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Home My WebLink About2016-09-26 Game Management Advisory Commission Minutes Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 Game Management Advisory Commission County of Hawaii Minutes Meeting Date: Monday, September 26, 2016 Time: 6:30 p.m. Place: Hawaii County Building – Council Chambers I. CALL TO ORDER: II. ROLL CALL: Willie-Joe Camara, District 1 – Dwayne “Ike” Yoshina, District 2 – Ryan Kohatsu – Naniloa Poglen - Thomas H. Lodge, District 5 - Kenneth “Kalani” DeCoito, District 6 – District 7 Mark C. Bartell – District 8 – Jonathan Bertsch – District 9 Quorum established ALSO PRESENT: Belinda Castillo-Hall, Corporation Counsel B. Command, Deputy Planning Director GUESTS: Dr. Sidney Ross Singer, Env. Anthropologist Invasive Species James Cogswell, DOFAW, Wildlife Program Manager Dr. Shaya Honarvar, DOFAW, Game Program Coordinator III. ANNOUNCEMENTS AND INTRODUCTIONS: IV. APPROVAL OF THE MINUTES V. BUDGET REPORT VI. PUBLIC TESTIMONY ON AGENDA ITEMS: 1 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 TL: OK, Belinda. That’s appropriate, right? BL: Sorry, I missed the question. TL: She wants to make a comment on our meetings that we deferred from the last meeting – that’s appropriate, isn’t it? BL: This is somebody from the public? TL: Yes. BL: Yes, she’s able to \[unclear\] the minutes from the last meeting. TL: Right. OK. All right, very good. Go ahead. TN: Tom, you were gonna ask Chris Yuen for documentation and I was wondering if that documentation could include the signing of the Governor on the Marine Reserve Area at Kaupulehu – a copy of that signed document. TL: OK. You’re asking us to see if we can get a signed copy of the Kaupulehu... TN: Marine Reserve... TL: ....that ten year... TN: Yeah. TL: ....moratorium on Kaupulehu, is that correct? TN: Right. TL: OK. Yes, we can. We probably can ask for it... TN: Thank you. TL: Any other public comments on our agenda from \[unclear\]? OK, if not I’ll move forward. I’d like to introduce Dr. Sydney Ross Singer, the Environmental Anthropologist, um, and we’ve asked him – he had a very interesting article in the paper a couple of weeks ago, um, that discussed invasive species and our management of those species – it may refer to some of the things that we’re gonna be involved in going forward as far as invasive species and we’ve asked him to give us a little more information on the background of that article, so, Dr. Singer, ah, glad to meet you... 2 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 VII. DISCUSSION: 1. Dr. Sydney Ross Singer, Environmental Anthropologist on the impact of Invasive Species and their Management DS: Thank you, Tom, thank you for having me here, um, I think to start off we need to discuss that there’s really two types of invasive species, ah, there is the type that are basically pests that everyone would agree with are pests: mosquitoes and the diseases that they carry; fungus that infects our ohia; various agricultural pests; noxious plants that are poisonous – poisonous to animals. I think we would all agree on that and I think throughout the history of taking care of agriculture and the environment in Hawaii and on the mainland, in general, people have been aware of the need to control pests. But there’s another type of invasive species and that is a species that is an alien to an environment and that can cause damage to either, either if it can, or is likely to cause damage to human health, the environment or the economy. And because the environment is being interpreted by these rules that define the invasive species that way, as being something that should be native and restores to a native ecosystem status. Species are being judged as invasive because basically they’re not native and they’re not part of the preservationists’ scenario and goal of protecting native species and restoring native ecosystems and I think because we have this – these two definitions of invasive species \[unclear\] that term has co-opted what used to be just “pests” and I think that’s created controversy because many of the species that are labeled now as invasive simply because they are introduced, um, these are beneficial species that were introduced for a reason – many of them. And, I think, the reason this is of interest to the Game Management community is that many of these species are food animals and from plants that were brought here for sustainability, for, ah, to provide food and to this day are still an important component of the diet of many people, ah, especially in, you know, parts of Puna, where I live. I know it’s a very important part of the culture and the personal economy. So when you have this – so there’s basically these two different approaches to what’s invasive and unfortunately we’re dealing with a bio-security agenda right now, and there’s – I was really glad you asked me today because \[unclear\] is still open on the proposed bio-security plan until like mid-October, you should check on that, Tom, but you can still make comment and the comment that I said to them, um, was that, I think the resistance that you’re getting over the years \[unclear\] invasive species management is that they’ve been attacking the wrong things. They’ve been attacking species that have benefits but, once they label it invasive there are no benefits, ah, to the, to that preservationist model of what is invasive, what is – doesn’t belong in Hawaii based upon an arbitrary date in history – pre-western contact – and at that point they’re after anything that was brought – 3 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 doesn’t belong – by using that kind of a 300-year-old environmental model, ah, and judging our current species based on that – it’s a fantasy model and it’s causing this conflict and rift with the conservation community that wants to utilize natural resources in a sustainable way. The problem is – once something is considered invasive is no longer considered to have any resource value, um, it’s like a black and white determination and I think that, ah, you know, so what’s happening is the government instead of just protecting our natural resources – they’re really just protecting our native resources and, um, they’re basically two types of environmental approaches. One is conservation, like I said, conservation and, and I think a lot of people in this community, ah, in the government and so forth they call conservation what they’re doing but they’re actually doing preservation. Conservation is, has, is a philosophy that says that man belongs in the environment and can utilize the environment responsibly and sustainably for – so that it’s still around in future generations but there’s nothing wrong with using natural resources and exploiting them for human purposes as long as it’s not in a destructive way. I think the other approach is a preservation approach which says that the human – humans have basically destroyed the environments and are the worst thing that’s ever happened and we need to pull people out of the environments and reverse any effects that they’ve had, so the definition of an introduced species is something a human brought here – it’s really a very misanthropic philosophy. Humans are the problem and the solution is to try to re-establish some sort of pristine, unhumanized environment. So they want to keep people out of the environment unless you’re like a Sierra Club type, who wants to go for inspiration, so what your conservation \[unclear\] with food, wood, game, but if you’re a preservationist you go to the environment for inspiration which, which, yes? TL: I want to speak to one of the comments that you made in your article. \[Unclear\]... DS: Yeah, I was going to. TL: \[Unclear\] you were referring to the mosquito \[unclear\] eradicate, you know, the mosquito... DS: Yeah... TL: ....and how that eradication might effect, you know, other things and, ah, so \[unclear\] for example, and, um, where – we also have a question on – well I have a question, anyway, too, is like, you speak of rapid ohia death, you know, they went out and tried to eradicate \[unclear\] for example, and, you know, the i’iwi which they had from \[unclear\] um, is one of the birds 4 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 that actually was utilizing the, ah, banana poka and I don’t know if I jumped in too soon before you got to that... DS: I was gonna get there, cause I think what I was gonna lead to with that – cause I know exactly where you’re going with this – because of this view and I’m trying to show the philosophical underpinnings that they’re different – because of this view, we’ve been hearing some very mis- informed things coming from managers, including in the government, in fact, this – this particular person that stipulated my editorial was Dr. Kenneth Kaneshiro, who’s the program director UH Manoa, Center for Conservation and Research training. And he made the very ridiculous statement, in my opinion, and \[unclear\] scary statement that it doesn’t matter if we kill the mosquitoes and eradicate them completely because they’re not native anyway and they don’t belong in a native Hawaii ecosystem. And the reason why that’s so wrong is because, I mean, as every biologist knows there’s a big food web, which connects everything and species that are mosquitoes, I mean, there a lot of mosquitoes, there’d be a lot more if they weren’t being eaten, and there’s a lot of animals that eat them, including the endangered hoary bat. So we start seeing a connection between native species and introduced species, cause they’ve lived together for quite a while, I mean, after a species been here for – and unfortunately there’s not cut off for this but like a hundred years – it’s part of the environment and when you try to remove it you’re gonna be affecting the environment. Now that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t get rid of the mosquitoes, but it – but the problem is the statement was made that environmental impacts are non-existent because it doesn’t – they don’t belong in \[unclear\] ecosystems anyway and that nativity and short-sightedness and using a native ecosystem as a frame of reference is not very scientific and is not valid. You know, three hundred years ago, ah, things were different – there was climate change that’s happened since then and some natives, some species can’t exist as well where they were three hundred years ago – others may reproduce out of control where they were three hundred years ago. Species have become extinct in the interim, ah, there’s so many introductions; there’s changes in cultural patterns that have affected pollution and, ah, water distribution and so forth – there’s so much that’s changed over the last three hundred years that we cannot go back and the problem is that that’s the mandate that the government has – when President Clinton in 1999 signed the Executive Order 13112, that created the invasive species council on the federal level – one of the definitions and mandates there was to restore native ecosystems and protect native species and with that \[unclear\] also was what I mentioned before that if a species is alien and it can affect these native species, basically, then they’re invasive. So anything that doesn’t fit into what was here 300 years ago is theoretically can be killed and that’s what’s pitting the, so, so, what happens like with the pig now that we know the pig is, ah, genetically related to, um, the pigs that were brought by 5 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 Polynesians – is this now a native pig that should be protected or could be killed? And look how arbitrary that this is, it’s just like, you know, to kill or not to kill, that’s the question and the answer is – is it native or not? And, it, you can kill it today if you think it’s, it’s non-native, but, then, what if you discover that it is native or that it’s helping, you know, I’ll give you another example, um, the Fish & Wildlife on its website about the pueo – has a very interesting, you know, description of the pueo’s history in Hawaii. Here’s the, you know, the Hawaiian owl that is endemic and it’s revered and it’s iconic and it’s, I mean, it’s the pueo. And the pueo was introduced after Hawaiian arrival and the introduction by the Hawaiians of rats, because the pueo needs small animals to prey on. So owls can migrate quite far – so if they migrate to Hawaii prior to prey being here they would have starved \[unclear\]. So they only could survive after the introduction of rats. So here we show the inter-connectedness of this, of, of, that nature isn’t so prejudiced that native species are not willing to use introduced species and, I think, the whole terminology of invasion biology that’s invaded environmentalism has made it so that we now have environmentalists going out into the wild armed with poisons and chain saws to destroy what they see as intruding nature on an ecosystem that they want to re-establish that existed three hundred years ago and ironically, I mean, here they’re trying to create and you can understand the emotional aspects to this – oh, these species are nowhere else in the world – they’re disappearing, OK, I get that. But if you try to recreate a small area that is like an ecosystem on the past that’s made up of native iota – you’re gonna have to fight against climate change, keep out insects, keep out rodents and feral cats and mongooses and birds and humans and the pollution constantly, so, ironically, the creation of these pristine ecosystems that are supposed to have no impact or fingerprint of man requires the constant input of man to manage. So what they’re doing is they’re saying, well, we, instead of worrying about the rats coming in why don’t we just get rid of all the rats and now they’re actually proposing rodenticide releases in the wild to kill rodents and mongooses, and, of course, there’ll be cats and other birds and secondary consumers of poisoned rodents and the list will go on, but, what I find very distressing and I can’t understand how biologists who love nature can really not get this, um, when you have species like barn owls and cattle egrets, who were introduced in the 1950s for pest control, now being targeted because they affect native species so they’re considered invasive and they want to shoot them, you know, and kill them, um, when you have all of these, you know, food animals in the wild that are feeding people for, you know, centuries, I mean, it’s a long time – a whole culture around this – and these creatures are being vilified because they don’t fit into this paradigm about preservation and restoration and there are laws now being passed that mandate that these government workers – environmental managers – have as their goal restoration of ecosystems from three hundred years ago – and protection of native species, ah, killing as many non-natives as 6 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 you need to if it means protecting one native species. It’s a war of the environment and based upon this arbitrary assignment of nativity to some and not to others and I think we need to have, so I think the solution for this is for the biosecurity agenda to exclude the native, non-native criteria and just work on pests that everyone could agree with. I think that would help their efforts – because they want the public behind them – and they’re not getting it when they’re killing animals and plants that the public wants and, I mean, the strawberry guava debacle was a perfect example. I was involved in that as well, fighting against the release of the Tectococcus ovatus scale insect to infest the strawberry guava trees, which would have been like everybody’s trees if they were successful and, um, and that shows how they’re thinking. They don’t care that this tree – actually they did care that this tree feeds wildlife because all the wildlife is non-native. So they don’t mind that it’s going to kill and starve other wildlife. They don’t mind that the rodenticide is gonna have secondary impacts on, on this other wildlife, because the wildlife is non-native. It seems that the only thing that they care about is the native wildlife. And we need to hold these people accountable to let them know that the ecosystem that we’re living in right now – the environment that we’re in right now – is the reality that many of us are wanting to protect, because that environment has resources that we value and when the government, who has traditionally protected those resources now suddenly defines them – those resources as being invasive and not belonging in Hawaii – along with people and everything, um, we need to change that debate and we need to let them see that that’s not working – that we can do that on small scale and set aside small areas where there’s constant protection – sort of like a botanical garden or some – a museum of the past that people can see, “OK. This is how it was.” But on a practical basis, you can’t do and you can’t poison the islands and shoot all the animals and drive away the culture that relies on them. And, and, that’s the problem. If you, if you rely on game animals for subsistence and game animals are invasive – then the hunting community is supporting invasive species and it makes you the enemy and it makes them not even able to listen to you because the government’s agenda is to restore these ecosystems – it’s a mandate. I don’t know if they even think about it that way – I think they might but it’s their job. They have to restore, they have to protect the natives, um, so I don’t know how to get away from that except to change the laws as well, but also work on the fact that you are – there are laws that still protect game animals and I think you need to emphasize that and, and realize that it’s in conflict with these laws to kill non-native species. TL: I agree. That may be one of the subjects that we might be touching on, ah, later this evening, uh, I’m gonna have to have you kinda wrap this up here just a little bit, but, ah, I appreciate your, your comments and especially the fact that your – you seem to be concentrating on the idea that rather than just taking one or the other we need to start working as to, you know, 7 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 blending our approach or integrating our approach to invasive species, you know, some of invasive species are gonna be like for hunting, for example, um, or like the tobacco plants, you know, for the Sphinx Moth and, you know, which is another invasive plant and also, I’m told, ah, banana poka, ah, you know, which, you know, or the rapid ohia death or maybe it wasn’t such a great idea to get rid of all the banana poka at that time, um, so, and then, you know, strawberry guava, ah, some is being affected in my yard and, you know, no jams or jellies for me, you know, so... I agree with you there, um, we’d like to work with you on some of this stuff and, ah, as time goes on, um, maybe you could help us, you know, craft some ideas for working with, ah, the DLNR and some of these things – it has a new game program manager, ah, coordinator - a game program coordinator, I think she is here with us this evening, so we’d like to hear her comments and maybe she might address, you know, some of your comments as well and, ah, and I do appreciate you coming here. You’re the very interesting article you, you’ve caused me, anyway, I don’t know about the rest, that, um, \[unclear\] think about what you’ve said and I think that, you know, it’s a concerning issue, ah, you know, with such a broad brush like that, um, does anybody from the audience have any comments or questions for Dr. Singer? Yes, Richard... ? Can you come to the mic so we can hear over here – thank you? And please state your name. RH: My name is Richard Hoeflinger – one of the ways that, ah, some attention might be brought to the arbitrary definition of some point in time and what follows from that and they, ah, arbitrary picking of what’s good and what’s bad by some god in some government organization – would be to point out some of the fallacies that have happened. If we had a listing of some of the real blunders \[unclear\] what comes to my mind was the incident of a protected fox on one of the Channel Islands in California, ah, somebody decided they wanted to get rid of all the pigs on the island, so the eagles that formerly feasting on pigs then became – started feasting on the endangered fox. So when you, as you pointed out, when you meddle with all of this stuff it’s all inter-connected. You can’t just pick something and take some isolated action without it impacting \[unclear\]. I think that was part of those points you were talking about. Thank you very much. DS: Thank you. That is exactly right and like in the case of the mosquito, I mean, it seem obvious you all want to get rid of mosquitoes, but there are animals that do feed on them and the environmental impacts may be something you don’t \[unclear\] any, any insects eating species that will miss the mosquito will put more pressure on other species and that’ll, you know, have impacts down the line. So you just need to assess all those effects and not just assume – just because it wasn’t here before – we don’t need it – we can just get rid of it and it’s not a significant impact. In 8 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 fact, the government is \[unclear\] law suits. Fish & Wildlife in the late 80s – I’m sure it’s done in other cases, but I saw recently in the late 80s they were trying to get rid of foxes in California – red foxes that were introduced – and they’d been there over a hundred years – but the Fish & Wildlife said, “We don’t have to do an EIS because, ah, these are non-native and they weren’t here before so it doesn’t matter getting rid of them. And they were wrong. They had to do an EIS about that issue – it doesn’t matter if they’re non-native, you have – it affects the ecosystem as it is – it’s affecting the environment – they’re part of the environment – so, um, yeah, it’s a lot about nomenclature and the, um, and trying not to be – I just don’t know how you’re going to get around the mandating of this into laws – I don’t know if the government people, I mean, I’ve spoken with them now for years too. I don’t know if they can hear beyond their job description to say, you know, I agree with you, you know, there’s nothing wrong with that species – they’re actually beneficial, but my job is, I got to get rid of ‘em because we’re supposed to only have native stuff here and that’s the way it is, it’s like that’s the rule. And I wonder if that’s what they think but I don’t think they’ll be able to admit that. TL: We’re gonna have to kind of close on – and you commissioners have any questions for Dr. Singer? DY: The comment I have is that you see clearly. DS: Thank you. DY: But nobody listens. I think your frustrations are, um, I share them because I’ve, you know, personally, I’m a conservationists but any time I come to a meeting and, and you mention the fact that you like to see some sheep up on the mountain or some – people stop listening, but, again, you see clearly. I don’t know how we get that message to those that make our \[unclear\] policies. DS: You know, I’d like to comment on that because I think the message is – part of the problem is this makes a lot of money for somebody – all of the eradication – in any war - the am - the ones who do the munitions are the ones who make the money and this war on the environment is a lot of the chemical industry – you see Monsanto and VASF and Dow – they work closely with the government and closely with the university and there’s a lot of money spent every year weeding trees, spraying them over and over and over and it’s like job security for sure and the accumulative effect on our environment is not good – but I think that that dominates the agenda and, you know, money talks and they’re in control – they’ve gotten the laws in there now – they have their politicians in there that you can’t get rid of and I don’t know – I don’t know the answer – we need like an enlightened time with a bunch of new, enlightened politicians to change 9 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 the laws and get rid of these new definitions that force them to do certain things no matter what. TL: Kalani did you have a? ?: No, thank you. Like Ike said you pretty much – we all share that same perspective on all this, but, that is a huge question is how do we get this message across that they’re not all bad, right, every time I bring something up it’s – it just falls on deaf ears. Thank you. TL: I know we could probably go for hours more but, um, we’re going to have to bring forth our other guest here \[unclear\] we do appreciate. Anybody from Kona \[unclear\]? ?: Ah, yeah, thanks for coming, we agree. TL: OK, all right, Sid, thank you very much sir... OK, I’d like to introduce \[someone speaking on WH side blocking the transcription\] Shaya Honarvar, right, close? And James Cogswell – those of you who’ve been here before \[unclear\] recognize him – he’s the, um, wildlife program manager for the DLNR and, um, he’s, um, \[unclear\] this evening to share a couple of messages with us and also to introduce Shaya – we’ve been looking forward to him for years, actually, um, with that, I wonder if you could \[unclear\] Jim you might want to introduce her a little bit as to how you got a hold of her and how we got started here and then she can maybe tell us a little bit about her background. \[Technical difficulties\] 2. James Cogswell, Department of Forestry and Wildlife (DOFAW), Wildlife Program JC: Thank you very much and it’s good to be back here. Again, I’m Jim Cogswell, the Wildlife Program Manager for DLNR and we’re very proud to have been able to bring on Shaya Honarvar, ah, on to our team, um, it was a long time coming, ah, we’ve gone through many, many trials interviewing different, ah, people who’ve applied and not finding quite the right mix and, ah, during that time as well the Program Manger was also changing out so – it was always a moving target, um, but I think now the DLNR – at least the Wildlife Program’s becoming much more solid – we’ve got a core team that is very strong and, ah, Shaya is going to be an integral part of it, um, my vision for – looking for a Game Coordinator was my realization – it’s a really unique situation that there is in Hawaii – the game are introduced and, ah, and they have a large impact on the environment as every species that exists has an impact on the environment, um, and there are two sides of the story is as – was just 10 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 pointed out, um, and, ah, it’s very complicated and the environment is very complicated so we needed to bring someone on board who could help us sort through that complexity and bring some real, ah, scientific background to look at what the issues are – to be able to examine those issues and find solutions that are – to satisfy all of our needs and, and, ah, and, I think with Shaya – she’s got some great qualifications – she has a long background, ah, working with both endangered species and some work, as well, with some hunting communities, um, she worked primarily in Africa, ah, which is unusual you might think, but as – she has a familiarity with working with, ah, people and listening to people more – not as taking over and saying that, you know, she’s an expert, she’s been here forever, she knows everything – so she is going to have to learn from the people in the field and, and develop her own ideas based on what she hears and what she – how she interacts with, with the hunting community that’s out there and, and she’s got a very strong analytical, scientific background that can help really focus some of the questions and some of the arguments that have been made in the past – we’ll be able to get some clear answers to those and more focus to the program, um, so, without further ado maybe I’ll let her speak a little bit about, ah, where she’s coming from and so here’s Shaya... Dr. Shaya Honarvar, DOFAW’s new Game Program Coordinator and our Game Management Planning for the State of Hawaii SH: Good evening everyone and thank you for having me here. TL: Could you \[unclear\] closer to the... SH: Is that better? TL: Some of us aren’t as young as you are \[unclear\]... SH: Um, so I have recently moved to Hawaii in beginning of July and started th working for DOFAW on July 18. So I’ve been here very short period of time, um, just a little about my background – I have a masters degree from the Netherlands – I am from the Netherlands – and I received a second masters degree from the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia in, um, in, ecology and evolutionary biology. I then continued my studies at \[unclear – sounds like Drexel\] University and received a Ph.D. in 2008 in Philadelphia, as well. Since 2008, before I started working for DOFAW I’ve been working Equatorial Guinea – Equatorial Guinea is a very small central – West Central African country and it has – just a little background so you can imagine how similar it is, was, with Hawaii – it has a mainland portion and an island portion and I worked mainly on the island and the island is a very small island – it’s, um, in miles I think it’s around seven hundred fifty-seven, sixty square miles and it has three volcanoes and it 11 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 has a very, very dramatic landscape – just like some of the islands here and an amazing biodiversity – absolutely amazing – so during the past eight years that I have worked there as being the research director of the conservation organization and later on I created my own program and I became the research, um, assistant professor at Indian Purdue University, um, I had to, I had the opportunity to work, um, on and create many research programs, education programs and outreach programs, um, and all these programs that I conducted in Equatorial Guinea happened together with the community people, um, local communities and also with the national university, um, the Equatorial Guinea is where I also have some, um, experience working with hunters, um, there are two types of hunting in Equatorial Guinea – there’s the subsistence hunting and there is also the commercial, um, for the commercial \[unclear\] market – which is completely different than subsistence so as you can already kind of understand there is this big difference between the two types of hunting and the problems that can arise for the commercial hunting and the commercial hunting is mainly based on hunting for endangered species and it’s illegal – it’s illegal in the country but it happens anyway, um, so, after working there, um, just, just, I guess, just kind of to end the kind of talk about this for hours – I should probably finish, um, I’m very, very excited to be here in Hawaii and I’m very excited to – for DLNR to have chosen me to be in this position and I’m really looking forward to working with you all and with the hunting community here. TL: I’m sorry, Jim, I have one question – she brought up hunting endangered species and I happen to be looking at the DLNR’s website the other night and on ‘io – and in the ‘io – one of the – I don’t have a word for it here but essentially the treats to the ‘io, um, were essentially shooting and other harassment in the wild and, um, and I’m just curious how that got into your concerns as far as threats to the ‘io cause I don’t think there’s a hunter in Hawaii that had ever thought of taking a shot at an ‘io – other than the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service who wanted to take a few shots at ‘em to remove them from certain habitats for alala and the palila and what have you – maybe you can help us out there a little bit or were you talking about U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service and you were thinking about that? JC: No, I, ah, I’m actually not familiar with that nor the history of the ‘io, so, I’m sorry. NP: The ‘io were attacking the alala... The crow... JC: Yeah, the alala... Yeah... NP: Yeah... 12 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 JC: Yeah, I heard that... Yeah. And I know that was an issue but I don’t think people were shooting the ‘io \[unclear\], no, I’m sorry, I’ll have to look into that... TL: I’ll send you that DLNR \[unclear\] triggered that thought here... Can you explain something to me – you mentioned the word biodiversity and you hear that around here very frequently and, um, and when I actually looked up biodiversity there’s a lot of different definitions, um, as to what that could mean and I’m just curious what it is when you use the term biodiversity – what does that exactly mean? SH: For me biodiversity means just a lot of different species of animals – just – I don’t know. TL: OK. Would that include our pigs and our cats and our rats and sheep and goats and deer as well? SH: Yes, I mean the biodiversity is just a word that includes all species – it doesn’t differentiate – I don’t think basically \[unclear\] but, yeah... TL: OK. There are other definitions... SH: Yes, yes... TL: That happens to be one that I happen to agree with... SH: I mean there are definitely other definitions... TL: Right \[unclear\]. SH: But in the case that I used it was talking about \[unclear\] biodiversity that was... TL: Um, I have a bunch of questions but – is anybody here that would like to lead off with it... NP: I have a question. So, um, in managing game, um, there’s always been this questions – does anybody count the game that’s out there to manage and what is the good count that’s perfect for the carrying capacity of the land – the balance – would you be seeking a balance – would you be trying to establish a count and, also, do you care about the genetics – will you be trying to be sure that the quality of genetics in the game animals are protected? JC: So... 13 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 TL: You have a split personality they say... JC: Ah, actually, could you repeat the questions? NP: Um, well, you know there’s always been this question – is anyone counting the game animals and what count is considered too many and, and, um, are you gonna try to establish an on-going inventory of the animals and, and, and are you gonna try to preserve the good genetics of the game animals? JC: I think that’s a – where it’s possible – and where we have funding we will be counting animals, um, but to actually arrive at good estimations of populations and counts requires a lot of effort, research and money – the State of Hawaii is strapped – we’re... NP: But how can you eradicate – allow the eradication to happen when you don’t know what the population is and what’s the carrying capacity of the land? JC: No, there are other ways to get indexes for carrying capacity. You can look at the impacts of the – the erosion – you can look at food availability – you can look at dispersion of the populations as they get more, ah, the bigger a population gets the more they tend to disperse from their home areas so you get growing dispersion of those animals and all these techniques as well as you can use – like they use in the fishing industry – you can use monitoring and of catch per \[unclear\] to get a good handle on the abundance of animals and the capacity of that land to hold and you can watch those numbers go up and down and those are numbers that are more recently collected than actually going out collaring, catch and release, ah, catch and recapture and, and collaring, but in populations that are very important to us, um, we are definitely going to, ah, look at much more detailed population estimates, for example, in the Puuwaawaa, ah, area, ah, and enjoining game management area, um, we are, we just now did a big collaring effort where we collared – we captured, ah, seventy some sheep putting radio collar the males and females... NP: That’s not for a Judas program is it? JC: No, no, this is to understand the population dynamics of the sheep in, ah, in Puuwaawaa and, ah, accompanying that study we’re also looking at genetics. We’re taking blood samples, we’ve taken size and weight samples so, ah, this study will help us get a much better idea of home range, um, and a lot of other questions. Actually, I have a PowerPoint presentation that presents a little bit of that, but I don’t know if we have that \[unclear\] here. 14 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 TL: Oh, they asked me if you were gonna do a PowerPoint tonight as well... JC: But, ah, but, yeah – that’s one of the things that Shaya’s brought here to do is to help us come up with good ways to monitor the population – densities, carrying capacity, um, and get real data on impacts and so we can start determining what’s good and what’s bad and how to keep populations at a nice little sustainable and, ah, benefiting all. ?: So, OK, let’s go to the beginning of this whole thing – I have a couple of questions. First of all, this is a Game Program Coordinator – what is our game program and what is she gonna coordinate because I’m yet to see a game program. I see a game removal program but I don’t – I’ve never seen a game program, yet, and so what – what is she gonna – I mean, what are you going to coordinate with the program cause the only real program you have is an eradication program and that’s, you know, I mean, just go back to what Mr. Singer was saying and... I’m sorry, but this is the heart of this whole conversation is \[unclear\] I don’t know if you realize it or not, you are, we are losing our game by the minute and that’s why we’re here is... Yeah, it’s by government policy and lack of anybody... JC: It’s government policy to protect and promote hunting as well. ?: And then my second question – you can answer them all one time is speaking of Puuwaawaa – where is our HCP at? You know, what stage are we at – I thought in the beginning of summer – the last they were – had met with you or whatever – six or nine months – that it was pretty much a go and maybe it’s just a final yeah, let’s sign it but – is it signed? Is it moving – is it just back on the same desk it was for the past 12 years? DY: So a related question – maybe, maybe not but after Shaya and James – you heard Dr. Singer, right, and that’s, that’s the environment we’re working – that’s the reality of on-the-ground so given all of that and given what Willie-Joe just said – what can we do? How can we manage all this because, you know, since the 1980s we heard that Puuwaawaa was going to be a mixed use – I don’t know what you call it – reservation or something – and since the 1980s nothing has happened in terms of our game and the reasons for that are very much related to what Dr. Singer talked about – \[unclear\] – you know – my timeline is short, right, I don’t have too much time left on this earth and believe me if nothing is done I’ll come and haunt you guys. I \[unclear\]. But anyway, um, I’d like to know what can be done. JC: Um, for the – what is our game program, I mean, we have a very big game program - we have – there’s 11,000 hunters in Hawaii, um, we have hunting on all the islands – we have dedicated game management areas where we provide, ah, water for game, ah, where we – mostly game birds, 15 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 but, um, we also provide many areas where we look to not eradicate animals, for instance, in much of the forest reserve areas and the other public hunting areas you have – it’s not about eradicating the game mammals in the majority of those areas, it’s about controlling their impacts and we are monitoring the game, ah, the take, so that we can get an idea of game harvest for effort and so we’re aware of when it goes up and down and we can manage game bag limits accordingly – although bag limits have another – it’s hard to change a bag limit cause we need an act of Congress literally to do it, um, so that that has become an issue but, but, ah, we have, ah, dedicated people that go out there every day maintaining those roads, maintaining access, acquiring new game – potential game lands, ah, for public hunting, for example, here’s there’s, ah, we just got 2 million dollars from the legislature to expand the Hilo, ah, forest reserve – that will keep more land opened up for hunting, ah, we... TL: Excuse me, um, in that – where is that you’re talking about? JC: I left my notes at home. TL: Is that where the Finance Factors... JC: Yeah, uh huh, exactly. TL: Oh, very good. JC: That, that – so we’re moving forward with that. We’ve got other land deals as well in – that we’re trying to move on – trying to raise money on through federal grants as well as private donations and legislature appropriations, ah, we’ve, we’re in Puuwaawaa we’re starting a big research project to try to get a handle on the sheep and why those sheep are declining – genetics of the sheep, um, we’re, Shaya’s just initiated a new hunters’ survey to find out more of the needs of the hunters kind of related to – we’re gonna tie it into old hunting surveys that have been done in the past that have never been fully analyzed so we’re gonna analyze that and we’ll be able to see trends – monitor trends in that – we have, if you go onto our website you can get a hold of our PR grants – the hunting program – game management program, um, that’s full of all the fence, ah, fence maintenance, grounds maintenance, all of the, on the ground... TL: There’s a question you have... RH: On the PR program – that’s a sorry area for me... You have 3 million dollars in PR grants occurred this current period \[unclear\] and I go back and look at how that money is spent and nowhere is it related to how it benefits \[unclear\] or house it benefits \[unclear\]. I can’t draw the 16 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 relationship between you buying a new truck or you doing some mowing the grass somewhere with how that actually benefits the wildlife. I think... ?: Isn’t mowing grass a way to encourage game birds and increase game bird habitat? RH: Um, I’m a game bird lover. ?: Ah... RH: I know where you’re mowing grass, trust me, it’s not doing anything to help the population. Watering units, ah, everybody seems to think it’s probably a good idea, ah, I mean, why not? But how does it benefit the game \[unclear\] population. Nobody knows. You don’t know whether put a 20 water units around this whole damn how it’s gonna benefit the game bird population. It may not be worth the expense, so, if we got this money and you and both realize it’s limited funds, why don’t we put it where it’ll actually do some demonstrable good. Quit saying I got – filled up the water units. \[Unclear\] I’m not sure it – does it make any damn difference and in fact it probably has a down side – I suggest you go up on the mountain at opening \[unclear – sounds like Davis\] this year. Look where there are big concentrations of hunters. They’re all surrounding the watering units. I – you need to – in my view – if you want to get more cooperation, you need to show the benefit of how the money is spent and I have never seen that yet. JC: Thank you and... RH: You, I imagine you really are trying to be here to get beat \[unclear\]? JC: No, no, no, it’s not beat up. It’s good information and it’s things like this that, ah, that I realize we needed to cover much more, ah, in a much more effective and scientific way – which is why I brought someone with that kind of background to help us sort this out and to really measure our effectiveness at something that, that even, ah, Fish & Wildlife pointed out that, that our program doesn’t do as good a job as we should in measuring our effectiveness of our programs. What is the real impact of, of what we do and how we spend our money and that’s something that we’ve had to change in our state, our wildlife management plan, our \[sounds like slop\], and, ah, and we need to go for it and improve that and start keeping track of these kind of things and really getting a handle on how we are impacting and using that information to adapt our management programs so that we can have a better and bigger, wider impact, so exactly what you’re talking about here – we realize, it might be shortfall and, and we’re working on improving on it. 17 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 NP: I appreciate... JC: Ah, HCP, ah, it hit a snag. Quite frankly, the EA that was done, um, is being challenged in a very serious way and it looks like we’re gonna have to, ah, go for an EIS, ah, so... TL: Who challenged that? JC: Ah, it was and environmental organization – can’t remember off the top of my head, but they \[unclear\] part of the comment, ah, Marjorie... TL: Zeigler? JC: Yeah. And, ah, and so I think, ah, in order to avoid further litigation it would be much more prudent for us to go back – do our EIS the way we need to and answer these questions – put up the monitoring – cause there’s another thing – like you were saying – it’s – we have no way in that program of monitoring the impacts of more people on land doing the hunting – more game on the land and the EA only looks at the endangered species. ?: So basically, what you’re saying is, if we get a lot of money and a good lawyer and we threaten to sue then we would finally get something done because that’s basically what happens here is these groups have a lot of money and fancy lawyers and they threaten the state with litigation and therefore you back paddle on everything. When, when we met in Kona for that HCP, it was a done deal. Everything was good – nobody made – everybody was happy – I was there – I had no reason to counter anything – I took the word of the managers that the guys on the ground said they, yeah, this is good, this is a good deal – gonna go. JC: Yeah. ?: That was almost a year ago. JC: Yeah. ?: And then \[unclear – sounds like dingo\]. One person – that is our whole deal. We can 11,000 hunters stand here in this room and say we want one little thing – but that one person with the big backing gets everything they want. You got the whole mountain up there – there is not a sheep to be eat. But you never got any one more palila then there was before, when there was thousand, ten thousand sheep up there. I’m sure there’s less palila than there’s ever been. I, you know, how – that’s a – that’s our question – how... 18 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 JC: Can I say something? ? Sure, go ahead... JC: Yeah. Ah, so that’s the HCP – that’s the... ?: Habitat Conservation Plan... JC: Yeah. The HCP – that is going to allow us to use federal monies to enhance game, but there are other opportunities, I mean, we are moving ahead with research on the sheep to find out what’s happening to the population, um, we’re moving ahead on with hunts. We’ve opened up more hunting in that area... ?: I mean, I understand... JC: ....so giving opportunity. We’re looking at the impacts of all that. We’re opening up new lands in, ah, the Kona or the Hilo forest reserve, I mean, we’re, we are by no means stopping our plans to use that area as a recreational area for hunting, um... ?: But until, but until we have this HCP, which is like the Bible for this place, \[unclear\] constitution – we cannot effectively do any true game management. We cannot manage our game. Essentially, the hunts is adding to the removal of the game that’s there. The only, the only game that has even a little bit of help is the bird. Game mammals have not – zero. The watering units are out there, but they’re fenced off so that the game cannot drink the water. TL: So \[unclear\] asked that question... ?: I mean, that’s where our frustration is coming from. It’s not personal \[unclear\]. JC: No... We understand and, and it’s our job to work through this stuff... ?: Right. JC: ....with you. And, and that’s why we’re here to do that and Shaya’s got a lot of experience working with communities and that’s what we need to do – we need to bring the community more into the fold and, and get your help to make sure that we have the staffing to do it, make sure we have the funds to do it, make sure we know what we’re doing, um, so... TL: I, I have a question on that HCP... When, ah, Scott \[sounds like Frentz\] was here with you folks last, um, prior to, ah, the meeting and I’m not sure 19 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 if was when the video link dropped, but I had asked him about the fact that – why do we need federal funds, um, because you could just as well use state funds for little programs and if we’re using state funds for that program, how does this lawsuit by Zeigler impact that? ?: 195-D. You still need to, you still need to have a “take” permit to be able to manage game that potentially will take, ah, endangered plants. TL: What I’m getting at is the HCP took that into consideration. ?: The EA did not... So it’s the problem with the EA – it was... TL: What were they doing for fourteen years? JC: They were getting research data on where and how much endangered species were there and developing plans on how to best protect the majority and provide mitigation areas where – so that you could mitigate with the plants that were outside those areas, so... TL: Well, I’m \[unclear\]. That area is – was a game management area at one time – it was assigned as a game management area. That area is, um, listed and is essentially trash, ah, \[unclear\] degraded, and I think is the actual term that you folks use, um, for that, um. So when you have the EA which addressed the endangered plants and their impacts and the ways to mitigate those were, and, this suit, if anything, would it impact the federal funds, would it not? JC: I’m not sure. TL: Well, it’s already a game management area, I mean, why does a game management area already a game management need to have an EIS now? JC: Yeah. As long as we don’t, ah, actively increase the game mammals... TL: But it’s a game management area... JC: Yeah, so manage that... TL: \[Unclear\] JC: ....\[unclear\] population levels that those game are – which we can guarantee that and we’re not enhancing game \[unclear\]... TL: But where does that come from? Where does that decision... 20 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 DY: I think, I think it comes from the Endangered Species Act and all that. It follows and, and this is the contradiction that we have. You know, it’s this federalization \[unclear\] our state initiatives – cause that’s what drives all of this and, and it comes back to what Dr. Singer said – you define something and that’s law. And so my question has always been – if that’s the policy of the state – why are we going through this Kabuki play of telling everybody we have game management? Because we don’t, you know, and, and you guys have to talk to your counterparts and kind of settle that, because unless you guys settle that – we’re just whistling in the wind and we’ve done it for 40 years now, as, as, I’m concerned and, and I have another question. Where does the aquatics resources stuff enter into all of this, because it is also game are they not? JC: Yes, they are... You’ll have to address DAR with that, I don’t... TL: Getting back to what he just brought up and, um, you’re talking about enhancing game, now – at what point, I mean, \[unclear\] we’ve had many more, you know, Willie-Joe can probably address a little better than I can, um, but there were times when there was lots of game in Puuanahulu and, um, and, and Puuwaawaa, as well, and those numbers are dramatically reduced at this point, so, at what point – where does that cut off – as it gets to each low point that’s the threshold and if they go through another low point that’s a threshold that they come back up to a, you know, a low point that once was but it came down because of a drought or whatever it is it can go back up with that or is that gonna be, I mean, there’s, there’s, there’s a lot of \[unclear\] don’t mean to \[unclear\], um... JC: No, it’s a very, very complex situation and, and it’s, it’s not one that can be easily answered. It’s not one that’s easily managed, um, but, we’re also mandated to do that – exactly that thing and, and we are dedicated to doing that and will work with all of you as hard as we can to make sure that we get programs that, that allows game management, game hunting to continue. KD: I have a question. Now earlier you said that you guys get federal grants \[unclear\]. Is that, um, public access to figure out who the donations were from? Because how I looking at this is, um, some of the donations that can be done – we can do it \[unclear\]. \[Unclear\]... ?: Actually, I don’t know of any donations that have gone towards... KD: Because that’s \[unclear\] earlier you said a lot of \[unclear\] so it’s just that sometimes I just like hear, you know, \[unclear\] of situations, so we can go back and forth on this situation but sometimes \[unclear\] like anything else that have stipulations and guidelines that we have to follow. So, is it public access where we can figure out way \[unclear\] what branch you guys, you 21 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 know, ask about or Aquatic? \[Unclear\] with that, you know, state that we can figure OK, OK, you guys grant \[unclear\] this – that right here is only deals with this. JC: Sure. Sure, that’s... KD: \[Unclear\] donation parts, you know... I can see and I not going saying \[unclear\] Nature Conservancy on this and \[unclear\] and every meeting I go to I see a lot of the workers, there, you know, they don’t participate. JC: Yeah, they don’t give much donations but we do partner with \[unclear\]. KD: But that’s the whole situation – I know how they work – I know that whole system and that’s \[unclear\]. So that’s why \[unclear\] how the decision \[unclear\] I just see how the money’s spent \[unclear\] so if we can get that kind of statements or records showing \[unclear\]. ?: I got a quick comment or just, I guess, a question. So, I mean, it’s pretty obvious U.S. Fish & Wildlife won’t give us the time of day. They’re supposed to be here tonight – no show. How can we instill the help of the state to maybe, ah, encourage them to come and – my five years of being on this commission is almost up. I’ve been asking for them to come for five years and I have yet to see a U.S. Fish & Wildlife person sit right there where you’re sitting. It’s one excuse after the next and you know what they say about excuses. So... How can we get some help, maybe, to influence these buys to just come here and talk to us – answer some questions? I’ve had questions as simple as, you know how does a species be considered to get on the endangered species list, I mean, what’s the – what does it take for – to get on – to put it on like the i’iwi. JC: Yeah. ?: I’iwis in all our forest but yet they still want to put it on, right? That’s gonna get the last nail in the coffin – that going finish the rest of the forest up, you know? They have, they have no respect for the people. For the people out there who are honest – we just the people here talking for them and, and it’s pretty obvious – it’s pretty blatant, you know, is there a way that you might be able to get some state, you know, little bit back up on this when we ask, eh, what are you gonna do and talk to them, I mean, I don’t know. I mean and it’s the same thing that Dr. Singer was saying, you know, we can talk, talk, talk, but nobody listen, right? And \[unclear\] – it’s not nobody listens – you really listen \[unclear\] they’re really, honestly, that’s my feeling is that they really do not – there is no care for the resident or the people who live in the communities, it’s all about their mission. Is there a way to get some help? Maybe one quick phone call to the guy and say what’s going on, you know? We, I mean, can I talk about this a little bit? We 22 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 changed the meeting – we had somebody else that was scheduled to be here along with you guys and we changed it – I’m just gonna say... JC: They’ll be here next month. ?: Yeah, they’ve been saying this for five years – we’ll be here next month. That’s why I’m saying, we changed this meeting because we offered them th next month – they said, oh, no, we can come on the 26 - we cannot th come on the 24 of October, OK, change, cancelled out the other lady, lady, right? NP: Springer came... ?: Ah, yeah, Springer – they was gonna speak to us – she was happy enough to say, OK, I’ll postpone it till next month – wait until the day after the agenda comes out – then send one trashy email saying, oh, sorry, but we’re not coming when I know that they knew they weren’t coming already from weeks ago cause a little bird told me that they weren’t coming and, I mean, this is the kind of respect they have for us. So how, how, how would they expect us to respect them anymore, you know, we just have some simple questions about their rodenticide... Can’t get no answers. NP: On the subject of rodenticides... ?: Mmm? NP: As far as your weight – in your job – your position expertise, ah, your responsibility – can you, um, hold the line and say, no, we don’t want rodenticide anywhere near these game animals because they might eat it and their meat will get poisoned and we manage these game animals. Will you be able to hold any line on that? JC: Ah, we need to do the experiments and find out. NP: Are you more like advisory like us? JC: Yeah, well this particular, ah, tests, experiment that they’re doing is federally funded on federal lands. NP: Correct. That’s not state – I understand that, but... JC: But... But... NP: If it did become an issue... 23 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 JC: We – there’s a large lack of knowledge, um, and we need to have some answers so that we can make the best management decision that we can – so we need to be able to fill these knowledge gaps and in order to do that you need to do some small experimentation. NP: But, but... JC: But totally limiting – we don’t want to put any public at risk – we want \[unclear\] sure that’s all taken care of... NP: Yeah. JC: ....very good answers... NP: Of course, there’s the risk question that, that’s a big question... JC: Yeah... NP: ....what one person calls a risk another may not... ?: Do you know what the active ingredient is on – in the rodenticide that they’re planning on using? JC: Fazinol \[sp?\]... ?: Fazinol \[sp?\] – it’s like one those... NP: Cumulatives in the liver... ?: Right... So they’re – and I just find it pretty hard to believe that they’re \[unclear\] warning in the studies on this... ?: And that’s not even available for public... JC: But there... They gave me their, ah... ?: Yeah, exactly... \[Unclear\] JC: \[Unclear\] because we really, I mean, that is something that we want them to come here and... ?: Right... JC: ....and address with you because we need you on board so that we can get this, right, ah, \[sounds like PDS\] so we can know how and where we can... 24 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 ?: Right... JC: ....use these... ?: Maybe they can call Kamehameha Schools and ask them how they did it in Ka’u \[unclear\] about ten years ago with that... JC: Yeah, no, I’ll... ?: OK. Thirteen – thirteen years ago. JC: \[Unclear\] and we learned a lot from that tragic experience. KC: Exactly, so how much more do we have to learn is my question, right? NP: Yup. TL: Richard, you had a question – go to the microphone... RH: The person you’re asking for the answer for – find out who they work for and go ask them for it – if it doesn’t work – find out who that person works for. Ultimately, the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service you’re probably going to wind up going to the regional office in Oregon – I think it’s Robin Thurson \[sp?\], I believe, is the acting director. When I write to that person, I get a response – so we may have to do that. ?: Thank you. NP: I do, I do want to thank you two for coming and really appreciate, you know, you taking the flack. I understand you’re not the ones on the top and you’re in \[unclear\]. TL: That brings up a couple and hang on one second – that brings up and Dr. here’s I want to have a question for you, too, but before Dr. Singer, you know, we were looking at you as an advocate for our game mammals – in other words somebody who \[unclear\] no, we need to take care of our game, yeah, we have these other \[unclear\], these other, um, pressures that are on our game and, um, but we want to advocate for – this is what we’re looking for in, in a program manager or \[unclear\]. Or at least, that’s what I’m looking for. Somebody who’s gonna stand up for our game and say, you know what – they have value, and, um, and, you know, they do belong in our forests, ah, we need to manage them and, um, along and there’s a couple other questions I have along with that but along those lines, I \[unclear\] have to think about that for a second I’ll have Sid Singer ask his question and then we can go back to that. 25 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 DS: Actually, it’s more of comment and, um, a suggestion of what we might be able to do to get the feds more involved, um, I’ve read that if you can get on a local level – the county – to develop and environmental plan in writing, you can then ask the feds to coordinate with that plan and they are required to do that, ah, and coordination can actually stop a lot of federal projects, if the local community doesn’t want it – that’s been done before. Like if they wanted to put a pipeline through a certain town and the town came up with a legitimate written environmental plan, ah, they then ask the government for coordination with that – the feds have to coordinate and they stopped it from being built in their town. So I suggest that the county – we should look into that whole coordination is the key word – getting the feds to coordinate with the written, um, county environmental plan and if that plan includes game management and you want to protect the game – then they have to work with you on that. Now the question is if they’re doing it on federal land – do they have to coordinate if it’s just federal – but I think they have to prove that – if they’re putting, um, \[unclear\] rodenticide on federal land that no animal is going to leave that and go on to county land or state land, um, and that’s gonna be hard to guarantee – so there is a crossover and I’m just encouraging, um, you look into that, cause that kind of a plan could bring them to the table, they have to coordinate – they can’t just ignore you. TL: I’d have to get more information – that would be something that \[unclear\] can do, I’m sure, um, well, back to you on advocate for us. Um, and, ah, in working, you know, your approach to, you know, game management and the environment, you know, and just – we’ve been trying to promote an integrated management plan where, you know, our game, our game is managed along with our endangered species and other threatened species \[unclear\] together so that, you know, they are doing studies – I can understand that’s some of the things that you have specialty in, am I correct? SH: So I guess the things that I really that are important from my very, very limited find here, um, is basically more accurate and when I say they’re not the specific order, I’m just naming them – more accurate and more vigorous data collection so what’s out there, what do we have – is one thing – and not only that – what is being harvested – how many hunters are out there actually actively hunting and what are they harvesting and with that I’m – as James mentioned we – we’re planning to work on, um, \[unclear\] I’ve been working on kind of a survey – it’s, ah, it’s based on the survey from the past but I added a number of questions to it and I updated \[unclear\] hopefully send to the hunters to forward for their answers and also we kind of started looking at potentially changing the checking station – not changing the checking stations \[unclear\] but adding it another section to that which is maybe coming – designing an application so that 26 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 hunters can use that on their \[unclear\] so data collection – I think it’s very important and I have, ah, extensive research background, um, not, not specifically – not \[unclear\] but it’s, you know, it’s other cases, um, is that – does that answer your question? TL: It’s on its way to an answer, um, we had a game management plan that, um, we were \[unclear\] some point here – the commission was going to take a look at, but when it was put together, ah, Dick Hoeflinger – who actually put it together, um, went out and got information from hunters around the island as to – cause we didn’t have numbers – we didn’t know where game was – where they’ll actually be found or, or what have you and, um, so he actually went out and had hunters give him, you know, what they thought, I mean, this is just, yeah, they can – there’s a lot of game here, you know, \[unclear\] numbers are but you see more game here than you do here and so forth, um, those are – it’s where – it seems like, you know, there is some strength in the observations. Are those areas that you’re gonna actually try and go out and have people do actual censuses and so forth – in those areas? SH: That is exactly how we are going to do this. I’m still working on it – I still need a lot more information than what I have right now to be able to answer that question – I need \[unclear\] and it also depends which island and whether it’s the Big Island or other island. So it just really depends but, um, for just, just as an example the application that we’re talking about can be used by hunters, so if the hunter is walking and he or she sees and animal – a game animal – they can put that in the application already and count – like if that’s a count – basically the idea is to have hunters be the conservation biologist going out there and collecting the data \[unclear\] – that’s one of the really great ways of, you know, having the hunting community be involved in the work that we’re doing and also helping us to come up with any counter \[unclear\] or distribution \[unclear\]. ?: You know, with, with that idea – that’s a great idea but how are you gonna convince the hunters that this data is gonna go to some good for our animals? I mean, this is the reality of it – our animals are being removed quicker than we can get out there in the mountain. Fences are being built, I mean, you see it – they put ‘em on the TV, you know, these animals is the worst thing that ever happened to our forests – blah, blah, blah. They don’t mention the one million houses in \[sounds like Hokuahu\] on all the places where there used to be forest. So how, I mean, this is not question, I’m sorry, I, this is a suggestion, I mean, you need to figure out – how are you gonna convince me to tell you, yeah, I saw three sheep over here – when I know that as soon as we say there’s 10 sheep in this area – the Margories are gonna be over there waiting to sue the state because it’s too much eating one plant. I mean, that, I mean, that is something to think 27 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 about basically – how do you convince the hunters that we’re gonna be able to help. TL: Have a question that you want to add to that? ?: No, I want to give Willie-Joe of how that really works. Ah, I have three boys who are commercial fishermen. They’ve been fishing for 20 years off California. The commercial fishermen have to report their catch and they have to report where they got the catch. So all those data are accumulated. How do you think the environmentalists determine where they want to put an MPA – Marine Protected Area? That’s exactly and that is exactly what they do – that’s how the MPA – they get the data for the MPA from the fisherman and then they close the area to fishing, And that addresses the question you brought up – why would I want to share any information with DLNR – cause I don’t trust DLNR – and you’re getting the benefit for long years of a lot of people being very unhappy. Nothing against you and nothing against Jim but that’s, that’s the reality – that’s the history and it’s sad. It’s just really sad. JB: Well, Tom, if I could say something –Jonathan from Kona. TL: Yes, sir... JB: Um, yeah, Mr. Cogswell and Dr. Honarvar – thank you so much for coming, ah, they do bring up some really good points, ah, unfortunately hunters may not want to tell you what they’ve seen or, you know, I, because the more animals we see out there they’re gonna feel like the limits will be cut or, you know, something negative will affect us. But, I just do have a request, um, you know, I, I’m fairly new to this – I don’t know as much as I should and as a lot of these other commissioners but I do know that I’m here for my four kids and my grandchild and, ah, I want to be able to hunt. I’ve had the most amazing times and my wife and my children hunting and met wonderful people – I just, I just ask, ah, that in your jobs if, ah, if there’s a way you can help us promote that – that’s, that’s why we’re all here and, ah, just thank you so much for whatever you can do to help the humans on this, you know, island so we can continue to hunt and enjoy that – I think it’s an amazing thing to do with your family and God’s given it to us and it really, um, I, if you guys have not experienced something please, please experience. Go with people, it’s pretty cool. Thank you. TL: I wanted to, ah, \[unclear\] but, you know, I gave you this resolution – this concurrent resolution and, ah, this is, you know, the House and Senate, you know, saying that, um, they want to utilize and make sure that, um, th the 28 Legislature, I think, whatever it was, that they urged a conservation development and utilization of game mammal, game bird, 28 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 and fishing resources, um, to be recognized – also the \[unclear\] introduction of things like the pig, for example, ah, which as, um, Dr. Singer’s mentioned, you know, recently has been educated as being, ah, one of our original introductions here and, so, you know, and along with that, um, you know, if the ‘io is – started off the ‘io – the pueo is endemic, um, and some of the blood samples I think you’re gonna find that our sheep especially are unique to Hawaii, ah, I know that, ah, they have said that our goat is absolutely – the smaller one – are absolutely unique, ah, to Hawaii – so they have, you know, special status and, um, but they Legislature, um, says that they recognize \[unclear\] introduction – such as the pig – later sustainability introductions – and you ask that we have 11,000 hunters here. We have 11,000 licenses, um, here, um, and I’m not trying to rat on anybody but, um, there is much more hunting that goes on, um, here that may not actually have a license. I’m sorry? ?: \[Not speaking in mic\] TL: Probably, at least... And... ?: \[Not speaking in mic\] TL: OK. Um, we’ll use the factor of two – so you’re looking at 20 – 22,000 people that game has become a part of their economy, you know, it’s just everybody gets a pay check but, you know, you still need this hunting and fishing and other resources – there are people that I know of every week are going out and either hunting or fishing – sometimes both, um, just, you know, for sustainability, ah, here on the Big Island \[unclear\] Molokai they say it’s 40% of all their, um, meals are subject to, you know, sustainability resources, so, how does this enter our game management plan? Um, does this, I mean, this says to you at DLNR to create a food, um, sustainability and food security to utilize our game animals as part of that and so, how does this enter into \[unclear\] and maybe you haven’t thought about this yet – but, ah, how would you address something like this – having one side saying no they’re no good – we don’t want any part of these animals and we have the Legislature saying, oh, no, they are good – you know – they feed people – we want them part of our food sustainability and, um, and we’ve seen it during a hurricane on this island, ah, people who were fed through game and fishing, ah, that they weren’t able to get from else, otherwise, so it – there are, there are – I mean, there’s some history about, you know, how important this is, so anyway, that was \[unclear\]. SH: I’m just going to say, ah, I just want to say I have been here very, very short time so I have \[unclear\]. 29 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 JC: No, I think that’s absolutely our whole, ah, program is, is making sure that, that we have that sustainable source of subsistence food for people, um, and they only way that we can show, I mean, like you always say – we need the evidence that says that these animals are not the villains they’re said to be – that they can be managed in a way on, on the landscape to live separate, perhaps, but in harmony in the landscape, ah, with, with the other management goals of the land. So, absolutely, the, the goal of our hunting program is to make sure that, that is – that’s their priority. They have no other priority – the game people – each island has game biologists and their whole job is to make sure that, that the game takes priority in every work that they do and sustainability, subsistence – it’s very well understood that this is what we have and we’re, we’re – will do, so, I have no doubt. TL: Um, \[sounds like - catch for effort\] I think it was or maybe I think it was you – you know in some of these areas that they do, ah, eradications like in the \[unclear – sounds like NARS\] areas and some of these other fenced areas – hunters will go in there and they’ll go in with their dogs and they’ll spend, you know, sometimes two or three days and not be able to find a \[sounds like pinning\] and, um, so that’s a catch for effort issue in my opinion, yet now you have a situation where, you know, the catch for effort is – there is no catch for effort and so they pull out. When they do pull out then the state goes in, you know, first usually with, ah, staff hunters and then they’ll go in usually with snares and we’re talking – I know that you guys have talked about all sorts or other nefarious means of getting rid of these animals in there but, ah, is there a way that in your game management – that in areas like \[sounds like NARS\], I mean, some of these fenced areas which, um, the game is so limited now, you know, because of the hunting that has gone on – that they just leave it alone until they can say, well, now the numbers are back up again, ah, rather than just going into a snaring program or a staff hunting program. JC: I think in terms of the NARS and those specific areas, um, I don’t think there’s much chance of that. I think, because it costs so much, I mean, the purpose of that is to be game mammal free, so, in order to do that, if, we submerge so many resources, I mean, including the volunteer hours of the hunters to go in there – that if we ever let it slip back – what would be the purpose of that? TL: I understand that – you have all these other thousands of acres that are being fenced, ah, that are not NARS, and – 12,000, I think – 500 acres out in Ka’u, for example, that are gonna be fenced and we have another 5,000 acres at, er, I think it was \[unclear\]. ?: \[Unclear\] 30 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 TL: Twenty-five hundred acres, um, that is out there and, so, you have these vast areas that are just – and they’re going up everywhere: Puuwaawaa and a lot of other areas that, um, you do have influence in, in those programs to say, look, they go in with their dogs and they’re not catching anything, as far as we’re concerned then pau for now and... JC: Sure, depending on what the land classification and the primary objective of that parcel is. We could talk about that and we’ve got, ah, we’re working with – we’re trying to get a, an island-wide strategy for conservation and management of the landscape and in it are layers for hunting – high priority – medium – lower priority and, and no priority for the NARS, for example, um, and these, these are areas that we can manage according to those, those concepts and where it is considered and we’ll have defined management strategies within each of those categories and if that area is within an area that is a moderate to high hunting priority, then, then yes, we can discuss with the – then that’s \[unclear\]. TL: Well, hunting ought to be a priority regardless... JC: It’s priority statewide, absolutely, but there’s parcels where there are other priorities, other resources, um, perhaps hunting is better prioritized in another area more accessible, um, fewer clashes with endangered species – that kind of thing. TL: I, I – you take into consideration all of the – like the national park – a lot of these, you know, other partnerships that you’re involved in – the watershed partnership, ah, when you look at the overall picture of where, where game should be because when you start adding up all of these acres, um, when we talk about the 700,000 acres that you’ve heard before from us, ah, it’s really not – it’s probably 100,000 acres, if that, maybe, and, ah, and out of that a lot of it is still being fenced off and, so, in order to preserve some of the game that, that we have in some of these areas, ah, if she’s gonna be involved in, um, helping with the planning for these areas \[unclear\] and say look we don’t want to eradicate stuff in here but we do want it, remove it, we want hunters to go in and, you know, at a certain threshold, um, you know, pau already and then the game that goes back will go back in again and that’s, that’s kind of the thing that we would like to see when we talk about management. \[Unclear\]? JC: Ah... It makes sense. It could be possible where appropriate, I don’t see any \[unclear\]. TL: You know, that word always comes up. JC: I know... It does... 31 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 TL: Where appropriate, um... JC: Because there are appropriate places and there are not appropriate places, I’m sorry... DY: So, James, ah, can you help me with this? Who in Forestry can we talk to about the language that we use? JC: Ah, the first place to start would be the District Foresters here on West Hawaii and Hilo... DY: OK. Assuming that he, um, and I’m not saying he does or doesn’t but assuming that he shares the definition of say “conservation.” Who above him do we talk to? You know, let’s say we want to change these definitions... JC: So the person above the District Forrester is then the Branch Manager and, ah, and I think he’s also a big advocate on your behalf and they – he’s very strong and then they are right under the administrator and that’s, that’s the level you need to... DY: So who’s the guy in charge of all this...? JC: The guy in charge of everything... DY: Well, we talked to him already... JC: Yeah, and he understands... DY: Yeah. JC: He’s the one we can – he along with the Branch Managers – they’re designing this management plan for the island-wide and that will take care of – that will be able to guarantee to the conservationists that there are areas sufficient, set-aside for all the endangered species they could want and, or... DY: So, so, can you, can you not use that word conservation as in, in that sense but use it in the other sense, which is, you know, responsible use. JC: Yeah. So all the other lands we can use and the conservation useable game management’s hunting areas. DY: OK. So if we talk to Dave Smith about the change in the definitions of the word conservation from preservation to responsible use or, or is he already there. 32 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 JC: He’s... I’m sure he already understands the terms. DY: OK. ?: \[Not speaking in mic\] JC: \[Unclear\] would be Chair Case. ?: \[Unclear\] TL: Um, you mentioned earlier, also, about, um, not being able to make changes through game bag numbers, I think, or something like that – along one of those lines and, ah, you know, we’ve been trying for a long time to give you that opportunity and, um, we’d also like to have an opportunity to change some of the rules, that are, that are out there right now, um, see him getting hot, hmm? JC: I hear where this is going... TL: \[Unclear\] expected. Um, so, we would like to and you offered to have people, um, start working on this, so, my question there is, I guess, I very much would like to see that get started, ah, it’s been, um, seven or eight years since we’ve had this, ah, change or things that we’ve asked to have change and we would like to get them going, so we don’t have another HCP on our hands. JC: Um, yes, ah, that’s, that’s great – we’re ready to do it – I just, ah, hired – an emergency hire planner to take that exact issue and start working with us on rule creation, um, and rule amendments, so, \[unclear\] suggestions one more time and, and we’ll work with you, um, the game commission is can be up and running as soon as those commissioners are appointed by the Governor, um, and we can work very closely with them getting the word out to the other islands on what’s necessary. I’m gonna get field consensus before we put out the plan – go to public meeting and get shot down by everything, um, and we really need to work – work and thinking along with the commission on how to get – make that process less painful for everybody and to make sure that we can get those changes necessary changed quickly, so it’s not a – right now, I think everybody thinks of rule changes and they start to get worried, oh, another two years of negotiations back and forth... TL: Or eight years... JC: Or eight years, exactly, exactly – but that’s crazy. It shouldn’t take that long – we’re not talking big changes – we’re talking a caliber here and a 33 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 caliber there – open up this area – close that area, I mean, every time they get a new forest reserve, basically, we need to be changing those rules. TL: On, on that – is that an administrative \[unclear\] give you the ability to change bag limits and things like those – is that an administrative rules process or is that something that needs to go legislatively? JC: It’s currently administrative rules process. It could be and should be brought down to a delegation from somebody. TL: Like the Game Commission, for example \[unclear\]... JC: I would say to the Branch Manager... TL: But you don’t have, you don’t have the ability right now to make changes – you bag limits and what have you on the fly... JC: No. Not on the fly... Not without a rule change and that needs to go to... TL: OK, so, does that rule change – is that something that can be done through administrative rules or is this something that needs to be done legislatively... JC: Administratively. TL: It can be done through administrative rules, OK... Um, you know, I’ve a thousand more questions but, ah, I think we’re close to the point of, um... JC: And you might want to bring up the Game Management Plan. TL: Yes, I do. I want to bring up the Game Management Plan, actually, thank you. JC: OK. Yeah. The Game Management Plan is ready for to be brought back to the working group... TL: Um-hum... JC: ....so, if I can get names of the working group we can settle it with a couple of DLNR people – maybe Kanalu – Joey, I don’t know – um, get a group together – we can give them the plan that we have, ah, I think it’s a great plan – it’s got statewide goals, it’s got... TL: Um-hum... 34 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 JC: ....it’s got a great history, um, I \[unclear\] know how familiar everybody is with the plan, but, it... TL: Nobody has seen it except those that worked on it. JC: \[Unclear\] goals, I mean, it’s got some, some great statewide goals of, ah, having a viable and efficient game management program – which we could use everyone’s help... TL: Um-hum... JC: ....legislator tried to make sure that our positions are guaranteed – permanent positions and that they’re adequately funded, ah, public engagement in game management – we’ve talked about that – needs to be more – Shaya’s talked about that, ah, effective communication and outreach programs, I mean, is something that we can do for all islands... TL: Um-hum... JC: ....and all, and it’s – it can only help, um, improvement – hunter improvement and retention, so, if you’ve got ways to really recruitment more of the younger hunters... TL: And older... Are you going to support our, ah, Families Afield next year? JC: How do you mean support? TL: Well, ah, Families Afield got shot down this year and we would like to – we are gonna re-introduce it, ah, and the issue there was they wanted only younger hunters... JC: Oh... TL: ....and they didn’t want anybody older... JC: \[Unclear\] hunters? TL: Yeah, and, yet the Hunter Ed program has learned at their last conference that older hunters are really who they need to be addressing, which is what we tried to do, so, if we can count on your support for that it would be great. JC: Yeah. TL: OK. 35 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 JC: \[Unclear\] ?: Speaking of Hunter Ed, sorry, who do they fall under? JC: They fall under DOCARE. And Andrew \[unclear\], um, which is interesting, yeah. I think it’s cause they’re dealing with game bags. ?: Yeah, yeah. Because there are, I mean, there’s usually a waiting list of people wanting to take the courses and there’s no courses. JC: Oh, actually they just – this month they just, ah, went online with, with a good portion of that Hunter Ed course – so you can go online and take it. ?: OK. JC: Um, there’s still a hands-on, classroom session, but it’s not half as complicated and long – four hours – so... ?: Very good. JC: So that’s – that’s \[unclear\]. ?: Does that mean public and all or? JC: Yeah, yeah. There’s a... ?: Oh, sorry, I must have \[unclear\]. JC: \[Unclear\] ?: \[Unclear\] one vacation. I didn’t get that memo. TL: Shaya, do you have a hunting license? SH: \[Unclear\] TL: Excellent. JC: Other, other things that are in this plan is, ah, how to – different ways to improve the statutes that effect game management and hunting, perform administrative hunting rules – looking good – make that more efficient – re-focus Hunter Education program, ah, and then a couple state – still statewide goals \[unclear\] um, and then for the Hawaii Island specific goals and plans to, um, better quantify \[unclear\] game species quantitatively defined, so you know how much is out there, at least a good index of, ah, and, ah, and to have the hunting land resources 36 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 accurately characterized so that people know, that when they come to Hawaii Island where to go – like over there what am I gonna encounter – what kind of environment – what kind of species – what, you know, \[unclear\] so all these are goals that are already pretty defined in the, in the hunting plan and we, we can go – we need to concentrate on updating these – making sure they’re accurate, ah, it’s still a lot gaps in like characterizing the different hunting lands that are available and here – the better we characterize those the better you can help us – the better we can say this is not adequate hunting land here because look at that characteristic – there’s nothing there – whereas this area is good – this is more what we’re looking for and then we can so, so we need to get that back out to you – to this hunting, working group to... TL: Yeah, hunter working group and also you had promised the commission also, um, a copy of it to review. JC: Yeah. TL: That, that was the question Ike asked you a year ago and you promised them that you would get it to him so... ?: \[Not speaking in mic\] TL: Sorry? ?: \[Not talking in mic\] JC: \[Unclear\] we got that... TL: Is that a PowerPoint you were looking in right there? Is it something you could share with us later? JC: Ah, sure... TL: OK. Um, I’m gonna have – does anybody here have any? Jonathan you have any? JB: No. I’m good. Thank you. TL: And, um, I wanted to thank you both and I, you know, very happy to have finally met you, um, and we look forward to working with you and, you know, ah, when is this commission coming about, do you know? JC: Commission, ah, the Game Management... TL: The \[unclear\] Game Commission, yeah. 37 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 JC: Um, I, I tried to touch base with Kekoa today to see if there’s any updates from the Governor – the last I spoke to them maybe a week and a half ago... TL: \[Unclear\] close the... JC: Yeah... TL: ....recruitment. JC: He, he’s pushing... Yeah. TL: ....at \[unclear\] point and then \[unclear\]. JC: Pushing to make sure the Governor keeps at it – on the top of his pile of – so hopefully, that’ll be sooner than later. \[Unclear\] TL: I mean, for myself, I’d like to see that thing getting started as soon as possible. JC: Yeah, no... TL: On the road by the time the Legislature starts... JC: \[Unclear\], I mean, yeah, the rule change – I don’t want to try to do it without them... TL: Right... DY: Ah, James, could you remind Kekoa that he promised us that he would come talk story with us, and, and he said something like he would do it regularly and that’s when he first came into office and frankly I haven’t seen him, except on TV. So, if you could kind of remind him – find out... JC: OK. TL: OK, well, time again, I want to thank you very much for joining us, ah, it’s been a pleasure, um, you know, it’s we look forward to working with you – we look forward to be working the commission, um, when they start working with you, as well, and, um, we hope that there’s some \[unclear\] and Willie-Joe has brought up, you know, it just, ah, there’s been a long history of declining game and, ah, \[unclear\] we have \[unclear\], ah, \[unclear\] the HCP, you know, ah, any idea on the CIS thing? 38 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 JC: It’s not a lawsuit – it’s just challenging the ES – just someone stating that the EA was not sufficient – it’s got some valid points. TL: Any push back for you folks on that? JC: Ah, no, we \[unclear\]. So, we do have some funding for it and \[unclear\], yeah. TL: So all the data that you have right now the EIS should take \[unclear\]? JC: Right, yeah, it’s, yeah, we need to look more at the impacts on the non- invasive species \[unclear\]. We’ve been took focused on the endangered species. VIII. NEW BUSINESS TL: OK. All right. Well I do appreciate your coming here so, um, with that – any New Business? Anybody Committee reports? IX. COMMITTEE REPORTS B: I apologize – actually someone – since Nora wasn’t here – someone left the agendas as well as the minutes and the budgetary information here and I passed them out as Dr. Singer was, um, was, um, doing his presentation. X. COMMISSIONERS REPORT BY DISTRICT TL: OK. Any commissioner reports? ?: \[Not speaking in the mic\] XI. NEXT MEETING DATE: October 24, 2016 TL: October 24, 2016, is gonna be our next meeting and... ?: Excuse me, excuse me. We have some Old Business – our section on Old Business. I’d like to suggest that for the next meeting that we, um, try to adopt some rules. TL: I thought we adopted the rules, did we not? B: Yes, we did. DY: We adopted them. 39 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 B: Right. DY: Oh, OK. TL: Last meeting or the meeting before... ?: \[Not speaking in mic\] DY: OK. If we did then I stand corrected. TL: \[Unclear\] we adopted them. DY: Thank you very much. BK: You guys were in the meeting... TL: OK. Any other business, anybody? Otherwise 8:37p... BC: Hold on, Tom, Tom – this is Bobby Command – I just wanted to remind you that you have three openings that you need to fill and hopefully, ah, you guys go out and recruit people that you think are able to fit in for the council – or the commission. TL: Right. \[Unclear\] has agreed to be a commissioner wasn’t able to make it this evening because of a back injury, ah, from Holualoa District 7, um, and I’ll, I’ll talk to you about that, um, we are, in fact, gonna be working with, um, some other people going around the island, um, having a commissioner’s meeting here over the next month and hopefully we’ll be able to, um, stimulate some interest that way, as well. BC: Great. Just want to remind you. XII. ADJOURNMENT TL: OK. That’s the first thing on my mind. OK. So can I drop this now? OK. We’re closed 7:40 or no 7:38. ?: Eight thirty-eight... BK: Eight thirty-eight. Corrected. BC: It’s 8:38 p.m. Maybe there’s a time difference between Hilo and Kona... DY: Bobby, before you guys hang up – maybe tomorrow can you give me a call please? 40 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – September 26, 2016 BC: Um, call me. DY: You never answered my email that I sent to you like 2 months ago... BC: It was kind of a, kind of a... 41