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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMIN FC 2018/06/18 2016-2018Committee on Finance 37th Session West Hawaii Civic Center 74-5044 Ane Keohokalole Highway, Building A Kailua-Kona, Hawaii June 18, 2018 CALL TO The regular meeting of the Committee on Finance was called to order at ORDER: 1:05 p.m., in the Council Chambers, Kailua-Kona, by Ms. Maile Medeiros David, Chair. ROLL CALL: Present: Ms. Maile Medeiros David, Chair Ms. Karen Eoff, Vice Chair Mr. Aaron S. Y. Chung, Member Mr. Dru Mamo Kanuha, Member Ms. Susan L. K. Lee Loy, Member (via videoconference from Hilo) Ms. Eileen O'Hara, Member (via videoconference from Hilo) Ms. Valerie T. Poindexter, Member Mr. Herbert M. "Tim" Richards, III, Member Ms. Jennifer Ruggles, Member (via videoconference from Hilo, came in later) STATEMENTS The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, FROM THE Statements from the Public on Agenda Items. PUBLIC ON The following individuals registered to speak and came forward when called by the Chair: Abelghassem Abraham Sadegh: Rob Tucker: Toni Withington: (representing Malama Kohala Kahakai) James Akau: (representing Na Mamo O Kawa) Jesse K. Potter: (representing 1`6MM I Ka Lani) Keoni Fox: (representing Ho`omalu Ka`u) Bill 160 (Comm. 959), in support. Bill 160 (Comm. 959), in support. Comm. 954, comment. Comm. 954, in support. Comm. 954, in support. Comm. 954, comment. FC -37 COMMUNI- CATIONS: `Rina Akamu: Kitrrena Morgan: Abel Simeona Lui: Shelley Mahi-hanai: Comm. 954, comment. Comm. 954, comment. Comm. 954, comment. Comm. 7.23; Comm. 73.5; and Bill 160 (Comm. June 18, 2018 959), comment. CHR. DAVID: I believe that concludes our public testimony section of our agenda. I will be closing public testimony at this time, and move on to Communications. The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, Communications. CHR. DAVID: Mr. Clerk, please, Communication 7.23. Comm. 7.23: MONTHLY BUDGET STATUS REPORT FOR THE MONTH ENDED APRIL 30, 2018, FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE From Finance Director Deanna Sako, dated May 18, 2018, transmitting the above report pursuant to Hawaii County Charter Section 6-6.3(h). Vote on Comm. 7.23: Ms. Eoff moved to close file on Comm. 7.23. Seconded Filed by Ms. Poindexter and carried by the following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Chung, Eoff, Kanuha, Lee Loy, O'Hara, Poindexter, Ruggles, and Chair David — 8. Noes: None. Absent: Committee Member Richards —1. Excused: None. CHR. DAVID: Mr. Clerk, Communication 14.36. Comm. 14.36: REPORT OF CHANGE ORDERS AUTHORIZED: APRIL 16 — 30, 2018 From Finance Director Deanna Sako, dated May 16, 2018, transmitting the above report pursuant to Hawaii County Code Section 2-12.3. Page 2 FC -37 Vote on Comm. 14.36 Filed Ms. Poindexter moved to close file on Comm. 14.36. Seconded by Mr. Kanuha and carried by the following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Chung, Eoff, Kanuha, Lee Loy, O'Hara, Poindexter, Ruggles, and Chair David — 8. Noes: None. Absent: Committee Member Richards —1. Excused: None. CHR. DAVID: Mr. Clerk, Communication 73.5. June 18, 2018 Comm. 73.5: REPORTS OF THE ATTENDANCE OF COUNCIL MEMBER EOFF, COUNCIL MEMBER DAVID, COUNCIL MEMBER KANUHA, AND COUNCIL MEMBER RICHARDS AT THE WEST HAWAII CIVIC CENTER MEETING HELD ON MAY 24, 2018, REGARDING THE COUNTY'S BUDGET Motion to Close File: Vote on Comm. 73.5: Filed From Council Member Karen Eoff, dated May 25, 2018 Ms. Eoff moved to close file on Comm. 73.5. Seconded by Ms. Poindexter. CHR. DAVID: Ms. Eoff. MS. EOFF: Okay, thank you. I think this is just to be in compliance with HRS (Hawai`i Revised Statutes). Actually, not all of us were there the whole time but some of us were there part of the time. CHR. DAVID: Thank you very much. Anyone else wishing to comment? No? Seeing none, all those in favor please say "aye." The motion to close file on Comm. 73.5 was carried by the following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Chung, Eoff, Kanuha, Lee Loy, O'Hara, Poindexter, Richards, Ruggles, and Chair David — 9. Noes: None. Absent: None. Excused: None. CHR. DAVID: Mr. Clerk, can you move on to Communication 954, please? Page 3 FC -37 June 18, 2018 Comm. 954: DEPARTMENT OF PARKS AND RECREATION'S EVALUATION OF APPLICATIONS FOR 2017-2018 PUBLIC ACCESS, OPEN SPACE, AND NATURAL RESOURCES PRESERVATION COMMISSION STEWARDSHIP GRANTS From Parks and Recreation Director Roxcie L. Waltjen, dated May 18, 2018, presenting seven applications for funds to provide stewardship of various County properties acquired via the Public Access, Open Space, and Natural Resources Preservation fund, including evaluation and recommendation for each applicant and associated project plan. The following entities have applied: • Ho`omalu Ka`u; Kahua Olohu (Ka`u) Funds requested: $58,600 • Na Mamo O Kawa; Kawa (Ka`u) Funds requested: $62,658 • The Honu Project; Kawa (Ka`u) Funds requested: $10,600 • Kohanaiki `Ohana; `O`oma Beach (North Kona) Funds requested: $25,480 • Malama Kohala Kahakai; Pao`o (North Kohala) Funds requested: $22,219 • Malama Kohala Kahakai; Kaiholena (North Kohala) Funds requested: $44,045) • 1`6MM I Ka Lani; Waipi`o Valley Lookout (Hamakua) Funds requested: $74,250 Motion to Close File: Mr. Richards moved to close file on Comm. 954. Seconded by Ms. Poindexter. CHR. DAVID: Council Members, any discussion? Mr. Richards, go ahead. MR. RICHARDS: Thank you, Chair. Yeah, this is to have the stewardship of PONC's (Public Access, Open Space, and Natural Resources Commission) lands that we've had coming forward. We've run into this problem before, where we have groups coming forward willing to steward the lands but we're running into, I guess, they're called contractual problems. Specifically in my district, District 9, there are two, Pao`o and Kaiholena, that are two projects. I did speak to Ms. Waltjen concerning the adoption of this, and she had some concerns because none of the details were given for the employment of the students coming forward. As I've looked into it and understand this, the reason the details weren't given about the employed students is because they have not been employed yet because Page 4 FC -37 June 18, 2018 they don't have the funding, sort of the chicken or the egg. So I did have a discussion with Kohala. Toni Whittington is out there; she's testified on this. And I spoke to Ms. Waltjen about this, as well, and she is comfortable with accepting this on behalf of Kohala. The fact that given—again, we have this chicken or the egg situation—so with that, it looks like we're supposed to adopt all five together, but some are to be adopted, some are not to be adopted. I'm not sure what the protocol is. I'm not sure, Clerk, if we need to talk about that. It is my understanding that Parks and Recreation is fine with Kohala and the two projects, given the fact that once the funding is there, we can hire them and they will be hired in accordance with the appropriate labor laws as it pertains to the employment of people. So, Clerk, how do we do this? CHR. DAVID: Mr. Clerk? MR. HENRICKS: So what you have before you is the report required by the Charter, which provides evaluations and recommendations. The Council can then use information to introduce and adopt resolutions that would then grant the administration to issue the grants in the amount requested or less, or more, perhaps. But that would be the next step, is to use this information as much, as we get the Public Access report for priority lands, for the Council then to take a next step to recommend grant awards. MR. RICHARDS: Okay, so we can accept the report and then move forward with the resolution? MR. HENRICKS: That's my understanding. CHR. DAVID: Thank you for great explanation, and clear. Let me see, Council Members, any other discussion? No? Hilo, any discussion on Communication 954? Okay, none Hilo. Ms. Eoff, you have a question? MS. EOFF: I just wanted to say that although there has been some misunderstandings or hardships involved in this process, I still support this process. I wanted to thank all of the nonprofits, who have taken the time to organize stewardship programs and that they care about the properties that they've committed to, and everybody involved. Between the commission and Parks and Recreations, I know this is a time-consuming process, but I think in the long run we all will benefit if we are taking care of these parcels and screening these and providing the summaries and the grants on the parks in the communities. It's a really good exercise. Learning about what we have, what the value is, and how to protect it going forward. So, I just wanted to say that. Thank you. CHR. DAVID: Thank you, Ms. Eof£ Anyone else before I close? Alright, I would also like to thank and aloha all the nonprofit organizations who have committed, and not only made a feel -good effort but a real sincere effort, because Page 5 FC -37 June 18, 2018 they believe that these places that have been purchased for preservation in perpetuity is very important, considering what has been lost in the past. I really thank every one of you. I forgot to mention that Director Wahjen and Deputy Director Messina are both in the Hilo Chambers, if we had questions. I'm happy to say Mr. Hamana Ventura is here, and he's willing to answer anyone's questions. But based on that, I think this is a self-explanatory process. And I think it's up to the Council Members now in each respective district to work with Parks and Recreation and these organizations to do this good job, or good deed, for our lands. So given that, all those in favor of filing Communication 954 please say "aye. Vote on Comm. 954: The motion to close file on Comm. 954 was carried by the Filed following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Chung, Eoff, Kanuha, Lee Loy, O'Hara, Poindexter, Richards, Ruggles, and Chair David — 9. Noes: None. Absent: None. Excused: None. CHR. DAVID: Thank you very much. Mahalo, everyone, for coming and testifying. ORDER OF The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, RESOLUTIONS: Order of Resolutions. (There were none.) CHR. DAVID: Mr. Clerk, can you move on to Bills for Ordinances, please? BILLS FOR The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, ORDINANCES: Bills for Ordinances. Bill 160: AMENDS CHAPTER 2, ARTICLE 15, OF THE HAWAII COUNTY CODE 1983 (2016 EDITION, AS AMENDED), RELATING TO THE CODE OF ETHICS Amends Section 2-83 by adding a definition for "truthful" and requiring that officers and employees of the County be truthful when performing their duties and dealing with the public. Reference: Comm. 959 Intr. by: Ms. O'Hara Page 6 FC -37 June 18, 2018 Motion to Approve: Ms. O'Hara moved to recommend passage of Bill 160 on first reading. Seconded by Mr. Kanuha. CHR. DAVID: Ms. O'Hara. Go ahead. MS. O'HARA: This is a very short bill in order to change the definition; and one addition to Section 3, applying it to officers and employees. This was requested by a constituent, and we've heard from that constituent. He's still here, if anyone has questions for Mr. Tucker. It's not the first time I've heard this same concern expressed by constituents, and it didn't seem difficult just to add this language to the Code of Ethics, and I just ask for your support. If you have any questions, I'd like to entertain those. I'd like to hear from my fellow Council Members. CHR. DAVID: Thank you, Ms. O'Hara. Anyone else on the Hilo side wishing to comment? MS. LEE LOY: Yes, Chair. CHR. DAVID: Ms. Lee Loy, go ahead. MS. LEE LOY: Thank you, Chair. I appreciate what Ms. O'Hara is putting this forward because that one specific department seems to have challenges with interpretation and is providing information that sets a lot of the processes back. But I had a more larger question, may be for Corporation Counsel. The way this bill is, I understand. But I applied it, for example, with the Parks department, and they were to identify a park to be opened on July 2020. Most information would direct that the park be opened on July 2020. But is that a truthful statement or an accurate statement? I'm just trying to understand the application a little bit. CHR. DAVID: Ms. Lee Loy, are you asking Corporation Counsel Kamelamela to come forward? MS. LEE LOY: Yeah, that would help me. CHR. DAVID: Thank you. Mr. Kamelamela, please, would you come forward? (Note: At this time, Corporation Counsel Joseph Kamelamela came forward to address the members of the Committee.) CHR. DAVID: Mahalo, Mr. Kamelamela. Please identify yourself for the record. MR. KAMELAMELA: Good afternoon. Joseph Kamelamela. Good afternoon, Chair, and members of the County Council. I'm just going ask Council Member Lee LoyI just want to say—if I heard it right, can you please repeat the question? Page 7 FC -37 June 18, 2018 CHR. DAVID: Ms. Lee Loy. MS. LEE LOY: Thank you. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Mr. Kamelamela. When I read the bill, I understand the definition, and it's very clear, and there's a very bright line. Truthful means stating, telling, or expressing accurate and correct facts. So when I applied that to an opening of a park or the completion of a road project, we often give a date. I'm not sure how that falls into being truthful. I just wanted to hear your thoughts on how normally information—forward. MR. KAMELAMELA: For that specific situation, you know, sometimes information is given, like incorrectly. So I'm doubtful if somebody's going to be, you know, raising that kind of issue. I think they're more interested in something a little bit more material and significant in nature, although it doesn't state that. So I see this at time, you know, it can be difficult to apply, which kind of leads to some other issues that I have. You know, because to do it, depending on what's being brought forward, I can see the potential of people bringing in a lot of complaints before the Board of Ethics. The reason I say that, is only because when a prior Council had adopted subsection 83 (2-83 Hawaii County Code), you know, there's a lot of individuals who had started to file complaints for people being treated courteous, fair, and in an impartial manner. Then what happens and what I see is, you know, it's a whole different area that you get into. It's just an opinion. And then how it relates to the person's job, you know, it may not be really a significant thing. I mean, it gives people the opportunity to complain, but is this the best way to do it? That's one of the issues that I have. The other is, being truthful is sort of dependent on what kind of information you have at a particular point and time. We have situations where things change, and unless people are kept abreast as to what's happening, we're going to be possibly engage in things that, you know, maybe we don't need to be involved with. But yet, it's going to take a lot of people's time to do it. It looks simple, but I think the application also could be creating problems that maybe we shouldn't go into. But that's not my call, you know. I mean, it's a call of the Council as to whether they want to get involved in this type of situation. I'm not too sure that answered everything. But, Council Member Lee Loy, do you have any other questions based on what I said? CHR. DAVID: Ms. Lee Loy. MS. LEE LOY: No. I'm going to yield at this time, and maybe listen to some of my other colleagues. MR. KAMELAMELA: Okay, thank you. Page 8 FC -37 June 18, 2018 CHR. DAVID: Thank you very much. Mr. Kamelamela, could you stay there just in case other Council Members may have some questions? MR. KAMELAMELA: Okay. CHR. DAVID: Thank you. Council Members, any questions regarding Bill 160? Discussion? Mr. Chung, go ahead. MR. CHUNG: Thank you. You know, I had a very dear friend. He passed away a few years ago. I think all of you know him; I'm not going mention his name. A very rough man, and he would always be angry about County government and operations of the County. He would always tell me, "Aaron, you know I always tell the truth, right," and of course, I would sheepishly respond by saying, "Well, the truth as you see it," right? The truth is really a very subjective thing. It's not easily proven or disproved. As Joe stated, putting something like this in the County code will only give rise to more complaints. There was one speaker, who came up here talking about the Police Department and their operations. Really didn't have anything to do about the truth, quite frankly, in my opinion. But nothing would preclude a complaint from being brought—or some officer or employee not being truthful. Now, don't—you know, I hope nobody gets the wrong impression, you know, I'm all for being truthful. In fact, Ms. Lee Loy, over there in Hilo, will attest to this. She and I will often gripe in her office. One or both of us will say at some point, "Why can't guys just tell the f'ing truth? Because it's very, very frustrating when you deal with employees, lying administrators, high-ranking administrators, the public. Everybody has their own slant. Sometimes people make up their own information. It's very frustrating, Very difficult to make decisions on that basis, good decisions. But when it comes down to it, in life you're going to have some people who just cannot tell the truth and you're going to have some people who will adhere to the truth. But at the same time to codify something like this, it's going to be very, very difficult. Probably the easiest thing, would be to say, "Yeah, yeah, okay, let's just vote for this thing and we're all for the truth. I would hate for the newspaper to say that, "Oh there was one dissenting vote, Mr. Chung, because he was against seeking the truth." That wouldn't be the truth, actually. I see we all seek the truth in our own ways. But I just think there's going to be a problem putting this in the County Code because it's so difficult to prove or disprove. That's my take on it. I'll be voting "no." CHR. DAVID: Thank you, Mr. Chung. Council Members, any other comments? Hilo side? Ms. Ruggles, did you want to speak to this? If not, I'll go to Council Members here. Page 9 FC -37 June 18, 2018 MS. RUGGLES: No, I'm good. Thank you. CHR. DAVID: Thank you. Alright, Kona, Council Members, anyone? Ms. Poindexter, go ahead. MS. POINDEXTER: Well, I agree that definitely we should be truthful, but how doI mean, with everybody speaking, I heard some of what our Corporation Counsel said, and of course agree with what Council Member Chung had said, because it all comes down to interpretation. You can call a department and they may tell you what they believe to be true, and then if it was misspoken or misinterpreted, then, you know, there is a problem because somebody will challenge them on that. I mean, we can speak on—when we'reI mean, the last discussion we had about the lava, and how many homes had been burnt. Or giving other data, you know, that maybe the public will go, "Oh God, she lied," you know "That's not the truth." There's a fine line with, you know, the interpretation or what somebody may be saying that they believe to be true. So anyway, it'sI'm not supporting this because there's so many uncertainties and I think it will cause some unintended consequences and a lot of liability for the County itself, and I don't think we need to be going in that direction. We're looking at cost, as well. Anyway, I yield at this time. CHR. DAVID: Thank you, Ms. Poindexter. Anyone else? Oh, Ms. Ruggles, I see your hand. Go ahead. MS. RUGGLES: Yeah, sorry. As soon you asked me, I realized I did have something to say. In response to what was said, I believe that there is that to a certainI understand that sometimes the truth is hard to define and it's hard to point out because usually there's two different sides of something and normally the truth is somewhere in the middle. However, there are time where the truth does exist. There are certain facts. That if somebody is responsible for accurately expressing to another in our capacity as public officials, and if we knowingly tell one something that we know is not true, even within the departments, like how this bill describes, underneath the purview of what would fall under the Ethics Commission, I think that we could work on defining what truth could be and what truth is, if that's a concern. However, I do believe that there is a meaning to truth that is consistent across the board that we can apply for every case. And I will be supporting this amendment. Thank you, Ms. Ruggles. CHR. DAVID: Thank you, Ms. Ruggles. Anyone else? No? Oh, Ms. O'Hara. Go ahead. MS. O'HARA: I just want to remind people that this code that we have before us that I'm attempting to amend this amendment to the existing code is really—it's a policy statement, something to strive for. Now, everything in here—all of the section already has invited different kinds of complaints that have come to the Page 10 FC -37 June 18, 2018 Board of Ethics. It's doesn't resolve an issue, but it just states a policy that we are trying to strive for. I mean, we don't want to say that we're not going to strive for truthful because people can't tell what the truth is. That's not really what this is about. We're defining "truthful." It's very simple; stating, telling, or expressing accurate and correct facts. That's very simple, the definition. Like I said, it's just a policy statement. What we're striving for. I don't think it's going to invite a mammoth landslide of complaints, as Mr. Kamelamela suggested. I don't believe that's going to be the case. But it does state that we as an organization, the County of Hawaii, does respect fact and is fact based, and will try to present the truth as accurately as possible when our constituents, the residents of the County of Hawaii, ask for information. That's all it's really saying. So, I will be supporting. Thank you. CHR. DAVID: Thank you, Ms. O'Hara. Mr. Chung, go ahead. MR. CHUNG: Okay, I'll tell you what would make me more inclined to support something like this, and it would take an amendment. But it has to be along the lines ofI don't know where I put it, you know, in the definition or in the body. Well, first of all, this is not this is more than a policy statement, okay? Because there's recourses that can be had against employees or officers that are deemed not to be truthful or not being truthful. But I would say this, if there's some kind of element of knowingly stating an untrue fact, knowingly now, or being grossly negligent in stating an untrue fact, I'd be more inclined to support something like that. But sometimes people make mistakes in reciting facts. This definition opens that person up to sanctions at the Board of Ethics. But if someone really purposely or grossly negligently brings up a falsehood, yeah, I'd be willing to support something like that. CHR. DAVID: Thank you, Mr. Chung, for that clarification. Council Members, anyone else here? MS. LEE LOY: Chair? CHR. DAVID: Go ahead. MS. LEE LOY: The complaint or the testimony that I heard today has to do specifically with a department or an agency. He relied on information from the department; and in the end, that information that he replied upon kind of went back and forth, which costed him a lot of time, which stalled the development of his business. My concern with this one isn't about being truthful, it's about information that was presented to him that he relied upon. I'd actually like to see that department have a lot more elements within their business dealings with timing; accepting Page 11 FC -37 June 18, 2018 applications, building permits, response to those building permits within 20 or 30 days. We see that at Parks department, where they have timing elements. At Planning department, they have timing elements, where they have to respond in a timely manner. I'm really on the fence on this one because I'd actually like to see more accountability from that particular department than this broad -brush approach, when so many other departments have to respond to applications in a timely manner and provide information to the general public that they rely upon to move their project, their building permits, their zoning forward. Maybe Ms. O'Hara might consider refining this a little bit, and maybe even wedging it into that department as a policy for that department. That's my thoughts right now. CHR. DAVID: Thank you, Ms. Lee Loy. Anyone else here in Kona? MR. CHUNG: Yes. CHR. DAVID: Mr. Chung, go ahead. MR. CHUNG: Thanks for letting me speak again. Aha, Ms. Lee Loy has hit the nail on the head because I think that's really what the speaker was talking about. Not so much truthfulness but it's accuracy of information given to them, and that is a big problem with the County. I think we've all heard horror stories of how people have had to be put through the wringer. Getting misinformation, and information being changed time and time again. I'm not trying to cast aspersion for any department, but we've heard that all to often. I think that's what we should be looking at. But truthfulness, it just doesn't do it for me. I mean, if somebody's willing to change this bill, I'm all ears. But right now, as drafted, I cannot support it. Thank you. CHR. DAVID: Thank you, Mr. Chung. Anyone else? Ms. O'Hara, you want to MS. O'HARA: Oh, yeah. I would love to get the support of my colleagues on this. It is accuracy of information, whether we call it truthful or not. The original language in this bill, truthful is to the best of their ability or knowledge. I mean, that's the original language. It states that. But we're talking about is accuracy. I hate to say it, but it addresses when an employee doesn't do their own due diligence in response to a question or presentation of an application or whatever, and just off the top of their head gives a off-the-cuff opinion, which may not be reflective of code or rule. That is where we run into time delays and unnecessary refusals, et cetera, which are costing the constituents of this County considerable time and money. Page 12 FC -37 June 18, 2018 So I'm not sure that I've really heard an appropriate wording or changes to the resolution, as I've written it. If I can hear that from the rest of you, I would be happy to make modifications, if that makes you more comfortable. I'm a little reluctant, though, to make itdirect it at a specific department, because this isn't just one department where this is occurring. There are others. I think it needs to be more broad than that. I think we should be doing it across the board for the County not just targeting a single department. So that's just my thoughts on it. I am willing to make changes, but I'm not sure that I've heard what those changes need to be, specifically. So we can continue discussing or I can postpone this and try and get some more feedback on different wording. That's my options at this point. Thank you. CHR. DAVID: Thank you, Ms. O'Hara. And if no one else has any questions, I think I'm going to wrap this one up with my final comments on this. Ms. O'Hara, if you're done? Okay. Alright. Listening to all of the comments, especially those of Mr. Chung and Ms. Lee Loy, I find that very concerning that we are attempting to legislate truth. Now I know why. I think it applies to some misinformation that was given by the staff in certain departments. I feel if that is what this is intended for, then it seems to me to be a staffing issue and a procedural issue within the department. Where, I don't believe creating an ordinance or creating a law that defines truthfulness because it says that we know what the truth is. From what I'm hearing, there's all sorts of versions of the truth from everybody's perspective. We already have procedures and processes that—unfortunately, if our constituents or the public have been aggrieved by a department, we have processes that are already in place that they can seek relief. I for one agree that I cannot sincerely believe that this body can legislate truth. Because everything we do have so many different moving parts here, and because of its complicationsI'm all for the truth. I believe that how you view truth, it's a personal thing; but when you're in government, truth can be very vague, I really—if this goes forwardI'm sorry, Ms. O'Hara, I do not have any suggestions on how to amend your bill; you know, a definition of truthful might work. But when you put it in the code section that says that officers and employees shall adhere to the following precepts, and the mandate that we shall be truthful, you know, is basically—reaches far beyond what one, two, and three in that code section speaks to. In my opinion, those other existing subparagraphs, that property and equipment to be treated as public trust are not to be used for personal, that's totally self-explanatory to me; and using your supervisory capacity to intimidate others, that's pretty much clear to me; and treating people in a fair and impartial manner, that's pretty clear. But when it says we shall be truthful—officers and employees Page 13 FC -37 June 18, 2018 shall be truthful, that raises a question in my mind. I feel that if I have a question and so does some of my Council Members, that in its current form, I will not be able to support this. I'm sorry, I don't have any suggestions on how you revise this. That's my opinion, and I really feel strongly. Not that I don't believe in the truth, I think we all believe the in truth. But this is a procedural issue in my mind. With that said, you wanted tooh, Mr. Chung, go ahead. MR. CHUNG: I'm just wondering if Ms. O'Hara would be willing to postpone this, just for a little while. CHR. DAVID: Ms. O'Hara? MS. O'HARA: Chair, I'd like—Ms. Lee Loy has something to say, and then I would like to consider postponement. CHR. DAVID: Thank you very much. Ms. Lee Loy, go ahead. MS. LEE LOY: Thank you. I think we found the boundaries. The boundaries are somewhere between information that the County provided and an individual relied upon, and something that Mr. Chung said, which is gross negligence. I'm hoping that that's good enough feedback back for Ms. O'Hara to maybe refine or retool some of this so that we have a boundary. Mr. Tucker's comments completely resonate with me. I have heard that for better part of 20 years of my professional life with that department, and it really has a lot to do with them having no accountability to responding in a timely manner, responding in writing, or being held accountable to the representations that they make. And I'm hoping that maybe with this and with this conversation that Ms. O'Hara will hear these kinds of suggestions and refine this bill. I yield. CHR. DAVID: Thank you, Ms. Lee Loy. And I see hands Ms. Ruggles' hand is up. Go ahead, Ms. Ruggles. MS. RUGGLES: Thank you. I just want to briefly respond. I believe that while the way that this bill came up was meant to be—was meant to address a specific department. I think that this is a good standard for every department. Every department is here to serve the public, and this is a way to hold those departments accountable, even if it is an honest mistake. Even if someone did make an honest mistake, it still adversely impacts the public in very big ways. It causes them a lot of strife. It can cause a lot of money. Lost money, lost time that they'll never get back, even if it was an honest mistake. Then they can go to the Ethics Commission and just say it was an honest mistake; and what happens, happens. But if it wasn't an honest mistake, if they were actually knowingly giving untrue information to someone, they need to be held accountable. It shouldn't be for just this department. I think it should be for every department. Page 14 FC -37 June 18, 2018 So we're here to serve the public, we're here to be accountable to the public, and I think this is a good amendment for that. So I just wanted to say that. Thank you. CHR. DAVID: Thank you, Ms. Ruggles. And I think on that, I thinkI just wanted to make a note. I think that after the Chair speaks, we normally that concludes the item on the agenda. But I've given Mr. Chung some leeway and also Ms. Ruggles, I just wanted to make that note. Ms. O'Hara, go ahead. MS. O'HARA: Yes, I will move to postpone this bill. I will make every intent to come back with language that reflects this discussion. I am concerned about the adverse impacts, and incorrect or inaccurate information can be given for a number of reasons. It can be an honest mistake, but it can also be because the employee did not do the due diligence, kind of gross negligence, or can be intentional. There are various reasons why that may occur. So I fully agree that it's better to articulate this change in the Ethics Code more thoroughly. I will ask for a postponement. CHR. DAVID: Ms. O'Hara, to what day? Indefinitely or call of the Chair? MS. O'HARA: Call of the Chair. CHR. DAVID: Thank you. And do I have a second? MS. POINDEXTER: Second. Vote on Motion to Ms. O'Hara moved to postpone Bill 160 to the call of Postpone: the Chair. Seconded by Ms. Poindexter and carried (Approved) by the following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Eoff, Kanuha, Lee Loy, O'Hara, Poindexter, Richards, Ruggles, and Chair David — 8. Noes: None. Absent: Committee Member Chung — 1. Excused: None. CHR. DAVID: Thank you. And I believe that concludes the Finance Committee meeting. Page 15 FC -37 June 18, 2018 ADJOURN- There being no further business, at 2:29 p.m., Mr. Kanuha moved to adjourn MENT: the meeting. Seconded by Ms. Poindexter and carried by the following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Chung, Eoff, Kanuha, Lee Loy, O'Hara, Poindexter, Richards, Ruggles, and Chair David — 9. Noes: None. Absent: None. Excused: None. CHR. DAVID: Thank you. We are adjourned. Approved: Ms. Maile Medeiros David, Chair Finance Committee MD/na (Date) Page 16