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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMIN GREDC 2017/10/03 (2016-2018)Committee on Governmental Relations and Economic Development 1Oth Session Hawaii County Building 25 Aupuni Street Hilo, Hawaii October 3, 2017 CALL TO The regular meeting of the Committee on Governmental Relations and Economic ORDER: Development was called to order at 9:05 a.m., in the Council Chambers, Hilo, by Dru Mamo Kanuha, Chair. ROLL CALL: Present: Mr. Dru Mamo Kanuha, Chair Ms. Jennifer Ruggles, Vice Chair Mr. Aaron S. Y. Chung, Member Ms. Maile Medeiros David, Member Ms. Karen Eoff, Member Ms. Susan L. K. Lee Loy, Member Ms. Eileen O'Hara, Member Ms. Valerie Poindexter, Member Mr. Herbert M. Richards, III, Member STATEMENTS The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, FROM THE Statements from the Public on Agenda Items. PUBLIC ON AGENDA ITEMS: The following individuals registered to speak in support of Res. 295-17 (Comm. 453), and came forward when called by the Chair: Cory Harden. Brenda Ford. Jon Olson. Rene Siracusa. Heather Kimball. CHR KANUHA: Is there anyone else wishing to testify who hasn't testified? Okay, seeing none, I'll close public testimony and move on with the agenda. We'll get to the resolution after Communication 46.6. COMMUNI- The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, CATIONS: Communications. GREDC-10 October 3, 2017 Comm. 46.6: HAWAII STATE ASSOCIATION OF COUNTIES' JULY 31, 2017, AND AUGUST 10, 2017, EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE MEETING MINUTES From Council Member Dru Mamo Kanuha, dated September 14, 2017. Motion to Close File: Ms. Poindexter moved to close file on Comm. 46.6. Seconded by Ms. David. CHR KANUHA: Discussion, Committee Members. Hopefully, everybody has read through the minutes. These were held both in July and in August. Ms. Eoff. MS. EOFF: You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I saw something in here where you folks were talking about possibly putting in the HSAC (Hawai`i State Association of Counties) Package, something regarding the Sunshine Law for the Legislature. Is that something you discussed? CHR KANUHA: Can you show me where we were discussing that? MS. EOFF: Okay. Well I guess I just wondered if it's too late to put something into the HSAC package at this point, or is there still time? CHR KANUHA: There's still time. We're going to be, just as an FYI, we're going to be discussing the HSAC package the next committee meeting, and there's a whole bunch of different items to put on there. MS. EOFF: Yeah, it's under the unfinished business, there's just a mention of it. CHR KANUHA: And it might have been the case where Kauai was doing a resolution at the time. MS. EOFF: So you were just discussing it? Yeah, you mentioned something about the 2018 Legislative Package in that discussion, so I just was wondering if there was still time. CHR KANUHA: Yes, there's still time. MS. EOFF: Okay, thank you. CHR KANUHA: Mr. Richards. MR. RICHARDS: Thank you, Chair. I'm intrigued by the presentation that apparently you received a PowerPoint. Is that my understanding? It sure would be nice to—if we were able to see something presented to us, but my question concerns the notes on the draft presentation. It seems to be some variance in numbers. Was there a comment on that or is that a follow up? Seems like they Page 2 GREDC-10 October 3, 2017 painted a different picture with the presentation, as opposed to reality. So what's that? CHR KANUHA: Sure. So we got the draft of the special session given to HSAC and there were a lot of numbers within that special session presentation that we found were incorrect. Chair White went through the entire presentation, went through all the numbers, and broke it down, what was reality, and we sent it back to the Legislature to tell them that this was the actual numbers that were correct. So this draft special session that was handed to us was definitely not reality. It was very difficult because we were given this at a very late hour to look it over and to comment about it during the special session. This was for the, not the actual special session, this was for the presentation before the special session. So they presented us with this, which was incorrect and we gave them a sheet with the correct numbers. I think that correct numbers are in here as well. MR. RICHARDS: Yeah, it's in the front. So a follow up on that is what was their response? CHR KANUHA: That they would look at it. MR. RICHARDS: Crickets? Okay, well I appreciate that. Kudos to HSAC and to Chair Mike White for doing that. CHR KANUHA: And I don't know all the members that were present at that Val, I don't know if you were at that special session, not the special session but the hearing before the special hearing. Okay. And we were talking, it's hard to bring up these when our it's several months ago, yeah? MR. RICHARDS: Right, and I appreciate that, but it sure highlights the concern about the Sunshine Law, doesn't it? Thank you. I yield. CHR KANUHA: Thank you. Any other discussion, Council Members? Okay, and again, going through all the notes, you can see what we discussed during these meetings. It's very hard because we meet once a month and HSAC isn't bound by the Sunshine Law actually, if you never knew that, because it's a special type of group, but we abide by the Sunshine Law for transparency sake. Okay, any other discussion for this? Hearing or seeing none, all in favor of filing Communication 46.6 say "aye." Page 3 GREDC-10 October 3, 2017 Vote on Comm. 46.6: The motion to close file on Comm. 46.6 was carried by Filed the following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Chung, David, Eoff, Lee Loy, O'Hara, Poindexter, Richards, Ruggles, and Chair Kanuha – 9. Noes: None. Absent: None. Excused: None. CHR KANUHA: Motion passes. Mr. Clerk, Resolution 295-17. ORDER OF The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of RESOLUTIONS: business, Order of Resolutions. Res. 295-17: REQUESTS THAT THE HAWAII STATE LEGISLATURE AMEND CHAPTER 92 OF THE HAWAII REVISED STATUTES TO REQUIRE ITSELF TO BE SUBJECT TO THE SUNSHINE LAW Requests the State Legislature to remove exemptions in State law for open meeting requirements, enforcement, penalties, and sanctions so that the State Legislature would be subject to the complete provisions of the Sunshine Law. Reference: Comm. 453 Intr. by: Ms. Poindexter Motion to Approve: Ms. Poindexter moved to adopt Res. 295-17. Seconded by Ms. O'Hara. CHR KANUHA: Ms. Poindexter. MS. POINDEXTER: You know the resolution itself is self-explanatory and we heard from the testifiers about openness and transparency. The public, I always believe, has the right to hear what our deliberations are and how we came to the decision to vote the way we vote. Kauai had theirs pass and so did Maui. On Kaua`i's resolution, I did submit testimony supporting it and I quoted the Oklahoma court's decision in Oklahoma. It was the Oklahoma Association of Municipal Attorneys versus the State, 1978. It gives a clear statement of why open meetings are important and I quote "If an informed citizenry is to meaningfully participate in government or at least understand why government acts affecting their daily lives are taken, the process of decision making as well as the end results must be conducted in full view of the governed." And this was a Oklahoma court's decision. I believe that Hawaii—our State Legislature should be open to looking at complying with the Sunshine Law. Page 4 GREDC-10 October 3, 2017 The special session was a clear statement in itself because there were no public hearings. There was nothing. There was no advanced warning that this was coming up and we were called at the very last moment for them to tell us what they had already decided. And I asked in that special meeting that we had, a private meeting with our Senate President and the House Speaker, and Sylvia Luke, and I think the transportation person was also in there, it was like it was a done deal and yet we had not even begun public testimony. So I just felt that the deals were made When they call a recess, they go into caucus. That caucus should be in open, public forum so that we know what they're discussing. It's like something comes up and somebody does an amendment, immediately recess, and we go back into closed doors and caucus, and nobody knows what they're talking about. Then they come out and they have these decisions already made and I feel as a voter, and even me just personally as a voter, even if I wasn't sitting here as a Council Member, I think I have the right to know what the person that I put in office is deliberating on my behalf. So I got many calls, we know that social media was going crazy, I was part of it as well. So putting this on the table and I hope you can all support it. Thank you. CHR KANUHA: Thank you, Ms. Poindexter. Ms. Ruggles. MS. RUGGLES: Thank you. I just want to thank Ms. Poindexter for bringing this forward. I think it's very pertinent and it's been too long already that we haven't addressed this. One of the things the testifiers brought up was the issue of these gut and replaces that happens so frequently and what ends up getting passed is something completely different from what the public thought it was. And I'm consistently surprised by the lack of transparency, especially when they're making decisions that personally affect all of us in our day to day lives, and then they're having these discussions behind closed doors. And as a constituent, I'd like to know what my representative is saying. The lack of transparency, it's disempowering to voters, it's discouraging to voters, to public bystanders who care about the issues. We have a hard enough time getting the public to care. It's a basic pillar of public process and it's important to be transparent when making decisions that affect everyone, so thank you for bringing this forth. Thank you. CHR KANUHA: Thank you, Ms. Ruggles. Ms. David. MS. DAVID: Mahalo, Chair. First of all, I'd like to also thank Ms. Poindexter for bringing this very timely resolution before us and I do support it 100 percent. What I'd like to kind of clarify is what Ms. Ruggles said, during the legislative process, I want to thank our Legislative Research Branch because many times, if we find something that we want to either support or not support, we do not have Page 5 GREDC-10 October 3, 2017 adequate time to submit testimony. I mean it has to be done so quickly that if not for our Legislative Research Branch that actually screens things that relate to Hawaii County business, we would probably miss our opportunity to submit testimony, one way or another. So the turnaround time is so fast that I think we're handicapped in that way also, in responding adequately to things that are going to have a big impact on this county. So that's all I wanted to say, I wanted to thank our research branch staff and also Ms. Poindexter, and I support this resolution. I yield, mahalo. CHR KANUHA: Thank you. Ms. Eoff. MS. EOFF: Thank you. Yes, I too, support this. I'm a firm believer in public participation in government, and although democracy can get messy and drawn out times because we do have the ability for the public to engage, I think that we have to do all we can to encourage that. And I'd like to thank the Maui County Council and the Kauai County Council for taking the initiative to pass resolutions similar to this one and thank Ms. Poindexter for bringing this forward. I know it's going to be tough to get the Legislature to take a step towards abiding by the Sunshine Law, but I think it would be a good conversation to open and see where it can go. So I'll support this because I do want to support the public's interest in the formation of public policy and I think we need to encourage that. Thank you. CHR KANUHA: Thank you. Ms. O'Hara, you were going to press your button? Yeah, go right ahead. MS. O'HARA: Thank you, Chair. I do support this bill and I really appreciate that Ms. Poindexter has submitted it for our consideration. I actually did work recently at the State Legislature for a couple months and not for a long time, but I got to observe firsthand how these backdoor meetings take place. And with all due respect, it happens with great arrogance and no one is aware of the results of those meetings. So, it's something that I was able to view and see how it disrupts the integrity of the legislative process. The other thing, I mean there are many things with the manner in which our State Legislature operates that disadvantages us. As Ms. David pointed out, the timing of testimony, the requirements for timing of testimony and the fact that we have no way to do remote testimony in virtually all of the committees at the State Legislature. So as outer island constituents, we don't get to have the same voice in State government, and I think it's really important to rein this process in and ensure that it's done with integrity and transparency. I too, don't feel that the Legislature will respond to these resolutions from the various counties. I'm glad we're doing this because it does bring up the discussion, but I don't know that this will force anyone's hand. So I'm sorry we can't take a measure that's stronger Page 6 GREDC-10 October 3, 2017 and maybe collectively hold hands at the County level to try and force this issue further because it is a very important one. So thank you. CHR KANUHA: Mahalo. Anyone else? Ms. Lee Loy. MS. LEE LOY: Thank you, Chair. Ditto everything everyone just said. I was actually a little concerned though in the resolution at the very end, Ms. Poindexter, you've identified Ron Kouchi, the Senate President, the Speaker of the House, and mentioned all of our representatives but none of our Senators. was just trying to understand why you identified all of the House Members but not our Senate Members. And I support this, but if we're going to do it, I think everybody should know, including our Senators, and if it's a possibility to add them in. MS. POINDEXTER: I apologize because I don't know why it was removed or anything, I thought we had it in. I'll check on that. When it goes to Council, I'll have that changes made and I don't know the reason why it maybe had been taken out that I know, but I apologize for not catching that here. But at the first draft, I know we had all of our Senators here on the island. MS. LEE LOY: And that's great and sometimes the protocol is it goes to the Speaker and then they run it down, you know, to all the members. But I just know that if we singled them out individually, you know, I think it would go a little further, and like Ms. O'Hara just mentioned, death by papercuts, this stuff, it really is hard to really have them make a meaningful change. MS. POINDEXTER: Yeah, and I apologize because I thought I had that in and you know, at that time, my Legislative Aide was on vacation so I did this kind of on my own. I thought I had it in and so when I was gone and it passed and it came through my Aide, then we put it through. But again, I'll double check what the process was, maybe they had a reason for removing it. So thank you for bringing that up. CHR KANUHA: Mr. Richards. MR. RICHARDS: Again, interest of time, ditto. But as well, I'll use our report that you gave us with the attached PowerPoint as an example of reasoning why we need to support, and I definitely support. CHR KANUHA: Mr. Chung. MR. CHUNG: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You know, I'm going to cast my vote in favor of this measure, just as a, I guess a gesture of solidarity with my colleagues. But I have some real big concerns about this. It's not significant concerns, you know, I throw my vote, it doesn't really matter to me. But Page 7 GREDC-10 October 3, 2017 practically speaking, I don't like interfering with other people's business, okay? And that's the State Legislature, they call the shots over us and if we're going to piss them off, they're just going to make life more difficult for us in the long run, okay? I think Ms. O'Hara stated that it's highly unlikely that they're going to pass or agree with these resolutions, so we're just heightening—it's almost like a provocation in my opinion. But having said that, in the past, I've always thought to myself, and this—over the last maybe 20 years, why is it that the Legislature doesn't adhere to those same principles that they're making us adhere to? And I thought that inherently unfair. But then over the years, my thinking has evolved. I think most of you have recalled that oftentimes, I've been advocating relaxation of the Sunshine Law as it pertains to our body because at times, it cripples us, it cripples our ability to do the people's work. So on the one hand, we're saying the people want to see us do their work, we need transparency for an informed electorate, but we have to balance that with effectiveness and timely decision making. I'll give you an example, and again, this is a two-edged sword, but a lot of times, we're asked to send testimony up to the Legislature and of course, because they do things in a whacky way, we only have a few days to react. But wouldn't it be good if we could just do minute resolutions, circulate something, if everyone agrees to it, we can send it up en masse, everyone on this Council agrees to it and it can be ratified later on? We're not able to do that kind of stuff We're not able to react as a body quick enough. So, I think we should be advocating for a relaxation, I continue to do that. So, how can I, on the one hand say we have to have a relaxation for more effective decision making on the Council level, and then say that these guys should have strict adherence to the Sunshine Law which? I hope you guys can understand my angst over here. There are other concerns, too. Ms. Harden brought up the fact that these guys are dealing with 3,000 bills a session. How in the hell are they going to manage 3,000 bills if they have to adhere to the Sunshine Law? That's crazy. There has to be a balance somewhere. I'm okay. I'm 100 percent in favor of transparency. I think if all of you know we've—many of us have advocated not even going into executive sessions. Don't get me wrong, I'm in favor of openness, but you have to balance that with the practicalities, too. They're there only for about four and a half months, I think. You have 51 members I think in the House, maybe 25 in the Senate, we only got nine and we're having a hard time. How in the hell are they going to manage their affairs under those circumstances if they have to go strict adherence to the Sunshine Law? Very difficult and I'm concerned as a member of this State, as a member of public who's relying on these guys to make good decisions. Page 8 GREDC-10 October 3, 2017 So I've got some real big concerns. And let's really think about it. As far as I can recall, the only time I can ever remember this body, over the last three years, really hashing things out in public and having people change their mind, was only one time during the—Margaret Wille's ethics bill. People evolved over time, there were delays and everything and at the very end, Ms. Wille said the final package was a better package than what was proposed earlier because we all worked together. But really think about it, I don't thinkI cannot recall any time other than that, where people have changed their votes. So that's just a commentary. It might be a negative commentary about this body too, but I just had to state that. I am going to be voting in favor of it as a matter of solidarity, but I just think it's got to be tempered somewhat and I wanted my statements to be put on the record. Thank you. CHR KANUHA: Thank you. Ms. Poindexter, then Ms. O'Hara. MS. POINDEXTER: So you know, many other states are doing it. So what our State needs to figure out is how the other states are doing it. It may be in committees that it's more relaxed and then when it gets to the bigger, you know, when they're in sessionI don't know how they can, but I'm sure they can figure it out because many other states are doing it, and our State should be doing it as well. When we say our hands are tied, or their hands are tied because this is just basically a resolution, it has no force of law, but you know what? The voters, the people have the power, that's who have the power. So if your legislators, you believe that they're not doing the right thing, you have the power to put them in there or not. That is the power. The people have the power to do it. The other thing is punishment and I agree, Council Member Chung brought it up about you know, we're going to do something like this and then we're going to get punished. And the reason why punishment takes place is because there is no Sunshine Law. They get to caucus behind closed doors and if you don't obey my command, then you get out there and you vote against what we did, I'm not going to give you CIP (Capital Improvement Plan) money, I'm not going to, as a Sylvia Luke can say, "Hey, I'm going to award all of those who voted yes at the special session, and all who voted no, I'm not going to fund you." That's what the Sunshine Law does. It gives those people the power. And I'm just going to end with a quote from Jimmy Hendrix, and he said—and of all people, Jimmy Hendrix. Well everybody has something good to offer, right? He says, "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." Thank you. CHR KANUHA: Thank you. Ms. O'Hara. Page 9 GREDC-10 October 3, 2017 MS. O'HARA: Thank you, Chair, and thank you for the quote. I just wanted to address some of the points that Mr. Chung made. I too, agree that the Sunshine Law, as it exists in the State of Hawaii, is too restrictive on the public bodies that are held to that law. And in particular, and we've discussed this publically and is something that was part of the HSAC Package, we have continued to ask the Legislature to relax some of those constraints on us, such as the requirement that no more than two of us can attend a public meeting. And this is very onerous in my opinion because where do we find out about the issues facing the public but at public meetings? We cannot know in advanced whether the outcome will lead to some sort of legislation at the County level before we go to the meetings often, and yet, that's what we're held to and the State Legislature is not. Now simply, if they were to consider and adopt a Sunshine Law, there are different renditions of the Sunshine Law amongst the many States, and what we have here, is in my opinion, a little too restrictive. It would be nice to see that relaxed, as Mr. Chung said, but I do think it should apply to all of the legislative bodies. And that's not going to fix some of the ineffective process oriented kind of problems that our Legislature has. For instance, Mr. Chung mentioned that 3,000 bills get introduced every session. Well, if you look through those bills, you'll find 10 or more bills that are expressly the same. They may be worded slightly different, but they're exactly the same. So that process in itself isn't going to be fixed by applying or not applying Sunshine Law. So that's not going to address the inefficiencies of the legislative process as it's laid out in the State of Hawaii. But I still think that we should all be abiding by a Sunshine Law. I would like to see it relaxed in a couple regard, like I said the public meeting issue is one of them, and I think it should apply equally to all of our legislative bodies. That's my point. Thank you. CHR KANUHA: Mr. Chung. MR. CHUNG: And I just wanted to echo what Ms. Poindexter said during her last discussion. Basically, this is a democracy, the people will decide. And I know maybe that flies in the face of some of my arguments because you need an informed electorate, but ultimately, they make the decisions. If they don't like how things are done, if it's so bad, they'll change it. And also, within the legislative bodies themselves, there could be change, if it's that bad. I don't know, I've never been up there. I've never worked up there. Only those people know and they're in the eye of the storm so to speak. So you know, we're kind of really—we have to temper our statements I think when we're dealing with these guys. I wouldn't sayI wouldn't go so far as to say that we're going to get punished, but I did say that it's going to piss them off Whether that translates into punishment later on, I don't know but it's going to anger them I think. But change, if it's needed, change will come, either through the electorate or within. Thank you. Page 10 GREDC-10 October 3, 2017 CHR KANUHA: Thank you, any continued discussion? Okay, then I'll just end it with a few statements. Mahalo for bringing this up. Mahalo for continuing the discussion, what started with the other counties. I think this is definitely the result of what we saw this past special session. I agree that what we saw was not in the public's interest, especially how it was dealt with and decided upon. I agree with everybody's statement, there are a lot of issues that we do have with the Sunshine Law in terms of the meetings going to public meetings where only two of us can go. If more than two of us go, then we have to make all these statements and really, these aren't our meetings, we're not deciding anything, we're there to listen and to educate ourselves. And how do we do that? We show up to these meetings. So I wish those would be dealt with by the Legislature to give us more ability to go to these meetings. It was part of the HSAC Package and it didn't pass, obviously. I don't think anything passed in the HSAC Package. But I absolutely agree that transparency is key to a growing democracy, and I really think how the Legislature is set up now makes it very difficult for them to abide by these Sunshine Laws. So I think if they're going to make itif they're going to have to abide by Sunshine Law, they need to set up how they deal with their session differently. It's just not set up currently in a way that is conducive to following a lot of these Sunshine Laws. So, saying that, I thank you for doing this. I absolutely agree that this needs to move forward and these discussions need to happen. I think we have these discussions all the time but the result of what we saw this last special session really hurt, not only us here as a Council, every Council, but the people that were looking at this. So mahalo, Ms. Poindexter, for bringing this up. I'll support it and let's continue that conversation. I think definitely, need to amend that section whereto add the Senators in there for the next Council meeting. But saying that, let's move on and let's vote for this, or let's take a vote. Vote on Res. 295-17: The motion to adopt Res. 295-17 was carried by the (Approved) following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Chung, David, Eoff, Lee Loy, O'Hara, Poindexter, Richards, Ruggles, and Chair Kanuha — 9. Noes: None. Absent: None. Excused: None. CHR KANUHA: Motion passes. Thank you. Thank you everybody for coming out. Page 11 GREDC-10 BILLS FOR ORDINANCES: ADJOURN MF,NT- Approved: 1 October 3, 2017 The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, Bills for Ordinances. (There were none.) There being no further business, at 9:49 a.m., Ms. David moved to adjourn the meeting. Seconded by Ms. Eoff and carried by the following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Chung, David, Eoff, Lee Loy, O'Hara, Poindexter, Richards, Ruggles, and Chair Kanuha — 9. Noes: None. Absent: None. Excused: None. CHR. KANUHA: We are adjourned. Mr. Dru Mamo Kanuha, Chair Governmental Relations and Economic Development Committee DMKJjm (Date) Page 12