Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAboutMIN AWEEMC 2019/11/19 2018-2020Committee on Agriculture, Water, Energy, and Environmental Management 13th Session Hawaii County Building 74-5044 Ane Keohokalole Highway, Building A Kailua-Kona, Hawaii November 19, 2019 CALL TO The regular meeting of the Committee on Agriculture, Water, Energy, ORDER: and Environmental Management was called to order at 9:41 a.m., in the Council Chambers, Kailua-Kona, by Mr. Herbert M. "Tim" Richards, III, Chair. ROLL CALL: Present: Mr. Herbert M. "Tim" Richards, III, Chair Mr. Matt Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder, Vice Chair (via videoconference from Hilo) Mr. Aaron S. Y. Chung, Member Ms. Maile Medeiros David, Member Ms. Karen Eoff, Member Ms. Ashley L. Kierkiewicz, Member Ms. Susan L. K. Lee Loy, Member Ms. Valerie T. Poindexter, Member Ms. Rebecca Villegas, Member STATEMENTS The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, FROM THE Statements from the Public on Agenda Items. PUBLIC ON AGENDA ITEMS: The Chair called Bill Bugbee, who registered to speak in support of Comm. 597, and came forward when called. CHR. RICHARDS: Okay, that closed public testimony at this point. We're going to take things out of order a little bit. So Clerk, what I'd like to do is take out of orderI know that Georjean Adams is not in chambers today, but we're going to move this forward to Council, so please read in Communication 611. Change Order As directed by the Chair and with no objection from the Council Members, the of Business: following item was taken out of order: COMMUNI- The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, CATIONS: Communications. Comm. 611: NOMINATION OF GEORJEAN L. ADAMS TO THE ENVIRONMENTAL MANAGEMENT COMMISSION From Mayor Harry Kim, dated October 31, 2019, submitting for the Council's review and confirmation the above nomination. AWEEMC-13 Motion to Approve: Ms. Lee Loy moved to recommend confirmation of the appointment of Ms. Georjean L. Adams to the Environmental Management Commission. Seconded by Ms. Eoff. CHR. RICHARDS: Recess for five minutes. Recess: At 9:49 a.m., the Chair called for a recess. Reconvene: The meeting reconvened at 9:50 a.m. November 19, 2019 CHR. RICHARDS: We are back in session. Ms. Bautista, please go ahead. (Note: At this time, Executive Assistant to the Mayor Rose Bautista came forward and provided a brief narrative of the nominee.) CHR. RICHARDS: Thank you, Ms. Bautista. Now we've done this before. We do not have the candidate before us, but in the interest of expediting this and moving it to full Council, she's not here; she will be in Council to answer questions. I know her, I'm going to be supporting this nomination in going forward. And so I see fingers waiving, so let me open this up. Council Woman, Poindexter. MS. POINDEXTER: Yeah, is there a time constraint with this if we don't move it to Council? CHR. RICHARDS: It's my understanding, yes, so we have a full commission going forward as of the end of the year. MS. POINDEXTER: But if—can I ask Ms. Bautista a question? CHR. RICHARDS: Yes, go ahead. MS. POINDEXTER: Yeah, Rose, say this was held back in Committee yet. I know there's so many days that have to go by before the person can be on the commission. And if it doesn't, and then it defaults to something, or can you explain that? Is that what's happening here? MS. BAUTISTA: Yeah, apparently if she doesn't getI'm not too clear on that, but from what I recall, I'm sorry, if she doesn't get nominated and doesn't get forwarded, the nomination stands. In order words, she will get nominated. MS. POINDEXTER: Okay. So it's better for us to move it forward so that we can hear from her and ask any questions if we need to. Thank you, Chair for that. Page 2 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 CHR. RICHARDS: Thank you, Val for posing the question. Any other comments or questions from the committee? Go ahead, Karen. MS. EOFF: I would like to say from reading her background. She's obviously very well qualified, and she's just coming off of the Solid Waste Management Commission. So her knowledge would be a perfect fit to move to the Environmental Management Commission. I hope she does show up so we can meet her. But I think if time if of an essence, it would be probably wise to go ahead and move her along. Thank you. CHR. RICHARDS: Any other comments or questions from the committee? Seeing none. I do know Georjean. We've met and we've discussed things. Her credentials are self-evident. She's coming off the Solid Waste and so, it's going to dovetail in very nicely to this. So seeing no further questions or comments, I will call for the vote, all in favor please signify by saying "aye." Vote on Comm. 611: The motion to recommend confirmation of the (Approved) appointment of Ms. Georjean L. Adams to the Environmental Management Commission was carried by the following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Chung, David, Eoff, Kierkiewicz, Lee Loy, Poindexter, Villegas, and Chair Richards — 8. Noes: None. Absent: Committee Member Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder —1. Excused: None. CHR. RICHARDS: Okay, thank you. And thank you, Rose for taking this out of order. Then Clerk, coming back to Communication 597, please. Comm. 597: REQUESTS A PRESENTATION BY DR. CHARLES FLETCHER, PROFESSOR OF EARTH SCIENCES AT THE UNIVERSITY OF HAWAII SCHOOL OF OCEAN AND EARTH SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY, REGARDING PACIFIC PALEO-SEA LEVEL RISE AND USE OF THE RESULTING DATA BY GOVERNMENT AGENCIES From Council Member Karen Eoff, dated October 31, 2019 Motion to Close File: Ms. Eoff moved to close file on Comm. 597. Seconded by Ms. David. CHR. RICHARDS: We have Dr. Fletcher. Please come forward. We did the procedural stuff Now, you can actually teach us something. Alright, so are we good. Is it communicating to Hilo? Are we good to go? Alright Dr. Fletcher, you are on deck and go ahead. Page 3 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 (Note: At this time, Associate Dean for Academic Affairs and Professor of Earth Sciences, School of Ocean and Earth Science and Technology (SOEST) with the University of Hawaii Dr. Charles "Chip" Fletcher, came forward and provided a PowerPoint presentation to the members of the Committee. For viewing of the presentation, see the DVD copy of the proceedings on file in the Clerk's Office, or online at http://hawaiicounty.granicus.com.) DR. FLETCHER: So, I'm just about done. And I want you to know that eating plant -based foods is the most powerful personal way to reduce your impact on the planet, simply increasing the plant component of your diet. So eat a more plant -based diet. Talk about climate change. I get climate news every morning. Vote to repair the climate to protect natural ecosystems and to improve the resiliency of our communities. And our communities need to move together. It's not just about personal action, it's about collective action. And I want to thank you for your time, and I'll be happy to take any questions you might have. Thank you. CHR. RICHARDS: Okay, first of all, thank you very much, and I appreciate the presentation. Before we get into a question and answer, we're going to take a seven -minute break. We've been at this for a couple hours, so we are in recess for seven minutes. We'll be back in at 11:21. Recess: At 11:14 a.m., the Chair called for a recess. Reconvene: The meeting reconvened at 11:21 a.m. CHR. RICHARDS: Back in session. Okay, Dr. Fletcher, again thank you very much for the presentation. At this point, we're going to open it up to questions. Council Chair, I think you flagged me first. So, please go ahead. MR. CHUNG: Thank you. And Karen, thank you very much for bringing Dr. Fletcher here. You know, Dr. Fletcher, I conjure up a lot of stuff in this brain of mine from time to time, and they're all frightening things. So much so, that my wife has told me that I live in a scary world. I'd hate to thinkI'm just kind of wondering what your wife tells you. Because this was even more frightening than what I could conjure up, really. And you know, Dr. Fletcher, I don't know, you're from Oahu, but you know, I've been receiving a good amount of ribbing lately because of some comments that I made a few weeks ago about the future of our planet. Basically, I said it's too late. It's not to say that, you know, we should give up hope or not try. But as far as reversing it, I think, you know, maybe 10,000, 20,000 years from now. You know, but we're just pretty much staving off the inevitable. Page 4 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 I don't see glaciers coming back anytime soon in our lifetime. It's just not happening. But having said that, though, thank you very much for this in-depth premier on climate change. Very eye-opening. I never really—you know, I had intuitively thought that it had, global warming, climate change, had some effects, not just on our environment, but socio-economic stuff And then you really brought it to light I mean, when you talked about, you know, political upheaval and things; and just governments being changed on that basis. Very, very interesting stuff DR. FLETCHER: Thank you. MR. CHUNG: But now I'm going to bring it back more local, okay. Two years ago you and Josh Sandbro and others had a talk at the Hawaii State Association of Counties' (HSAC) annual conference. And I am hoping that you'll be able to also attend and give a presentation at our conference which is occurring next year in June, but we'll talk to you about that. DR. FLETCHER: I'd love to. MR. CHUNG: Because it was kind of good, you know, two years ago, but a lot has changed over the last two years. So you can give an update on that, right? I mean you can never have enough of these types of presentations in my opinion. But you and I had a brief chat, and the two things that I thought were interesting as it related to our island and our state were that—and correct me if I'm wrong because, you know, Karen and I was on the radio one day, and then I actually described you as being, in my opinion, the preeminent authority on climate change in our state, maybe even beyond. DR. FLETCHER: Thank you. MR. CHUNG: But if I recall correctly, things that stood out in my mind were, and I could have been wrong, one, and you showed it in your presentation, the path of future hurricanes. And I think you told me, it was just a short chat, that what we really have to look out for now whereas in the past, hurricanes would just kind of go past us and even go maybe south, veer south. But because of climate change, we run the risk—well, the future holds in store for us a scenario whereby hurricanes would come towards Hawaii; kind of linger for a while and shoot up straight north. And that's what was indicated in your charts, and this was two years ago, and that's kind of what happened with Hurricane Lane, actually. So when that happened, I was thinking, hey, that's what Dr. Fletcher said. And so on that point, is that something we're going to have to expect now? DR. FLETCHER: So minor correction. Page 5 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 MR. CHUNG: Okay. DR. FLETCHER: So the pathways are shifting away from the equator, which puts it more along the same latitude as the Hawaiian Islands. And they are moving slower and they're stronger. The shooting north bit is not correct. They will go in different directions based on what the steering winds will determine. But the basic point is that we are much more vulnerable to tropical storms which are bad as well as hurricanes. MR. CHUNG: But when I looked at this chart that you had presented the 2018 Hurricane season, it seemed to indicate that they were all moving up north. DR. FLETCHER: So that pathways are shifting to the north, but I took your language to mean that they're taking a hard bend and heading due north, but that's not the case. MR. CHUNG: That's what I had thought that you meant, but I see what you mean now. But is there a tendency for it to linger? DR. FLETCHER: They're moving slower. MR. CHUNG: Which is not good, right? DR. FLETCHER: Correct. MR. CHUNG: Yeah, okay. So in that sense, we have to be prepared. DR. FLETCHER: Yes. MR. CHUNG: And the other one was that, and perhaps I got this wrong, that in terms of sea level rise, and you know, we have to take precautions, of course, in terms of planning and building codes and other things. But, unless I totally misunderstood what you said, you told me that actually the Big Island wasn't in that bad of shape. DR. FLETCHER: Yeah, that's my opinion. You have a lot more topography. Your coastline, you don't have broad low-lying coastal planes that used to be wetlands. The island is subsiding; your island is subsiding. So the rate of sea level rise here is greater than Oahu, but most of your infrastructure is up away from the coast. The withdrawal of Hilo community following the tsunamis 50-60 years ago has opened up a great safety zone there that really provides a lot of protection for you. The Department of Transportation (DOT) is aware of sea level impacts to your ports and is evaluating those, statewide in fact. So yes, you have some localized Page 6 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 sea level exposure and you have beach erosion, but you're in far better shape than islands to the north. MR. CHUNG: And speaking of the Department of Transportation, you know, I was once alerted to a study. And you know, you're probably more privy to this kind of information. Where at least one person, and it might be an extremist view, though, actually suggested—are you familiar with Hilo and the roads there? DR. FLETCHER: I don't know individual streets, but yes I've been there couple dozen times. MR. CHUNG: Well, someone actually suggested, and I think it was a study done for the Department of Transportation which suggested that we have to take precautions for a sea level rise all the way up to about Komohana Street. DR. FLETCHER: Where's that? MR. CHUNG: That's a major arterial connecting—and I could be wrong, maybe it was Kino`ole, but it was something way inland. I'm just wondering if you knew of anything like that. DR. FLETCHER: The open area there in front of the main commercial district is very low-lying, and you have ponds. Those are sources of flooding. They flow out of their banks. The set of gas stations in that area are—they're flooded already on certain occasions. But when you come into the commercial district, you have sort of the front street area and then things quickly move uphill. So I don't think anything on the uphill portion is threatened. And even that, you know, seaward most line of the commerce is in pretty good shape for a while, provided Antarctica behaves. MR. CHUNG: Alright, that's good to know, because I do view you as the Preeminent man in this field. Okay, but thank you very much for coming. DR. FLETCHER: May I make a short comment on your view of the future? MR. CHUNG: You can, but it's hard for me to go head to head with the preeminent man on climate change. It is my view, and you know, I will say this and it was based on this, population. You know, when I looked at this chart here one of the first charts that you showed had to do with CO2 emissions, I think. And that chart started from 1880, I believe, right? DR. FLETCHER: Correct. MR. CHUNG: And I'm not an expert in this area. Everything I do is based on intuition. But I bet that if you charted the world population from 1880 to now, it would resemble this chart where you go from maybe 1850, it's going up. And all Page 7 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 of a sudden, exponential growth. And I don't see that, you know, really changing anytime soon. And that's why I think—you know, I'm not saying we should give up hope, and I'm not saying we shouldn't try to do whatever we can to hold this thing off But my feeling is we're not reversing it. But, that's only my feeling. DR. FLETCHER: Human population growth is an enormous driver of all of this, both the climate change itself and then as an additional factor, I don't believe that we are going to suddenly decrease our carbon emissions. I don't believe that we're going to stop warming at two degrees. I think we'll reach three degrees. I see signs that we will stop between two and three degrees. We're currently on track for four degrees. There's a concept. So as we approach two degrees, there are a number of economists that are saying that the world will start to realize the climate crisis later in the decade of the 2020's; late in 2020's. And as warming progresses beyond there we may see a decline or a total end to global trade. If we see an end to global trade our set of islands here needs to be strongly self-sufficient. And there's a term that a futurist uses, Duane Elgan. He describes lifeboat communities. He describes communities that are ready for what's coming that have great self sufficiency for energy and food in manufacturing, and that in fact, can really thrive. The ideal setting for a lifeboat community of Pu`uhonua, if you will, is one that is not out of continent and is far from any international borders. Because it's these border zones which are already turning into conflict regions. Hawaii is extremely well-suited for that, and I don't really look at our strong efforts in building renewable energy as important for the climate change issue. I look at it as important for our own resiliency in a future that's going to be very difficult for us. We're lagging behind in the area of food production, and I think there's a lot we can do there. This same futurist describes coming out at the end of the century are grandchildren having a profound appreciation and respect for each other and the earth. And in fact, we're looking at the end of a 50,000 year long experiment during which humanity thought that it was separate from nature. And it's a failed experiment, and humanity will realize we have to go back to nature. I believe that we'll do it in a fully digital modern technologically advanced way but we won't look at nature from an extractive point anymore, we will look at it as truly a familiar loving relationship. And I think all these aspects Hawaii has in spades, right? It's sort of a beautiful hypostasis. The dark part is that there's a lot of pain between here and now, and global population is going to have to decrease. But so, I think Hawaii is well suited but we still have a lot more work to do. MR. CHUNG: Very well said, but thank you very much. Page 8 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 CHR. RICHARDS: Thank you, Chair. Council Woman Eof£ MS. EOFF: Thank you, Mr. Chair. And thank you again, Dr. Fletcher for taking time to come here today and give us such an in-depth analysis of what we're looking at today. I think, well I really appreciate what you just said because I feel that you perfectly articulated the reason why we have hope, and the reason why Hawaii Island or the State of Hawaii is going in the right direction with all of our sort of progressive trends that we're starting to look at. So I feel very, very hopeful, and I'm so glad you just put that out there because I was also getting kind of depressed earlier about an hour ago looking at the facts you presented. So it is alarming, and thank my fellow Council Members for getting us to this point today, too. We've done several initiatives along the way that made us ready to hear what you had to say. And what I would like to ask you is, I know you've done more extensive work on other islands, like I think Maui and Kauai, as far as helping draft new policies regarding some of the ways that we can be more prepared in our long-range planning efforts and building codes, etcetera. Is that something you can work with us on or can I work with you on maybe starting the ball rolling in certain mostly important areas? DR. FLETCHER: Yeah absolutely, I would love to. MS. EOFF: I mean, I don't think thatI'm not sure if all the islands; I know we don't have a separate sort of like climate change or resiliency department. Other islands may already have that. I don't know if we would be in the right time to create a new department, but maybe a division of a department is something we can work towards to consolidate our efforts. DR. FLETCHER: So Honolulu has an office of Climate Change, Sustainability and Resiliency, and it was a voting initiative that was voted in with a margin of 17 percent which is very high. And at the same time, they created a Climate Change Commission, and there are four scientists and one head of an architectural company on the Climate Change Commission. And we write white papers with our opinions on various things. We've provided guidance on sea level rise; we've provided a climate change brief, which is a quick reference to a lot of the discouraging things I said here today. And we're in the midst of issuing a white paper on a new set -back law, which is that no -build zone from the shoreline to where you are allowed to develop the land. We have plans for architecture white papers for social equity; white papers for others. Maui and Kauai do not have departments or commissions like that. There is a State Commission for climate change, and that is staffed not by resource persons Page 9 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 but by department heads. The Governor's executive heads that he's appointed. They meet quarterly. Our Climate Change Commission meets at least monthly and sometimes more often, but we have no authority. We simply crank out ideas. MS. EOFF: Right, well, that's important though. And I know what you mean about this island, our topography, etcetera. But we still do have a lot of low-lying areas, and we have aging infrastructure in areas that may be affected by sea level or saltwater intrusion, etcetera. And we have a wetland and poi -pond system on the west side of this island. Some of us recently attended the Maui Planning Conference, Conference of Planners, I think it was called. And I attended several workshops and saw some really graphic pictures of what you were describing earlier on different islands with overflowing ponds, rivers, and streams; and gulches, etcetera. DR. FLETCHER: Right. Yeah, your alkaline ponds are going to migrate uphill. MS. EOFF: And there is some pretty low-lying development along the west coast too. So yeah, I guess at some point I really think it would be a good initiative to take up to map our island better and start to look at either establishing a commission or some sort of a division of a department. DR. FLETCHER: I've been told that there's funding coming through the Federal Government to do a new round of sea -level rise mapping, and it's sufficient funding to include your island and Molokai. It'll take a few years but once we get the federal budget signed—we're waiting for that, and this money is not diverted for things other than what we're hoping it will be. We should be getting a strong grant for one year plus same amount for future years, and we're going to start doing more robust sea -level rise mapping and coastal erosion mapping; a wave run-up mapping and things like that. MS. EOFF: Thank you. And thank you again for the hopeful vision for Hawaii. DR. FLETCHER: Yeah, thank you for having me here. CHR. RICHARDS: Thank you, Karen. Rebecca, go ahead. MS. VILLEGAS: Aloha. Thank you for being here and for your really incredibly inclusive and connected presentation in the way that you took facts and statistics and numbers and tied them to these socioeconomic consequences for our planet, as well as environmental and economical. I just have a couple questions and comments that I was hoping for a couple insights from you. This is a topic very close to my heart. And I'm aware that, and you obviously worked closely with Josh Stanbro and their team, but Maui and Oahu have both declared participation in climate litigation. And you know, I really appreciate you Page 10 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 saying that the Big Island is set up better. When I think of looking at the maps that you presented of Oahu, that's potentially completely catastrophic. And the population difference between Oahu and the Big Island is as drastically different as is our topography. But being a more rural area, we have smaller areas that are like—Kona town is the district that I represent in this area. And so I'm really excited and interested in what Council Woman Eoff suggested, and it is the opportunity for getting mapping of what and how Kona would be affected. I think of Puako; I think of Miloli`i and our fishing villages. And while not as populated as Oahu, still very, very susceptible to inundation. DR. FLETCHER: Of course, and very important. Absolutely. MS. VILLEGAS: Yeah, okay. I also brought to mind in having recently spoken to some different attorneys and professors in what Chair Chung mentioned about the potential correlation between the increase in our populations and this drastic increase in our CO2 omissions. I guess my question to you would be, because according to some of the information that I have been reading about and hearing, is that actually—let's see, so as you stated greenhouse gas is natural phenomenon, correct? DR. FLETCHER: Yes. MS. VILLEGAS: But humans are responsible for the increase in these greenhouse gases in the last 150 years. And agriculture and deforestation are responsible for 25 percent of that greenhouse gas. DR. FLETCHER: Those numbers vary, but, yes. MS. VILLEGAS: Okay, guesstimation. So, but the other 75 percent is from coal, oil, and gas from the fossil fuel. DR. FLETCHER: Roughly. MS. VILLEGAS: Roughly, okay, which has increased by more than half since like the `80's? DR. FLETCHER: The amount of CO2 in the air? MS. VILLAGES: Yeah, something like that? DR. FLETCHER: Since the 1980's? So, yeah in the 1970's we initiated the clean -air acts. There were several clean -air acts and that cleaned up emissions coming out of manufacturing. And so what had been a lot of soot in the air that had blocked sunlight went away, we allowed more sunlight in and we had cleaner Page 11 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 air and better health benefits, but, we accelerated global warming by doing that. So shot ourselves in the foot a little bit, but you know, take your pick. Yeah, so towards the end of the 70's and the 1980's we saw strong acceleration in global warming. MS. VILLEGAS: Okay, so I guess my point—I'll just cut to the chase here. I hear a lot of people saying that population, essentially massive population growth is at fault for much of our increase in carbon emission. Where my question would be, isn't that really tied to the fossil fuel industry? I mean there's a correlation between population and fossil fuels, but the direct connection between increase in population is not on a timeline necessarily, or does it correlate with our increase in carbon emissions, and thus the change in temperatures? DR. FLETCHER: So, I'm not sure if you have heard from someone who is diminishing the role greenhouse gas emissions, fossil fuel use, and saying instead it's human population growth— MS. VILLEGAS: No, and I'll just say, I believe the opposite, but I've heard from some—it's like that pooh-poohed, "Oh, we can't fix it because there's too many people." Or, I guess in my mind, I go, wait a minute, there's some correlation between some emissions. DR. FLETCHER: Yes, I mean, global population growth is absolutely at the root of this problem. A population that is addicted to oil as its primary source of energy— Point of Order: MS. VILLEGAS: If I could just call a point of order (noise from audience). I'm sorry, I'm just being distracted. Thank you. DR. FLETCHER: Also at the root of this problem is that same population addicted to oil; addicted to coal and fossil fuel. So it's all part of the same thing. MS. VILLEGAS: It is all connected. DR. FLETCHER: You know, you could speculate, would CO2 have risen if population growth had stopped? Probably not as strongly. Would CO2 have risen if population growth had been stronger, but we had turned more to renewable energy, but still some CO2 emission? Hard to say. So I don't find it profitable to parse them out into different things. I think they're all part of the very same very complex problem. MS. VILLEGAS: Okay, awesome. Thank you for that. I really appreciate that. And lastly, well not quite lastly, food production. Talking about the agricultural industry, I'm wondering from your expert standpoint, you know, we're talking—I really appreciated that last video which talked about agriculture being this potential for carbon sequestration with healthier soils. And I wondered in your Page 12 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 experience from your perspective, looking at industrial agriculture and historical use of chemicals in that process and a more technology-based agriculture. Looking forward to a healthier food production model. How do you see those? And in general, would you recommend that as society and community — I mean I'm seeing stuff about insects being adversely affected, and the populations dying. And I've heard correlation between chemical usage and the devastation of our pollinators. And so just wondering as you look at a food production model moving forward, do you have an idea of how that connects? DR. FLETCHER: Yes. So the tiny nation of Holland is the second largest exporter of food in the world. And they have done this by what's known as microagriculture. Almost all of their food is grown in large warehouses. They have dialed in the water; the nutrients, the soil. They use LED (light -emitting diode) lights that are programmed to the exact wave length that the chlorophyll g -home of, you know, asparagus or broccoli or what have you. It maximizes incoming sunlight. It's all very high tech. They have vertical agriculture and the amount of pollution is almost zero. They don't over -fertilize. They don't have a pest problem. But it is all indoors, which is why they don't have these big problems. So, I also know that we have culturally -based traditional agriculture, which I think needs to be enhanced and expanded here in Hawaii. I think the use of chemicals is a very bad idea, and I think we are poisoning ourselves. And also, this sort of high tech warehouse agriculture, regenerative farming of outdoor fields, I think they all have a place. And you know, I see a mosaic of agricultural options for us to follow, and we need to push these as much as possible. I think we should have government subsidies for these. MS. VILLEGAS: Thank you, I really appreciate that. That's really helpful with a lot of the different things we're looking at here. And just lastly, as we are currently—our General Plan is underway and our CDP (Community Development Plans) plans are coming together. One of the great opportunities I had was meeting with somebody talking about our waterways. And as we're looking at transitions of rain patterns and flooding and some of our streams that use to be hundred -year floods, but that are happening much quicker, I just am hopeful that we might be able to reach out to you to incorporate those technologies. Because as we potentially approve of other developments, new developments on the island, it seems that there was a prior—and it totally makes sense that when you're looking at a development in a potential close to a stream or whatnot, then you're making exceptions or amendments or requirements for the structures that are being built to be safe if there is flooding, right? Page 13 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 A post and pier; lifting them, but as we transition sort of into this broader understanding of what's happening when the flooding comes down. I would like to see it, I'm hopeful that the science—it sounds like it's all there. But in consideration, that if we're building on those places that water is going to flow through, it is then going to take anything and everything in its path to the ocean thus increasing the acidification and the bleaching and whatnot. And so, it's not just taking into consideration, the buildings or the structures, but any kind of footprint that humans are making and any materials or roadways or whatnot that then come within that parameter. Then we're kind of compounding the challenges we're facing that we're trying to cure that we continue to cycle through. Does that make sense? DR. FLETCHER: Yeah, I think one of the most important things that we are capable to do with regard to reefs or coastal ecosystems is to stop stressing them and allow them to react to the stresses that they're getting from ocean warming and ocean acidification. So you know, coral reefs have to battle us off and also have to battle off climate change expressed through changing water conditions. Let's back away, let's stop overfishing, let's stop polluting. That's an important part of allowing our coral reefs to attempt to survive rising temperature and acidification of the oceans. MS. VILLEGAS: They're our forests of the sea. And I just really want to thank you for being here. As heartbreaking as so many of those slides were, unfortunately it seems that humanity—as humans we take ourselves to the ultimate until we are inspired or required to make changes. DR. FLETCHER: Yeah, it's funny isn't it? MS. VILLEGAS: Yeah, we're a really interesting species. But it reminded of the statute of Einstein in Washington, D.C. and one of the quotes engraved on that statue says, "The right to search for truth implies also a duty. One must not conceal any part of what one has recognized to be true." And to me, that's a real call about kuleana and knowing something then makes it our responsibility to live and abide by that knowledge and not deny it. So I want to thank you for being here today and sharing your breadth of knowledge and experience; and insights and optimism with us. And I hope that we'll have an opportunity, not just myself personally, but as a County to work together for the betterment of not only our Island, but our State. So, thank you again. Aloha. DR. FLETCHER: Thank you, Council Member. CHR. RICHARDS: Thank you, Rebecca. I got a message that Matt, you have a question from Hilo. Are you on? Page 14 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: I do, thank you. Dr. Fletcher, thank you. That was a good presentation, very informative. My question is, I attended a meeting in Hilo, I don't know if it was yourself or someone else, but they talked about GIA (Glacial Isostatic Adjustment). And there was, and I don't think you touched on that today, or maybe you did and I missed it? DR. FLETCHER: I did not. Would you like an explanation? MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: I think a brief explanation, you know, quick, maybe just sum it up for the Council. But the major takeaway that I got from Glacial Isostatic Adjustment is that sea level rise will be more prevalent and increased at the equatorial areas versus areas like farther away from our equator due to the nature of distribution of water and the way our planet is rotating. Which puts actually Hawaii in one of the, not worst places, but a worse place in the world as far as sea level is concerned. So if you could touch on that briefly just to give the information, because I felt that was a very important aspect to sea level rise that I didn't understand. DR. FLETCHER: Yeah, thanks for asking that question. So when we talk about sea level rise, we're talking about global mean sea level rise. So a global average, but that global average is made up of places where there's less sea level rise, and other places where there's more sea level rise than the average. If you can imagine that ice, like all solid matter, has a gravitational field associated with it, so Greenland with its huge ice cap has an attractive gravity that pulls water towards it, and the North Atlantic actually slopes upward towards Greenland because the gravity of the ice pulls it. And Antarctica has this massive ice cap that exerts gravity and pulls water towards it. As that ice melts, the gravity decreases and that water is no longer attracted to the ice and it flows elsewhere. And when all of this settles out, it turns out that the tropical Pacific, and indeed around the Hawaiian Islands, may experience as much as 20 percent more sea level rise than the global average. Because in what's really an unfair irony, the places melting ice that are causing sea level rise actually experience sea level fall. So in compensation for that, we experience more sea level rise than the global average. Did that clarify it? MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Yeah, that was very clarifying, and it was amazing for me when I learned that. I think the normal expected or the expected mean sea level rise would be—was it like three to five feet? Does that sound right? DR. FLETCHER: Well, that's a moving target. So the guidance that we've provided the City and County of Honolulu is plan for a little over three feet of sea level rise this century. But for major projects that cannot tolerate risk, plan for six feet. Page 15 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: And that, I think, that was what I understood too. But as that presentation I attended went on, it became clear that if you take into account melting of the water and water displacement due to the melting of the poles, then we actually look at a possible seven to 13 -foot sea level rise if you take into account very high tides and storm surges and things like that. DR. FLETCHER: Potentially. I like to be brave and expect humanity to decrease their emissions so that maybe the absolute worse -case scenario will not materialize. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: I like your optimism. I think it's good for people to understand that if we do not get off the track we're on, then as an island in the middle of the Pacific, although I would like to see us shine as a pillar of sustainability, we also have the most to lose during sea level rise, as long as rest of the equatorial areas, due to the actual distribution of water on our planet when all this ice is melting—if I remember correctly, we're losing about 300 gigatons of ice per year on the different ice shelves that we have. DR. FLETCHER: That goes to over 600 gigatons when you include the melting glaciers. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: And that's a huge amount of frozen water that's been capped and stored for thousands of years, and now we're going to disburse it across the planet. And we will see what happens. And we're already seeing what's happening. And for us, we need to be aware. But I think globally, this is going to be very interesting. It was even more interesting was that it may even disrupt the way our planet spins and our pole placement. DR. FLETCHER: Yes, absolutely. The planet can, it will react to changes in mass, and the water is definitely capable of affecting that. Yes. MR. KANEALI`I-KLEINFELDER: Yeah, I found that very interesting. Scary, but interesting. But, yeah, thank you for your time. And I think just for the rest of the body that was a very interesting note that I came away with from a different meeting, and I'm glad Dr. Fletcher could clarify for us. That is very important. Thank you. DR. FLETCHER: Thank you. CHR. RICHARDS: Thank you, Matt. Ashley. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you, Dr. Fletcher. In equal measure you have made me feel very depressed but also optimistic. So thank you. DR. FLETCHER: Sorry for the first, and happy for the second. Page 16 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 MS. KIERKIEWICZ: So I represent a district that was covered partially by lava during last year's Kilauea eruption. And as part of long-term recovery strategy, the County is working with Tetra Tech to develop a multi -hazard risk mitigation plan that is inclusive of climate change. And we can expect the drafts by the end of the year or first quarter of next year. And that really excites me because from there I'd like to see how we can better align our budget and our capital improvement projects to build more resilient communities. I was wondering as a member of the Climate Change Commission, if you helped Mayor Caldwell craft his executive order that he issued in July of 2018 that provided a number of directives to the various city departments and agencies? DR. FLETCHER: The commission issued the white papers on which he based the directive. We did not help him write that. He works more with the Office of Climate Change, Sustainability and Resiliency. So if he didn't write those by himself, they would be the likely people to assist. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Okay, in your opinion, because they were based off of your briefs, your white papers, do you think they did enough? Are they doing enough? I mean you interface often with Josh Stanbro, so I'm just wondering how these directives have been embraced by the city. DR. FLETCHER: So the city is moving very quickly through a period of chaos. The directives say, do this, but don't explain how to do it. One of the things that we put together, we got external funding. Dr. Makena Coffman at UH (University of Hawaii) put together funding. And there were 12 of us who took a sea level rise learning trip, and they were the heads of the various city departments. And we traveled to Miami, Charleston, and Boston. And very generous government folks met with us and talked with us and answered our questions. All of that came out a desire to figure out what's the best way for us to move forward and how we're going to fund some of these very expensive construction projects. The city DPP, Department of Planning and Permitting is working on a new Chapter 23, which is their set -back law. And I'm hopeful that we will move to Chapter 25, which is their SMA, Special Management Area, law in the coastal zone. The Sand Island Waste Water Treatment Plant, as they replace elements, digesters, and other aspects of the plant, they're going to be raising each of those 18 feet, usually with fill. So they're going to bring in earth and raise these. That is actually going to place the plant at a higher elevation than some of the pipes feeding into it. So they're going to need force mains associated with that with inline pumps. Page 17 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 The Board of Water Supply has just come out with a report on climate change impact on all aspects of fresh water from the watershed to include sea level rise and the buried infrastructure under the roads; the water mains. And they're now looking for a demonstration project. One of the ideas of demonstration project would be an actual construction project where a road is raised. One of the three aspects of the logistics of raising the road is that you also have all this buried infrastructure under the roads. So, it's not just one department that's doing this, it's a whole bunch of departments. And so at last night's climate change commission, we had testimony on the one water concept, which is a conceptual approach to everything associated with water as a way of breaking down silos trying to perforate the walls of the different departments and realizing that it's going to take inter -agency teams and taskforces to deal with these problems. But as you can hear, we're still at the conceptual level, although we're putting a finer point on it. When we actually get down to committing tens of millions of dollars, you'll know that we have decided that we're, you know, it's really going to be pedal to the metal at that point. But as we've tried to adopt the new tropical code. It's not the new one, it's the 2015 Electrical Code. We're getting a lot of push back from the unions. There was a plastic bill that was written to be too broad, or it was too broad as written, and so it brought out a lot of enemies, so that was a mistake. It should have had some finer points to it to get off of single -use plastic. So like I said, I think we're in a period of chaos, confusion, and transition. But, you know, we're heading in the right direction. We know where we want to be. It's getting there that no one has ever done before, so that's where we are. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: And amidst all this chaos, you are so calm. That continues to impress me. I mean international calamity, and we're going to have a plan for that, don't worry about it. DR. FLETCHER: You know, I've broken into tears during my public talks. So I no longer put a photo of my two grandsons up there, because I finally figured out that's what was doing it. So I took that out of my presentation. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Can you talk a little bit about social equity for a minute? Because I often worry about our communities' most vulnerable populations and their ability to be able to respond as we navigate the new reality of living in a world that's, you know, climate changed. DR. FLETCHER: Yeah so, I mean the global social equity thing is that we cannot tell the developing nations to get off of fossil fuels. And they will literally give us the finger and say, "You did it, now you're telling us not to do it?" And Page 18 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 social equity in that regard is about living a longer life and a happier life; and a healthier life. Here in Hawaii we are surrounding by disequity. We have a heavily stratified community. We have an intensely rich strata, and an intensely underserved and low-income strata. And these communities that receive fewer government services also are locations where there is a higher population of native Hawaiians. And you know, we are living on land that was stolen from a kingdom. And we're seeing on this island play out, and the emotions related to that are playing out real-time. And it's not just on this island. We're trying to put wind turbines into Kahuku on the North Shore of Oahu, and that is just not happening. They tried to put a baseball field at Waimanalo Beach Park, and that was shut down by local communities. So, they're not having it anymore. And we have to be careful because if, you know, we decide to go the way of a carbon tax, what about all the folks who clean the rooms in Waikiki, but then have to drive back to Makaha and Waianae at the end of the day. They can't afford a Tesla. They're driving old clunkers that get, you know, poor fuel mileage because that's what they can afford, and they drive a long way. So we're surrounded by problems. And I worry that if we are hit by a hurricane, and we get into a situation. See it's happening again. We get into a situation where we are two weeks without electricity; without water and food. Who's going to rise up during that two-week period with resentment? Who's going to be angry? Well, you know, we're all struggling to survive. So I think disequity has been easy to ignore but it could explode. So every single resilient sustainability effort we make needs to have at is core restoring some aspect of our disequity in these islands. Because as I mentioned earlier, if we are going to be a Pu`uhonua. If we are going to be a place of refuge as a total community and come through the next 80 years with any hope of being an intact society, disequity is the number one challenge to resolve. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Thank you for that. I just have a couple more questions. You mentioned federal funding, and I thought you said additional funding for sea level rise studies. Would that drill into the details or expand upon the 2017 report that did the statewide vulnerability assessment? DR. FLETCHER: Yes. It will take several years. We are planning on doing a whole different approach using the three-dimensional numerical model, which is a community model that's available through the National Center for Atmospheric Research. But we hope to have more robust results that can be downloaded in the form of GIS (Geographic Information System) layers for planning purposes that show tropical cyclone strikes, hurricane strikes; all at different levels of higher sea Page 19 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 level; a more robust coastal erosion model. Everything better than what we have currently provided. So, yes, we're going to be redoing all that. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Excellent. Thank you. Okay, so my last question stems from your final slide, which was there's some personal actions we can take like go vegetarian. But there's the collective action, which is what I was really, really interested in. And so in your experience as a climate change commissioner and working with the Office of Resilience and Sustainability on Oahu, I'm just wondering what you think the top three things; actions our County can take right now. Because I've advocated from day one for this type of office and commission. And I'm hoping that the Administration hears this Council loud and clear that we want to start taking, not just steps, but leaps toward addressing this issue County -wide. And so beyond that, what are three other specific actions that we can be taking as Hawaii County? DR. FLETCHER: So let me comment on having an Office of Climate Change. It's amazing what those folks have done. They have increased their work force using VISTA's (Volunteers in Service to America), and I don't know, looks like they're up to a dozen, 18, 20 VISTA's. Well-educated, smart folks that come out here and help with a heavy lift. They are doing an enormous outreach. They spent over a year going around Oahu educating communities and then asking for their opinion on where are the places you would like us to emphasize efforts towards resilience and sustainability? And then they came out just a couple months ago with their resilience report. And you know, top of the list is housing to be affordable. So it's not all exactly tuned to climate change. It is actually what are we experiencing living in Hawaii. And at the same time, they're making heat maps. They have a canopy; increasing the canopy in Honolulu with 100,000 trees. They're just all over the place. And they aren't even a proper department. They are within the Mayor's Office. And so, we're worried that who's the next Mayor of Honolulu going to be, and is this office going to be kept in place? And I think we've only gone through one full year of budget decisions. The second year may be coming, but we had to fight to keep in the office in place last year because they're an easy target. Right? They're new; they're not an actual department, but they've been fantastic. And so the message here is that, yes by all means get yourselves an office which is dedicated to this problem, because it is a silo buster. It is a silo breaker. That office in Honolulu has monthly resilience team meetings where people from all the different departments come together in one room and they get training, and Page 20 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 they talk about projects. And you know, that's the integrated team approach that's needed for changing our community. Top three things. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: While you think on that, I do want to send a special shout out to three VISTA's that I know are working incredibly hard in Hawaii County. There's Cara Boucher and Audrey Robson who are pushing out phenomenal work product and helping with long-term recovery. And a recent VISTA is Jake Sikes, and he's working on a transportation plan. A greener transportation plan for Hawaii County. They are incredible. And like, can we keep you forever? Okay, two more recommendations. DR. FLETCHER: Yeah, these folks are amazing. You know, I want to say, join the lawsuit against the oil giants, but I'm not a lawyer, so I hesitate to put that across as an official recommendation. Representative Chris Lee who's from my district on Oahu during the off-season and even during the on -season, travels to provinces. Not nations, but provinces around the world, because we're the size of a province or a state. And he's building MOU's (memorandum of understanding) and agreements with, you know, government entities the size of Oahu, or size of Hawaii. And it's all below the radar, but he's a super hero. He's getting lots of very good work done by sort of, you know, not trying to get nations to agree to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions, but subtext. And there is the U.S. Climate Alliance, where 25 states and over 500 cities have said, we're still in Paris despite our Federal Government announcing that they're not. And the U.S. Climate Alliance constitutes the fourth largest GDP (Gross Domestic Product) in the world, so they're a very powerful entity. Joining with these people, being activists. So reaching out and being active on the global and national stage as well as making serious changes here at home that will build public safety, health, and a zero -carbon future. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: That's helpful. Thank you. I think we're going to rise to the challenge. I have a lot of hope. I know that my esteemed colleague, Ms. Villegas, was able to attend a conference at the United Nations (UN) earlier this year, where we got to talk a little bit about the Aloha Plus Challenge which all of our County signed onto in 2014. And that's the localized version of the UN's SDG (sustainable development goals). So I think that is a huge step that we can be taking as Hawaii County. Participating in the voluntary local review, which Kauai, and I think, Maui and Oahu are participating in. And that's one way, I think, to address climate change in steps because the problem is so overwhelming that sometimes we just need to put one foot in front of the other to prove that we're making a little bit of a difference to build that faith. Page 21 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 DR. FLETCHER: Yeah, as Council Member Chung said, you know, we can't give up even though all the trends are pointed in the wrong direction. You just can't give up because we love our children and our grandchildren more than we love ourselves. MS. KIERKIEWICZ: Yeah, I got a seven-year-old; I've got a two-year-old. I'm going to fight to make sure that they've got a fighting chance to live here. DR. FLETCHER: There's no failure point. If I may just very quickly, I like to tell people to use the word courage instead of hope, right? There's always hope. It's an instinct. Courage takes more action, and you guys are all courageous. I mean you ran for office. Give me a break. That takes enormous amounts of courage. And now that you're in office, you're fighting to achieve new goals. And you're fighting to change everything about our communities; how we live. So, it's about courage. People stepping up and not just saying, "Oh someone else has this." MS. KIERKIEWICZ: We will all be courageous next year during budget time. Thank you so much for your time. It was great to meet you. Chair I yield. DR. FLETCHER: Thanks for your comments. CHR. RICHARDS: Thank you. I have not, hang on a second. Maile, please. MS. DAVID: Mahalo, Chair. And Dr. Fletcher, no words can describe what you have exposed us today to. Number one, I, like the rest of my colleagues were frightened to death by your presentation and the reality of that all. So, I don't have any questions because I really don't feel I'm up to questioning a person of your caliber. So, what I will say though, is mahalo for the ending of your presentation, and that's number one. Because therein lies the courageousness of we as a body of legislatures, I believe we can contribute, and that is as our role of creating laws that assist in preventing further impacts to our island. And planning and that sort of thing that you already covered. And the second and final note I just wanted to tell you, thank you for bringing up the disequity subject. Because while we have—well we know that exists and it's at a point where it's frightening if we do have an event that would prevent us from surviving for two weeks. I reflect that global warming and everything that you talked about does have a direct effect on the underserved, especially people in our rural districts. Because of how you described, there's the same amount of people on Oahu that go through that. But, what I feel is very alarming right now is that, with respect to the native Hawaiians, global warming has already impacted the Page 22 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 fact that we are unable to, in case of an emergency, to live off the land; to feed ourselves from the ocean because of all the things that you have described. So, it's become an emergency where it really didn't matter when I was a kid in the 50's. I mean we hardly went to the store, I'm sorry. We got everything from the backyard or at the ocean, right? And to me, we have to go back to that. Growing our own food; becoming self-sufficient. And I think this island has a great opportunity to do that, because we're not—as much as we think we're really in a bad way, we're not really, because we have Ag and potential for farming. And we just have to take the right initiative and the right steps. So, as a Council Member, yes, I think we can do something to help your efforts. So, Mahalo very much for bringing that whole presentation and your presence today. I appreciate you. DR. FLETCHER: Thanks for those comments. I agree. Thank you. CHR. RICHARDS: Sue, you had comments? And I'll be back to you Rebecca for a second lap. MS. LEE LOY: Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Dr. Fletcher. First of all I have tc tell you, we have other people within the County who watch this, and I am getting text messages with, "Go Chip go," and "He's speaking truth." So you have some fans out there just within the County. DR. FLETCHER: That's awesome. Thanks, guys. MS. LEE LOY: And I absolutely love the vacillating between we're doomed to we have hope and courage. DR. FLETCHER: That's crazy, isn't it? MS. LEE LOY: It is, I'm actually loving it. I had, actually, it's more of a request, similar to that of Council Member Eoff. Really, asking for your guidance and expertise. And maybe even standing as a, you know, a stakeholder, as it relates to our Building Codes. Hawaii County is going through some changes with Tropical Code; with the IECC (International Energy Conservation Code). And then future amendments to the IBC (International Building Code), IRC (International Residential Code), and UPC (Uniform Plumbing Code) codes. And what I heard you mention earlier is, you know, through this climate commission. You know, how do we start building and designing for our future and our future homes while balancing the need of costs, right? Because we see so much disparity as it relates to housing costs, which leads to the equity issue. And then balancing our unique needs because we see here in Hawaii County, we have 11 tropical zones, whereas not so much on other islands. Page 23 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 And so, trying to find the right fit with our Building Code. My ask is if you could help us with that and the lessons that you're learning in other municipals, like City and County of Honolulu; or Kauai, or on Maui. That would be my first ask as we kind of move these code amendments in. And my second one really was related to the protection of our watersheds. And you know, the conversation about Vog drift and our invasive species. Because it is, for me, a passion that we start protecting our watersheds. We have a lot of monies going to the protection of our shorelines, but I see this imbalance happening. If we're not protecting our mauka properties, we're still going to see the affects down makai. And so my question is, you know, looking at what Ms. Kierkiewicz mentioned is what kind of actionable things can we do through this planning process and our resiliency perspective on looking at our watersheds up mauka? Because if we don't protect them, the health of our aquafers really begin to diminish real quickly. And some of the civil uprising that we see in other countries as it relates to water could be just exacerbated here. So if you don't mind, Dr. Fletcher? DR. FLETCHER: Yeah, double the annual budget for DLNR (Department of Land and Natural Resources), and if your County can get other counties. That's a very straight forward big step with regard to watersheds. And you're absolutely right, I mean when it boils down to it, we must have fresh clean water, and our watersheds provide that for us. And we're seeing changing rainfall patterns in ways that are very confusing. We have modeled what rainfall in the Hawaiian Islands looks like in the future, and there are models based on physics and there are models based on the statistics of observation of history. They give us two completely different futures. So we don't know what we're moving into in terms of future rainfall. We simply know that historically, we've seen a decrease in rain; we've seen an increase in droughts. Certainly on this side of the island is the worse place in the state. The Kona coast has had the most dramatic rise in drought, statewide, so we have to protect our watersheds. They are the faucet, right? They provide us with our fresh water. MS. LEE LOY: Thank you for that. You know, DLNR State or County, but we do have an Open Space fund that we skim off two percent right off the top. And we're using that money to purchase a lot of shoreline property, and I have been advocating for the longest time that we start looking at purchasing properties up mauka. Because I'm now thinking, well we spend millions of dollars to keep open spaces down makai, but based on sea level rises and climate change, some of the properties that we're purchasing will be under water within 30 years or 50 years. Page 24 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 And trying to springboard or leap ahead, you know, let's start maybe, jumping ahead and looking at our mauka properties. Again, Dr. Fletcher, I just enjoyed the back -and -forth between we're doomed to we're going to make it through. But really, I really do renew my ask if you could really stand in as a stakeholder as we move through some of, not only our Code amendments to our Building Codes, but even some advice to our General Plan update. DR. FLETCHER: Yeah, I'd love to. Thanks for the ask. MS. LEE LOY: Yeah, thank you. Chair, I yield. CHR. RICHARDS: Okay, thank you. Dr. Fletcher, I was just made aware, you're supposed to catch a flight at 2:00 o'clock. DR. FLETCHER: Oh, yeah, I forgot about that. Is that Wendy taking care of me? Two o'clock flight. Let me see here. There it is. CHR. RICHARDS: Apparently, someone here did not forget about that. So, what time do you need to get out of here? We try not to abuse our guests too badly. It is now 12:28. What time do you have to be out of here? Do you have a car to turn in or is someone driving you? DR. FLETCHER: No, I was given a ride. 2:10 is departure, so I should be there at 1:00-ish, so looks like I have a half -an -hour. CHR. RICHARDS: Okay. Alright. I just got a text that you're supposed to board at 1:45. DR. FLETCHER: Yeah, I think 1:00 still works, though. CHR. RICHARDS: Big sister is watching you. DR. FLETCHER: Council Member Eoff, are you driving me back? Okay. CHR. RICHARDS: Okay, so given that, Val. MS. POINDEXTER: Yeah, you had mentioned about doubling DLNR's budget. That made me nervous. Very nervous. DR. FLETCHER: Why? MS. POINDEXTER: Because to me right now, they're dysfunctional. I just got to be upfront and honest with that. They've been, you know, throughoutI know my coastline, we have a lot of watersheds. And they have been giving permits for water diversions, you know, so I'm real concerned about how DLNR is operating. Page 25 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 I mean, we look at what's happening in Waipi`o, yeah. And the water diversion there, and not realizing that feeds the people and the taro farmers their livelihood down there. DR. FLETCHER: So let me amend my recommendation. MS. POINDEXTER: Thank you. DR. FLETCHER: Double their budget with special emphasis on invasive species removal and then watchdog their behavior very closely. MS. POINDEXTER: Yeah, right now I'm not trusting them so much. And then when we talk about the mauka properties, you know, with what Council Member Lee Loy had stated, I mean years ago I was advocating for, you know, when Finance Factors was selling a lot of property up in the mountainside in Hamakua, but then they don't want to sell it to the County. And then it's just difficult, because a lot of those lands now are owned by either Bishop Museum, Kamehameha Schools especially, you know. So when we talk about protecting our watersheds, there's so much more that DLNR needs to get involved with and start to hold people's feet to the fire on being compliant when it comes to protecting our watersheds. DR. FLETCHER: I'm sure that true. I also work closely with DLNR in a lot of different regards, so I also appreciate them very much. MS. POINDEXTER: The one guy I love in there is Bob Masuda. He has my heart. And he's always there for us in Hamakua, so I have to give him kudo's. But, you know, he doesn't control everything and everybody, but I'm worried about that. So the watersheds, especially out in our area. DR. FLETCHER: And working with a large landowners; working with KS (Kamehameha Schools) and others. I think they're a critical player as well. MS. POINDEXTER: Yeah, and especially when we're talking about I'm trying to see what we can do with dairies and looking at what we're going to do with the `O`okala parcel and working with a group. But again, you know, protecting our water is the key, yeah? So, but thank you, and thank you for being here and thank you for your presentation, which is scary. I mean, you know, when I heard our Council Chair talk about how we're doomed. Oh, yeah, it's kind of like we are because I remember, I think it was in the `70's we used to watch this commercial of this guy, an Indian guy paddling in the canoe. Do you guys remember that? And he was warning us about what we're doing to this earth, mother earth. Page 26 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 DR. FLETCHER: Yeah, I forgot all about that. MS. POINDEXTER: Do you remember that commercial? I was real young and I remember seeingI was wondering, an Indian guy paddling in the canoe and he was warning us from, I think it was the last `60's or early `70's I think that commercial came on. And you know, we didn't pay attention. DR. FLETCHER: He like cried at the end. MS. POINDEXTER: Yes, he had tears running down his face. DR. FLETCHER: So the doomed thing. I think that our profit -based, extraction motivated, socioeconomic system is doomed. I don't think we as a species are doomed. MS. POINDEXTER: I want to thank Council Chair Chung for bringing that about because it kind of shocked everyone on this island. And I think maybe even the State people, whoever was watching, because it made us really think, you know about what's happening is real. You know, so yeah. And thank you. Thank you so much for being here. DR. FLETCHER: Thank you. CHR. RICHARDS: Yield? Okay, thank you. Alright, Council Members, be mindful of time. Rebecca's second and Council Chair also has a second. So go ahead, Rebecca. MS. VILLEGAS: Thanks for giving me another opportunity. As Council Woman Kierkiewicz said, I was provided the opportunity to go the United Nations (UN) for Climate Week and to represent the Big Island at a Climate Strong Island's dialogue. And that was a phenomenal experience. Also grateful for the hope and the resilience of so many different communities. I really appreciate you highlighting this place in Holland, or actually the nation of Holland and how they're creating their models out there. That thinking outside of our box and connecting. I also really appreciate you mentioning Chris Lee and his working with different provinces. Something that just continues to be this pulse that I find so heartening, and I find so courageous is the ability of native peoples to continue to be committed to their societies, their communities, their micro -economies, seeing that in New York. I mean we are still in a first world here being in Hawaii and we're dealing with, you know, some of these issues in some capacity. But there are communities Page 27 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 globally who are being devastated and annihilated. But being at the UN and having an opportunity to just have some conversations with people that are facing these challenges. And yet it's the wisdom that resides within our host cultures and the indigenous peoples that provides that opportunity to transition from the paradigm of socioeconomic profit -driven margins, and the benefit of a few and the cost of everyone else. So I just really—you made me cry during your presentation. I also have a grandson, but that's that human element that connects us. And that's that recognition and reconnection to nature and understanding our fundamental reliance upon the resilience of all of it in order to continue to thrive as a society and as a people. So thank you so much for acknowledging that and all of your vast wisdom and learning and experience. I'm so heartened personally and professionally to hear that come from your mouth and the recognition of, you know, our host culture and the host peoples, and all of the ways that are still available, you know, for us to make a difference. So thank you. DR. FLETCHER: Yeah, well said. There's a lot we can learn from each other. MR. CHUNG: And it's so interesting, you know, to hear the kinds of stuff you have in your brain. And you know, after you had given your presentation and I had made my initial comments, and you talked about the efforts to curb emissions, right? So you know, I'm fond of telling this story. I went to Korea in 2001, I think, and prior to that it had been in 1997. And then, I saw something that I hadn't seen during my first trip there. And it was this huge black cloud over Seoul. And so I asked the person who we were with, "What the hell is that?" And they said that cloud is from China, okay. And it's true, I found out it is from China. But now I'm thinking, that might not be a bad thing based on what you told me. It sure looks bad. DR. FLETCHER: The geoengineering idea is to push sulfate particles into the stratosphere. They'll stay up there for many, many months and have them act like little mirrors and reflex sunlight out before it comes down to the surface. MR. CHUNG: Interesting. I mean, you know, I'm sure not—you know, you got to pick your poison, right? DR. FLETCHER: Very dangerous though. Yeah, you could change the monsoon. You could change wind patterns, rainfall patterns, and that will upset the global balance of power. It's kind of dangerous. Page 28 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 MR. CHUNG: So anyway, I just wanted to make one last comment. You know, I find in the odd position of trying to defend the doomsday prophecy, which you know, I'm not trying to do that, right? But hey, I got kids. And you know, my wife and I talk about it all the time. It's like we have to prepare them for a different world already. I mean, it's just so unfortunate. So think about it, generation after generation. I mean I don't have grandkids, but I'm just thinking about my kids right now, and it's going to be vastly different. And I really do believe that it is due to overpopulation, I really do. I know it's not a nice thing to say, because people like to have kids and, you know, I have kids right? But all of these other things, you know, competition for resources, whether it's food, oil, all these other things. Only intuitively, I'm not a sociologist; I'm not a scientist, but seem like it's all driven by population. You know, I mentioned something the last time. The last go around about some president when I was in the third grade or fourth grade. Learning about a president who said we're poisoning our atmosphere. So I had to check, right, of course. It was Lyndon Johnson way back in 1965, right? Now here we are 2019, and that graph that you showed. You know, the amount we have to decrease our use of our to decrease the carbon dioxide emissions right? That's a pretty steep drop. I don't know if it's doable, quite frankly, I mean I really don't. And when you think about population, you also think about the disproportionate amount of people who are living at poverty levels. They could care less about future generations. They want to live now. And they are competing for resources too. It's just a really bleak thing. And again, you said it, we've got to hope; we've got to try. Oh, man, I just, you know, it starts at home. We try whatever we can do with ourselves, right? I'm hoping I'm wrong. I'll never know, because it's going to happen thousands of years down the line. DR. FLETCHER: In my mind, the way to begin to manage the global population boom is to give women total autonomy over their own bodies, right? It's not up to anybody except them. They need full authority to make individual choices about what they want in terms of child rearing. And we still have billions of people under male -dominated government authority that take control of that decision making. They take that away from women, and we see it in our own country. So that, I believe is the proper way to approach the overpopulation problem. MR. CHUNG: So that's a new wrinkle to this whole thing, and I don't even want to go there already. We can talk about that later. I mean, because every time you seem to be popping out new bits of information that are so interesting. DR. FLETCHER: We're just getting started too. I've got a lot more. Page 29 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 MR. CHUNG: Yeah, but thank you very much. And you know, just for those who have been criticizing me, well or not criticizing; ribbing me for saying, "Hey so what, we're going to die of heatwave or something?" No, we're heading for a global ice age, I think, you know, that's what I'm worried about, we're going to freeze to death. But not us, thousand years, hence. Okay, thank you. DR. FLETCHER: That wouldn't be good. CHR. RICHARDS: Thank you, Chair. So with that we are looking around. No further comments. So, Dr. Fletcher, that's me. I guess I bring it home. And so with that. It's kind of funny, because we're going to go alpha and omega here with Chair Chung with the doomsday acclamation, and we're going to go with me. I'm on the other end of the coin. I come from agriculture and I'm inherently optimistic. And in agriculture you're either optimistic or suicidal. And there's no either, or. And so I do agree with a lot of what you're stating, but I also believe that we do have a lot of opportunity to get things corrected. And I also agree with Chair Chung, I think population is the big driver of a lot of the stuff, and something like 150 people per minute is our population growth right now, which is staggering. And a lot of our issues relate back to that. I liked your comments about that developed countries need to take lead on this. And that makes all the sense. I'm not going to rehash a lot of what's been stated. I laughed at your comment about the arctic express going over Washington, D.C., and it's unfortunate because it's cold and not hot, and it doesn't fit the narrative. So that was not lost. I did enjoy that. You made a comment about drought, 10 percent for Hawaii. What are you sourcing your data on? Are you looking at USGS (United States Geological Survey) rainfall or how are you determining that? DR. FLETCHER: I don't recall the exact paper, but it's a published scientific article. It might be from Tom Giambelluca's research group. He's at UH (University of Hawai`i), Manoa. He has published the Rainfall Atlas. He works with the USGS folks. I can look it up real quick, actually. CHR. RICHARDS: No, we're not going to waste time, because I've got someI want to compare some data. A bunch of the ag statistics are not what I have found in my digging in it, so I'd look into that. Agriculture, and this is something—this is the Committee on Agriculture. And so I'm been looking back, and to understand agriculture better we have to know where we are. And nationally, we have to have a metric. So I looked at gross domestic product (GDP) nationally. Agriculture for the United States is about just under one percent, it's about .9 percent. And I wondered how that stacked up to Hawaii, and the interesting thing is we're about .8 percent. So actually on par with Page 30 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 national statistics. And globally we're on the same par. To me I find it paradoxical that agriculture is such a small portion of GDP yet without it we starve to death. And that's why I've been digging into this, and so I wanted to compare notes with you on some of this stuff And for me the worse drought was 2000 to 2010 that was unprecedented. What I also found was that it's very regional, and you made the comment about Kona here sustaining some severe drought. Kona mauka is actually some of the wettest times I can remember in my lifetime. So it's interesting. That's something going forward. Your comments on the temperature humidity index is something that I don't think here in Hawaii we've dealt with a lot, but I know in continental U.S. (United States) that's something big, especially in the livestock industry. And I use it because it's important to understand that balance. And I've never heard it referred to in the human side, but it's actually very, very valuable as we go forward. And so that's something I want to incorporate. DR. FLETCHER: There were 700 heatwaves studied and what were the conditions under which people died. And regarding the mass animal mortality, there are large populations that died very suddenly that we're aware. CHR. RICHARDS: The paradox is that people think if you sprinkle water on them, that's going to make it better, it actually makes it worse. Question concerning the watershed. I completely agree with the comments on the watershed and going forward that we do have to manage that. The paradox is some of our watersheds are heavily, I don't want to use the term infected, but impacted with non-native species. We have a lot of invasive species. And I participate with one of the watershed partnerships, and I don't seeI think you are on that one with, we're going to have to make changes in that to truly make a difference going forward. I really appreciate the comments on breaking the silos. That's something that isI wish I could say it was unique to government, but I tell you, government loves its silos. DR. FLETCHER: It's human nature, unfortunately. CHR. RICHARDS: Whatever it is, so we do have to definitely break down those. Your comments on biofuel, I am concerned about that because I think we end up with bad public policy when we are pushing too hard towards biofuels where we end up with tax credits that actually impact our environmental worse by producing too much biofuel. So I'm not supportive of that, as your perspective. Though I appreciate the concept going forward. DR. FLETCHER: It also impacts food availability. Page 31 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 CHR. RICHARDS: Yes, and that's the paradox on it. And so with that, like I said we've got to get you to an airport. Council Chair made a comment that he doesn't have grandkids and I don't have grandkids. We just have kids, so apparently we're the younger people on the dais here. DR. FLETCHER: Well you can tell that just by looking at you guys. CHR. RICHARDS: So, but to the point, it's not about this generation. It's actually about the next generation and generations to come. So we have to be mindful about planning that and going forward. DR. FLETCHER: That's how I feel about beaches. I think beaches belong to the children, because that's where they learn to swim, and that's where family memories are made. So that's how I feel about protecting beaches as well. CHR. RICHARDS: And to the point, that's again what we're talking about here. Planning for the future and inundation. I'm curious about some of your science and I'm not going to expand on it right now, because I will contact you later. We had some stuff, some notes, I think. But what you didn't comment on was the natural sources of greenhouse gases, and we've got 10 minutes. I'm going to take no more than two or three of those. Could you just comment on that real quick? Because like you said, greenhouse gases, if we don't have them, we're in trouble; if we do have too much, we're in trouble. And if didn't have our greenhouse effect, we'd be in trouble. I was thinking back to when Mount St. Helens blew, that affected our global weather for a period of time. Anytime we have those big deals. So with that, comment on natural sources of greenhouse gases. DR. FLETCHER: So there was a study done of the volcanic component of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, and it was something like less one percent of greenhouse gas contribution comes from volcanos. It is vastly overwhelmed by anthropogenic sources. CHR. RICHARDS: Well that was my point, it wasn't about gases from volcanos, I was talking about the particulate matter that we end upI was thinking about when you made the comment of putting sulfites up into the thing. We've already have had Mother Nature show us an experiment. We could probably look at that and not have to repeat it. So, but I was just talking about greenhouse gases from other sources. DR. FLETCHER: So one of the things with climate change—well, there is a natural carbon cycle if we just focus on carbon dioxide and methane. There's a natural carbon cycle, and you know, if unperturbed, it eventually works itself into an equilibrium. But then, the Milankovitch parameters; the orbital parameters are constantly forcing it into a new state of equilibrium. Page 32 AWEEMC-13 November 19, 2019 And now we have come in and we are massively forcing the natural carbon cycle. And as we perturb systems, we get a feedback effect. We get methane coming out of permafrost areas that are melting. We get, you know, systems like the boreal forest; the pine forest in the north converting from storage sites to sources. So we are eliciting natural reactions to changes we've caused that largely contribute additional gases as a feedback effect. Is that what you're getting at? CHR. RICHARDS: Yeah. And to that point, and again it's 12:51, I'm going to let you go because I'm fascinated. I agree with the comments about agriculture. To me that where we can actually make a big difference. And in the United States, we are. Our bigger problems are overseas where developing countries again, which is the paradox on that. So with that, Dr. Fletcher, I'm not going to I'll bend your ear another time when you don't have to catch a flight. DR. FLETCHER: I appreciate that. One of the things I want to check in further is whether industrial ag, sort of large ag in the United States. I've heard rumors that they're actually beginning to adopt regenerative agricultural practices themselves. CHR. RICHARDS: That's not accurate. They've adopted it a long time ago. DR. FLETCHER: Okay, there we go. Because it just makes economic sense. CHR. RICHARDS: Yeah, it does and that goes back decades back when I was in college. It's shifting now and when I was traveling I was shocked that some of the stuff I saw in Europe that is very old and very old thinking. But yeah, the continental U.S. for the most part has shifted a lot decades ago. Not everybody, but again DR. FLETCHER: Well that's good news. I also want to warn against oversimplifying global agricultural practices as a huge solution, just as global reforestation as a huge solution. There are lot of details here. It's going to take, I've used the term mosaic. It'll take a lot of solutions, and we shouldn't put all our eggs in one basket. CHR. RICHARDS: I don't disagree. You use the word mosaic. I use the word portfolio. It's going to take a little bit of everything. So with that, we're going to have to vote on this and let you go. We have a motion on the floor for the vote to close file, all signify by saying "aye." Page 33 AWEEMC-13 November 19,2019 Vote on Comm. 597: The motion to close file on Comm. 597 was carried by the (Filed): following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Chung, David, Eoff, Kierkiewicz, Poindexter, Villegas, and Chair Richards—7. Noes: None. Absent: Committee Members Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder and Lee Loy—2. Excused: None. ORDER OF The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, RESOLUTIONS: Order of Resolutions. (There were none.) BILLS FOR The Chair directed the Committee to proceed to the next order of business, Bills ORDINANCES: for Ordinances. (There were none.) CHR. RICHARDS: And now I would entertain a motion to adjourn. ADJOURN- There being no further business, at 12:53 p.m., Ms. David moved to adjourn the MENT: meeting. Seconded by Ms. Kierkiewicz and carried by the following voice vote: Ayes: Committee Members Chung, David, Eoff, Kierkiewicz, Poindexter, Villegas, and Chair Richards— 7. Noes: None. Absent: Committee Members Kaneali`i-Kleinfelder and Lee Loy—2. Excused: None. CHR. RICHARDS: We stand adjourned. Approved: ,, January 27, 2020 Mr. Herbert M. m" Richards, III, Chair (Date) Agriculture, Water, Energy and Environmental Mana ement Committee HR/dt Page 34