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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMIN EMC 2017/10/03 2016-2018Committee on Environmental Management 7th Session Hawaii County Building 25 Aupuni Street Hilo, Hawaii October 3, 2017 CALL TO The regular meeting of the Committee on Environmental Management ORDER: was called to order at 10:04 a.m., in the Council Chambers, Hilo, by Eileen O'Hara, Chair. ROLL CALL: Present: Ms. Eileen O'Hara, Chair Mr. Herbert M. "Tim" Richards, III, Vice Chair Mr. Aaron S. Y. Chung, Member Ms. Maile Medeiros David, Member Ms. Karen Eoff, Member Mr. Dru Mamo Kanuha, Member Ms. Susan L. K. Lee Loy, Member Ms. Valerie T. Poindexter, Member Ms. Jennifer Ruggles, Member STATEMENTS The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, FROM THE Statements from the Public on Agenda Items. PUBLIC ON AGENDA ITEMS: The Chair called Jon Olson, who registered to speak in support of Comm. 451 and 452 and came forward when called. CHR. O'HARA: Alright, seeing no more testifiers signed up, can we proceed, County Clerk, by reading in Communication 451? COMMUNI- The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, CATIONS: Communications. Comm. 451: REQUESTS A PRESENTATION BY LOUISE ECONOMY AND TRACY WIEGNER ON RAINFALL DRIVEN SHIFTS IN STAPHYLOCOCCUS AUREUS IN HILO BAY, HAWAII From Council Member Eileen O'Hara, dated September 5, 2017. (Note: Comm. 451.1, dated September 28, 2017 from Council Member Eileen O'Hara, was circulated.) EMC -7 October 3, 2017 Motion to Close File: Mr. Richards moved to close file on Comm. 451 Seconded by Ms. Lee Loy. CHR. O'HARA: Our presenters are ready to go and the PowerPoint is on the screen, and we have a handout of the same. So, take it away. (Note: At this time, graduate student Louise Economy and her advisor Tracy Wiegner came forward to address the members of the Committee. For viewing of the subject presentation, see the DVD copy of the meeting proceedings on file in the Clerk's Office. A copy of the PowerPoint presentation is made a part of the record, see Comm. 451.1.) CHR. O'HARA: Thank you very much for that presentation, very well done. I'm going to open up for questions from the Council Members on that presentation. Anyone? Mr. Richards. MR. RICHARDS: Thank you, Chair. Lots of questions, but that's probably expected. Just a couple of things, I'm intrigued by the work that you've been doing. These things aren't numbered as far as page, but the—where it says, "staph aureus is present in forest soils." On there, you have a graph where it says, "ungulate versus ungulate -free." Am I reading this correctly where there's more bacteria in ungulate -free? MS. ECONOMY: Yes, so we did find this. This was an intern project, that is correct. However, there is no significant difference because the ranges overlap. So, if you look at the values, they're between zero and one, so, they are pretty low. We did have a small sample size, which could also have led to this, but there's no difference between our MR. RICHARDS: No statistical difference? MS. ECONOMY: Yeah. MR. RICHARDS: Okay. Alright, and then with your, I'm going to use the term bloom of staph in the bay, when did you sample after a rain episode? Is it immediate? Is it 24 hours? 48 hours? MS. ECONOMY: So, how we did that was we would sample in the morning at all -times. We always sampled at sunrise and then as far as looking at a rain event, we would see from that time of sampling, 24 hours prior, and we'd add up the rain, or we would look for the peak stream flow within the 24 hours prior to sampling. So, that's just a blanket number for the 24 hours prior to sampling. We didn't sample, specifically, like six hours after we saw a peak on the hydrograph. Page 2 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 MR. RICHARDS: Have you looked at trying to sample hourly or every two hours during a rain episode? Because staph, you get into your logarithmic growth very quickly, and have you considered that part of your increase might be a growth response to nutritional—nutrition being more available, bacterial growth? I'm intrigued by this. MS. ECONOMY: Yeah, so we have definitely thought about that. The thing, first of all, it's very hard for us to sample hourly because there's so much work that goes into these samples. MR. RICHARDS: Understand. But you do understand my question on that? MS. ECONOMY: Right. So, it could be due to just added nutrients into the bay and that's spiking the growth of staph. I have talked about this with Dr. Strauch, and he said that though that might be a thing to consider, we see that when we do sample upstream, we're finding the staph, and we do a sample on the landscape, we are finding staph, suggesting that it is moving downstream. Another thing to consider is that when these bacteria go into the environments, they shouldn't they are—the sun also impacts them, so as they persist, they should be reducing in number and not increasing. MS. WIEGNER: The other thing that we've noticed is that the CHR. O'HARA: I'm sorry, Tracy, can you please just say your name? MS. WIEGNER: Sure, I'm Tracy Wiegner from UH (University of Hawai`i), Hilo Marine Science Department. One of the other things that we do know from previous work is that the bay flushes out pretty quick following storm events, so, that water isn't stagnating in the bay. We find that within three or less days after it stops raining, that the water becomes clear again. So, there's like a big—when the rivers are discharging very high, it's actually pushing a lot of the water in the bay out, as like a big water mass. So, it's not necessarily sitting there allowing for the bacteria to multiply. They might be multiplying in the water mass, but that water mass is being transported offshore because the river flow is so high that it's pushing all that water in the bay out MR. RICHARDS: And final question, how long will the bacteria live in salt water? MS. ECONOMY: That's a great question. There has been lots of studies that kind of give different answers. One study I found said that the bacteria will only last for two hours. However, other studies have suggested that certain strains can resist heat shock and they can persist in non -reproducing states for long periods of time, over weeks. Page 3 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 MR. RICHARDS: Okay, thank you. I have lots of questions, but I'll yield. CHR. O'HARA: Mr. Kanuha. MR. KANUHA: Thank you, and mahalo for the presentation. I know the studies were based off of the rainfall and the waters. But—and I hope there's some studies about the Kona side because we've been getting a lot of people calling into my office about their kids getting staph at the beaches, and I know a few members from the Environmental Commission have actually come and talked to us about that as well, the increase in the amount of people that have been getting these infections. We don't have the rivers, we don't have the rainfall, it's just something that I really would love to see, and hopefully, we have those stats. I have no idea if anybody has done a lot of these studies on that particular case, because it is a growing concern, whether it's within the sand, it's, I don't know. It's just something that I hope you guys can consider and I would love to see those stats or studies on it. But, really interesting to see and I hope we continue this conversation, not only on this specific topic, not only on the rainfall and the rivers and how it increases the amount of staph inside these areas, but, I had no idea that two out of five of us have it on us all the time. I heard that, or one of things that people told us was when you go to the beach just shower before you go into the water and shower when you come out of the water. And of course, the cuts, try to avoid going into the ocean. I mean we have so many people, especially on the west side, using our beaches that—of course, these things are going to increase. But, really want to get the public educated on what we can do to decrease these infections, if there is that way, that method. But, I don't really have any specific questions; I just want to thank you. Did you want to respond? MS. WIEGNER: No, I just was going to—most of our staph work has been on the Hilo side. MR. KANUHA: Oh, did you want to just introduce yourself again? CHR. O'HARA: I'm sorry, Tracy. I hate to say this, but you have to say your name every time. MS. WIEGNER: Oh, okay. Hi, this is Tracy Wiegner. We had—most of our research to date has focused on the Hilo side because we were interested in the connection with rainfall. We have done some staph measurements in West Hawaii, at Puako, as part of our studies looking at sewage pollution there, and the counts were pretty low compared to what we have seen in Hilo. We haven't Page 4 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 gone to other locations yet. I have heard people are concerned about that. There are some logistical constraints because we have to get samples back within six hours to start processing them. So, it is easier for us to do work in Hilo. We would be interested in pursuing some projects in West Hawaii, but at this time, we haven't established any. MR. KANUHA: If you need contingency funds, I would love to give you some to help out in getting some test samples, increase some test samples on the west side. I'd love to work with you guys in the future. MS. WIEGNER: Sure, we would be interested in helping you. MR. KANUHA: Thank you. CHR. O'HARA: Alright, Ms. Ruggles MS. RUGGLES: Thank you. Thank you for the presentation. I just wanted to ask on the staph presence in beach sands graph, it looks like maybe Honoli`i has the most. MS. ECONOMY: Yes. MS. RUGGLES: The highest concentrations MS. ECONOMY: Yes. MS. RUGGLES: Okay. MS. ECONOMY: So, Honoli`i is actually—it has the highest range, it's not significantly different than Bayfront or Richardson's however. Onekahakaha and Honoli`i were significantly different, and we are looking to investigate that further with Malia throughout this year, looking at maybe if it's the sand type, the composition is different and also, I don't know if she'll be looking at beach goers or any of that. But, definitely looking at the environmental factors to see if we can pull apart that and see what the difference is from MS. RUGGLES: Thanks. And are there any ideas that you guys have thought of as far as how to treat staph, other than using antibiotics? MS. ECONOMY: As far as treating, we are—we're environmental scientist so we're not really looking into how to treat it. Our thought has been to get this foundational research and share it with people so that they can make the decision about what is safe for them. They can be more aware of staph as a pathogen and look out for their wounds. If they see things going on, they should go to the doctor immediately, and just sharing that information and sharing that hygiene is Page 5 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 important, and looking after yourself is important, not going swimming after heavy rains, all these just these golden rules to follow. MS. RUGGLES: Yeah, being raised in Puna and frequently places like the warm ponds as a kid, it became standard practice. We have one little small cut don't go in the water, or if you get a cut when you're in the water, to immediately sterilize it. And I've actually contracted staph once, and I was actually been able to treat it without antibiotics, using this tincture that I had found, and I'll go ahead and share this with you. It was noni root extract, garlic, ginger, cayenne pepper, colloidal silver, lavender and rosemary extracts, and DMSO (Dimethyl sulfoxide), which would make it penetrate into the wound as deep as possible. You have to put that on five times a day constantly, and wash the skin constantly, and shower after the treatment, shower multiple times throughout the day. And that did work, at least for me. MS. ECONOMY: That's great. That's interesting. Thank you. MS. RUGGLES: You're welcome. And it suddenly calls for concern that it's becoming antibiotic resistant. That's really scary. Anyway, thanks for the presentation. MS. ECONOMY: Thank you. CHR. O'HARA: Okay, thank you. Ms. Lee Loy. MS. LEE LOY: Thank you, Chair. Thank you for your presentation. My community has been really struggling with this in Keaukaha and Pana`ewa. Well, Keaukaha especially because we have the outfall pipe and then these are where all of our beach parks in Hilo is located, is in my district. So, we've been tracking this for a while but I want to back up a little bit. You're sampling sites up mauka in the river, at what elevation was that occurring? MS. ECONOMY: It was about 245 meters in elevation. MS. LEE LOY: And did you folks sorry, it's going to be kind of rapid fire. Did you folks take a look at that population as far as residential compared to agricultural within that location site of the sampling site? Like capacity or MS. ECONOMY: So, we didn't look at those things. We just were kind of grabbing the sample to see what the numbers would look like. I know Tracy has done MS. WIEGNER: There is some— MS. LEE LOY: Tracy? Page 6 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 MS. WIEGNER: Hello, this is Tracy Wiegner. Sorry, I'm new to this process. There's population information for the Wailuku watershed basin, not for that particular area. We were up by Pi`ihonua. One of our students, Tyler Gerkin, as part of his senior thesis project, he's looking at different types of soils from different land uses within the watershed, to see how staph concentrations vary. So, he's going to be collecting soils from agricultural areas and he's going to look at different types of urban cover forest. I can't remember all of the different ones, but we looked at the land use map for the watershed. We picked the major categories out, and over the next year, he's going to collect samples from three different sites from each category so that we can make a map and see how it might be distributed within the watershed, as a first cut. Because Louise's project is really the beginning of trying to understand or identify where it's coming from in the watershed. MS. LEE LOY: Yeah, I would love to see that information because the agricultural landscape is very different from our urban setting in our residential cover that people bring soil or soil types in. The other question I had was, was any consideration given to the type of septic or cesspool systems located to that collection site and in the Wailuku area? I just know that some of our communities that were built before septic systems used cesspools. And I'm just wondering if there's a correlation between those high rainfall events that are flushing through our lava systems, or lava tube systems up mauka into the streams. I was wondering if any consideration was given for that. MS. ECONOMY: I'll start trying to answer this. So, we do know that Hilo does have a high concentration of cesspools. It's very hard for us to look at the direct connection between concentrations of staph in the water systems and the cesspools systems, just because we're looking at 24 -hours prior to sampling, and we don't exactly know the lag time from seepage from cesspools into our systems. So, we would have to figure out kind of what that lag time looks like, and that lag time will be different from the home to the water for each separate house. So, it is kind of a complicated question. But, at the beginning of this project, we did recognize that there is a lot of bacteria and pathogens entering into our waters through leakage from cesspools. MS. LEE LOY: A follow-up question. You mentioned, during these big storm events, a lot of the water is being pushed out of the bay. Has any consideration been given to just the typical circulation within the bay? Because you have a site, Bayfront, which is within the break wall, and then you have Richardson's and Honoli`i, which is outside of the break wall. Were there any considerations given to that? Page 7 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 MS. WIEGNER: Well, sorry, this is Tracy Wiegner, again. Louise's study was focused inside the break wall, so, that's where we have most of the information from with regards to water, concentrations, and rainfall. The other study was part of investigating concentrations at the local beaches, so, getting water samples and sand samples. We haven't linked—we're not that far into the project yet to link it back to rainfall. So, that was one part. The other thing I wanted to address, too, is linking concentrations in the stream back to cesspools or septic tanks or whatever kind of system homes have, is quite challenging. So, for example, in Puako, just to kind of get a sense of how fast the sewage travels from a house to the shoreline, we had to do a dye tracer test. We didn't do that as part of the project. We do acknowledge that the sewage from the homes could be a potential source. We haven't measured staph in any of the effluent from the cesspools or septic tanks, only from the sewage treatment plant, as just as a sort of first cut, because sometimes it's very difficult to get into cesspools. A lot of times they are sealed and covered with dirt and people don't want to dig up their yards to give us some samples. So, we acknowledge that we haven't tried to make that link yet. The stuff outside the break wall, we haven't taken into consideration the circulation. It was just a first cut of understanding what the conditions are like at the local beaches where a lot of people recreate. MS. LEE LOY: Thank you. I look forward to more of your studies and actually, inviting you to our communities, especially the Keaukaha community to share this with them. They are very concerned. The out -fall pipe is at Puhi Bay, you know? And I hear this often from my constituents down in Keaukaha that we were taught that when you got sick, you went to the ocean to feel better. It was our respite. So, it's culturally like a big disconnect for them. But yeah, if you guys are willing, I really would like to have you at our meetings in Keaukaha. So, thank you. I yield. CHR. O'HARA: Thank you. I see Mr. Richards has his light on again. MR. RICHARDS: Thank you, Chair. And I apologize, this sounds more like a thesis defense than a delivery, but obviously, we're kind of curious. On the selection of the bacteria, staph, as opposed to anything else, E. coli, whatever, just selected as an indicator species, what percentage of your bacteria in your sample set is staph, as opposed to anything else? Like I said, I could ask lots and lots of questions. MS. ECONOMY: And so MR. RICHARDS: And "I don't know" is a good answer, okay? So, don't feel bad. Page 8 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 MS. ECONOMY: No, no, no. We didn't do a screening for every single bacteria within the water. We got a media that is selective so it only supposed to allow staph to grow, and then we continue to test that. So, I don't know what percentage of the bacteria is staph compared to everything else. We have been testing fecal indicator bacteria along with staph during this research. We've been looking at enterococcus and clostridium perfringens and we do see that the patterns are pretty similar. And yeah, they're pretty similar with staph and the rainfall. MR. RICHARDS: Okay, I'll yield because like I said, I can go on. CHR. O'HARA: Thank you. And I see Ms. Ruggles' light is on. MS. RUGGLES: Thank you. I just have one last question. It's actually something that Ms. Lee Loy brought up. In Puhi Bay, has there been any testing where the—comparing Puhi Bay to the rest of Hilo Bay for concentrations of staph? MS. ECONOMY: So, I have not done any staph testing within Hilo Bay, I mean within Puhi Bay, unfortunately. This project began with only samples within Hilo Bay, and then with the help of interns, we kind of started branching out down to Keaukaha. I think Puhi Bay would be a great site to add, just because the outflow is right there and it's so close to the community that lives down in Keaukaha. So, that is something that I wish we would—yeah, we can add to Mafia's Project as she continues. MS. RUGGLES: Thank you. I think that's important. CHR. O'HARA: Alright, any more questions? Mr. Kanuha. MR. KANUHA: I just wanted to comment on what Ms. Lee Loy said previously about cultural wise, us as Hawaiians, it's absolutely true, we go to the ocean to cleanse ourselves before we do a lot of different things. Spiritually, there's a lot of different cleansing rituals that we do in the ocean and it's absolutely true, you go to the ocean to cleanse. You don't want to go to the ocean and get an infection. It's very anti -cultural to hear these kinds of things when the ocean is supposed to be a cleansing thing. So, I just wanted to harp on that where that's a really important part about this whole thing. So, thank you. CHR. O'HARA: Any other comments from Council Members? Then, I guessI do have a few comments and questions myself. When we were talking about Honoli`i and the high incidents of staph in the beach there, and you said you hadn't actually focused on the ocean users, I'm kind of curious if there is a Page 9 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 relationship there. I mean most of our beach parks are accommodated with—if they have showers at all, they're accommodated with cold water showers. And would that, as a pre -wash, be sufficient enough to wash off skin staph? I'm not sure what the answer to that question is. But, that particular beach is largely frequented by surfers, so, that's a different type of user, in say than some of the other beaches that you were investigating. So, I'd really like to see if there is any kind of relationship there. You mentioned also about comparing to other urban environments, other urban areas in terms of the numbers that we're finding here, and I'm questioning, are those also tropical environments or are they more temper climate environments? Does it matter the PH (potential of hydrogen) of the water, the salinity and the warmth of the water? How do these things all affect? So, can we actually make comparisons to other zones? I'm just throwing out questions, I'm notI have no answers to any of this. But, I really think we need to have some way of looking at the individual residential septic and cesspool systems in terms of the impact of that wastewater, and not just the wastewater facility, which could also be impactful, but we need to look at the broader issue. Very little of Hilo town is actually on the wastewater facility, so, upstream and all those areas are going to be septic and cesspool. So, it would be nice to get more information on that relationship. Any last comments from you? MS. WIEGNER: Hello. This is Tracy Wiegner again. We did also have another senior thesis student, Makayla Jones and part of her project was to—she went down to several beaches. She went down to Honoli`i, Bayfront, Onekahakaha, Richardson's, and most recently—well, most recently we've done Puhi Bay and Reeds Bay, but we haven't analyzed that data yet. She wanted to get a sense of— she wanted to see if water users were at greater risk for infection. So, just interviewing people to get their perception, like have you had a staph infection? Where do you think you got it? How often do you use the water? What types of activities do you do in the water? And she did find that water users tended to report back that they had a higher incidence of infections, whether they got it at that particular location or not. Again, this is their perception. She also did find that males had a higher incidence as well, and so, we are continuing to work up that data. She did present that information down at the Keaukaha Community Association back in April, and we did make a brochure to share with them. We plan to revise that and to share it with Chad Shibuya, who is the Director of Infection Control Nurse at Hilo Medical Center. He often goes down to Honoli`i during the surf events and I think he has a table trying to bring greater awareness of staph infections to the surfers. So, we're hoping to provide him with some new information that he can share as well. Page 10 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 And then based on that meeting we had at the Keaukaha Community Association, they wanted information about Puhi Bay, and they wanted information about Reed's Bay. So, this past September, we went out and started to do surveys there as well. And so, over the next few months, we're going to be analyzing that relative to the other places where we had conducted the work to get a better sense of what people think. We also tried to—we worked with Chad at the hospital, to collect information about people who went into the hospital with staph and MRSA (Methicillin- resistant Staphylococcus aureus) infections, to see if that was related to weather patterns. Like did they—were more people going in when it was hot or cold or raining and what type of water activities did they do? But, the data was a little bit different than we suspected. Most of the people coming into the hospital were, correct me if I'm wrong, Louise, I'm trying to remember, where people who might not have had the best hygiene. Some of them were homeless. So, it was a different population than we were anticipating being able to interview. I think we were targeting more the appropriate community members when we were at the beaches. And so, that's—if we were to go back and tried to get some of that information out, I think it would be going back to beaches and continuing to do surveys. CHR. O'HARA: Alright. Well, thank you very much. Yeah and there's so much more research to do. I'm so glad you're working on this and thank you so much for the presentation, really well-done. You're going to be obtaining your masters, I understand from this? Yes. Very good. Very good thesis and I'm glad you have other students working as well. So, with that, I think we're done with the discussion. So, can I call for a vote on filing this communication? All those in favor say "aye." Vote on Comm. 451: The motion to close file on Comm. 451 was carried by the Filed following voice vote: Ayes: Council Members Chung, David, Eoff, Kanuha, Lee Loy, Poindexter, Richards, Ruggles, and Chair O'Hara – 9. Noes: None. Absent: None. Excused: None. CHR. O'HARA: Thank you very much, ladies, I appreciate it. At this point, let's just take a five-minute break and then we will have our next communication. Thank you very much. Recess. Page 11 EMC -7 Recess: Reconvene: Comm. 452 Motion to Close File: October 3, 2017 At 10:53 a.m., the Chair called for a recess. The meeting reconvened at 10:58 a.m. CHR. O'HARA: I'm going to take us out of recess here, for our Committee on Environmental Management. Our second communication is Communication 452. Clerk, could you please read that into the record? REQUESTS INFORMATION FROM THE PROGRAM MANAGER FOR THE WASTEWATER BRANCH OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH REGARDING THE DEPARTMENT'S MANAGEMENT OF NON - DISINFECTED WASTEWATER AND ITS POSSIBLE DISCHARGE AND DISPOSAL INTO AN ARRAY OF SHALLOW SUMPS, INJECTION WELLS, AND OCEAN OUTFALLS ON HAWAII ISLAND From Council Member Eileen O'Hara, dated September 5, 2017. Mr. Kanuha moved to close file on Comm. 452. Seconded by Ms. Lee Loy. CHR. O'HARA: We have two presenters here from the Department of Health (DOH), if you would just you? Okay. If you would like to come forward, Sina, and when you speak, just introduce yourself one time. I'd also like to ask Mr. Kucharski, if he could come forward because we may have questions for him, relative to the questions that will be posed here. With that, I would turn it over to the presenters, and just state your name. (Note: At this time, Program Manager of the Wastewater Branch of the Department of Health Sina Pruder and Department of Environmental Management Director Bill Kucharski came forward to address the members of the Committee.) MS. PRUDER: My name is Sina Pruder, I'm the Program Manager for the Wastewater Branch and I'm actually—my office is on Oahu, in Honolulu. CHR. O'HARA: Thank you for being here today. There were some questions posed in this request, and perhaps you can just iterate those questions and give some response, if you would. MS. PRUDER: Okay. So, I know the first question had to do with the Hilo Wastewater Treatment Plant outfall. So actually, I'm not that falls under our Clean Water Branch. They're the ones that issue MPDS (Multipurpose Decontamination System) permits for discharge to outfalls. So, based on my understanding on the information that they provided to me, they said that the effluent from the Hilo Wastewater Treatment Plant is actually chlorinated prior to getting discharged from the outfall. And I know in the information that was Page 12 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 provided to me, it said that the effluent wasn't being disinfected. They also said that they also are monitoring for, I believe it was enterococci and clostridium perfringens. So, they do the bacterial monitoring of that effluent. CHR. O'HARA: Okay, why don't you just go ahead and go through the questions and then we'll open it up to Q&A (Questions and Answers). MS. PRUDER: Okay, and then I guess another concern that you guys had was Honokohau Harbor. So, that's actually not considered recreational waters under the Clean Water Branch where they're actually monitoring. But DOBAR (Division of Boating and Ocean and Recreation), that's the Department of—is that Harbors? They were issued a letter by the Department of Health, like two or three years ago, because they are so close to the harbor. They don't actually have cesspools. They have these kinds of antiquated wastewater systems. I think the concern is that they have injection wells that are located right next to the water. But, the problem with DOBAR is that they do want to connect, eventually, to the Kealakehe Wastewater Treatment Plant. But, it's my understanding that the infrastructure has to still be constructed by the County for DOBAR to connect. So, that's the status of that Honokohau Harbor. I guess in regard to the cesspools in general, this past legislation—and it wasn't really DOH, it was actually the Legislature that passed a new law that will require the upgrades of all cesspools by 2050. But then, they were exempt cesspools, and that exemption actually came into place because when we were trying to—what is that? When we were trying to require cesspool upgrades from point of sale, there were these concerns from the public that said, "Well, I can't upgrade my cesspool if there's no access to the property." So, there was an exemption list that was actually created at that time. When this bill went in for last legislation session, the legislators brought that up, "Well, you probably should have an exemption for cesspools where it's probably impossible to put in a replacement system." Because there are areas, too, where people have blue rock, and if you have blue rock, unless you have dynamite, you can't really put in a wastewater system. But so again, it wasn't DOH that—we supported that HB 1244. So, you know, that's actually just a step ahead. I mean, its 2050, for the mandate of all cesspools to be upgraded. But, we're kind of hoping that date will be lowered. And one of the conditions of that bill was for the Department of Health to identify and to prioritize because as you guys know, there's like about 88,000 cesspools statewide, and out of that 88,000, there's like 50,000 here on this island. And it wasn't until last year in March of 2016, where we actually finally were able to ban the construction of new cesspools. But now, okay, now we banned the construction of new cesspools where do we go? What do we do next? And the Page 13 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 next step is to try to phaseout cesspools that are considered—and for us, it's like you've got to prioritize, because you can't go and try to upgrade all 88,000. You've got to figure out which ones are—or what is that? And for us, when we started prioritizing, where are the ones that are impacting the drinking water? Where are the ones that are impacting our recreational waters? So, right now, we're trying to work because we have to provide a prioritization, you know, a report to the Legislature in November to prioritize all of these areas. And right now, as the last presenters were stating, you know, for us, it's like I may say it's like a no-brainer. If your cesspool is located next to the ocean, it's draining, you know? I mean, it's become—it's a threat, okay? But, for me to say that, I actually need data. I need data to show that there is this connection between their wastewater system and to the ocean because if we don't prove that, we can actually have a class-action suit against the state saying, "Well, how do you know it's my cesspool contaminating the streams?" So, what happen is that we actually created a cesspool work group between us and the EPA (Environmental Protection Agency), to come up with this strategy to try to prioritize cesspools. Because two years ago, I think, well three years ago in 2014, there were high enterococci readings at Kahalu`u, if you guys are familiar with that. And over there, there's like 800 cesspools, okay? So, they said the smoking gun was cesspools. But, you know, we're probably 99 percent sure that it's probably cesspools that are causing the contamination to the stream. But, we had to get UH and USGS (United States Geological Survey) to actually do a study to show that the stream is getting polluted by cesspools. Because once we can get the data because you have to validate the data, you have to do QHQC (Quality Assurance/Quality Control), right? Because once you can get that, then we can go back and look at, "Okay, now what do we do?" I mean what do we do with this situation, right? I mean, it's like you can't just turn away. You know that the water is being polluted. Now, what do we do next? In that area, the City and County of Honolulu, they actually have a line that they could easily extend up, which they were supposed to do 20 years ago. But, they don't think it's their problem, right? We've gone to them numerous times because the best solution there was to sewer that area because you have an available line. But, there's this struggle between us and the city is saying that they have other priorities to worry about other than our consent order. So, it's not a priority to them, but for us, are we going to require the upgrades of all of these cesspools? I mean so, this is something that once we get the data, it's QHQC, and then we'll have to figure out what we're going to do about this. But see, this is actually, just like I said, this is—what we're trying to do is build the framework. We're trying to build the framework so whatever we do here because it's about finding solutions, right? Because, we get that, but then it's like Page 14 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 well, we can't just force them to upgrade knowing that five years down the road, they're going to have to connect to the sewer, right? Another part about this, too, is development. If you allow more development in an area where you know that on-site systems are polluting your streams, why are you allowing that? Because any kind of on-site systems, even if they're treated wastewater, you'll still have to inject it into the ground, right? And where does it go? And if you're uphill, it's going to go down stream, right? Not all the areas that we've identified were where sewer or County sewer would be the solution because there are areas where a County System is not even near the area, right? Like say, Pua ko and Kapoho, right? You know, what do you do? So, for us on—for the Wastewater Branch, what we've been requiring is that we've been enforcing our Chapter 11-62 rules, so if a homeowner comes in with a new system or they want to upgrade their existing house and we find that their cesspool is in groundwater, we actually require them to upgrade the system so that—well, first of all before they can upgrade, they have to come in with a variance. They have to come in with a variance and then one of the variance when we issue variances, we tell them that they have to come up—they have to install a better treatment system, which provides a 50 percent nitrogen reduction. We also require them to put in UV (Ultraviolet), disinfection. So, like on our side, what we're trying to do is, as cesspools are being required to, through either building permit modification or through a new building permit for a new system, we are requiring a higher level of treatment for these systems. I mean that's all we can do on our side but then there'scesspools are a statewide problem. It's not just a problem here, it's a problem on Kauai, Maui, and Oahu. CHR. O'HARA: Thank you for that. And that answers the basic questions. I'm going to, at this point, open it up for questions. I see Ms. Poindexter has her light on. MS. POINDEXTER: Question. Thank you for your presentation. You just said something about untreated wastewater injected into the ground and especially if it's going downhill, it's not good. Correct? If it's untreated. MS. PRUDER: Well, that's cesspools though, right? MS. POINDEXTER: Yes. MS. PRUDER: A lot of them are untreated. Cesspools are basically holes in the ground and like here on this island, it's not so good, because most of it is like fractured rock. Whereas the other islands you know, you actually have at least soil that provides some kind of filtration. But here, you have lava rocks and you also have those lava tubes, right? Page 15 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 MS. POINDEXTER: Right. So, thank you for that statement. Because I would like to see—I know we're talking about a lot of residential stuff, but along my coastline, we have a lot of Ag and a lot of it is zoned Ag with people's homes or whatever on it and large industrial farms. You know, we have the dairy for example. I would love to see—when you say you have the group of people getting together about cesspools, when you have two open—to me they're open cesspools of more than 300 million gallons open there too. One unlined, one possibly lined, and one possibly cracked also. I hope you guys take that kind of stuff into consideration because those are on high elevation slopes and the community's right there and the stream—and we know for a fact that those have been going into the streams. Now, you said about testing, like out in maybe Keaukaha area or whatever and all the waters there, you said collecting data is important. But, the history of Department of Health for many, many years now, is that you're not staffed to be able to collect data and so, the streams throughout our island, you're not getting the data you need because the Department of Health cannot get to it. So, there were 2014 reports of really bad, outrageous, high levels of bacteria, but the Department of Health couldn't do anything because they didn't have the staff So, we say we're collecting data but how are we going to nowI mean you say you need to collect the data in order to make a difference. How do you do it when you don't have the staff, and where do we go from here? Do we lobby the Legislature to say, "Hey, come on man, you got to beef up the Department of Health and their Clean Water Branch because our island is suffering here?" We have, what, one person on this island? MS. PRUDER: Yeah. I mean actually, that was one of the things I was going to bring up here, I hate to say it, while like on my side, you know for the Wastewater Branch, I only have two engineers, okay? One on the Hilo side and one on the Kona side. But, they're actually, they have an oversight of maybe 30,000 on site systems between the two. Because you have 50,000 plus cesspools, but then there's also septic tanks, you know, they also have to probably respond to Ag complaints. But two people to manage all of that is kind of asking for too much. MS. POINDEXTER: Right, and that's wastewater. Now, when you talk about clean water— MS. PRUDER: That's wastewater. And then clean water, it's just one, right? So, you just have one person actually taking samples for the entire island, and also, responding to all clean water—what is that branch? Any kind of discharges to state waters. So, everyone kind of MS. POINDEXTER: And even when we get the complaints in saying there's discharge in—they are not able to test it. They're not able to come out and test. mean they've literally said, "Sorry, we cannot come out and test." So, where do Page 16 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 we get the money as citizens to go do that? You have releases into Hilo Bay, I mean I can imagine Keaukaha and I'm out in `O`okala, I mean nobody is swimming off the cliffs or anything, but still. But, the answer is when people call, "Oh, sorry, we don't have anyone able to do that." So, I want to know how we can help. Do we need to start putting resolutions through to help or start talking with our State legislators or how do we help the Department of Health do their job to protect the citizens of our island? MS. PRUDER: I think that would be helpful. I don't think we'd probably put any kind of budget, I mean—well, it's a supplemental budget year. So, we usually typically don't request for positions, but, what I'll probably do when I get back to Oahu is actually talk to the other program manager and just put in the budget request. I mean it's not just over here, it's like for the other islands. MS. POINDEXTER: Right. MS. PRUDER: For both branches actually, because if you don't have the resources it's really difficult. MS. POINDEXTER: And I just want to say thank you, because I've had emails with your name on it and never got to meet you. But thank you for all the work that you do to try to balance it, even if we don't have the staffing on this island, and the proper response that we need from the Department of Health. But, at least you're aware of it and you've been working on it on Oahu, but we just need to know where do we go? Because we could keep talking but if there is no money and no funding and no bodies at the Department of Health, we're just spinning our wheels and our people are just getting sick. I mean we have people, one young boy surfing at Honoli`i got medivacked to Maui to be treated, this was mid-September because of infection in the bay at Honoli`i. So, a lot of things are happening, but I think we can be—we can try to prevent stuff by early testing, monitoring, and all of that. And like again, though, as I said, there's no—Department of Health doesn't have the staffing to be able to help us that way. MS. PRUDER: Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's just the Department of Health. I mean the struggles for us is that what we're seeing is like Oahu, a majority of the population is actually sewered by the City and County Honolulu. So, when you go to a centralized system, it goes to an outfall and usually where people aren't swimming. But, there are areas on Oahu, and I it's like I pretty much know like all of the areas where there's a lot of cesspools, right? And do I want to go in the water? Probably not, only because I know how it flows, right? Page 17 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 But, the thing is the state and the counties, you know, they need to put—and I mean everyone talks about rail. But actually, we really need to put in our infrastructure, even if you don't have—on Oahu, it's like if you don't have the density to justify putting in a line, right? But, you know what? Yeah, you're right, if we actually had more clean water staff actually testing a lot of the streams statewide, you would probably see a lot of levels where you'd be kind of alarmed, right? Because especially where the density—if you're just looking at the map, a lot of them are probably on cesspools. MS. POINDEXTER: Yeah. MS. PRUDER: Right? MS. POINDEXTER: Well, thank you for that, because it's important. And thank you, Eileen, for bringing this—Council Member Eileen O'Hara, for bringing this forward because, you know, maybe this kind of stuff should have been a special session and the two percent TAT (Transient Accommodation Tax) should have gone to help our island with those kinds of things. So, thank you. I'll yield at this time. CHR. O'HARA: Thank you, Ms. Poindexter. Does anybody else—Mr. Kanuha. MR. KANUHA: Thank you. Thank you, Sina, for those comments. This is something that we've been dealing with for years now. You know, my entire district probably is on—is full of cesspools. All the subdivisions are very close to the ocean, as we all know. It's leaching out there and like you said, we can -99 percent sure that, that is where it's going, but unless we have the data to back that up, and the—then we can't really make a sound decision on how we move forward. But, I mean, I understand the requirements of mandating the end of cesspools in 2050. It's just that we need to deal with the funding mechanisms of how to do that. I mean we have a few subdivisions that we're trying to deal with currently in my district of turning putting it on the sewer system. This has been years in the making. It's just, how do we work with—the County works with the state or the fells, or anybody of getting the funding to transition over. I know it's very difficult to do. I mean, if we're mandated to do this, how do we work with everybody to get that funding to actually do it? MS. PRUDER: So, like where do you—where are your districts? MR. KANUHA: Sorry, my district is in Kona. So, Old Airport to Keauhou. Page 18 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 MS. PRUDER: Okay. But, that one there, actually trying to extend the Kealakehe Treatment Plant, right? You guys are trying to extend the Kealakehe Treatment Plant to service more of the areas. MR. KUCHARSKI: Bill Kucharski, Director of DEM (Department of Environmental Management). Yes, when we're doing the RI System, we are pushing the line north to the Costco road. And that is where the harbor will connect into and we've had discussions with DLNR (Department of Land and Natural Resources), about getting the funding that they need to connect up to the system, and getting their pump system into there so that we can be treating that water. We are trying—we do have issues of what do we do when we're south of Queen Kalama and we're past the planning district for Kealakehe and what do we do with movement north? We're really in transition and I think there are basic philosophical decisions that need to be made in planning and within wastewater as to how we develop. Do we cause the developer to sewer, or does the county sewer and development will follow the infrastructure? These are really basic questions in which in each whichever one you choose, there are going to be winners and losers. And I prefer to have win and win rather than win and lose. And so, dealing with that is very difficult. I will say that with the state, we had put in—one of the questions you had been asking a number of times is, are we looking at grants? And we have just been notified on the 604, a big grant opportunity dealing with cesspools and alternative technologies that could be used to replace the cesspools, plus planning on which—where we're going to go first and move forward. And we have notified that we're going to proceed with getting grant money to work on those programs. So, the state is working with us and DOH to help us proceed forward on that. But yes, we are trying to expand, and how, when, and where we do, we can do it all, just need nine zeros and I'm happy. MR. KANUHA: Yes, same here. And Sina, I know you were saying—you're talking earlier in about a month, you're going to present the prioritizations of these cesspools to the Legislature. Do you have any idea of what those priorities are going to be yet or are you guys still working on those? MS. PRUDER: We're still actually finalizing the list. But, there are a few areas on this island that's probably going to be identified. I think we have a concern in the Kea`au area because of the drinking water concerns. I think we're finding preliminary, I guess, testing was done where I think—see, what's happening is, I think cesspools are located, I'm not sure what subdivision it is, but cesspools are located one street above where people are putting in their private drinking wells. And because the private drinking wells are being constructed shallow, there might be an effluence of the cesspools located upstream that is actually entering the Page 19 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 drinking water wells below. And that's a concern. Yeah, that's a concern for us. And that's going to probably be an area that's identified. I think in our report, too, we are going to probably identify Kapoho, Puako, and then I believe, too, like in your district, north Kona area by the airport, because I think there's elevatedI was told there's elevated nitrogen in the water, probably possibly being influenced by cesspools on-site systems. MR. KANUHA: Okay. MS. PRUDER: The report though, I think it'sI think it might be done in December. I mean it has to be done before we provide it to the Legislature. What I'll do is I'll provide Eileen with a copy, so that you guys all have a copy of that report. MR. KANUHA: Thank you. I'll yield at this time. CHR. O'HARA: Thank you. Yeah, Kucharski could probably benefit from that. Ms. Ruggles, you had your light on? MS. RUGGLES: Yes, thank you. Thank you for the good information. I have a lot of questions. First, you mentioned that the effluent from the wastewater treatment plant is chlorinated before it goes into the outfall. Has it ever been tested if chlorine is present in the discharge into the ocean? MS. PRUDER: I'm not sure, I would have to check with the Clean Water Branch. I think there has to be a chlorine residual prior to discharge, so, I believe it is, but I can go and verify with them. MS. RUGGLES: And how far out is the outfall? MS. PRUDER: I'm not sure, you would know. MR. KUCHARSKI: Bill Kucharski. The outfall for Hilo is approximately a mile. It's about, I think, between three quarters and seven eighths of a mile out from shore. MS. RUGGLES: Three quarters and seven eighths. Okay. Is Puhi Bay considered recreational? MS. PRUDER: I'm not—do they swim in there? They do? I would have to go back and check because usually, recreational waters, they do require beach sampling. MS. RUGGLES: And from what I'm hearing, as far as how you want to Page 20 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 prioritize the upgrades, is you're referring to this QHQC data, can you explain what that is? MS. PRUDER: So, what happens is that once you collect your data, you have to do quality assurance, quality control, quality assurance of the data. So, once we collect it, you know, before we can do anything with the data, it has to be properly QHQC'd before we take the next action. MS. RUGGLES: Okay. And in order to get that data, you need to get it to the Department of Health? MS. PRUDER: So, in order to get that data—and then like how what is that? The fact that with the Department of Health, we don't have the staff to do it. So, like in the Kahalu`u situation, grants have been given to UH and to USGS to study that area. So, if anything, that's probably what's going to be done is that when areas are prioritized, if we can find money elsewhere, it would probably be contracted so that they could study that area so that we can collect the data. Because we need—because when I was going out to do the rules amendment, which involved cesspools, the ban of new cesspools, we actually usedI used a study that was done in 2008 and 2014. But, the criticism that I got during the meetings and the public hearings is that it was just theoretical. We need data. We need that data that actually shows my cesspool is contaminating the near -shore waters, right? For the Department of Health, it's like our job to actually get the word out to the people that even if you know, it's not really for us to prove that your cesspool contaminates, it's basically if your cesspool is in groundwater, where is it going to go? But, if we can educate them, because before the rules came out, a lot of people thought their cesspool is out of sight, out of mind. They don't know where it goes and they don't want to know where it goes, right? But, as you give them education, we're kind of hoping that while, you know, if you're swimming in waters and you know that there's cesspools around, maybe you should care and try to support our initiatives to try to upgrade cesspools, right? So, it's justso like for us, too, it was us trying to educate the legislators. So, like when some of them—when they realized that cesspools were an issue, some of them were actually let's supporting the initiatives. We're not even initiating a lot. We're probably just giving ideas, but they're taking it and they're pushing it on their side, you know? And I think funding—so funding's an issue, but like last legislative session, they were the ones that tried to establish a grant program. But, there's going to have to be more money available to address this statewide issue. Page 21 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 MS. RUGGLES: So, sort of a follow up on how we are going to get private residents to upgrade to septic. In your initial presentation, you mentioned that there's two requirements to upgrade, which is they need a variance, and I didn't quite catch something that caused the 50 percent reduction in nitrogen. What was that? MS. PRUDER: So, that's actually the treatment system. It's called aerobic treatment unit. So, what is that? Legislation was just passed this year, it was HB 605. It was introduced by Representative Lowen. So, if you're going to discharge your wastewater to groundwater, meaning that a lot of the shoreline homes—because it's really the groundwater that is really high. So, I mean, they're going to have to discharge it to the groundwater. So, the bill said that in these areas, instead of areas—the Department of Health has the authority to require all of these homes to put in a treatment system that actually addresses nutrient reduction. So, nitrogen, it's a better quality of treatment unit. So, we've been actually requiring that because anyone that comes in with a new system, a new proposed system, or if there's a building modification, you know, a building permit, we will look at the cesspool and we will say, "Oh okay, that cesspool is in groundwater." Before we sign off on your building permit, we're going to require you to upgrade our cesspool to put in this more advanced system with UV disinfection. So, on our side, we're trying to do what we can do. What we might do in the future is to try and introduce amendments to do the point of sale, too, which we got a lot of pushback from the realtors about requiring us—homes with cesspools to upgrade at point of sale. Yeah, we did that in 2014, got a lot of push -back where the rules were taken off the table. And then when Ige came in, we had to revise the rules, took out the point of sale, and then focused on banning new cesspools. So, you know, it's about taking steps, right? You know, you try to push everything at once but if that doesn't work, you just have to take it slowly, right? Is that Rhode Island? Rhode Island actually is similar to us, but what they did was in 2007, they put, it was called the Rhode Island cesspool ban, and what they did was they mandated all cesspools within 200 feet from the shoreline to upgrade within seven years. So, they gave—it's a mandate, so, all cesspools within 200 feet of a shoreline had to. It was mandated for them to upgrade. What they did, too, was they also tried to push legislation to do the point of sale. So, if your cesspool was going to—if you're going sell a house and you had a cesspool, you had to upgrade within 365 days. The first time they put it through, they got push- back. They pushed it again and in the second year, they actually got it passed. So, I think that's something that we're probably going to have to do on our side, maybe Page 22 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 after election year. So, that's probably something that we'll probably look at. So, we're trying to be—we're trying to, you know like for us, we're trying to find ways to see what we can do to actually replace cesspools, existing cesspools when we can. MS. RUGGLES: Thanks. And so, on that topic of getting people to replace their cesspools and the funding, what sort of process are you looking at on getting people to actually replace it? Are there any ideas on incentives or MS. PRUDER: Well, there is an act, I think it was Act 120 that was passed last year. But then it was revised this year by HB 1244, and what it does is it provides an income tax credit for cesspools that are considered eligible. So, last year, it was within 200 feet from a stream, from a water body, within a source water protection area, so that's like a drinking water area and a perennial stream. HB 1244 actually amended that criteria to expand the use, I mean expand the use of that income tax credit. So, what it did was it expanded it to 500 feet from a shoreline, perennial stream, wetland, but then it also has this condition where the Department of Health, and again, this comes down to the priority, the areas that we end up prioritizing. So, it—the bill also gives the Department of Health the authority to actually identify sensitive areas that would also apply to the tax credit. So, I believe that when we identify the 12 areas, those areas would also be qualified to apply for that income tax credit. What we're going to try to do, too, is I don't know if it's going to be this year or next year, we're going to try to see if we can get that grants program put into the Legislature so that the state can put in money. We actually have a state revolving loan fund, you know, the Clean Water State Revolving Loan Fund that we actually use it to provide the county low-interest loans. But, what we'll probably do is if we can establish some kind of grant program, we may be able to put some money into that program to fund upgrades. Because we found that it didn't make sense for us to do—the state is not structured to be a bank for private owners. I mean it's very inefficient, you know, our financial system. So, the best way for us to—if we were to do anything, would to establish a grant program, just giving the money out to the community, but not getting it back. But just making sure that the money was spent for the upgrade and not for something else. MS. RUGGLES: Okay, so this grant program that they're looking at would provide monies to the individual private landowners to upgrade? MS. PRUDER: That would be the plan. Page 23 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 MS. RUGGLES: Okay, awesome. And my last question, you mentioned that the Wastewater Treatment Branch has two engineers, and they're supposed to manage 50,000 cesspools here? MS. PRUDER: Well, 50,000 cesspools, they also respond to Ag complaints now, with runoff So, what they basically do every day is that because there's, like again, there's not this county doesn't have that, you know. like that—Hilo doesn't really service that many areas like Kealakehe, so majorityI mean if you ask me majority of the homeowners here are actually serviced by cesspools, well cesspool and then some are—some have septic tank systems but, when building permits come in, our staff has to review the building permits to ensure that they have a properly designed septic tank system. But first of all, they have to review the septic tank plans and they have to review the building permits. They have to respond to whatever complaints they get regarding wastewater. You can just imagine how busy they are. They also have to respond to land use comments, and so, they're basically busy from the time they get in to when they go home. Yeah, I mean, too, that's not really realistic to manage and have an oversight of like 60,000 systems. MS. RUGGLES: Thank you. And what is the role of the clean water, that one person that we have here at the county? MS. PRUDER: So, he's actually under the monitoring branch for the Clean Water. So, the Clean Water Branch actually, they have to do work plans from the Federal Government because he's probably getting funded by the federal grant. So, they have conditions in the grant like beach monitoring that he has to do to satisfy that work plan. But then, because it's him, he's also required to respond to complaints when they come in. You know, any kind of discharges, but again, only one person. I'm not sure I don't think he can—yeah, he cannot. MS. RUGGLES: That is all my questions and in summary, I think that it's important that we test the outfalls for what they're putting into the ocean as far as their effectiveness, if there's chlorine present, or if there is any other sort of wastewater matter in there that's active and present. I'm surprised that we haven't done the tests yet, just to see if we're effective in what we're trying to do, which is keep our water clean and treat our wastewater. I think it's also concerning that where our outfall is now, that it is in a recreational area. It's a bit disturbing to me. We have a lot of work to do on upgrading these cesspools. So, please keep us posted on how we might be able to help with this even with community outreach to our residents and letting them know about programs that are available because we all represent communities near shorelines and we do need to prioritize those upgrades. Thank you. CHR. O'HARA: Thank you, Ms. Ruggles. Ms. Eoff Page 24 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 MS. EOFF: Thank you. She's right. I mean we've got to prioritize this. It's just negligent. It's negligent that we are willing to spend so much money on rail when our infrastructure is falling apart, actually. I mean health and safety is what we're supposed to be protecting and public recreation and the ocean and drinking water. I mean it's not any more basic than that. I know you guys are really doing all you can but I'm glad to hear there's grant money available. I've talked to Mr. Kucharski many times about the Kealakehe Wastewater Treatment Plant that's in my district, and any amount of money we have to spend there, even though it's a lot, we have to do that. And we have to begin to look at different conservation methods, too, so that we're not sending so much water into the ocean. So, I mean there's a lot of stuff here to discuss, but I'm glad we're having the discussion, although, revealing all the information is also disturbing. So, I really don't know except for that I would say we need to support any kinds of funds we can bring in to get a jump on our infrastructure before it all falls apart. I mean, we have leaks, we haveI know everybody can't afford to change from cesspools and so, I think dealing with the amount of water that we're forcing down the cesspools might be something also to look at. So, I'm thinking about I'm not sure if this is a state jurisdiction or county but if we can separate gray water from wastewater, then we won't be sending as much water through lava tubes as we are at this point. So, I'm thinking about how we can increase incentives for or allow it to where we can separate gray water. And at least maybe reuse that in our yards before we—because I see the increase now, I'm wondering whether it has just come to this point in time for the west side of the island—while I live above the airport and since I've lived there since 1980, it's become completely developed. And we didn't have to put in a septic tank, we put in a cesspool and so I'm sure most of those homes are cesspools. I don't know how long it has taken for that amount of water to reach the ocean in the concentrations that it may have now because of the increased density. In what you said before, you know, what do we look at first? The development or the sewering, or whose responsibility is it? But, I don't think we've gotten serious enough about this situation, but it looks like it's in our face now that we need to not ignore the readings and the—all the things we've learned about today, which has kind of been a topic lately. I mean I attended an Environmental Management Commission meeting the other day and learned the difference between disinfected and treated water. So, I made a comment there that I think we need to approve any amount of funding that we can, even to do temporary fixes in the interim before we get to the complete retrofit of the Kealakehe Wastewater Treatment Plant, especially. Sorry, but it's justI think I took this on when I first got elected as my most important issue. Because the Kealakehe Wastewater Treatment Plant is in my district, that before we really do anything else or spend money on other fancy Page 25 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 projects and things like that, we really do need to focus on getting a handle on our wastewater issues. Thank you. MR. KUCHARSKI: Bill Kucharski. One issue that we do need some help from DOH is being able—if we do come up and say require separation of gray water from black water, that is an issue that we need permission from DOH to handle on and would like to be able to get that support. MS. PRUDER: Actually, the gray water reuse is actually part of the Uniform Plumbing Code. Because actually, we changed our Chapter 1162 to say that gray water reuse should beactually, it's the State Plumbing Code. So, if anything, it's up to the counties, various counties to adopt the gray water. If they do, then gray water will be allowed. For the County of Kauai, they actually told the state, "Oh we'll regulate gray water reuse," and I'm like, "Okay." That's good, you know, if you're willing to take that on, you guys can respond to complaints. But, that county actually said, the County Building Department said, "We'll regulate gray water reuse." And yeah, what you're saying is right. If you can separate gray water—but a lot of people get confused what gray water is. Because kitchen wastewater is not gray water but everything else is, like laundry, your showers, which actually, when you look at the percentage of gray water from black water, kitchen water and your toilet water, toilet is probably like a 75 or maybe 80, so 80 percent is gray water, 20 percent is your black water. If you can use the 80 percent to irrigate your lawn, you know, yeah, only 20 percent would be going down your cesspools. But, you still have that high organic loading and you still have that problem with the pathogens. Even if you do put that 20 percent down, now you just have a more concentratedso, I don't know if it really solves the problem. It just reduces the wastewater volume, right? So, there still has to be something done with the black water. CHR. O'HARA: Okay, Ms. Eoff, are you complete? Okay. Ms. David. MS. DAVID: Thank you, Chair. Thank you very much for your presentation. I agree, listening to my fellow Council Members on the urgency of what needs to be done here. I just have a question, because you speak of personnel, inadequate personnel on this island especially. What would be your guess to be full-fledged operational? How much personnel would you need in order to adequately address the issues that this island faces? I know you have one person in Kona, one person in Hilo, and everybody knows that's unrealistic for any department to have just one person, given the size of this County. So, I'm just curious what would it take, personnel wise, staff wise, for the department on this island to be comfortable in addressing the things that we speak of, the inadequacies? I mean, I'm not going hold you to it, I'm just curious how many people would it take in your department? Just a rough wild guess. I'm just curious. Page 26 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 MS. PRUDER: Well actually, I would like the staffing with the inadequacies, that would be more the operations, I mean, that's the inadequacy of MS. DAVID: Right. MS. PRUDER: What we have is the operations. But, that's actually separate from the other part, where you have to try to find solutions and you have to spend the money. I think that would probably be more on the Clean Water Branch maybe, hiring staff to take the samples. Because that's where the lack, just lack of that, of the sampling of the streams, getting the data that's needed, you know? I would probably need that first before we can take on and figure out what we would do with my other staff to figure out what the solutions are. But, what I'm finding is that I think the biggest problem is, where is the money going to come from to help with these upgrades, right? MS. DAVID: I know, and that is what we're talking about, right? We don't have any funding. I mean the possibility of funding to address our issues. And it seems to me that we're at a standstill because one is totally dependent on the other. And I was just wondering how—what would your thoughts be on what areas to address first as far as staffing? And you're telling me that the water quality MS. PRUDER: Water quality, one, and I would probably need one more engineer on at least, I would—because I'm not about trying to grow it too big. I would say I would probably need on my side, another engineer on both sides. So, I would ask for two more engineers plus a clerical staff, just to support them. But, my thing is that I want to look at the big picture, right? Yeah, the staffing is a problem, but when it comes down to it, as everyone says, where are you going to find the money, you know, to help with the upgrades? It's going to have to be the state and the counties putting in some kind of tax system. One time we did try it, I think in 2013, tried to put in a bill to tax cesspool owners for a fee. Because they're not it's something similar to a sewer fee, because people on sewer they have to pay a sewer fee. If you have a cesspool, you don't have to pay anything, right? So, if there was some kind of fee posed to these homeowners, that fee could actually be used put into a pot to help with the upgrades. If you're trying to be creative, I mean it's not like you want to pose this tax but they're not paying anything for discharging their sewage down the hole. MS. DAVID: How did that work? I mean how did that turn out? MS. PRUDER: We came close. The bill went all the way to Ways and Means (WAM) and then I guess some of the other counties' lawmakers realized because we were trying to push this with runoff, you know trying to permit runoff, non -point source runoff for ag lands and everything, but at the end, when Page 27 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 it went to WAM, Ways and Means, it got killed and it was tabled because they didn't want to tax their constituents with that. But, you're going to have to get the source somewhere. I guess a lot of people are saying that they don't have the money, but we're not asking for a whole lot, but you still need to get money from somewhere. MS. DAVID: I appreciate that, and I understand. I'm just trying to see how bad our situation is, which is pretty bad and move forward in trying to come up with working together and finding a solution. So, thank you for your presentation and the information you've given. Mr. Kucharski. MR. KUCHARSKI: Bill Kucharski. Just to put it into perspective, I have used these numbers before. Generally, if you're going to install a septic system, it will run approximately $10,000. If we have 50,000 cesspools at $10,000, that's $500 million. I don't think there's enough grant money in the state unless we're building something to transport people—from the state or from the counties. MS. DAVID: Awesome. Thank you, Director. I yield. On that note, I yield. Mahalo. CHR. O'HARA: Thank you, Ms. David. Mr. Richards. MR. RICHARDS: Thank you, Chair. And Director, that was a perfect segway into a comment I was going to make for Councilwoman Eof£ The willingness to spend the funds on a rail system from the counties, I would argue the willingness of wanting to spend that fund, but I think the point is well -taken. It's being able to afford what we're talking about and I don't think anybody is going to argue that this is a direction that we need to go. The question is how are we going to go there? And in listening to your presentation, I do fully appreciate that. I won't say we're in a grave situation, but we're in a tough situation and once again, we have a very large island, relatively low population base and so, how do we afford the upgrades that we really need to do to go forward? I am very mindful of the concerns about taxing for something that—because you have a cesspool, now we're going to tax you. I don't think that's a fair way to go, but I think we have to be creative going forward on coming up with solutions, and nothing is going to happen quickly. I think identifying the areas that are probably the most impactful, Puako is a big concern, but how do we address that? And believe me, I have listened to many constituents about, on both sides of the argument and I get it. I understand. But still, we have to be able to afford it and we have to be mindful of the people that can't afford it. So again, I appreciate the information, which spawns more conversation up here on the Council. Thank you. Page 28 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 CHR. O'HARA: Thank you, Mr. Richards. Ms. Lee Loy. MS. LEE LOY: Thank you, Chair. Thank you for your folks' stamina. I mean this definitely is a topic that we truly have to prioritize. I'm recalling something that Mayor Kim shared at a Keaukaha meeting, which is, what is the sense of having parks or clean or open space if we're polluting? And we really need to begin to prioritize this because what's the sense in having a beautiful island if we're going to pollute it? Just a couple of comments. One, with the clean water revolving fund, I know there is specific language on how that fund can be accessed and maybe if there's a way of legislatively expanding the definition of the use so that we could tap into it for more resources. I know I shared this with Mr. Kucharski when he first came on -board is leveraging capacity. Although we are counties, we are just one state, and there might be other opportunities to get more funding to address our wastewater systems if we start leveraging capacity across the entire state and tapping into other funds outside of the state revolving fund. These are just thoughts I'm throwing out because clearly, we're going to have to look at solutions and what this policy-making body can do to help leverage more resources so we can have the people to do the heavy lifting and doing the work. Those are just all my comments. The rest of my colleagues really did cover every question that I had. But, I do want to say a really big mahalo to Ms. O'Hara, who did this and presented it in a context where it all made sense. You know, we had a presentation about water and water quality and then the issues that are impacting that. So, thank you very much for keeping it all in context for us, this was ono conversation. Thank you. CHR. O'HARA: Alright, thank you. Ms. Ruggles, did you have another question? MS. RUGGLES: Yes, I did. First, I wanted to follow up on something Mr. Richards said, is that to me, it also doesn't make sense to tax people with cesspools more, especially if they're not upgrading to septic because they can't afford it. It would only make sense if those tax monies were going directly to an account meant to upgrade their specific cesspool, eventually. And I wanted to follow up, I have a question on the point of sale idea that was written within the Department of Health rules at first. Did Governor Ige request that you take it out? MS. PRUDER: No, the Governor didn't request for us to take it out. It was actually the department's decision to take out that language. Yeah, it wasn't the Governor's Office. Because what we wanted to do isbecause when we looked at it, I was hoping that at least Abercrombie was going to sign. I think we pulled it back and we took out actually the point of sale right before Abercrombie left, Page 29 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 but he still didn't sign the bill, I mean didn't sign the rules, so, it just sat on his desk. For me, the priority was, at that time, let's ban new cesspools, especially on this island because they were doing 500 to 800 new cesspools every year. So, the strategy was pull it back, see—because when I went and did my meetings, there wasn't any opposition to banning new cesspools. But, there was a lot on the point of sale. So, it's like, get something done first and then work on the other stuff later. Because if you try to like—if you think you can get everything done at one time, you're just slowing the process, right? So, that's why we rewrote the rules, pushed the cesspool, the ban of new cesspools, and then got that passed. Then, we tried to work with the legislators to see what else we could do. Then, they came up with the mandatory upgrade by 2050. But again, that's just a step, right? Because like I was saying, as we get data we can show that this area is being impacted by cesspools. We actually can take that mandate and make it a shorter date or do something where something has to be done to correct this water quality and water pollution problem. MS. RUGGLES: Thanks. Yeah, and the more I think about this, the more I'm realizing what a critical issue this is. Because we are growing so quickly, and by the time we hit that critical point, it might be too late. We only have really one shot at protecting our natural resources here, and our systems are already—we have systems that are going extinct already. So, it's really urgent that we deal with this because everyone is coming here, and then if we destroy our oceans, and our limu, and our fish, it's going to ruin the point of even being here. Anyway, thank you. I'll yield. MS. O'HARA: Thank you, Ms. Ruggles. I see Mr. Kanuha, you have another question? MR. KANUHA: Yeah, just briefly. I remember going through that process when the rules came out several years ago. It was a huge issue for Hawaii Island, especially. I know a lot of the public came out against that because of the point of sale. And I'm glad you guys stuck with it to at least restrict the new cesspools because that was, to me, the biggest issue going on. But, it became a big political issue for Abercrombie, especially, when he was running for governor again. So, I can understand why he didn't sign it or didn't move that forward. But, we're here to work with you as well into the future and work with our State Legislature. I know Nicole Lowen, especially, when she was crafting a few of these bills that she spoke to us on how it would affect Hawaii County. So, I'm glad that they were working with us on those specific things, so, please work Page 30 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 with us. We're here to make sure that we can take care of not only our people, but our environment, too. Thank you. CHR. O'HARA: Thank you. Any other questions from Council? Okay, I'm going to wrap this up then. Thank you so much, Sina, for coming over from Oahu. I know that was something that you didn't have to do, so, I really appreciate that you were able to make it. There were a couple of things said recently that I think it's important to clarify for the public, who may be listening. When Sina began, she addressed the issue of the Puhi Bay outfall and said that water is being chlorinated. Later on, Ms. Eoff referenced the difference between disinfected and treated. I would like to ask Mr. Kurcharski to explain the chlorinated residual required to expel that water from the wastewater system into Hilo Bay. MR. KUCHARSKI: Bill Kucharski, DEM. They're really two issues, one is when we chlorinate, we also have to dechlorinate. So, we have a contact period because chlorine kills organisms. When we have a contained group of organisms in sewage, you want them dead. But, when you get out in the bay, you don't want to kill anything that's alive out there, so, we chlorinate and then we have to dechlorinate. The residual from—at the point of testing to discharge is not going to be the same because that chlorine is going to dissipate as it goes. It's going to be active. I will have to check on what our permit conditions are for our discharge. One of the things that we do, we have to take what's called zone of mixing and when the water comes out, it comes out and it will form a zone. It will get mixed. There's a diffuser that the end of the pipe just isn't a pipe, it doesn't just shoot out. It goes through a diffuser to mix that water, and we are required to test at the end of the zones of mixing to determine that we meet all of the standards. And that is being done. I don't know those numbers precisely, but I can get them to you and to the Council as to what those are. But, that is one of the issues we have. We we want to chlorinate enough to kill the organisms in the system, but we then have to dechlorinate so that we don't kill everything at the point of discharge. I don't have those precise numbers. CHR. O'HARA: Thank you for that explanation. The other question we talked about the intertie with Honokohau Harbor and what is the status on that from DEM's perspective? MR. KUCHARSKI: From DEM's perspective, again, Bill Kucharski. There was a meeting that we had between the governor's representative and DLNR about their connection, and the County will have the line in place by 2020, which was the full commitment for the R1 System to be in place. It is then up to the State to connect. We have no control over the State, over their funding, over their construction, but they know when the facility is going to—the pipe is lined, Page 31 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 it's going to be available and the discussion revolved around when they would put it in budget and they chose not to put in this year's budget. So again, that's up to DLNR and Harbors to deal with that issue, but the County will be ready. CHR. O'HARA: Okay, thank you for that update. And then my last question, Sina, you referenced, I think you said Kea'au, but I think you were referring to the subdivision of Hawaiian Paradise Park when you talked about the wells being dropped in and the private wastewater systems. What is theI know that's going to be on your priority list, but what exactly is the action that you're recommending there? MS. PRUDER: Because we—well it'll—that would probably be part of the study. I think at least one of the things is that we're probably going to have to inform owners who have these wells of the risk. If the cesspools—again, we have to show, just like in Kahalu`u, that the cesspools are influenced of the wells. But, it would be our responsibility to at least inform these residents of our concern. But, what they would have to do is either—so we would either probably require upgrades of cesspools located upstream, or these people would have to probably dig their wells deeper. I mean, we're not sure at this time. We'd have to look at it and come up with solutions for that area. CHR. O'HARA: Okay. Thank you for that. And you also brought up Kapoho where I believe the community association has changed their bylaws to require aerobic septic systems for new construction. What else would be of concern for you in terms of that area? MS. PRUDER: So, that's for new construction, right? We still have to address the homes that have cesspools and they're not planning on coming in with building permits. So, if we can get the data that shows that their cesspools are impacting the near shore waters, they're right there by the tidal pools, so, it would be addressing those homes. Because not all of them come with a building permit, so, they can keep their grandfathered cesspools. That's not acceptable, so, what do we do as a department to address these areas, right? CHR. O'HARA: Okay, thank you. And my last question is about private sewer systems in the area that I represent, lower Puna and Pahoa Village. We have no sewage system in place. We're hopeful that maybe that will change sometime down the road, but, with the current status of development, new shopping center going in, they're doing their own wastewater system, which is going to involve creating something of a wetland, which seems a little odd to me because Pahoa would not have be conventionally a wetland area. So, I'm just kind of curious. Page 32 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 I know there's a lot of technology out there for small wastewater systems. We have a PCMC, that's our Puna Community Medical Center, wanting to move forward and they're looking at an individual wastewater system as well. Of course, these are at considerable expense to any development in the district, but doing a municipal wastewater system will also be an expense that we have to incur. So, I'm just kind of curious how you're dealing with all of these different technologies for small capacity wastewater systems. MS. PRUDER: So, I'm familiar with that design. I mean they say wetlands, but it's not actually wetlands because it's actually just dry—it's a dry bed wetlands. It's actually underground where they have a series—they have a series of media beds where wastewater passes through, but they also have vegetation growing. So, you won't see it. First time I saw it, I thought wetlands, I thought water and like the vegetation, you couldn't see anything. It was just rocks, but then the vegetation actually grows. They have this media pack bed. The media pack bed is like a secondary that actually treats the wastewater. Then by growing plants, it actually helps to uptake the nitrogen that you have in the water. That's why they have these wetlands. But, that system's actually good because you had some—and that is a type of system that is being promoted in the states, like a natural wetland's system. I mean they call it wetlands, but then you'll go over there and you won't even see it. There's probably no odors or anything, but that is a really good system that they are putting there. And we are requiring them also to put in leach fields, no injection wells. So, they're actually required to put in a primary and a backup leach field because even with—the treated effluent coming out of there is going to be good, but the leach fields, does it actually help to treat the water even more, instead of putting it into an injection well, which is just pretty much a hole in the ground? It has a direct, probably faster contact to groundwater. So, what the leach field does, it also improves the treatment coming out of the treatment plant. So, you know, a lot of times when they do come in, these are—it costs them more money, but it's better for the environment. MR. KUCHARSKI: Bill Kucharski. That is what we're doing at Kealakehe for our water that we're going to be disposing of, and not reusing as RI. It will go through the engineered wetlands, which will be covered, not only to keep water fowl away because we're close to the airport but also, you don't get as you're not going to get any of the evapotranspiration increase of the salinity of that water. So, those are all covered. CHR. O'HARA: Alright. Thank you all. Very informative and thank you again for visiting us over here in Hilo. I may follow up with some questions over the phone because I think I still have a few, but thank you so much. And I think we can call for a vote to file this. All in favor of filing Communication. 452 please say "aye." Page 33 EMC -7 October 3, 2017 Vote on Comm. 452: The motion to close file on Comm. 452 was carried by the Filed following voice vote: Ayes: Council Members David, Eoff, Kanuha, Lee Loy, Poindexter, Richards, Ruggles, and Chair O'Hara — 8. Noes: None. Absent: Council Member Chung — 1. Excused: None. CHR. O'HARA: That concludes our committee meeting, so, may I ask for a motion to adjourn? ADJOURN- There being no further business, at 12:22 p.m., Mr. Richards moved to adjourn the MENT: meeting. Seconded by Ms. Eoff and was carried by the following voice vote: Ayes: Council Members David, Eoff, Kanuha, Lee Loy, Poindexter, Richards, Ruggles, and Chair O'Hara — 8. Noes: None. Absent: Council Member Chung — 1. Excused: None. CHR. O'HARA: Thank you very much. Meeting adjourned. Approved: 6A,4,�- L14: - Ms. Eileen O'Hara, Chair Environmental Management Committee EO/jm Ia (Date) Page 34