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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2020-01-14 Game Management Advisory Commission Minutes Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 Game Management Advisory Commission County of Hawaii Minutes Meeting Date: January 14, 2020 Time: 6:30 p.m. Place: Hawaii County Building – Council Chambers I. CALL TO ORDER/ROLL CALL: Meeting was called to order at 6:37 pm. Stanley Mendes, District 1 – here Kean Umeda, District 2 – present James O’Keefe - District 3 – absent Naniloa Pogline, District 4 - here Abraham Antonio, District 5 - here Grayson Hashida - District 6 - here District 7 - vacant Teresa Nakama, District 8 – aye George Donev, District 9 - excused Quorum established ALSO PRESENT: Malia Hall, Corporation Counsel Donna Urban-Higuchi, Executive Assistant to Mayor Kim GUESTS: Kanalu Sproat, Wildlife Biologist, DOFAW Mark R. Hanson, President Hawaiian Reforestation Program Brian Ley, Bird Hunter CALL TO ORDER/ROLL CALL DUH: Excuse me. Before you officially start the meeting Nani, can I address Malia? NP: Sure... DUH: OK. Great. Hi, Malia... So regarding the draft minutes – there is an error – a couple – but one most importantly under financial reports – page 2 – where it says... 1 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 MH: Yeah, when we get to that item you guys can – who’s that – Teresa over there – you can just state what the error is and we can correct it at that point. DUH: OK. Sounds good. NP: May the meeting begin. It’s 6:37p. First we gotta do roll call. Are you up for it Donna? DUH: Or you can do it. Either way. NP: OK. Well, I’ll do it then. Stanley Mendes District 1? SM: Here. NP: Kean Umeda, District 2? KU: Present. NP: James O’Keefe is absent. His term is actually up. I was hoping he would still come but... Nani – I’m here. Abraham Antonio? AA: Here. NP: Grayson Hashida? GH: Here. NP: Teresa Nakama? TN: Present. NP: Ah, George Donev is excused. He’s on Oahu. He’s gonna be at the Legislature opening tomorrow. All right so we’re gonna move on to approval of the minutes which I guess now, um, Donna do you want to deal with that? DUH: No, you have to review the... TN: Everybody has to review it – the only correction I’ve found – I’ve seen is on page 2 under FINANCIAL REPORT – it should say seconded by Abraham Antonio and on page 10 when Ryan Kohatsu was talking I think the word should be not “opine” but “chime”... APPROVAL OF THE MINUTES – January 14, 2020 NP: All right, thank you... 2 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 TN: You got the run on page 10? It sends I send in all kinds of stuff to them also you know if everyone were to chime in... Not opine... Cross that out and put the word chime – C-H-I-M-E. NP: Got it. Thank you Teresa. TN: OK. Otherwise I move for the minutes to be approved. NP: All right. Anybody else have any comments about the minutes? OK. So who would like to move to approve the minutes? TN: I just did Nani... And second? AA: Abraham, second... NP: All in favor say “aye”... \[The ayes have it\] FINANCIAL REPORT NP: All right. Financial Report... Any comments on the financial report? TN: I move to approve the financial report. NP: Thank you, Teresa. Anyone second? AA: Abraham second. NP: Thank you. All in favor say “aye”... \[The ayes have it\] NP: OK, so now we want to take statements from the public if there are any – on the agenda items. So if – first of all I want to thank everybody for coming tonight – thank you. All of you are here. Really appreciate it and so if anybody wants to make comment on the agenda items right now they can or if they want to any time through the whole meeting they can come up – anyone of you can come up and give testimony and make comment. And also, when you come up just state your name for the record... OK, so we’ll just move on to the presentation. It’s been bird game season so, um, we’re concentrating this meeting on that and we have DOFAW West Hawaii Wildlife Biologist Kanalu Sproat who is gonna give us a report on game bird harvest. PRESENTATION 3 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 DOFAW West Hawaii Wildlife Biologist, Kanalu Sproat, Game Bird Harvest KS: So my presentation is the game bird surveys that we started as our Admin kind of developed for us and we started last year – so it’s kind of the preliminary results of our surveys starting in the fall of 2018. You didn’t get it at all? ?: I didn’t get a phone call or... KS: I emailed it to you like lunch time. I can try again right now if that works – if not – I have some handouts... ?: I can try... TN: Kanalu is there a PowerPoint presentation? KS: Yeah, we’re working it out right now... TN: Thanks. NP: Apologies... KS: So just watch – hopefully he’s able to upload that presentation. It’s a little bit of background. Our administration – so Shaya was our Game Program Coordinator at the time so she’s – she left back in the fall – but she had developed a survey protocol for us to test using – comparing – so they were comparing between doing game bird surveys or transects without dogs so just walking and flushing birds as you walked and recording that information and then also using hunting dogs – so volunteer hunters with their dogs walking a transect and flushing birds and counting birds that way and so this preliminary results of that program so we started – actually the first trials did in March 2018 in Kapapala it’s Ian guys and then we did kind of a full blown between Kapapala and Mauna Kea in the fall of 2018 we did a follow-up in the spring after the season was finished so in fall before the bird season and then spring after bird season and then we did it again this last fall but this presentation today is just the results of the first fall 2018 and spring 2019 surveys. It was a comparison between doing surveys with the dog or without a dog. And so hopefully she can get the presentation, if not I have a few handouts I can give to you guys and we can just kinda talk story about the results a little bit. So we’ll give it a minute. TN: Kanalu, Teresa here in Kona. KS: Hi... TN: Where’s Kapapala? 4 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 KS: Down by Kau. It’s near or kinda close to the Kau Forest Reserve. TN: Is that above Kaawa? Or in Naalehu? Or in... KS: Near Pahala, yeah... TN: OK. Kau pretty big area, ah? NP: Oh Kanalu, are you getting a lot of phone calls from bird hunters going, “Where’s the birds?” KS: Not outside of the normal. Kinda normal. NP: Every year it’s like that with the bird hunting season? KS: Um, I have a – here I’ll hand this out to you guys, I’m sorry, I didn’t email this one and so I don’t know if I could put it up somewhere so they can see, but, I have the last from 1986 till now – just harvest rates. So, I’ll hand it out real quick and then we can talk story about it a little bit. DUH: Nora? NA: Yes? DUH: One of the commissioners is asking if we could have a copy of that by way of fax. NA: OK. DUH: Do you want my number? NA: Yeah. DUH: 808.938-5137. Thank you... NP: Could you tell me if you, um, in Kohen if you’ve done any game bird releases? KS: Not in Kaohe, no... NP: It was just Kapapala? KS: Yes. OK. I kinda reviewed for you guys what we – why we started this – I’m not gonna read all of the text, basically that right there is the review of the stuff I already talked about. We’re gonna compare between the two different 5 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 survey methods and when we did it. Um, just some pictures of some of the birds that are available for hunting in Kapapala and on Mauna Kea: quail, urkel, turkeys, a couple of different franklins, some Kalij. So our study sites are Mauna Kea Forest Reserve and the Kaohe Game Management Area. We combine them together into one unit pretty much for our surveys and then Kapapala – which the yellow dot on that is Mauna Kea and the green dot is Kapapala. Just a little bit about the transects that we walked. In Kapapala we had 73 transects – each transect is one kilometer – a little more than ½ a mile per transects and then on Mauna Kea we had 68 transects that we selected to do surveys and on Mauna Kea specifically we copied our pallia transects. ?: You going off of the pamphlet... KS: I’m going... Well, this... ?: Yeah? KS: ....is the same things as that. ?: You can give ‘em to us because it’s kinda... KS: Yeah, yeah, kinda hard... ?: ....we cannot see the... KS: Sorry. Thank you. So in Kapapala we designated 73 transects – 73 kilometers – on Mauna Kea it was 68 transects – 68 kilometers – and, again, we walked in the fall and in the spring. And then that table is just a list of the species available for us to potentially see and count. Those are the transects that we walked in Kapapala and then the next one are the transects that we walked on Mauna Kea. So our results – the first in the fall we walked all 73 transects in Kapapala with dogs and all 73 without dogs. And then on Mauna Kea we did 43 with dogs and 54 without dogs. Mauna Kea – we kinda learned quickly that it was a lot harder to walk than we thought it would be and so it took longer to do one transect than we anticipated and we were kinda hoping for maybe 25 to 30 minutes a transects and it took closer to an hour per t – sometimes more. TN: Excuse me Kanalu? KS: Yes? TN: Could you throw out some numbers – the number of birds you’ve seen in the area in your transects? KS: Yeah, I’m getting there... 6 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 TN: Cause we can barely read what’s being posted. KS: Oh, sorry. I’m getting there. We’ll get to the results in a minute. So – and then when we went back in the spring we decided not to do transects without dogs because of detection rate or our ability to flush birds was significantly higher with the dogs, um, just for example – just top of my head – on Mauna Kea we were seeing like 5x the number of birds with the dogs than without and so in order for our surveys to have any statistical significance or to be valid you need observations or a lot walking without observations – so we just decided just only doing them with dogs in the spring – so immediately or pretty quickly we recognized walking without dogs was not that effective to find the birds. So a number of detections by species – these numbers are combined between the two seasons so it’s a total between the fall and the spring. I guess for Teresa I’ll just read Kapapala Ranch – Black Franklins zero; California quail sixteen; chukar zero; urkels Franklin 217; Grey Franklin and Japanese Quail both zero; Kalij pheasant 38; mourning doves zero; pea fowl one; pueo one – not a game bird but our researcher likes pueo so he included it; Ring-Necked pheasant one; spotted dove two; wild turkey 7; zebra dove 7. And then on Mauna Kea: Black Franklin four; California quail 47; chukar four; urkel Franklin 320; grey franklin two; Japanese quail three; Kalij pheasant zero; mourning dove three; Pea fowl zeros; pueo one; ring-necked pheasant ten; spotted dove zero; wild turkey 24 and zebra dove zero. Those are our round numbers that we detected between the two seasons combined in both areas. So comparing the two methodologies like I already said – it was pretty apparent and immediately we recognized using dogs was the most effective way to find and flush birds and then to increase our observations, um, and, so, the first table is just our encounter which basically just says that – you got dogs you see more birds. Although in Kapapala there was not – you actually saw a little bit less, which is interesting – but they weren’t significantly different so there was basically kind of a no difference between dogs and no dogs in Kapapala. But on Mauna Kea there was. So because of the low number of observations for most of the species we were not able to estimate population size for any species except urkels – urkels had a good amount of observations so we were able to extrapolate a density estimate for urkels but not for any other species cause they’re just – the number of observations was low. Um... And so, you get – the next slide we’ll kind of get into route – like more numbers that I’m sure more people are interested in but one thing to note, um, so under table five – that last number on the right – that coefficient of variance – in order for that to kinda have some weight that number needs to be closer to .15 and so basically and so all those numbers are too high for us to have information that can be considered valid – if that makes sense. And so in order for us to get more information to be thinking of \[unclear\] to be more valid, I guess, we would have to do much more surveys, much more man hours. Something I didn’t talk about and I don’t have a slide for but, ah, real quick – Ian gave me his numbers – man hours for – so the amount of 7 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 time that it took us to do the surveys basically at Kapapala in the fall of 2018 we needed 128 staff hours and 48 hours of volunteers so in order for us to use the dogs we needed volunteer hunters and so they needed to give us their time to do the surveys. So for Kapapala it was 128 hours in the fall for staff, 48 hours for volunteers. In the spring it was 124 hours for staff, 48 hours for volunteers. For us in the fall, it was 300 hours of staff and 80 hours of volunteers and then I don’t have the spring numbers – I couldn’t find my records – so I’m sorry I don’t have the spring numbers. It was very similar to what it was in the fall and then this last year when we did the fall again for us we had a lot more hunter participation, which his good, but we still had – we had 12 different hunters show up – several of them came on multiple days and basically it was a full day for a hunter to come and volunteer with us – we were using about 8 per hunter. So it was a lot of time and it was a lot of time for our staff too. We had to bring staff in from other places to support us, you know, cause our wildlife section is so small and so saying that the numbers that we got weren’t as strong as we wanted and yet we would probably have to double or more – increase our manpower and volunteer time in order to get information that was statistically valid. It’s a big effort - that’s all I’m basically trying to say, um, but there was information that we got from this that I think that kind of peeks my interest and that I’m interested in finding out more and so we’ll go to the next slide... The slide after is the one that has the numbers you guys want but this one is just comparing with and without dogs, um, the density estimates between Kapapala Ranch and Mauna Kea. One thing that the research did – so we had contract – this was contracted out to the University of Hawaii a post-doc – one of the things that he did that I want clarification from him – for – was that he lumped the two methods together on the side there – that total is combined with dogs and without dogs – together – so I don’t – oh, no, that’s later, but I don’t understand why he combined them. To me we should do one or the other, um, unfortunately, I haven’t been able to sit down and talk to him about that yet, um, if you do notice, though, on Mauna Kea with dogs – that blue in the middle – is a higher density estimate compared to Kapapala Ranch and those air bars do not overlap – so there is a difference in population size – that’s – I mean – being on the ground you should already know that – but the numbers do support that – that there’s more birds on Mauna Kea than there are in Kapapala and then this is the one that everybody wants to know – so this is only for urkels, right, we didn’t do anything for anything else because we don’t have enough observations to do it so for erkles in the area that we surveyed, um, in Kapapala for the fall the estimate was just under 2,000 – so 1,932 – with those confidence intervals 1149 and 3249 – and then in the spring the estimate was 9,627. So about 2,000 in the fall and about 9,600 birds in the spring. And on Mauna Kea it was very similar - similar as in – fall was less, spring was more. Mauna Kea was about 6, 899 urkels in the survey area in the fall – and 14,356 in the survey area in the spring. And so... I’m interested – why are there more birds in the spring than there are in the fall? Again, for Kapapala the numbers are actually pretty good - that would suggest that’s that because the comparatives 8 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 intervals don’t overlap – would suggest that that’s probably a true number – that there are more birds in the spring than the fall. On Mauna Kea the comparatives intervals overlap – sorry, I’m not very good at explaining statistics but I do know that, that means that they’re not statistically different from each other enough – but they only overlap a little bit so it would suggest a trend that maybe that there are more birds in the spring than in the fall – so something I would be interested in is to find out if those numbers are true and if we would need to adjust any kind of season because of that or why? Why are there more birds in the spring than in the fall? In the spring we did our surveys in February so right after the game bird season was done, um, Kapapala did theirs’ in March so, some questions that I have as a result of this project. So this one, sorry, I jumped the gun a little bit. This is the one where the researcher combined all of the information into one graph which I had questions about and I’m not sure why he did it that way. Another thing that he did that I would need more time and I would like to, I guess, analyze and assess it – why he didn’t include all of the birds for just a general – these are the density of game birds – it doesn’t matter if it’s urkel, franklin, what – this is how many are on the mountain and then after that parse it out into urkels and, well urkels are the only ones so that was something that I wanted to see and I’m going to talk story with him and try to find out. So I don’t have answers for that yet, um, but these density estimate numbers are basically what we’re seeing in that table before about how many birds there and then the last slide – so those – I mean, I kinda talked about it a little bit but my conclusions are - species specific density estimates require larger sample sizes, which require significant increase in manpower so I would kind of assess whether that’s worth it or not, I mean, for us, like I said, for one season there was 300 hours of staff time and then 80 hours of volunteer time to get information that was close – it was almost good – but I needed just a little more surveys with hunting dogs did result in higher counter rates so it was more effective to find birds and to get a good density estimate with the dogs \[unclear\] quite a bit more and we talk about – I’m interested why the difference in fall and spring – why are there more birds in the spring than there are in the fall and so we need to check that out and then I would like to examine alternative statistical analysis, ah, maybe using camera traps at the water units, um, or also what I said about combining all of them to get a general game bird density on the mountain. Doesn’t matter if it’s urkel or pheasant or what – those are kinda my conclusions of the project. The project for me, um, it was fun to go out and count birds and to follow the dogs and watch the dogs do their job – that was cool – and to get a few hunters excited to help us out, um, but it was a big task for information that might not be – is not as good as we would like and for how much manpower it took to do – we got to reassess that in my opinion. NP: Well, how much do you depend on hunter harvest reports? 9 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 KS: So I – that’s what I handed out, right, the hunter harvest report. The hunter harvest report cannot give us a density estimate, um, it’s just how successful hunters are when they go out and hunt – they’re not gonna be – I think you can kind of follow a trend line of how many birds are out there but you can’t use that information to say, oh, that means there’s this many birds or not. NP: Any other questions? TN: Kanalu? NP: Oh, I’m sorry – go ahead Teresa. TN: Yeah, Kanalu, Teresa, um, do you know of any collaboration with any organization or school to raise hunting birds. KS: No... I don’t... TN: OK, um, Nani, I sent you information that Konawaena Ag Poultry Pen is almost finished they’re just needing a coat of paint and Konawanea Pen-Ag partnered up with NWTF Partners in raising ring-necked pheasants for release. NP: Yeah... TN: Could you share that information with Kanalu that I sent you? NP: I don’t have it with Teresa. I didn’t bring it but, um... TN: OK. Kanalu I’m not sure if I have your phone number but is it 3339-0983. KS: Yeah, I’ve given it out on this public for multiple times... TN: OK. I’m gonna send you that information... NP: Teresa? Do you have it with you tonight – do you have it with you? TN: I have it with me tonight and I’m gonna send it to Kanalu right now. NP: You want to talk on it a little bit more? TN: I don’t know too much about it – I know the organization has partnered up with the school and it’s good information for Kanalu. Hang on, I’m trying to type and talk at the same time. Wait – give me a few seconds. OK. This is coming from Jon Sabati that his organization – he’ll be having a banquet in February and he’s bringing up this Konawanea High School Ag Poultry Pen that they helped build and they say the chicks has been ordered for the spring 10 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 delivery and the NWTF Hunting Heritage Banquet which will happen on February 22 – Saturday – at Kona Imin Center in Holualoa is when I’m gonna find out more information about this project and I wanted to share that with you Kanalu. KS: I need to apologize. Actually, Jon did talk to me about it a little bit but I forgot. But anyway... TN: Oh, OK... KS: ....I don’t have a lot of information – like you – but he did mention it to me and he did invite me to that banquet and I plan on going. TN: OK. Great. I hope to see you there because it’s a great banquet, it’s for a good cause and for a project like this to get off the ground maybe we can expand on the projects with, you know, UH and other schools. NP: So Teresa can you repeat the day of that event and could you – do you see the cost... TN: Yeah, yeah, it’s fifty dollars and it’s February 22 on a Saturday at Kona Imin Center in Holualoa and doors open at 5:00 pm. NP: Thank you. TN: And it’s, yeah, it’s a fundraiser for them and this is how they help build the agriculture pen at Konawaena Ag Program and so I hope to see you commissioners there if you guys could make it over to Kona and Kanalu I hope to see you there too. KS: OK. TN: Thank you. NP: Thank you Teresa. Any other questions for Kanalu. AA: Maybe a couple of questions. Abraham... What was the reason you guys had a harder time walking through the area in Mauna Kea? KS: My leg’s short, man... AA: Yeah... Besides that... KS: No... I mean the grass is tall and it’s also a pretty rough place to walk just anyways, yeah... But, yeah, there’s some more rough terrain than Kapapala for sure. 11 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 AA: So a lot of the hunters that come in here and complain about the grass and it’s true... KS: I never said it wasn’t. AA: \[Laughs\] KS: Yes. It’s a rough walk up there... AA: Um, the other one would be like, um, a lot of man hours and the hunters are volunteering their time, but, for cover your guys’ costs isn’t there grants and stuff like that to help cover. KS: Yeah, we were, um, we were able to get the man hours and the funding to support the project. We did have funding for it – it came from the Pittman- Robertson federal grant, yes... AA: So maybe can find some other resources that maybe can cover more of that time, ah? KS: Yeah, and if the hunters so this – when we came back – the first time around we had about 7 hunters that assisted that for us – I don’t – I’m not sure about Kapapala, um, and most of those were just a onetime shot, um, and so we had to stretch our surveys out across like six or seven days so it took a long time, um, the second time around just because we’d been through it one time and we had a little experience we got 12 hunters that helped us and most of them multiple days, um, a couple of ‘em came for four days so it – I think if we continue to do it we’ll get more volunteers to assist. You know, it’s hard cause we got to do it on a work days, right, I did – the very first time we did it we did do one Saturday-Sunday where we went out to make it available – nobody was available Sunday but we got a couple guys come out on a Saturday, um, so there’s ways, I guess, for us to be a little more available when the hunters are available. But it’s still – it’s a lot of time, um, and it needs to be more time if we want to get information that can be valid, I guess, so, for me that’s – if we can use something like road surveys, which we’ve done in the past – those are going to be mostly, yeah, just trend analysis. You’re not gonna get a density estimate, you’re not gonna say, oh, there’s this many birds on the mountain. We just do it consistently across time – across multiple years – and you can kind of see if the population is going up and down – that’s all it’s for, um, that’s something I’m gonna do a little more research on and also using cameras. We’ve had some success using cameras to estimate sheep and goat densities at Puuwaawaa and so and at Puuanahulu and then hopefully we can do something like for the birds on Mauna Kea. We did get a couple of cameras stolen at Puuwaawaa and Puuanahulu but like one camera per 12 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 season – they’re expensive cameras – but I f you steal ‘em you cannot use ‘em so it’s kind of pointless if you steal ‘em – they’re locked. AA: So up on Mauna Kea is this – how much different units is that or is that just one hunting unit? KS: On Mauna Kea we walked through Hunting Unit A into Hunting Unit G. But the data was put together in just one data set. AA: That’s just 2 units? KS: Yeah. NP: So, um, generally, ah, bird hunters are complaining that the population of game birds are down. Is there any research into reasons why the game bird populations are down? KS: We haven’t done anything yet. I know I’ve been talking story with Brian over at PTA. I know he was doing a crop analysis to see if there’s something with their diet – but we haven’t – we’re just getting started on how many is there and answering questions about why we’re not there yet. NP: I mean that – they’re all birds, um, the palila are declining for no explainable reason and the game birds are declining for no explainable reason. It seems like research should go into why birds are declining in general. I don’t know... It just seems to me a parallel, right? KS: Well, there are different birds... NP: Of course... They’re really different... KS: ....that fill different ridges, that, yeah, they eat different things, they behave very differently, um, but, I mean, yeah. NP: Yeah, what, you know what – just a curious thing, you know, right? Cause it’s a parallel? KS: Yeah, it’s something I’m interested in – it took a lot of man hours to do this one. We’ll see how many man hours it takes to do that question. NP: Yeah, but I was just wondering if any funds would be dedicated to researching into the cause. KS: Yeah, I’ll put in a – we need to request it and we need to have a question that we want to answer and a way to answer that question and so it’s something 13 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 we need to develop that we’re not there yet but we can ask for the monies and, you know, apply for grants for it, we just haven’t done it yet. NP: Yeah – GMAC – we would really appreciate that. KS: OK. NP: Because people want to know – they want an explanation. KS: Me too... NP: Yeah, thank you. And thank you guys for all your hard work and all your hours and the volunteers that went into it – that’s really great – thank you so much. KS: It was good, no, I was grumbling when Admin put it on my plate but as we did it I really enjoyed it so... NP: Exercise, fresh air... Beautiful views, right? Get out of the office. KS: Go live, go live through what the hunters is complaining to me about. NP: Yeah, knowing what the hunters are doing trudging through the grass. Is there any other questions from the audience? SM: Stanley, District 1. I think it’s the habitat, yeah? That’s what it all boils down to, yeah? The grass is too high – so even if you bring pheasants that you raise ‘em from someplace else put ‘em there – some going stick around but most ‘em fly to get a better habitat. So... That’s my opinion. KS: Yeah, I mean, habitat is gonna be the driving force for sure.. NP: Yeah, the greatest suspicion among hunters, right? KS: ....and for our native birds too, um-hum... NP: The grazers aren’t there anymore and the grass is too high and the birds are declining. But you need scientists, right? GH: Grayson... NP: Go ahead... GH: That was gonna be along my next question is that – I understand and I applaud you folks for looking at and studying what’s happening locally, however, in addition to that I’m curious to know if there are other – in my field 14 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 of work we call it “national best practices” but other lessons or, you know, the grass is too high kind of things that we can learn from other places that have spent the money to study this area so that we don’t have to recreate the wheel to learn what we need to do to, um, improve this situation. KS: Yeah, I mean, I’ve been – I’ve read some papers and been to conferences where they do talk about those types of things – about keeping grass down and shrubs down, um, but we are unique in that our native resources – our drive the way that we manage, um, and then our number one priority is to protect the native forest and the native fauna within that forest and so sometimes those actions are not as beneficial to our forest, you know, so, just, yes, it exists – we are aware of ways that we can make habitat better for game birds, but a lot of that would cause maybe degradation of habitat for our native forest and our native animals. ?: Last one Kanalu – in Oahu they recently had one, um, pheasant release program – do you guys have something similar like one Kona side \[unclear\]? KS: No we don’t have anything like that. Oahu does it, I know Kauai does it, um, there’s a little pilot study on the Island and we are researching ways that we could possibly do it yet. ?: Cause that one too also get hunter volunteers too, ah? Cause one of my friends is on Oahu and he did that... KS: Yeah, Oahu and Kauai they use \[unclear\]. ?: ....he was in that program and so I seen ‘em. KS: Yes. ?: OK. NP: So one other question... So the game bird in Kaohe are all naturally occurring? KS: What’s your definition of “naturally occurring?” NP: It... KS: Yeah, I mean, they’re they got released, you know, fifty, sixty, seventy years ago or more – whatever it is... NP: Yeah, exactly, not recent... KS: And they are self-propagating, I guess... Or, yes, self-sustaining... 15 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 NP: Thank you. All right. But Kanalu’s gonna stick with us. We’re gonna ask him more questions after he sits down. We always do. KS: Yeah. Well, good... NP: Thank you so much, thank you Kanalu... Oh, I’m sorry. OK. So we have Mark Hanson... Mark R. Hanson the “Sandalwood Man,” President Hawaiian Reforestation Program will speak on “Do pigs eat eggs or fly over fences?” NP: Mark Hanson you want to come up and he’s been planting iliahi in Kaohe for how many years? MRH: Five years... NP: Five years, yup. MRH: We just finished our project there and m oved down to Puuwaawaa. NP: So, ah, we’re gonna get a little bit of his perspective... MRH: Aloha... NP: I’m sorry, I forgot to say you’re the President of the Hawaiian Reforestation Program. MRH: Yeah, a non-profit organization working with our state department and the Department of Hawaiian Homelands to do reforestation on Mauna Kea and re-introduce sandalwood and many other varieties of plants that grow on Mauna Kea that were removed from the constant browsing of the sheep. So I’ve been going to Mauna Kea... NP: Wait, wait. Could you repeat that once – the sheep removed the... MRH: Removed all the vegetation in between the mamane trees. NP: I thought it was just kind of took ‘em up as far as they could reach? MRH: No, after 50 years of eating and being browsed on they ate all of the seedlings as they were coming up. NP: Yeah... MRH: So we were left with an old growth forest of mamane trees. 16 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 NP: Yeah. MRH: But there wasn’t any regrowing of the young forest underneath it because of the constant browsing by the animals. NP: Got it. MRH: OK. So I’m here today to try to share with you guys that I believe that we have a shared problem here. So as I was planting on Mauna Kea – they had finished fencing Mauna Kea all up and they got the fencing on the Kaohe side of the mountainside between Parker Ranch and the Kaohe Game Management Area. And what was existing there was a fence – that was a barbed wire fence – not a barbed wire fence but just a horse fence because it used to be a horse ranch there. And that horse fence had fallen all apart and it was just wires flapping in the breeze. So the pigs were coming in and out and I would sit on Puu La’au Cinder Cone there next to the Puu La’au Cabin and watch the pigs come in at night as I was watching the sunset. So once the fence went up the pigs were trapped inside of the area and could no longer get back out. And as the years progressed, I noticed more and more grass underneath the trees being constantly dug up and checking the hunting checking stations constantly seeing how much was being take off the mountain I was not seeing people hunting pigs. So I think that we might have a problem, you know, I titled my speech, “Do pigs eat eggs or fly over fences?” So the research has been done long time ago back in the 70s on the effect of pigs on game birds. They do eat the eggs out of the nests and I’ve talked to many a pig farmer who raised pigs and raised chickens and yes, they definitely will eat eggs – especially the young ones – they would go into the chicken coop and eat my neighbors’ eggs so he stopped raising pigs. So I’m here to try to promote more pig hunting on the mountain because we’re not getting it. It’s not happening. Mitigation of the pigs necessary. There can be no eradication of pigs – that’s just an impossibility unless someone starts breaking out poison and poisoning ‘em on the mountain – that would be the only solution. But we’re not trying to stop that – we want more people to out hunting the problem I see is there’s only a one bag limit. So I introduced legislation with no bag limit. Another problem I’ve seen of why hunters don’t go hunt for pigs on Mauna Kea is because you know hunters hunt with dogs. So I talked it over with legislation and we’re also gonna introduce a regulation that allows pig hunters to go on Mauna Kea to hunt for the pigs up there. I’d like to know if you people have a problem with that. With supporting our pig hunting community to go up to the mountain and mitigate the pigs. Is that OK with this committee? NP: How many pig hunters hunt without their dogs? MRH: Not very many. Any pig hunters here? 17 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 ?: Yo, yo, yo... MRH: Hunt without dogs? ?: If I have to but I’d much rather take my dogs... MRH: Rather have a dog? But you hunt without ‘em, yeah? ?: \[Not speaking in mic\] MRH: Right on... That’s a tough guy back there. So I think we have a shared problem cause pigs do eat eggs and when I was going up the mountain when I first started a lot of times we’d come up, you know, right about twilight to go camp out at Puu La’au Cabin and it was always fun to see all the game birds sitting in the grove taking bird dust baths and in my experience, you guys, from when I first started to when I finished – when I’d go up the road there wasn’t as many birds up there anymore and I think you got the same problem that I dot that the pigs are eating your baby birds cause they’ll eat baby birds and eat the eggs and the bird if they can get a hold of it. Yeah. And they also were tearing up all the baby seedlings that we were planting with children on the mountain. Now we figured out a technique to keep planting the trees by putting ‘em right against the trees and in between rocks but it just turned into too much trouble so I’ve moved on to another spot to plant more sandalwood trees. We’ve established on Mauna Kea – 50,000 trees and plants have been planted there. They’re planted both on the Homeland side and on the Kaohe side and in the forest reserve along our run and all the way up our ten and every road has got sandalwood trees and if you just watch as you’re driving the mountain you’ll ‘em poking out. So we’ve succeeded in doing what we’re doing and we’re moving on but I can’t leave the pigs behind that dig up everything that we’ve done. What you might not realize is the pigs will start eating sandalwood saplings when they get about three to four inches across – diameter – they’ll peel the bark off at the base. Now why in the world are the pigs eating the bark off of the trees? Well, it turns out inside of sandalwood is a medicine that helps with the parasites inside of the pigs. So they’re not intentionally trying to do the damage – they’re just using it as their own medicine tree – but they continue to keep gurling it in the same spots – they also, as you guys know, pigs rub their tusks on trees, yeah, so – how am I doing on time with you guys? NP: You’re fine. MRH: OK. So that’s basically what I’m asking if you guys will support legislation introduced to allow pig hunting with dogs on the mountain and no limit on bagging? 18 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 SM: District 1 – Stanley. I think you should just leave the pigs alone. MRH: To do what? SM: Leave and let the hunters go up – what they doing now? MRH: But right now they’re not going. SM: Just maybe because they’re doing something else. MRH: Maybe they don’t want to go anymore because there aren’t any sheep there anymore. SM: Maybe. And whose fault is that? MRH: Mine... SM: Well, since you mentioned it, yeah. MRH: Yeah, I am the environmental activist that has been pushing for this for an awful long time. SM: I don’t think this body here should vote on eradicating anything. MRH: When did I say eradication? Mitigation... SM: That’s what you want. MRH: No, I want mitigation. SM: You want zero population on the mountain of all ungulates. That’s what you want. MRH: Yes, I do but I’m willing to compromise with you and leave the pigs and allow mitigation. NP: Excuse me... SM: We’ve been compromising all these years. MRH: OK. I guess it’s meaningless. NP: No, no, no. Please, please. I have some questions, sorry... MRH: Goodnight. Yeah, I’m glad you’re gonna keep it simple like you promised. 19 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 NP: You gotta expect this kind of thing... MRH: Oh, I totally expected it. NP: Yeah, and... MRH: Hey, if you love sheep – raise ‘em in your own backyard Bro. NP: Excuse me, that’s uncalled for. Thank you very much. So the question would be if pigs are particularly a problem for eating eggs of the game birds, then I guess what you’d have to do is find out how many pigs there were – pigs were always there. MRH: Well, pigs never lived on Mauna Kea – they passed through until the fence was put up. NP: Yeah, but they’ve been... MRH: They’ve been coming and going for hundreds of years. NP: Pigs exist in all bird hunting areas regardless, so, um, they’ve always been there but where the count of pigs is high, possibly maybe they’re higher in Kaohe right now than they ever have been before... MRH: Yeah, because no one’s hunting pigs. NP: But I mean – it’d be about statistics. Are they really the problem for game birds or is it – just, you know, they eat eggs once in a while, of course they do but is it the cause of their decline. MRH: Obviously you’re not gonna just take my word for it. NP: Well... MRH: So I can give you guys some facts... NP: Excuse me... MRH: We also have experts here that know about the forest... NP: Mark, we have someone from the audience... ?: How you become an expert? MRH: Well, usually you work for the national park and you’re a scientist... And you’re paid to do an intense study... 20 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 ?: So you went college and all that... MRH: It’s intense study... ?: But what hunters that are hunters all their life and been on the land all their life they don’t know nothing... MRH: Sure they do. ?: No... MRH: Hunters are my friend, Bro – you don’t get it. ?: I not your Bro. MRH: I love hunters and I understand... ?: OK. Hold on. MRH: It is very important... NP: Yeah, Jaerick would like to... ?: Aloha everybody – thank you for... NP: Say your full name for the record. JMG: I know there’s solutions to everything, yeah, um, why not hold hunting tournaments and to try eliminate – if you saying it’s too much but to do a study for five years, um, it’s not that accurate the numbers. I think there is solutions instead of right away going to legislation. Try holding hunting tournaments to eliminate if there’s too much pigs. We also have pipi issues up there on the Mauna, you know, we also have DHHL not wanting people to hunt but they’re able to gather, you know. All these months couldn’t go up Mauna Kea – that might have been a problem. But that’s not our fault. It’s not the pigs’ fault. But there is solutions instead of just jumping putting language in legislation to just up and eliminate it that fast. Maybe some of the birds that is on the ground is not actually from here. Most birds that is from here usually up in the trees, so, you know, before, I see what you do, I see you up on the Mauna, I see you doing your planting and stuff like that but, yeah, yeah, there is solutions but this right here is where it starts – at the GMAC. Um, before, crazy and stuff like that, you know, firing back and forth. Now is the time, we have hunters here – we have everybody here – let’s just try and settle this that way, um, hunting tournaments to eliminate pigs, you know. 21 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 MRH: Muzzle loaders – they were doing that for a while. ?: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I know \[unclear\] pig hunters in here they would react the same as Mr. Mendes, you know, but we – just a few of us – how about we hold another meeting with some pig hunters that we can gather and have their feedback... NP: Sure... ?: ....here at this GMAC hearing. NP: Yeah. ?: Yeah? ?: Excellent. ?: Thank you for your time. NP: Thank you, Jaerick. So, ah, Kanalu and Ian. Have you noticed the pig population in Kaohe – that out of control or unusually high? Are you setting pig traps in that area? ?: We don’t trap in Kaohe itself. We do trap in the mitigation area adjacent to it so they are actively removing pigs in that mitigation area? NP: Under the core critical habitat. ?: So it’s that mitigation that was kinda to replace the critical habitat that was lost because... MRH: The reforestation... ?: That was lost because of the Daniel K. Inouye Highway... We got to mitigate for that and replace, you know, that lost critical habitat. NP: Right... ?: So that old Lau lease, um, and so we are actively removing pigs from that area, um, but within Kaohe Game Management Area we are not eradicating. We don’t trap or anything like that and so – I’ve only been here five years – have I seen an increase in pigs in that area? No. From discussions with a few hunters – most hunters are not very interested in hunting pigs on Mauna Kea cause those pigs aren’t as nice, I guess, as pigs... NP: Not as much fat... 22 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 ?: ....in other areas, um, which is probably more of a reason why there’s not a lot of pig hunting up there than anything else. There’s not as many pigs and those pigs aren’t as nice as in other areas that they could go and then also, I mean, he is right that there’s a limitation – you can’t have dogs on the mountain for pig hunting – so that would limit people as well but I would think it’s more that there’s not many pigs and those pigs that are there are not that nice, I mean, you gonna have some but in general. That’s what I think. NP: Um... Thank you. MRH: They only have worms and grass to eat. Pigs are an omnivore and they love our avocados and our macadamia nuts and the fruits in the forest and, you know, they have to eat worms all the time and grasses and you can see it in their dung, yeah. KU: This is Kean here, um, Mark in your earlier statement you said the sheep were over grazing. Would you say if there was a management in place – game management – back 50 years, 40 years, 30, 20 years – and they control the sheep with hunters, OK, would you say that would help the forestation or what you’re trying to do? Or you just want to get rid of all the sheep? MRH: They’re not compatible with our native forest you guys. Ungulates since the beginning of research – see I’m not a research scientist – I listen to the research scientists. I ask questions of the research scientists... KU: So, so your... MRH: ....I go to the meetings, you know, I go to their conferences, I try to pick their brains to figure out what kind of solutions can we come up for the problems that we have. KU: OK. So my question to you is – the sheep that exist there right now should all be eliminated – is that your theory. MRH: Any time you put up a fence you have to take your ungulates out. Now the sheep on Mauna Loa and all the way across to Puuwaawaa and all across the PTA area – let ‘em be. But we have to control the population you guys – we can’t let it get up to be 60,000/80,000 sheep running back and forth from Mauna Loa to Mauna Kea. Now since this TMT stuff started I wasn’t able to get up and check on the DHHL lands – so I did a lot of research on Mauna Loa and guess what? The forest is regrowing from the lack of there being so many sheep browsing on it. I’m watching the Mauna Loa forest come back. Vegetation sprouting up everywhere. So we have to stay on top of the sheep, 23 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 you guys, and we got to keep track of the goats especially, you know, whoa, they eat everything. NP: Excuse me. The naio is dying from a thrip? MRH: The naio is dying from a bug called a thrip, yeah, and it’s taken out most of the naios on the northern slope of Mauna Kea, which is a very serious fire hazard. The fire load gentlemen is not the grasses which burn real fast it is the hard wood forest that has died on the mountain – the naio trees – when they fall on the ground and if those should start on fire – they heat up very hot and they kill the indigenous microbes in the ground – kill the life force in the ground and nothing will grow there for years. So it’s very important we keep on top of our fire breaks... NP: Well, so you’ve got this grass fire fuel and then you’ve got this fire fuel of dead naio... MRH: Dead trees, yes. NP: ....it’s the perfect staging of a barbecue... MRH: Yes. And that’s why it’s important to support DOFAW here to get more, more fire breaks you guys. NP: What, um... MRH: More fire breaks, yeah? More, wider, farther. You know, I did - he warned me... J: So the fire breaks... MRH: Steve Bergdorf warned me. Don’t \[unclear\] - we’re gonna make the firebreaks bigger and I lost a few sandalwood trees to the big giant excavator that they mowed everything down with, you know, it’s collateral damage it happens, you know, better that than an giant fire on the mountain. NP: OK. Here’s what our stand is. We do have a strong stand about the sheep and the native forests. We support native endangered species, we love them also. We value them. We acknowledge that at one time the sheep population was out of control – way too many – it wasn’t managed and that they did do some devastation but we believe that there can be a balance and that there can be a beneficial amount of sheep on the land that would manage the grass fire fuels and benefit the endangered species. We believe a balance can be achieved with proper game management – managing a certain count and not letting them get too overpopulated but just at a rate where they are actually helpful – so that’s what we believe. 24 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 MRH: So here’s the new management practice that I’m working the DHHL – to leave the animals on the land. We call it the the Take Kipuka Method. Meaning we take a small enclosure 15-20 feet and we fence that and plant in it. At the same time the animals are allowed to browse and keep the grasses back – because over on their side we have kikuyu grass and kikuyu grass is a very bad fire hazard if it is allowed to grow. It overlaps each other and overlaps and then the stuff underneath dies and if a fire starts it really gets started and roaring. So with working with the DHHL we’re gonna do small little enclosures – plant in that – that’s the way the natural forest grows on the lava flow. So then we can still have both worlds. ?: Yeah. MRH: The animals, the cows, the sheep and the pigs. NP: We also... SM: So, so, Stanley, you guys going take care of planting on Hawaiian Homes Lands.... MRH: Yes. SM: And the animals there... MRH: Will be staying... SM: Will we be allowed to hunt on Hawaiian Homes Land? No? MRH: No. SM: No? So yeah we going get gather then. MRH: Well, you know, what I’m trying to explain to you is I’m showing an example of how, how we can do that on their side – maybe we can get DOFAW to do it on their side too... SM: Why not do ‘em on Mauna Kea? MRH: ....and on open range lands. SM: Why not do ‘em on Mauna Kea? MRH: Why not do ‘em because they already fenced the mountain. The money was spent. Federal funding was taken. 25 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 SM: You can still put back sheep there and control ‘em. MRH: You going to pay for putting the fence on around all the sandalwood trees like I did? SM: No. I not going pay for nothing. NP: The big ones are fine. Old growth are fine. Old growth sandalwood... MRH: I’m sorry but sheep, goats, pigs aren’t in our forest. SM: Where you from? Where you from? MRH: I was born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin but I’ve been living here for forty years. Twenty years on Maui, twenty years here. Since 1992 I’ve been propagating sandalwoods and living in the forest – not studying. SM: You should have, you should have planted \[unclear\] in Wisconsin. MRH: I did. NP: Stanley, let’s not have an argument. ?: Yeah... NP: We don’t want to degrade anyone personally... MRH: I already get you – I love you brother, it’s OK. NP: So, um, we’re more interested in a balance. MRH: Yes. NP: And we’re hoping that you would not – you would refrain from saying that goats and sheep and pigs do not belong. They do belong. We believe they do belong. They’ve been here for a long time and they can be a part... MRH: Our forest has been here longer... NP: But they can be a beneficial part... MRH: If they’re fenced out and fenced in. NP: Yeah. MRH: Yeah. If we create areas for the sheep to be... 26 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 NP: Mm... MRH: Yeah. NP: No – sheep need to migrate. Pigs need to migrate. They do best when they can migrate. They do less damage when they can migrate. MRH: There you go. Pigs need to migrate. NP: Yes, you’re right. MRH: So one of our plans is to introduce having one way fences on Mauna Kea that allow the pigs back out. NP: There should be corridors, there shouldn’t be fences east to west – there should be corridors for migration. And that’s part of the problem. The fencing is causing the game animals to do more damage cause they’re trapped. MRH: Right. But no time in the history of the State of Hawaii has there ever been a fence erected and the undulant left in. How did that happen? NP: Money. MRH: How are the pigs kept in on Mauna Kea? Why were they kept in on Mauna Kea? Why were they excluded in the court case that says pigs have no effect on the critically endangered habitat? NP: Excuse me. We’ve got a comment from the public. MRH: Yes. NP: Please come on up Pali Kapu. PKD: I just want to ask him here. Are you a vegetarian? MRH: No, I love pigs. Between \[unclear\] and cheese. PKD: \[Not speaking in mic\] MRH: I love sheep too and I love eating cows. I ain’t no vegetarian bro. I love animals. NP: All right. PKD: \[not speaking in mic\] 27 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 NP: If you have comments you’ve got to come up you guys. PKD: \[not speaking in mic\] NP: State your name, we’ve got to have it for the record. JMG: Jaerick Medeiros-Garcia again. So maybe if you’re working with the DHHL... MRH: Yeah. JMG: Maybe we can convince them to have hunters actually go in and hunt. MRH: No, it would be nice if they allowed the general public up there. I don’t understand that one you guys. I don’t get it. They barely let the beneficiaries go and hunt. JMG: Well, the thing is yeah, they claim there’s no hunting but we still have rights to gather, you know, on DHHL or any private land we can gather. The thing is right now they’ve get cowboys on the Mauna rustling up the cattle. MRH: Yeah... JMG: That’s hunting. Because when you put an animal in a stressful state they’re being hunted when you sneak up on them and just kill ‘em – that’s gathering. That’s what I think, you know, when the animal is in a stressful state where the blood is pumping - the cowboys chasing ‘em – they’re being hunted. So I don’t know why they won’t allow people to go up there to gather, whether – since it’s a fenced off area – use the dogs – but then they too worried about what the pipi, eh? Why? Because they get 80% of the pipi while the Hawaiians get 20% of the meat – 20% of the meat from the pipi – six months they never get – nobody got to go up around the kupuna tent – DHHL their agenda is they have meat – they have a meat company that haven’t had meat for six months – it’s a multi-million dollar business that they have along with Aila – along with Governor Ige. Maui nui, Waimea Nui. All these guys, yeah, so maybe they can stop taking up \[unclear\] for once and let the people go on the lands of DHHL. So if you work with DHHL maybe we can bring them into one of these meetings so that we can ask them politely to allow people to go gather. I don’t know. If you can reach out – I know Camara – he no like talk to us because... MRH: I think it would be wonderful if they would introduce hunting permit process for... NP: thank you Jaerick... 28 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 MRH: ....the DHHL lands but you guys got to understand those people are so confused right now in what they’re gonna do. NP: Um-hum. Well, we’re pressed for time but thank you Mark. Thank you so much for coming and being willing to share with us. We really appreciate it. MRH: And the last I have for you is if you guys would like try out roasted sandalwood nuts – of the food of our forests. NP: Oh, you can put ‘em, oh, on the table we’ll do that on the way out. Thank you. All right, so, um, our next speaker is an experienced active local bird hunter – Brian Ley... Experienced and active local bird hunter, Brian Ley, will speak for the bird hunting community on observations and conclusions of the 2019/2020 bird hunting season NP: All right, so, um, our next speaker is an experienced, active, local bird hunter, Brian Ley. He’s gonna speak for the bird hunting community and on observations and conclusions of the 2019/2020 bird hunting season. BL: OK. Brian Ley. Born on Hawaii – just to keep the record straight on that. Dismal comes to the devastating, horrible – it’s been a horrible year, you know, and scientifically speaking I’ve been hunting with the same dog for 7 years, hunting the same areas and the bird populations are just dwindling and disappearing from areas and, you know, places that historically have held birds, you know, that was guaranteed I could get a limit by 8:30 if I hunted by myself. Usually, I’m hunting with four to five guys cause the hunting’s so good and the dog is so good that I could take four or five guys out and we can have a good day and everyone come home with two birds thru three birds limit and this year I’ve had zero. Never have I ever had zero birds. Multiple times. Christmas Day I hunted all day – took two shots – that was it, you know, hunting areas that were historically good spots, you know, and a lot of it’s the habitat, you know, nobody – everyone talks invasive but nobody complains about all the vegetation is invasive. It’s not native to Hawaii. So why not use invasives to take care of invasives. You know, if you look at the sheep and the goats – they’re generations – I mean a person generation is 20 years – these goats and animals is one year and you figure that how many generations these animals are here – they’re not invasive – they’re endemic. They’ve been here, they’re adapted, they’ve become part of the Island, they’ve become part of the ecosystem. Everything has a balance, you know, everyone talks about saving the palila birds but we have a fire hazard that is uncontrollable. Everyone will agree with that but nobody wants to do anything about it, you know, we’ve got money to put concrete slabs in and put in nice little port-a-potty toilets at the hunter check-in station, we can make little – 29 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 cute little trails – put some signs up but we have no money to do – keep the invasive grasses under control. The mamane can’t reproduce under these conditions – I can take, you know, I’d be more than willing to take people up and show ‘em, you know, baby mamane. It’s not in the big grass – it’s up on the sides where there’s hardly any vegetation, next to the sheep trail, next to the sheep droppings, little mamanes not being nibbled on, you know, if animals are doing something it’s cause out of desperation, drought, water, you know, lack of food, you know, take the fences off around the waters – let these animals get some water – manage the herds – they won’t touch that stuff. It’s just like the pigs and people. You know, people aren’t going to eat crap unless they’re starving to death and God knows they’re boiling shoe leather and eating it. And it’s the same with these animals, you know, we’ve got a situation, you know, the fire hazards – fire breaks are not gonna do any good – we’ve got tremendous winds, California is a classic example of why we need to do something now. If we had fire breaks and everything – 40mph you can have a 50 foot fire break and it’s not gonna do anything. And if you get fire break – you’re losing 100% of natural forest and lands for fire break that may work – that has to be moved and everything else and the Department knows about it cause they’re got massive road \[unclear\] they mow everything around mitigation area. I don’t even hunt the mitigation area anymore cause there’s no birds. I have seen a bird – when I first hunted there we would go in there and get birds. I go don’t – I go in once a year just to make a look to make sure that there are no birds and there are no pigs. And I don’t’ hunt pigs on Mauna Kea cause it’s the only animal up there that’s knocking the grass down – making trails for the game birds to travel – rugging up the ground so the birds actually have places. We can have everything – there’s no reason we can’t have game birds, sheep, pigs, goats, sandalwood – and the reason there’s no sandalwood is people – it’s not the pigs – the pigs came on the first canoe – it was people that wiped out the sandalwood – the people that wiped out the koas – the people that wiped out the trees – it’s not invasive animals. NP: Good point, yeah... BL: You know, we can have everything and as far as the birds go, you know, it’s a bad year and a lot of it’s the vegetation. I know so many people that are just avid hunters that aren’t even hunting on Mauna Kea cause the grass is too thick – they’re scared – you know a lot of these people are older people they can’t walk in that grass. They’re falling, they’re breaking. I have one friend that has got cracked ribs cause he fell on Mauna Kea. I’ve got another friend who just hunts Puuwaawaa. He gets a few blacks cause he can’t walk that stuff. You know it’s just, you know this is my impersonation of the thing that’s it’s just – it’s been a bad year, but I’m still going and we’ll go tomorrow and we’re going to put in some serious miles looking for birds cause that’s what I enjoy doing and I’ve got the dog and it’s just, you know, it’s sad cause at the check in station people used to get that one hill below that first stand of trees 30 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 down – people used to hunt there – nobody hunts there anymore. You didn’t even need dogs in the old days. People would just walk – five guys in a row – walk down there and get a limit of birds there was that many birds, you know, I’ve got 7 years of video evidence and pictures – if anyone’s willing to look at the changes in the vegetation and everything, so, you know, that’s just my personal opinion on what everything’s going on – and like I said, you know, we need to do something about the fire hazard, you know, the dead trees, the grasses, you know – something needs to take care of it – the state can’t mow it all, can’t spray enough roundup – not to create a hazard – cause we get one good fire that’s gonna be it for the palila bird. We can talk story all day long but unless we do something, you know, put some sheep back in there. It’s not gonna cost anything – you just say we’re not gonna do eradications and I’ll be out there and 50 other people will be out there cutting holes in that fence once we get an OK and we won’t have to do anything. Money solved. We’re saving a fortune, you know, and it’s made simple – is everybody’s got an agenda that’s gonna taken care of and it’s the people that actually hunt that fill their freezers that pay the price ‘cause everyone’s paying politics and playing games and want to get their special projects going, you know, let’s look at the people, you know, the people that actually enjoy the Mauna Kea, they use it, they go up there, hunt, spend time, take their kids up there – they can’t go up there anymore cause it’s a nightmare. So anyways, I’ve ranted and spewed enough, I appreciate everybody listening and if anyone has any comments to grill me on that I’d greatly appreciate it. TN: This is Teresa in Kona. BL: Hey, Teresa... TN: Would you mind sharing your pictures and videos with us? BL: I don’t have any pictures or videos. I think Nani took some pictures and had ‘em posted earlier. TN: OK. So could you take one your next hunting trip – whenever you go take some pictures and videos and share it with us. BL: Can you pull that picture up? NP: Actually, I have some pictures I’m gonna share and that’s the very next thing. Thank you, Teresa. TN: OK, so your small mamane trees or sandalwoods that are growing naturally that you come across of – could you take pictures of those also – since you’re up there? BL: Sure. I’d be more than happy to. 31 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 TN: Is that possible? BL: Yeah. TN: Because the more we put an album together and actually see what’s there the better picture we have in helping everybody bring the natural habitat for all these species to exist cause before conservation came here everything existed – so we didn’t have as much fires except in the dryland forest areas – not so much on the Mauna. So, you know, I support you and let’s see where we go from there with enough evidence that we can gather what you see up there – that would be great. Thank you. BL: One other thing I forgot to mention that Brian Leo is working the game management on PTO even though he’s only been here a couple years – he already knows that there’s something wrong with the game birds and he’s actually taking liver samples and crop samples this year off of PTA and like I said, you know, why is the palila population going down? We have more mamane than we’ve ever had. The sheep are gone, I mean, there’s no correlation. Why? You know it’s what I’m looking at it’s the same thing that happened with the RODs – same thing – I live in Leilani – I walk my dogs everyday – I notice something – talk to some neighbors – we took some samples to the Department of Forestry and the University and they said there is nothing wrong - you guys don’t know what you’re talking about and two years later ROD left Leilani and devastated the Island. That’s what I’m afraid is gonna happen here. Everyone’s saying we’ve got issues, we’ve got issues – what’s happening to the birds? But everyone says there’s nothing wrong. But it’s gonna be another Leilani in the ohia trees again – it’s just gonna wait too long before we look – surveys – you know, I could say how come we don’t have any scientific evidence on game birds – are they seed destroyers – are they seed spreaders – you know, do the migrate – what’s the thing – and, oh, it’s like \[unclear\] the fence that they have along Parker – why do we have a fence that keeps the birds out? We’ve just keeping sheep out – we don’t need a fence with tiny little things where the birds can’t migrate back. The birds aren’t an issue – why do we have a six foot tall fence that birds can’t walk through along the fence line. You know, that’s not an issue – I don’t know why we had that and the fence is upside down and I don’t know if it’s incompetence or if it was purposely put upside down with the small wires were to the base of the ground. Anyways, so... SM: Stanley from District 1. I took Nani last year I think was we went up Puuwaawaa and you know where the bird sanctuary is in Puuwaawaa and where it’s not. And you can see the difference. The life how it’s living out there without the fence and in the fenced area is just overgrown you have fire weed in there and all the stuff that the animals cannot eat. So that –right there you can see the difference, you know? And it’s what they doing to Mauna Kea. 32 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 Any place that you go and you see once fence – when you go in that fenced area it’s overgrown and that’s what they doing. And like you said the noxious stuff comes back – not the good stuff – the noxious stuff comes back. BL: \[Unclear\] Kona they got that green vine – I don’t know if anyone’s driving but you notice green vine, green vine – sheep, goat, hunting area no vine. And it’s literally 100% taking over the flippin Island. I mean you drive down Saddle Road and it’s growing over the native trees, the native bushes, I mean, everything – it’s just carpeted and the only thing I’ve seen that eat that stuff is goats and sheep on Keamoku, you know, can keep it down, but, you know, what are we doing about this – we’ve got invasive plants that are literally taking over 100% of the Island – we’re squallering about some invasive sheep that nibbles on a few 10% of a mamane bush or something like that when we’ve got invasive weeds that are destroying the Island. I can’t understand it. Anyways, I’ve ranted and raved enough totally off the bird subject. NP: Well, I was curious about something, um, Kanalu and Ian, um, can you work with Brian Leo at PTA with his findings or do you ever work together with them? KS: Yeah, we’re working with them on some stuff. NP: Oh, good, so you could use whatever research they come up with? KS: Yeah, for sure... NP: Great. That’d be great. Could you report on that if you get... I don’t know if Brian Ley – I’m sorry, Bill... KS: Well, it’s his project so I’ll let him report on it but we are trying to assist him the best that we can... NP: I think he can’t come talk to us... ?: He’s not allowed to talk... KS: Mm... NP: Yeah... So I was wondering if you could relay... KS: Yeah, I’ll talk story with him and see about what... NP: Thank you. If you could relay to us what he – cause, yeah, he won’t come I don’t think, yeah. KS: OK. Is my boss gonna tell me I can’t come? Nah. 33 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 NP: Jaerick? JMG: Jaerick Medeiros again, um, thank you, that was awesome. That was pretty, real accurate. But I wanted to just share something that I experienced on being up at the Mauna the past six month. I’ve been going up there probably three to four nights a week and, um, since they opened the road I noticed at about 11:30 at night – I was a Humu’ula – parked up there talking stories with friends and, um, you asking maybe the reason why the birds are not around is because the military is killing ‘em. Being with the bombing that we’ve been experiencing up there – it was the craziest thing, man, the smells, the metallic smells – the luminous and all that stuff, you know, the chafe – we literally watched as two Navy planes fly over Humu’ula dusting out the whole place at 11:30 at night – just blackness – you think it’s mist but it’s literally dust – no, it’s called luminous. I looked it up. It’s also called chem trails, it’s called smart dust but this is stuff that the military is literally spraying over the mountains. That could be a reason why the birds are not being productive. I don’t know but I looked up what they’re doing and public law 105-85 is allowing the military to do these chem trails and we really can’t do nothing about it but I think what you mentioned makes sense that, you know, it’s so much bombing going on there up at Pohakuloa – two – what two months ago. It’s crazy. The first time I see that, you know, it’s like bomb! Things just shaking it was like whoa. I stay up there – I sleep over – and the next day your nostrils burn, you know, so I got it tested – arsenic. They swabbed my noise – arsenic, you know, so maybe that could be the problem – I’m not sure – but thank you. NP: That’s an interesting thought. Thank you. JMG: Yeah. TN: Teresa here in Kona, Nani, please? Are feral cats being controlled up at the Mauna where the bird population is supposed to be thriving. Do you know, Brian? BL: I’ve seen one live cat and tracks on R1 this year. KS: We trap for cats at the water units and we do have some trap lines during the bird season – though we use conibear Traps – body grips – but we don’t use those during the bird season because of their potential harm to dogs – so during the bird season we don’t do much cat trapping. We do a little bit of live trapping, um, but not like we do outside of the bird season, so we do trap for cats and mongoose on the mountain. TN: Teresa, again, so have you seen the population of the feral cats or mongooses increase or decrease through the years? 34 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 KS: In the short time I’ve been here, I mean, we’re not doing a population estimate for those animals in the short time that I’ve been here we’ve probably seen in the last couple of years an increase just because our staffing has decreased – so we’ve spent less time trapping than we wanted to – so we – I had a couple guys that were trapping pretty consistently and then I lost them and so I just got one guy about a year ago so we started it up again, um, so probably in the last year or two – and I can’t say it has gone up – but we haven’t been trapping as much so you would assume that those numbers have gone up a little bit, um, but we are trapping again. NP: Right. Thank you. Well, we’ve got to keep moving on. Thank you so much Brian, um, so I have a little slide show just to give everybody a visuals on the areas we’re talking about. And it will just take a moment and Nora’s gonna help me. OK. This is a visual on the areas we’re talking about. This is Kaohe – I had the pleasure of getting invited on a bird hunting trip and, um, so I took pictures – bird hunters in the field... OK. This is a good picture of the overgrown grasses that the hunters are having to traverse, um, going up clear to their chests without the goats and sheep to graze ‘em. OK. I took a picture of this because, um, I do admit I noticed that there are pigs in the Kaohe GMA and critical habitat and I noticed that the pigs are making nests under the mamane trees – this is a trunk of a mamane – and what I noticed about it was that there actually, in my opinion, weeding around the mamane. Here’s another sample of where the pigs have been sleeping and I noticed that, um, everywhere where they’ve been sleeping is popolo berry – right there – you see it to the right – they’re not native – they’re indigenous and they have herbal value. I’ve never seen more beautiful popolo berry than where the pigs are nesting. And here’s a picture of a mamane tree – they’re very beautiful up there – they were all blooming and they look healthy and great and I, you know, I just, you know the reason why the palila are continuing to decline – it’s one of the things we’d really like to know – what is it since the sheep are, um, for the most part non-existent in critical palila habitat. And right here is the picture of pig manure and the reason I took this picture is because, you know, things are dry up there. I picked it up it up and I looked through the pig manure and it’s all grass. They’re eating – primarily they’ve turned into grazers. Their manure looks just like cow pies and, um, so they are helping the grass situation. I had more slides but somehow I didn’t get ‘em up, but anyway that’s a visual on what we’re talking about in the Kaohe GMA critical habitat. Thank you. OLD BUSINESS NP: All right so now we’re go on to Old Business. I would like to confirm committees with the commissioners real quickly, um, so we have a Government Relationship and Legislative Committee. And on that I have Stanley Mendes, Grayson and Abraham confirmed and myself. 35 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 ?: Confirmed. NP: And then Traditional and Customary Practices and Coastal Issues is Teresa but, um, we may not have Teresa for very much longer so I was hoping somebody would take her position on that and then we would also get some members in the committee from the public to strengthen that committee. And then we have the Shooting Range Working Group and we’re gonna lose Jim O’Keefe so I was gonna ask you Kean if you would be chair and head it up and so Stanley – you’re in the Shooting Range Committee and Tom Lodge is a non-committee member, ah, and then the Game Management Plan and Public Hunting Land Committee. I think I would like to put the Game Management Plan issue on hold till after the legislative season is what I was thinking – what do guys think Kanalu and... I know you’ve been working on it and as far as our interaction – just thinking because legislation might make a difference maybe – we got some bills, so we’ll kinda shelf that one just a little bit not, not, we’re always gonna be open to information, of course, on it. OK and then the State GMAC Communication Report – that’s George Donev. He’s gonna be tracking the actions of the State Game Management Advisory Commission – so if anybody else wants to join any of these committees or have any comment on them – so that’s that. TN: Nani? NP: Yes? TN: Teresa. Even after my term is up I’d like to be a non-commission member of the Customary Practices. NP: Please do. That would be excellent. Thank you so much Teresa. All right and so, um, I had some forms about navigating through the legislature and I sent ‘em to the Commissioners. I hope you got them and you would read those and so we would be positioned to react to the bills when they come up and to write letters to legislators. I really appreciate the commitment on the commissioners cause things might get really heated up and we’re gonna need all the help we can get and so New Business... ?: Hold on Nani. So which bills you pushing forward? NP: I’m gonna talk about them under Committee Reports. NEW BUSINESS th NP: New Business. I wanted to mention next meeting on the 11 of February we’re gonna be dealing with Ocean, Coastal and River and Stream issues. In our charter we’re about the matters related to the preservation of subsistence hunting and fishing so we’re gonna get an overall report from Jaerick Garcia 36 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 from the Pepeekeo Shoreline Fishing Assn so word of mouth – anybody who has issues as fishermen we’d really appreciate if they’d come and share them next meeting. And so we’ll move on to Committee Reports – if anybody on the committees has a report. I have a report. COMMITTEE REPORTS NP: OK. So from the Legislative Committee – we have three bills we’re trying to introduce and so we’ve been talking to legislators and it’s a lot of work – it’s really had to get someone to sponsor your bills but it looks like Mark Nakashima – he’s going to sponsor our bill to give HCR 22 more power by – he’s gonna move it from a resolution – anyway he’s gonna make it a bill rather than a resolution which establishes the value of our game resources HCR 22 and then Lorraine Inouye – she’s going to sponsor our bill to require that the HCP for Puuwaawaa-Puuanahulu be completed – the over ten year old habitat conservation plan – we’d really like to see it finished. So she’s gonna sponsor that bill and the Kai Kahele is willing to sponsor our bill that will require an investigation of why palila are still declining and to revisit the mandate, um, of sheep eradication. So that’s the update on our legislative – we haven’t gotten numbers to our bills or anything – it’s still about a lot of phone calls and writing back and forth but it looks like it’s going forward and so hopefully we’ll get a lot of support. We’re gonna need a lot of people to testify and hang in there for our bills. TN: Nani, Teresa in Kona... NP: Yes. TN: We also have Andy Levin who will be our lobbyist again representing the County as legislation – so I think it would be wise for you to come in contact with Andy so he can visit the various legislators that are supporting the various bills that we have put forth. NP: Yup. I’d like to just move over to Oahu and be there every day but... TN: Well, Andy will be there and that’s why he can be our voice also so... NP: Thank you. TN: If you could be in touch with him... NP: I do remember him. That’s a good idea. Thank you very much. All right so do we have any Commissioners Report by District? COMMISSIONERS REPORT BY DISTRICT 37 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 NP: So I just want to take this moment at this Commissioners Report by District point to really thank – I know Jim O’Keefe isn’t here and I wish he was but, um, Jim O’Keefe and Teresa Nakama have served the Commission very faithfully. I really appreciate all they’re contributed and I was hoping they would both stay on for another 90 days – which they can till we get a replacement and Teresa says she will. I don’t know about Jim, but I really appreciate our Commissioners and their faithful volunteer service. It’s really a lot and wow, any other – please? You want to come up and state your name? DT: Good evening commissioners. My name is Dean Tarcey and I grew up on the Big Island but I moved up to the mainland and I was up there for 38 years but we grew up in a hunting family and I wanted to speak a little bit about the bird hunting – especially on Mauna Kea. We grew up – my Dad was a diehard hunter so we hunted during the bird season chukar mostly. But I was hunting 35-50 years ago and at that time there was a lot of game – I mean all different kinds of birds. So I’ve been back to Hawaii Island about three years now and my brother still hunts, my nephew does and I’ve got some friends and their sons son but I’ve heard the comments about the grass, um, and maybe if it’s – and we all kind of know, you know, the population count is affected by habitat, drought, animals and stuff like that – anyway, the stats that you brought 14,000-6,000 was kind of shocking so I kinda looked out at the drought condition – during that year 2018 we were – it wasn’t a drought year so I’m kind of wondering – and we all know about climate change and I’ve heard about the grasses getting thick and maybe even going further up the slope and so – and then again the chucker count was only a 3 or 4 and so that was shocking. I don’t know if it’s from Puu La’au to Kemole or what but that was shocking because they used to have a lot of birds – chukars up there. So I’m thinking was there maybe a disease or something that maybe knocked the population down. There was also a lot of turkeys back then and on occasion I would look at the checkout list and then granted the urkel count is way high and I can see now they use that – more hunters hunt with dogs – and so because the urkel population’s high – that’s what they’re hunting and I see it translate to the bag coming out, ah, so I’m kinda curious myself if with climate change maybe temperatures got little hot, warmer that the grasses are moving upslope. I’m not sure what the pukiawe is doing – how that condition is because the chucker when I used to cut the feed bag I’d notice here they got pukiawe seeds, they got mamane flowers, they got some of the flowers and grasses of plants on the ground and so I’m not sure what – if that’s a problem or not with habitat and I’m kinda suggesting maybe too that it would be nice to get some controlled areas – take pictures... NP: Yeah... DT: ....and then see if there is from year to year or season to season a change in the habitat – there is the invasive grasses getting thicker as it goes up the mountain. But I’m curious as well because, yeah, it’s a huge drop and I’m 38 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 wondering what was the cause like you’ve raised as well. So anyway, thanks for all the input from everybody and I think that’s all very interesting. NP: Thank you. That was some really interesting points. DT: Thanks so much.... NP: Thank you so much. Right, the grasses and the hunters – the report is coming, yeah, we all want to know why – we’d really like to know and hopefully you can get grants – grants to find out why. Anyway, I’m sorry I really actually neglected to reach out to the audience – Is there anybody else who’d like to say anything more tonight please feel free to come on up and say what’s on your mind. Otherwise, if not, then I supposed pretty much done. ADJOURNMENT TN: Teresa here. Motion to adjourn. NP: Wait, wait. One second Teresa. I just want to make sure everyone knows the next meeting is February 11 and so, right, if there isn’t anything further – thank you Teresa made a move to adjourn anyone want to second that. SM: Stanley second... NP: All in favor say aye. Meeting adjourned at 8:22p. 39 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – January 14, 2020 40