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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMIN FC 2018/08/21 2016-2018Committee on Finance 41" Session West Hawaii Civic Center 74-5044 Ane Keohokalole Highway, Building A Kailua-Kona, Hawai i August 21, 2018 CALL TO The regular meeting of the Committee on Finance was called to order at ORDER: 10:30 a.m., in the Council Chambers, Hilo, by Ms. Maile Medeiros David, Chair. ROLL CALL: Present: Ms. Maile Medeiros David, Chair Ms. Karen Eoff, Vice Chair Mr. Aaron S. Y. Chung, Member Mr. Dru Mamo Kanuha, Member Ms. Susan L. K. Lee Loy, Member Ms. Eileen O'Hara, Member (via videoconference from Hilo) Ms. Valerie T. Poindexter, Member Mr. Herbert "Tim" Richards, III, Member Absent & Excused: Ms. Jennifer Ruggles, Member STATEMENTS The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, FROM THE Statements from the Public on Agenda Items. PUBLIC ON AGENDA ITEMS: The following individuals registered to speak and came forward when called by the Chair: Abolghassem Abraham Sadegh Ku Kahakalau: Sandra Demoruelle: Jerry Warren: Reginal Lee: (representing Kohanaiki Shores) Keoni Fox: (Representing Ho`omalu Ka`u) Bill 160 (Comm. 959), comment. Res. 656-18 (Comm. 1020), in support. Res. 654-18 (Comm. 1018), in opposition. Res. 654-18 (Comm. 1018), in opposition. Res. 655-18 (Comm. 1019), in support. Res. 655-18 (Comm. 1019), in support. Res. 654-18 (Comm. 1018), in support. FC -41 August 21, 2018 Mason Myrmo: Res. 655-18 (Comm. 1019), in support. CHR. DAVID: I don't believe we have any other testifiers at this time, so, I am closing public testimony and moving on to communications. Mr. Clerk, could you do Communication 15.37 COMMUNI- The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, CATIONS: Communications. Comm. 15.37: REPORT OF FUND TRANSFERS AUTHORIZED: JUNE 16 — 30, 2018 AND JULY 1 — 15, 2018 From Controller Kay Oshiro, dated July 17, 2018. CHR. DAVID: Thank you very much. I just want to note that we have Nancy Kelly available in our Hilo Chambers for any questions. Vote on Ms. Poindexter moved to close file on Comm. 15.37. Comm. 15.37: Seconded by Ms. Eoff and carried by the following voice Filed vote: Ayes: Committee Members Chung, Eoff, Kanuha, Lee Loy, O'Hara, Poindexter, Richards, and Chair David — 8. Noes: None. Absent: Committee Member Ruggles — 1. Excused: None. CHR. DAVID: Mr. Clerk, proceed with Resolution 654-18. ORDER OF The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, RESOLUTIONS: Order of Resolutions. Res. 654-18: AWARDS A PUBLIC ACCESS, OPEN SPACE, AND NATURAL RESOURCES PRESERVATION MAINTENANCE STEWARDSHIP GRANT TO HO`OMALU KA`U Approves a grant of $58,600 to Ho`omalu Ka`u, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization, to protect, preserve, and restore the Kahud Olohu, Kaunamano, Ka`u property (Tax Map Key: 9-5-012:005), pursuant to Section 10-16 of the Hawaii County Charter. Reference: Comm. 1018 Intr. by: Ms. David Motion to Approve: Ms. Poindexter moved to recommend adoption of Res. 654-18. Seconded by Ms. Eoff. Page 2 FC -41 Vote on Res. 654-18 (Approved) August 21, 2018 CHR. DAVID: Any discussion, Council Members? Ms. O'Hara, anything you want to say? MS. O'HARA: No. CHR. DAVID: Okay, otherwise, based on—thank you, Mr. Fox, for your testimony on this grant. Mr. Kanuha? MR. KANUHA: No, Madam Chair, this is in your district, so, I'd rather hear from you about supporting this grant. CHR. DAVID: Thank you. Basically, I wholeheartedly support this maintenance grant because Mr. Fox graciously gave us the historical background of this purchase and how valuable it is. I would just ask my Council Members to support this maintenance grant so they can continue to malama `diva in this area. So, mahalo. Ms. Lee Loy, go ahead. MS. LEE LOY: Thank you. I heard Mr. Fox talk about doing some Makahiki games, hopefully about three years down the road. And maybe as an incentive, we could have members of the Council challenge members of the community. I think that would be a lot of fun and be a huge opportunity to raise more funds. So, thank you for doing your work, I'm really excited for what you bring to what is a very special place in Ka`u. CHR. DAVID: Mahalo, Ms. Lee Loy. Anyone else? Seeing none, all those in favor of approving Resolution 654-18, please say "aye." The motion to recommend adoption of Res. 654-18 was carried by the following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Eoff, Kanuha, Lee Loy, O'Hara, Poindexter, and Chair David – 6. Noes: None. Absent: Committee Members Chung, Richards, and Ruggles – 3. Excused: None. CHR. DAVID: And for the record, Mr. Richards had to leave at 11:00 for an appointment or a telephone conference, so, he's going to be unavailable for a little while. Okay, Mr. Clerk, Resolution 655-18. Page 3 FC -41 August 21, 2018 Res. 655-18: AWARDS A PUBLIC ACCESS, OPEN SPACE, AND NATURAL RESOURCES PRESERVATION MAINTENANCE STEWARDSHIP GRANT TO KOHANAIKI "GHANA Approves a grant of $25,480 to Kohanaiki `Ghana, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization, to protect, preserve, and restore `O`oma Beach in North Kona (Tax Map Key: 7-3-009:004), pursuant to Section 10-16 of the Hawaii County Charter. Reference: Comm. 1019 Intr. by: Ms. Eoff Motion to Approve: Ms. Eoff moved to recommend adoption of Res. 655-18. Seconded by Ms. Lee Loy. CHR. DAVID: Ms. Eoff. MS. EOFF: Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wanted to say thank you to the testifiers that came forward today. Actually, not just for this one, but all three of these open space stewardship grants. I think we're starting to see that this opportunity is not only one to preserve open space and protect the beauty of our land, but also provides the opportunity for cultural education. And I'd like to thank all of the different testifiers here today that brought that out, because I think our community will definitely benefit from all of these programs. So, I'd just like to urge my Council Members to support this. As you can see by one of the pictures in the collage that Mason gave us, this land is adjoining to the Kohanaiki Development and Beach Park. So, it's kind of like a natural extension of the beach park, and it's used that way. But, it provides kind of a different experience, and I just thank the partners, including Kohanaiki Shores for all of their help with the security issues and maintenance issues, and now providing an opportunity for a nursery on their property that will help benefit the restoration of the O `oma shoreline native strand vegetation. So, I think this is a great example of partnering and how these grants can help enhance the beauty of the open space fund and the protection of these properties. Mahalo, everybody, and thank you for your support. CHR. DAVID: Thank you, Ms. Eoff. Anyone else? Mr. Kanuha, go ahead. MR. KANUHA: I absolutely fully support this. Mahalo to all of you guys who do take care of our `aina and very happy to give these monies to such worthy community groups. You guys do a great job. Just kind of a process thing, maybe Hamana, you could answer this, or maybe somebody on the Council. When do we get an update of the monies being used? It's always great to see the progress being made on these PONC (Public Access, Open Space, and Natural Resources Page 4 FC -41 August 21, 2018 Preservation Commission) purchases. When does that update happen? Did we just go through that? (Note: At this time, Property Manager Hamana Ventura came forward to address the members of the Committee.) MR. VENTURA: Good morning members of the Council, Hamana Ventura, Property Manager. Actually, as outlined under the grant agreements, the steward applicants themselves provide midyear reports to Parks and Recreation. So, in the event that you need to review their progress report, Reid Sewake, Business Manager, has all of their reports in file. Mahalo. MR. KANUHA: Thank you. CHR. DAVID: Thank you, Mr. Ventura and Mr. Kanuha. Anyone else? Ms. O'Hara, do you wish to say anything? MS. O'HARA: No, thank you, Chair. CHR. DAVID: Alright, then seeing no other discussion, all those in favor of approving Resolution 655-18, please say "aye." Vote on Res. 655-18: The motion to recommend adoption of Res. 655-18 was (Approved) carried by the following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Chung, Eoff, Kanuha, Lee Loy, O'Hara, Poindexter, and Chair David — 7. Noes: None. Absent: Committee Members Richards, and Ruggles — 2. Excused: None. CHR. DAVID: Alright, Mr. Clerk, Resolution 656-18, please. Res. 656-18: AWARDS A PUBLIC ACCESS, OPEN SPACE, AND NATURAL RESOURCES PRESERVATION MAINTENANCE STEWARDSHIP GRANT TO POHAHA I KA LANI Approves a grant of $74,250 to P6haha I Ka Lani, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization, to protect, preserve, and restore the Waipi`o Valley Lookout in Hamakua (Tax Map Key: 4-8-004:006), pursuant to Section 10-16 of the Hawaii County Charter. Reference: Comm. 1020 Intr. by: Ms. Poindexter Page 5 FC -41 August 21, 2018 Motion to Approve: Ms. Poindexter moved to recommend adoption of Res. 656-18. Seconded by Ms. Eoff. CHR. DAVID: Discussion, Ms. Poindexter. MS. POINDEXTER: I'd just like to say thank you to that group, P6hand I Ka Lani, and the wonderful things that they have already done with restoring that area and bringing it back to life. So, I ask for your support and if you'd like to see their previous report, you can get it online on our site, and they have what they did with their first grant that they received in 2016. So, I ask for your support. Thank you. CHR. DAVID: Thank you very much. Anyone else, Council Members? Seeing none, all those in favor, please say "aye." Vote on Res. 656-18: The motion to recommend adoption of Res. 656-18 was (Approved) carried by the following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Chung, Eoff, Kanuha, Lee Loy, O'Hara, Poindexter, and Chair David — 7. Noes: None. Absent: Committee Members Richards, and Ruggles — 2. Excused: None. CHR. DAVID: Thank you. Before we move on to Bills for Ordinances, I want to apologize. I said that Nancy Kelly was in our Hilo Chambers available to answer questions, but it's actually Nancy Crawford and J Yoshimoto. So, sorry. Alright, Mr. Clerk, Bills for Ordinances, Bill 160, please. BILLS FOR The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, ORDINANCES: Bills for Ordinances. Page 6 FC -41 August 21, 2018 Bill 160: AMENDS CHAPTER 2, ARTICLE 15, OF THE HAWAII COUNTY CODE 1983 (2016 EDITION, AS AMENDED), RELATING TO THE CODE OF ETHICS Amends Section 2-83 by adding a definition for "truthful" and requiring that officers and employees of the County be truthful when performing their duties and dealing with the public. Reference: Comm. 959 Intr. by: Ms. O'Hara Postponed: June 18 and August 7, 2018 (Note: There is a motion by Ms. O'Hara, seconded by Mr. Kanuha, to recommend passage of Bill 160 on first reading.) ; and Comm. 959.1: From Council Member Eileen O'Hara, dated July 12, 2018, transmitting proposed amendments to Bill 160. Motion to Amend: Ms. O'Hara moved to amend Bill 160 with the contents of Comm. 959.1. Seconded by Ms. Poindexter. CHR. DAVID: Ms. O'Hara. MS. O'HARA: Thank you. There were some changes made to the language, which were meant to reflect the discussion that we had at our last meeting with regard to the wording of this changed Code. It's not significant, but I mean it may be significant, but it's not elaborate in terms of the changes. Section 1, "The purpose of this ordinance is to add language to specify that in the course of discharging their duties, County officers and employees shall provide accurate and factual information to the public." We have, in the other sections, deleted some language and so, there is no longer a definition in Section 2. So, that's what the bill will look like if approved. We've received about four testimonies in support of this bill, including, or in addition to one from the individual who encouraged this bill to be written and passed, and that would be Rob Tucker. Rob Tucker felt that when he had an issue before the Ethics Board, that the ethics board basically opined that the Ethics Code is incomplete in that it does not address the issue of truthfulness. That was his understanding of the discussion he had with the Ethics Board when he had a case before them a few months back. So, that's what drove this bill to Council and I let you consider it. And if there are any other changes, let me know. Thank you. CHR. DAVID: Thank you, Ms. O'Hara. Council Members, any more discussion? No? On the amendment, yes. Ms. Poindexter. Page 7 FC -41 August 21, 2018 MS. POINDEXTER: I just had a question because Council Member O'Hara just said that was his understanding of either why they couldn't rule, but I hate to say, is that a true understanding? But, is thatI mean did we check with the Ethics Board if that indeed was what he said was his understanding? That's my question. Because I know it's just one-sided, so, I just—and the reason why you said you put this forward was because of what he stated. So, can I ask Council Member O'Hara if she checked? CHR. DAVID: Yes. Ms. O'Hara, Ms. Poindexter has a question. MS. O'HARA: I understand the question. We tried to review the minutes from the ethics committee and there was an extensive back and forth again. The meaning of various comments is, of course, up to interpretation, but that did seem to be the gist of the back and forth between Mr. Tucker and the board members. MS. POINDEXTER: I'll yield. CHR. DAVID: Thank you. Anyone else has any comments? Mr. Chung? No? Okay. Mr. Kamelamela, do you want to say something? (Note: At this time, Corporation Counsel Joseph Kamelamela came forward to address the members of the Committee.) MR. KAMELAMELA: Joseph Kamelamela, Corporation Counsel. Good morning, Chair, and members of the Council. I've seen the amendment and from what I believe is the purpose of the change in the Code of Ethics was basically, it deals with a very limited circumstance, and this situation where one person and maybe three supporters want to ensure that this gets in. Now, I think the amendment is a little bit better, but I have several concerns when we try to add something to the County Code, which is a carve out of a very small fraction of people that we're talking about. And, because of that, you know, it made me think, there are other processes that are available and so my issue, which is actually the County Council's issue, is whether at this time, it is necessary to have this change. Because right now, we have processes where if there's an issue, then people will file a claim or a lawsuit against the County. If there's an issue with employees with regard to behavior or conduct, then you can complain to the supervisors, and I have been in cases where people have been terminated for certain things. So, it's either we—if it's something that is a misconduct, then a person can be disciplined. If it's just behavior that needs to be corrected, then there is a performance plan that is put out there. That's just something that's available. My concern, too, with something like this is that any one of us can be brought before the Board of Ethics, which means not only us but employees that's on the Page 8 FC -41 August 21, 2018 line have to be taken out of their job because then it becomes a he said, she said situation, and I'm not too sure if it's necessary at this time to go down that road. So, that's my concern. When people are taken out of their jobs, then they have to not only prepare for the Board of Ethics, but I've known many employees that we would have really represent, but they prepare. They're scared, you know, because they don't know what the future holds for them. I don't like the idea of something like this only because it impacts a lot of people and this is only dealing with a small segment of the community that actually is complaining. I've seen a lot of legislation that dealt with something much broader, which kind of makes sense, but something like this doesn't make sense to me. But, you're the County Council, it's within your prerogative as to whether you believe this is necessary to pass at this time. Thank you. CHR. DAVID: Thank you, Mr. Kamelamela. Anyone else want to comment? Alright, are we ready? Yes, on the amendment. No? Alright, all those in favor of amending Bill 160 with the contents of Communication 959. 1, please say cc n aye. Vote on Motion to The motion to amend Bill 160 with the contents of Amend: Comm. 959.1 was carried by the following voice (Approved) vote: Ayes: Committee Members Chung, Eoff, Kanuha, Lee Loy, O'Hara, Poindexter, and Chair David — 7. Noes: None. Absent: Committee Members Richards, and Ruggles — 2. Excused: None. CHR. DAVID: Now we're back to Bill 160 as amended with Communication 959.1. Council Members, discussion? Ms. O'Hara, go ahead, and then I'll go to Mr. Chung. MS. O'HARA: Well, not much more to add. The amendment speaks for itself and I understand Mr. Kamelamela's concerns because he believes this is focused on a small percentage of the population that might be impacted by this change. I don't know how small that is. I don't know how we can make that assessment even, because a lot of people have complaints about the factual and truthful responses that they get from the County, and I've seen it occur a lot in our emergency response experience. So, I'm not saying that it's necessarily always the case or anything of that nature, it's just it does provide some protection to the public in the event that there is information that's either being distorted or withheld or in other ways, not presented in a factual and accurate manner. That's Page 9 FC -41 August 21, 2018 all this amendment to Code really does. So, I ask for your support in this. This was constituent driven and I leave it up to you guys to discuss whether you feel this is a necessary change to the Code. Thank you. CHR. DAVID: Thank you, Ms. O'Hara. Mr. Chung. I'm sorry, I thought you wanted to talk. Okay, any other Council Members while we wait? Okay, then Mr. Chung, would you like a short recess? Thank you very much, we're in recess. Recess: At 11:20 a.m., the Chair called for a recess. Reconvene: The meeting reconvened at 11:22 a.m. CHR. DAVID: Alright, Council Members, I'm calling the Finance Committee out of recess. Mr. Chung, go ahead. MS. O'HARA: Excuse me, Chair, Aaron's mic is not working. CHR. DAVID: Hang on, we have some technical issues. I'm going to take a short recess. Hang on. Recess: At 11:23 a.m., the Chair called for a recess. Reconvene: The meeting reconvened at 11:27 a.m. CHR. DAVID: Alright, Council Members, we're back online and Mr. Chung, go ahead. MR. CHUNG: I certainly understand the rationale behind this Code amendment, but I think it's really too subjective in nature. Let me just tell you why—what's good about it first. I think one of the worse things that we as a County or government can do, is give people wrong information, right? I think we can all agree with that, and particularly, if it's going to delay a process or heighten people's expectations about a possible outcome and then just move the goal post right before they're ready to kick the ball, the field goal. That's not right. I think this was what Ms. O'Hara's amendment is trying to achieve, but it's just so subjective in nature. It comes down to personal codes of conduct. I think we all try to do, in the discharge of our duties, try to do things, try to disseminate correct information, factual information, to the best of our ability, which is what's provided here. What I'm worried about is when you have really contentious issues, particularly on the Council level. That's where a lot of things are discussed. And a lot of times you have differing facts presented, and it's going to open up this body to a lot of undue litigation, I think. I really do believe that, especially with this Page 10 FC -41 August 21, 2018 provision, which says, "including identification of any reference authority." I mean, I like the idea, I certainly do, but I just think it's too cumbersome, too subjective, not workable, opening us up to too much possible litigation or time at the Board of Ethics. I cross-referenced what we have right now with the enabling legislation, which is provided in the County Charter, and what we have right now is verbatim. It's exactly what was provided in the County Charter. This is something new, and it's not to say that whatever was provided in the County Charter is exclusive. No, we can provide for things, but everything else really has to do with misuse of properties, conflicts of interest, and those are all appropriate for the Code of Ethics. This is something that should be put in, if I have to take a guess or make up something, a code of conduct. Even if we did enact something like that, I don't know if I'd really be too keen on it. So, I'm not against the idea, I just think it's just notI just don't feel good about it. Thank you. I'm going to be voting— CHR. DAVID: Thank you, Mr. Chung. Ms. Lee Loy, go ahead. MS. LEE LOY: Thank you, Chair. I agree exactly where all of this is going. I don't like the ambiguity of just someone feeling that they were wronged and are able to file an ethics complaint. But, I want to take a little bit of a different approach. A few weeks back, we just sat at the Charter Commission, and if that body is taking a comprehensive look at the Charter, I'm hoping that they can filter down some other suggested edits to areas within our Code that would complement areas within the Charter Commission. So, I'm not going to be supporting this at this time because I think we have a real opportunity with the Charter Commission taking a look at the context of everything we do within government and hopefully, giving us areas that can be improved within the various sections of our Code. I completely agree with the intent. I think we just have some other tools in our tool belt right now, especially with members of our Charter Commission, and that's where I stand. CHR. DAVID: Thank you, Ms. Lee Loy. Anyone else? Mr. Chung. MR. CHUNG: Thank you. Can you hear me? I just noticed Ms. Ruggles sitting next to me again. I'm very happy to see her here again, but, I'm just wondering from a procedural standpoint, did anything happen over the last hour or so that has changed her mind on the position that she was concerned about? I'm just kind of curious because it really has to do with process and procedure. CHR. DAVID: Thank you, Mr. Chung, and I think that was a question that we were all—thank you for asking that. Ms. Ruggles, if you would like to respond. Page 11 FC -41 August 21, 2018 MS. RUGGLES: Basically, I was told that I needed to be excused from the Chair, but I'm waiting for Corporation Counsel's written response to my letter that I sent to him this morning. So, until he advises me in writing that I do not have a conflict of interest and that I cannot abstain, I believe that I should be able to abstain and cite the precautionary principle. CHR. DAVID: Mr. Kamelamela. (Note: At this time, Corporation Counsel Joseph Kamelamela came forward to address the members of the Committee.) MR. KAMELAMELA: Good morning, Chair, and members of the Committee, Joseph Kamelamela, Corporation Counsel. Just a little bit of background, I've checked my e-mail, I had my office check my e-mail. I did receive the e-mail from Council Member Ruggles, I don't know, sometime after nine o'clock when I was here. Attached to the e-mail was a document that was at least 300 pages. I didn't have time to look at it, but from what I understand, just from the discussion here, there seems to be the implication that this whole body is illegitimate, which I disagree with. Point two, I have provided an opinion on the subject indicating that as far as I'm concerned, and kind of fine tuning my old opinion here, that under the laws of the state of the federal government, I can't really say how you're going to be criminally prosecuted. As far as I know, what happens here, international law doesn't apply. MS. RUGGLES: Mr. Kamelamela? MR. KAMELAMELA: Point three. Wait, point three— Point of Order: MS. RUGGLES: Point of order. MR. KAMELAMELA: I'm trying to get to first, the background. I mean, it's up to the Chair whether you want me to continue because I wanted to provide background. CHR. DAVID: Sorry, Mr. Kamelamela. What is your point? MS. RUGGLES: The question here is whether or not I can abstain. It's not about the content of the letter. MR. KAMELAMELA: So, in reviewing the rules, my understanding of the process here is that you have to vote yes or no. Silence is okay, but that's going to be counted as a yes vote. Now, when you abstain, you're not representing your district. That's why there is a reason for the rule. That's why it's a yes, no, Page 12 FC -41 August 21, 2018 kanalua, or silence. Abstention, you're not representing your district. It has to be something. So yes, you shouldn't abstain. You know, fortunately, you had listened to the prior—to give the courtesy of excusing yourself, but your presence here is not going to move the body forward. Now, one last point, it was interesting in my discussions with people in my office that you had actually had your private attorney write a letter with the attachments. So, it's your option. You can either listen to what I'm telling you now, or listen to your private attorney. You listen to your private attorney knowing that I've already informed you that the possibility of you being criminally prosecuted under federal and state law is zero, and by listening to your private counsel, if you choose to, that's your right, then not to politicized things, then, you're not listening to your district, which is kind of concerning to me. MS. RUGGLES: What is concerning to me is that we are discussing this in public when I requested a response in writing and I find it to be a violation of attorney-client privilege here, and not only that, but disrespectful. I would appreciate it if could, please, consider the letter before responding, and submit your response to me in writing, as my counsel in my capacity as a Council Member here. My question to you now, is, yes or no, can I abstain? MR. KAMELAMELA: I had provided you an answer, but actually, Council Member Ruggles, you're the one that brought the issue publicly. You had a private attorney who may want an opinion. I'm just addressing your private attorney's issue, which I disagree with publicly. MS. RUGGLES: The point of the matter here is moving forward, as much as you want to go to the content of the letter that you haven't had a chance to read yet, can I abstain? MR. KAMELAMELA: I already said no, you cannot because I think by abstaining, you're not voting for your district. MS. RUGGLES: And you're not making a political decision for myself, right now? MR. KAMELAMELA: You're asking me something, this is my opinion at this time. If I find something that I think is contrary, I would let you know. But, you're asking me to deal with something which I think I can, knowing the rules and knowing some of the processes that I feel comfortable and confident that based on the rules and my understanding that you cannot abstain. MS. RUGGLES: Okay, that is your formal and professional advice? MR. KAMELAMELA: At this time, yes. Page 13 FC -41 August 21, 2018 MS. RUGGLES: Thank you for the clarity. CHR. DAVID: Thank you, Mr. Kamelamela. Mr. Chung. MR. CHUNG: To that point, first of all, I agree with Mr. Kamelamela. It was something that was brought up by Ms. Ruggles, and it needed to be addressed. I'm still perplexed as to what we can and cannot do together as a body. I'm glad to see her back. I've tried to persuade her, at least on several occasions during the course of discussion, to please reconsider her position, but I just don't know what to do. At first, it seems that she's maybe concerned or giving deference to some claim that was raised in an e-mail that she received and she disseminated to others. I think we're all familiar with those claims, but at the same time, I'm sure she's conflicted. She ran for office under the laws of the State of Hawai'i, took an oath of office, which pledged her adherence to various constitutions in the Charters. I'm guessing, I can't recall what the language is, but it all presupposes adherence to the laws of the State of Hawai'i and the United States of America. I don't know whatI still don't know what her point was when she brought it up, whether she wants to separate herself from this body until Mr. Kamelamela comes up with a formal opinion in that regard, in which case, she would be erring on the side of caution, okay? I can understand that. But now she's back, she's participating as a member of this body, a body which she is concerned about in terms of the legitimacy thereof. So now, are you now going to continue participating as a member of this body while you await Mr. Kamelamela's opinion? That's a little bit different from the position you had taken earlier. I'm just kind of curious and it's very important to me because we're dealing with the legitimacy of a body. If you take a position today that you believe that you're not a part of this board, then it just makes no sense to me. Can you just help me out here? MS. RUGGLES: Yes, we all took an oath of office and I'm concerned that I may be in violation of my oath of office. So, until I'm assured by Mr. Kamelamela in writing that I'm not in violation of our oath of office that I took to support and defend the Constitution, then I would like to proceed with caution. And I have a question for you now, Mr. Chung. Are you advising me to not do this action in your capacity as an attorney? MR. CHUNG: I'm not your attorney and I'm not providing any advice to you. All I want to know is what your personal position is going to be so that we can move forward properly as a whole. That's all. I'm in no way, shape or form providing you any advice. So, at first you were here then you left, and then you're back here again. I'm just really confused because if you're, simply put, if you're going to await an opinion from the Corporation Counsel and you want to Page 14 FC -41 August 21, 2018 participate as you have been doing all this time, I have no problem. But, if you would prefer to wait for his opinion because of your concerns, then I have objections of you staying here because it's almost like any other member of the public could come and sit between Mr. Kanuha and myself. That's not how it works. I would prefer you staying here and just await Mr. Kamelamela's opinion, but, I still don't know your position. CHR. DAVID: Thank you, Mr. Chung. I want to go to MS. RUGGLES: I'm awaiting a written opinion. In my opinion, an abstention is cautious. But, since Mr. Kamelamela has advised me that I cannot abstain, then I will be taking the next course of action to be cautious until Mr. Kamelamela gives his written response back to me. I guess I will have to excuse myself. CHR. DAVID: Thank you very much. Ms. Poindexter, I know you wanted to make a comment. MS. POINDEXTER: Yes, I just wanted to ask Council Member Ruggles to look at Rule number 10, the voting because it's real clear there about voting either yes or no. And if we do kanalua, they'll come back to you and you still have to say kanalua yes or no. So, that would be part of the rules and the requirements. And if I'm not mistaken, you just said you would prefer excusing yourself. So, all I ask is that from here going forward, if you're still going to excuse yourself, just follow the rules on providing the Chair of the Committee or the Council with a memorandum of excuse. Thank you. CHR. DAVID: Thank you, Ms. Poindexter. Okay, I thinkI apologize, Ms. O'Hara for diverting from the current agenda item. Ms. Ruggles, you're excused. Thanks. Where were we? I think we were discussing the proposed Bill 160, as amended, and—is Ms. O'Hara back in the room? MS. O'HARA: Yes, I am and I would like to speak when you want to give me the mic. CHR. DAVID: Okay, I'm sorry. Go ahead. MS. O'HARA: I'm sorry for the diversion. I'm still kind of confused as to why we're dealing with all of that. But regardless, let's move forward. This is not a major change. I realize that Mr. Chung feels it may open us up to additional lawsuits. I'm not so sure that's really the case. This language is perfunctory in my opinion, and it's just something that my constituents, as well as the Board of Ethics felt might help to expand the Ethics Code. So, I just ask for your support. I believe we're on the verge of doing the vote. So that's all I had to say. Thank you. Page 15 FC -41 August 21, 2018 CHR. DAVID: Thank you, Ms. O'Hara. Any other Council Members wish to comment? No? Okay. I believe we have—Ms. Lee Loy's out of the room. Alright, all in favor of Bill 160, as amended with the contents of Communication 959.1, please say, "aye." Vote on Bill 160: The motion to recommend passage of Bill 160, as amended Draft 2 to Draft 2, on first reading was carried by the following (Approved) voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Eoff, Kanuha, O'Hara, Poindexter, and Chair David – 5. Noes: Committee Member Chung – 1. Absent: Committee Members Lee Loy, Richards, and Ruggles – 3. Excused: None. CHR. DAVID: Can I have a motion, please, to adjourn? ADJOURN- There being no further business, at 11:51 a.m., Ms. Poindexter moved to adjourn MENT: the meeting. Seconded by Mr. Kanuha and carried by the following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Chung, Eoff, Kanuha, O'Hara, Poindexter, and Chair David – 6. Noes: None. Absent: Committee Members Lee Loy, Richards, and Ruggles – 3. Excused: None. CHR. DAVID: We are adjourned. Finance Committee MD/jm /o -a (Date) Page 16