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HomeMy WebLinkAbout21-07-28 EMC minutesENVIRONMENTAL MANAGEMENT COMMISSION COUNTY OF HAWAUI MEETING MINUTES Wednesday, July 28, 2021 9:05 a.m. to 11:45 a.m. (Online meeting via Zoom videoconferencing) Commissioners present: Georjean Adams, Chair John Burns Rick Gaffney, Vice Chair Dee Fulton Lee McIntosh Jon Olson (Audio only) Elyse Robinson County staff present: Ramzi Mansour, Director Sanne Berrig, Recycling Specialist Peter Sur, Secretary J Yoshimoto, Deputy Corporation Counsel Wendy Baez, Legislative Assistant, Council District 8 Tim Richards, Council District 9 Others present: Sue Aronson, Audrey Cabrera, Cory Harden, Nancy Cook Lauer, Sandra Demoruelle, Kate Rao, Michelle Sorenson, Jerome Warren, others. 1. CALL TO ORDER' Chair Adams opened with a roll call and called the meeting to order at 9:05 a.m. 2. APPROVAL OF MINUTES FOR MEETING ON MAY 26, 2021 Motion and second: Commissioner Robinson moved to approve the minutes, and Vice Chair Gaffney seconded the motion. 1 To the extent possible, these minutes are presented in the order that they appear on the agenda, rather than the order in which they were taken up for discussion. 1 Discussion: No discussion. Vote: The minutes were approved as presented by voice vote. Ayes: 6 (Adams, Burns, Fulton, Gaffney, McIntosh, Robinson); Nays 0; Absent 3 (Cardwell, Hoopii, Olson). Motion carried. 3. STATEMENT FROM THE CHAIR Chair Adams hoped members are having a good summer. She appreciated the input she had received from the public and wanted to continue to encourage participation, but also to have the general practice of looking for solutions and being positive and constructive in the comments that are made. We are all struggling to get done what we need to get done with the resources available to us, and it helps if we can work together. 4. PUBLIC STATEMENTS ON ITEMS ON THE AGENDA Sandra Demoruelle: I'm addressing this time agenda item 7-2(c) regarding the Pahala large capacity cesspool project. According to Page 5 of the Director's Report, the County has made major changes to the project plans, going from a technology of open lagoons for disposal to mechanized treatment alternatives with subsurface drip irrigation. This major change of plans requires the mayor, who was the accepting authority, to consider whether a supplemental assessment is needed, and to publish notice of that decision in The Environmental Notice of the Office of Environmental Quality Control. Attached is a sample of the notice required by this major change, so you can see for yourself what I am talking about. On the Director's Report on Page 5 the County has said the EPA is making a decision. But EPA has its own set of rules. They are federal rules, and NEPA, the National Environmental Policy Act. And in my opinion and in the opinion of many legal scholars, NEPA is not as strong as the Hawai'i Environmental Policy Act. This presents a golden opportunity to us all to do a new environmental assessment to consider this drip alternative in the 25 acres of old growth macadamia orchard. Instead of pulling up the 20-foot trees, we can just do drip underneath the ground and not have to disturb the plants that are already there. So I see this as a golden opportunity to look at things again with new eyes. So thank you for considering my concerns about the need for a new environmental assessment or supplement of some sort, or at least notification of whether they are going to do one or not. Thank you. Jerome Warren: In regard to the N5'51ehu sewer update, this is agenda item 7-2(c), and this is on the Director's Report 4-1(B) on Page 6. The N5'51ehu sewer project deadline is 2023. Your informational report said 2027 and this happened last month too. To get the truth, you must look at the EPA website. There you will find the semi-annual update that the County submits to the EPA. This report is not on the County website. This item is not signed by the Director. Please take this item out of order. Let's hear it first. Don't let the clock run down and have this boondoggle cost over again. I am in contact with the EPA and will answer any questions. Thank you. 2 5. UNFINISHED BUSINESS a. Status report on 2021 EMC Priorities — Each lead commissioner to provide brief report on assigned priorities (priorities are listed in the May 2021 meeting minutes). Chair Adams asked if any commissioners had updates to share. • Vice Chair Gaffney said the projects that he had described before are ongoing. The process to sewer Honokohau Small Boat Harbor is moving forward into the planning stage. There is a lot to understand and a lot to learn in the process. One of the problems that we face is there is not currently a connection from Kealakehe Parkway at Honokohau Harbor to the Kealakehe Wastewater Treatment Plant. The Director has had several meetings with other developers besides the harbor, and including us in those discussions to try to see if that could be moved forward. Like everything else we do, it's extremely complicated. Timing is important. The developers need to be able to sell their land, but they cannot until they provide the sewage services required, so there are lots of pieces to the puzzle. But the good news is it's continuing to move forward, and the DLNR Division of Boating and Ocean Recreation continue to be focused on getting it done. There are two major fish processors on this island, he said. They have come together and have provided the opportunity to provide the equipment, even, to process their fish waste, and then working with the County or with one of the County's contractors toward turning our mulch into really high -nutrient compost. So those discussions have just started, but basically one of the larger fish processors is willing to provide the equipment, the screw press, the drying bins, and so forth, to move that process forward. There are discussions going on as to where that will take place, and there are permitting issues and other things that will slow it down. Unfortunately there's about 50,000 pounds per month of fish waste on this island, but until all the permits and agreements are set, that fish waste will continue to be wasted. Lastly, you have probably heard the states of Maine and Oregon have passed extended producer responsibility bills, which basically puts the price on plastic before it becomes a cost issue for the citizens of a community. And essentially it's similar to the fees put on tires and batteries and things like that. He reached out to the Council Member for District 8, Holeka Inaba, and asked if there was something that the Council could do to support that process in the State. He in turn reached out to Rep. Nicole Lowen, and she has been introducing bills of this nature in the Legislature for two years. They have not moved forward yet, but she is a member of the National Caucus of Environmental Legislators. So she is working with legislators from Maine, Oregon, Washington State, and California, toward this end. So the good news is there is some progress on this subject, and If you are interested in supporting that, he recommends reaching out to your legislators in the Hawai'i Island delegation. Chair Adams asked if this might be a good topic to place on the agenda for the next EMC meeting. Vice Chair Gaffney recommended reaching out to Rep. Lowen to do a 3 presentation. Because she is working with the national caucus, she might be able to answer questions. Chair Adams agreed to work with Vice Chair Gaffney to invite Rep. Lowen to the August meeting. Chair Adams also had a question about the fish processing. Is there any function or a role for the EMC relative to that? The Vice Chair said he brought it up for "general awareness." He said we need to watch the process, and it's not anything that the Commission needs to do at this time. One of the realities is that fish waste turning into compost does not smell particularly nice. If we are going to prevent that, the solution is to filter the air from an enclosed building, but that's a little ridiculous considering we have sun for free, and that is an important part of the process. So likely it should be done where smell is not going to be an issue. The door has been opened and we have a good citizen who is very, very interested in sustainable infrastructure and is willing to provide the equipment to process this fish waste, and to turn it into what we need. Chair Adams encouraged the Commission to continue to be vigilant for similar issues in which EMC can step in. • Commissioner Fulton, after first thanking the Vice Chair for his work on those three fronts, said that her District 7 had a couple of significant rain events, followed quickly by Brown water advisories from the Department of Health — on June 21 in Kailua Bay, and June 29 in Holualoa Bay. Of course Kailua Bay is a favorite for locals and Native Hawaiians. It's upsetting when she sees these things happening and she thinks about the impact to the coral. She started some investigations and reached out to the Three Mountain Alliance. They pointed her to Erica Perez, senior program manager with the Coral Reef Alliance, who does water quality testing. The bottom line is she would like to find out why we are having these brown water events. She suspects it's a combination of farming practices, residential development, pig and goat activity. Because we don't know what is generating the problem, we cannot begin to speculate about solutions. But it is something of interest to her because it looks like a preventable problem and she would like to continue working on that. Commissioner Fulton also mentioned she had a question about chloride levels, that's on her priority list, but will circle back to it for the Director's Report. Vice Chair Gaffney wanted to bring up one more issue to the Commission's attention. The restroom facility in Miloli'i is going to be replaced by the County, and unfortunately the wastewater system at that facility is very close to the ocean. And the proposal for the upgrade is to continue the use of a septic system. The apparent thinking of the planners is that there's a whole bunch of cesspools along the shoreline there anyway, so why can't we us the old technology at the restroom? That thinking has to stop. He wants commissioners to be aware there are still people in County government who think it's OK to do things like restroom upgrades and not do the right thing with the wastewater systems. There is a proposal that has been made to use the technology that has been 4 developed in Long Island, New York, and the Florida Keys, amongst other places, for a layered absorption system as part of the septic system. It is going to be more expensive to install that, but it is a way to make an attempt to minimize the amount of pollution caused by that restroom rebuild. Commissioner Adams asked about the jurisdiction that the Department of Health has over nonpoint discharges that result in brown water advisories, and whether it's something that the Commission and DEM are appropriately set to manage. Director Mansour said he had spoken with Sina Pruder, Wastewater Branch chief for the Department of Health, the previous day. And as a member of the Cesspool Conversion Working Group, we always try to find a way to get off cesspools, and eventually septic tanks. There's essentially no difference between a septic tank and a cesspool, because they are all leaching into the ground. The idea is there are a lot of challenges ahead of us especially with the decision in County of Maui v. Hawai'i Wildlife Fund. We need you as we work on the County Code. And part of it is, how do we control development as far as the wastewater is concerned. We need to start thinking about policies and requirements for subdivisions and other developments. You know we are negotiating an administrative order of consent for the pretreatment program. So most of the restaurants, the industrial users, they need to pretreat before they dispose to our sewer system or leach into the ground. So some of these issues are being talked about with DOH and EPA on the requirements. We were supposed to comply with pretreatment, the program was started in 1989. And we are in 2021. So we have had a few meetings with them, and we are in the process of negotiating that AOC. But your role as I see as the advisory committee is, to assist as we navigate through the code changes. In speaking with Ms. Pruder, every development within the service area needs to be tied in to the sewer system. We need to do whatever we can to allow for that tie-in. Otherwise we will just continue the cycle of leaching into the groundwater. Chair Adams asked with regard to the Miloli'i Beach Park restroom, whether sewering is even an option. Director Mansour said in his meeting with Dr. Rick Bennett and Dr. Greg Asner, and Parks and Recreation Director Maurice Messina, and with direction from the Mayor, they are doing a pilot project to set up a better sewer system. His understanding was that the Miloli'i comfort station was not budgeted for a septic system at this time, because it was not part of the improvement they are doing for the park. The discussion led to discussions about how it's so close to the shore, and that's what is causing the effluent. It's only 5.5 feet from the seawall. Obviously it's leaching into the water. The system is also under under -designed and also they have a bigger issue. All these new subdivisions coming in, you have the old homes on cesspools, you have the new homes on septic tanks, and each one is leaching into the ocean. So the idea is maybe we need to look at a more comprehensive waste treatment system. Because even at the park itself, because it's more than 1,000 gallons per day, we may need to start looking at aerobic treatment units rather than septic systems. Would that 5 address the concerns about the residences that surround the park? We need to look at a more comprehensive small treatment system for the whole village. That is likely what the Director would recommend for the park and the homes around that area. It's a flat area, so maybe we need to create some kind of facility district and convert everybody to sewer treatment. Under the Cesspool Conversion Working Group, anything under the shoreline is considered Priority No. 1 areas. You need to provide some kind of treatment, not septic or cesspool. And that discussion is continuing. That's why it is very important to think about these subdivisions coming in, and what we are permitting versus what we need to come in. That discussion has started with Director Mansour, Planning Director Zendo Kern, and Mayor Roth, so that's going to continue. Anything that comes from the Commission as a policy recommendation is appreciated, he said. Director Mansour added the Department of Parks and Recreation has a project at Kolekole Beach Park where they are proposing to replace the septic system, so we are planning to intercept that design and maybe introduce a different filtration material. To be sustainable, we need to be able to reuse some of our resources that we have. We have great blue sand at the landfill, we have great woodchips and mulch that could introduce carbon into the system that could extract some of the nitrogen out of the effluent. We need to intercept that design and create a pilot program based on the filtering material that he described or the caked layering type of material that Dr. Bennett also had described. So at least we are going to have that opportunity to tap into an upcoming construction project, and build a pilot program that we are going to monitor, and Dr. Bennett and Dr. Asner will collect the data and analyze it, and assist us through the process. b. Status report on action items from previous meeting i. Further discussion relating to EMC support for the PaintCare program. Sanne Berrig, Recycling Specialist, said she had just spoken with Heidi McAuliffe of PaintCare regarding next steps, in that it's a statewide project, we are working with counterparts in the other counties. So we are moving along on it, she said, to see if it is something that will work for us. Any potential effects on DEM related to Res. No. 143-21. Chair Adams asked whether there were any comments now that the resolution, which was to make sure that the recyclable materials that are being shipped out to other countries is going to be managed well, in an environmentally sound manner, a la the Basel Convention, and whether the Department has had the need or opportunity to look at what the ramifications are. Ms. Berrig said we have reached out to our contractor. We just started with a new vendor. One question the contractor had was, not only what other countries have signed on, but also, it's weird, the United States has never ratified it. So it's a great idea. We have not heard back, she said. 0 Chair Adams said DOH is supposed to be putting together the procedures and requirements. This item is just to know where things stand, so that we know we are sending our recyclables to people who can manage them properly. 6. NEW BUSINESS a. Discussion on solid waste division funding needs and options. Chair Adams opened by saying the Commission has given its advice on the challenge of how we fund wastewater management, and now we will go to solid waste management. To start the conversation off she began with her version of what she did with the Solid Waste Advisory Commission, and thinking about funding. We didn't know the answer, but we did come up with various ideas to kick off the discussion. We are looking at a solid waste fund that has $38 million in it with landfill operation costing $27 million. Where do revenues come from? The General Fund provides about 65 percent of that solid waste revenue. There is no financial incentive to reduce waste generation. It has no relation to how much waste residents generate. There is nothing dedicated to solid waste management. We get about 33 percent of the funding from tipping fees and permits. Doesn't cover the costs. It's free to residents. They don't see or feel a cost to waste management. And we go to the Council to schedule any increases.' The recycled program operates off grants, it covers about 2 percent of the budget. HI-5 is self- sufficient. Non-HI-5 glass is covered by an advance deposit by the manufacturers, but it only covers 50 percent of the cost of having to recycle the glass. Electronics is pitiful, she said. We really need at least $250,000, and are now getting $85,000. One of the recommendations we made in the solid waste plan is we need more electronics waste collection events around but, it shrunk to one-third to stay within the budgets that are given. The money is controlled by the State Department of Health and the Governor, so again, things get pulled out to cover issues like COVID-19. Our need from a revenue standpoint is we need to cost-effectively reduce and divert waste from landfill. Otherwise, we are paying for it. We need to reduce what goes into the landfill. As a result, education gets shorted. Education is our primary recommendation from the Solid Waste Advisory Committee. We need to tell people how to reduce the generation of waste. Other underfunded items include staffing, maintenance and ease of use improvements, studies of financial and life cycle impacts, planning and auditing, and piloting and evaluating alternatives. CIP projects are paid with bonding, but that is still a loan. Even if budgets are approved, they are subject to change based on need. And something that is not always recognized up front is you also need staff to oversee project design and implementation, and a lot of things are not z Amended by Ordinance No. 2020-86; increases are determined by the Department's administrative rules. 7 being done because we do not have people within DEM who can oversee the work that a contractor would do. Ideas included setting up an enterprise fund, the same concept we had for wastewater management, focusing on user fees, dedicated taxes that are going to solid waste. We could institute more fair charges by volume of waste generated rather than a fixed fee for everybody. Running it like a business becomes more customer -focused, it's more transparent, there's more accountability, and more flexibility with the operations of the solid waste management. The downsides are that it may be politically unpopular and can be regressive. And the money maybe should go to the items that are more pressing rather than nailed down to a particular operation like solid waste management. We have already started to look at extended producer responsibility. We could increase the fees on the products that we already have, for example glass and electronics, and can come up with new categories of products. There are a lot of logistical and administrative hurdles. We are a single island in a state, and it takes people to set up systems to be able to manage it. And it's hard when it's a state program to ensure that each county gets a fair share. One item which is not going to generate revenue, but it begins the education process, is to make the fees that we do have in the property tax as a line item, and start educating people that waste management is not free. Another whole program out there that has all sorts of pros and cons about it is called "Pay as you throw." It's where you charge a fee for the waste you throw away. Waste costs a lot more than recyclables. Right now we make recycling free for residential users. Unless you put a cost on things, people don't care. They aren't going to differentiate. So it makes things cheaper to recycle something, then you have the issue of, eh, they're just going to throw it in a ditch, or a lava tube, and you need to be able to manage the littering. And we just don't have a lot of curbside pickup on this island, and it's going to be tough to institute it. And then we can always look at grant opportunities. The other end of it is to reduce costs. If we had the money to do education we could reduce the amount of waste generated. We could enhance our reuse capabilities and recycle, especially where we can generate revenue with the recycled materials. One of the top priorities is to renegotiate the Waste Management Hawai'i contract for the West Hawai'i Sanitary Landfill. Basically, that had been set up to guarantee a certain amount of waste to go in, and pay by the ton to Waste Management. It is totally the opposite of what we want to do, which is to reduce the amount of waste going in to our landfills, and to look at ways to reward Waste Management for helping us to keep stuff out of the landfill. Other ideas include a financial analysis, looking to improve our operations, and looking at life cycle analyses. With that, Chair Adams concluded the slide show and opened the floor for discussion. Commissioner Olson proposed collecting the disposal fee at the point of purchase. As a starting point, one cent on the dollar gets you funding for making the analysis of what it costs to dispose of the things that are brought in. And it grows as that cost rises. This puts the consumer in the driver's seat. He knows what it takes to get rid of what he just bought, and it takes away from simply being a function of the property tax. He knows it is going to be a substantial challenge, 0 but if we are going to continue to do it the way we are doing it, we are going to go broke, because we do not have the consumer in the driver's seat. He has no idea. You walk into the store, you see something, you grab it. You pay the money and walk out the door, and it may cost 1 cent to get rid of it, or it may cost $100. They have no idea, he has no idea. So, that's the best he can do for the moment, he said. Director Mansour said he had a meeting with our Finance Department a month ago with the idea of entertaining the legality of setting a user fee. Our Finance Director is working with our County attorney to figure out what are the legal obligations if we set a user fee. So we need to figure out, is it legally doable or not? He hopes it's doable because municipalities across the country have this type of system. It could be hybrid program — it could be a user fee to cover some of the costs, and it could be a fee that is collected at the time of purchase to allow people to understand the cost of disposal. Unfortunately, it comes down to human behavior. People will pay the extra percent at the point of purchase because at that point they want the product and we see it when it comes to tires and batteries, for example. The idea is we may be able to set that fee, and we are going to have more revenue to get rid of that stuff, but he doesn't know if it's going to deter people from purchasing it. People who want to buy it are going to buy it. But human behavior seeks entitlement to buy the biggest and the best. We need to educate the public to allow them to understand what happens when you flush a toilet or buy something from Costco with boxes and plastic packaging. We need to invest more money into the public education. As the new generation comes along, there will be better educated and more environmentally conscious about what to do with things. Commissioner Robinson asked the Director to speak about education strategies that can or should be done. Director Mansour said it goes back to funding. His understanding is they used to have some kind of public education component but it was cut from the budget. When you start with public education, you solve half of your problem, because people are cognizant of the cost, and they get on the program. But if nobody is telling them the ramifications, they are going to continue the same behavior. Commissioner Burns said this was good to connect to the discussions that he was having on the priority areas. There are programs that are moving in this direction that we can support as well, for example the PaintCare program. We don't have to do too much work in a vacuum coming up with ideas for these. It's impressive how many ideas the County is already pushing forward in the Recycling Program. He's still talking with them and trying to figure out where is the best area that we can provide letters in support to move forward, but there are good rationales that they have to promote this idea which is paying up front that items that create waste. So there are a lot of positives we can achieve there, he said. Commissioner McIntosh suggested that rather than trying to institute preventing people from generating waste, because it's a fact that people are going to generate waste. If he buys a computer, he wants it to be protected and arrive in one piece. That requires packaging, which 0 will be waste that needs to be disposed. You want to look at more about how you are creating fees to fund the disposal, and we should be looking at how you can divert waste from the landfill. And if that is the purpose, your recycling, your diversion that is to cost money as well, so you are going to run into the hole again, because you are trying to prevent all this stuff from going into the dump. You are trying to send it off -island because we just don't have the space or the required volume to handle it here on the island. So those are expensive options for shipping, and we need to modify our thinking and policy of how we are are addressing the issues, and move forward. Commissioner Robinson asked if there was a way we can partner with the Department of Education and the University of Hawai'i System colleges to include them on the problem solving and education pieces. We involve students to start thinking about what they are doing, but also what's the best way to educate others about the issues that we face with waste? In the process we would be educating them but also tasking them to come up with creative solutions as part of the next generation, thinking about what they are doing and what people should be thinking about to take care of their island. And she doesn't know about how the County feels about having a Facebook page, or Instagram, or TikTok, but there can be many avenues where we can advocate other than through expensive advertising. If that's what it takes, it's what it takes, but maybe there could be other creative solutions that the next generation has. Director Mansour said that's good, and social media is the way to get the word out. Our goal is not to do expensive advertisements, but to capture social media. But we need somebody to learn it. Unfortunately we don't have the staffing. Everything comes down to funding and staffing. As a County, we should have a section of two or three staff concentrating on tapping into social media, the high schools, the universities, and partnering with private and public entities. It's nt just a matter of spending money on advertisements for outreach. Director Mansour clarified that it's possible for a department to have its own social media representative, and it's a matter of finding the funds to allow staff to do it. Chair Adams said that Ms. Berrig has been trying hard to connect with multiple groups, and has worked with the college(s) in Hilo to get the word out and leveraging opportunities to communicate. Director Mansour said he has been using Ms. Berrig for outreach, but she's only one person. It is more of the outreach and education because to him that is half of the problem. Chair Adams said the SWAC would agree. It's education, education, education. It's understanding what the impacts are of what you do, the decision you make or don't make, as well as having alternatives. We have reuse centers where you can take things, and we're trying to communicate that they exist, and what you can take there, some different recycling opportunities. It's infrastructure that we are poorly lacking. We don't have processing capabilities to turn things back into usable materials. And we're on an island, so there may be other jurisdictions with which to work. It's a life cycle management challenge, and there are a 10 lot of moving parts. And one of the things we recognize is somebody's got to do that base work and keep all the pieces together, and juggling all the pieces, and that's when we overload the few people that we have. Once you establish outreach and education, Director Mansour said, then the next step when we go out and ask for fees or funding, it becomes easier politically, and it will be accepted easier because everybody will understand. But to go out and say we are setting fees without educating the public, it's going to be outrageous. Chair Adams said the model we have on this island is Hi-5. We pay a nickel for every can of soda and drinks. And some of us take the time to get our money back. And a lot of us do not, and it hardly stops anybody from buying cans and bottled drinks. It's like a gasoline tax, if you want to reduce consumption, you have to put a pretty high price on things to affect people's behavior. Commissioner Olson commented that the kickoff funding, as with the bottle bill, always comes back to the money, and we start with a guaranteed source. If we start with any sum of money, we can use it to build the infrastructure that it's going to take to make the solid waste stream self -funding. It should not be on the property tax. There's no longer a correlation, particularly with the fact that we are dependent at this point on the visitor industry. We've all traveled. We buy an immense amount of stuff that never makes it home. It's the only thing as a starting point that makes sense. Chair Adams asked whether we should look at the transient accommodations tax as a revenue source and how far to push it and how much we could use some money. How much money does the Department even need? How many pennies would we have to charge on the goods that get purchased here? We could only, as she understands it, get a maximum of $19 million from the TAT 3. The volume of need has got to be a whole package of ideas. We are not going to find a single solution. Director Mansour said the cost is driven by the cost of services we provide. We have transfer stations that are operated seven days a week. The reason is because of convenience to the users. But if you look at it from a collection point of view, your waste only gets collected once a week. If we could get a human to rethink that, on this day we will use transfer station, rather than just whenever the person feels like going to a transfer station, that could save a lot of money. But we need to start setting a fee for that convenience, for the beneficial use of the landfill, because everybody uses the landfill. Waste comes from every house and ends up at the landfill. We could manage with what we got, but the level of service is going to drop, and people need to have to acclimate to the change if they don't want to see extra fees. So it depends. Things come at a cost. s The amount of revenue that a County transient accommodations tax would raise is unknown and depends on several factors. Act 1, Special Session 2021, repealed the $19,158,000 allocation to the County of Hawai'i from the State TAT beginning in FY 21-22, and authorized the counties to enact legislation establishing a County TAT of up to 3 percent, in addition to the State TAT. The County of Hawai'i has not yet enacted such legislation. 11 Commissioner Olson recalls when the transfer stations were a hole in the ground and no gate. The fact that we have a gate and hours, and that we got that far is surprising. It initially got a lot of blowback. And there's the complexity of the waste stream. It used to be that what you throw in there would quietly decompose and it had relatively little impact, and that is not the world we live in today. Reducing the hours is going to be problematic at best. Director Mansour said if you go to collections anywhere in the country, even on Oahu, they pick it up every Thursday. Commissioner Olson said if we could get a collection going, that would be a great start. If, Director Mansour said, we can accept collection once a week, why can we not just adjust behavior to take our garbage to the transfer station once a week? It's a built-in mindset, Commissioner Olson said. The reality of where we are is that it is ingrained in people that the transfer station is available 24/7. Curbside pickup might work in the small -lot subdivisions. Where we are going to have a problem is in the large acreage subdivisions. Director Mansour agreed that is going to be the challenge. That's the mindset. Nobody's paying for it, so it becomes an entitlement. When you go to a convenience store, it's also open 24/7, but anything you purchase, you expect to pay for it. The idea here is need to do the public education and the outreach, and start changing the mindset, because it's going to come at a cost. It's the idea of the minimal disposal fee, Commissioner Olson said. You get it settled with people who are paying for it, and it is not arbitrary. The fact is that you can go to the transfer station and you can dump a truckload, or one bag. And on their side of the fence it doesn't' seem to have a consequence. We both know there's a huge consequence, he said. They don't see the cost. Although Director Mansour needed to leave the meeting, Chair Adams said we are not done with this conversation. This is a kickoff to think about the different ways and means, and also to recognize we are not the only place on the planet that is looking at how to manage solid waste. There are a lot of models out there. Maine is going to try something to get the manufacturers to pay. She just thinks about all those times that she tries to buy something online and finds there's no delivery to Alaska or Hawai'i. Well, how long is that list going to get to figure out how we are going to charge them to pay for waste disposal off this island? The logistic challenges are quite numerous, and there's no magic solution. It's a whole pile of things that the SWAC tried to collate that were useful. We made some progress, and we have to figure out how we can fund more staff to do some of the community education programs, and also to analyze what would work on this island. How much would we need to charge for each kind of good? Throwing away a computer versus throwing away a paper cup is not the same 1 cent cost. So 12 do we differentiate by the type of product, and how do we set up an administration for it when it's a County fee or tax? It boggles the brain. How much is it really costing us, and how is the best way to do it? In his closing remarks, Director Mansour said Chair Adams delivered a great presentation on a very complex topic, and we are going to continue talking about it. He gave a shout -out to Ms. Pruder for being great to us. We are going to continue working with her and navigating through wastewater issues, he said. Chair Adams asked the Commission whether they wanted to go back, think about it, and bring it back for the next meeting as well, maybe focus in on a couple areas to explore. Maine is trying to set it up. How it would work or not work may not be a model for this. The concept is basically that manufacturers fund our solid waste management program. She wasn't so sure about that. But it's worth looking at. And the idea of, do we do something with the transfer stations? Commissioner Burns was interested in looking at how do we make it a more efficient operation, and whether or not it's going to these single days. Don't all go on the same day, divide it up and if your house number is odd or whatever, you go on a certain day. So there are different kinds of programs to deal with the different issues that we have. She's looking forward to see what comes back from the life cycle analysis, and how we handle our recyclables. Can we do more of it? Is there stuff we should stop doing? There are a multitude of opportunities to look at how do we divert waste, how do we fund what we got to do, because we will always have waste. So how are we going to manage it in the most cost effective way possible? b. Presentation from the Office of the Corporation Counsel regarding the Commission's authority to hear and determine appeals from decisions of the director, including orders and denials of variances, pursuant to Hawaii County Code Section 2-207(b), and matters relating to the Commission's process of handling appeals. (Deferred to the EMC meeting on August 25, 2021) 7. REPORTS/CORRESPONDENCE Director's Informational Report. (Note: the report is posted online with the agenda under www.hawaiicounty.gov>Our County> County Calendar> (Meeting date). Director Mansour thanked commissioners for getting involved, and sharing our county and the island. From an advisory point of view it's right on track with the latest environmental protection that we can provide, and it is much appreciate it, he said. 1. Legislative update Director Mansour addressed the challenges with Resolution No. 167-21, authorizing the Office of the Mayor to enter into an agreement with the Department of Hawaiian Home Lands to remove abandoned vehicles from the Kings Landing area. The weekend before, our department 13 did a cleanup of the Ocean View area. We partnered with the community and we were able to get 57 vehicles. Our goal is to continue doing these programs countywide, he said. Regarding Resolution No. 167-21, it was postponed because DHHL wanted to pay for the towing of vehicles and we would pay for the disposal on DHHL property. That was deferred because DHHL properties are public properties, and under the current code, the County would pay for it. So even though DHHL offered to pay for it, there was that discussion with Council members. And he was going to take that back to Council Members. Hopefully we'll invite a representative from DHHL because they were the ones who wrote that memorandum of agreement. The whole idea is we need to partner with them and get into the beautification, and try to clean up as much of the abandoned vehicles as we can. So that resolution is probably going to go back at the end of this month or early September, we are working on that. 2. Requests for updates: The commissioners have requested informational updates on the following: a. An overview of the $1 billion wastewater project list that DEM is pursuing via federal infrastructure funds. List the projects, cost per project, alternatives considered for each project, and timelines for completion proposed in the federal request or projected timelines for each proj ect's completion. Is the proposed $1 billion sought in the form of grants or loans? If both, please specify. (Gaffney) Vice Chair Gaffney said the charts provided in the Director's Report were helpful, but he had some follow-up questions: Has a source of funding been identified, and is it going to be grants or loans or a combination thereof? If it's a combination, what are the relative percentages between the two? Director Mansour said funding is always going to be a challenge. He has been told many times that funding falls under the Finance Department, even though we try to chase it and find ways. But he and his staff were told to leave the funding to the Finance Department. With that being said, as the department being responsible for these projects we are going to keep pushing these projects, and he gave a shout to the Mayor for putting wastewater as priority No. 1. He has been pushing it as one of his top priorities, and we have been trying to push our projects, and we were able to work with the Finance Department. Funding for Pahala and N5'51ehu comes from the state revolving fund and we are going to have the commitment for. For the Hilo Wastewater Treatment Plant, we were committed to $50 million for construction funding through floating a bond for that project. And we have submitted an application for federal funding under the Water Infrastructure Finance and Innovation Act for $50 million to address some of our force mains and pumping stations. So we are seeking approximately $200 million in funding. The idea now is to proceed forward and get these projects out on the street. Vice Chair Gaffney asked the Director to reconcile his $200 million with the projected $1 billion need. He asked whether the funding sources that he just described are essentially loans that have to be paid back. What is the effort that is going forward with regard to pursuing the federal funds that Congress in the process of finalizing right now, and other grant opportunities 14 that are out there for community development, like the U.S. Economic Development Administration and so forth? Director Mansour said we are chasing grants as well. For the North Kona Sewage Pumping Station request, we hope to get that $19.5 million grant funding. We have been talking with our elected officials. Mayor Roth has been reaching out to our Hawai'i delegation in Congress, trying to make sure we can tap into federal funding for wastewater treatment. That has been our daily discussion. The idea is it's trying to balance, even if you get a billion dollars, you are going to tip scale on debt ratio because most of it is going to be loans. Our Finance Department is going to look at it and say, you are not going to get $1 billion all at once, but at least we got $200 million, which is a good start. We never had that much to start with. Things are changing, we are pushing for projects, we are pushing for change, and we hope to start seeing the fruits of it. Vice Chair Gaffney commented that his concern as a taxpayer on the island is that the debt level gets pretty onerous. b. DEM's short-term and long-term plans for recycled water management and cost recovery. Does DEM intend to push DWS to handle the sale and distribution of R-1 water (as other counties do) or does DEM intend to manage those specifics of recycling from within DEM? (Gaffney) Vice Chair Gaffney said the question has been asked and answered, and he's not sure that is the best approach. It has been pointed out in the past that the Department of Water Supply already has a system for managing water billing, and so it would make sense for DWS to manage all kinds of water, as opposed to creating a new system of billing where one doesn't exist in DEM. He asked the question because he wanted to know what direction DEM is going in, and though the Director has answered it, and that's fine but the Vice Chair is still going to continue to ask because there might be a better way. He was frustrated at the time when DWS said they were not interested, because practically it works well on Oahu and Maui, where DWS manages both drinking water and reclaimed water. So he will continue to pursue the question even though the question was answered. Chair Adams said there is a difference between sending bills for sewering, which is the current practice, versus managing and looking for opportunities, and working with users, and managing the recycled water, in addition to doing the billing. She thinks that is what the Vice Chair is talking about, which is who is managing where that water is going to go. Vice Chair Gaffney says DWS gets involved when someone proposes to build a subdivision. They need to see what the plumbing for that looks like, where the pipes are coming in to the properties, and so on and so forth. Metering is also something they have a hand in. It seems like a natural extension, and it has been proven in other counties that it makes more sense for it to done for a single agency rather than two agencies overseeing effectively the same thing. We can continue to discuss this over time but at some point this probably goes to the Council and to the Mayor's office as well. DWS is an interesting institution because it's quasi -governmental. 15 We the citizens are effectively their boss. There are questions about how they are managed by the Council or the Mayor both'. He appreciates the answer to the question but will continue to provide oversight. Commissioner Robinson asked whether DWS gave any reason why they were not interested. Vice Chair Gaffney recollected that "they just said no, we are not interested." This morning's newspaper had an article about DWS' continued problems managing their pumping and water distribution in West Hawai'i, so it may be based on they don't want any more work, but it's an ongoing question. At some point we might want to reach out to the Council and say, please consider having hearings on this subject so that the public can be informed on what DWS' reason is. They may have a very good reason. Our island is very different from O'ahu and Maui in terms of size and population density. They may be looking at that factor. From a citizen's point of view, it just seems to him to make sense that if someone is managing water to individual subdivisions and homeowners, it would make sense managing all forms of water to those individuals. Director Mansour said the sewer and environmental assessment fees still looming over his head could be a possibility because everybody that uses water ends up disposing of that water. What comes in through the faucet has got to go out somewhere, either through the cesspool, septic tank, or sewer system. The idea is to set up an environmental assessment for a sewer system that could allow us to provide better funding for protecting our shorelines and the groundwater. Then what we need to do is tap into the billing system, and that would be countywide. And we could charge the fees to be able to protect the same water they are using. c. Nd'dlehu/Pahala LCCs status of negotiations Director Mansour thanked Ms. Demoruelle and Mr. Warren for their testimonies. We found out from the geotechnical study in April that we have lava tubes and that potentially changed the situation. The liability of excavating it was risky and it could have potentially halted the whole project because of the potential of finding burial sites as we start excavating. So the excavation was not feasible. We have to re -coordinate and sit down with staff, and were able to look at the prelim engineering report that was done and the environmental assessment that was done. We have currently Wilson Okamoto, who is our EA consultant, trying to finalize letter to the EPA to address the concerns. We need to get the EPA on board with what we have submitted. If we are going to meet the AOC deadline, the only way is through the design -build based on performance -driven criteria. The AOC is only about secondary treatment, so we can achieve that, utilize it in different processes based on preliminary engineering report that was part of the environmental assessment that was submitted initially. So we are not going to exit out of what was discussed in the EA or the preliminary engineering report, but we are going to do it based on a design -build performance -driven criteria, that is going to be bid out and designed in 4 County Charter Section 8-5: "The department of water supply shall come under the general supervision and control of the mayor, through the managing director." The Council's role is limited to confirming the Mayor's nominees to the Water Board. The Water Board sets the rules, rates, and budget for DWS. 16 order to meet that deadline. As far as the macadamia nut orchard is concerned, the reason why we went to the drip system is to avoid hauling in and tearing down the ground and demolishing these macadamia trees. These macadamia trees with their roots are going to be our disposal field. As we dispose of the effluent, the effluent will be absorbed by the roots of these trees. It's very beneficial to keep the trees for purposes of disposal so it doesn't percolate into the ground. It will be taken up through the roots, and become a win -win situation for the whole operation. And that's going to minimize the area of excavation and disturbance. We are looking at an area of less than 2 acres for the mechanized system versus disturbing 14 acres and excavating lava tubes, and chasing it who knows how deep. The idea is from an environmental point of view we feel strongly that we are doing less impact and we are minimizing the environmental impact from the proposed approach that we are going to take. The director said the testifiers brought up good points, and these points are already being looked at and considered from an operational and design point of view, and he is much appreciative of that. Commenting on previous discussions, Director Mansour said that as Vice Chair Gaffney had mentioned we are working on some challenges. The Director thanked Commissioner Fulton for bringing up Kailua Bay groundwater issues. Keep us posted what you find out and hopefully with the pretreatment programs that can restrict any industrial dischargers, it's going to put more screws on how they can pretreat before they discharge. So that is going to help as we move forward. As far as the chloride counts in our influent and effluent are concerned, they are coming in at 500 mg/liter and leaving at 500 mg/liter, so no increase. Our sewer crew continues to do the sliplining in the sewer pipes. He reorganized the Department to have a person specially assigned for the dedication of the sewer collection for the whole island. That way they pay more attention on the scheduling, cleaning, and televising of the entire system. Director Mansour looked forward to answering questions from the Commission. The County of Maui versus Hawai'i Wildlife Fund decision may also have an impact on our wastewater treatment plants. Currently we have two injection wells, Honoka'a and Kaloko, and Kealakehe is a sump discharge. But because it is reaching the ocean of the bay, that could be considered discharge. All that could be a matter that we are waiting on with the Department of Health and the EPA as we move forward to be able to navigate through these challenges. Vice Chair Gaffney had a followup question about the drip disposal system that has been proposed for Pahala. Would that have to be an underground drip disposal system or could it be surface drip? Director Mansour said it's going to be underground because of the type of effluent that we are going to have. Subsurface drip systems allow for R-3 or R-2 water to be utilized for agricultural use. The County acquired the 14.9 acres so it is going to be entirely fenced, and it is going to be 8 inches below ground, he said. Commissioner McIntosh asked about the potential dates for the N5'51ehu sewer project, which were projected out to 2027. Where are those dates coming from? The EPA is still requiring a 2023 deadline but the report says we have longer. 17 Director Mansour said that Mr. Warren brought up a good point. When the Department was working on the deadline, the EPA agreed to give them the same deadline for Pahala, with the idea is this is just the overall deadline, but they were willing to negotiate and extend the time. They gave an umbrella type of date of 2023, and he had put a note to himself to follow up and look at the records. He needs to find out where the 2027 came in by talking to the consultant and staff. His understanding was it was never negotiated, they gave us one drop -dead date. We are cognizant of the deadline of N5'51ehu of 2023, he said. Director Mansour said he would address it in the next Director's report. d. Residential hauler fee credit issue discussed at RAWEEMC 6/15/21 Director Mansour said he had resolved that issue. We had a meeting with the haulers about a month and a half ago when the letter went out. There was some confusion about the difference between tipping fees and residential credits. The credit was part of our existing code but during the last revision it was omitted. And now we need to — the reason it was omitted, he still didn't understand. We cannot charge commercial tipping fees for residential waste. If we are going to start penalizing the people that decide to hire a hauler to take their waste to a landfill, then we need to have a fee that goes across the board for all residential waste. So we had continued giving the credit, and we are going to set up meetings with the haulers on a quarterly basis, to figure out and at least offset our administrative costs. Because it does cost us to administer these private hauler businesses, and the County cannot take on that cost because we have to recoup that cost somehow. We are going to be talking to garbage haulers about moving forward, streamlining the process, and figuring out how we can potentially expand the collection. If everybody is getting the residential credit, you can just pay for the garbage to be hauled from your house. That will create better economic growth for the island because it will create more jobs and more incentives, and allow us to look at the transfer stations. The director had staff run the numbers. We didn't have any idea how much the transfer stations were costing per ton. Some of the stations cost us almost $500 per ton to operate, which is totally insane, when our actual tipping fee is $116 per ton. So for a business model, it doesn't add up. So we definitely have to look at different operational and business models moving forward. He looks forward to filling the planner position, so they can assist us with sitting down and improving the business model. Currently we have and how we can improve, and making sure we are staying within industrial practices. The cost per ton at our landfill is about $244, which is almost twice the amount that we charge. So we are definitely in the negative and have to look at it from a landfill transfer station point of view of cost versus the services we provide. e. Impacts of Council -approved budget in FY 2021-22 for DEM, including life cycle assessment contract and funding a contractor to look into wastewater funding alternatives. Chair Adams asked whether Director Mansour got the money from the Council budget to hire someone to look at wastewater funding. Director Mansour said we did not. IV Chair Adams said the other idea was establishing an enterprise fund, and looking at it as a business model. What he was talking about (in 7-2(b)) is, what are the services that the County provides, and how do we pay for those services, and what makes logical sense? She would agree with the director that if you use the water, you are going to dispose of the water, and who is going to be taking care of that disposal? There is a nexus to look at a total cost accounting approach to it, and making sure that people are paying proper fees. It's disappointing that we didn't get anybody to look at that, but keep pushing at it, she said. Chair Adams understands that DEM has funding to go forward with a life cycle assessment of our recycling operations, and that's coming. We will wait for the findings to be presented to the Commission. f. Ideas for using the newly authorized County transient accommodations tax (Part III, Act 1, Special Session 2021), if enacted by County ordinance, to support sustainability or other program needs. (Adams) Chair Adams asked whether there has been any conversations about what to do with the County transient accommodations tax (if the Council were to authorize it), and whether we should go for it. Any effort is appreciated, Director Mansour said, and we should not give up, and we should continue trying every possible option. Commissioners have seen the capital project list, and that's just for wastewater. It doesn't include solid waste. From the solid waste aspect of things we are looking at resource recovery, extracting the gas from within our landfill to be able to provide for hydrogen vehicles and hydrogen stations. We are going to tap into the state consultant because we don't have to go through the RFP process. The State already had designated a consultant that counties can utilize for green energy performance contracts. We are looking into that or anything we can tap into and possibly funding new technology that can make us sustainable. This is the intent. This is the Mayor's top priority with the Sustainability Summit in March. He put out to the whole state that we need to be sustainable, so we are looking at every option possible. g. Request for discussion regarding greenwaste diversion program policies and practices at the Wai`ohinu transfer station. (McIntosh) Commissioner McIntosh asked about the County's new requirement that customers could only throw brush in the dumpster from 8 a.m. to 4 p.m. Before, it didn't matter, so he was trying to figure out whether this was a new policy or rule, and if so, would signage be posted? We don't like going to the dump and having to bring back what we take. Director Mansour said that in his understanding this is only a temporary situation. The security services provider is having a hard time hiring people. These are the personnel that opens from 6 a.m. to 8 a.m., and from 4 p.m. to 6 p.m. Not having the staffing, we adjusted hours to between 19 8 a.m. and 4 p.m. until the security consultant is able to hire the staff. But the Solid Waste Division Chief had put out signs and notified everybody, and the Director would check with him. Commissioner McIntosh's other question was that he had noticed some bulldozing at clearing at the Wai'ohinu Transfer Station. Have they started construction? Director Mansour said construction has started, and so the public will need to be patient as traffic is rerouted. 3. Solid Waste Division Projects and Updates (No discussion) 4. Wastewater Division Projects and Updates a. Discussion regarding requirement to install Septic or Dry Sewer Line in new developments that are not accessible to a sewer but may be accessible in the future.' Director Mansour said he had an upcoming meeting with the Mayor to talk about the strategy of how we are going to move forward with these challenges from the County of Maui versus Hawai'i Wildlife Fund decision to create affordable housing, and to be able to get the economic growth that we need. All these factors play a big part. He had his staff working on laying out all the collection system for the west side and the east side, wherever we have treatment plants, to understand the extent of that spider web, and how we are going to connect the dots. We have with the cesspool conversion mandate another challenge. We have the 2040 General Plan. We have the 2050 cesspool conversion mandate. We have some time, but if we don't plan it right now, we are going to find ourselves back in the same sand hole that we have been in for years. So the idea is we had better start getting smart and planning smart. There is a reason we call it a service area, because eventually the whole area is going to be serviced with sewer. If sewer is far away from it, you would put in a dry sewer line and a septic tank. There's some argument that this will not make it affordable. The answer to that is affordable housing could be done. But no matter how affordable you do it, it's going to be based on the market, and someone is going to outbid that affordable house, and make it less affordable. There are so many factors and the idea is, in talking to Ms. Pruder, the Department of Health allows for dry sewer lines. We had it in our code, and somehow it got dropped. It only was limited for 10 years, from 1989.E So he would imagine that when the wastewater treatment plants were built, people were told that anybody in the service area would have to do dry sewer. Somehow it was 5 See also Director's comments on page 5 e Hawai'i County Code Section 21-6. Subdivisions: Where public sewer service is accessible to any subdivision, the subdivider shall install all necessary sewage works to serve all lots. All new sewers and connections shall be properly designed and connected. For areas planned for sewers within the ten years after May 22, 1989, developers are required to install interceptor, household, and collection sewers, even if they will not be used until the area is sewered. Where public sewers are not accessible or dry sewers planned, the requirements or interim requirements for proper disposal of sanitary sewage for the subdivision shall be determined by the State department of health and the director. 20 modified to say within 10 years of 1989, so we need to go back and that should not have a drop date on it. This is standard practice anywhere in the country. When you are in the service area, you provide both. And it's cheaper now to pass the cost to the consumer than wait 20 years and try to dig up the road. That would become as costly as Pahala and Na'alehu. He wanted to see what commissioners think. As you navigate through the policies, we may find that one size fits all may not be adequate. We may need to have different strategies about how to connect the dots and be able to do it early in the game, rather than late in the game, and figure out who is going to pay for it. The County cannot continue picking up the tab forever for everybody. It gets very expensive. Chair Adams said that as she understands it, the current County Code had set up a requirement that new subdivisions had to put in sewer lines that would connect to a sewer treatment plant, even if the treatment plant had not been in place yet. They had set this hard date of 1989 and and time within 10 years. Well, we are way past that time so it seems like there should be modifications, so it seems like it makes sense that when you build a new subdivision, you put in lines that will eventually connect to a sewage treatment plant. She doesn't see personally any problem with that for new developments. And there may be some rare exceptions to that rule, but you deal with it as an exception rather than as a general requirement, unless there are those who think of some reason that we wouldn't want to go to sewer treatment. Commissioner McIntosh asked the Director to clarify the question. Director Mansour said some Council districts don't have a wastewater treatment plant, and that's going to be the exception. Your only way of disposal would either be an aerobic treatment unit or some other approved option. Ms. Pruder was saying that subdivisions will need to have their own treatment systems, because they cannot have clusters of septic tanks. It's going to be a lot of challenges and a lot of changes coming. He asked the Commission how from an advisory point of view it foresees DEM's policies to be shaped with regards to regulating our sewer system and our wastewater treatment plants with regards to subdivisions and new developments. Commissioner Burns said it's a really important consideration. Unfortunately, it's rare that government action plans adopt any form of a pragmatic approach, but considering the budget constraints and the realities with retrofitting a lot of these systems, it's going be difficult and it might be unrealistic. But there needs to be sort of prioritized areas that don't need full investigations but can rely on common sense. We have a lot of soil in Council District 1. The issues we have with contaminants going into groundwater or out into ocean waters is dramatically different from areas in South Kona or areas near the coastline. In the Kona Coast, he has been involved in a lot of research projects with the University of Hawai'i, looking at the flow of water from the mountain through our very dynamic subterranean water system. But we know that the closer you are to that runoff area, the more you have an issue of contaminants. It's just going to be nearly impossible on an island of this size with the different environments that we have to make a one -size -fits -all plan, and it's going to have to be dynamic. Maybe that's like reaching for the stars, but maybe that rubric of saying let's go into this, adapting unique 21 plans for each district, and let's have a prioritizing mindset. It's always the same case, we don't have the money to do all of it at once. But if we prioritize you could at least chip away instead of having a roadblock that prevents anything from happening, because there are small areas where the time is now to make a change, and there are other areas where we might say those resources could be best set aside until we get to there, it's just not the same top priority. That's just the reality we face with our current budget situation. Director Mansour said Commissioner Burns was correct. It's not going to be one -size -fits -all. We are dealing with decentralized versus centralized, urban versus rural. Because commissioners represent different districts, he would like to get feedback from each of them about how you foresee that for your district, and how you would like to shape our policies when it comes to sewer tie-ins for sewer treatment versus septic systems versus cesspools. The driving force would be the Department of Health because they have to make a decision on it, but we have to modify our codes to be in compliance with DOH and our needs. You hit it right on. That's the reason we try to talk about it. It's not going to be one -size -fits -all. And we don't have the soil in some areas, some areas we have lava tubes. Some areas have soil. So it's going to be site specific. The challenge is if you have a service area, already going to be dedicated to be tied in to sewer. You have the existing conditions versus the upcoming conditions. We did not control the existing conditions so he would rather use it as a lesson learned. So as we apply the future, we learn from our mistakes. That's his intent. Commissioner Olson said that he has seen examples on this island of both incineration and evaporation units that deal with solid waste, and some have succeeded in getting permitted. There is a lot of options out there if you open the door. Commissioner McIntosh said the other thing to consider is that if you require new subdivisions to create their own treatment plants or whatever, you want to avoid the problems where they just slap something together and throw it back to the County to fix. When you are envisioning it you need to think about the whole island and how to figure out, is the county going to be responsible for it or not? Director Mansour said that is a great point because as a government entity, it is always the private sector that will say, we are not in the business of wastewater, let's give it to the government. He wouldn't want to see the County taking on a hundred subdivision treatment plants in the future. That is why we need to work with the Planning Department and look at the next comprehensive update to the General Plan, and see where the growth is projected to be, an plan it. It may cost the developer more, but we will have a better system over the long run and in the long term be sustainable on this island. Otherwise, 20 or 30 years down the road we will be talking about the same thing. Eventually septic will be obsolete. We're getting rid of cesspools too so we could intercept it now and plan ahead for a long term solution, or a Band- Aid. That's where the challenge is. We have a lot of players and we have a lot of moves to make, but that's the reason we need to continue talking about it, to see what the commissioners think, because it will impact all districts. 22 Chair Adams proposed possibly coming up with a survey questionnaire, with a little more background to give to commissioners as homework to bring back for the next meeting. Director Mansour appreciated the idea. He said he was reading through the Kona Community Development Plan and one paragraph said, no permits unless all infrastructure is in the ground. So that discussion must have been taking place over the last 10 or 20 years. It seemed like it made it into our Code, but they modified it to say within 10 years after 1989, instead of just indefinitely until we build out the service area. And we somehow dropped the ball and people started building without dry sewers. Now who's going to pay for it? Is it going to be a community facility district, and how do you get 50 percent plus one to agree? People are going to say, I'm OK with septic. But if you handle it from the get -go with one developer rather than 200 different people, you already solved it. This is the intent, but any feedback you can give to shape our policy would be greatly appreciated. Chair Adams said it might help people to have it laid out a little bit more in terms of, this is what it's about, these are the two or three questions we have, go do a little bit of sounding out or thinking about your own district, and what that means, and then come back. Director Mansour rephrased the question to be: "Think of it as your district, how would you like to provide wastewater services to your district. Some of the districts don't have any wastewater treatment, so as individuals, think about for example, Puna district, I don't have any wastewater treatment plants, the County is going to be doing a study about the feasibility of putting a wastewater treatment plant. If not, then how is that going to shape up for the district? Is it going to continue being on septic, or is it going to be individualized treatment - based systems based on subdivisions or commercial? The standard thinking about how you would like to see your district being serviced with that wastewater." Vice Chair Gaffney said what we are talking about here is essentially a wastewater master plan for the island. While he thinks it's valuable that each commissioner provides inputs for our districts, and what we think fits, there are so many more parameters to master planning. To him, it's something that ought to be on our wish list for the federal money that is likely coming down for wastewater. The process would be to hire a consultant for the wastewater master plan for the island. That consultancy would then involve all commissioners as well as constituents in all our districts, and would be akin to the community development plans, which were very well -attended processes in the last two rounds of which he was aware. Rather than this being a project for the Department, this is a much larger project that involves DEM, Planning, potentially Water Supply, and other agencies, and this a natural fit to the Mayor's desire to look at this island from a sustainability point of view. If we are master planning for wastewater, that also involves the use of that water and its contributions to the recharging of aquifers. It's important for the Department and the Council to look at master planning for wastewater on this island. To his knowledge, this hasn't been done. There are a lot of technical aspects that must be considered. 23 Chair Adams agreed, and said it's not just wastewater management, it's water management, along with the contamination and decontamination of the water that occurs along the way. There's no way that this Commission can give the answers to all of that. It's a case of, we can maybe bubble up some of the issues we are aware of, and unique situations for our districts as a starting point. We certainly aren't going to be able to put together this huge master plan, but what we would hope to have is an overall management plan, that is trying to determine the sustainable use of water, and so what is the next step? Commissioner Olson said for him this is kind of deja vu all over again. We have in the past tried to get something similar to what we are talking about now started. In the past, the largest obstruction has been the State Department of Health. Beyond that, this island is unique in that we have 22 of the 23 described climate zones. The plan that will work for one district, or areas in one district, will probably not be appropriate for all districts. Dry side, wet side, altitude. All those things come into play. He is not saying don't do this — we've got to do it, but it is going to be a challenge. Chair Adams offered to work offline with Director Mansour on how we might be able to package this so we have more productive meting next time to discuss. 8. FUTURE AGENDA ITEMS a. Follow up on action items determined today. Chair Adams suggested possibly lining up Mr. George Hayducsko and Ms. Sanne Berrig from the Recycling Program to talk about future education programs that we have had, which have been primarily directed toward how you can reduce, reuse, and recycle. They have been doing bits and pieces in their spare time, so that could be very informative for us. We will try to see if we can get Rep. Nicole Lowen to present some of the legislative approaches she has been looking at, Chair Adams said. b. Other (Commissioners may suggest items they would like placed on the next agenda.) Commissioner Olson mentioned the Commission shipping containers go off the island empty. Chair Adams said she could not confirm this. 9. ANNOUNCEMENTS The next meeting is scheduled for August 25, 2021, online or at a location to be announced. Please contact the Department of Environmental Management or monitor the website for updates. 10. ADJOURNMENT 24 Motion, second, and vote: Commissioner Robinson made a motion to adjourn, to which Commissioners Fulton and Olson seconded, and the motion was adopted by a vote of 7 ayes (Adams, Burns, Fulton, Gaffney, McIntosh, Olson, Robinson) and two absent (Cardwell, Hoopii). Meeting adjourned at 11:45 a.m. Respectfully submitted, Peter Sur, Secretary 25