HomeMy WebLinkAbout2015-06-22 Game Management Advisory Commission Minutes Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting
Minutes—June 22, 2015
Game Management Advisory Commission
County of Hawaii
Minutes
Meeting Date: Monday, June 22, 2015
Time: 6:32 p.m.
Place: Hawaii County Building — Council Chambers
I. CALL TO ORDER: Meeting was called to order at 6:32pm.
II. ROLL CALL: Per B. Kossow:
Willie-Joe Camara, District 1 - here
Dwayne "Ike" Yoshina, District 2 — here
Ryan Katsu — here
Naniloa Tunglen - here
Thomas H. Lodge, District 5 - here
Kenneth "Kalani" DeCoito, District 6 -here
District 7
Mark C. Bartell — District 8 — here
Jonathan Bertsch - here
District 9
Quorum established
ALSO PRESENT: Belinda Hill, Corporation Counsel
Barbara Kossow, Administrative Specialist
B. Command, Deputy Planning Director
Susan Case, Chair, DLNR
Kekoa Kulahiwa, Deputy Chair, DLNR
Scott Fretz (sp?), Temp head Wildlife Section, Maui
Steve Workflet (sp?), DLNR
Nick Agorastis, DLNR
GUESTS:
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Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting
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IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
TL: Barbara? Are you there?
BK: Yes, I am.
TL: Oh, yes, ma'am, would you be kind enough to do a roll call?
BK: Sure. Willie-Joe Camara... We are all here so it's hundred percent this
evening.
TL: Great. Allright. Thank you Barbara.
BK: We also have Belinda Hill, Corp Counsel and Bobby Command.
TL: OK. Thank you. We have a couple of announcements this evening that we
would like to share with you all. One: Ryan Kohatsu sitting here to my right
was sworn in today as another GMAC commissioner. Over in Kona we
have Jonathan Bertsch. Jonathan is a policeman right now will be retiring
and has joined the commission as well. He's gonna bring a lot to our
commission as well, yeah. I'd like to introduce them to you all and
welcome them to our commission and I expect great service from both of
them. With us this evening also are members of the DLNR. We have
Chairperson Susan Case is here; we have her deputy who disappeared
Kekoa Kuahiwa; we have some of the local members here as well. We
Scott Fretz (sp?) he's here from Maui's temporary head, I guess, of the
Wildlife section. Is that correct? And Steve Workfelt (sp?) is here. I saw
Nick Agorastis here somewhere — oh, there he is back there. I'd like to
welcome them —they're part of the staff that are maybe answering some
questions that you all may have for DLNR later as we get into the
program. I'd like to start this this evening — Ryan Kohatsu — many of you
know has been an advocate for hunting and hunting issues for quite a
while. He has a program. He's briefly going to introduce to us and kind of
set the stage for our meeting tonight so maybe I could get Ryan to head
out there and... [Tape gap]
RK: All right. Good evening everybody and I want to first thank Chair Case and
Deputy and the DLNR staff for taking their time to come out and see us
here. I hope that out of this discussion or out of this meeting we can at
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least get the idea that maybe there is an issue to be resolved, I would
hope. I know maybe some folks think, ah, we're doing fine for—we're in
this great successful phase of increasing preservation areas and all of that
— it's a big win for Hawaii but for hunters and even — I'm not getting into it
here — but even for fishermen sometimes it excludes a portion of people
that are interested in conservation as well so I hope we can get that out of
that. My presentation today— I want to make a little disclaimer out of it first
— I did it under guise that I'm not a commissioner yet because I just got
sworn in at 4:00 today so —and I originally wanted to call it "The End of
Public Game Mammal Hunting on the Big Island of Hawaii," but I thought
let's be a little bit more positive and let's talk about the future of what we're
gonna do today. But honestly, I do feel on the path that we are on —we
will see and end to public game mammal hunting on this island. And also
that the islands are very different. We go to the Legislature and we see the
differences between islands and you're not going to find generally folks
from the other islands as adamant as people on the Big Island. It seems
the hunters on the Big Island are more effected by the move of
preservation in Hawaii and I'm hoping that we can at least get that out and
get— at least some kind of consensus on that so... Here we go... My
name is Ryan Kohatsu. Most of you guys know me but I'm basically, I'm
an engineer. I used to work in energy efficiency before on the green side
of things so I've always wanted to do both things. So in the sense of I'm a
hunter but I also like bird watching. I also plant native plants before.
Maybe not so much in the DLNR side, but I've done it with private entities
and stuff. So I have an interest on both sides and I'm just hoping that I can
come at this from a more neutral stance but yes, I'll be more on the
hunting side just because I think it's a little bit more neglected. So just
[unclear]. So why are we even here is a question I wanted to ask because
if we don't think that all of these faces here and all these people show up
just for fun then we can just sit around a camp fire and talk story. We're
not gonna get anything done, anything useful. So I think maybe that you're
here because we know that we have an issue. What it is — I hope we can
get to that—whatever it is — but the typical thing we always hear when we
go to Legislature —we're in the public—from people that maybe don't hunt
here or not— or don't like hunting —we hear the thing of Big Island we
have like over 700,000 acres to publically hunt and my presentation is
geared to our public game mammals — as the title says — I forgot to
mention that— it just seems like we're not— game birds aren't as effective
right now, so I'm just going to strictly talk about mammals at this point. So
they say we have over 700,000 acres of public land to hunt and 714,000
to be exact— as the picture shows — all the red areas are all the public
hunting areas that doesn't have private or anything like that and that's —
I'm not talking about private today. And the other thing is what are the
hunters even complaining about. Anybody that doesn't live here can just
drive up Saddle Road, look on the side of the road in Hawaiian
Homelands and see all of those sheep that are depicted in the picture and
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you'd be like, "What are these guys complaining about? We've got
thousands of sheep running all over the place." And honestly, if they did a
little bit of homework and digging they would know that, that's not a public
hunting area. You can't hunt on DHHL land. That whole system of animals
came there because of no hunting program. Everywhere else has fences,
everywhere else is a hunting area. So there's all these things that if you
talk to locals here —they would know what the issue is — but if you just ask
some guy on the street that doesn't know anything about it, you know, eh,
what we're here for—what this guy complaining — so just so we don't look
like a bunch dummies complaining here about nothing — I just wanted to
use that picture as an example that, you know, maybe what people see is
not always the whole picture. So I want to try and explain it from maybe a
different point of view there. The next slide... So I want to save everyone a
whole bunch of time. I made around a nine minute video, ten minute
video. It's on You Tube — everyone's — lot of people have probably seen it
but it's basically explaining how that 700,000 acres of hunting land is not
really 700,000 acres that I can keep game mammals on. So we went from
the first picture —you saw the red hunting areas —and then now I've laid
over all of the plans that affect those hunting areas and, you know, to be
honest my data isn't fully complete. I'm missing a whole lot of fenced
areas in there — but just to go over it really quickly and you can — I'll just
reference the video as a thing to explain how I got to this point— but the
red areas being the priority one and two watershed areas —designated
under The Rainfall of the Forest Plan now of which one of the main
priorities is to rid of ungulates in these areas —the blue being the Palila
Critical Habitat— if people don't know what that is then you haven't been
hunting for long. The purple being the Natural Area Reserve Systems — I
know some people like to say that yes, we do currently hunt in the NARS
area but it's not a long term or future hunting area for game mammals I-
the intent of the system is to get rid of them — I'm not against or for it—
whatever it is —what it is —we just need to lay that truth out there and
we're not working with that when we talk about sustain hunting areas.
Orange being some of the fenced areas of Pohakuloa. That's to satisfy the
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service biological [unclear] so that they can
continue operating in the presence of endangered species — grey being
Kipuka Aina Hou is kind of— I don't know if everyone can see it— but it's
kind of in this area — and that's designated out of the Department of
Hawaiian Homelands Aina Mauna Legacy Plan which designates that as
an R4 or Native Forest Protection Region. I don't know exactly what it's
called but all I know is it means no ungulates there —eventually— or game
mammals. Black being some of the larger lava flows up on Mauna Loa
where it's just poor habitat to keep any game. And then, of course, the
magenta, which is very tiny, but you can see 'em over in Puuwaawaa and
this section. Some of the fenced areas of Puuwaawaa it's missing the
Forest Bird Sanctuary, which would have been here — but my original map
didn't mark that as a hunting area and it hasn't been for a little while— now
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1 believe they're got most of the animals out of there. So these are the
places — can't keep animals —we can debate that or you can watch my
video. So we can see that we cut it down significantly to where I can keep
any sheep, goats, pigs or anything like that. So what we got left is
basically, you know, the Kau Forest Reserve in this section — Puuanahulu
— portions of Puuwaawaa — and all these pieces — portions of Pohakuloa
and Keaumoku is missing here — but it's really not the 700,000 acres that
everyone's talking about and saying why are we complaining. So... And
inside the video I've got a history of things that are happening in those
remaining areas and we're not— even those things are facing maybe
opposition or sometimes just not getting done. I know, I know I see some
familiar faces with HCP and Puuwaawaa here and, yeah, I believe the
State's side is gone but maybe the Fed side is a little bit holding up. I don't
know— but we — if this is all we're left with — can we find ways to keep our
animals here? Just even at the minimum? And right now the answer would
be, "no," they kind of exist by accident, I think. Moving on, so... What I
wanted to get out of that was looking at that map — at that picture — is that
a problem? Is that even a problem? Because when — it depends who you
ask, right? If you ask someone that's more preservation oriented and
worried about every endangered species or native tree then you [unclear]
but that's a huge success. We got all this land to do all this great stuff. But
if you look at a person that hunts or maybe kind of wants like a mixed use
thing where people are involved and inside of the land instead of perhaps
more excluded out of it— it's kind of a loss— so we got to ask— and this is
the thing I wanted out of the Department was — should the Big Island even
have a sustainable public mammal hunting system? And if we are, where
and how, because at this moment we don't have that and people can
disagree — but I think my subsequent slides after this will explain that. And
I took a picture out of our recent Hilo Hunter Education Class that we did
just last week. I believe there sixty, high sixties amount of people taking
the class. We usually have classes that big — over sixty all the time —we
do six a year— and a lot of folks will say it's because of—they want their
firearm permits to acquire hand guns — and we generally ask that question
— and we're finding is a lot of them are there to go hunting — and I see a
familiar face with the AKW shirt, you know, he was in the class, in fact he's
right there — but they're there to go hunting and it's really— as a volunteer
instructor—while I'm looking at the map and those things occurring — it's
very discouraging for me to look at the children's faces in there that want
to go hunting with their fathers, their mothers and their families and
knowing in the back of my head, well, they're here for almost nothing.
Right? There will be very little place for them left if we don't kind of think of
how we're going to keep these things. So I just hope that we can identify
that this is a problem because it just depends who you ask. And, now I'm
kind of going a little bit more personal side of it — I believe the problem is a
bit systemic in that we have this battle— and some people don't think so —
but— between this idea of conservation versus preservation. Conservation
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being the wise use of resources and preservation being the non-use or
more the intrinsic value of resources that we keep them, you know,
essentially fenced and I'm not against either— I believe both are important
and I want to just make that disclaimer here — but I think we're neglecting
sometimes the wise use portion of it—that— and um —those illustrations
we'll get to it— so my vision and my thinking — and I'm not talking of this as
a commissioner— it's just a personal view— I only want to be — I'll be
accountable for anything I say on these things you can fact check it all.
But my personal connection to the natural is hunting, fishing, and those
things. It's a gathering side of things — and I just feel that— I think we
should be looking at protecting every personal connection to that natural
world because as we modernize and people live closer and closer to
urban centers they're gonna care less about these natural areas. You can
tell 'em on TV and stuff, but it doesn't have the same effect as these
people all right here. All of these people right here that enjoy the lands that
are out there —they can be your allies in better conservation and
protecting these things — so, and I, 1 bring up the next point which is that
DLNR having less than 1% of the State budget— and is that even
surprising because if you think about it—we're not engaging all of these
people that actually care. We're kind of neglecting them — in a sense. I'm
getting to that— leading up to it here but local hunters and fishermen - we
could be the State's allies in conservation, but we're neglected. We don't
have systems like the mainland does or other regions of this country. We
don't, they just don't operate like us. So I wanted to bring it home to more
current events and the whole sea cucumber thing is one: now that right
there is totally legal to do that. There's no like law banning that or
whatever. Also, another hot topic is the community-based subsistence
fisheries. I think it's great that people care about their resources and want
to get involved — but then the bigger picture is where did this come from?
This came from a neglect of the conservation and the resources within the
Department's jurisdiction. So if we were already addressing these things
before they became problems — it wouldn't take the general public to have
to go out there and take pictures or to have to say, "Eh, I want to kapu this
place for my own fishing area because you guys aren't taking care of it."
It's just so discouraging. We shouldn't have gotten to that point. So when
we look at it and we think, "Are those things successes or are they
failures?" It depends how you look at it. To me, I think, yeah, it's a success
that people care but it's also a failure of our system. We just don't have a
system to address it and we should have been doing that years ago. But
we have an opportunity, we're all here, right? So that's my—well I'm kind
of bashing on it— I'm gonna get to some positive stuff— but, so yeah — and
the key thing here is that—does any other state operate hunting or fishing
like us, you know, we're probably the only state that doesn't have a fishing
license. Um, we have a hunting license, thank God, we have hunter
education and all this great stuff, but, you know, we just go the
administrative rules. We have tags. Maybe we have some bag limits. But
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really no other state operates on admin rules like that where we have to
change rules every seven year— it's this minimum, long, lengthy process
when Wildlife Management all these things are changing annually. I mean
they're changing dynamically and we can't adjust to that. I mean we're
stuck. No one works that way. I mean if another biologist came from
another state and looked at our hunting system they would be mind blown
—they'd probably go back home —just forget about working here. So, um,
moving on I wanted — after all that— I didn't mean to bash on what we
have but I just want to say we're all in this together and I think it's great
we see a lot of faces because we can maybe do something that has
synergies and where we all —where our strengths and the same goals
align — and I took this picture out at Puuwaawaa —this is a volunteer
program where you can see a lot of young — a lot of our younger hunters
in there and it was from your Pittman-Robertson funds to fix the road for
all users, not just hunters, not just hikers, but everyone and this is, you
know, our federal matched dollars, maybe even perhaps from our hunting
license funds — I don't know— could have been general funds— but all I
want to say is we're here —we can fix it. It isn't all about the endangered
species, hunting, fishing, or anything like that. It is about the people. And
in this picture I think you see a lot of your hunters wanting to make a
difference and if we're going to keep any hunting or fishing with us — it is
people that will make the difference. It's them caring. You can't just sit
there on TV and say oh we should do this stuff but no one's really there.
So engaging the people that actually care, I think, I don't know, I just think
that it would be a good thing. And this is, I believe this is my last slide of
the presentation — but some solutions and I guess a personal note — like
said I did this out of the idea that I wasn't a commissioner yet— so it's kind
of just speaking for myself and I don't want to speak for anyone else.
Everyone —you ask someone about game management or what we
should do—you're gonna get a hundred different answers, so, I'm just
talking for myself and I hope I can continue to work on this — but there's
some solutions. I think an area by area —examine our plans to keep game
animals wherever possible—you know those areas we had left. HCP was
one of those plans, you know, it allows for that incidental pig license.
know I'm speaking maybe Greek to some people but a lot of us —we study
this, you know, we read the plans, we try to get involved with maybe, you
know, maybe things get stuck. I don't know. Second thing being some
commitment by leadership to finding a solution if there is a problem — so
that second side where we said is, or third side where we said, "Is there
even a problem with that map and the areas left?" I think we have to admit
— is there or not? But we're not going to go anywhere if we don't think that
there's —that there's not a problem. And on our side, it's not just all the
department or our hard working DOFAW guys or anyone else— it's part of
our responsibility as sportsmen as well. We need to support out local
department to get these things done. So while we may have all differing
ideas of how we should do something —the main objective —the main
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thing is that they're still the managers —they still need to figure it out and
we should be supporting them, so... You know, I've got a target on my
back for things I've said or done — but as long as I think we're all moving in
some direction — better than nothing, because I think nothing we end up
with nothing in the end. So and just personally, you know, I've been
actively working on solutions, but I need better support, I need more
commitment. I can't, we can't do these ourselves and everybody else here
—Tony who I replaced has been doing a lot of stuff— but these things just
—they just kinda get slammed down —we don't get nowhere —just
personally I stand committed to trying — I don't even go hunting anymore.
I've probably hunted four hours this whole year on this island. But it's all
because I can't show up in a hunter ed class and look at all those kids and
think there's not going to be anything there if we don't do something so
that's why I'm here. But there's my presentation. You got my contact
there. Sometimes these things go public so people can just grab your info
and contact me so that's why I put it on this slide. But I just want to make a
difference and hopefully this will set the tone for something that we can
have a little bit of honest discussion and some respect, at least. I know
people are frustrated and whatever but let's work together and let's figure
out where we can have some synergies. That's the presentation. Thank
you guys very much.
TL: Thank you Ryan. That was pretty inciteful presentation. And one of the
things that I think we can take away from this presentation is — and we
talked about it a little bit too — is what value do our game animals have for
us here in Hawaii and I think Miss Case mentioned something about
separate but equal. And that is something that we need to be working
upon here is —where do our game animals sit. You know, we've submitted
a series of questions to the DLNR and to Chairperson Case. This evening
we'd like to go over some of them. I'd like to preface though some of that—
is that we have [sounds like Rory Buchanan] here from Molokai. You
know, Molokai gets 40% of their meals from subsistence sources whether
it be hunting or fishing or stuff that they grow in their back yard. There was
a study done in 2012 here on the Big Island by the University of Hawaii
where they found that at least 400,000 pounds of game is harvested
annually here and that number could actually go up to a million pounds of
game, actually. And all of these animals are basically in your care. You act
as trustees, so to speak, for the people of Hawaii. And we are your
beneficiaries and Miss Case you and the Governor are the two main
spoke persons, actually, for the DLNR. And on that I do and I do want to
have you address this at—what is the Governor's view on the
management and the harvest of our game. And you folks are —Willie-Joe
and [unclear] can come up here to the table here and address these
questions, you know, in the microphone here if you wouldn't mind. So we
can start with that, yeah, and Deputy you can come with her or whoever
you want to have Scott or somebody to field some of these...
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Man: Hand held usually works better. That's fine...
SC: Thank you...
TL: And thank you, again, by the way, for taking the time to join us this
evening. We do appreciate that.
SC: Sure. Definitely our pleasure to be here and thank you so much for having
us. So I'm Susan Case. I'm the new Chair of the Department of Land and
Natural Resources. Been on the job not quite two months. And Kekoa
Kaluhiwa is the first deputy, the land deputy and on the job a little bit
longer and so this is a great opportunity. Thank you for having us to really
come and meet you folks and listen. I know you talked about a
presentation but really we're here to listen. We're here to kinda hear what
are your thoughts, passions, questions, concerns and be in a learning
mode, so I appreciate that. I just want to give a little bit background on
myself just to start the process of getting to know each other. So I'm born
actually in Hilo. Lived here till I was ten. I lived in Keaukaha. I went to
school in Waiakea Kai and Keaukaha School. And I probably had a
childhood a lot like many of you who obviously love the outdoors —when
you're out in it hunting and fishing. I'm not a hunter. I did grow up spear
fishing at least till we moved to the big city in Honolulu when I was ten
although we came back quite a lot. But my upbringing involved just a huge
amount of outdoor adventure. Going all over where we could — off road —
jeep roads — climbing around the mountains, hiking, swimming, spear
fishing — all along the coast— Kona and around here. So I developed a
very deep appreciation for the outdoors and I know many of you, all of you
share that. It's being out in it that gives you that passion, that sense of
peace and that sense of connection and what you want to share with
future generations. My professional background is — my actual training is
as a real estate lawyer—which is helpful for me — I practiced real estate
law for 18 years for a private firm in San Francisco and 14 with the Nature
Conservancy. And I was on the mainland and here so I did work all over
the western United States and Hawaii and Asia-Pacific. I did legal work for
fourteen years so a lot of that was working on lands here on Hawaii Island
as well as places all over the western United States. And then I came
back and was — I came back in 2000 and was a little while later became
the State Director for the Nature Conservancy, so I did that for fourteen
years. So in that capacity I've had quite a bit of experience with many of
the issues that you all are high-lighting and worked with a lot of hunters
along the way and a lot of people who are conservationists,
preservationists and hunters as well. So I think a lot of people really share
at least the passion for both hunting and for protecting our very special
places. So that's a little bit of background. And then just in terms of some
— I just want, you know, cover just a couple of things that have been
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mentioned so far and then we can go into detail —whatever questions
people want to ask we can —and there are other DLNR folks here tonight
who can answer questions but, you know, certainly, this is not the end of
game mammal hunting. It's just— that's not happening —the — I think the —
I appreciate Ryan's overlay of what our—what is the breakdown of the
public hunting areas and, you know, there's a very, very large amount of
area set aside for public hunting — but it's true that not all of it is perhaps
it's not all prime public hunting. Some of it is fenced on Mauna Kea is, you
know, set aside for— under court order— and there are other areas that
are to be managed for protection of the native species that are on them.
But the vast majority is open public hunting areas and I think of the 700
plus thousand acres three percent is fenced plus Mauna Kea. So, you
know, I think, I think, so The Rain Follows the Forest framework and all
that red you saw in the slide there is a reflection of a planning process to
really identify the most critical native forest in order to prioritize but to think
that all of that is going to be, you know, fenced anywhere in the forseeable
future - it's not — and we have , we have [not speaking in mic—can't hear]
we have a map just to show kind of which areas are currently planned but
it's a pretty small fraction of the areas that are —even of the areas that are
really top quality native forest. So that's — I wanted just to cover that—
because there's a lot of land and it's a matter of— on the conservation side
and the hunting side of— I think what needs to happen and what has
happened to some degree and needs to happen more is prioritizing and
that's where the comment about, you know, how do we sort of co-exist in
these sometimes conflicting priorities and different constituents— so what
we want is, you know, good hunting areas that have a good access, that
have, you know, managed where, you know, where we can to optimized
the hunting and we want to protect our native forest and so there's a lot
land out there and as a practical matter the funding available to do all of
that management is, you know, no where near what we need on
anybody's count. So it's a matter of prioritizing and so The Rain Follows
the Forest was a planning tool to prioritize but the actual areas, you know,
designated for fencing anywhere in the near future is a small fraction of
that. I want to just talk...
TL: May I interrupt you just for a second on that...
SC: Yeah.
TL: ....issue. That question came up — Tony Sylvester in the back of the room
here has a couple of questions for you later also. When we were in Kona,
Chairman Aila actually was kind enough to join us at a meeting similar to
this over in Kona. And the question was brought up to him —the exact
question, you know, of this Rain Follows the Forest that smash of red that
you see around the island — how much of that—the question was — is
real? And he said, "Well, we can only do certain,"just like you just said,
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you know, "we can only do certain small amounts," so the question was,
"Well if you had the money today, would that be the plan?"And he said,
"Yes." So has that changed? Is that what you're saying that Priority 1 and
Priority 2 have changed from what we see on those maps right now?
SC: I don't know which areas you're referring to — but I don't think the plan
itself has changed — but— in terms of prioritizing but, but, you know, you're
gonna start with the Priority 1 areas and they are identified in the plan.
TL: And those are still the same Priority 1 and Priority 2 agendas —they're not
agendas but the specifics of it are to remove all ungulates from Priority 1
and Priority 2.
SC: Yeah, the goal is to take, you know, the most sensitive areas and also, I
mean, the other piece of this is, is where do we need to fence in order to
allow public hunting. And so that's the, you know, the Habitat
Conservation Plan that Ryan referred to is an example of that is, is you're
fencing out areas to protect endangered species so that management,
maintenance of a managed area for game mammals doesn't harm the
endangered species, so that's all included in the [not speaking in mic] in
the plans.
MB: So —this is Mark in Kona, Tom. Are we gonna — should we ask questions
now to follow up on this?
TL: Yes, please do.
SC: Can I just...
MB: Go ahead Susan...
SC: I just want to say the other piece of this —we can get into details about
plans and etcetera but the other piece of it is really about communication
and collaboration. And so I want to set the stage right now for good
communication and that's why we're here and I mean I personally am a
believer in collaboration in problem solving in figuring out what exactly are
the win-win opportunities. Where are the areas that there are, you know,
very little disagreement on and, you know, what are the road blocks to
moving forward on those and let's go ahead and tackle those. Let's have
good dialogue going, let's get to know each other. And you asked, you
know, what's the Governor's kind of approach to this and I would say as a
general matter the Governor is very much interested in collaboration and
bringing sides together that may sometimes devisive conversations. And I
believe in that very much and I think that that's gonna be the best path
forward and so I want to just emphasize that as a, you know, my personal
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commitment to trying to move forward, you know, and find those wins in
areas that we can, you know, work together.
TL: I'm gonna give this to Mark and then to Ryan. But Scott today suggested,
you know, a collaboration of, you know, hunter resources, you know, in
working in some of these areas which I think that's something that this
group here and those gentlemen in the audience would certainly like to
see going forward. Mark?
MB: Thanks, Tom. Eh, Susan, I really appreciate the fact that you're here with
staff I think a really important step for us — collectively—for collaboration
reasons. You know, Tom asked a question —you didn't answer it. I mean
the question was — if we had the money—would the fences go up? Right?
So, I mean, part of our premise in Ryan's presentation was, I mean, today
we can hunt but the reason we're all sitting on this commission is it's our
kids and our grandkids and their grandkids, right, are they going to have
the opportunity to hunt? And as The Rain Follows the Forest Plan is laid
out, Priority 1 and 2 are meant to be fenced. Tom asked the question, if
you had the money today is it the Governor's plan to fence it? Right, we
understand you don't have the money today, but if you did, would
Governor Ige and yourself fence that area?
SC: As of right now the plan is to fence the areas outlined on this map. And so
there is no plan right now to fence more than that.
MB: More than that? Right now. Is that a monetary reason or is that you? The
plan has changed...
SC: The plan hasn't changed that I know of. These are — but these are the
areas to be in the plan to be fenced now. So, I mean, I think, you know,
you're thinking about it like a hundred-year timeline and, you know, what
you, the answer to your question, if your question is do we want to fence
all public hunting areas and get rid of all the animals and stop game
mammal hunting the answer is no.
Man: Um...
MB: So hang on, hang on, I'm not done. Hang on. Hang on. [Unclear] follow-
up. So what I find a little bit intellectually dishonest about The Rain
Follows the Forest plan, right, is in some way, shape or form, when you
read it, and I've read it a hundred times and I've read the UH kinda
background on it all — is it leads the people of the State to believe this is
necessary for water. Right? So by erecting a fence and removing
ungulates there has to be a cause and effect, otherwise this is crazy to do
this, right, so Rain Follows the Forest says erect a fence, remove the
ungulates and we the people of the State will have more water. And
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having talked to hydrologists, right, the folks from USGS and Kaeo Duarte
who works for Kamehameha Schools, they say that's not true. It's not true.
So I need — I think we all deserve to understand what data the State has
regarding erecting a fence, removing ungulates is gonna generate more
water for the people of this State.
SC: The Rainfall —thank you for your question — I appreciate that and I know
that's been a question among some people. So The Rain Follows the
Forest is a statewide plan —generally speaking native forests in Hawaii is
—the remaining good native forest, high quality, very special forest that
contains our species, our complex ecosystem, captures rainwater. It
captures moisture from the clouds and soaks it into the ground. In, in —
that is one reason to protect the forest— production of— current production
of water is one reason to protect [unclear— sounds like "best"] forests.
Future protection of water sources is another reason. Another, you know,
there are a variety of reasons we have, we have destroyed, you know, a
good half of our forests in Hawaii and compromised another quarter of it—
so what we're trying to do is protect what we can of the highest quality
forest. You know, there's some new data from wells on Hawaii Island that
shows that there is in some places an aquifer that is a pretty incredible
fresh water source. And, you know, you just don't know what's coming
down in the future with climate change, you know, the stresses that the
forest that, you know, you're in when you go out—those forests are gonna
get drier. They're gonna change from the bottom, they're gonna change
from top. The layer that can absorb moisture and keep the forest healthy
and soak in water that comes up —wherever it comes up: rivers, aquifers,
wells. You know, we don't want to wreck the future, we don't want to
wreck it now and we don't want to wreck the future, so I think the answer
to your question is that there is a connection with water in all locations in
Hawaii. It's more obvious in other places but it's there here on Hawaii
Island as well.
MB: So and I'll just and I'm done after this one. I'm gonna make a statement,
it's not a question. I think you personally need to review the data. You
need to go talk to the experts about this. My sense of this is this is an
environmental plan housed around the idea that we're protecting water.
And when the scientists tell us that's not true. It's just not true, right? So,
um, I think if we want to protect the forest, we should protect the forest
and we should call it what it is. If we want to make this a NARS area, let's
have a discussion around NARS, but to suggest that removing ungulates
from these forests for the purpose of collecting water— Ph.D., M.I.T.
hydrologists say, "Not true." So, um, we just need to be honest with the
people, Susan. That's what I'm suggesting, right? Is if it's about saving
native forest then call it saving native forest. Don't house it under we're
going to generate more water because I believe that is intellectually
dishonest. Thank you.
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TL: I'd like to come back to this, but I want to give this to Ryan first.
RK: So, I wanted to dovetail that question, you know, we say that the plan is so
big and OK maybe, I forgot to state that in my presentation that, yeah, we
all understand that the budgets are limited —the amount of fencing you
can actually do is, of course, not the whole red area — but what happens
with the map and those large colored areas I showed is that when you
create a policy that is very landscape scale, it doesn't allow for looking at
any alternatives other than what is proposed. So, take for instance, your
large watershed areas— and you're only going to fence the priority
portions of it— now it may never be feasible that you fence the whole thing
but what about the places that hunters already can go — can a system
where maybe, you know, we always have this discussion between what
kind of sustained yield you're looking at for animals, right, some people
view this idea of the maximum sustained unit which is like that carrying
capacity deal —what about the 50% or maybe 25% yield, right? A lowered
density that perhaps has synergies to increasing native forest at the same
time, but yes, we still have the presence of these animals so there is a
benefit there for the hunters but, you know, but we know for sure we know
we don't have the budget to go fence and go full boar on it so we can
never have that discussion once this policy is set. So what I'm saying is
that, you know, you're not going to fence the whole thing, but if I were to —
if some, you know, some hunters were to come and say, hey, this area
you're not going to fence, can we look at maybe lower densities or can we
look at some — I'm gonna use the word "management" again — but
management of these here and maybe a lower fashion that we're not—
we're not, I mean, you're gonna have incidental takes or whatever some
people like to view it as — but it's just—maybe not at that level that is so
damaging, right, that there's still a function — cause we can't say those
areas now with pigs or sheep inside of them —that it doesn't have any
watershed function — it does. It's not perfect, maybe, but maybe, you
know, it will never be because we can't fence the whole thing — is there
ways that we can look at maybe a lower density or something like that and
that's the hard part when we make a landscape scale plan like that cause
it just kapu everything and we have no place left to — no wiggle room, you
know, such as my [unclear— sounds like "take"].
SC: Thank you for that. And I want to, I want to just acknowledge your
comment earlier about area by area management. And so we have, we
have this map showing — it starts with the map that Ryan showed before —
but the areas that are in red are the areas right now that are in this high
level protection, which is fencing and removal of the animals and the
areas in purple are areas that are identified for continuation. So it's a
small, very small proportion of it but I guess to answer your question —
with your concept— I totally agree with area by area planning. And so you
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really want to take, you know, take each area and figure out what's it best
suited for. And so is it best suited for game bird hunting and if so what are
the management tools you need in order to optimize that. Is it best suited
for game mammal hunting? If so what are the tools you need to optimize
that? I want to say access and, you know, what are the processes to
support that— is it a mixed kind of native forest and, you know, not so, not
so high priority and in that and in those kinds of areas, yes, managed to,
um, without the goal of removing all animals but with the goal of trying,
you know, keep the numbers to right levels, whatever they may be for that
particular area is right— is it a super-high sensitive, you know, high priority
area? Then the goal is to fence it and remove the animals. And, you know,
I have worked on this for many, many years and my experience is that
those animals do not mix with native forest. If you have them in their
eventually they'll just degrade —you'll get your strawberry guava in there,
you get your invasive weeds and pretty soon, as you can see any time you
drive up a road through a sensitive area you start to get weeds going in
and in the long run you're going to destroy the forest so again you want to
take your area by area and figure out what's the right management
strategy for that and what's the, you know, best— most inclusive way in
terms of hunting.
Man: What are those stars there?
SC: Oh, let me address that because those are [tape cap] pending public
hunting access points.
Man: Why is that Laupahoehoe one pending? What's that? The star on the top.
SC: [Not speaking in mic]
Man: That's not the one... Oh, come on David. Yeah, he can.
DP: Yeah, hi everybody, I'm David Penn. I'm access and acquisition
coordinator with the division and that is an — it's either open this weekend
or it's gonna be open very soon — a joint effort between County of Hawaii
and the division going up the Maulua on the Hilo side into the corner of the
Natural Area Reserve. The landowner up there made a subdivision of
more than 6 lots which triggers the County requirement to provide public
access to the forest and so that was just recently worked out.
Man: Well, very interesting. OK.
SC: The...
Man: Yeah, I'll talk with you on that one.
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DP: OK.
Man: I had no idea...
SC: Can I just add —the star in Kau is that our meeting this afternoon —the
star down in Kau...
Man: Roughly...
SC: Roughly— so David and his associates have been working for quite a long
time to try to negotiate access through the lands owned by the Olson Trust
to get up into the Kau Forest Reserve and we had a good meeting this
afternoon. I think we're pretty close to finalizing that and I think we're
gonna be able to have a positive announcement shortly on that...
Man: Hum.
TL: Can I ask and we have other questions we submitted to you earlier and
we want to get to some of those but and since we're talking about water
I'd like to have Tony talk to your also here in a second. But who came up
actually with this Rain Follows the Forest plan and got it into effect without
any discussion anybody in the public— I mean nobody came to us, nobody
came to any of them and said hey, this is what we want to do in the forest.
How did that actually come about?
SC: So, I don't know. I mean it was an initiative of the Abercrombie and Aila
administrations and I think it incorporates a lot of the plans that have been
part of the DLNR for a long time. It was really a way, again, planning and
prioritizing but based on a lot of— not just natural area information but also
hunting and game management information. I mean, you know, when you
prioritize things you want to look at all of the multiple uses and the, you
know, if you're gonna fence an area —we want to fence area that's, you
know, not—that's gonna be in, you know, your priority would be for pretty
remote areas unless there are, you know, endangered species in a more
accessible area. So I think it was a culmination of long standing plans. I
mean the prioritization, you know, I've read in plans and documents from
early on, from the 90s, early on. So I think it was a re-framing of the
initiatives that have been in the...
TL: You're read the plan, right?
SC: Yeah, I haven't read it recently but I have read the plan, yeah.
TL: I didn't see too much about hunting, actually, in that.
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SC: No, but, but in the process of prioritizing them, you know, you want to take
into account the various uses of areas so...
TL: In your prioritizing you don't believe that the public should have some
communication with you and when you start doing all these prioritizing
what fits with the public's need of things?
SC: So one good example of where the public, you know, has the opportunity
is the Pittman-Robertson Game Management Plan, which is reviewed
every five years and, you know, that's put out for public comment.
TL: I may actually, after Tony, have Richard Offlinger cause he's looked into
this — public is supposed to have input into that as well and to my
knowledge —we haven't in the years and years that we've gone for and
asked for money with that Pittman-Robertson, at least, nobody here but...
SC: We can have somebody answer specifically.
TL: We can come back to that... Tony— he had some questions on watershed
that I think —while we're talking about water we should address.
TS: Hello everybody. Yeah, I sent it in to Kekoa — I had those questions there.
If I could start with that first and it's still —this is still part of watershed
protection plans and it's not just The Rain Follows the Forest because the
State has a water commission and they have a Water Resource
Protection Plan so I think The Rain Follows the Forest was just the way to
name it and sell it to the Legislature. So the plans are here—they've been
here for many years and it's just trying to, I guess, focus it into one
objective or one policy. What I want to have specific answers to some of
the questions is— as part of the Commission of Water Resource
Management, which is part of DLNR —when they actually did the water
resource protection plan they specifically talk about monitoring of well
sites and the lack thereof - where over a period of 8 years 156 of the 187
monitoring well sites that were active in 1999 have been discontinued and
that translates to 83% reduction in the number of monitoring wells
statewide. So one of my questions was is how did they do any of the
watershed protection plans if they're not even monitoring the well sites —
to even know what the acquifer is doing and so forth and so forth. And
then under goals for the water resource inventory and assessment—they
specifically says that commit to long term reliable data collection — so it
seems like a plan is created without even having data even to create the
plan and I guess — it kinda been my question to round it all — let's see — so
through and [unclear— sounds like interactive] approach of data collection
analysis when only 17% of the monitoring well sites in the State are
actively being monitored — so what individual group determined what
areas of the State required additional watershed protection based on the
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data that did not exist. So I think that's my primary question that I would
like answered. And the US Geological Survey does their own every five
years or so too and on their maps in some of the areas have over 200
percent more water then what the State plan used and in talking with Aila
in the past— I brought up the fact that, you know, with —what the plan
says that they're supposed to be doing —develop the best available
information on the currents location extent behavior of water resources in
the State — how do they know any of this stuff if you're not monitoring any
of the wells? Seventeen percent of the wells throughout the State are
being monitored and you're determing aquifiers in Waikeuka, Puumakala
—where we get hundreds and hundreds of inches of rain every year and
it's falling under this watershed protection plan — I don't— it's just mind
boggling. I think we use 4% of sustainable yield on this island where Oahu
is like 40 and yet the majority of the land in these maps for watershed
protection resides here on the Big Island. It's hard for us to have any faith
in anything when — I mean — I'm not a hydrologist but I can't find the data —
I've looked through all the State plans —there's no data referred anywhere
— so where's this stuff magically coming from?
SC: Yeah, thanks. So the data that the —the data is climate and land cover
data on what types of forests collect water. What are the —what is the — a
healthy forest is this multi-layered, you know, koa, ohia, hapuu canopy
understory with layers and layers of lichens and moss that slowly absorb
the moisture from the clouds and drip in. That is watershed and, you
know, whether you have a lot of water now or a little bit of water— it still is
the mechanism that we —that we all rely on in terms of having moisture
that we all depend on in whatever form it comes out. So it's the climate
and land cover data and as you may know there's studies out showing
that, you know, a strawberry guava forest is gonna both reduce water
absorption and also evapo-transpire moisture itself back into the
atmosphere —so if you have a native forest and it gets converted to a
strawberry guava forest over time you're gonna lose the water absorption
capacity and you're going to lose more water because it's going back up.
You're also going to losing that very delicate under story that holds the soil
in and in places it causes mass erosion and ends up on the reefs and mud
on the water and, you know, Molokai is a very good example of that, you
know, and other places. So, um, I guess that's the data is land cover and
climate data and over time that is gonna, you know, the projections show
that's gonna be even more stressed and so that's why it becomes more
and more important to make sure you keep it healthy now.
TS: OK. I think that part of science — I think we —verily understand — I think the
problem goes back to though the data is not there to be monitoring what
the wells are even doing — so how do they even know that? Strawberry
guava as examples — I think if you converted all the native forests to
evasive trees it would be a 5% difference.
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TL: That's right.
TS: So and I think that's there — so you're talking 5% even if all our native
forest was changed —when we use only 4% of sustainable yield. It just
doesn't happen. And then when we talk about one size fits all again — now
we go to the cliffs of Molokai where maybe you have erosion — but we're
talking somewhere thirty miles inland in Waikea and the Puna areas and
places like that, that has no rivers. It's nothing's gonna even —there's no
coral reefs that it's gonna get affected — and yet the policy is for these
areas.
SC: Sure, but even in those areas the water is ending up — it's a very porous
lava, you know, there's a lot of channels under water and it's ending up...
TS: A hundred seventy-seven inches of rain a year—what is climate change
gonna reduce that to?
SC: Well, I...
TS: I mean, we're trying to cover our climate change policy—what we're trying
to do is work with a policy that the State is using — DLNR — and it's wrong!
And we need to correct this and we're never gonna get over this hump
unless this thing is corrected. This watershed plan is not right— is not
pono for the Islands —you have a specific area —fine — take care of that
area but don't create a plan as that map shows — I think Ryan talked about
that—that we have no wiggle room to talk about anything else anywhere
because that plan covers it all. That needs to be re-done. Whisht! Start
fresh and pick a specific areas that you have problems and protect it. I
don't think there's a person in here that would refute that. Thank you.
TL: Can I just add one thing to — something he said was triggered by
something that you said earlier and that is that 2011 plan that was put out
by the US Geological Survey indicates several things— one that he
alluded to that you can replace all of the invasive with native and wind up
with a net of only about—well 10% in a couple of areas — but a net of only
about 5% increase in re-charge. When you talk about permeability—that's
not the Hamakua Coast. That might be on the Kau side where you have
permeability—where you have 80% recharge—this side of the island you
only get maybe about 20 and a lot of that is because the age of the land
on this side is much older than it is on that side and so, you know, again
he's saying this one size fits all thing — but they also say that we're gonna
have more rain now and we're also gonna have more rain at the end of
the century and where our rainforests get this rain from is from rain and
you talk about invasive species [unclear] strawberry guava — but if we're
really worried about water, you know, we should be planting things like
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Cook pine, because that is what will collect fog drip —when you want to
increase the collection of water so, you know, when you start bringing this
watershed thing up, you know, people are real skeptical and I agree with
Tony. I think that we need to be dealing with more specifics and I think you
need to be dealing with the public more. Anyway— anybody else here
have a...
Man: Yeah, I got some stuff. OK. So I think we still got to go back to Mark's first
initial question on Priority 1 and Priority 2 and, you know, I, you might not
be able to answer it right now, but we need to look because if you look at
the plan —The Rain Follows the Forest Plan — and you look at Priority
Areas 1 & 2 —that is all that red that Ryan had up on there. If you look at
the plan it's in the plans — it's —that's 1 & 2 — so the original question is — if
there were the funding, the money, the resources right now— is that the
plan? Yes, it is the plan. You said that plan has not changed — if you look
at the plan —that's what the plan is. And the plan for Priority 1 and 2 — not
what we got coming up the pipe right now. What the long term plan is it's
there. And that's—that's what gets all the hunters and all of us very
worried is because when you take the map and you put what's eventually
gonna be gone that's all of our good hunting. I mean as much as you guys
don't want the waiwis in the forest neither do I — cause I can't walk through
that crap — it's like hair— I mean it's — maybe useless for water collection —
well it's useless for me to walk through there also —and that's where a lot
of our frustration in the past and I'm hoping that we're start tonight clean
sweep —Aila/Abercrombie administration is gone —we starting new—
because Aila/Abercrombie administration was from the first day a lie. And
all we ever got from them is lies. And so, you know, I mean, I'm just—
want this to be out in the open and let's start fresh today. I do agree —we
need to communicate and have that communication but I think you need
to just understand where all this frustration and anger is coming from and
it's from years and years and years and years of lie after lie after lie and
beating around the bush, beating around the bush and never answering
the basic, simple questions, you know, Rain Follows the Forest, just
appeared out of nowhere to us—to hunters, yeah, the people in DLNR
they may have seen it coming, but to the public— it was like whoa what is
this. When we approached Mr. Aila with this — I held the plan up like this
right to him — he said, "Oh, that's just a draft." Funny— one week later it
was in progress, you know, so that's where I'm coming from. It's been a lie
from day one with them and I really don't want to go there again. And
know you don't want to go there either and I'm not saying you are, but I
think we need to get —stay with the basics and really look at the plan and
really understand why we're so worried, cause there is a big worry. You
know, these fences — as small as they are —they are in key areas for
hunters also and that's why there's a lot of—that's why there is all that
animosity between hunters and the whole preservation plans. So, you
know, I just want you guys to understand that—that, that's where a lot of
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this is coming from and you know when we ask for data or ask for a heads
up we don't ever—we haven't in the past gotten it— so hopefully we're
gonna start that on a better note in this coming however many years —
hopefully a lot of our years. Thank you.
TL: On that note I also want to compliment your department. Scott Fretz
actually answered a couple of letters and Jim Cogswell also did and
applaud both of them, you know, that's a change that we have not seen
ever before and, you know, your new management that you have here is
working great.
SC: Can I just a — Kekoa just wanted to just take a little opportunity.
KH: Thank you, Chair.
KH: Aloha Kakou to the folks behind us — my apologies to having our backs to
you this evening but I just want to briefly introduce myself as first Deputy
Director of DLNR — Kekoa Kaluhiwa — born and raised Kaneohe. Very
proud to call myself a hunter as well. It's fair to say I'm here today serving
in this capacity because of my passion and the values that was instilled at
an early age through that love of the outdoors and so I as well as others in
the room have served as a volunteer hunter education instructor— now
having two young children I had to take a hiatus for a few years but it's
certainly something I'm very passionate about. I just wanted to — in my
life's work I think the first thing is to always acknowledge, yes, there were
shortcomings, I think. I've done a lot of research in the few months that
I've been on board at DLNR, I think there are certainly ways that we can
improve our communications with communities, with hunters, with GMAC
in particular. I also want to acknowledge that many of our staff sitting right
behind me are fellow hunters. And they can understand the frustration, fair
to say. I commit to you as Suzanne initially laid out. We're here to listen. I
think, you know, in native thought it's somewhat mahaoe to come in with
big promises to you tonight beyond the fact that we commit to you to have
open dialogue and communication and so that's my commitment to you
tonight. I don't know, you know, the plan of The Rainfall is the Forest
intimately, but I do plan to research that further. I commit to you my
availability to you and the fellow hunters here tonight to keep the
dialogues — I think there is much understanding and respect that can be
had, if we just had those opportunities. So... I also want to point out
frankly, as a hunter and someone who's in this position. For as long as I'm
available and can be used as a resource, I'm adamant that this island
needs a shooting range. I had — I don't have a comment to the current
proposal regarding Puuanahulu, but I will say, as a fellow hunter, that is
something that I feel very strongly about and be willing to help to advocate
to that end. I think so with Chair Case as well. So with that mahalo.
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TL: Well, thank you... Dick Hofflinger had a question and then this gentleman
here. Can you stand up Richard? And there's a microphone here.
RH: I just wanted to — I can speak— I just wanted to thank Scott— Scott
responded to three letters that I wrote and that's the first time I've ever
gotten a response from DLNR in my life. Thank you, Scott.
TL: Hey, two stars for Scott.
MB: Hey, Tom, we need the Hofflinger to speak into the mic please.
BC: Everyone...
MB: Everyone speak into the mic, please.
TL: Yeah, they— speak into the mic. They can't hear you out there in Kona.
RH: Am I on? I just made a kinda responded to Willie-Joe's concerns about
never getting anything back from DLNR and I share that concern. Today in
my mail I got three letters that Scott Fretz—who is now acting as the head
of Forestry and Wildlife— responded to my questions and that's the first
time it's every happened in my history with DLNR, which goes back
about twenty years. So thank you. I hope Scott might be considered for a
permanent position.
TL: He told me he almost had a stroke because of that. Yes sir?
JR: My name's Jodie Riveira. I'm just a hunter and sometimes kinda
humorous but I know this is —for some of you it might be and for some it's
not— but my question to you is — places that you do fence it— how do you
plan to get rid of the animals?And I'm gonna listen to your comment and
then I have something to say.
SC: So I would like to defer to the experts in that but generally speaking the
methods first aim to take the animals out and where practical put them in
public hunting areas. And secondly are also to include hunters in the
removal efforts and when that's all pau and there's, you know, just a few
animals left then the staff focuses on that.
Man: Do you guys snare?
SC: In some places when the animals have been mostly removed just to keep
them from repopulating.
Man: OK. My comment to that is — let's say I tied a pig to my fence — and let it
starve — my neighbors see that. What you think will happen?
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SC: Nobody would like it.
Man: I would get arrested or I'd pay a fine. But, yet, DLNR gets away with it.
And, you know, I just want to speak for the animals. You know, like the
baby in the womb. Somebody got to speak for them. And when the thing
called liberals and conservatives never heard about that till the past few
years — I go there's a new breed of people.
TL: Excuse me...
Man: There needs to be another way to do things instead of snaring. We need
to try to figure it out.
TL: We have a number of other things on the agenda too so...
Man: Yeah, [unclear] cutting me short... But that's a true fact, though, so I just
wanted to bring that to you guys attention and thank you.
Man: Just one quick one. Touching on that little plan or - I hate to say comment
you just made —but anyway—first comment in that was to try and remove
them and replace them into a hunting area — but we tried that with some of
our sheep on Mauna Kea and come to find out there's no place on this
island that we can put any sheep. So, I mean, just so you understand this
is what I'm talking about, about frustrations, you know, we work to —with
the — at the time Hans and the guys in Waimea — DLNR people —work
with 'em — made the whole plan —they helped us build the wing — got the
sheep rounded up and we had no place to put 'em. 714,000 acres of
hunting area on the map, yet there's not one acre we can put our animals
on. That is where the frustration is coming from. I mean and that's why — I
want you to understand — because that's great—that's a great plan —
that's a great thing to do — nobody here would oppose that— but where
can we do it? Puuwaawaa? HCP's been sitting on a desk somewhere
underneath one pile of papers for God knows how many — over ten years
— ah, I mean, by the time the thing is done we got to re-write 'em already.
You know, things have changed —the way it's going, but...
W: You're getting the mother load of complaints and you just came on board
and I just wanted to say I appreciate your openness to hear these
complaints and to be willing to take them to heart and we certainly should
give you a fair chance to maybe deal with a lot of these complaints and I
think for me personally, changing the wording would be really great from
eradication to management and to look at more at the public hunter rather
than the hunters that are hunters `cause they're employed by the DLNR.
And to remember that the water problem is Oahu. Oahu is so short of
water because of over population — it's been a horrible problem for many,
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many years and so The Rainfall is the Forest is about that. We don't have
the same problem here — so applying that to the Big Island is really unfair,
yeah, and also with the fencing. Personally, I would like — if you would
consider the need that animals have to migrate when you're making
straight stretches of fencing. Somehow the hunters—the management of
the wild animals could be considered — part of their need to migrate. Yeah,
thank you. Again, thank you for being here and being patient and we want
to give you a good fair chance to be fair to us. We really appreciate it.
TL: You know, you were given two questions on the specific issue and those
two questions were 1) what would you do to facilitate the management
and relocation of animals if applicable to preclude their eradication from
other areas, was one and the other was 2) would it be appropriate for
DLNR to discontinue anymore fending until we get viable game
management plan in affect.
SC: And so on the first again — relocation is a tool that we look at and have
employed where possible in certain areas. Also, making meat available
and there are hunts — I think is our priority— and we'll continue to be ways
to improve access like stopovers and fences and one way gates so that
animals can move from a fenced area into an adjacent area. All different
kinds of, you know, ways to ensure that the animals continue to be
available in one way for the...
TL: Can any of your staff tell us when this HCP is going to be completed for
Puuanahulu so that we can get some game relocated there?
Man: Hit that little button on there...
Man: Temporarily the administrator for a few weeks — Scott Fretz. Short answer
— no. Sorry. We're working on it and it hasn't been sitting —that's not what
the problem has been. It's we have been working on it and it's taken a lot
work and we put a lot surveys and a lot of effort into it and it's still moving
— but we've had some issues getting it approved both on the State side
and on the federal side [unclear]. So that's where we're at right now is just
making it through that regulatory process. We are committed to get it
done. I haven't been briefed on where we're at on it now— it's on my list to
get briefed by the staff this week. I know they've had some good
discussions with Fish &Wildlife Service on moving forward so I expect to
get good news this on that.
TL: Then we can — maybe in a week or so hear from you on that?
SF: Sure.
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Man: So I have a question. This is Ike. And it seems to me to be the crux of
many of the questions here. Aside from the frustration that you're hearing
now— how much does the State drive bus as it relates the federal
mandates, requirements, those kind of things. Because it seems to me
that over the past forty-fifty years the State really has relinquished its
control of its own destiny as it relates to its resources. And that we don't
have much serious resource management in the State and some of what I
would suggest as an example of resource management in say game
management or aquatics resource management would be to put some
money there. I mean that would be kind of an indication to the public that
you guys are serious about what you're talking about. I haven't seen
much funding to go to these areas. You know, we hear a lot about oh yeah
we're doing great stuff, but as you look around it's not supported by the
hard stuff and, you know, for me one very evident kind of an example
would be Puuwaawaa. I mean in the 1980s there was great discussion
about what that place would be and here we are in 2014 and we don't see
any game management going on. It's basically letting the sheep kind or
roam around. People go there. They can do archery once in a while. But
there is not real serious resource management going on. And I think, at
least for myself, if I saw that kind of activity going on - some of my
frustrations and fears might be eliminated. And more spefically, so —
have many questions in there but more specifically you said that wanted
to continue the communication and all that and I'm very appreciative of
that. I would hope that you identify specifically how people can be part of
that communication because to be given a plan at the back end and asked
to give input—that's not communication. I think, you know, if I might say
this — so — I think local style is you gotta talk to people, you know, you got
to talk to them eyeball to eyeball and if there are hard questions you have
to answer the questions. So that's my comment. I'd also like to thank you
and your staff for coming.
TL: Can I follow-up on what Ike just brought up here. There's been a lot of
questions, consternation and frustration in contentiousness as well. With
areas like Puu Makaala and the NARS areas and a lot of that comes from
again this lack of communication and in fact just recently I went through a
series of communications with your NARS program here and was told that
I was gonna get an answer back from somebody higher—well, still nobody
has come back to us so this communication thing, you know, hasn't been
completely resolved yet but, you know, the NARS area, I mean, you know,
to us NARS is a public program, you know, and we feel that DLNR owes
the hunters, especially those people that use areas like Puu Makaala,
which is a very popular hunting area. There are some of their hunters that
are here tonight that may want to add on to this question — but it was
recently just cut off to them, you know, there was a fence or a gate put up
— now they have to walk extra miles to get to the hunting area —they have
dogs that they have to manage while they're doing it— if they're successful
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now they have this extra two miles coming back with their game as well as
their animals. And there was no communication with the public going into
that activity and the other thing is, is that when you ask for comment from
the public—whether it be for Chapter 124, whether it be for the NARS
program, whether it be for the game rules that we have — in the NARS
area one of the frustrations is you get hundreds of comments from people
yet, what you see from NARS is this statement of Finding of No Significant
Impact. We have hundreds of people saying, "Hey, this is an affect to me.
It's not of no significant impact." It's a big impact to people and you're
dismissing it. And I think that's something that the hunters here or some of
the folks here anyway, I'm for myself as well would like to have you
address if you wouldn't mind.
Man: On a related issue — because it just came up again — but I think the
hunters here on this island and maybe statewide have said that they don't
like the aerial eradication and yet, again, that's being done on Mauna Kea.
And there is an understanding of why we're doing it up there but is there a
better way of, you know, controlling the sheep up there rather than going
on helicopters and shooting them with double buck? I mean, you know,
there must be a better way and a lot of people here on the island have
said we don't like aerial eradication. It's not a very nice way of doing
things.
Man: OK. Let's see. That was a punch. I think you're asking about EAs and
when you guys or the public or anyone submits comments on those EAs.
The agency is required to respond to those comments and so there should
be a response that would indicate to you that your comment has been
taken into consideration and explain what the action was and why it was
taken. So I don't know specifically what you're referring to but you should
have that. If you don't, you can call me or call Suzanne and we can look
into it.
TL: I will take you up on that because I did read that EA and, you know, it's -
and I have trouble following a lot of it often times — but I read it as
thoroughly as I could and I don't see anywhere in there that many of the
concerns that were brought up were even cursorily addressed by the final
action that's going on up there at Puu Makaala. So I would definitely want
to follow-up with you on that.
Man: I'm not familiar with the details so I'd have to...
TL: I understand, I understand...
Man: You know Ike started his comments with a question and I took some notes
so I want to try to respond to those cause I think they're informative. And
one of those was that out-mangement and we do want to improve
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management at Puuanahulu and Puuwaawaa. And that's what that HCP is
going to enable us to do. We do want to communication management
better to you guys. We do management. I'm sure a lot of people don't
think we do management or don't think we do enough management or
would rather have us do different management but we're happy to talk to
you guys about that and would like to get your input. And you guys
mentioned earlier the Pittman-Robertson Five-Year Game Plan —we do
that every five years —we have a list of entities that we send it to — it was
last done five years ago — you guys were not a commission at that time,
but I think Hawaii County is on that list. When I was the manager we sent
it out and as I recall we sent it to Hawaii County and other counties and
other agencies. If you guys want additional opportunities, I would like that.
I would like to have you guys contribute to that and read it, read it in detail
and tell us what you guys would like to do and it's coming up. So now's
the time.
TL: Right. OK. Dick Hofflinger has a question for you on that.
RH: The real problem is there's no systematic institutionalized process to go
through that. Now you said to qualify for a PR funds you either have to
have five year game management plan or a list of approved —five year list
of approved projects. And you do have that. Did anybody here ever have
any input on any of those projects? That's the problem.
Man: I don't disagree that we could communicate better and get better feedback
from you guys in the past. Like I said, it's done every five years — cause
it's a five year plan. It's coming up now so let's work on it.
Man: Can I add to that—the PR funds — because it's money that we can use but
I think everyone understands here the Section 7 Review of the
Endangered Species Act—which really precludes us ever using that funds
for game mammals— in a sense— or aiding the survival of game animals
so we're really talking about nothing, I mean, I can fix roads, I can do all
that kind of stuff with that money but fed — I can't touch it and that was,
you know, they talked about the relocation of sheep with Willie-Joe and
that was some of the barrier of actually doing it was that our, I guess you
want to say partners in the service —the Fish &Wildlife Service —decided
that moving the sheep anywhere was gonna be a threat to an endangered
species maybe even miles away. It was quite unreasonable, I think, and
maybe we have different people today—we can have that discussion but,
you know, it's really—the PR plan is quite useless to us as far as public
game mammals go, I mean, let's just be honest with that, I don't know,
what's your comment on that?
Man: It is a challenge with regard to game mammals. There's a lot we can do
but the case that we've made with regard to the State and federal laws —
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both — is that if we're doing management that is not enhancing the survival
or reproductive success —then we go ahead and do that management.
And this is —we run into this in areas where there happen to be
endangered species. So that's not everywhere and so there is a lot of
good management to get done that does get done — you're right, there's a
lot of challenges and difficulties. We don't have any of those issues with
game birds so we're able to do the management we need to for game
birds without having to go through that process.
Man: Scott...
TL: Scott I have one...
Man: Sorry I just, you know, we're aware that we need a better, bigger, global
solution with regard to the federal and state law with regard to this process
that we go through. We don't want to go through it on a case, by case, by
case— it's too time consuming. It's too challenging to do it. It eats up
everybody's dollars. We're trying to work with Fish & Wildlife Service to
find a better way that we can resolve it on a landscape scale and I'm
talking to the Chair about that and we're trying to figure out better ways
that we can get that done.
TL: Scott on that—you mentioned that anywhere that you can sustain,
propagate, or—what was that other word that you used there — on game
mammals. If that's what 183D charges you to do....
S: Correct...
TL: ....is to create these habitat— create these situations to sustain,
propagate, manage [unclear] whatever you need to do — so, you know,
this new money [unclear] money that you have here with increased license
fees and all of that—why can't you use that money without the Feds to
enhance areas for game mammals?
S: We can — but the State law is almost identical to the federal law with
regard to the impacts to endangered species so it doesn't get us around
the State law anyway. It—we can avoid going through the Section 7
process and we can spend the State money that way but we're still in
violation of State law for take— assuming that's what you are talking about
is spending it in a case where there would be take.
Man: Yeah, and how was that — how was that designated? Is that something
like any time we're going to spend State money on something does that
go infront of Endangered Species Recovery Committee —who makes that
decision whether 195 is [unclear] species one — is violated with thsy...
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Man: No. Management level decisions like that don't necessarily go in front of
the ESRC...
Man: Oh...
Man: Some things go in front of the board. The board is the entity that
determines what we do ultimately. If you go before the board, you have to
indicate how you've complied with 343. So certain triggers can occur
there, but no, not necessarily. It's just a — it's an enforc3ement issue.
Man: Oh, cause, yeah, like if we put— say we got a bunch of sheep in an ocean
of fountain grass like Puuanahulu or something like that, I mean, very low
conservation value — I don't like to use that word conservation — I'm saying
preservation value for the endangered species or something like that. We
always — I think that the common thread is that all these things are bad
over there because they're gonna end up in Puuwaawaa and eat—
threaten endangered species that maybe aren't fenced or something like
that when maybe that's not always the case. I mean this thing will always
nip us —will always be hurdle for us — how, I mean, unless we address it
these animals are essentially like I was saying not allowed to exist
because can't do anything with them. So, I mean, I know you're working
on it— but it's just this nebulous thing that's been doing on for years and...
TL: You learn where these animals go, what they do, what they eat and how
much damage do they do...
MB: Hey, Tom, I got a question. Tom, it's Mark in Kona.
TL: [Unclear]
MB: Hey, Scott, thanks for coming. Hey, you talked about game management
in — you said it is going on. You know, can we, is it fair for the hunting
public or the public in general to expect that at some point much like Rain
Follows the Forest or a NARS program or—that we actually can see in
writing what the State's intent around managing these game animals looks
like? I mean — a game management plan in writing that we can actually—
actually help you execute on or have in put into. I mean everything's got
something in writing around here except game management. So is it fair
for us to expect that can happen?
S: Yeah. I think that's reasonable and fair and so as I said that five-year plan
is coming up —we turn it in about a year from now so that means we have
a year to start working on it with you guys and that's about the lead time
we start working on it anyway. So there's that. There is a draft strategic
game management plan that was drafted some time ago — I know you
guys are all aware of it—we were working on that— I know you guys have
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been asking about it and where is it? We're working on it and I've
assigned our wildlife manager and gave him a deadline to get a draft to
me. So I hope to get that out to you guys too. I also think that part of what
you're asking, I think, is, you know, when we look at these maps and
you're seeing the watershed layer and the rainfalls forest layer and all
these things you've put up —what you had not put up and what you guys
are not seeing is where are the hunting areas that are gonna stay hunting
areas. And I think we need to do a better job of communicating that. This
watershed layer is an area of watershed importance. It's an area that
we've designated for potential management. I think we need to take it a
step further and show you guys the areas that are going to be for hunting.
So I think those three things are things that we can work with you guys on.
MB: Thanks, Scott.
TL: Hunting areas for perpetuity you're talking about?
S: Yes.
Man: Yeah, if I could comment on that. I don't want, I mean, maybe some
people have a different opinion of this but just— it's a personal one of mine
— I don't want to be separate from the discussion of preservation and
hunting — like we're — like where they're severed. I know they can't mix in
the most pristine places but in these mixed areas where it's so large and
sometimes vast— I don't think we should be a divided group like you say,
oh, these guys, this is their place and this is the other guy's place.
Because you really— right now we actually do have both in some of these
places and how do we, I guess we're saying - what I'm trying to say is that
it's easy to go one way and it's easy to go the other way, but it's very
difficult and the work begins when we try to do both at the same time and
that commitment has to be there, otherwise we just take the easy route,
you know...
S: There ought to be those areas, I mean...
Man: Yeah.
S: ....as an agency we don't just do only hunting and watersheds either. We
do other things too and we've got to integrate all that stuff in our plans too.
So there will be areas that are mixed-use, but there need to be areas that
are set aside for real game management for sustained game production
and there need to be areas that are set aside for watershed protection,
endangered species and protection of native ecosystems and there will
always be areas that are mixed use. We do trails and recreation as well.
We need to take that into consideration. We do forestry and forest
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products so, I mean, we have multiple things we have to do and we need
to integrate all of those.
TL: Scott, there's a question from the back. Joe?
JR: Hey, guys, my name is Joe Rufus. As I've been listening to you guys — hi,
Mrs. Case, how you doing? [Tape gap] What I don't hear is we're gonna
go back and change things or look at what's already been broken, you
know, you guys keep talking about what we're gonna do, what's already
in place, watershed it, you know, no transparency with that. What about
implementing a game management plan first before we do anymore
fencing? Are you open to a moratorium on fencing and eradication until
that plan is done? Where do we stand there?
S: This is what's on our list of [sounds like fence] right now.
JR: Right, right, But what about all the lands that are already fenced? It's been
fenced and properly a game management plan was never done— as
Kalani said you guys took the best. Willie-Joe said you took the best from
us already. But you guys are taking more. So what about going back and
reassessing those things —fencing it correctly — save the taxpayers
millions of dollars — Rain Follows the Forest that 480,000 acre program is
what $80 million dollars — 161 miles of fencing —for what? Based on a
false watershed plan? [Unclear] proves it. So this is what I'm not hearing I
don't know if everybody else is not getting it— but this is what I don't
understand what your guys take on that. [Unclear]
Man: Thanks, Joe.
TL: Actually, I asked that question myself. What— should you stop fencing
until we get a game management plan. I would like to hear that answer.
S: I think that's out of my pay grade to go and dismantle fences and take
things apart, so... I think I'm gonna have to defer to the Chair on that one.
TL: It's 8:15p. We have a bunch of questions that we submitted earlier—
you've gotten some from us here tonight—we'd like to continue this
dialogue both as a commission and also as individuals. Ryan has, you
know, some of his own situations that he wants to have different
organizations also want to participate in this. You said that you're going to
be submitting this game management plan for review here. We look
forward to that. Cause I think that'll go a long way in getting this process
started, actually, in a legitimate manner or not maybe legitimate but in a
positive manner. But I do want to thank you all. [Tape gap — someone
speaking not in mic] You have a question? OK. We opened this up for
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questions with the DLNR. I you have a question, we'll entertain it but we
have to move on. You in the back. Oh... Sorry...
SC: To answer the question. We don't have any plans to do any moratoriums
or unfenced areas that are —that have been fenced. The plan is to move
forward where — as possible with acres on the map here.
TL: Pat? [Tape gap — someone not speaking into mic] I only have a couple of
seconds here so...
Man: Are you serious?
TL: 8:30p we're closing and we have other things...
Man: Yeah, I'm gonna get right to the point. OK my question to you Mrs. Case —
my name is Pat Pacheco — I'm a veteran hunter and been hunting since
1950. 1 can have some questions — some verification for you right off the
bat. You say that the endangered species weeds is the animals —wrong —
let me correct you on that. Kulani Road —that's what it was in the Fifties —
I've been a hunter since 1950. It was Kulani Road going up to Kulani
Prison —that's why they call it. Later on they called this Stainback
Highway. Well there was just one road there — it was a flume road — but
the plantation used to haul — use that water— and it still have the old flume
on the side of the road —that they hauled the cane down, used the water
to use it. Ariyoshi administration [unclear] hired O'Connell contractor from
Fifty and three quarter. He brought the bulldozer in there and made all the
side roads without washing the seeds off. They brought the seeds. The
State destroyed the mountain, not the animals. The State went in there
without washing — I worked plantation. To go to one place one field to
another we had to wash our tractors —to not to transplant the seeds,
right? Well the State didn't give a damn...
TL: Pat, Pat we're gonna have to...
PP: You say everything...
TL: We've got disconnected problems.
PP: Oh, Kona...
W: We got disconnected...
PP: ....because I'm talking... Because I'm 'telling the truth people. I'm telling
you guys the truth.
Man: Mr. Chair I suggest we go into — call a recess.
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TL: OK. We're gonna call a recess here and see if we can get re-hooked up
with our Kona... [Tape gap] All right we're going to adjourn at 8:48p this
evening and we'll take up some of these issues at our next meeting.
Thank you. So we're adjourning the meeting at this time.
but, you know, the more you can give us the better. We do also, not only fee
simple purchase but the commission does accept easement requests —
conservation easements — it's not an acquisition —we wouldn't buy it
outright—the County would —easement is definitely, you'll get a lot more,
you know, bang for your buck money wise — you don't pay the whole, full
price. We've done one. There has been a few that has been nominated to
us in the past. So that's, you know, that's one thing to consider. And then
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the timeline for processing the nominations - our July meeting is where
our commission will review all the forms submitted this year and we have
an investigative committee, which does go out and do site visits on
properties, so if the property is easily accessible, that's a plus. We do
need the landowners' consent, you know, to go and do a, conduct a site
visit. Location, accessibility, feasibility.
Our September meeting —they'll assess the forms and determine which
properties will be included on the prioritized list.
December—the annual report to the mayor is submitted by the end of the
month with the prioritized list. So all properties submitted for this year will
be put on a list, ranked accordingly by our commissioners and like I said —
properties are ranked higher if they have more information provided.
February—the report is transmitted to the County Council with the mayor's
recommendations. Once they approve it and file it—the next step — if
there was a property that you were interested in pushing through —the
County Council Member in that district would have to prepare a resolution
authorizing the Finance Director to enter into negotiations. So from the
time you submit a form in June you're looking at nine to ten months before
we could even get to that process where we could actually start moving on
it and you know all of that is determined upon availability, urgency, very
important. Yeah. So that would be our process. To date, this is all the
properties that we've acquired with the PONC fund. We have a total of 10
properties. We've acquired 1,261 acres, obtained almost 5.6 million
dollars in federal and state grants and we do not have representation in
every district. This commission is entirely community driven. So all the
properties nominated to us is submitted to us by the public, by community
groups who are interested in preserving that. So, you know, we would like
to see an island-wide distribution —that would be great— but right now this
is what we've purchased to date. And what does the County do when we
purchase lands? We have a funding source for that. It's called the PONC
maintenance fund. Point 25% of the property taxes deposited annually—
we have about 1.2 million dollars in this fund right now—that's
administered by Parks and Recreation. So Friends of the Park
agreements, memorandums of understanding between community groups
and P & R, and stewardship grants —that was something new— it just
started last year that the Parks & Recreation is taking applications
between mid-July and August 30 and there's a very specific on what the
moneys can be used for. So Hawaii County Charter, Section 10-16 has a
list of everything that can or can't be used for the fund and this is one of
the properties we will be purchasing, I would say in the next six months —
Kahuku coastal property. So thank you, that was just a brief presentation
on the commission but I'm sure you have some questions.
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TL: Do you have any questions?
W: What's the largest size property that you have purchased?
AK: The largest property we've purchased I'd say is Kawa. Seven hundred and
eighty-five acres in Kau, yeah, ocean front.
W: That's really great.
AK: Yeah. And we purchase it to retain an open space. The number one
reason we buy it is to eliminate the threat of development.
W: Yeah. That's really great. And so PONC properties —the public has free
access.
AK: Um-hum.
W: ....any time?
AK: Yes.
W: Or are there gates and there's like times?
AK: Well, I know for Kawa there's a — it's restricted to non-vehicular on one
side for the cultural sites so that way, you know, there's no damage, but
the other side does have vehicular access for a certain time every day. It's
locked by the County.
TL: I have a — and I guess it's just a question — if you have a willing seller— I
mean somebody says yeah, I want to — I'll give it to you, you know, an
easement or whatever, but if it gets delayed —what is the process then.
How do you keep that seller on the hook, for example?
AK: We've had very patient landowners in the past. I hate to say it but some of
them have been waiting three or four years for the County because we
can buy a land —we can buy a property at any given time out of order— it
doesn't have to be number one on the list. If the administration chooses
that it's— it's a urgency— it's a recommended property—then we can buy
it. So, you know, certain properties we've run into obstacles with land
court and —just unforeseen roadblocks, basically, so... Every property is
unique in itself, I would say...
HV: We also have to take in the contact— some of the properties that we're
looking at have archaeological features that once identified can slow down
the process because then you have to do — be investigative — identify—
come up with a burial plan if we're talking about remains and so forth so
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it's — it depends on the property and what's found during the investigative
process.
DY: Oh, Tom, this is Ike, yeah. Thank you for showing up, yeah.
AK: You're welcome. Thank you for inviting.
DY: I wanted to say that having visited with you — a lot of the mystery is gone
now. I think we're quite clear as to what the process is.
AK: Um-hum.
DY: And so I wanted to thank you for that. I wanted to also ask you if, if I give
you my email could you send me this presentation?
AK: Sure.
DY: OK. Thank you.
MB: Hey, so Tom... Question from Kona. This is Mark. So PONC will take on
easement requests, was that, am I correct on that?
AK: Yes.
MB: Yes. My other also — reading my notes — none of those have been done
yet though, correct?
AK: None of our easement requests have made it to the County Council
resolution step but we have it on our list.
MB: So —why haven't they made—there's just not a high enough priority or...
AK: I think it's more education. Our commissioners are, you know, not that
familiar with conservation easements and, you know, we have had a turn
around of commissioners so right now we have a whole new group —
almost a whole new group —so we'll be having a training actually at our
next meeting for conservation easements.
MB: Got it... So is it only conservation easements or is it easements? So let
me get to my point, right, so the state has many land —well, I should say
the state has some landlocked state land, correct? Whereby, let's take
Hualalai for example, there are several state forests, yet, no one can get
to them. Right? There's no access to them. In order to get to them you
have to trespass, which most people don't do. So — my question about
easement is, I mean, DLNR workers have access to the state forests but it
has not been negotiated with the landowner to allow public access for a
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variety of reasons, as you might come to. I mean, is it possible that PONC
would entertain — I'm not talking about conservation easement— but an
access easement to some of the state forest on Hualalai? Does that make
— is —does that make the list for PONC?
CM: Mark, this is Craig. Let me explain something. I think there's a little bit of
disconnect. Once the property is put on the list— it's evaluated by the
PONC commission. If it's put on the list then it's up to the members of the
Council then to submit a resolution to bring it forward. I think what Alex is
saying is that no council person has brought forward, to date, an
easement—whether it be conservation easement or regular easement for
the resolution. That's part of your hang up.
MB: That's part of my hang up, right? I mean — I'm just thinking about it real
time here, right? We have landlocked forest reserves that nobody except
state employees can get to. Right?
CM: Yeah.
MB: And thinking through this process can we negotiate with PONC and a
landowner access for the general public?
CM: No. See that's where you're having the disconnect, Mark. You don't
negotiate with PONC. You just put forward — let me break it down further.
You need some organization to come in and put together the proposal
packet first, right? Proposal packet— is the more detailed it is the more
they can stress the urgency of why you need to protect this area — or give
access to this area —the higher it'll be ranked by PONC. PONC then put
together the report—the report sent to the mayor and as well as council —
and then you have prioritized report— a prioritized list, sorry. Then it's up
to the members of the county council to then take that list and then act
upon the list. So there's no negotiation with PONC. PONC is like the
reviewing agency—excuse me —the reviewing body— cause once you put
together your packet they'll say OK this one looks good. We'll give it sixty
points and sixty points puts it at number 12 on the list. Whereas they'll
look at another property from another proposal —they'll say well this one
looks like seventy— so they'll go on the next step on the list or, you know,
whatever, I'm just making up numbers but...
MB: Sure, sure sure. I got it..
CM: ....it's that kind of thing. So there's not a negotiation with PONC.
MB: Understood...
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CM: PONC is [unclear] priority list and then it's up to the council people then to
pass the resolution. Once that resolution is passed, then property
management— Hamana and Alex put on a different hat— and then they go
and they negotiate for the price for that parcel, you know, within the realm
of the budget they're given by council.
MB: OK. OK. I get it. I understand. And then — can you explain a little bit about
this maintenance fund?
CM: OK. Let me...
TL: Mark can I make— interject one quick thing on your question for a minute.
MB: Sure.
TL: When you said that an organization has to bring the packet together— is
that something that GMAC could do?
CM: You could if you had the time. I've never seen [tape break] actually— OK
— let me put on the hat of the council now. Mark —what else — Mark I don't
know if you guys were live yet— but what I was telling Tom — I represent
both PONC and GMAC, OK, so I'm counsel for both of them — so as it
comes a time where it—where GMAC were to put together a proposal for
PONC — because I assist PONC in reviewing those applications— I
wouldn't be able to help GMAC put together their application — OK — let
me have that right out front. Also, as far as preserving or putting properties
up for preservation — I think you're going outside of the scope of GMAC. If
GMAC were to find someone to champion it for them —that would be
another issue. I know we've discussed — not as a board issue —the
possibility of four more board members or current board members forming
a separate organization and that kind of thing would be a perfect thing to
be the champion of this kind of initiative.
KD: I get one question. My turn. This is Kalani, ah?
Man: Hey, Kalani.
KD: So if—OK— so can we get one list of all our commissioners that represent
that—that PONC and can we work with them individually and have them
present it, right?
CM: No.
KD: And we just work with them.
CM: No, no, no. Cause you know why, Kalani...
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KD: Why?
CM: It's like you're trying to individually lobby judges.
KD: No but— in my, in my, wait, wait, wait— in my district you said there is
commissioners, right, like in my district, everybody's district, right?
CM: Yes.
KD: And that's the ones give the proposal, right? That's the representatives of
every district...
CM: No. No, they don't...
KD: [Unclear] commission...
CM: They don't give the proposal. What they do is they evaluate proposals
from all over the island. So they're...
KD: So they, they, they... But they don't put in one report— I heard earlier,
that, correct me if I'm wrong — but earlier was said that they, they do one
report, right? Of their district and what they find that is important...
CM: No.
KD: ....to be reviewed.
CM: No.
KD: That's not what the commission do?
CM: No. They don't do a report of their district. They do a report of the whole
island and they...
KD: As a whole...
CM: And they are one of nine votes for a particular parcel.
KD: So in all due respect then that means as an individual you have to just
submit 'em and they do it as a whole? That's what we're saying, right? So
in other words — if I like something be addressed — I going have to submit
`um on my own.
CM: Or you and a group of people. It doesn't have to be individual.
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KD: OK, but I cannot use the advisement of my representative commission to
say walk me through this application?
CM: No.
KD: And then hit up my county council person to have it addressed?
CM: What you should start it is with your county council person in the first place
and they can help you through the process, but the individual member of
PONC —they would have to only discuss the matters as a whole body.
Man: Sunshine.
CM: Yeah, the Sunshine. Just like you folks, yeah?
KD: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I understand the Sunshine but... But can we have
a list of who's on what district?
CM: Yes.
KD: Just to see?
CM: Yeah, the list is on the County website, yeah, under PONC. You only go
under PONC — look under the fact sheet and it tells you —just like you
folks —who represents what area and what your term is.
MB: So but easements or conservation easements and other easements are
acceptable to PONC?
CM: That is one of the things that PONC is authorized to look at for a
recommended purchase, yes.
MB: Awesome. OK. Thank you.
CM: It's just that they've never done it yet.
AK: Um-hum.
MB: Yeah, there's always a first.
Man: Always one...
AK: Yes.
CM: Somebody always got to go first.
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MB: Yup.
DY: So I have a question then. So if I understand you, what you've said,
GMAC as a body cannot nominate?
CM: See—when you look at the charter of GMAC — see—we'll call it the
charter of GMAC - because it's in the charter— it says GMAC —their job is
to advise state, federal and county agencies on matters pertaining to
access, hunting, cultural resources, that kind of thing. But, so, that's how
come I'm saying it's kind of tenuous for you folks as a body to do that
because that's not one of those — it's not advising.
DY: But what if, what if we advise PONC to look at an easement.
CM: When you going to advising PONC — that's the other part I was gonna just
bring up is you can also within, you know the last part of your folks charter
section, right, it says promulgate, reports or something like that, right?
DY: No, no, no. You see the thing that interests me is that our responsibility is
to advise agencies...
CM: Right...
DY: ....to do something, right, I mean, basically say, hey, guys, get this
easement over here can you guys go do something about it.
CM: Right.
DY: We could do that?
CM: Right. So what you could do — is if you folks get together as a body...
DY: Yeah.
CM: And you just say, OK, we want GMAC to tell the council —another
government agency—we want you to go look at — I don't know—just take
for something out of the blue, right, Finance Factors property—just out of
the blue, just something, right—we just want you to go look at that and
you as GMAC can send them that letter. But then you're not the proponent
or the sponsor putting together the package and running it through to the
end. Cause one of the most important things that Alex was telling you
folks —that I don't know if it's fully appreciated — is that how detailed the
report is, their submittal is — how willing the owner is —the higher it gets
ranked. And I think that's a fair statement.
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DY: Craig — I'm not so much, I'm kind of clear on the purchase of property—
think that's a very detailed kind of thing, but easements on the other hand
are just basically agreements, right? I mean between a property owner
and the county or the state.
CM: It's a lower level of purchase. It's not a purchasing fee but it is —you know
when they talk about the bundle of rights that come with a purchase of a
property. It's all but maybe like three sticks of the bundle of rights.
DY: Yeah, yeah, I understand that but what I'm saying is— in terms of, I don't
know how to say this legally, but in terms of the advising responsibility—
isn't that kind of a lower level? Because we're going to a —we're advising
another government agency that, you know, like for example Mark said
there's this easement that goes to the Hualalai area— so can we just
advise the mayor or the council to work on opening that easement.
CM: No. That's what I'm saying. That's what you can do. What I'm saying is —
it's hard for you folks as a part-time volunteer board to put together a full
on packet that will have that parcel ranked high enough. So, I mean, it's
possible, I mean if you folks want to donate a lot of time to do it— it's
possible— but it's also kind of on the edge of your folks kuleana, yeah.
DY: Yeah, OK, but...
KD: Sorry, OK, this is Kalani, ah? Um, so getting back to what Ike was saying
— so what if we have somebody to propose something and have them
address GMAC and then we go with one saying that we all agree that this
should be addressed and then have our county council look at it good —
with the advisement that, eh, we all agree that this is something good. And
then from there have PONC realize that, eh, this is one of the prioritized
list that should be prioritized in a high format— and have it looked at
accordingly. Because it comes from our commission, it comes from PONC
commission — that, yeah, it was addressed in a proper way. So even if I
get somebody for propose something but with the GMAC approval of like,
you know, like recommendation from GMAC saying that yeah, we would
like to see some kind of access like this be put up. Wouldn't that be
prioritized on the list and brought up, because now I think we'd get that
much power, right, to say, eh, under advisement from GMAC that we all
agreed and put it to a vote that, yeah, this is something that we should be
addressing, right?
TL: That would be the ideal, right...
KD: That's generally what we can do, right, I mean, being that we don't have
that much, right, we're volunteers, as you said. But I think as a quorum
think we get that power to say and recommend.
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CM: Kalani, you're more eloquent than me. That's what I was trying to say. I
defer to you.
TL: That would be the ideal, Kalani, what you just presented.
W: So wouldn't it be good to...
KD: Be careful what you ask for...
W: ....pinpoint a specific county council member—that's in the area.
CM: It's usually the representative of wherever the property is. And I just threw
out...
W: Yeah.
CM: ....a name of— it can be wherever— cause we're just speaking in
generalities.
W: But to advise the county council member- one is specific—to see if they
would pick up the ball.
CM: Yes.
W: Would that be more effective to pinpoint just one county council member
and ask them to pick up the ball.
CM: Mm... That, well...
W: Yeah, right.
CM: Yeah. It depends on politics, you know. Yeah.
Man: I think we're missing the point here is that— bottom line is somebody or
some group needs to prepare and submit an application.
W: Yeah, but GMAC can't do it because we're just advisory.
Man: According to Craig. But if you have members or if there's somebody on —
that you work with that can go through the application process and submit
it—with include in the application that GMAC supports this property—then
it's gonna go before the PONC commission and it should carry some
weight.
W: Yeah. We're just trying to figure out how to get to point A.
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AK: I'm sure in each of your respective council districts you must have
community groups that, you know, that might even champion these
properties so that's another thought to consider.
HV: The flip side it would be if somebody came and submitted an application to
GMAC and said that PONC advised us that we're going in the right
directions — same type of scenario. How would you guys view— how
would you as a body view that information. Would it matter, would it carry
more weight as a presented subject. So that's the same criteria that our
commission would face as well. But bottom line — application — provide
supporting evidence and if the application is solid it has merit. Then the
commission's gonna take a hard look at it.
TL: When you say supporting evidence you're talking about like, you know,
recommendations from our committee or others or financing options that
area available —that kind of stuff?
HV: Talking more about information regarding the — related to the property—
what is its significance? It's not just metes and bounds —there's more to it
— and it's all part of the application.
W: Would a petition help of people in support?
HV: Yes.
DY: That's part of the application.
AK: Yes, community support is very important.
HV: We just closed on a — on Banyan Tree Park — part of their presentation is
they went through a petition process. Prior to application and during the
application process they wanted to remind everyone that this is the
direction that they wanted to go —so I would say yes.
W: Right. Good job.
HV: I hope that helps.
TL: Anyone else?
AK: And you're welcome to call us if you have anymore questions.
TL: No, yeah, no, you've been very helpful. I really appreciate, you know, in
your tutelage of[unclear]. Any other? Anybody else?
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AK: Oh, we have our commissioner also, Willie Myers who's here. I don't know
if you wanted to come and say anything?
TL: Our commissioner, right, OK.
Man: Oh, Ike, Hilo district.
DY: Hilo district.
Man: Yeah.
DY: Oh, so you da guy [unclear].
Man: Yeah. When I sucker, you just go to the [unclear] tell him, 'eh, if they like
what, if they get any areas that they like nominate, right. And then they fill
out the paperwork and then they turn 'em in to us and then we look at 'em
and we give 'em some points like that. Yeah, so we was down in Keaau
last week. It's just like— and, and who and who we talked to?
AK: The Puna CDP.
Man: Yeah, and then letting them know that they can let their community and
organization know that we out there and if they can go and look for any
kind of areas, any kind of properties that the public can use, right, for
access go fishing, throw net, camp out and stuff like that, right? You know
and then they submit the application so — like everybody said the more
supporting evidence you get it of the area really good and if you get your
council member supporting that area too is real good. This commission is
really good, you know.
W: Yeah, so PONC purchased properties you can usually camp and make
fires?
Man: Oh! I mean, you know, if you going camping I don't know how you go
camp, but me when I go camp I make bonfire, ah? Burnt tires. Nah, nah,
nah.
W: No barbecue, barbecue.
Man: I like make sure everybody know I stay camping. But I think one of the
things that I find out kind of interesting —the public going down the road
that a lot of these areas also have historical sites on 'em. And so now we
gotta educate the public and let 'em know or create some kind of buffer at
these areas, so they don't trespass in these historical areas, you know,
like burials, things like that— house sites —you know, so we got to educate
the public too and let 'em know.
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W: Yeah.
Man: Cause it's an important key to, to the area, you know.
Man: Eh, you guys, you guys get 'em.
TL: I appreciate that. OK. We're gonna move on here. I do thank you.
HV: Thank you.
TL: All — it's very appreciated.
Man: Thank you very much.
W: Thank you.
TL: OK. We're gonna move on to the next section here —where do we go from
here and essentially this is a continuation of the discussion that we started
last month on how to address the messages that we're receiving on
introduced species, endangered species and how it's affecting us and our
activities for hunting and some of the other things that are out there and
I'm gonna be followed by Nick Agorastis from the DLNR, Natural Reservist
who just walked in here a little while ago. And so I'm gonna go ahead and
I have a little PowerPoint that I want to share with you that essentially just
kind of summarizes the questions and observations that we've gotten both
not only from members of the commission but other groups and so forth
that are out there. Any why it's so important that our voice be heard
because as you'll see as we go through this thing is our voices being kind
of disregarded in a lot ways and so I'm gonna go catch Nora here for a
second and so she can help me get set-up with the computer and I'll be
right back.
BK: Hi, Chair Tom. If Nora's there I'd like her to remove Kona from the upper
right hand corner of the screen cause it really blocks off our vision of the —
we'd love to see Willie-Joe. So she can remove that. Thank you.
DY: He's pretty hard to misss.
TL: OK. Am I good to go here? OK. Some of the observations you've had and
some of the questions that we have going forward is are we taking proper
advantage of our introduced species and I know that sounds a little
counter intuitive here, but there's a lot of things that we have out there that
people have brought up to us that might be used as —trees for example,
avocado or other things that might be used to draw pigs and other animals
away from certain areas rather than just sticking with strictly native
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species. Also there's a question is, you know, on the environmental
experiement with fences and what does that have in the long term and as
we've all here been striving for is the forest without fences. So with that
I'm gonna go ahead and move forward. You know, what we hear from
DLNR frequently and their many partners is that our forest evolved without
hoofed mammals in their midst. And what we also hear is along with that
frequently is that half of Hawaii's forests have already been lost. And you
see that in a lot of the literature that's being presented to school kids,
other people have been the Rainfall of the Forest and that's followed with
alien species, such as feral pigs, goats, and by extension sheep and deer,
you [unclear] vegetation leaving bare ground opening for alien plants and
how they may then go ahead and consume more water and increase run
off and this seems to be then referring back now to a water resource issue
or water resource question. And along with that they say then controlling
these and other threats requires large scale effort to protect these
irreplaceable natural assets. Well, natural assets is something that's kind
of important for us to be discussing here, and again this is from the Rain
Follows the Forest. What you see here is not pig, sheep, deer or goats.
That what you have is half of the forest is gone because of development
and that is an alien species, no question. But it's not the ones that we
typically hear about as they want to remove from our forests except
maybe — and what I have over here is a map — a population map of Hawaii
and this population that we have is pretty much centered around Oahu
and you can see that the other islands, you know, Hilo has, you know, one
—the red is 5,000 people per square mile. Maui central might be one of
these areas also —that might be of concern. But the Big Island certainly
isn't, yet controlling these as they say other threats requires a large scale
effort to protect these irreplaceable natural assets. So here —what we
have is —the watershed plan for the Big Island. Now it seems to me that
Oahu is one of the problems — but it's the Big Island that's gonna suffer
the consequence in this case and the red is priority one — the mustard is
priority two — both of these areas, which we'll get to, are scheduled for
eradication. And this is in their general, long term plans. Now getting back
to our animals and do they belong here even — is that our original
constitution took along with the general statement of agricultural
resources, fish, mineral, forest, water, land — game was also considered
along with the other natural resources and in 1978 there was a
Constitutional Convention just one year before the Palila lawsuit that
deleted that former section referring to game as a natural resource as an
unspecified change and it's also noted though that if that amendment or
that change either alters the sense, meaning or effect of that amendment
or that provision of the constitution then essentially they're saying that it's
not ratified. And our current constitution says that all public natural
resources are held in trust by the state for the benefit of the people and
that held in trust part is kind of interesting because it seems like there's
really no trust when it comes to this state and I want to get into that as we
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go forward here. So we have a constitution that says that game and other
natural resources are — belong here — and one of the natural resources
that they talked about of course is game and game is a natural resource, I
mean it's —well —they don't think it is but it's an animal that can survive in
the wild without the aid of man. And if we have any issues here, if we have
shipping issues, we have transportation issues, we have — some of these
other animals that depend upon man for their survival or for their help are
gonna suffer long term, whereas some of our animals that we have in the
wild who have acclimated here have been part of the biota for hundreds of
years at the least, thousands in a couple, you know, do very nicely in spite
of what goes on with man as long as the weather situation is right. So
beyond the constitutional potential that we have here —we have the
powers and duties of the department and I know that Mark and some of
the others have brought this up over and over and over. But it's something
that's worth a revisiting because their department shall — I mean they are
mandated to manage and administer the wildlife and wildlife resources of
the state and they're not doing that. They're also charged — and there's a
lot of inbetween here — but they're also charged —for my purpose anyway
—to preserve, protect and promote public hunting. This is not preserving,
promoting or protecting public hunting and, you know, these lands are all
scheduled for eradication and the issue here is that and we'll talk about it
here in one second — but, you know, here we talk about the public trust—
none of these lands were brought to the public for review or consultation
before they were scheduled in this plan and Nick, who's here tonight,
works with NARS. I understand NARS works with the watershed, right?
You guys are, you guys are — if I understood Lisa correctly you guys
manage the watershed — this watershed?
NA: [Unclear— not speaking in mic]
TL: Yeah. OK. So don't take this personal. You know evolution includes man
and we have —they talk about evolution —our forest evolved, you know,
without—with — not exactly true, I mean the pig's been here for almost
2,000 years but, but things evolve without man, with man and because of
man. And things get introduced without man, with man, or because of
man. And here in Hawaii, species are considered "native" if they are
thought to be — or to have arrived here without the aid of man. Anything
else here is either introduced or non-native. Now, you know, just as a
practical manner, we can't expect to live in an evolving world without
contact with other species or other species finding their way here on their
own such as this tsunami in Japan happened recently that had these miles
of debris floating towards Hawaii and the mainland. But introductions are
common and they're necessary, you know, they were carried out for the
purpose of improving our health or welfare or for reasons of recreation or
nostalgia and many of our introduced species here, besides food, were
done just for that purpose. Now, the Polynesian introductions we have
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coconuts, breadfruit, yams, ti leaves, the rat probably was brought over
here, gourds, pig, jungle fowl, sugar cane, dogs, taro. All of these things
were brought here for food, because there was nothing here naturally
occurring to provide for the Polynesians as they arrived here. Now, excuse
me, western introductions to Hawaii in 239 years or 240 years ago —they
introduced what we call ungulates or you know we have pigs, sheep,
goats, deer, cattle. These were all introduced and many of them were
released into the wild or escaped into the wild and became part of our
biota, actually here, in many cases. Now this watershed protection and
restoration plan —which I want to refer you to here is—you know the
language that DLNR uses in presenting these programs to the public in
particular, is a little misleading and you know basically made for
sensational purpose. But this action here is the essential first step for them
in this restoration of all these red areas and mustard areas is to rid these
areas of hoofed animals from Priority One and Priority Two areas. And
they go about saying the reason for this is that these animals are
demolishing forest by trampling, uprooting and devouring plants. Well
that's not exactly accurate but— and another thing too is that they say that
a single pig can uproot an area the size of a football field in a week. A
football field is a little over an acre so there's —the carrying capacity of our
forests are roughly 100 pigs per square mile, you know, you're talking one
pig for every six acres —there wouldn't be a forest left if this actually was
accurately or if the pigs actually followed this schedule here. But the
question that keeps coming up to us — at this commission — over and over
and over— and questions that we have brought up —that's not being
answered by anybody and is —what gives the DLNR or anybody else for
that matter, the right to decided if an introduced speicies belongs here or
not. In Molokai, a 2012 survey showed that 40% of the food consumed
comes from subsistence sources: hunting, fishing, gathering and other
homegrown produce. Mark shared with us a University of Hawaii study
that showed that Hawaii Island hunters consumed about 400,000 pounds
of game each year. It's not like these animals are not utilized and not
necessary here. So again the question comes back—what gives the
DLNR or anyone else, you know, the right to decided if these introduced
species belong here or not and who is it that decides that we are to
remove the non-native and replace it with all the native in our watershed
areas? This stuff is held in trust for the people of Hawaii. That's what our
constitution says — our current constitution says that. And it's held in trust
yet we —these things are happening without our consent. And in the case
of water collection, for example, you know, if they're gonna replace
everything with non-native, you know, that even, that wouldn't even be
wise in many areas. And again, who is it that decides that fencing —
whether or not you have step overs is an appropriate long term,
sustainable management for our forests. And lastly, ecosystem
management—ecosystem management should maintain ecosystems in
the appropriate condition to achieve desired social benefits. That would be
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you and me —the people. And the social benefits are defined by society.
In other words it's us, you know, who this land is held in trust for— it is us
who should define what ecosystem management is — it's not scientists or
science or scientists and so this is the direction that we're moving forward,
you know, if they're not listening to us, we need to establish its voice and
as Tony and others have mentioned, we need to be getting involved, so
with that I'm gonna leave you and anybody has any questions I'll entertain
them. Anybody? No? OK. Next. [Unclear] respond or give us your
thoughts on this.
NA: Good evening everyone.
W: Good evening.
TL: This is Nick Agorastis. Am I saying that right?
NA: Yeah, Agorastis. The [sounds like metra area] reserve.
TL: I'm gonna leave you — if you have any questions — comments or...
NA: My understanding when we talked on the phone was I was gonna come
and provide an alternate perspective to things.) wasn't really sure exactly,
you know, what I could provide as far as information to you. I took a few
notes listening to your talk.
TL: I emailed it to you, did you get it?
NA: No.
TL: Oh, you didn't. Yeah, I did, I emailed it to you right after you emailed me
this afternoon.
NA: Oh, OK, sorry. My Dad's ill so...
TL: Oh, no problem, I thought you were advised of what was going on here.
NA: You know, I, I, you've probably heard this before, there's probably not a
whole lot that I can tell you guys that's different than you haven't already
heard — I think DLNR has a —and DOFAW in — specifically has a multiple
use mandates. And we have to try and balance all of the different needs
and issues that are brought up, not only by the community but by the
legislators. Sometimes we don't do the best job that we can, sometimes
we're more focused on other portions of things — I would say that the
people that are working for DLNR are very passionate people. They are
people from our society. I'm born and raised her on the Big Island. So they
are part of the community. We're not these scientists from far off lands
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that, you know, are just bringing this stuff up out thin air. I work for Natural
Area Reserve System [NARS]. We have a very clear mandate and it's
only one portion of DLNR. I, myself, sometimes are — am conflicted with
things because I am a big proponent of the multiple use mandates of
DLNR. I like to camp. I like to hunt. My particular job is very straight
forward and it says you will manage things for our native ecosystems.
That's — and it's very clear.
TL: This is NARS now you're talking about— NARS proper.
NA: Yes, the same thing for NARS.
TL: OK.
NA: I can speak a little bit to the — more of the Division of Forrestty and Wildlife
— but I can speak to more detail with the Natural Area Reserve
Management stuff. You know, in your presentation when you went through
and you mentioned Chapter 183 and you had a couple of bulletins up
there —you had only a few of the what I'll call mandates of the department
of the division —you only mentioned one in twelve, but there are
significantly more than that and I think that alludes to the many different
hats that DOFAW and DLNR has to wear. I'm very fortunate in my job that
things are spelled out very clearly for me. I think the Forestry section has a
much harder balancing act to do. With that said, we're very fortunate on
this island that we have, you know, well over 600,000 acres of public land.
A very small percentage of that, under 20%, is actually fenced. I think
those plans that you mentioned up in your PowerPoint were very pie in
the sky. I can see how they can alarm people. But from a guy that runs
crews out on the ground daily, it would be very difficult for us to ever
achieve that in my lifetime, let alone somebody else's, even with a very
aggressive legislature behind us with ample funding of which we're always
year-to-year so...
W: Achieve what exactly?
NA: Excuse me?
W: You're saying to achieve "that" — achieve what exactly are you thinking it
is?
NA: Oh, well, when he was — sorry, and I...
W: Yeah.
NA: ....the presentation —when he was referring to the Priority One and
Priority Two areas. That's a very ambitious goal. Under our current—with
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our current funding things — extremely unlikely that we'd even get close to
that.
W: Mm... Particularly removing all ungulates?
NA: Or fencing.
W: And, yeah...
NA: Anything like that. I mean, like I said —we have well over 600,000 acres
on this island. Almost closer to 700,000 and really in the forest reserve
system, which makes up the bulk of that and I know that— I'm sorry— let
me rephrase that. I'll keep Mauna Kea separate.
W: Mm...
NA: Let's —you know— I know that's a hot topic...
W: Mm...
NA: If you looked at everything else —there's very, very little of it is fenced.
Most of that is in areas that I manage —the Natural Areas Reserves — and
of that—we're still under 20% of the Natural Area Reserves. Mauna Kea,
know, is a hot topic. I don't even begin to try and bring that up because I
don't think there's any...
TL: Yeah, no, we're — one of the thing here though — in your lifetime that may
not be an accomplishment, nor maybe in mine, but this is a goal that when
Aila was the chairman at our meeting in Kona in September— said, yeah,
if I had the money today, that's what would happen. I would do that. I
mean this is —there's no — it's not, you know, we gotta get this done by
2050 or we're gonna forget it— it's like this is the plan and so it's gonna
continue on. We have a plan for our kids too and, you know, ultimately,
you know, given your opportunity right here in the funding and the thing
over, you know, year after year after year—that would be what you're
looking at, right?
NA: Those are currently my marching orders, yes.
TL: Yeah. So that, that's our concern. It may not be for today. And it may not
be, you know, for my lifetime, but I have grandchildren, one who is just
now starting to become interested and I'm thrilled. You know and yes I can
probably take him hunting today but will his grandchildren be able to do it
and that's the issue for almost anybody here in this room.
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NA: I don't think that you'll find anybody at DOFAW that is an advocate for not
being able to hunt in the future for anybody. There may be differences of
opinion but I think everybody wants at DOFAW wants to see that
continue. I say that wholeheartedly, I really do not think that...
TL: Well the goal of GMAC is sustainable real hunting experiences in the
perpetuity. And one of the things that we have in the legislature and I don't
know if that had anything to do with the reason why it got shot down or not
but our suggestions were — like with NARS, for example, I know for
example that in NARS before you guys start putting up the snares you
have people that are going in there, you know, for days without seeing
pigs. And, you know, I don't even go in there anymore, you know, I mean
it's just wasting my time, my dogs are panting and I'm not getting any
game. So, you know, ultimately, then they send in staff hunters and you
know they, you know, ultimately get a few more pigs possibly and then
you get into the final stage, which usually is snaring. The question that we
have is why if you go days with dogs especially— and not see game —
would it be necessary even to fence?
NA: From my perspective, and I'm gonna speak on a personal level...
TL: No, I understand...
NA: ....as a manager on this island. I have a very finite budget and I have to
accomplish certain goals that are set. Some of them I set for my staff and I
and others are set for me by either the policy or the direction or the
initiatives that are set down. When it comes to selecting certain areas that
are going to be high priority areas — either because of their uniqueness or
their impactness or things that still remain — it may be habitat of a rare
plant or rare birds or something like that. It's not the— it's the long, slow
degradation of things. It might not happen today, you know, it might not
happen tomorrow, it might not happen next week or even next month —
it's — can somebody be there to stand watch every day to make sure that
when something does come around that there's something there to protect
and we can't be out there so it—from our perspective with the limited staff
and limited funds it comes down to a cost benefit analysis or an analysis
of— is this worth it? Is this something that we're supposed to be doing...
W: If you're limited by a, by a budget, like you say, why would you like in Kau
make fences that you know go from east to west. Why don't you just make
smaller kipuka areas that are the most important areas and then that way
you know there could be passage for migratory animals and hunters to go
without having to get, you know, some kind of special permission and key
to get in? That's a couple different questions.
NA: OK. I'm not sure which Kau project you're referring to...
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W: I'm just wondering why if the budget is limited why can't you just pick
certain smaller areas in islands — in an island style — in a kipuka style to
fence rather than making these long fences that block the migratory
patterns of the game animals...
TL: I think what you're saying is that, you know, Willie-Joe has a — he works
with that [unclear] out in Laupahoehoe and they have a fencing project
now— I think it's 5,000 acres, if I'm not mistaken. But that started off as
like a 50 acre deal — 500 acres possibly maybe at the most.
WJ: Yeah. I mean it— the goal is to get rid of them all. So to answer Nani's
question —why not make small kipukas — is the goal is they don't want
small kipukas they want the whole thing.
W: But if they're not budget for it...
WJ: I, 1 agree. The money will get there eventually. They may not make it— like
you said not today, tomorrow or next month, but when it's there it's
happening and I might be biased but I see it in Kohala, I see it happening
in Laupahoehoe.
Man: Yeah.
TL: Yeah, what's happening there?
MB: Tom? Hey, Tom, I got a question.
TL: Yes, sir...
MB: For Nick. Nick walk us through a process —the process by which a
potential NARS area is identified through the decision of we're gonna
fence and eradicate. How does that process work and where does public
discourse actually happen during that process?
NA: OK. So a couple of things that were brought up. Willie-Joe mentioned
Kohala. I'll speak to that cause that's something that I'm more familiar
with. Let's see —this —from well back when I was in —just coming out of
high school and college — I actually participated in the Natural Area
working group — meetings and the riff macks [sp?] as a community
member long before I was an employee of the division. So to kind of
speed things up though, as I started. I started out as an assistant,
resource assistant, paid for by—through the university— and basically my
first five or six years were going out there and documenting the forest—
basically measuring the forest via transits — should I look at that and talk
or...
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Man: Yeah.
NA: OK. And through that by spending weeks if not months out in the
mountains you kinda get to know an area —you've got to know which
areas are of high quality from a native vegetation standpoint—where the
native birds are—where there's high concentrations — in Kohala— high
concentrations of pigs. Where the ecosystem altering weeds are located,
which ones have good topography. There's a whole bunch of different
things going —for things like the Kohala Watershed Partnership that was
established and then the Kohala Watershed Management Plan which was
developed —there was basically years and years of field work that went
into, you know, where the important places are both from a native
ecosystem standpoint and which areas, at least from DOFAW's
perspective and some of the community members are the important areas
for the hunting. And so if you look at Kohala Watershed Management Plan
the easily accessible areas, even though there's a lot of high quality forest
in those areas —those were left out of the watershed fencing areas. So
once identified then it goes through the management process — or, sorry,
the environmental review process where groups, although this wasn't, the
GMAC wasn't then — as you guys all know—there were other community
groups that were notified. There were countless meetings out in Kohala.
Honestly, that— I think some good stuff came from them — but I don't think
they really amounted to anything cause they were just huge shouting
matches —fast forward ten, fifteen years —the Kohala Watershed
Management Plan is gone through this process as spelled out by Chapter
343 — it's approved. OK, then what?At that point we had already had a
starting point in Kohala and there's 100 acre rare bog in Kohala and that
was —we did a separate environmental assessment for that and in 1997
we started fencing it and by 1998 it was complete and it took us to 2000 —
the year 2000 to get it so there are no pigs —and then there was follow-up
ginger control. So, you're asking me a long question, so I'm trying to give
you as detailed a response.
So first things that will go into that is we'll set up a bunch of transex and
transex are ways of measuring activity of ungulates, birds, what kinds of
weeds are in the forest, how much weeds are in the forest. Things that are
starting to come up on our radar. For example, when the first set of
transex in Kohala was read in 1995 —there was no fireweed on any of the
transex. We re-read that five years later in 2000, we had fire weed on one
station on one transex. Fast forward another five years and it was on
every transex but not every station. So that's a method for us to kind of
track things, we see things coming, there's nothing we can do about it, but
those are the kinds of things and so that's, that's the first process and then
you go through this long process of trying to figure out is this area
important, is it worth it, what kinds of resources are in it, you know, there's
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obvious things. You guys are all forest users —you know that there's pigs
out there — you know I was finding amazing things like black Franklin and
ring-necked pheasants in a place that gets 300 inches of rain a year. That
surprises me and blew my mind. We didn't find a lot of them but they were
there. Continuing on, you know, long story short— so we do our
monitoring, we do a baseline transex—then somebody, somebody on the
staff usually makes up — draws up a plan that has been vetted, you know
exactly when you put those fence lines or those watershed units in a
management plan and they are, they're kind of conceptual. We have a
pretty good idea of where they're gonna go, and why they're gonna go
there, but until the fence crews actually get out there on the ground, you
know, once the fence is actually cut in —taking into account topography so
we're not trying to take advantage of any topography that's there. OK fast
forward some more —fence is done —we get in there to animal control.
The division has a policy that the public is granted first opportunity to go in
there and take out as many animals as they want.
W: Can I interrupt you? So NARS definition of hunting is to eradicate...
NA: No.
W: Even though they're mandated by the DLNR...
NA: Excuse me. Gnat flying around, I must smell bald... NARS does not hunt.
We do control. And...
W: But you'll get— let hunters go in for their last hurrah?
NA: We do, we do allow that. We are required to do that. That has been
something...
W: Right. I'm just wondering if that's NARS' definition of hunting?
NA: Is to allow people to go in there?
W: Is that— or have hunters have their last hurrah?
NA: Oh, I see what you're getting at.
W: I mean, right, because DLNR says —well they're mandated to support the
hunters and the game animals. But NARS can go above that?
NA: NARS is mandated — NARS is very specific. If you, and that's why I
mentioned —when you mentioned Chapter 183 — he only mentioned sub-
section one and twelve in his talk and there's several more cause DLNR
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has, as you guys all know, multiple mandates. Not just the game or not
just the watershed.
W: Yeah, but it NARS exempt from upholding DLNR obligations to support
hunting and game animals?
NA: That is not the primary purpose of Natural Area Reserves...
MC: Hey, Nick. It's Mark in Kona. Let me ask you — so if I got this right there's
600,000 acres, roughly 700 —20% of that is fenced. What's the plan on
the books for the next three, four, five years in terms of fencing. How
much more is gonna get fenced and moved over into NARS?
NA: OK. I'll pick the quick ones. There are no other Natural Area Reserves
being proposed at this time that I'm aware of. I go to those - the NARS
commission meetings which happen fairly regularly and there aren't— at
least not on this island. There's a couple Natural Area Reserves on other
islands that are pending. Sorry. I lost my train of thought. Repeat your
questions again.
MB: Well, it's just— so we got 20% of our public land is fenced now. Right? I
think that was your statement. My question is —what's on the books for
the next five to ten years.
NA: OK.
MB: So what you're telling me is —what you said was there are no — no
additional NARS projects...
NA: No, no. no. No, sorry, if I misunderstood your original question. It was —
my understanding of your original question were there anymore
nominations for new natural area reserves. I don't think anything's gonna
get turned over into Natural Area Reserves. There are several NARS
projects that are on the books.
MB: Well, so what I'm looking for, Nick, is what's fenced, fenced. That's it?
NA: No.
MB: Or are there areas that aren't fenced that quote unquote have been
approved by the NARS commission that are gonna get fenced.
NA: Yes.
MB: Yes. How many more acres, Nick? And where are they?
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NA: Don't quote me on the numbers but I'm gonna guess that there's probably
six thousand acres in Kohala that's approved in the Kohala Watershed
Management Plan and that includes not just Natural Area Reserves that
includes some forest reserves, some private land. There are currently four
thousand acres — I think it's a little more than that—4800 in Puu Makaala
Natural Area Reserve that is on the books. Laupahoehoe, as Willie-Joe is
A on the Laupahoehoe Advisory Committee —that nothing has been
approved yet but there is proposed fencing in there. I think it's over 2,000
but I don't think it's over 3,000. But I do want to clarify a couple of things
so that I am clear. I don't think we've hit the 20% threshold of DOFAW
lands on this island because there's more fencing in Natural Area
Reserves than there is in Forest Reserves and we haven't even hit 20% in
the Natural Area Reserves —even with the proposed fencing that I just
mentioned. In addition to that—there is a boundary fence along Ocean
View and along or that goes down below the mac nut orchards, which will
in essence put a fence along the entire boundary of Manuka. There are no
current plans for any animal control. That is more to address our
encroachment issues cause we have over 20 encroachments, where
people are building houses and various other kinds of, you know,
anything from driveways to watersheds, rain sheds and houses in a
Natural Area Reserve, basically in public land. Does that help to answer
your question?
MB: So that's a yeah, I've got, anywhere from twelve to thirteen thousand
acres that are on the books to be fenced.
NA: Correct.
MB: In addition to the 120. And that's all you know of? So is Manuka going to
get fenced?
NA: Yes, that's what I, 1 just mentioned that is a perimeter fence and it has
three segments. One that goes down along Road to the Sea, of which we
have several encroachments, so that fence does a couple of things. From
your guys —from a lot of people's perspective it's there for animal control.
While that is —that may very well be part of the goal —the goal is to stop
the encroachments cause we have well over 166 neighbors along the
Manuka Natural Area Reserve and we have several encroachments on
that.
MB: Um-hum. So how many acres is Manuka?
NA: Manuka is 25,500 acres.
MB: So that's a total of 12 plus 25 —that's 37,000 acres.
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NA: OK.
MB: In addition — I'm just kinda keeping track, that's all.
NA: Yeah, I'm sorry I didn't bring, you know, more direct numbers...
MB: Yeah...
NA: ....to you. I know Lisa Hadway made a presentation to you folks, I don't
know, maybe even more than a year ago by now, but she had more very
specific maps for you folks with...
MB: Um-hum.
NA: ....more acreage or very detailed acreage and detailed maps and
percentages and I don't want to go against anything that she said — I'm
trying to go off of memory here and let you guys know what has already
been approved.
Man: Sorry, Mark. Were you done?
MB: Yeah. Go ahead. [Unclear]
Man: So that Kohala —you said 6,000 acres —why does that include outside of
the NARS spectrum — I mean you were saying some is in forest reserve?
NA: Yeah, some of that is in forest reserve, some of it is private property and
that's what was proposed to the watershed partnership. And that's
everybody agreed on the partnership and that's what was put forth in the
environmental assessment and management plan.
MB: So, Nick? Is there an EIS done on this?
NA: An EIS done for—when you say...
MB: Yeah. When you guys erect fences, I mean, is there an environmental
impact statement that it has to be done...
NA: There....
MB: Or even in...
NA: There is an environmental assessment that has been done. It is now an
exempted activity— management— I'm not sure on the exact terminology
— but it is an exempted...
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MB: So what does that mean that — and environmental — OK— so let's say and
EA is done but now you don't have to do an EA when you erect 37,000
acres of fence?
NA: No.
MB: No?
NA: It's...
MB: So the state has exempted itself...
NA: No...
MB: No?
NA: No, the environmental — sorry, I'm trying to think of the name — Office of
Environmental Quality Control — OEQC — exempted the state. That is a
community board —that's a voted on board — people are put in place on
there.
MB: Are there hunters on that board?
NA: I'm not sure of the make-up. You'd have to check with OEQC.
MB: OK. Thanks.
NA: But to answer your question — is an environmental assessment done each
time a fence is erected? No, sometimes there's replacement of old fences,
existing fences, if they're short segments in the past we used to have and
exemption for— it could be no bigger than 10 acres. But it didn't— it didn't
give a linear distance on that, so it kind of left it open for interpretation.
And then that went back to OEQC and they, they didn't see the purpose in
having us go through an environmental assessment each time we want to
erect a fence. Having said that, as Willie-Joe said, or has been a part of—
we're going through the Laupahoehoe forest management plan currently.
It is going to — once it has been approved by the LAC, which is the
Laupahoehoe Advisory Committee, and then it is approved to go out to the
public, then it will be — I can assure you that the GMAC will get it's copy to
review. So it— most of the large scale fences still go through the
environmental review process. One way or another— I hope that helps.
Man: I have a question...
Man: So who...
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Man: I have a question...
Man: Go ahead...
DY: Nicholas you mentioned that the OEQC is an elected body?
NA: I believe some of them are elected or they are put in by the chairs of eaah
department that— so like a — many of the commissions are groups that are
put out there —the Department of Ag will have a person, DLNR will have a
person, Department of Health will have a person on it...
DY: But they're not popularly voted on?
NA: No. I...
DY: OK. So...
NA: Sorry, I may have misspoke.
D: Tom, this is Dave in Kona. Can I maybe give some clarification on that.
TL: Absolutely...
D: Yeah, sorry, Nick.
NA: Hi, Dave...
D: I think if you're talking about the Office of Environmental Quality Control —
that is a state agency which is attached to the Department of Health — and
it has a director who is appointed by the governor and confirmed by the
senate and if you're talking about the environmental council —which is a
body of up to fifteen volunteers —who are also appointed by the governor
and confirmed by the senate — and that is the body that has the rule
making authority under Chapter 343. So Chapter 343 lays out the
environmental review process, requirements in a big way— but then the
environmental council has the rule making authority over Hawaii
Administrative Rules 11-200, which are the rules and regulations about for
instance, the exemption, how the exemption process works and all of that
— and what the environmental council does with the exemption list that
each department has — is they review the exemption list and concur with
the agency's decision on its exemption list. And in fact, there's actually
right now the environmental council — I think they just opened a comment
period. DLNR has gone through a process of trying to consolidate all of
the exemption that's from the different divisions and the different programs
into one department-wide exemption list and I believe the comment period
on that is currently open to the environmental council.
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DY: So I just wanted to make that clarification —that it is really not an elected
body.
D: Correct.
DY: An appointed body...
NA: Sorry if I misspoke...
DY: No, I, you know, I just wanted to make sure that we understood, so...
Man: So who in DOFAW allows or gives the OK to fence more fence in the
forest reserves? You know, outside of NARS? Whose decision is that?
NA: On the district level it'll be the forestry management—there currently is —
there isn't one — Steve Bergfeld used to be the Forestry Manager and he
is now our...
Man: Right...
NA: ....branch manager. I think there are several — nobody operates in a
vaccum by any means — if something is proposed it goes in house and it's
given —there's an opportunity for comment by all the different sections
and ultimately it comes down to whomever is proposing to do that work.
Man: Hum. OK.
NA: And then it'll go up through the branch manager— goes up the chain.
Eventually, it's got to get approved by the chairman and the board.
TL: We're gonna have to start thinking about moving on here... But I do have
a question about that. When you start looking at some of this fencing stuff
—when do you start looking at trying to use federal funds to do it? Cause
federal funds — if you do save all — let's see if we can the [unclear—
sounds like project] eight, four, five [unclear] dollars —there is supposed to
be a comment period and well not a comment period, it's really for public
input on any of these projects of which federal dollars are — and I don't
know anybody here who's been invited to comment on any of those things
— but who, who from the public actually provides that, that to the feds
when they get into these projects?
NA: The only project that I can think of on, you know, right here, right now that
has federal funds involved in it—would be the replacement of the Mauna
Kea Forest Reserve fence.
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TL: Is that Pittman-Robertson?
NA: Honestly, I couldn't tell you. From the Natural Area Reserve standpoint—
all of our funding comes from the NARS and the capitol improvement
budget, which is that Rain Follows the Forest initiative.
TL: We're gonna...
DY: I have another kind of general question. So Nicholas, can you tell me if
there is a — in DLNR — is there a — like a coordinating body that takes a
more expansive view of what DLNR does, like, you know, looks at
Aquatics and Forestry and, you know, see that everything is kinda going in
a director or is that the duty of the board or chair?
NA: Yeah. Most of the sections and when I speak of sections of Division of
Forestry and Wildlife —there's a Wildlife Na Ala Hele; NARS and Forestry.
DY: Right, right.
NA: You know, anything that goes from a section is then looked over by the
branch manager and then on up. I don't think there's a single committee
so to speak that looks at— is this project taking into consideration all the
different mandates of DLNR.
DY: Thanks.
TL: I have one more question, if you don't mind, and in the Rain Follows the
Forest, you know, all this fencing that may or may not get done in the near
term, far term or whatever— but essentially it looks like and if I understand
Lisa correctly— you folks are administering that program, right, at NARS?
NA: No. No that is a DLNR-wide or a Division of Forrestry and Wildlife and
Watershed partnership initiative. The moneys go out to the different
watershed partnerships — public or private — and DOFAW in general. But
not, not just NARS, no.
TL: I'm —well I'm not gonna try to...
NA: I'll give you quick example— like the cattle fence that's at the top of Hilo
Forest Reserve. That's being paid for by watershed CIP funds.
TL: Um-hum.
NA: And all they're trying to do is just get the cattle out of the forest.
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TL: Right. No, I was referring to like this, you know, the Priority One, Priority
Two issues primarily. And on those Priority One and Priority Two issues -
that essentially is turning that—those areas into a NARS — are they not?
Essentially. Not a NAR in name even, but, they're being treated as a
NARS, right?
NA: I guess it depends on your perspective, I mean, the forest reserves have a
mandate to protest watershed areas. That's why they were started. But,
you know, from a hunter's perspective —yeah, they might look at that as —
all right, well there's no game in it—you're essentially calling it a NAR.
TL: Well fence and eradicate would be sort of, you know, that same
perspective. That's basically is what we're looking at— and, you know, the
public doesn't have much, much input and this water— and I'm not trying
to lay this on you — but this whole watershed thing here is really way out of
context over what's really necessary. Anyway, we're gonna have to move
on with our [unclear] here...
NA: Can I add one small thing?
TL: Yes, absolutely.
NA: I want to just mention to all the public members here in the commission —
a lot of the questions you asked are my own personal opinions.
TL: Um-hum.
NA: I do the best I can to speak of what I know of the divisions initiatives and
ideas and [unclear] but try not to quote me on a lot of that stuff because I
don't want to speak for Lisa or for Steve, but if you guys have further
questions, I'm always available, You guys can always call me. I'll do my
best to answer your questions.
Man: Thank you.
NEW BUSINESS:
TL: So does anybody have any new business that we want to entertain this
eveing?
MB: Hey, Tom, I just have one comment on the last, I mean, good for Nick for
tl
coming, but, you know, my two cents is this, right, if we could get DLNR or
the state to actually put together a plan, right, so I'm, I'm gonna say the
same thing I always say, right? I mean, Nick can sit here and quote acres
about we're fencing this, we're doing this, we're doing this, we did transits,
we did this, we did the research, we went to the public, blah, blah, blah,
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blah, blah. Right about Natural Area Reserves —you've got — you know,
the best marketing campaign the state's ever put out on the watershed
initiative, right, which is in essence fence and eradicate. And, you know, it
wouldn't be so contentious if we just knew what the state's plan was for
our game. If they dedicated 25% of what they dedicate to this other stuff—
to say, hey, look. Here's our plan for pigs, here's our plan for sheep,
here's our plan for goats, here's our plan for deer on Maui and Lanai, right,
we would not be sitting and acting like a fricking mushroom —where we
have no idea what their plan is —zero — cause they will not commit. You
know, I think it's just—a one more time as a commission — our goal is to
get these guys to step up and say, you know what—game is important—
here's the plan, man. And it fits in with preservation, and watershed, and
this is what we, this is what we're proposing for the next 20, to 30, to 40, to
50 years.
TL: Right.
MB: Right? It's just we don't know. No one knows. No one at DLNR knows. It's
like — it's swept under the rug and treated like kaka. And, you know, I feel
bad for Nick coming in here, you know, and saying all the [sounds like shit]
there's 37 plus 120 —well above 20% now! You know, if Nick could say,
hey, look, you know what—that's where it's gonna stop — but here's the
game plan, right, this is what Kalani gets in Kau for pigs, this is what we
get for sheep, right, it's just, you know, all we can do is watch it erode — it
evaporate. You know, someday we're gonna get out plan —we gotta. We'd
like the state to be accountable and responsible for the management of
game. And specify what that plan looks like so we can hold them
accountable to it. If they managed game like they manage NARS, we
wouldn't need this game commission.
TL: That's very true...
MB: OK. I've said my peace. Sorry.
TL: OK, no, I appreciate it, thank you. OK. New business? Yeah, nay? Oh,
there's new business.
Man: Yeah, it's right on top of what Mark was just saying. I would like to
announce for everybody that we did recently gain a new person in our
wildlife program — manager position in the admin office — his name is Jim
Cogswell, he's been a DOFAW employee on Oahu for quite a while, I
believe, so he's stepped up earlier this month and has been learning the
ropes of[unclear] the rest of our programs and I think is a great thing...
[tape gap]
TL: OK. We're going to take a recess for a minute.
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[tape gap]
D: Hey, we're here. Thanks Tom.
TL: Hey, David, that was — how did you spell that guy's last name?
D: C-O-G-S-W-E-L-L.
TL: OK. Got it. Thank you.
DY: One comment—this is Ike — David, thanks for the email inviting me to that
field trip but I can't make it. I have to...
D: OK.
DY: Yeah, so, thanks very much for the invitation but...
D: Yeah. Well maybe —there's another one maybe coming up. I'll get in touch
with you about that later...
DY: OK. Thank you.
D: And then I also have old business, Tom, when you get to it.
TL: OK. Hang on. I'm gonna turn this over to Craig for a second.
Man: Good morning, good morning — not morning yet— late but not morning yet
— Mr. Chairman and members of the board —you know, when you're
attending these kind of trainings or site visits or anything like that— please
remember that Sunshine Law still in effect— and should always be less
than a quorum — so only four. Also, remember that whatever you see,
whatever trainings you go to— you cannot commit amongst each other to
any kind of particular vote — oh, I like this —you guys gonna vote for this —
gonna vote for this, you know, that kind of thing, right? So everything has
to be voted on, on the record, while in session.
TL: OK. All right. Thank you. David — go ahead with the old business part and
then we're going to move on to committee reports.
D: Yeah, a bit of good news Tom — I don't know what you did but thank you
very much —just last week we wrapped up the memorandum of
agreement with Finance Factors to put the little footpath in across the top
of that koa timber parcel so I'm hoping to get that on the agenda for land
board at the upcoming May 8 meeting. I'll let you guys know as soon as
I'm sure that it's gonna be on the agenda and if you'd like to send in
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testimony or come to the board meeting to support that, that would be
great.
Man: You know, if you could let us know when that board meeting is...
D: May 8. Friday, May 8.
Man: Oh, yeah... OK.
Man: But it's not—we still have to go through a process to make sure that it's
gonna be on that agenda.
MB: And how do we submit testimony?
Man: You can come to the meeting — you can write...
MB: Oahu?
D: You can email...
Man: Yeah.
Man: It's Oahu so...
Man: It's always Oahu.
Man: Yeah, I'm not...
D: Yeah, but, but I can give you more details about how to submit your
testimony...
MB: That would be awesome, right. I mean, I've never submitted testimony to
the land board — but for that I will submit testimony. If you can forward that
to Tom and Tom can get it out to all of us —we would...
TL: Right.
MB: ....would definitely submit testimony on that. Awesome...
TL: All right, yeah, that is awesome. All right. Thanks, David. Anybody with
committee reports?
BC: Tom, this is Bobby. I have one bit of news, which I guess you all know,
Tony has resigned but the other part about that is Ryan Kohatsu's
application has been submitted to the Mayor. It's been tentatively
approved and we're gonna get it to council as soon as possible.
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TL: Oh, excellent, Appreciate that. Yeah, I saw that email this evening.
BC: Oh, and another, we have another we're plying him with cake and ice
cream right now and we're hoping that Jonathan decides that— Jonathan
Bertsch — decides that he will apply. I think he will but... He's still deciding
on the taste of the cake there. Well we have his application here right now
so we're getting closer to being back up.
TL: [Unclear] Yeah, yeah, I look forward to that.
Man: That's great.
BC: And I think we have one more open spot and that's downtown Kailua-
Kona and if [unclear].
TL: I'm waiting to hear back from Dru, actually, on that. And we have some
potentials it seems like.
BC: Great. Thank you.
Man: Hang on Bobby.
Man: Committee report.
Man: Ah, it's not a committee but I have a question...
BC: Yup.
Man: That I don't know— if this may be old business — I don't know— but what's
the status on our getting U.S. Fish & Wildlife over here?
BC: Yeah, I apologize. I did — I thought I had sent the letter out— I didn't— I
have it. What I'll do is send it out tomorrow electronically to Fish & Wildlife
— I'll cc everyone and then I'll follow that up with a call. I know the person
there — his name is Jame Quann and I will get an answer for you hopefully
by the end of the week.
Man: OK. Thank you.
BC: One way or the other. OK.
TL: All right, thanks Bobby. Any other committee business? Oh, by the way,
speaking of committees — Nani Quaglan has taken it upon herself to help
us with communications — in our communications committee that we
formed last month. Actually, I'd kinda like to just, for a second, and we
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Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting
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only have six minutes left— so commissioners' reports — are there any
commissioners' reports? None? If not, I'd like to give this to Nani for a
minute, so she can let people know just a little bit about herself.
N: Well I do want to say I was sworn in just two hours before the meeting.
And I'm really proud, and it's an honor for me to be on the commission.
really respect the hunters and fishermen cause they have a very big battle
and it's a — against a wind storm. I will give it my best shot to serve the
mayor, the county, the Sunshine Law. I just wanted to say my father was a
hunter and a fisherman and a lot of reason why I'm here is cause of my
memories of when I grew up and the wild game animals, the sheep, the
goats, the pigs, the deer, the fish. They were all something everyone
freely enjoyed, assume they would always have and those memories,
those personal memories, they're in your craw—that's why I'm here and
really believe there is way— if all sides were willing to cooperate and be
considerate to find a balance between the precious native species and the
wonderful great resources we have of the wild game and the hunters can
continue as they have for centuries to provide really great wild free,
healthy meat for their families, their friends. This is a way of life for way
back further than any of us sitting here today. And it's been really steam
rollered and so that's why I'm here. Right, I just wanted to say a little bit
about, you know, my background. Second generation, my children third
generation in Hawaii and my memories and my father—the greatest man I
ever knew—who was a hunter and fisherman — and what a wonderful life
that was growing up in the communities in Hawaii with that culture, with
that history and it's worth fighting for, yeah, and it's a real honor for me to
work with people that feel the same way. Thank you.
TL: Very good. Willie-Joe here reminded me of the fact that on this committee
— Nani has volunteered to be on the committee. Is there anybody else that
wants to be on the communications committee?
N: I just want to say in communications committee —the biggest priority I
would have is to win public support...
TL: Right.
N: In whatever way we can brain storm to do that. So if anyone has ideas —
that would be great. I want to do childrens' plays — drama club.
TL: Well, I might join you on that committee.
MB: Yeah, Tom, it's Mark in Kona. I seem to have a hard time operating my
Smart Phone. I vote for Ryan Kohatsu, right, who's adept in, you know,
obviously he gets to make that choice, but I think that's probably the
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Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting
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person on the — soon to be a person on the committee that, that is
probably the right choice for communications.
TL: Well, he's sitting in the audience here...
MB: OK, Ryan, it's you buddy.
Man: Yeah, but we can't go there yet, so, we gotta wait.
Man: Yeah.
TL: Right.
Man: We got to wait on that.
Man: So Craig do we need to like make a nomination for that committee and
vote on it? No need?
CM: [Not speaking in mic]
Man: OK. Right, yeah, I'm just trying to be official.
TL: I thought committees were voluntary. You volunteer to be on the
committee on or off— you don't have to be voted on them, right?
CM: [Not speaking in mic]
TL: OK. Are there any commission reports by any of the districts? If not, I
move that we...
Man: Next meeting... Next meeting May 8.
TL: Oh. Yes. Next meeting is May 18 and it's gonna be in Kona. And I move,
anybody second to adjourn?
DY: Second...
TL: OK. All in favor. [The ayes have it] We're done...
Respectfully submitted by,
Barbara Kossow
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