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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMIN PCPLUD 2024/03/05 (2022-2024)Policy Committee on Planning, Land Use, and Development 12th Session Hawaii County Building 25 Aupuni Street Hilo, Hawaii March 5, 2024 CALL TO The regular meeting of the Policy Committee on Planning, Land Use, and ORDER: Development was called to order at 2:06 p.m., in the Council Chambers, Hilo, by Ms. Ashley L. Kierkiewicz, Chair. ROLL CALL Present: Ms. Ashley L. Kierkiewicz, Chair Mr. Holeka Goro Inaba, Vice Chair Ms. Cindy Evans, Member Ms. Michelle M. Galimba, Member Ms. Jenn Kagiwada, Member Mr. Matt Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder, Member Ms. Heather L. Kimball, Member Ms. Rebecca Villegas, Member (via videoconference from Kona) Absent & Excused: Ms. Susan L. K. Lee Loy, Member STATEMENTS FROM THE PUBLIC ON AGENDA ITEMS Change Order of Business: BILLS FOR ORINANCES The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, Statements from the Public on Agenda Items. The following individual registered to speak in support of Bill 125 (Comm. 679), and came forward when called by the Chair: Randy Golden. CHR. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you. If we could start with Bill 134. As directed by the Chair and with no objection from the Committee Members, the following item was taken out of order: The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, Bills for Ordinances. PCPLUD-12 March 5, 2024 Bill 134: AMENDS CHAPTER 25, ARTICLE 2, SECTION 25-2-42 OF THE HAWAI`I COUNTY CODE 1983 (2016 EDITION, AS AMENDED), RELATING TO AMENDMENTS INITIATED BY PROPERTY OWNERS AND OTHER PERSONS Adds a provision requiring the Planning Director to submit a subject area building entitlement report to the applicable planning commission and the County Council for each change of zoning district application. The report would identify permits, approvals, or other lawful entitlements allowing for the construction of a building or buildings on any parcel of land within a quarter -mile radius of the parcel for which the change of zoning district is sought. Reference: Comm.741 Intr. by: Mr. Inaba and Ms. Evans Motion to Refer: Mr. Inaba moved to refer Bill 134 to the Planning Director and Planning Commissions. Seconded by Ms. Evans. CHR. KIERKIEWICZ: I also just want to note to my colleagues here that Communication 741.3, notes that our Planning Director is unavailable to join us for today's committee discussion for the subsequent committee discussion on March 19d' and is requesting that we postpone any further action on this measure till April 2nd. That being said, I'm going to turn it over to Vice Chair Inaba to introduce this measure. MR. INABA: Thank you, Chair. Yes, so this is a bill that Council Member Evans and I have put together, and essentially, it's to provide both the Commission and the Council with the most comprehensive information possible when we're making decisions on change of zone ordinances. And yes, to address the director's request, we will be requesting a postponement at the end of the discussion today but wanted to at least have our preliminary discussion and then we can circle back when the director is able to join us in early April. But yes, so essentially, what this bill is asking is that when a change of zone ordinance or an application is submitted to the Planning Commissions or to the Council, we are able to see any properties within a quarter mile who haven't, we don't use the term entitlements but in this case, entitlements to build with no further requests, for example, change of zone or subdivision, anything like that and that we get that information. And essentially, it's to make sure that we're not putting any kind of extra stress or issues on the communities that we're making these decisions for. So, for example, if a property within a quarter mile of an application property could potentially build 50 homes tomorrow, we found it important for the commission and that Council to know that so that we are able to make the best decision and if conditions need to be amended on a previous ordinance or on the Page 2 PCPLUD-12 March 5, 2024 ordinance before the Council at that time, that can be done prior to passing a change of zone ordinance. So, pretty straightforward. We do have one amendment which we would like to take up at this time. Motion to Amend: Mr. Inaba moved to amend Bill 134 with the contents of Comm. 741.2. Seconded by Ms. Evans. CHR. KIERKIEWICZ: Council Member Inaba. MR. INABA: Yes, thank you. We're just changing this is something that we went back and forth with in drafting, and we accidentally submitted the wrong version. So, what this is saying is changing the 1,320 feet to one quarter mile, just so that when the everyday person reads our County Code, they can think a quarter mile. I, myself, wasn't aware that the translation to feet was 1,320. So, pretty straightforward. That's the only change here. So, I ask for your support. Mahalo. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you. Council Member Evans. MS. EVANS: Yeah. And for further clarification, we took out the language about describing the permit approval entitlement, whatever, and I think we've covered it in the first part of the they're just reporting on identifying the buildings including existing buildings that are legally permitted to be constructed and that's the key part on the surrounding properties within the quarter of a mile. Yeah. Thank you. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you. Anyone else on the amendment? Council Member Galimba. MS. GALIMBA: So, I get that this is sort of a translation from, you know, terminology. I did have something to talk about the number of feet involved. So, I just wanted to sort of be consistent. If we are just changing the terminology, I'm fine with that. But I also didn't want to sort of preclude being able to discuss that part of the bill because we changed it. I wouldn't want potentially to have an amendment of the number of feet, you see what I'm saying? So, I just need to kind of check on that before. So, we're just changing the terminology from 1,320 to quarter mile, which is exactly the same, but I did want to have a conversation about the number of feet. So, is it okay to vote for this amendment and then go back and change, okay. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: I will allow it. MS. GALIMBA: Thank you. Okay. Page 3 PCPLUD-12 March 5, 2024 CHR. KIERKIEWICZ: There is a motion on the floor to amend Bill 134, all those in favor, please say "aye." Vote on Motion The motion to amend Bill 134 with the contents of to Amend: Comm. 741.2 was carried by the following voice vote: (Approved) Ayes: Committee Members Evan, Galimba, Inaba, Kagiwada, Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder, Kimball, Villegas, and Chair Kierkiewicz — 8. Noes: None. Absent: Committee Member Lee Loy— 1. Excused: None. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: Council Member Inaba. MR. INABA: Thank you. So, back to Bill 134, as amended, happy to have discussion on how far we're going to take this out but essentially, the intention of the bill is to provide us with the best and most information in making decisions on these change of zone ordinances. And I do believe that there is some software now that could provide us this modeling on what a full buildout would look like based on all current approvals. This isn't a discussion that we've had with Planning yet, so it would be a matter for them to kind of recognize and identify when a realistic timeframe for implementing this would be. But we're not necessarily in a rush to get it passed. We just want to make sure that it's the best information that we would like to see as a Council today, and that we can give the Planning Department some time to provide that. And in some discussion with members of the Planning Department, even perhaps integrating information and data from Real Property Tax, being that they have a lot of information; and DPW (Department of Public Works) Building Division as well. So, figuring out what the best way for implementation of this bill would be still needs to be ironed out. But just wanted to introduce it today and then Council Member Evans, if you had anything to add. Thank you, Chair. MS. EVANS: I really like the idea, especially now when we're talking about cesspools and sewage treatment plants and roads and whatever. I think understanding what's going on in the immediate area will make us even much more informed when we're asking for some of these changes. And hopefully, the Planning Commission also, I don't know how this plays with that, but it'd be nice if the Planning Commission got that too. Thank you. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you. Anyone on the main motion? Council Member Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, Chair. Looking at this Page 4 PCPLUD-12 March 5, 2024 Section 25-2-42, and this is amending Section C, but I was looking at Section A, it looks very similar and, you know, I'm just doing a precursory scan of this. So, the difference between A and C is what my question is. But also, a little bit more past that is what drove the legislation? What issue was being seen that precluded this change, or that the requirement that a director should prepare a report identifying the structures to be built or that exist within a quarter mile of the boundary? That's kind of my question. That's where I'm floating right now. CHR. KIERKIEWICZ: Council Member Inaba, please respond. MR. INABA: Yes. The intention, like I said, was to really get an understanding of what potential buildout could be tomorrow in a neighborhood. So, if a property right next door could build ten houses on a one -lane road, and you're coming before us as an applicant for a rezone that could allow ten homes on your property, there could be a potential of 20 new lots or 20 new homes on a street. So, we'd want to know what could be developed on surrounding properties so that we don't have any kind of excessive impact on infrastructure in the neighborhood as it exists. So, it's really just —we don't need to know what is there. This bill is saying what could be there in addition to what's already there, or based on the zoning and the permitting uses, what could be there. So, if it's five homes, then the report would identify that five structures or five dwelling units could be built. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. Thank you. So, I'll try summarize then. So, the bill would require the director to compile a report of any proposed buildings, I think, and existing buildings, no? MR. INABA: Only buildings that could be built with no further approvals, like subdivisions or change of zone. If something is there already, it's existing. We don't need to know that it's there because it physically exists. We're trying to see what potential buildout could be, and that's why we're asking for what that initial language says. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. Got you. So, excluding existing buildings. But I read that as including. My problem. But then, that are legally permitted to be constructed on surrounding properties. So, not that they've been permitted but that that parcel next door could be built out to have 10 properties? MR. INABA: Correct. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: And if someone's coming in for a change of zoning then that parcel next to them that doesn't have anything on it now, but has already been through the process to have those buildings built, or is in the permitting phases, have to have a report back to us ultimately and the Planning Commission so that everyone's aware of what the future buildout will be? Page 5 PCPLUD-12 March 5, 2024 MR. INABA: Yes. You explained it better than I did. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Only because you explained it to me and then my brain could catch up. Okay. And the difference between A and C? Because A is very similar. One is talking about the district classification and then one is a change of zoning district, but they're both by property owner. So, just trying to MR. INABA: Could you clarify which sections again you're talking about? MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: This is Section 25-2-42, your amendment is for Section C, but then Section A these all fall under amendments initiated by property owners and other persons. So, there's an A, B, C, D, and then we change sections. MR. INABA: Section A is speaking specifically to the form on which the application is submitted. So, Section A tells what information needs to be included on the form to the department for them to process the request, whereas Section C that we're in right now talks about the process of how it's initiated and whether the director submits a positive or negative recommendation and going on to the commissions. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. MR. INABA: So, one is just application form, and the other is the process. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. So, in Section A, I know it's not in this bill but it's interesting because A requires that, that form have a plot plan of the property drawn to scale with all existing and proposed structures shown there. Is that the same information that would loop back in this report or is that the other parcels? CHR. KIERKIEWICZ: So, what you're asking, Council Member Kaneali`i- Kleinfelder, that particular plot plan is for the specific property where a request is being made for a rezone or like a time extension. What is being proposed here is, outside of that property, adjacent properties, what's going on there? What is going on outside of that particular property so that we know how that fits into the larger planned community. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Got it. Okay. So, A is more specific to what's being changed— CHR KIERKIEWICZ: What is being requested for the property. Page 6 PCPLUD-12 March 5, 2024 MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: And this is more looking at the future of whole area, parcels, adjoining? CHR. KIERKIEWICZ: Of that whole particular area, yes. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Got it. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: Yes. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Got it. Beautiful. Thank you. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: And I believe Section C is related to what we require the Planning Director and department to do as they come up with their recommendation on the application. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Got it. Okay. Beautiful. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: Great questions. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Well, I like the bill. I'll be supporting it, understanding we're postponing today. Okay. Thank you. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you. Any other questions? Council Member Galimba. MS. GALIMBA: Thank you. So, I guess I had a sort of a maybe somewhat similar question to Council Member Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder, and it is basically, I'm not sure what the difference would be or maybe you can explain it to me, what the difference between what you're asking for and just a map of the current zoning? Because the current zoning really does tell you what can be built on a particular property. Can you explain the difference for me? MR. INABA: Sure. So, when we get rezoning bills right now, we do see a map that shows the surrounding zoning, and yes, we can then assume what we can know what could be built there. But we don't know what exists versus what could be built. So, that's what this Bill 134 is doing. It tells us if there hasn't been buildout, what that buildout could be so that we know, because right now if everybody just has one house on their property and they could have two houses, we should be aware of that additional potential for buildout when we make a decision on the change of zone application before us. MS. GALIMBA: So, the information would be both, what is there and what could be there, is that what you're asking for, yes? Page 7 PCPLUD-12 March 5, 2024 MR. INABA: It excludes existing structures because we don't need to know again, what is already there. The impacts of what's there is already happening. We want to know if there was permitted building to occur today, what would those impacts potentially be. So, it's really what could be because what already is has it's impacts on the infrastructure already. So, we don't necessarily need to know that. If that's something that this Council wants to know, like, you know, this is what exists, and this is what the buildout could be, we could definitely add that in. Just the intention or why we put it this way was, like I said, we already know what existing structures impacts are on infrastructure. So, we just want to know what more could be added, and that it's saying what hasn't yet been built. MS. GALIMBA: Okay. Yeah, I mean I could definitely see where this information would be useful. And I think it's very simply, which is nice legislation, but I think the problem is that it probably needs to be a little bit more complex because this situation would be very different say for a big development, you would want to know that. Whereas, if it's just grandma subdividing her two acres, you don't really need to know like what is happening within a quarter mile, especially if it's an urban area where this could literally be hundreds of lots. So, I do think that that idea has merit for those kinds of situations when we're looking at big developments potentially coming in, then that would be very useful but then I think it could be definitely overkill and not good use of our folk's time if we're looking at a very small change of zone in an urban area. Yeah, how to draft that is going to be kind of interesting. But anyway, those are my thoughts. CHR. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you. Council Member Kagiwada. MS. KAGIWADA: Thank you. Yeah, I'm really intrigued by this idea. I'll be really interested to hear what the Planning Department has to say about their time and their ability to do this. Like you said, we need the software if it can be done fairly easily, I think that's one thing. If it's going to be really laborious and strain on their already kind of challenged staffing, I think that would be different. But I'm very intrigued and thank you for bringing this forward. I think it's really a good discussion to have. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you. Anyone else? Council Member Evans. MS. EVANS: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I just wanted to point out that on ag land, for example, you can go in for a variance and build a church right next to your farm. So I think in some ways, knowing what has been approved next can really give us some insight as to what's really going on in the neighborhood. But I do agree that we should have that conversation with the Planning Department and see how difficult or how easy it might be. Maybe they sort things by TMK's (Tax Map Keys), and maybe it's just a TMK search, you know, it'd be good to know what their technology is and how they retrieve information. But clearly, you now, sometimes we approve things either through special use permits or Page 8 PCPLUD-12 March 5, 2024 variances that have a huge impact on an area, and then you have something else coming in and you don't even know, you know, that this is happening next door. So, I think there's some value in that transparency in our decision. But with that, you know, I yield. Thank you. CHR. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you. Council Member Kimball. MS. KIMBALL: Yeah, just wanted to make a quick note on that technology piece. I hope you guys all remember Gina McGuire who came in and spoke to us with Christian about Christian's decision support tools. She has actually already created a layer that basically demonstrates the entitlements that exist in all of the various areas. I had a chance to kind of look at a preview of it. There were some constraints that she didn't have properly in place, so I connected her with April (Surprenant) to kind of work on that a little bit. So, just want to make sure that this is clear it's not a County or Planning Department pieces offer, but something that somebody was already on their own motion making. So, I've actually connected her with Vice Chair Inaba via email just now so maybe next time she can bring that to show what they have already available. Thank you. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: Excellent. Council Member Inaba. MR. INABA: Yeah, just one fast comment. The two big pieces I feel like we are really going to have to iron out and work together with the Planning Department is what is the real distance we want to know, and perhaps a trigger for the number of structures, right? If it's just one additional structure on each property, is that going to be substantial enough for all of this work or is it that a parcel has potential for five structures and, you know, like those are the conversations I think that we can have to make it worthwhile for the department and for our own decision making along with the commissions. So, thank you everybody and probably plan to have this in committee a couple more times even after the next time so we can really get it to a good place before sending it to the commissions since it's pretty straightforward and short. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you. Council Member Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: I just have kind of an FYI (For You Information) to add. So, I remember when I first came into the Council, somewhere in that first term, there was a bill advances that requires any changes to Chapter 25 be heard by the Commission. And I'm saying that to the newer Council Members because I remember that bill and now I'm seeing the implications of it. It lengthens the time of any bill that we do to adjust Chapter 25. It's in our Charter? CHR KIERKIEWICZ: It's a Code. Page 9 PCPLUD-12 March 5, 2024 MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: What is it, Jon? I remembered it because I remember we talked about it. If it wasn't a bill, what was it then? MR. HENRICKS: Probably talking about Environmental Management Commission and bills that amended Chapter 20-21. But it's in the County Code and the Charter, but it's been there for a long time. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: This requirement to be heard at the Commissions? CHR. KIERKIEWICZ: Yes. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: For any Chapter 25 that's always been there? MR. HENRICKS: Not always. Always is a long time. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: But since we've been on the Council it's been there. think you're thinking about when we needed to send things to Environmental Management Commission for review. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Was that the one? CHR KIERKIEWICZ: That was a new thing. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Okay. Never mind. I retract my last statement and I apologize. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: We're going to strike that from the record. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Yeah, strike that from the record. I gotta go back and look though, I swear it's in there. Okay, never mind. Thank you, Jon. Thank you. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you both for putting this forward. I do look forward to the discussion with the Planning Department. I think more information is always good information. I think when we can see the caring capacity of an area and the impact of a new proposed project, I think it's great to know that information. But I also would like to know, in the situations where there's a rezone request, is that request conducive to the area? So, I think this would be a really great conversation that we'll be having with Planning in the next, about a month from now, I think it is. Okay. And they will be listening to this discussion and planning accordingly. Page 10 PCPLUD-12 March 5, 2024 One of the things that I am hoping that they're able to share with us is any sort of technological or personnel resource requirements they have to make sure they're able to effectively execute what is being asked here. Okay, with that being said, would you like to make a postponement, Council Member Inaba? Vote on Motion Mr. Inaba moved to postpone Bill 134, as amended to to Postpone: Draft 2, to April 2, 2024. Seconded by Ms. Kimball and (Approved) carried by the following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Evan, Galimba, Inaba, Kagiwada, Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder, Kimball, Villegas, and Chair Kierkiewicz — 8. Noes: None. Absent: Committee Member Lee Loy— 1. Excused: None. CHR. KIERKIEWICZ: Mr. Clerk, Bill 125 please, when you're ready. Return to Order The Chair director the Committee to return to the order of business. of Rn�ine�� STATEMENTS The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, FROM THE Statements from the Public on Bill 125. PUBLIC ON Bill 125: The following individual registered to speak in opposition of Bill 125 (Comm. 679), and came forward when called by the Chair: Raymond Pajek. BILLS FOR The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, ORDINANCES: Bills for Ordinances. Bill 125: AMENDS CHAPTER 6 OF THE HAWAI`I COUNTY CODE 1983 (2016 EDITION, AS AMENDED), BY ADDING A NEW ARTICLE RELATING TO COMMERCIAL BICYCLE TOURS Seeks to prohibit the operation of commercial bicycle tours on a portion of Kohala Mountain Road and a portion of the Akoni Pule Highway. Reference: Comm.679 Intr. by: Ms. Evans Postponed: January 23 and February 7, 2024 (Note: There is a motion by Ms. Evans, seconded by Ms. Villegas, to recommend passage of Bill 125 on first reading.) Page 11 PCPLUD-12 March 5, 2024 CHR. KIERKIEWICZ: Council Member Evans, there's an active motion on the floor. Motion to Amend: Ms. Evans moved to amend Bill 125 with the contents of Comm. 679.44. Seconded by Mr. Inaba. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: Council Member Evans. MS. EVANS: Thank you. Thank you. So, based on our last discussion and having a conversation with our Police Chief about how do you regulate and enforce something like this, I have come up with this new amendment, and just to make it easier to read, you'll see on the front part of it is the Ramseyer format which shows where I deleted and added. And then Exhibit A is how it will read and if it's passed, how it will read. So, just maybe to make it, I hope, easier to follow. It's a very short bill. There's not much to it, but it does have a significant impact and what it does is it's pointing out a couple roads on the island that we believe are not safe for commercial bicycle tours. One of the things that the Hawaii State Legislature did is under Chapter 46, gave the right to the counties to regulate commercial bicycle tours. I want to make it really clear to anybody that's watching this, is bicycles have a right to be on any roadway or on any highway that we have, and this is not what we're talking about. We're talking about regulating a commercial bicycle tour. And we tried to define it and I took at heart what Member Kagiwada said and some of her questioning and want to make sure that what we're saying is we have two roads or two sections of roads that we believe are unsafe for tour groups. But I think more importantly is what it says is, if one is okay. If a policeman pulled you over and it was a commercial bicycle tour, they would talk to them and say, you know, "Is this a tour? Is it official bicycle tour business, and can you tell me where you're going and, you know, what are you doing?" And then if it's violating this law, then they would cite them like a traffic violation. It would cite them for the first offense of not more than $500. If they get pulled over a second time within one year of the date of the first offense, then they would be fined not less than $1,000 per bicycle. When I talked to one of the tour bicycle groups that does this, he would say if they understood that these two areas were off limits then they would just honor that. And he felt, you know, okay, you know, I mean there's places all around areas across the U.S. (United States) sometimes when you have a dangerous area, you just off limits it to tour groups. Now we can argue if people coming here on vacation wanting to do a tour understand our highways, understand the nature of the road they're driving on, we can get in all kinds of things about should they be qualified or not qualified to be on the tour group, but I want everybody to know I Page 12 PCPLUD-12 March 5, 2024 do not want to get into the nitty gritty detail of how do we manage commercial bicycle tour businesses. I know that Member Lee Loy brought that up, but if you go that route, then you get into the detail of do they wear helmets? They can't be, you know, shorter than four feet, they have to be over the age of 15. I mean you can get into all the nitty gritty details of permitting and managing commercial bicycle tours, which other people do. Other jurisdictions get into the whole entire detail of regulating commercial bicycle tours and I didn't want to go down that route, but I wanted to do is, because I understand those roads, I've been on those roads. I just believe commercial bicycle tours in those two areas, we should limit it. And I think, just like we do to me, when I think about this it reminds me when we just pass something on Ali`i Drive where we said we're not going to let people park their cars along Ali`i Drive in this certain area because it proves as a safety hazard for drivers and it's just not a safe situation, so we passed that because the community and everybody said that was an unsafe condition. I feel this is unsafe, the community, overwhelmingly, and I've talked to everyone, has said absolutely, it's unsafe. I think, you know, this is just one of those things, responding to just a certain, unique situation, and I think it is similar to where we have put some no parking as well as speed limits as well as putting no parking signs, it's all about a particular neighborhood, a particular situation, and I think that this is good policy. I think if one of my colleagues has a very unsafe area in their community, they may bring it to us and say we should add it to this section, but maybe it won't rise to that level. But anyway, I yield and ask for your support. CHR. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you, Council Member. Thank you. Any comments or questions on the amendment? Council Member Kagiwada. MS. KAGIWADA: Thank you, Chair. Have you talked to HPD (Hawai`i Police Department) about this? MS. EVANS: Yes. MS. KAGIWADA: And what was their response? MS. EVANS: Well, they liked the way I wrote it because it's very clear that you would never, ever do a traffic violation against a bicyclist, that it would be the owner, the employer, or the agent that would be conducting a that would get the —and it's a traffic violation, it's not like a —it's kind of like a speeding ticket in a way. So, they pull them over, they would talk to them, at the discretion of the you know, they would determine what the situation was and then say, "Well, this is a warning," maybe $50 but they would have the right to treat it as like a traffic violation. So, he liked it better this way because it gives a lot more clarity on what the police officer would do. Page 13 PCPLUD-12 March 5, 2024 MS. KAGIWADA: Are you willing to do what the one testifier said, which was get a little bit more of an actual, professional information about the safety of this road for bicycles? MS. EVANS: This isn't, again, this is about commercial bicycle tours because we do not —if the road is unsafe or not, every bicyclist has a right to be on every road and every highway. So, it's do we believe we should regulate these commercial bicycle tour groups, which is you either believe in it or you don't, I guess is what I'm saying. MS. KAGIWADA: Yeah, yeah. MS. EVANS: And there's a lot of situations that people believe are just unsafe for having these groups. MS. KAGIWADA: Okay. Alright. I'm still not convinced that this is the way to go, just because I always want to see us promoting healthy, outdoor education and opportunities like bicycling. I feel like we don't really have enough evidence to say that this is not a good place for cycling, even if it tours. I guess my thought is if it's a winding road or like that, it makes cars slow down so maybe that's why, for instance, the testifier said they feel safer riding on this road. It might be because the speeds of the cars might be slowing down because of the way the road is built. So, it might actually be safer for cyclists in that case. I'm just not sure, and because I do alwaysI'm looking for ways for us to enhance and give more chances for us to be out there cycling and walking and doing things like that and getting out of our cars. I'm not comfortable without any kind of professional opinion on this with just like people saying they don't feel safe and no data, I guess, showing that it's not safe, like have we had any accidents? Have we had any bicycle tours that have had accidents in this area or people that are on tours getting in accidents? Anyway, so I'm not comfortable voting for this at this time, but I'll leave it at that. Thank you for bringing it forward. CHR. KIERKIEWICZ: Is there anyone from Police here on Zoom available to speak to this particular amendment? Council Member Evans, did you coordinate for Police to be here? MS. EVANS: I can check and see if Chief Ben CHR KIERKIEWICZ: I also just want to note that we're running way behind. MS. EVANS: Yeah. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: And so, we could either table this measure and take it up after Finance, but it's very clear that we still need some questions to be answered. Page 14 PCPLUD-12 March 5, 2024 MS. EVANS: Okay. CHR. KIERKIEWICZ: And we might not have the time for it right now. Council Member Villegas. MS. VILLEGAS: Yeah, I just had a quick comment, I was hoping to interject. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: Absolutely, the floor is yours. MS. VILLEGAS: Thank you. Thank you, Council Member Evans, for everything that you shared this afternoon. To me, it became very clear the difference between making a road illegal to ride a bike on, which is not even a possibility versus a bicycle tour. I lost a good friend and colleague riding up on what you would have thought was a very safe road in Hawi, due to a distracted driver, and that's one of the straighter roads in your district. For me, I listen to the testimony of the people who live and drive in your district and who will have had challenges with these roadways. During Ironman time of year, I often wish there was some way for us to limit the roadways that some of these adventurous cyclists utilize like Hualalai Road and Holualoa Road that are not built to really share bikes and cars, the way that our cars drive now days, but that's not really possible. But I would like to think that if we had bicycle tours on those roads, we would have people coming out in spades saying this is not a safe and healthy area to operate. So, I'm going to be supporting your amendment and supporting your legislation here. I'd also, I suppose I want to encourage my colleagues to look at, you know, the decisions —Council Member Evans is making a decision that is specifically related to her district. No one else's district doesn't prohibit bicycle tours in any other places on the island other than these two roads that are in her district, that she's listening to her constituents to make some changes in our laws to allow for those drivers and regular cyclists to be more safe on those roadways by eliminating the use of them by tour groups. So, I just thought I really wanted to share that, and I wanted to honor Council Member Evans. This is the area of the island that you're responsible for and you answer to the people there and I'll be supporting you in this. I don't see any huge red flags, you've obviously done your homework. Police, you've done these things and I trust that the benefits to passing something like this far outweigh any negatives. So, I'll be supporting you today in this. I yield. MS. EVANS: Thank you. I just wanted to point out, you know, I've talked to some people in the tourist industry, and I was mentioning that I was looking at this road and they thought wow, that's really a great idea, because who would want to invite tourists to our island and put them in a dangerous situation? So, from their viewpoint, protecting tourists, too, is something because they were in Page 15 PCPLUD-12 March 5, 2024 the destination you know, we're moving away from just getting tourists, but how do we manage the destination of people coming and what's authentic, which means, what do we know about our community and I believe that I would love to invite my colleagues and I will come for dinner, but I'd love to have you come out and ride the roads and see these roads that we're talking about and then, you know, maybe that might enlighten why people have this concern. Thank you, I yield. CHR. KIERKIEWICZ: Council Member Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Thank you, I'll be brief. I support the legislation and I —you nailed it home today. This is not about individual guys riding bikes, ladies or gentlemen riding bikes, this is about bike tours, okay? Clear. And you nailed down two roads and I'm going to tell you why I support this. I would like to see this in a form that doesn't show any areas because then you can create the idea and you create the form, and you can fill in the blank in later years or in six months. You could think about it after you have some community input, the studies, whatever, but you put in the Kohala Mountain Road from the junction of 250 to Route 19. I've driven that road. It is winding, it is narrow, there's a billion blind turns. And commercially guided bike tours, if they're not good bike riders and they're on that road with people commuting to and from Hawi to Waimea or beyond, that's scary. So, I agree with this. DOT'S (Department of Transportation) website says we've had nine bicyclist fatalities this year, this is 2023. That's the highest recorded number of deaths among bicyclists in Hawaii. It doesn't say bike tours, it's just bicyclist fatalities, so it doesn't speak directly to your bill, but there's definitely a fatality issue on bikes. You're not protected, helmet, no helmet, whatever. So, I like the idea, I like where you're going. I'll support the legislation. The testifier had a good point, where's the studies, where's the backup? I tell you, one death and everybody's going to be screaming for legislation to protect people on bicycles or to get them off the road, it'll be one or the other. So, you I think you're in the right mode and you've got the right timing, you know, you've got to take it from there. But I'll be supporting this when you get to a place where you feel comfortable in the community, Police, wherever. So, thank you. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: Council Member Evans, are you able to secure Chief Ben to come to Committee at some point? But I also want to know that I'd like to put a pin in this and move this into recess so that we can convene Finance. If he's not available because we don't know what time Finance will end today, would you be comfortable postponing to the next committee meeting where he is noticed that he should be here? Police's ability to enforce this legislation is the crux for my decision making. I need to know they understand the assignment and can enforce. So, if we can't get him today and it's very likely that it'll be after five o'clock, my suggestion is that we postpone this to the next meeting. I cannot hear you. Page 16 PCPLUD-12 March 5, 2024 MS. EVANS: He just wrote back and said he can join us, give me a second. don't know, does he know how to Zoom in. CHR. KIERKIEWICZ: I know but we're half an hour behind for the next committee. We have somebody zooming in from California for Finance. And so, I just want to make sure that we're able to stay on track as much as possible with the agenda that we've published to members of the community. MS. EVANS: Okay. I will ask him. I think we just move on and table it and bring it back after Finance. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: Okay. We are in recess. Recess: At 2:58 p.m., the Chair called for a recess. Reconvene: The meeting reconvened at 4:39 p.m. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: Aloha. Thank you. The Policy Committee on Planning, Land Use, and Development is back in session, out of recess, reconvening at 4:39 p.m. Council Member Evans. Hi, Chief Ben. Chief Moszkowicz, it's great to see you. (Note: At this time, Police Chief Benjamin T. Moszkowicz came forward to address the members of the Committee.) MR. MOSZKOWICZ: Hi, Council. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: We had some questions as a body surrounding the proposed amendment to this bill by Council Member Evans; your support for it, your ability to actually implement and enforce what's being requested here. I have thoughts that it could be done another way but would like to hear your thoughts on what's being proposed and the ability for your law enforcement officers to be able to actually enforce this ordinance. MR. MOSZKOWICZ: Sure. Thank you. So, I have worked with Council Member Evans going back and forth with some drafts and I shared some thoughts, some of which has been incorporated into the draft that I think you're looking at today. Anytime we have an attempt to curb behavior or change behavior, there is kind of two new ideas, right? The first is that creating a fear, or punishment, or a penalty might prevent people from doing it in the first place; and the second would be the actual enforcement action. The fact the enforcement action has to be something that's reasonable or the threat of enforcement will kind of be moot, I suppose. Page 17 PCPLUD-12 March 5, 2024 So, I don't know that this bill is perfect, but I think it accomplishes both of those roles. So, I kind of envision a couple different possible scenarios where officers could encounter this would be prohibited behavior and take enforcement action. So, if we're dealing with a guided bicycle tour situation. So there's a commercial bicycle tour, there's an owner, agent, or employee of the tour business is with the guided bicycle tour, the officer seeing the prohibited behavior that they're riding within a certain area that's, you know, prohibited by statute, the officer could essentially stop the group, identify who the owner, employer, agent of the tour business is, and take the enforcement action against the owner, employer or agent. So, in that kind of scenario, it's pretty straightforward. In the case of an unguided bicycle tour, it's a little bit less straightforward because it would still be the owner, the employee, or the agent of the tour business that's responsible for the violation and for being cited and potentially paying any fines. The problem is if the tour is unguided, then how do we do that, right? So, probably the only reasonable scenario where I could see us citing an unguided bicycle tour is if the officer is familiar with maybe through, you know, complaints or their own observations, or their own investigation they're familiar with a tour group that routinely drops off, let's just say every Wednesday at nine o'clock at a certain location. If the officer observed the activity, the unloading of the bicycles, the bicycles taking off down the road into the prohibited area, then they could potentially stop and cite that business employee or owner or agent. That's probably about the only scenario where I could see the unguided bicycle tour citation for that particular portion being used. CHR. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you, Chief Ben, for being here. It sounds really complicated. It really does. You know, I'm not going to be able to support the amendment. I just have concerns about how this bill is structured. My thought was, wouldn't it have been a bit better to create a program where commercial bike tour companies are seeking a permit to operate within the County, and within that process we've already identified areas where they cannot go and conduct tours, and that is guided by studies, assessments, by professionals. And so, I can't support this particular approach today, but I appreciate you being a strong advocate for your community. Thank you, Council Member Evans. Anyone else? Council Member Kimball. MS. KIMBALL: Yeah. Thank you. I'm going to try to channel a little bit of Council Member Lee Loy here, too, because I think that she and I shared kind of the same position, which is sort of what I think I hear you saying too, Council Member Kierkiewicz, is while I appreciate what you're doing here, I think what I'd rather see is we have an entity utilizing a community, a public space, right? It's like when you have to reserve the park and you pay a fee, and you have to fill out paperwork and, you know, have appropriate fire safety hazards and things like that. That's kind of the way I'd like to see this go as well, where we are requiring businesses that are operating on public roadways to register and as part of that Page 18 PCPLUD-12 March 5, 2024 process, we indicate where they can and cannot go. And then I still see this enforcement provision being there. But I think that that's a more holistic approach and would address more of what I'm thinking about here, which is the utilization of a public asset for community use, and I remember that that was a little bit of Council Member Lee Loy's thinking as well. I will vote to support the amendment because that's what we're voting on right now just for the completeness of your bill and that language, but I'm not comfortable with supporting the bill either way, amended or unamended because I'd like to take that different sort of registration approach with this. I think that would be more comprehensive. Thank you. I yield, Chair. MS. VILLEGAS: Chair? CHR. KIERKIEWICZ: Council Member Villegas, you have the floor. MS. VILLEGAS: Sure. Thank you. I like the idea of a more comprehensive, a whole new system for bicycle groups but I don't think any of us have it in their bandwidths to do that right now. And I think that if you look at our County and all the different projects that we're working on, none of us is going to pick that up and run with it and make it happen because it is not top of priority. We have a lot of pipe dreams about how we would like to make things work for permitting and then this more functional system. Yes, that would be amazing. You know, none of us know for sure if we'll be in office in another 12 months. So, picking that up and running with that, I just think that's trying to go way too far and I have to bring it back because Council Member Evans has asked for rules and has created policy to relate to two roads in her district. She's not trying to take on the whole industry of guided bike tours. She's trying to pass policy that her community has asked her to do to ensure that these roads are safer for drivers and to eliminate potential. And I think the reward outweighs the risk here. So, once again, I think it's wonderful that we can hope for these other bigger things but it's important for us to come down to right where we're at, with the people we're serving with, and for the things they're asking for; for policy that relate to their district. And I just find it really frustrating that we're getting so much bigger, broader, into the perfect scenarios that none of us really have it in our capacity to take on or execute. And here's one of our colleagues, taking on what she can do, has the support of our Police Chief, been here long enough to know that no piece of legislation is bulletproof. No piece of legislation is perfect. It's impossible. It's made by humans so it will always be fallible and have room for improvement. And so, the ironies are just frustrating to me right now. And I'll be supporting the amendment, and I'll be supporting this moving forward because I think it has good intention, it creates good policy, and the benefits outweigh the risks, and she does have the support of police, and it eliminates and Page 19 PCPLUD-12 March 5, 2024 mitigates certain risks that exists to these two specific roads in the district she represents. And with that, I yield. CHR. KIERKIEWICZ: There is a motion on the floor to amend —Council Member Evans, I'd like to take a vote on the motion and then we can go back to the main motion. MS. EVANS: Yeah, I just want to talk about the amendment because of Chief Ben's comments. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: Okay. MS. EVANS: The way we wrote it would meet the criteria for a police officer to understand, you know, if they pulled someone over that they could cite a traffic violation. Is that correct? MR. MOSZKOWICZ: Right. So, citing for traffic violations, the people who are obstructing traffic or they're traveling too fast, or they're making lane changes without signals, whatever, that authority isn't really affected by this particular statute, I would offer. But I think the statute is clearly written enough that the officers would be able to identify whether or not someone was an owner, employee, or agent of the bicycle tour business, and then identify that person and issue a citation to them for the enforcement center. MS. EVANS: Yeah. So, I think it's clear enough and meets intent. Do you? Do you think it's clear enough to meet intent, and that is the officer is able to read it and understand it? MR. MOSZKOWICZ: Yeah. I think so. MS. EVANS: Okay. Thank you. I yield. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: There is a motion on the floor to amend Bill 125 with the contents of Communication 679.44. Mr. Clerk, roll call vote please. Vote on Motion The motion to amend Bill 125 with the contents of to Amend: Comm. 679.44 was carried by the following roll call vote: (Approved) Ayes: Committee Members Evans, Galimba, Inaba, Kagiwada, Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder, Kimball, and Villegas — 7. Noes: Committee Chair Kierkiewicz —1. Absent: Committee Member Lee Loy — 1. Excused: None. Page 20 PCPLUD-12 March 5, 2024 CHR. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you. Back to the main motion. Council Member Evans. MS. EVANS: You have your light — MS. GALIMBA: Thanks. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: Council Member Galimba. MS. GALIMBA: Thank you. So, yes, on the main motion, I also feel like this, to me this is going to be problematic because we're creating a whole new chapter called Commercial Bike Tours, I believe, and pretty much the only part of it is that we're forbidding people to do commercial bike tours on particular roads. And although, at this point it's only two in Kohala, I potentially would need to addI mean, to be responsible, I've gotten complaints from folks in my community as well for certain roads, so we'll need to add those roads on there. So, then there's going to be a list of roads that commercial bike tours can't be on, which I think is cumbersome. So, I feel like, and also because we are creating a whole new chapter, it's almost like we need to do all the other parts to be responsible and not just have this sort of chapter that is just forbidding commercial bike tours on certain roads. It's almost like if you bring up the question, then we need to have the complete answer rather than just the parts of it. So, I can't support it for that, and I also feel more generally really on the fence. I mean, there is safety issues in certain places but I also, you know, don't want to suppress bicycling and even commercial bike tours because they are an excellent way to experience our island. So, between those two considerations, I don't feel comfortable supporting this particular approach. I do agree that there is an issue of safety on certain roads and that should be addressed. Thanks. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you, Council Member. Council Member Kagiwada. MS. KAGIWADA: Thank you. I like the idea of exploring this as a more in- depth way. And I'm sorry, I hear what Council Member Villegas was saying, but I do think that maybe HTA (Hawai`i Tourism Association) or another organization might do some of the heavy lifting if you wanted to do more exploring about being more holistic around this issue. You could probably find some organizations that might help with it because one of the things I was thinking before is if we say no bike tours in certain places, how does it affect like nearby roads? Then all of a sudden, do we have more bike tours on those roads, and do they then become unsafe. Page 21 PCPLUD-12 March 5, 2024 And to Council Member Galimba's point, I think although you're addressing two roads in your district, I just see once you do that, that our constituents will all find roads that they think should be added to that list. So, I'd love to see something a little more comprehensive as well, and I think I'd be much more inclined to support that because it would be better overall. Thank you. CHR. KIERKIEWICZ: Council Member Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: I support the idea. I'm a little bit confused. I'm missing everybody. You know, there's concern about no permitting fees, there's concern about not a big enough section. There's concern that this is unenforceable. The Chief made it pretty clear; this bill lets him do what he needs to do. Council Member Evans is addressing very specific issues in her community that were brought forward by her constituency. If anyone else was feeling that they'd want the same bill for their community, given this bill, she's allowing us the tool if we have issues in our district on specific roads where we feel there shouldn't be people on bikes. And these are not professional bike riders. These are people who are visiting, who may or may not have experience on bikes, or haven't been on a bike in 20 years and want to go experience it with their family. I just saw the article about the two people who died back to back, one of which was a visitor to our island. She was driving in a car. It's completely different, but what I take away from that is our visitors come, they drive on roads they don't know, they get hit by somebody who's out of control, and they die on vacation. That is the last story that we want anyone to hear; I went on a bike tour and my sister died on a bike tour. If that happens tomorrow, this bill is going to pass. That's it. But we can sit here, we can hem and haw about, you know, what should we do; can we make this better? Reality is, we've got an issue. It's a public safety concern that's in one Council Member's district right now. I'm sure there are other roads that would apply. This is a tool for her, brought forward by her constituency to say, "Hey, I'm trying to address this problem in my community." This isn't individual bike riders. This isn't ironman triathletes. This isn't anyone other than a commercial bike tour. So, I am inclined to support this. Wherever you want to go with this today, I understand why you're doing it. Could it be better? Sure. Could you find some other areas? Could we add permitting? Yeah. These businesses that exist, you know, I'm having a hard time believing they aren't permitted in some sense. They've got to have a business license. They've got to pay their taxes. There's got to be something that's an authority over how they exist. Do you know any of that, Council Member Evans? CHR KIERKIEWICZ: We're not having conversations at this time. MS. EVANS: I know. Page 22 PCPLUD-12 March 5, 2024 MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Interesting. Okay. So, I'll be supporting this however you want to roll through today. Chief, thank you for your time and giving us the idea that you are able to do what you need to do with this legislation if it were to pass. Thank you. MR. MOSZKOWICZ: You're welcome. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Council Member Evans, thank you. MS. EVANS: Thank you. CHR. KIERKIEWICZ: Any other comments? Council Member Evans, are you going to provide MS. EVANS: I think trying to go down the route of just turning it into a business licensing process and going through the whole exercise, it would be permitting, and rule -making, and forms, and it could end up being just totally micromanaging this one business, and we could get into manta rays, we could get into billfish tournaments. We could go on and on, and I think I've been taking the lead. The fact that we've been voting on bills to put in no parking signs. We've been passing bills that say don't park in this area. We've been passing bills on what the speed limit should be within a certain area. And I think it's reasonable and uncomplicated this way. In talking to some of the bicycle tour group owners, there's plenty of roads here. It's a huge place, and those couple of little roads isn't going to make a difference; make or break them at all. And they understand because they know what was done on Maui, they understand why it happened on Maui. It's not like I'm breaking the ice on something new. But I really hope that you can reconsider and support it. And I think we should this is a committee vote. I think we should take the vote today. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you. Anyone else? MS. VILLEGAS: Chair? CHR KIERKIEWICZ: Yes. Go ahead. MS. VILLEGAS: Yeah. You know, I have to humbly admit some triggers in this conversation because the term slippery slope being brought up and creating policy to apply to certain issues. Those were some of the excuses used when I was trying to pass herbicide legislation and it related around, well if we address this, then we'll have to address this. And if we prohibit this, then we'll have to prohibit this. So, a piece of legislation that would've been very straightforward and all-inclusive then got much more complicated, then got much simpler, which Page 23 PCPLUD-12 March 5, 2024 is what I see is what's happening with Council Member Evans' legislation. And I just —it doesn't hold water to me to be a viable excuse to say that we don't want this created. And this option brought forth to our constituency and those that live in our districts, because then someday they might come to us and then we might have to bring something forward that creates policy that prohibits the use of our roadways by bicycle tours. If legislation and policy have been created decades ago around our surf schools, around manta divers, around lots of other issues before it was so big and they would've been more confined to certain areas, perhaps we could've mitigated some of the challenges we're facing. But it doesn't sit well with me to say that I wouldn't support this because then someday I might have to be held accountable to my constituents to do the same thing in my district. That would be up to me. That's what we do in this role, is we listen to our constituents, and we bring forth policy to try to help solve some of the issues that they are navigating based on the circumstances of their district. And so, to me that's very straightforward. I thank you, Council Member Evans, for making that very clear and succinct. Thank you for Council Member Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder for bringing that and making that very clear that this is bringing forth a positive option that once again relates to one district and two roads. And there's plenty of room for improvement in all of our districts in many different ways, and I just can't abide by the role, if we touch this then it might become. Oh no, if we make this decision, then we might have to make future decisions. It's what we do here. And we do it for the people we work for. We are their public servants. I yield. CHR. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you. Anyone else? Call for the Question: MS. KIMBALL: I'd just like to call for the question. CHR KIERKIEWICZ: Okay. I just want to make a comment and then we're going to vote, you all. Council Member Evans, thank you. Thank you for being an advocate for your community. You brought this forward to this Committee in January. It's now March. Many of the comments that were raised by members of this dais has not changed. We've asked for a more holistic approach. We've also suggested an ad hoc committee. I just have concerns about the creation of an entire section with nothing to ground and make determinations around why a particular road is being selected. You mentioned, you know, there being an ability for Council Members to direct speed humps, and no parking signs, and all these things. There is guiding criteria in our Code that allows for justification to do that. This body requires data to make decisions and we have received no studies to date, to discuss traffic and safety as it relates to commercial tour operators or bike tour operators. So, with that being said, I can't support this bill today. I hope there is another way that we Page 24 PCPLUD-12 March 5, 2024 can find a way to address the issues that I think are not just occurring in your community but other communities and adopt a more holistic approach. That being said, there is a motion on the floor. Mr. Clerk, if we could do a roll call vote, please? Vote on Bill 125: The motion to recommend passage of Bill 125, as amended Draft 2 to Draft 2, on first reading was carried by the following Failed roll call vote: Ayes: Committee Members Evans, Inaba, Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder, and Villegas — 4. Noes: Committee Members Galimba, Kagiwada, Kimball, and Chair Kierkiewicz -- 4. Absent: Committee Member Lee Loy -- 1. Excused: None. ADJOURN- There being no further business, at 5:04 p.m., Mr. Inaba moved to adjourn the MENT: meeting. Seconded by Ms. Galimba, and carried by the following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Evans, Galimba, Inaba, Kagiwada, Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder, Kimball, Villegas, and Chair Kierkiewicz — 8. Noes: None. Absent: Committee Member Lee Loy — 1. Excused: None. CHR, KIERKIEWICZ: Committee is adjourned at 5:04 p.m. Mahalo nui. Approved: Ms. Ashley L. Kierkiewicz, Chair Policy Committee on Planning, Land Use, and Development AKltk t '�d T ate) Page 25