Great, thank you. The other thing I wanted to just highlight is you have the slide in there talking about cesspools and septic system, and nutrient loading. Kind of at a high level can you explain that issue, and why in some areas a conversion from a cesspool to a septic may not be sufficient to protect our waters. MR. ASNER: So cesspool is a hole in the ground, septic tank is a treatment tank with a field piping system, that the liquid to come out into the ground. So it's like a two-stage thinking, and the Department of Health controls all of that process to my knowledge. Those septic tanks,people mix them all up. The septic tanks work best when they are in soil, when they are in clay soil or some sort of substrate that is absorptive and allows for that liquid to evaporate to not flow out. The problem really is along our coastlines on a lot of these younger substrates, Mauna Loa, Kilauea especially those two. But I think Hualalai as well, I'm not sure about that one, but you have to check me on that. But those substrates are so rock, still cracked rock that the die tracer studies all of the studies show that those letch fields are communicating to the ocean. Some of the famous works from the University of Hawai`i (UH)Hilo lab, couple of faculties; there are Puako tell a very clear story. We see the same in South Kona, we're just replicating that story now in South Kona. So I think we need to think about how these rocks substrate, that we're aggressively building on how they can be retooled and or changed. How the work is being done with septic tanks, and those primarily rocks substrate areas that we need change that as soon as possible. I showed the Miloli`i subdivision example because it's happening on rock substrate. We know they're communicating you see that scary graph if you need housing that' s a great graph. We all do, but if you are worried about wastewater pollution that's a scary graph, right. Two sides to that. Why aren't we able to move forward with the many different alternatives to septic tanks that are out there? I don't do that work, I'm the monitoring guy. There's a lot of innovators in that space, so how do we as a community advance the ability for those companies to get in there and compete and play that role of replacing septic tanks in those areas. It's dirty business. Page 4 CRCOC-12 August 1,2023 MS. KIMBALL: Yeah, thank you. For my colleagues Dr. Tracy Wagner and Dr. Steven Colbert from UH Hilo have done a lot of these dye tracer studies. Putting the dyes into the septic system or cesspools, this is also Keaukaha. I mean they done that study there, and they found that the communication between the septic systems and the ocean is extraordinarily rapid actually in the Hilo area. Just as a final thing, you know, one of the things that you said to me when we met; was that Miloli`i, the reef there looks like Puako did about 40 years ago. MR. ASNER: Shall I tell it, the story? MS. KIMBALL: Yes,please tell the story. MR. ASNER: In 1970 when I was two, Puka Reef had a little over 70 percent coral cover. We know this now, we're about to publish that in a separate process. But that was 1970, 70 plus percent coral cover today it has seven. And we also know that it's really not a climate issue, the climate change part of that story came in 2015. There's zero measurement, there's zero signal of climate effect prior to 2015 for 120 years prior to 2015. So it's not the climate, it's how we're treating our lands. And then our data for Puako, we see two huge drops in the quality of the reef One in the earlier phase of development in Puako, and one in the more recent phase. So that's the story I'm trying to avoid all over Hawaii Island wherever I can with you guys. MS. KIMBALL: Yeah. So that's what really struck me is that in some of our areas on this island, there's still an opportunity to get ahead of it and ensure that the quality of the reef remains. And it's not just about happy fish and happy polyps, as our former Council Member Chung would say; the reefs really do provide coastal protection for our communities. They are an important culture resource as well as a food resource. And so I think we have data sets available to us that would help make some of these decisions, and there is still time, all is not lost. So thank you Greg, I'll pass it to my colleagues for any additional questions. CHR. VILLEGAS: Thank you, Council Member Kimball. Anyone else? Council Member Galimba. MS. GALIMBA: Just a very tiny question. That bump, is that Miloli`i? 170 on your—I don't know what that is. MR. ASNER: Yes, that's the subdivision. So amazingly, I think what you're asking is how sensitive is our work. And amazingly that subdivision does pop up in our measurements now. Don't quote me exactly but it's something like 10,000 to 12,000 gallons of effluent per day from that subdivision going into the ocean from just 200 homes. So it's a lot,but we are really good at getting these Page 5 CRCOC-12 August 1,2023 numbers for you all so that you can stay ahead of the problem, as best as you can in the process. MS. GALIMBA: Right. I mean, Miloli`i is really kind of unique spot,because it actually—I mean, in the greater scheme of things 200 houses are not a lot,but it is the land that it's on it's particularly I think porous. And then the reef is particularly untouched. I guess, it's just a poster child. MR. ASNER: That's why we set up our research center there, to really get that transition figured out and to work with the community, that's our main role. The subdivision there has 915 I believe, it's either 915 or 912, 900 plus lots. And the building is really rapid, I believe right now there are another 30 going up. So we're monitoring, we're understanding, we're using it as a vessel to communicate what we're learning about, what to avoid. There's a lot of rock substrate all around Kealakekua. As they continue to expand and improve some of the housing there, that will matter. We can talk about many places, but that is a hot spot in Miloli`i, no doubt. MS. GALIMBA: Well,being there and being part of that community, which you know, is always the other part of their science and then there's community, right. So I guess it's kind of a funny question,but I kind of want to ask if you were the emperor of the universe, what would you do there. But then we all know that—so I suppose if you were the emperor of the universe but realizing you have to work with community, what would you do? MR. ASNER: What I've done, I'm no emperor of anything, if anything I'm a steward of that place. So what I've done as a steward is I brought in some non-profits that advise on what you can do to get away from the current path by wastewater alternatives and innovations ai one. Right, they don't do the work to my knowledge, but they help guide alternatives. And I think they have a connection and other NGO's (Non-Governmental Organizations) like theirs have a connection to the for profit, the dotcoms that will sell different systems, right. I don't do that. So, I brought them in, and said, "Hey can you consult with us and help us understand what the options are,"their team has come up with some options. I'm not the one to judge the options, I just know what is going into the ocean. I want to see that disappear, based on whichever options are selected. So if I were the emperor, I would say let's choose an option and let's figure out a pathway to take a turn, pivot, and not do what we're doing down there. MS. GALIMBA: How has that been going; bringing that information to the community there at Miloli`i? MR. ASNER: I've done a lot of that. One on one with landowners. We did have the Vi the NGO, the non-profit come down and address the Homeowners Association. I guess that was about six or eight weeks ago, I forgot now. Page 6 CRCOC-12 August 1,2023 Mayor Roth happened to be there, so he heard it as well. And the response from landowners is yeah, let's do something,but the universal response is who's paying for it. So we all know that's why I think maybe the new office that I think is being set up. There's got to be a way to pull in external funding to make this easier on the landowners. I get that 100 percent, but we also need the landowners to be in the conversation, not to just allow it, but to be part of the solution. So we have to continue to socialize this problem. I'm glad that we're talking about this in such detail,because a lot of people don't know that there's cesspools and septic tanks. And then I think that 90 percent of people think the septic tank doesn't talk to anything, it's in itself. Actually, I had to learn that myself. A lot of this is educating, and people say oh wait I'm leaking into the ocean. Yes, you are, but in a pono, kind of aloha, kind of conversation rather than a confrontational one. So to answer your question, it's a careful, cared, kind of a malama driven process. One of the hard things about South Kona, and I think you know this too better than me, is that we have a lot of demographic change. A lot of newcomers, more languages; I met a whole new language the other day. And I said wow, how are we keeping up with this, not just translate the science,but literally translate this process to people that either don't have the background or don't even have the English background MS. GALIMBA: Thank you very much, and I yield. CHR. VILLEGAS: Thank you, Council Member Galimba. Council Member Kierkiewicz. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you, Chair. Aloha, Dr. Asner, great to see you. Thank you for translating these really complex science and data into something that's really, I think, understandable for my colleagues and members of the public,but also giving us ideas on how we can translate some of this information into actionable policy measures. And I know that we have updates to our General Plan coming up, so this is very timely. I have a few questions for you. So, one of your slides here talks about finding, strongly supporting the need for reintegrating land and sea in coastal management. And it sounds like there needs to be stronger collaboration across multiple jurisdictions. That's obvious right, but it's easier said than done. I'm really curious about your perspective on how we can achieve that. We're in government we have to work within these confines, but I'd love an outsider's perspective on how you think we can be working more collaboratively together. And if you believe there are tools that we possess; like PONC (Public Access, Open Space, and Natural Resources Preservation Commission) Stewardship opportunities; what tools do we have possessed that we can better leverage? Page 7 CRCOC-12 August 1,2023 MR. ASNER: The number one experience I have, and we could talk for hours on this,but the one that I realize the most at my stage and age and my career is that I see that everybody is working so hard. Everyone is so busy. The County is busy, the State is busy, State DOH (Department of Health) and DLNR (Department of Land and Natural Resources), they are all so busy. I have tried to convene across jurisdictions, and I have been shocked that how folks hadn't met. I don't want to call out names,but there is someone from DLNR, who's very much in charge of the reefs system and someone from the County who's very much in charge of Planning, met for the first time over me. And it was a long process to get the two, because they're both such busy people, into the same zoom call for an hour. And we had a wonderful enlightening open-minded discussion, right. And so this new office, OSCER(Office of Sustainability, Climate, Equity, and Resilience), is that how you're saying it, I didn't know how to say it. I know the major of terms in it. I feel like that is a critical role of that office is to convene across jurisdictions. And in fact, I would like to have some of our community inside that office helping with that process just scientifically, you know, to make sure that everybody has the same material, for example. So I kind of want to focus on that as my answer to you. But there are many other facets to this, but I feel like that's the number one. I hang out in a lot of communities, and I notice a lot of people want to say stuff isn't getting done,but a lot is getting done and everyone is overworked. So we need this third entity to get people to keep working,but work together across jurisdiction. In terms of mechanisms, I wrote a major story with some others about using the Federal Clean Water Act. I sent it to some of you,but it was really focused on sending it to Ramzi (Ramzi Mansour). I think it kind of goes like this because it needs interpretation, it needs time, it needs people. We're not saying, "Hey, use the Clean Water Act." We're saying, "Hey, here's a legal instrument that we should all benefit from, let's do it together." Maybe the new office—I'm putting a lot on the new office aren't I,because I just think it's so critical. So there are federal legal instruments to use, to build upon, and also to get funding via those same legal instruments. So, we're not taking advantage of it yet because we're all working in our jurisdictions, and we're all overworked. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you for that. I'm curious, you had a slide up about DLNR's educational and outreach efforts. How effective do you think that has been in helping to raise awareness about actions that folks need to take or adjustments they might need to make in their lifestyle? MR. ASNER: I'm a critic and a defender of that process, a constructive critic. Yeah, so they have not achieved efficacy yet. They are not there yet with the communication,but they are really improving, and it's under the current leadership that I'm seeing the improvements. But it's sort of the whole history of DLNR, I'm just a close collaborator so I don't want to say too much out of place. Page 8 CRCOC-12 August 1,2023 But I witnessed the fact that the history of DLNR has gotten away of its current potential, in some ways. And so the leadership now is really focusing on communities, it's really focusing on communication. I do monitor social media for that, I'm not really into it otherwise,but I do use it to understand what's being discussed. I see a lot of people backing DLNR; I go to the West Hawai`i Fishery Council meetings, I go to DLNR hearings, I do all that, and I see people being more collaborative than combative over time. And that's a lot different than when I was a youngster, you know, it's changed, let's just be blunt, be honest. But again, to me it's not fast enough,because with the grade of decline is kind of still exceeding our ability to respond to the decline. So, that's my critical mind speaking. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you, for your honesty. I'm curious about your work with innovative technologies and AI. I'm hosting an event to empower community members to use AI (Artificial Intelligence) because I think there's a lot that we can do to just accelerate the rate in which we develop products, and programs, and initiatives. So I know you're dabbling in it, and I'm wondering what role these technologies can play in sort of like sensing changes to the eco system and our environment, based on policy measures and actions we are taking. How is that going to help us to evaluate our work and know that the measures we've implemented are working or where we might need to have pivots. MR. ASNER: Wonderful, love the question. Two things, in my world it's not that new. We've been AI based for a decade and a half, but only in a research kind of way, right. So what it is done for research, and this is what it will do for you, it will radically accelerate the delivery of information and products from that information. Something that's digestible quickly, the speed part, so that you can be more pivotable and dynamic with the incoming information. That's in a research world, we do that now. We fly our aircraft, it used to take me six months, twelve months to get the information out, now I can see it the next day. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Incredible. MR. ASNER: Right. And so I don't have to ask the question, we have the nuts and bolts on how we would translate that, it's like a county unit that can do that. It's not a thousand years off, and it's not tens of millions of dollars, it's not. There are ways to use the AI; you see it all in the news, right. Everyone's using ChatGPT (an AI-powered language model) and all these things to save time. Those tools are just tools, they will not replace us,but they will accelerate our ability to response to these issues. And we don't have to wait five years to start really thinking about implementation, I think you have the brains here at UH. You have other brains all over the island that could get together and sort of get a straw package together as to what that might look like for you guys as a county. Page 9 CRCOC-12 August 1,2023 MS. KIERKIEWICZ: I mean I also think with the visual tools like Dolly and Midjourney,you could envision very bleak projections of what sea and land could look like because of failure to act. But you could also showcase and imagine what the future could look like if we take action now. So I think there are ways beyond the research stuff that you are doing, to illustrate visually like what could and couldn't happen based on what we do. MR. ASNER: Well said, yeah. There is a group of us,we're in the early years it's got a really exciting name, Decision Support Group. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Very catchy. MR. ASNER: Very catchy,but it's federally funded so it helps us. It is based here in Hilo,up on Nowelo Street at our main offices. And it's a group that's working with watershed modeling and moving towards an AI based capability, so that we can be more responsive. And critically to your point, a lot of the work going on now is to build scenario type capabilities into the decision support tools. So that you can say, "Hey if I build a subdivision here, what's the likely range of outcomes on the reef?" Is it nothing, is it low the medium? It won't be extremely resolute, but it would really help to kind of guide the thinking of is this a good place to do this or is this a better place. Because right now, I don't think it's based on some of the factors I discussed today. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: I agree. I just have a couple more questions, will your publication, your white paper, identify additional community led projects or policies that other communities around the globe have implemented to positively impact coral reef systems? I know you've highlighted a couple here, like what they're doing in Miloli`i. But I'm just curious if there's other darlings out there that we should be considering. MR. ASNER: Not in that report, but we have that material and we're happy to share it with you. We have a global coral reef program that has a network that allows us to bring in that information and learn from it here in Hawai`i. But actually, we're mostly focused on that network communicating among itself as well around the planet. So these are coral reef communities, so yes to all of that. The report coming out in a week is really focused on West Hawai`i and its history and what's going on,just highlighting the fact that these are issues that are very common worldwide. This is not just pointing out Hawaii, this is saying, "Hey, here's a case and point." MS. KIERKIEWICZ: That leads me to my final question, the impact of your work on global climate policies. You know, what does that look like, and take a moment to just humbly brag here? The significance of what you've built, and how it's going to be influent in impacting other island nations and decisions. It's a big deal Dr. Asner. Page 10 CRCOC-12 August 1,2023 MR. ASNER: It is, yeah, you're right. I'm laughing because it's such a big deal. It's like, it's overwhelming. I've been involved in climate science for 30 years. I've done pretty much every round; I did a tour of the U.S. State Department for four years, I've done quite the amount of work all over the planet. The one thing I can say is that I've always had my own knowledge and our platform of effort based out of Hawai`i, because we are kind of that example that everybody thinks about, and it's kind of bidirectional. One thing is, I've been in the most remote places on the planet, I mean really remote, and they know where Hawaii is. They may not know where New York City is, but darn if they don't know if they've heard of Hawai`i. So we have that sort of platform. And then the other part is that we this amazing environment that we all understand that has allowed us to test and scale a lot of the methods that I've discussed today. And we've had a lot of copycats that are out there, we want them to copy us out there. So this is a birth place of a lot of capabilities that I've described today, and it's being used all over the world. And one final thought is that when it comes to climate policy and sort of the direction that we're taking. Somehow Hawai`i, and I kind of know some of the story, but somehow Hawai`i has become to many people outside of the world. If they can't figure it out, we probably can figure it out because we're in the middle of the Pacific, we're kind of a semi closed system, we're trying to deal with our issues here, and we have the climate anomaly issue right on top of us. So I don't know if I'm answering your question, but this has been my experience working in the global climate community from Hawai`i, outward and back. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: It's really wonderful, look forward to reading your paper next week. Thank you, Council Member Kimball, for this presentation. Chair, I appreciate the time, I yield. CHR. VILLEGAS: Thank you, Council Member Kierkiewicz. Going to Kona to check in with you, Council Member Evans. MS. EVANS: Thank you. Yes, before I begin, I want to tell you the flowers that are on the dais are absolutely gorgeous. So whoever brought them, mahalo. CHR. VILLEGAS: Thank you to Council Member Kimball for bringing them from the sister city events this weekend. MS. EVANS: Yup they're gorgeous, thank you. Well good morning, Dr. Asner. Good to see you here and this has been a wonderful discussion. I have a couple of things I wanted to comment on, and maybe a question or two. One is I'm really grateful that you're creating jobs on our island. I've personally been a believer, and I think you know this about me. I've been a believer that this is how we expand the economy on the Big Island, by going to higher education, Research Page 11 CRCOC-12 August 1,2023 and Development, I've been a big proponent of the ocean economy, the blue economy, and the opportunities we have on the Big Island. So if you have a moment can you let the public know how many people you're employing with this effort? MR. ASNER: `Ako`ako`a is a new $25 million dollar effort that begins now, basically. The press release was a month ago. We have a range of positions that are filled. Some of my current staff are transitioning into the new program, but the rest are new hires. And then critically the hires aren't just to run that program, they are to create a new workforce. This thing I say, kamaaina workforce. When it comes to land, sea interactions and coral reefs themselves, we are lacking an entire niche of workforce. We have identified it in the university systems here. Doesn't matter what university you work for, we have identified it at DLNR, we have identified it federally, and so forth. There are people that don't want to go into marine science, I mean most people don't. There are a few people that want to go into marine science, I should say it that way, and then there are very few that want to become leaders in that. There are a lot of people that don't want to volunteer their time, or they want to, but they don't have the economic capability to do that. So why aren't we building a workforce that's paid. It's more of a vocational level that's focused on certificate level knowledge, and that would become the workforce now, which we need now in `Ako`ako`a, which is probably 25 to 50 positions right out of the gate in that realm, and then build it from there. And DAR(Division of Aquatic Resources) is screaming for it, that's the division at DLNR that's responsible for the reefs. I just don't know, the large non-profits we met with need the same workforce, it's not there. Even hotels, I've met with the King Kam (King Kamehameha Hotel) the other day, that was discussed. So a vocational certificate level program we're scoping now we need input, but we already know some of the major facets of it. People that are paid to work on these problems,but don't necessarily need a bachelor's degree to do it, it's critical. MS. EVANS: Critical. So how many currently, do you employ under your effort? MR. ASNER: In my unit I have about 103 people,but in this reef work, I sort of down to about 25 right now as we get ready to re-expand. We're just kind of changing colors right now as we go into `Ako`ako`a. MS. EVANS: Okay. So my next question, it didn't come up or maybe you kind of touched briefly on it but it's the ridge to reef discussion about what happens up slope will eventually end up in the water. And so is there—and I'm looking at again,potential for jobs on our island, the work. How do you coordinate it with the forest management that's going above kind of wastewater management. There's so much potential for jobs here. What kind of discussion has there been Page 12 CRCOC-12 August 1,2023 about the ridge to reef and how that all plays in? And are you and your colleagues at Arizona State University and University of Hawai`i, are you having those discussions about that? Thank you. MR. ASNER: Thank you for the question, and thanks for the reminder with the question. Yeah, to work for the future in terms of hydrology water quality reefs, you got start on land as well. I mean obviously, that's what we've been talking about. It's not just wastewater, it's also about water shed management, it's also about natural resource management on land. We have talked and understood a lot about our forest, and how vulnerable they've become. And also, the process of forest restoration. That entire restorative process is still also under—has too small of a workforce, it's relying in a positive way on volunteerism, but I find in my career, that's really hard to maintain. There's kind of come and go. Whereas, you know, a properly funded workforce that's not so senior. That it's overpriced. but has the right quality training and generates a large enough workforce that is malleable, and pivotable, and adaptable to changing parts of our landscape can really work these lands and try to do some restorative work. I think that's there, I see it in DOFAW(Division of Forestry and Wildlife), I see it in U.S. Forest Service, I see it in startups like tear formation. I see it all around, but I still don't see the connectedness of it yet. And that's what you're doing is telling me to keep pushing that, and to keep that narrative alive, and front and center,because I agree with it, it's critical. MS. EVANS: Is there any way we as the Council can support you, and possibly bring in this huge worldwide effort maybe a submit to our island? MR. ASNER: Yeah, that's great. So we've talked a bit about doing ridge reef I'd rather call it mauka and makai,but people don't get that out there too well. So, ridge to reef summit here let's focus, we had some really good environmental sustainability summits, those are good areas in growth, moments of growth and exchange. It's kind of preaching to itself I think, to be a slightly positively critical. I think we ought to pull in more people like a vocational kind of island building style to a meeting, where we bring in people that go wait, I didn't know jobs were available in this realm. And so Palamanui is critical, all the community college connections that we have, everybody is important here. I don't really see boundaries between universities, that's just to me a thing of the past. But we do have to do that kind of convening that you're describing, no doubt. And I'll be happy to sign up to help with that. MS. EVANS: Thank you, so much. Oh, this is great, and I yield. Thank you, Chair. CHR. VILLEGAS: Thank you, Council Member Evans. Council Member Kaneali`i—Kleinfelder. Page 13 CRCOC-12 August 1,2023 MR. KANEALII—KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Chair. Thank you very much for your presentation, Doctor. I have a few questions for you. Given your research, I'm thinking about your presentation and how it's going to affect us later on. I want to make sure I'm able to say these points again, with some authority. based on what you brought forward today. So, ocean warming versus land use impacts. That was interesting,because there's always been a climate change crisis, and we seem to have one crisis after another. We have an affordable housing crisis, okay. I can see where this is headed. I'm interested in this because from what I'm getting right now, you're saying that the impact that you're seeing is the most devastating, is actually based on the land use above the ocean. And what's happening this running off, it's going to run off into our ocean. Is that accurate? MR. ASNER: Yes, correct. The data, the science, the work that we've done shows that prior to the arrival of climate change in our ocean, we were already having a series of our reefs declining. And those declines were associated positively or clearly with land-based pollution. MR. KANEALI`I—KLEINFELDER: I was correct, okay. MR. ASNER: The climate issue has made it worse and what we see is kind of an amplification. Areas that are already polluted went belly up with the climate event in 2015. Areas that were much cleaner, some went belly up,but many did fine. You see, it's not just black and white but it's pretty close. MR. KANEALII—KLEINFELDER: No,yeah, that's what I got from your presentation. That was interesting. MR. ASNER: That is why it's such a big report coming out, the clarity of it. MR. KANEALII—KLEINFELDER: Thank you. The geography of our island is very interesting. So in other places where they have extreme weather events and you have a lot of rainfall, usually what follows is a massive brown water warning, you know, don't go into the ocean. And I've seen this across the world,but do we have the same thing here, as we have this major rain fall events? MR. ASNER: Yes, we do. What I found and what the signs shows is that areas that have certain types of development in those areas that have the major rain fall events, it's kind of a compounding effect. We can liberate or how do you say it, the sediment becomes more mobile during or after development in the area of development, and we can get a brown water event that's exacerbated with the same heavy rainfall. How do say that? Let me try that again, if it was a natural landscape and you had heavy rainfall; the system has already worked itself out for however long. With development, it can generate a much more vulnerable landscape that generates brown water moving in. We saw it this past January and Page 14 CRCOC-12 August 1,2023 February. I was actually in the aircraft and our aircraft is a laboratory with big screens in the back. I'll take you on board someday when you're ready and you can see it. Everyone's invited. You can see the data coming in, and I'm in the back in the lab and I said something is not right here. So I walked up to the cockpit and looked down, and there was a huge brown water event. The first thing I did was text the County and DOH (Department of Health), and they just didn't know that was happening right there. But it's an area that had been disturbed recently on land by humans, then they did have a big rainfall event that's going to happen. But now that soil is ready to go and liberated out into the reef. And I got to tell you, it was pretty bad what we found in the reef later. Rough, yeah, and I'm pretty calloused. I was like wow; we are still having these issues. So, it gets pretty raw sometimes when you see it the next day in the water. Land the airplane, take the ship out, and go see what happened and the reef was covered in mud. MR. KANEALI`I—KLEINFELDER: Okay, that is very helpful. Sorry, I'm thinking about what you said. It's very helpful I think given direction of the county, and what's going on in the world, and where the state is headed right now. So this is very timely and extremely helpful for us as decision makers. MR. ASNER: And we're here to support you guys. I really am the kind of program that is all about the solution pathway. And so, science will be here to help. MR. KANEALI`I—KLEINFELDER: Thank you. So you said it was hard to explain the mauka to makai to some people, because they don't get it. So ridge to reef, ocean to mountain, whatever you want to say. But what caught my attention during your presentation was, and I've heard this before from other folks in agriculture and different sectors are the want or not maybe the want, maybe a need. A need to move to nonnalizing envision thinking, because you've touched on it about three or four times that we already knew this. We know the information, it's been thought for decades, centuries, maybe more than that, okay, but we pushed it aside because we need to do other things. And we forgot everything that was taught to us before. And there's a reason why it was taught, not so much just good information, but the reasoning behind it helps this kind of situation not happen. MR. ASNER: Yes. This ahupua`a, mauka makai knowledge, I'm still haumana of the entire process, I will for the rest of my life, right. So I'm learning constantly from our kupuna and anyone who has that cultural knowledge, and is carrying it forward, and telling us about the past. But the one thing that's very real is that way of managing land to sea generated resilience for centuries, and centuries, and centuries. And yes, there were bad years, the anthropologist shows there were crashed years. Agriculturally there were abundant years, but the Page 15 CRCOC-12 August 1,2023 average was resilience, and that's why I'm such a strong backer of it as a scientist. What scientist on earth wouldn't look at that record and say, well that's the record. Not this western new one that we brought. We need some of that now, especially with the climate change issue, we need some of the western science. But that science, what my friends in Miloli`i call it, kanaka science. They tell me that we already knew all that, and I said"Yeah, uncle I got you." We're putting new numbers to some of this to translate to understand to adapt. So there's nothing new in that story, you're right, it was a gift to me. MR. KANEALI`I—KLEINFELDER: So with that said. I'm thinking about how this moves out to the world, if people are so aware of Hawai`i and where it is, and they know it more than what maybe New York is and other places in the world, then use that to make us the teaching tools. So that when you say mauka to makai, you're teaching and forcing them to understand what that means, because that just helps this gain movement in my eyes. MR. ASNER: Our minds are aligned, that's right. Yeah,New York City is an interesting case. They are still considered the poster child for something that was done right; they protected the Catskills watershed. I've never been there. MR. KANEALI`I—KLEINFELDER: Have you seen their ocean? MR. ASNER: Well, the ocean is another story, but at least their water supply into their city, there's this story that's been used in every textbook now, that the mountains mauka of New York City that supplies their main water source were protected in a way that generate lots of eco system service and resource up there that made that water supply more resilient over time. And you're right, I don't know what they're doing makai of their city, don't ask me. MR. KANEALI`I—KLEINFELDER: It's horrible. MR. ASNER: Yeah. MR. KANEALI`I—KLEINFELDER: I don't see people swimming in their oceans. MR. ASNER: Right. But my point is that there aren't many, if that's our poster child of a good thing,New York, why are they the only ones with a textbook story. We should actually have most of those stories here,but we got to work together to generate more of that. No doubt, more of those good stories. And there are a lot of people working on that. So, I'm pretty optimistic even in the time of extreme challenge. MR. KANEALI`I—KLEINFELDER: Thank you very much, Doctor. I appreciate your time this morning, and look forward to seeing where this heads. Page 16 CRCOC-12 August 1,2023 MR. ASNER: Mahalo. MR. KANEALI`I—KLEINFELDER: I yield, Chair. CHR. VILLEGAS: Thank you, Council Member Kaneali`i—Kleinfelder. Council Member Kagiwada. MS. KAGIWADA: Thank you, Chair. And thank you, Dr. Asner, for being here and sharing your mana`o with us and all your research. Just a quick question. I've currently been working with our Administration and our community groups and UH to try find some funding to do a comprehensive watershed plan for Hilo Bay. So one question I have is it seems to me a lot of what you're talking about, specifically around the reefs, is very targeted to what is immediately adjacent to what's going on to these reefs. So my question is, is there an effect when we do something on this side of the island that may affect those reefs? I mean, we have lots of reasons to work on our watershed over here. But I'm just wondering are the reefs affected at all or even the next-door neighborhood or community; or is it really that tight and specific around, and what we should focus on if we're specifically looking at reef health? MR. ASNER: Great question, love the question. We should do a class together on this. One thing I know, we have another set of studies that show the connectedness of reefs laterally along the shoreline, and they're much more connected than western science knew. Again, kupuna knew but we're learning that genetically there's strong connections laterally along a lot of our coastlines, especially with near shore currents and a lot of other related matters. So kind of a no brainer,but you say okay, now we see that kind of activity. If we treat this watershed and do something wrong on this watershed, or we just kind of come up with the same problem. And the answer is generally yes,but there are a lot of contextual issues here that again, we need to look at these watersheds with the capability that we have now in their context, right. This watershed or the Hilo watershed is pretty wet. So yeah, you got to go high it's not just costal, right. Other watersheds are pretty dry and if they're rock dominated like the ones we were talking about in South Kona, some of those, then we don't have to look so mauka. At least not in this current sort of trying to figure out the most pressing issues, right, but you have quite a watershed here. And I do know the UH crowd and I do know some real talent there. So yeah, I'm glad that they're there and I'm here to help too, wherever I can. MS. KAGIWADA: Great, well with that in mind, can you resay your catchy organization again, that's working on watershed. What was the name of it again? MR. ASNER: `Ako`ako`a. Page 17 CRCOC-12 August 1,2023 MS. KAGIWADA: No, the decision something group. MR. ASNER: Decision support group. I bobbled it because I couldn't even remember. So yeah, it's a group that's convened by federal agencies here on Nowelo Street. U.S. Forest Service is playing a front and center row. That's a wonderful example,by the way. The U.S. Forest Service is not just doing forest, they're thinking about water and they're thinking about reefs, we actually have reef people in the room. At least at the science level there is more and more communication, it shows you it can be done, right. So yeah, that's right here and we can surely meet and discuss that when you're ready. MS. KAGIWADA: Great. Well hopefully we get this funding, and we'll be reaching out to you. MR. ASNER: Oh, yeah. MS. KAGIWADA: Okay, thank you so much. I yield. CHR. VILLEGAS: Thank you, Council Member. Council Member, Kimball. MS. KIMBALL: Thank you. Thank you again, Dr. Asner, for being here. I'm sure like Council Member Kagiwada, all of you went I want that decision support tool. So we are planning on bringing the decision support team, either in September or October at our Hilo meeting. So we will be having a presentation by them, sharing the tools that they have for the three watershed areas that they've focused on already. So you can look forward to that. Thank you Chair, I yield. CHR. VILLEGAS: Thank you, Council Member Kimball, anything from anyone else? Alright, with that I'll just wrap up with a couple of my thoughts. First off, I'm going to say wow, thank you so much for being here. I was actually brought to tears with your story of witnessing the brown water occurrences. I don't know that I've had the opportunity, the honor, or privilege to get to know you personally yet,but I do hope that moving forward we can connect. I would love to see the facility at NELHA (Natural Energy Laboratory of Hawai`i Authority) and ride in that plane. Something that stood out to me first off is your way of saying that you are living your life in service to your community, and that is an exemplification of servant leadership. And that community in South Kona, it speaks volumes as to why you have been embraced and made part of that `Ghana, and that there hasn't been this discrepancy or those challenges of western versus cultural. And I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for that. It is unique and unfortunately, it's not as prevalent,but from my manini work with Kohanaiki `Ghana, and the PASH (Public Access Shoreline Hawai`i) decision, and what not. And the leadership of Angel Pilago (former Council Member), his perpetual message was always that Page 18 CRCOC-12 August 1,2023 culture is where we will find the legal standing in order to make the changes. But we also need science in order to have those facts to back it up, because we have to dance both sides of those. But your energy, and intentionality of stewardship, and use of that terminology even being haumana is refreshing and inspiring. As well as your validation of the undeniable correlation between the ways that humans are behaving on land and how it is negatively impacting our coral reef eco systems. Specific to West Hawai`i, which is my home and where I carry this responsibility and this privilege,but also this burden of trying to care for and advocate for. Congratulations on the publication of these priceless works that are going to benefit not only us and me, selfishly on the west side,but the world at large. I really appreciate your real just—we are the microcosms of the world at large, so we have the opportunity and the responsibility to be the model and exemplify the solutions to the challenges that we face as a global society. And those solutions reside in the wisdom of our host culture. I see the power of the potential for connecting the humans responsible for mitigating these issues, and that is such a powerful thing that you're doing. Sometimes I wonder about my validity and purpose and if I'm being effective,but a good day is when I can just connect with the right people and get those conversations to happen. So there's opportunity for moving things forward and to actually do the work, right. We constantly hear about the economic value of our reefs. I love that, that wasn't necessarily a part of this, that wasn't a part of why. But you also—the humor as you pointed out with the growth of the number of houses in Miloli`i, and saying well that would be a great graph if you were working on housing. But when we're looking at reef, ecosystem,health, and regenerative capacities, it is not based on our model of wastewater management. And as Kona is inundated with demands for housing, it's imperative that we remember this reverse relationship between those graphs. Also, you know, talking about the forestry and the connection of—I mean obviously what happens there happens there, but I really appreciated the question about the connection between our reefs communicating and different watersheds. And it just reminds me of some amazing videos I've seen recently about the science of the connection of trees and how they talk to one another, and the mycelium (a root-like structure of a fungus) and the mushrooms that are what connect them. I mean, the earth is an organism right, she is whole in and of herself. And her ecosystem can sustain the cycles through her wisdom and capacity for regeneration. However, it's our impacts that sabotage that fragile balance and we are causing this, so we are responsible for changing our behaviors. And everything that you've shared here today, I mean, I think I want to work in that. I want to figure out how to do that but science, taking calculus, not my jam. But vocational, and I think of our young people who aren't going to go away to college. I don't even know if I want them to anymore,because to graduate with a $100,000 debt, and so your strapped to working in a linear economic corporate Page 19 CRCOC-12 August 1,2023 mentality of unsustainable, financially driven profit margins as opposed to vocationally being able to interact with your ecosystems and the species native to this place, and supporting a regenerative model and a circular economy. I mean, you obviously inspired me today. So thank you for listening to my humble and non-expertise,but just passion for everything that you're doing. And I'm deeply grateful to Council Member Kimball and thank you for all that you do. MR. ASNER: I have nothing to say,but mahalo. That's just amazing, I can't top that. Mahalo for your thoughts and sharing, that inspires me back. Definitely worth being here today, thank you. CHR. VILLEGAS: Oh, good. Thank you so much, appreciate you. With that, we'll take the vote to close file on Communication 372. All those in favor? Vote on Comm. 372: The motion to close file on Comm. 372 was carried (Filed) by the following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Evans, Galimba, Inaba, Kagiwada, Kaneali`i—Kleinfelder, Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Lee Loy, and Chair Villegas—9. Noes: None. Absent: None. Excused: None. Page 20 CRCOC-12 August 1,2023 ADJOURN- There being no further business, at 10:20 a.m., Ms. Kierkiewicz moved to MENT: adjourn the meeting. Seconded by Ms. Lee Loy and carried by the following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Evans, Galimba, Inaba, Kagiwada, Kaneali`i—Kleinfelder, Kierkiewicz, Kimball, Lee Loy, and Chair Villegas—9. Noes: None. Absent: None. Excused: None. CHR. VILLEGAS: Meeting is adjourned. Thank you. Approved: ItkiAa5 s. Rebecca Villegas, Chair (Date) Communications, Reports, and Council Oversight Committee RV/rk Page 21