The URL can be used to link to this page

Home My WebLink About2021-12-14 Game Management Advisory Commission Minutes Game Management Advisory Commission County of Hawai’i Minutes Meeting Date: December 14, 2021 Time: 6:00 – 8:00 PM Place: Mayor’s Hilo Office 1. CALL TO ORDER/ROLL CALL: Meeting was called to order at 6:00PM by Chair A. Antonio District 1 - Stanley Mendes, Present, in person District 2 - Kean Umeda, Present, in person District 3 – Rhon Leomana Turalde, Present via Zoom District 4 – Brian Ley – Present, in person District 5 - Abraham Antonio, Present, in person District 6 - Grayson Hashida – Excused District 7 - Vacant District 8 – Cortney Okumura – Present via Zoom District 9 - George Donev, Present via Zoom Quorum Established STAFF: Delilah Schlueter, Attorney, Corp Counsel (via Zoom) Pomai Bartolome, Executive Assistant to Mayor Roth (in person) Barbara Kossow, Admin. Specialist Mayors Kona Office (via Zoom) 2. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Deferred. 3. STATEMENTS FROM THE PUBLIC ON AGENDA ITEMS: Chair Abraham Antonio, welcomes anyone that may want to say something regarding an agenda item may do so anytime throughout the meeting. 4. PRESENTATION: 1 a. Jerome Nickerson, District Manager of the Division of Boating and Ocean Recreation of Hawai’i Island will give us an update on issues related to the Kona Pier. Deferred as Mr. Nickerson was unable to join us. b. Peter Simmons, secretary of the Hawai’i Forest Industry Association will share forest management, concerns, and proposals. PS: OK. Thank you. Aloha everybody – a pretty nice crowd today – I’m very impressed. Well, there’s two issues that we wanted to discuss with you and \[unclear\] engage with you in \[unclear\] Hawaii Forest Industry Association – one of them is waiwi strawberry guava and the other one is feral goats. Both of those have expanded a little bit I think just recently and I think it would be good to start out with Don Bryan showing a short presentation on waiwi and then maybe we can have a discussion about that and then I’d like to move into the goat issue that may have gone into a statewide feral and wild animal discussion. But that’s all right. AA: Excuse me, Mr. Simmons – sorry for interrupting you but could you sit in this chair and then you could do your presentations. PS: OK. So Don are you ready to give a short presentation on waiwi project? DB: Good evening all. Thank you for the opportunity to talk to you about Hawaii Forest Industry Association and our project dealing with strawberry guava – I am – background – I am a forester – I’ve worked both here and on the mainland and I’m currently serving this president of Hawaii Forest Industry Association. HFIA has taken on a project that we call the healthy and productive forest industry initiative focused on a reduction of strawberry guava on this island and the reason that we are interested in this particular species with all of the Invasives that we have is just because there is just so much of it on this island. I’d like to show you a map that was prepared by DOFAW where they’re saying it is currently is this pest is present – I think most of the folks here have a pretty good idea what this stuff looks like – but it is a – one of the – before we look at everywhere that it is – I want to talk about the concept of zoning also – we are familiar with conservation zones – what we begin to focus on is that all conservation zones in this \[unclear\] strawberry guava in particular are not made the same – if you look at this map – the area that’s in red is conservation resource – what’s important about conservation resource - we’ve begun – many, many folks have begun to speak of conservation as though all conservation land was the same – it’s a – there’s a big fence around it you can’t go there – can’t use it – that was not the legislative intent or this all of this land that you see in front of you in red on the map – this is conservation resource and what the legislature said – they described the use of this land is that this land is for two purposes – generally recreation including parks, hunting and fishing, picnicking site seeing – whatever it may be – and also for commercial forestry. What has happened in the sixty years since has been that increasingly these lands have become overgrown with strawberry guava and they’re left largely inaccessible – you can’t get there from here – the roads are overgrown – the land is overgrown primarily with strawberry guava but other invasive as well and it was intended by the legislature that fishermen and hunters could use this land – at this point I think there’s very little use of it going on simply because you can’t get there and because there’s widespread belief that it’s not allowed, it’s off 2 limits – that was never what the legislators intended for that land. I’ll show you another picture from my – this is where the strawberry guava is – the red on this map shows this map is now about 15 years old – it shows where the strawberry guava was 15 years ago – identified. AA: Excuse me Mr. Bryan… Sorry to interrupt you but your second screen – do you have a picture on that screen cause we just have a black screen. DB: Thank you for letting me know that – the answer is yes – I have but obviously you don’t on yours – let me try again if I might. As you can tell – AA: Well we got the Big Island with all the different colors but your last screen didn’t share – DB: Yeah, you got that. PS: While Don’s doing that I can maybe show in a little bit – I was talking to David Okita – helicopter owner and operator about the waiwi and he just described it as you know right at the sugar line and then going about a mile up it’s like thick and a little above that it starts to thin out and you see some koa and Ohia coming through and then as it gets higher up closer to 3,000 feet it thins out a lot but it’s still there and it’s not going away. DB: Well, I’m, I’m not gonna use up your time while I’m rehearsing how to make my presentation here – but to add to what Peter is saying – the current number that is being used by the University and the US Forest Service people is 600,000 acres of Hawaii Island is now infested with strawberry guava and according to the US Forest Service researchers this is not slowing down and is not going to slow down for quite a while – think of those numbers – big numbers like 600,000 acres can be kind of confusing but that’s a quarter of our Island – one fourth – a quarter of the entire Island is taken over by this invasive so – and providing no service either environmentally or commercially as was intended by the legislature – what we would like to do as Hawaii Forest Industry Assn is pave the way for two things that we are working on right now – one is we are developing the methodologies to substantially reduce the strawberry guava – the first method and primary method is bio control – bio control methods have been tried out – they’ve been proved –they’ve proved safe they do not go to other species that’s an insect – you know, what the insect – when released does is reduce the \[unclear\] of the strawberry guava by 80% - that’s for both growth and for fruit production – while that doesn’t take it out that makes it possible to control and to bring back our native species on these lands that we are intended to enjoy both for commercial forestry and for picnicking, hunting and other uses so we see returning those lands to commercial use which will pay for rebuilding the roads \[unclear\] land to get access or gain control and for hunters and for harvesting and for management of the land. So that’s what we’re attempting to do now… PS: So that’s why we came to you guys – Peter Simmons – that’s why we came to this group because the recreational potential of those lands as you know – knowing those lands – you know that that’s a big deal and if we’re able to get access that would be a big plus too – one of the issues that’s been brought up to us in the past is that initially when the Forest Service was going through their – the same as going through their EA process there was some push back from a lot of people but hunters in particular had issues and so when Don and I brought this up that, oh, we would like to harvest some of that waiwi and take it down to the Honua Ola plant when they’re operating and they agreed that that would be a fairly good thing to do just out of, 3 you know, common interest and respect – that’s why we called on you - Don and I don’t own any land out there – we’re not – this is to improve – as Don said the healthy and productive forest that used to be there and that’s the goal of it – so if we could discuss that a little bit that would be useful. SM: Stanley – District 1 – so these lands are they accessible for the people to use or is it land locked and you cannot get in because there are a lot of forests that is State forest but because of private lands you cannot get to ‘em – so… PS: Yeah, I think that’s all part of it. We hadn’t thought of that issue and that’s a good issue but clearly if those lands were intended for recreational purposes - Hilo Forest Reserve for instance - then I think what’s only fair that we – that paths and trails and roadways should be provided whether it’s by condemnation of an easement through you know a landowner, however that’s done – you can’t land lock. But I don’t think this is gonna be easy I think Don didn’t mention it – we’re looking at minimum 20 years. SM: Yeah, because, you know like in Hamakua with all KSB lands that’s all land locked I mean if you want to go to the forest reserve… PS: Yeah… SM: …. that’s all landlocked – you gotta go get permission from them so… PS: Yeah, that’s true. That’s a lot… DB: I would add to what Peter’s saying and that would be certainly… SM: Don you gotta state your name… DB: Oh, Don Bryan… Ah… That would be part of our project is developing the access and that’s the first thing if there’s going to be – those two have come together by walking away from the lands – those lands had previously had access – that access is now it’s overgrown or somebody’s put a gate on it and that will be part of it and that’s why we say in this – frankly this number was kind of picked out of the air – but when we started we said 20 years to get this all done – to get this entire in excess of a half a million acres accessed but that’s one of the early on things that’s gotta be taken care of – is just physically getting there. Very first thing is to get the biocontrol working – and the second is to start getting the access – and it’s – I believe that the way that access is paid for we know that people will claim they already have money to build the roads but if we go back to the original intent of the legislature which is that commercial forestry – sustainable commercial forestry practice - that activity will pay and I believe should pay for rebuilding those accesses and dealing with those land lock issues. PS: Peter: I mean we’re looking at the very beginning of a 20 year project but working on this for about 18 months now just trying to understand what the potential is – discovering – I worked for Kamehameha Schools, I probably set up some of those leases that aren’t letting you through but, it’s an area of interest that I think has the capability of bringing a lot of people together over a really important resource for everybody so I’m hoping – in looking at this this is like the very beginning stages that we’re talking now - yeah, a lot of input will be needed to make this 4 thing right over this period of time this is not an easy thing but it is in front of us – if we don’t do anything then what’s the consequences of doing nothing? Well, I guess you write off a quarter of the Island. It’s a pretty black and white issue on this thing, oh, and I want to tell you, I had a career at Kamehameha Schools – I talked to one of my colleagues today and I said, how come you never looked at those lands in particular as conservation resource lands. We just looked at them as conservation “don’t go” “can’t do anything there” “we can’t go” “do nothing.” How wrong we were… All these years, yeah… Even sugar – when sugar was there – maybe they had it as forestry because they could then - in the early days – maybe use some of the wood – I don’t know but some of the area was used for tea – growing tea and coffee – mostly coffee – before 1929. But, anyway, it’s a public resource – a lot of it – a lot is private – and it’s there to be used for those purposes – and I think that and that we have a way, a mechanism right now of doing good – and paying for it at the same time – that is reconstructing maybe a canopy of those Ohia/koa forests and if you look at those lands – that’s where you have a lot of rot in those lands, you got fire ants in those lands, I mean, those lands are rough lands and they’re not gonna get in any better shape unless somebody starts doing something. TS: I have a question; this is Tony Sylvester. AA: Go ahead Tony… TS: OK, first of all we’re talking about 600,000 acres of waiwi and as Stan said how much of this is actually public land – that is accessible – or will be accessible in any time within the next 20 years – and also the double edged sword of accessibility is one of the greatest threats to our native forest because as these roads and things get cut in there other diseases, other plants and species advance into the roads and into the forest and that’s been proven in a lot of areas and there’s a lot of scientific data to prove that as well so you can all look that up and I guess my primary question is that there’s two things, there’s no value to the waiwi – I think some people could argue that there’s some value – to say that there’s no value when people eat it, people make jams and people do things with these things to say that there’s no value is one dimensional – also on the agenda is the area Kaupakuea by Pepeekeo – we tried ten years ago to get access in there – and that’s also an area where they planted tsugi pine and some other species and there’s some waiwi and stuff in there and there’s a state parcel back in there – and that’s a county issue and they would not budge on that – they allowed a subdivision to be built in there with fabulous homes and there’s a drop off right off the edge of the road and that’s all they gave us – there’s no place to even park to even access anywhere up there and the county basically told us to go pound sand – that they weren’t going to do anything about it - so I said I see what you guys are attempting to try to do – but as a hunter and as a resident of this island for five generations – I see this as just an assault to get rid of the waiwi because that’s a prime food source for our pigs, while there are so many other threats to the forest right now, a lot of these low lying areas you talk about with fire ants and all this stuff and rot and everything – you’re totally wasting time and effort to try be reforesting areas like that – I think that’s why a lot of the other resource users around the island worked at higher elevation or you’re out of this zone that you guys are trying to work in – you could say this is my opinion but I think the facts is there – once you displace something, something else is gonna fill in and native species take too long to grow and you gotta removing waiwi you’re gonna get some other plant that’s gonna grow in there and cause this curse that’s taking over everywhere, some brush, some pests – so I think you guys got to be a little more open as far as the actual plan of what you guys are trying to do cause all this land is mixed use and once the animals are gone it’s not mixed use… 5 PS: Right now much of it is no use – this is Peter Simmons, ah, Tony – I agree – I really do agree, especially second generation weeds following in – that’s an enormous challenge – but right now, if you go up to those areas – you can pretty much see the future in the lower elevation – you know, if you can go through sideways – you’re OK – it takes a long time to get through those patches – and you know that the native forest is not coming back unless it has some help fairly soon – it’s still seed source there – and I don’t really want to argue your points cause I think you have very good ones – in general – but I think that to do nothing and to know the consequences are so catastrophic… TS: Tony: Catastrophic to what, Peter? There’s rarely any native birds in these areas – what are we actually trying to save or do? That’s the part I’m trying to understand because man’s advancement along the Hamakua Coast – with homes and houses and everything that are blocking all this – it’s even more difficult now than it was ten years ago – in 1994 was the last time you could even pretty much move around on plantation roads and hunt pig and have access and all that – so that has gone away, and yes, you know, waiwi has gotten so ridiculous in places, especially up in Mountain View and areas like that – which I’m well familiar with – there’s no amount of money or resource to do this – you can’t get logging trucks in there – you’re gonna burn this stuff – power plant – I’m sorry guys – I mean, I’ve heard this stuff so much before – and there’s so much opposition even to the old Honua that the people don’t even want that plant to exist and most of those trees and things are as Stan said on Kamehameha School lands bordering other areas – it’s very difficult. I applaud you guys for trying such a monumental task but, I mean, you got to focus on one area and try something and get some results – I think – instead of looking at these 600,000 acres and all this stuff – there’s no way – I manage 5 acres and I can barely do it. PS: Well, Tony, I agree – this is Peter Simmons, I agree with you very much on starting small and getting it right and that’s what the first stage is – is to really define the tools – understand the consequences, etc. and, of course, every area is going to have its own problems and its own benefits and to start small is exactly what we’re trying to do. TS: Well, a good place to start is this Kaupakuea, Pepeekeo. I’ve been trying to get in there for ten years. Can’t even get a parking lot to park if you go hunt or even go hiking or anything. It’s a beautiful area – if you can get in there – but you’ve got to park along a drop off which is very dangerous and then the landowners have put fences right up to the road so you can’t even get off the road – I think it’s a great place to start – it’s on the agenda for tonight – we’re gonna talk about it – maybe you all can focus on that – see what we can do there – it’s just outside of Hilo – above Pepeekeo by the old gears – nice area – I went there with US Fish & Wildlife Service, Forest Service – we all went through the whole thing before. Nice forest in there – right next to Finance Factors owns 10,000 acres, I don’t know if they sold it. AA: No, they sold it, Abraham. TS: Yeah, yeah, so… I mean it’s my suggestion – it’s a great place. I tried for years – had all the passion trying to get that area opened up… AA: Yeah, Tony, stay on for that discussion later on. 6 TS: I will, thank you… AA: Thanks… TS: Thanks, guys… AA: Next… MC: Ah, Mark Crivello here AA: Go ahead, Mark… MC: I really like the idea of taking away the invasive waiwi problem that we have. I really like you guys thoughts and ideas about it. Is this something – as time goes on – we could do an animal management to help keep invasive out and help our plants to grow and with this animal management in these kind of areas too it would also be great for hunters and just keeping the place in check. PS: Peter Simmons, hi, Mark, ah, yeah, I mean, everything I know would tell me you need to have management of both the land and the critters – if you’re gonna have the best place you can so having a good quality management program would be critical. MC: Yeah, and I can see that being a big help to stop these invasive plants from regenerating and help our native forests in a lot of ways – so I thank you guys for thinking of this idea you guys have going and I would really love to see it in action. PS: Thank you, Mark. DB: This is Don Bryan, if I might answer some of the points that came up earlier – they’re good concerns and they all need to be addressed, first is ownership – who owns this land – and the answer is in rough numbers, just a little over half of it is State of Hawaii and then going down by acreage – next is the federal government – so between the federal government and state is 2/3rds government land then it comes to Kamehameha Schools and then all of the other – there’s 70 or 80 landowners that – it gets smaller and smaller – the other thing I would like to – just paint a little picture of what it looks like in mid-slope – we don’t need to see that very much, you know, because there’s just no way to get there – but a lot of this land – if you take a look at it from the air – what you see is the strawberry guava is moving up the hill and its overtaking Ohia/koa forests. Those Ohia/koa forests are still there but there is a great deal of dead and dying koa on those lands – you can see the dead tops easily, as you fly back and forth and see it from the air and the idea is to remove the strawberry guava, where strawberry guava has become the over story and has suppressed everything else. Take that out and when you do that – when you open bare soil there is almost always a lot koa seed and koa will come back on its own – if it doesn’t it can be replanted – and so it isn’t a matter of starting with the – in those lands – it’s not a matter of starting so much with what we see in our lower elevations everyday as we drive around – where it’s just a single species of nothing else but impenetrable waiwi – but it is a suppression of the native forest in action – and the concern that another weed will come along – I’m sure that’s true – I’m sure that’s evidently true – what we see right now is it’s going to be all weeds without human intervention. The native – our facts that matter, I’m 7 afraid, is our natives are simply are not equipped to deal with the likes of strawberry guava – they can’t biologically complete – they will lose that game – so I would love the idea that we could walk away – leave it alone and the ship would right itself but the ship’s got a great gaping hole in it and guys it’s going down. It will get worse every year as we go along. So those are the lands of particular interest – those lower elevation lands are going to have to be turned into – if they’re ever going to be the strawberry guava come off of them – they’re going to have to be made into useful lands whether agriculture or forestry lands – if you just take them off – we all know that it’s gonna come back again and other invasives will come back with it too. It’s gonna be a long complex learning process on managing the weeds and balancing those species with the animals that should be in that land – this is not gonna be simple – and we’re not, again, as Peter said, we’re not gonna try to do 600,000 acres at once – I go for I’m gonna say as a fact – I’m not gonna live to see it all done – but we can give it a hell of a good start and point the direction up the hill and demonstrate the processes by which it can be done and by which we can identify the other problems that will emerge as we go along – Tony Sylvester is correct – no doubt about it – that’s what’s gonna happen – seen it before. AA: Again, any commissioner or people from the public have any comments or questions for Mr. Bryan and Mr. Simmons… NP: I have… AA: Go ahead Nani… NP: Oh, thank you… Thank you. I have some comments from the public, Nani Pogline. So other invasives – right – we’re talking about Himalayan Raspberry, we’re talking about Clidemia – they’re just as vicious and they can get awful tall and they can smother native species like anything else and they don’t produce any food. The other consideration I think of is deterioration – strawberry guava when it’s dying it will lie down horizontal – it’ll stay non deteriorated and create a thicket where you – you know, a horizontal thicket – you would have a harder time traversing through it that we’re vertical and another concern – what about second, third, fourth effects of biocontrol. I mean, it goes on and on – think of the other infestations that feed off the original biocontrol effect and then, pig food. The strawberry guava creates pig food for our pigs which are a valuable resource to GMAC and hunters – and then there’s the ugly factor, I mean, do we really want to look at an environment that’s just diseased strawberry guavas along with the dead ROD Ohia – it’ll be so ugly – and then liability– so biocontrol does not stay put – it travels – so private landowners are going to have a big mess to clean up – who’s gonna pay for that – is that gonna come out of private landowners pockets so that could be something also – so those are my big concerns, thank you. AA: Hey, Brian… BL: Brian – District 4 – OK, I got two questions – one was – when the legislation passes something there’s always money attached to it and the first question is who’s responsible for mending the roads and the access that were originally there that they let go – you have any idea who was – was it the State the County, the Feds? I mean, if there was access and they just took the money and pocketed it instead of doing what they were supposed to do with it… 8 PS: Peter Simmons, yeah, you probably know maybe more than I do about Roads in Limbo – the County and State don’t want to own them – and they point to each other to say we don’t own them they’re in limbo – they’re undecided who owns them roads – and a lot of those are your more back part of the plantation roads up in that way – so in terms of – like Don said – in order to peel this apart and say, OK, access – let’s look at one area – how are we gonna get here – what’s the road situation – what easements do we need and all of that – each one’s gonna be different – and a lot of this stuff literally is finger pointing cause nobody wants to maintain ‘em… BL: We’re going through the issue right now – there’s places like go hunt with goats that when the fire came through now we’ve got this second generation tobacco tree that has taken over the roads and nobody’s clearing the roads and, you know, we’re losing the access cause they’re waiting too long so I was wondering if there’s somebody’s supposed to be taking care of that and who should it be and if there’s a budget for it – where is that money going to if it’s not being… PS: I’m not a government guy… BL: \[Unclear\] if you had any ideas and my second question was you were saying that this land was supposed to be planted for commercial use – was that the Department of Forestry that was supposed to be doing that and how come they never… PS: Just as an example, Peter Simmons, when you watch TV and you see the Governor or the Lt. Governor or the Senators in their offices – nice koa – you notice that – I’m sure – where do you think that came from? Largely from Hilo Forest Reserve, Laupahoehoe section – it was supposed to be studied as a restoration and rejuvenation project so that was gonna be going on forever up there but in 1974 when the Endangered Species Act was passed and a bunch of other kind of federal mandates kind of came through the harvesting on the Island stopped – I think it was around 4 million board feet a year at the time – the year before – and I think it was down to 800,000 after that and it kind of tiered down as it went – so basically, the easier money was coming from Washington D.C. in the form of matches for saving endangered species and you guys know, I mean, at one time hunting was a much higher priority for DOFAW than it’s become and we’ve been told recently that, you know, that commercial forestry is probably the lowest priority that they have but, that’s probably why I see us as kind overlapping our interests. We want to promote the hunters, we want to see that as a healthy ecosystem and then we see that if we’re fortunate enough to be at all successful and see an improved landscape – that’s not for me, I mean, I’d like to see it but I’ll probably be dead by then. BL: But like I said, we’re gonna cross a lot of dropped balls and we’re trying to figure out who dropped the balls so we can politely ask them to pick the ball and kind of run with it like they were supposed to. PS: Well, Peter Simmons, you know, one of the things I liked about the hardest, the hard questions here is that we need ‘em. What I hope is that you guys will say yeah – those are our forests too – we want ‘em to be healthy too and whatever way you want to describe them – and the generations to come are not leaving – there’s no exit strategy – so how are we gonna cooperate to make it right – and we’re here at an early, early stage really talking about in 9 general – and the reason that this kind of overwhelmed us is the sheer number of acres involved and when you look at the overlay and you see that those were lands that were intended for peoples’ use – then I say, hey, let’s reach out. This is a community issue – it’s not just a forest issue and the biocontrol – it’s here. You know, we didn’t bring that we – I don’t know that we would or wouldn’t have but the fact is it’s here – it’s been here for 13 years, I guess, approved and being put out in different places, I mean, I, Nani’s right, you know, that’s a fact, it’s out there, and it moves as the wind – so it’s already here – it’s a question of how long it takes not is it gonna spread – it’s intended to spread. Oh, and the last point I think, that I think, was brought up with – it’s very hard to have good animal management in a thicket, OK? You guys know that – so how are you gonna do your count, I mean, to do it properly – I’m not saying that we’ve had enough money from the state to do animal counts properly and to manage properly, if you were looking at an area, let’s say, of 5,000 acres – and it was a thicket – how would you know how many pigs you had and how they’re doing how do \[unclear\] diseases from… AA: Well, to answer that question we have Melissa Price in the audience – maybe Melissa Price can help you out with that… PS: Good… AA: Melissa Price is there a way you can answer Peter Simmons’ question or maybe he can send an email out to your partner – what was his name… PS: True – the point is you got to get there to do the counting in some fashion and if you can’t get there then it makes it very difficult to keep control of your numbers – for their own help… AA: So they’re already doing research on numbers and stuff that’s why I want to kind of bring her in… JBF: This is J.B. Friday at UH – sorry, Melissa said she stepped out for a second – I just wanted to mention that the way they were doing it was with game cams and just as Peter says – you need to be able to get in the forest to do surveys so, yeah, you can do it but as you all know – if you gotta hike through a mile of strawberry guava thicket’s gonna make it really rough. But the technology is game cams. AA: Thanks, J.B. SM: Stanley – District 1. My concern is for the animals and now you take away the banana poka – you wipe out the waiwi – what is there for the animals now – they going hit maybe the native stuff, right? So… PS: Peter Simmons – if there were – depending on the situation – a hungry, starving animal will do anything to survive, so, yeah… SM: And they moved down into the neighborhoods now – those pigs – so, um, maybe we need some food there for them – not wipe everything out, you know what I mean? 10 PS: Yeah, oh, there would be – just in this scenario – there would be some fruit on the side – it would be a lot less than it was but if you’re in one of these areas – is a game management area – and you’re managing it for the game… SM: You know, that’s the thing… PS: ….I’m not saying they don’t… I’m just saying this is what should be done, not is done right now… In order to manage the game properly, you know, right now they’re in bad – worse shape than they would be – if they were properly managed \[unclear\] so… SM: Because there’s no money for game here – the state is – they cannot use money to enhance game so… PS: Right, yeah…You’re totally right… AA: Are there any questions from the public? SH: Yes, Steve Hurt… AA: Hi, Steve, go ahead… SH: OK. At the end of your project – what is the vision that you’re actually after – what is the finished product? PS: Of course, they’re now unhealthy and unstable – lands that are unhealthy and unstable would be brought back to a healthy and productive state depending on the landowners’ interest in each area. SH: OK, on state lands what is that picture? The final product that you guys are looking for? Is it just the removal of the strawberry guava? PS: Or, no, it’s the reestablishment of the proper canopy and the release of the strawberry – when the strawberry guavas is taken off the site. SH: OK. Good, now – here’s the – my question I wanted to come out with and that’s the right answer that you gave me – what is the picture for that proper canopy? Is it trying bring – returns the way it was before man came or what is that actual picture and I’ve never been able to get an answer from anybody at any time on what the final picture is. PS: My picture – Peter here – Peter Simmons – sorry – my picture Steve is that in 40 years there would be a great deal more koa and Ohia and hapuu and access – people would be able to get places and do things and that the outer story would likely still have many alien elements that would just be part of the landscape forever and if you think about how you would manage \[unclear\] Clidemia and \[unclear\] Clidemia is in a working forest – well then you would manage the Clidemia like you would in a semi-agricultural setting, um, my picture is that we stop the spread of the waiwi going mauka because of the way this biocontrol works – and we reduce its vigor going all the way down the mountain to make it easier to manage. It’s a long journey and it’s a mistake for us, right now, sitting here to give the full vision because I’m counting on you 11 guys. I’m taking this is not a Don Bryan and Peter Simmons effort – that’s ridiculous – if the community doesn’t get interested in these lands – if we have resistance all the way on this – well, then, you know, this is not – Don and I don’t own those lands – we just have a vision and a mechanism to make it far more efficient to make ‘em better… SH: The reason I brought it up this way is they talk about reforesting and you see areas where koa has been planted and that is overplanted so close that it could never be natural that way and it chokes out every other form of life that’s under its canopy. So how or what footprint are you going to use for planting purposes on what goes where? PS: Well, Steve, I think we’ll call you up and say, hey, Steve, we got a 500-acre track to plant over here to work on – why don’t you come up and take a look at it – let’s figure this out… SH: Do that… DB: This is Don Bryan – I’d like to also add to Steve’s question which I think is an excellent question – what is the final vision and but part of the answer that Peter touched lightly that I want to revisit for just a moment – you got a \[unclear\] landowners – there are two things that decide what can be done in these lands – one is, first – what is the zoning – what is the intention of the state for the use of those lands and we’ve discussed that the significant part of them – about half – are in this conservation production area but no resource but there’s a lot of the land that’s also in protection zones that have not yet been taken over by the strawberry guava and still stand a chance – if we can slow it down substantially from going up the mountain – so if we’re to make a provision today and I don’t get to do that for all those lands cause I don’t own them – a lot of them are federal lands and state lands but they are intended to be native forests and the best thing we can do is to keep as many and especially the most aggressive invasives out of there and so that’s a draw the line around the mountain and stop it from going farther up the hill and stop it from continuing to dominate the species that are there – in general – at the mid-elevations lands – those are the lands that are badly damaged with native species and my personal vision, although I’m kind of an industrial tree planting guy – I don’t think that’s necessarily appropriate for those lands – I think something that more or less simulates what nature would do with those lands given that we’re not – we can’t go back 500 years – that’s not gonna happen – there will be invasive but there can be a multi-canopy, I believe, a multi-canopy plantation and I don’t think the plantation – plan ‘em on 10’ spacing in squares the right way to go, ah, a lot of it is gonna be natural regeneration – the seed is there and importantly, the seed that’s in the soil has the right seed for that place – you want the seed – don’t want the tree to come from the seed that’s already there – so that’s the best case – maybe some thinning needs to be done so it can return ‘em \[unclear\] quickly but the fundamental growth problem is that the waiwi is shade tolerant – it can get launched underneath the koa and overtop the koa and the koa and the Ohia are not shade intolerant and so they have a eventually kill those \[unclear\]. So, and that is a slow moving disaster across all of the mid-elevations that I’d like to see it slowed way down – if it’s a slow moving disaster let’s make it a lot slower – give us a chance to answer all of the questions like the ones that are being asked tonight – how in the world are you going to get there? How are you going to pay for all this – part of it – it’s gonna pay for itself – there are six different states on the West Coast – new commercial forestry and it pays for itself and it pays for other things too – it pays for all of land for the entire forestry departments and it also pays for things like education. We can do something approaching that here if we decide that’s what we’re gonna do – we could have those \[unclear\] in a multi-use forest – those lower elevation lands 12 that are completely taken over by the waiwi – I doubt that we’re gonna get back to a natural forest right now what we have is kinda for all intents and purposes for any use that you could name it isn’t anything – it doesn’t serve any environmental purpose – it doesn’t serve any human purpose and those cases that’s mostly private landowners – and that should be – that landowner – particularly there’s a lot of this land also that’s in Ag zoning – if we can manage the waiwi it could turn that land back – you have a feasible way to turn the land back into agriculture - what was intended to be in the first place - and serve some purpose for the landowner that’s there and create the foods that we need and create jobs so it is a complex answer because there are so many different circumstances that \[unclear\] what is on the ground right now – who owns the ground – what is the zoning – what are the wishes of the owner and what are the biologically possible with what’s there now – but also within – what’s from you folks and other groups like you guys where people can beat their own particular goals – maybe not to the extent they want to – but a lot can be accomplished that isn’t being accomplished today, I believe. AA: OK. Thanks, Mr. Bryan… OK, Abraham – District 5. First question again – what legislative bill is that that you’re talking about, Mr. Bryan? Do you have that on hand? DB: No, no, I’m sorry, I don’t have a bill in mind. I’m sorry, I… AA: OK. Can you get the bill to me…? PS: I’m not sure what you’re speaking about… AA: \[Unclear\] there’s got to be some kind of bill that he’s getting his information from – that’s what I’m asking… DB: I don’t know – there’s no bill in motion that has anything to do with this – I don’t know anything about it. AA: Well, according to you it’s not in motion but it’s something that should be filed or something – so if you can’t prove me a bill or some kind of legislative history than you just basically, sorry to say – but you just basically wasted an hour of our time – just by a simple question as that. DB: I don’t think we’re ready to write a proposed bill until we heard… AA: Sorry Mr. Bryan – Abraham – District 5 – so you was talking about the bill like there was something already in effect – is what I’m getting at – there was… DB: I’m sorry there was a misunderstanding – that certainly would be a useful thing to do, I suppose, at some point – that would be one avenue but I should think we get a lot more input from groups like this one on what people’s interests and concerns are before we start to draft legislation – I think that’s premature. But we could get people thinking… AA: Abraham – District 5 – I guess I see the miscommunication cause you was communicating this whole time that there was something that you was going off of and something that was already in place… 13 PS: I think I understand – Peter Simmons – the bill that was passed in 1971 probably-ish to label all of these different conservation district uses… AA: Yeah, that’s… PS: Yeah, OK, so it’s just – the underlying bill that made out conservation fee, conservation R, conservation G – all of those and what the uses are to be. That’s the legislation he’s talking about – from the 1970s. DB: Oh, oh, that’s, yeah, that’s many decades ago… AA: My question is what legislation is that so me or the members of the Commission and the public can actually go and do some research on it? DB: I’ll get the number back and send it to you… AA: OK. Thanks… DB: It’s in the zoning… AA: OK. So my next question – besides a questions – what’s biocontrol – what biocontrol you talking about… DB: Biocontrol is an insect that was imported from Brazil – it went through – it’s called \[unclear\] and it was undergoing about 10 years of research to see if it affected any other species – it was found that it did not – the State applied for – did an environmental assessment and they got back a finding of no significant impact in releasing that insect. AA: Right, so, Abraham – District 5 – so that’s the insect they released to go into the flower and eat the flower that not going produce fruit and kill the seeds? PS: No. Peter Simmons – this is the one – it’s a Brazilian scale – it bites into the leaf – lays eggs in the leaf – just in the leaf and by galling by putting galls on the leaf it reduces the vigor of the plant. AA: Right, it still affects the breeding of the plant or something? PS: About 80% of the vigor is gone so it’s kind of fruitless, flowerless, put out less branches… AA: All right – so a little bit of history. You know, I’m a lifelong resident, lower Puna, upper Puna, whatever – so I know the damage or the, how bad the waiwi is and, I hunted in Hilo side and also out in \[unclear\] so I know majority of the Island – yes, it does suck hunting in that thing and I really don’t approve it very much but as part of our scope as a game management and we need to look for – it kind of seems like you guys going to the waiwi and like Bryan said – then it’s the pigs – and then you guys mentioned ROD also – and they go after the ROD first and then they go after the pigs – because now they saying our ungulates is spreading the ROD – so if we go in and eradicate all the waiwi and there’s no other food source like I said, what they go next – they going to scrape the Ohia nest or the koa nests – and that’s like everybody’s main thing – is to get rid of one of our main resources on the island. They already got rid of, well I’ll say, 99% of the 14 sheep that it’s like a major – one of the other – the second major resource of the island that’s like not brought in by ship, you know, so like I always say – what happens if the ship stops sailing… PS: Yeah, good point… AA: There goes all our resources… So everything goes down to, you know, the easiest – to me it’s like everybody attacks the easiest thing – so let’s go after the waiwi, then next let’s go after pigs because the pigs causing more damage – now they going into the subdivisions and they causing more damage in the subdivisions when they should be up in the forest – so what going make them stay up in the forest – there’s no food up there in the forest – only going get grub – right – worms, vegetation, or whatever else they can find, and my other question is like – why you guys plan is only with the waiwi? Now you go up on the mountain and maybe it’s not as much as an area but you get that gorse – you can help go and take out that gorse, right? What’s the mapping – what kind of mapping thing do you guys have for the \[unclear\] ferns? I mean that has a cultural resource to it too, you know, as far as decorations and maybe Leomana can come up with some other usage for the uluhe fern but I guarantee you the uluhe fern get just as much coverage throughout our forest then the waiwi and hunting through that and the animals getting access through that it sucks too. DB: This is Don Bryan… AA: Hold on Don. And then – as far as you guys 20 years’ plan – 20 years if we or you guys’ organization can slow it down – at least slow it down and open up our areas and not take it all – then, eh, that’ll be great and we’ll support something like that, you know, and as far as the state goes – the state always says – zero is the number. Our game management is zero, right, so even with the – there’s got to be a happy medium number, right, and even with the waiwi – like Tony said there’s some people that they use ‘em – make jam – eh, I eat ‘em, sometime when waiwi season start – yeah, I stop on the road I grab some I eat ‘em on the way home… DB: Sure… AA: They’re delicious to me. I grew up on that, you know, so it’s like you can’t take ‘em all out – there’s got to be happy medium number… PS: Peter Simmons… AA: OK. Now you guys can speak… PS: Well, this bug – is already out of the box. AA: Right… PS: It’s not – it’s a question of when it’s gonna be over every place – not if – so it blows it blows with the wind – it’s been planted already out in areas – that’s already – that argument – I mean, I wasn’t in on that – I’d retired about that time when it was coming around – but the argument about we eat jams and jellies and the food is good – yeah, that’s absolutely true and those 15 arguments were heard – but they went through and they passed this thing anyway – it’s here – so, I can’t argue against what you’re saying… AA: Right… PS: ….but it’s already here… AA: Well, I guess, Abraham – District 5 – as you said – they already did the research on that bio control and what is it? It’s not working? PS: No, it’s working the way they expected – it’s just moving kind of slowly but still moving – and it’s been put out in a lot of different places so when the wind blows and the galls are there and the little bugs are little and mites are out and they go and it’s just already happening. So I can’t – that one can’t be put back in the box. AA: Right… Abraham – District – 5. But that’s a slow snail process, right? Who knows… PS: Yeah, biological – Peter Simmons – biological – I’m not an expert. I think, one of the things I’d like to emphasize to everybody here is that we’re at the early stages… AA: Right… Abraham – District 5 - but at the early stages is a good time have all these questions and comments come out… PS: Exactly, exactly, and that’s why we’re here and that’s why we would like to continue a dialogue as we go and make sure that we can do the best job we can. We may not agree 100% but if we agree 80% - if that 80% that we agree on – we can back each other up – we’ll have more… TN: Excuse me – Abraham, Teresa, can I say something? AA: Make it quick Teresa – it’s time to wrap it up already on this subject. TN: Bishop Estate – Kamehameha Schools – back in 1974 – did a single forestry planting of koa trees close together on Mauna Loa – then they understand that that type of single forestry didn’t work so they did a mixed forestry – fenced off an area and when we went to plant over 50,000 koa seedlings the koa trees in the ground – the seedlings were already starting to grow – but we planted them anyway and it started off their mixed forestry. Natural, biological control instead of bringing in foreign species and granted the federal parks brought in that mite to kill the strawberry guava is already here – the slow process is the way it’s supposed to be. Don’t rush things – cause nature takes time. And it should be done in increments in places that is mapped out with input from GMAC and other organizations and other landowners should be considered. So if this is the embryonic stages of your planning then include everybody into the process of what has happened in the past and what can be done in the next few years – a twenty-year process is too short a time – you have to be looking at hundred years – don’t be so short sighted. Your twenty-year project is not long enough to see results of slow-growing forest – this is Hawaii – we are isolated – nothing grows fast except alien species – get rid of the gorse – get rid of the other immediate alien species that are crowding out the native species and I’m talking from the native, endemic weeds that people think are weeds of which is actually medicinal plants – it’s teas it’s herbs that grow up in the forest in the high area and in the low-lying areas. 16 Our natural endemic species are climatic – they grow mountain to ocean – so you haven’t thought about the whole entire process – please don’t just bring your book knowledge here and other experience into this island that is unique and has endemic species that grow nowhere else in the world and think foreign, alien pests will get rid of other pests. It doesn’t work – a forest growth is slow – it is never fast. Thank you. AA: Thanks, Teresa. KU: Kean – District 2. Don and Peter – I’m kinda in support. I agree about that strawberry guava and waiwi – I think that for me I’d like to see a test plot done – like what Tony said – I think you should start there… PS: Yeah… KU: ….we want some numbers, you know, if it’s gonna take like Teresa said 100 years, you know, let’s get it out before we start going into the other areas and see where that goes. I think that’s a good test. That’s my opinion. AA: OK. Thanks Peter and Don… We’ll bring you guys… DB: Thank you for the opportunity… AA: Yeah, come back – we’ll bring you guys back in a few months and see what you guys get updated and we’ll do some research of our own as a committee and we’ll move forward with this. Again, I’d like to introduce Mr. Peter Simmons again – he’s gonna discuss goat over population on the west side and throughout the state. PS: Yeah… SS: Excuse me, this Sydney Singer… AA: Yes, Sydney… SS: I was supposed to make a presentation and it was about this subject – so before we move on do you want to hear an alternative view and some other issues regarding what we’ve just been talking about - waiwi? AA: I think that’s perfect, Sydney – you can move in. c. Sydney Singer, Environmental Anthropologist and book author, will share alternative viewpoints in forest management. SS: OK. Well, I think a lot of you remember what we went through back in 2009 when the County Council voted a resolution opposing this scale insect. I want to say that, you know, it’s interesting that attacking the strawberry guava with Tetracoccus – this scale – seems like everyone is served \[unclear\] ahead with \[unclear\] don’t know the ultimate outcome \[unclear\] what’s the ultimate presentation of the forest that you want – I think, really, that’s the way you need to start before you start killing things and infestingen worse. It’s important to realize about 17 the biocontrol – I was very much involved in this biocontrol issue – I got involved – I live in lower Puna and I have a large acreage and a lot of waiwi and I enjoy my waiwi and I think it’s actually considered an ornamental fruit tree – before you start getting into the invasive species label and it was brought here, actually, during the time of when Thomas Jefferson was president – so it’s like here over 200 years and it’s a hardwood – it’s got a lot uses and I think we’re being extremely insensitive \[unclear\]… AA: Sorry, Mr. Singer, hello… SS: I’m here… AA: You’re coming in sporadically… SS: Oh, that’s too bad. All right – let me try again. Hello? AA: You come in clear and then you get blotchy… SS: Well, I’m sorry about that – well, I’m in lower Puna like I said so we have cell phone – can you hear me now, are we in a good position? AA: You’re good right now as you speak… SS: OK. I’ll stand where I am right now facing this direction. I was saying that when we were dealing with the waiwi issue – one of the problems is there are a lot of people who do value it – it is an ornamental fruit tree – it’s in a lot of people’s yards and when you use biocontrol – the biocontrol knows no boundaries and it does spread and the fact that they’ve already released it against public opinion – against the county council’s resolution – against like over 5,000 petition signatures opposing this insect release – they’ve released it anyway – which shows a lot of disrespect – it’s adversely affecting groups of people and sub-cultures inequitably. Some people are going to suffer more than others by the loss of waiwi – and by the impact that would have on hunting. And I think in our time right now – in our culture – we realize it’s very important to be equitable and to respect the needs of various members of our community and depending on whatever income they have and what culture they have and for many people waiwi is part of their culture and part of their life and I think it adversely affects certain groups more than others to attack the waiwi and I don’t think that’s being considered. I also thinks it’s extremely tone deaf in this time of inflation to with prices going up with food being scarce – you’re talking about getting rid of a food source – to me that’s self-destructive and extremely insensitive to what’s going on right now – we need to be expanding our food resources on the island not destroying them – so right now – in current history – am I coming in clearly before I continue? AA: Yes… SS: OK. I think it’s important to respect a food source. Many people need that. Times are tough. This is not the time to talk about getting rid of waiwi or what waiwi feeds, which are the pigs. You’re also talk about – I think it’s important to know another problem with biocontrol – why is this an issue? You say the cat’s out of the bag – if it was out of the bag you wouldn’t be encouraging further biocontrol releases by helicopter drops of infested leaves – it’s not like that’s the answer – if you – if it was spread so widely now – you wouldn’t have to take those measures and I really 18 discourage that – to me that turns me – I’m fighting the entire waiwi issue because of the biocontrol – cause I don’t want that on my property – and there’s something – it’s like a taking a government’s taking – when the government comes in and wants your property – they have to compensate you. If the government released the strawberry guava \[unclear\] – we told them this when we were arguing this with their EA and all of that. You’re gonna have to – there should be compensation for the loss of trees on private property – if they’re valued by the owner – so you’re trying to include the public and make everybody on board which you’re gonna need to do – but when you use a biocontrol – unless the thing you’re attacking is hailed by everyone – so that nobody minds the biocontrol agent being on their personal, private property – if you do that – then there’s not a problem. But when you’re attacking the species that is valued, that has been labeled an ornamental fruit tree and has benefits then you are affecting people and taking away something from them of value and there’s going to have to be some compensation. I think the government is going to have to deal with that someday if it really gets bad – someone’s gonna have to sue – but this is an issue – and it is a moral aspect to this too, in my opinion – an ethical aspect. Just because you – some people – want a forest to look a certain way and we’re talking about human values – I’m an anthropologist – OK – I’m an environmental anthropologist – and I know how the environment really reflects human values – the way we define the environment and what we want to do with it. And, you need to be respectful for the various different ways people do define their environments and we need to not use methods that are sloppy like biocontrol. So when you do that you’re gonna get objections from people – if you want to go in and harvest waiwi in a responsible way – of course, some people already said – a lot of great things were said, you know, if you go in and make inroads you’re going to bring in more invasives. I mean, the waiwi has been here for 200 years – so the fact that it’s suddenly getting out of control probably reflects development and that there’s another factor that needs to be raised that no one’s mentioned – which is climate change – the reason things are in flux right now – environmentally – is because we are experiencing climate change – so you can’t just rely on old species that are born here and old patterns of growth and say things like the “proper canopy” as if God made Hawaii a certain way and it can only be this way with these species in this place. We are in a time of flux. There’s gonna be – there are other species and we have to learn to live with them and utilize them the best we can – some are obviously noxious that we’re gonna want to manage but we should do it in a way that doesn’t – the problem isn’t worse than the solution. I mean – the solution isn’t worse than the problem. So I think we need to choose our battles and we need to realize that the biocontrol agenda that you’re trying to promote is going to alienate parts of the public and is actually going to impact certain people more than others – probably low income people – people who rely on hunting and gathering – not everybody that does is low-income but I would guess and I hope GMAC someday does a survey to see who does the hunting around here? I mean, if we affect hunting is it affecting low- income people disproportionately? Is it affecting certain cultures, sub-cultures in Hawaii more than others because then it’s not fair. And, you know, you’re gonna make enemies with the biocontrol – so I don’t know if all of you remember the whole biocontrol issue or if anybody has any questions about that – but, you know, it’s a scale insect – it causes galls on leaves and it lowers their ability to – if you cut the waiwi – and there’s the insect around it won’t grow back very well, but it’s gonna be standing there sick – less productive than before and it’s still there and you’re still gonna have to get rid of it – so getting rid of sick and you’re talking about 25 to 40% of the forest being waiwi – and it’s gonna be infested – that’s like an infested forest and these little insects float in the wind \[unclear\] the leaves bubble on the leaf – the insect lays eggs that get extruded through the gall and into the air and carried with the wind and it’s gonna go everywhere – it could cause other problems on other trees – just because they said they’ve 19 tested in their environment what they – you know – of different species and the insect didn’t seem to affect it. That doesn’t show what might happen in the field in reality when the food source for the insect becomes lower – so the insect may go to other myrtles, which includes the Ohia and there’s a lot of potential down side to introducing a non-native scale insect against trees that include – in the family that has the Ohia. AA: Excuse me, Mr. Singer? SS: Yes… AA: Could you wrap it up in about a minute and then we need to move on, sorry… SS: Yeah, no problem. I think it’s important to come up with what you want – have a vision for the final outcome before you decide how you’re gonna – just start killing stuff and then we’ll figure out what we’re gonna plant later. I think you have to know what you’re gonna plant now before you kill things – that’s my personal feeling and I think that the methods that are non-invasive to private property that are respectful of the environment – of people’s personal environment – are superior to what’s being proposed. So I hope you take that into consideration and oppose the biocontrol part but continue to try to manage the environment – I have no objection to that – I think that’s great – with methods that are not invasive like an invasive scale insect. Thank you for the opportunity… AA: Thank you, Mr. Singer… SS: Sure, you bet… AA: We’ll move on to – back to Mr. Simmons about his \[unclear\] issues… PS: OK. Wow, well these are some really great comments – I hope you understand that we’re here to learn – we’re here to try to figure things out and try to improve where we live and I didn’t mention this but since this is the new topic – I was responsible for most of the forest land in Kamehameha Schools portfolio. I was responsible for buying the Hamakua Sugar company, I was responsible largely for planting the eucalyptus, I was… AA: Sorry Mr. Simmons, we need to be moving on… PS: ….OK. I’ll get there – and as part of my work – before I was with Kamehameha I was with McCandless Ranch – we had a hunting program there – Steve Arrington was our hunter – when I went to Kamehameha Schools I managed several hunting programs and I guess what I’m most proud of it the one with the Kahauloa Hunting Club – I helped create that with Duane Keanaaina. So I have some background in hunting and some appreciation for the people that I’ve met in the hunting community – so that’s why I’m here… One of the names on the list there is David Gross – David is a friend of mine and he – I’m a retired guy he focused my attention on goat issues in Kona and Kohala and another friend also pointed out the issues – dead animals and so forth and I said I would try to help – and I am not here as a government guy or an expert but I’m here just as someone who respects hunting and believes in hunting and good management of hunting game animals is something that we’ve been derelict at and the more I studied it – you guys are more experts than me, obviously, the more sad I got about the state of our animals and so I wrote a letter with the help of – well I talked to Mark Crivello about the 20 waiwi and I thought his goats might help with the waiwi and he helped me understand that that wasn’t going to happen efficiently and I talked to Darcy Nobriga – he does goat work – you guys probably know Darcy – but anyway – what occurred to me was that a lot of the people who have a lot of wisdom and smarts about animals haven’t been in the discussion about the animals – ranchers – I came from a ranch – foresters – you guys – it’s not penetrating to where it needs to penetrate to make a difference to health of the animals as well as for the general community. So, anyway, I wrote this letter and I got lots of help – Mark Crivello helped me on the first draft – it was too hot – too angry – so I backed off of that one – but eventually the letter – I was working with David Tarnas on another matter – Act 90 – I don’t know if you’re familiar with that – a leasehold issue for DLNR – and I mentioned the goat issue just as – hey, can we do something about the goat issue and he said, yeah and I said, you know, I got a letter and he said please send it – so I sent him the letter – I think I sent a copy to Stanley Mendes… SM: Um-hum… PS: And, um, basically his response was this is very timely, of course, the deer issue’s on Maui and so forth, he said, he’s been talking to other legislators about the management of feral and wild mammals and his tack right now is to maybe create a task force on each island to try to tackle some of the game management issues. I’m not a politician – there’s no bill that’s been written – no resolution or nothing – but he said – and he seemed very aware of the issues – now I don’t pretend to be – I’m just trying to organize the thing and I see an opportunity here. I talked to the Cattleman’s Association cause I have an affiliate – I just got a personal relationship with them – and they’re keen on helping the issue from their point of view and so I’m kind of as a coordinator guy right now trying to show folks that maybe collectively we could do better by the animals and by our communities and for ourselves with the circumstances that we have right now – not only goats – all of the animals. I know what starving animals look like – I know what they eat and I’m not proud of being part of a community that abides by that – I’m not proud of a community that doesn’t manage its animals – that’s not the way we should be – you guys know that… So what I’m kind of mentioning here – the reason I’m here with this issue is that, yes, people in Kona and Kohala have an issue with goats but the state has an issue and it’s been elevated a little bit because of David Tarnas – the state has an issue with its mammals and the laws are kind of weird – you guys probably know that wherever the animal stands – that’s who owns the animal and at the same time the state law and cruelty to animals doesn’t allow you to starve an animal on your property. That’s against the law. There’s just so many things conflicting – and it’s so complicated that we’ve made it so we can’t act efficiently – not only we’ve got accidents, you know, running into a pig on the Old Saddle Road was no holiday – but for people that are driving in Kona now running into a goat seems to be like a normal occurrence – pretty regularly and so I’m here because I want to suggest that through David Tarnas your help is needed to help with what your game management and the fact that the state hasn’t ponied up for God knows how many years or is broke or however it is – that’s not – I mean, that’s an excuse but that’s not legal. OK. I did talk to an attorney, I’m not saying this is a final at all – but I did talk to an attorney over a different issue – I said, you know, this is the state law that we should be doing this and so forth and they tell us that they don’t have the money for it – he said that doesn’t matter – it’s a state law. You don’t get the break – if you look at it as a handicapped access issue just cause you don’t have money doesn’t mean you don’t put it in – you get sued. Well, you know, I’m just suggesting that this has gotten to the point now where it’s affecting a much bigger part of the society then it quite often does – cause most of the time starving animals die in the forest… 21 AA: One minute… PS: OK. So, um, what I would like is for you guys to think about this opportunity – they have a little group on Maui talking about what to do with deer – they’re kind of frustrated – I don’t know who all they are – I know they’re cattlemen but I don’t know which ones in particular – they’re frustrated cause they’re not making any action, OK? The reason I went through the Cattlemen and you guys is because you’re people of action and so I’d like your help when it comes to this – whatever David Tarnas writes up is coming here – whatever you guys could help with – maybe organizing on other islands. Is this the only island with a group like this? AA: Yes, there’s also a state game management… PS: OK, so how can we help him do better for the animals and for the people who live with them – that’s what I’m here for… On that topic… AA: OK. Thanks, Mr. Simmons… You know – table the comments for next month’s meeting – we’ll bring you back to next month’s meeting to listen to your concerns and everybody going think about it over the next month cause we’re running short on time and then we’ll invite you next month – come back – and we can have a better discussion on this… PS: Sure… AA: OK. And thanks for your guys Ohia/waiwi presentation and also your concerns with the goats, but we’re gonna have to move on at this time… PS: OK. All the mammals… 5. OLD BUSINESS a. Update on the County GMAC letter requesting the County Planning Department to pursue the development of the Kaupakuea public access into the Hilo Forest Reserve. AA: All the mammals, right on. OK, um, Old Business update – Kaupakuea public access and the update with that is the letter was sent and received by Kamuela Plunkett. He asked for some more information – plans and stuff like that – and all that was – everything that Nani worked to get was all sent to him so we’re just waiting for him to come back. Tony – just real quick – we were working – this topic came up a few times already within the Commission – one, we had Ian Cole and Jason Omick so our plan is if we can get the county – they’re complaint – and even Steve Bergfeld – they’re complaint was the county owns the road so they don’t want to make no access or parking access better or in that sense up in that area – so we wrote – Nani did some enquiries about the area through the county and she was told to go through the Planning Department and so that’s where we’re at – the state also said if we get the road fixed that they would go and make – finish off the road on state land and make parking access – a parking area up in that area – so hunters and other forest users can actually access that forest in that area. 22 TS: OK. Yeah, this is Tony – yes, when we were working on this – there was a lady and I can’t remember her name – she actually owns an adjacent property there and she was willing to work with us at that time and a \[unclear\] call to the county and the county – at the end of the day – said we got no money – we’re not gonna do nothing. But right across the street – the mauka side – there’s a small area right next to the road that is planted with – like I said – a tsugi pine and there’s other stuff in there – it’s a little bit thick maybe about 50 feet – and then it opens up into a nice forest – but as you get farther in the back then it starts getting thick again – and the state parcel is tucked away behind in there behind private land so we thought that area that has the planted trees – that’s state land cause the state forestry planted those trees – why couldn’t they clear out a small section in the front there – all they got to do is lay down some aggregate… AA: Right… TS: ….at least you can pull over and park – at least get off the road – and we couldn’t get them to budge with that and then the administration changed… AA: At that time that was ten years ago – so now we get new people in office and all that… TS: Yes… AA: ….so hopefully we can move forward with that area with this new regime… TS: Yes, I think you might have a good chance – we try to do it… It’s a low hanging fruit, I mean, like I said, we worked with multiple agencies – Fish & Wildlife Service and everything because they want access back in there too. AA: Is it OK if I share your contact information with Leomana – he’s kind of like the lead on that area – cause that’s in his district… TS: Sure… AA: ….and then he can get more history on it with you… TS: OK. Sure… AA: OK. Thanks. I’ll share it with him. TS: OK. 6. NEW BUSINESS a. Recognition of Stanley Mendes, for his faithful and excellent service as a GMAC commissioner and vice-chair AA: OK, so that’s the Old Business. Next we going recognize Stanley Mendes for his faithful and excellent service with GMAC. We have Pomai Bartolome that’s gonna present him with a certificate… 23 PB: Right. All right. Hi guys, first of all I’m Pomai Bartolome, Executive Assistance at the Mayor’s Office and also lead with Boards and Commissions and we want to present this certificate of appreciation to Stanley Mendes – Stanley – this is for your distinguished service as a member of the Game Management Advisory Commission – we appreciate you and everything that you contributed here at GMAC – and I’m sure everyone else feels the same way – I’m not sure if we’re gonna give the opportunity to some of your commissioners to share a little bit as well, but from the Office of the Mayor we appreciate you and everything that you’ve done, again, for GMAC and look forward to know what you’ll continue to do – so… SM: Thank you… PB: Thank you so much… SM: Thanks, Pomai… PB: You’re welcome… AA: Any commissioners want to give Stanley any positive thoughts? TS: Congratulations Stan – it’s Tony. SM: Eh, Tony… AA: Stanley, good to know you – Abraham – District 5 – met you when I was just a public person – got to know you a little bit – got to know you little bit more better as we both in the Commission together throughout the last few years, so, right on, thanks for all your hard work and help us keep pushing forward – but you’re not running away yet cause nobody for replace you in 90 days. So you still going be with us for 90 days. SM: Well, thank you guys for the opportunity… AA: OK. Next… Dalilah (Schlueter) would you mind taking over for the elections? b. Elections – GMAC Chair and Vice-Chair. DS: Yes, absolutely. Happy to help. So as the board members know – what the public knows as well – for the agenda item it is time for officer elections for the Game Management Commission – we will be proceeding with elections for the Chair and the Vice-Chair, so to kick this off I would like to welcome any nominations for the position of Chair of the Commission. May I have a motion from anyone for a Chair? BL: Brian – District – 4. I’d like to… AA: Hold on, hold on Brian. Cortney asked a question. CO: Oh, no, sorry. I was going to make a motion – go ahead Brian… BL: Oh, I was gonna nominate Abraham to continue for another year of Chair. 24 CO: Cortney – District 8. Second… Action: B. Ley, motioned to nominate Abraham Antonio to continue for another year as Chair. Seconded by C. Okumura. Motion carried unanimously by a poll vote of each member conducted by Attorney Dalilah Schlueter. DS: All right, we’ve got a motion and a second on the floor for the nomination for Abraham to continue as Chair. Can we call for a roll call vote? \[The ayes have it\]. The vote carries and now the next item – may I have a motion to elect a Vice-Chair. SM: Stanley – District 1. Motion to elect a Vice-Chair – I’d like to elect Brian Ley. KU: Kean Umeda – District 2. Second… Action: S. Mendes motioned to elect Brian Ley as the Vice-Chair. Seconded by K. Umeda. Motion carried unanimously by a poll vote of each member conducted by Attorney Dalilah Schlueter. DS: OK. So we have a motion and a second. So we’ll go for a roll call vote again. \[The ayes have it\] The motion carries. We have a Chair continuing as Abraham and a Vice-Chair Brian Ley. Now, I’ll turn this back over to you Chair to continue the agenda. AA: Thank you, Dalilah…. Barbara, would you like to make a comment on the next year’s meeting schedule? c. GMAC meeting schedule for 2022 year. BK: OK. Sure. For 2022 we’re gonna just continue with every second Tuesday of the month unless you all decide that you want to change to a different time, if not, I’ll be sending out the schedule. d. Meeting ideas to place on agenda for 2022 year. AA: In the future – is there any ideas for next year’s agendas? I still got Brian’s one with the invasive species people to come yet… Besides that does anybody – and we also we get Peter Simmons and Don Bryan to come back and Jerome Nickerson. Is there anything else throughout the future that the Commissioners want to see come up or anybody from the public? TS: Ah, yeah, this is Tony, Abraham. AA: Yeah, Tony… TS: You guys should try to get somebody from Hakalau Forest, you know, up there. They did a presentation a few years ago at the college and was really good. Was actually the first time I actually got to see a big project – like restoring a forest – where they reflected back on thirty years of doing that and what the outcome was and the wisdom that they had that they headed partly in the wrong direction by planting koa trees and they shouldn’t have done that. I think that would really help in our discussion moving forward on this topic and the primary plant is 25 Ohia to start native forest regeneration because of its basal structure. They found many more species in the understory of Ohia then under koa – koa jus encourages grass growth – Kikuyu grass and so forth. I think if we could find someone from there to actually discuss their successes and failures – also koa did not allow any pathway for the native birds – they found out they weren’t using the koa corridors at all. So, I think there’s a lot of useful research already been done and you might want to hit up with them. It’s a very interesting discussion at the University. I can’t remember the guy’s name – I might be able to dig it up – but if you could just somebody from there to come to one of these meetings I think would benefit what we’re talking about here today with Don and Peter also, you guys would probably be really interested in that, if you haven’t heard that already. All right, that’s it. Thank you. AA: OK. Thanks, Tony, yeah, if you can dig up how to get in contact with them – that would be great and, yeah, I think you invited me to that meeting before but I was working at that time, but, yeah, I will. TS: OK. Thank you. AA: Thanks, Tony. Yes, Dexter (Egdamin). DE: Yeah, how’s it going guys. I missed the last month’s meeting and you had a speaker about the ADA – so I was wondering maybe on the agenda next year you could put on – bring that guy back – or somebody out there that’s a hunter – that is disabled and handicapped or disabled and give his impressions of what he thinks about how the hunting should go – especially like they had mentioned the youth and the disabled people hunting together how dangerous that was and also like Stanley’s input as far as the flag on the vehicle and what that does and I need to get more information about what can be done to enhance the hunting availability – they don’t say for mobility handicapped people. Not just people who can shoot across Waiakea walk ten miles, I mean, people who need hunter assistance to shoot from a vehicle even if it’s gonna be like certain days of the week so they can do it safely or, you know, things like that. I want to get more into that – as you can guess I am a disabled person, so I’d like to see what more options that could be made available to me and I really like to have Stanley available to get his input because he seems like a one that would really be advocating for the handicapped. Thank you. AA: Um, yeah, so, Barbara do you have Dexter’s contact information? BK: Yes, I do. AA: OK. Dexter is it OK if we share that with Stanley and then you and Stanley can get in touch with each other. DE: No problem. No problem. AA: OK. Right on. Thanks. SM: Thanks, Dexter… 26 DE: Thanks, Stanley, no worry Stanley, I like what you have to say. The worst thing that I got out of the recording that Barbara sent me about that meeting cause I missed it was that the comment that Dean Aoki – the guy with the ADA said that – he wasn’t a hunter – so I was kind of wondering why would a non-hunter being trying to \[unclear\] and not know what the disabled hunter goes through. So that’s my biggest concern and Stanley was trying to get the guy straight and I think Stanley and I we pretty much discussed this and get it going… AA: Exactly, and then when you guys get ‘em figured out – then we invite him back over when you guys – Stanley get his contact information and if that doesn’t work then we can bring him back in. DE: You don’t mind talking to me Stanley – I get plenty… SM: No worries… DE: Thank you, sir… AA: Ah, Thanks… TN: Abraham, Teresa in Kona… AA: Yes, Teresa… TN: Whose responsibility is it on the main highway especially by Keamoku stretch from North Kona to Waimea that the goats are literally on the highway? It’s something that we need to look into and if that could somehow be looked into for next year. AA: That’s in District – 7, right? TN: Yes. AA: So we don’t have anybody in District 7 right now. TN: Could you find out who is responsible? AA: I can try to… TN: Thank you… AA: Yeah, thanks… Any other ideas? SH: Yes, Steve Hurt… AA: OK, Steve. How’s it going? SH: Good, good. I’ve been doing a little bit of research and I’m wondering if early next year if I can get enough research put together – approaching the County Council to allow licensed dogs during bird hunting seasons to be able to stay at the park – Mauna Kea Park – and I’ve gotten information from quite a few states, actually, that have no dogs allowed except during their bird 27 hunting seasons and the dogs have to be tethered – they can’t be on a tether more than 6-8 feet – and this goes back to something that prior to the park turning over to the county from state – our club had made little condos for each one of the cabins so that the dogs could stay inside and those have been pushed off to the side and we talked with Mayor Kenoi at the time and with the county park – we asked about having – being able to bring those back in and have it with the No Dogs signs all over the place but he said he actually had an engineer that was trying to design for such a thing – we’ve never heard a single word about it and Tony Sylvester can verify what I’m saying cause he was there at the meeting with him… AA: OK… Steve, that sounds good – we’ll try get that going. That’s exactly what we’re here for… SH: OK. I’ll try to get us more information and put it together in a package for you folks. AA: Yeah, yeah, let me know… Thanks, Steve… SH: Thank you… e. October 19, 2022, “Out Doors Day” planning AA: OK. Next one is October 19, next year – Out Doors Day planning. We’ll move this on but I’ll just give you guys a rough backing on it. So we have funding from the county – Tom Lodge, a previous chairman and other commissioners fought for our funding through the county council and he had a plan to have like an outdoor event which can bring together all outdoorsmen, hunters, fishers, gatherers, you know, whatever. So let’s see if we can get something together by inviting DOCARE, by inviting S. Tokunaga, G. Hara and just have an outdoor – some kind of event – kind of like an outdoors day fair or something so – keep that in mind and we’ll discuss it at our next meeting. f. Vote on shooting range development legislative bill. AA: Next one – Nani Pogline came up with information on the shooting range development – it already went to – actually, Nani, can you touch this up real quick? NP: Yes, Nani Pogline with the legislative committee – public member. Back in 2017 GMAC fought hard on the county level to get a bill put through – a resolution – in the county and we won it and it was a resolution supporting the development of a Hawaii Island Shooting Range. Did everybody get a copy of this resolution – the commissioners? AA: Everybody shaking their head Nani, so, yeah… NP: Oh, great, great. Anyway, so nothing happened with this and so would like a vote from the Commission to make this another bill in the legislature – that it may take a bill in involving the state to get our user-friendly public multi-purpose shooting range on the Big Island. Thank you. Action: S. Mendes motioned for GMAC to move forward and pursue the Legislature with a bill for the state to act on a user-friendly public multi-purpose shooting range for Hawai’i Island. Seconded by C. Okumura. Motion passed unanimously by voice vote. 28 AA: OK. Barbara, Stanley made a motion, Cortney second – we going take one oral vote. All in favor? Barbara – all in favor – all ayes, no nays. Thank you. Ah, Brian’s bird hunting season update we’ll move that to next month. Commissioner Reports by district? Legislative Committee? 7. ANNOUNCEMENTS a. Brian Ley will provide an update on the 2021 bird hunting season. Deferred to January’s meeting. 8. COMMISSIONERS REPORT BY DISTRICT: BL: Brian – District 4. We took a 200-pound pig and we cooked it up for community and fed a bunch of people on Saturday – getting the word out with GMAC – it was a GMAC sponsored event – we had a good turnout in Keaau – had some good conversations with people so it was another good turn out so… Hopefully, we’ll get another big pig and we can do it again soon… AA: Any other Commissioner reports? CO: I just wanted to add something real quick about the – from the legislative committee. We wanted to ask if any commissioners have any pre-existing relationships or networking connections with any Big Island legislators – any politicians? You could help us with that – you could reach out to me – my email address or otherwise and let us know so that when we are making calls about getting support for certain bills that GMAC is supporting we don’t have to go in cold – we’d really appreciate it – so any networking that anyone has to offer please reach out to me or Grayson or Brian – let us know so we can move forward on some of these things. AA: The Legislative Committee had a meeting with Dave Tarnas who did not want to support any of our bills. So, um, if you guys have any contacts with any other representatives then please pass it our way. Cortney did you want to touch up with what Grayson had? CO: Oh, commissioners – Grayson wanted all of us to make sure that we are able to submit testimony in favor of the bills that we’re going to be supporting or that are voted to be supported by GMAC so if you’ll look at the email he forwarded – everyone needs to get registered at the capital.hawaii.gov website and set-up their account so that you can be ready to go when the time comes so a friendly reminder to check that email out, get yourself registered and then we’ll have one less step to do at that time per Grayson. Thank you. AA: Thank you, Cortney, and just a reminder that’s not just for commissioners that’s also for the public. CO: Oh, of course, yes. Members of the public as well. TS: Abraham, this is Tony. AA: Eh, Tony? TS: Yeah, did you say that Dave Tarnas wanted nothing to do with anything you guys are doing? 29 AA: Yeah. TS: OK. Well, the other gentleman just here is working with a bill that they want us to help them with – written by the same man who doesn’t want to help us with anything… AA: Yeah… TS: OK, yeah, I’ll try make a few phone calls. I’ll talk to you later. Thank you. 9. COMMITTEE REPORTS: 10. ADJOURNMENT: Action: B. Ley motioned to adjourn at 7:57pm. Seconded by K. Umeda. Motion passed unanimously. Respectfully submitted by, Barbara Kossow Secretary 30