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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2005-01-21 THOLMES0114 PLANNING COMMISSION COUNTY OF HAWAII HEARING TRANSCRIPT JANUARY 21, 2005 A regularly advertised hearing on the application of STEVE HOLMES (SMA 04-008) was called to order at 10:00 a.m. in the King Kamehameha's Kona Beach Hotel, Kamakahonu Ballroom, 75-5660 Palani Road, Kailua-Kona, Hawaii, with First Vice- Chairperson Hannah Springer. PRESENT:William GrahamABSENT & EXCUSED: Fred Galdones Jeffrey McCallC. Kimo Alameda Rene€SiracusaEarlFujikawa Francis Smith Hannah Springer Ivan Torigoe, Deputy Corporation Counsel Roy Takemoto, Deputy Planning Director Norman Hayashi, Program Manager Phyllis Fujimoto, Staff Planner Jeff Darrow, Staff Planner Kiran Emler representing Department of Public Works And approximately 10 people from the public in attendance APPLICANT: STEVE HOLMES (SMA 04-008) Special Management Area (SMA) Use Permit to allow the conversion of a single family dwelling into a 3-unit multiple family residential structure and related improvements. The 5,419-square foot property is located 230 feet east (mauka) of Alii Drive and Kahaluu Beach Park, Kahaluu Beach Lots, North Kona, Hawaii, TMK: 7-8-14:41. SPRINGER:This application was heard by the Hawai i County Planning nd Commission on December 2. The previous vote was 3 ƒ 2. At this time I€d like to invite Mr. Torigoe to give us some background and guidance on how to proceed with this matter. TORIGOE:Thank you, Madam Chairman. I€d just like to refer you briefly to the Planning Commission rule 9-11, D-1, which is on page 9-13 of the rules. It actually starts on 9-12 but, basically, this rule states some time limits, that is within 30 calendar days after the conclusion of the hearing or a longer period that may be agreed to by the applicant the Commission shall render a decision. If the Commission fails to render a decision to approve or deny within the time limit, then the rule says that the request shall beconsidereddenied.Theapplicantmayalsorequesttheauthoritytodeferactiononthe application. A decision to defer action shall require a majority vote of the total membership and again this needs to be done within the time that we have left. I think at this point in time, at the last hearing there was a general consensus, a lack of objection to a extension to today€s meeting. So, at today€s meeting you should make some kind of decision to either approve, or deny, or to defer; and if there is no 5 vote decision to take one of those actions then under this rule, the request is considered denied. We still- well, I guess we€ll, we€ll deal with that when we get to it. SPRINGER:Mr. Torigoe, will it be proper to hear the staff background report and following that ask the- engage the applicant€s representative in a discussion of the options before them? TORIGOE:Sure, you can do that. SPRINGER:Thankyou.Atthistimethen,I€dlikethestafftogoaheadwith the presentation on this application. DARROW:Thank you, Madam Chair. If I may direct your attention to the location map. This application is located within the district of North Kona, more specifically along Alii Drive which is identified by this white line running in a Northerly- Southerly direction. The location of this application is approximately, directly across from Kahaluu Beach Park, it€s identified by a red dot on the location map. There is a site plan that has been submitted by the applicant, which shows basically the layout of the structure. This is a proposed, the applicant is requesting that his single-family dwelling be converted to a three-story multi-family dwelling. There are pictures that have been passed around identifying what this structure looks like. At our last meeting, nd December 2, a motion was made to deny the request, this motion was seconded but it did not pass. Again it was 3 to 2. So, at this time, you have the option of approving, denying or deferring. SPRINGER:Thank you, Mr. Darrow. Commissioners, are there any questions of Mr. Darrow at this time? Commissioner Graham. GRAHAM:Thank you, Jeff. One question that I wanted to just get for clarification relates to, a testifier we had at prior meetings was speaking of the access road down to the highway being a real problem and the condition of that access road is not particularly germane to an SMA permit, I believe. But I would like know if you could just tell us, what authority the Planning Department has as far as whatever permits or whatever actions they need to take to complete this change to a 3-unit, what authority the Planning Department has to sort of require some kind of improvement to the access. DARROW:As mentioned previously by our Director there was a case prior, theToplisscase,involvingwhetherornotthesetypeofimprovementswouldberelative in an SMA major permit. And at this point, he was saying unless there€s specific environmentalorsubstantialimpactstotheSpecialManagementAreathattheyreally couldn€t place any type of conditions on this type of improvement, unless it can be specifically shown that it€s going to have some sort of direct impact. GRAHAM:That€s not quite what I was trying to get at. Let€s just assume, suppose this wasn€t even going on in the SMA area, suppose it was going on somewhere else. Now there€s requirements I€m sure the developer has to adhere to as far as the access to his property to do this condominium project. So I was just wondering if irrespective of this SMA permit we can kind of see in the future what kind of restrictions or requirements the Planning Department or the County may insist upon as far as access to this so it at least gives us a feel of what will result from what we€re doing today. DARROW:This might be a better question for Department of Public Works representative Kiran Emler, as far as access and roadway conditions. EMLER:IthinkCommissionerGraham€squestionwasdirectedtoasto whether or not the Planning Department had any authority over whether or not, over the access to the property in general. And then the question was deferred to the Department of Public Works. Department of Public Works has authority over grading issues, so construction issues having to do with excavation and fill, perhaps the construction of the driveway itself, and during that construction period. An existing driveway such as what we€re talking about in this case, I think our authority is very limited. I don€t know if that-, if that€s a progression of your question or not, having to do with this case. Because I believe the issue was having to do with erosion and the condition of the driveway itself. That€s my recollection from the testimony, in the previous hearing. I think the question came up as to whether or not the Department of Public Works had any authority to deal with a problem of erosion and deposits of material onto the County road and possibly washing over into the beach on the other side. I looked into our, also our Chapter 22 , Hawai i County Code Streets and Sidewalks and that Chapter does have a provision in it regarding damage to public roadways, streets in particular and sidewalks. It does have a section that prohibits a person from spreading gravel, oil, other substances that would damage persons or property, or be hazardous to persons or property. I can€t exactly remember the exact wording, but that€s, that would be something that we could look into. It might be based on the wording possible or challengeable in this case because it€s not a person that€s doing it but it€s runoff that€s doing it; and so it€s possible that we could take some action whether or not it would be challenged, I don€t know. Does that answer your question, Commissioner Graham? GRAHAM:Good enough, thank you. SPRINGER:Other Commissioners? Before Mr. Emler leaves I have a question. Are there any specific ordinances pertaining to driveways or is that what you were citing from? EMLER:Well, Chapter 22 does regulate the construction of driveway approaches within the County right-of-way itself, but not on the private property. There are regulations in the Subdivision Code regarding requirements for driveway access. SPRINGER:So the crux of this part of the issue is that the driveways enter and exit from a private lane? Is that the basis of the limitation of County authority? EMLER:I€m sorry I don€t understand the question, can you repeat it, please? SPRINGER:Is- in the example that you just gave, the County has authority when the driveway exits or enters a County road, is that correct? EMLER:Correct. The approach within the County right-of-way itself only, from the pavement of the County road to the property line, the edge of the right-of-way. SPRINGER:And that does not pertain to this application, is that correct? EMLER:Well,wewouldregulate,becauseAliiDriveisaCountyroad,we would regulate from the-, with-, the approach within the public right-of-way. SPRINGER:But not on the private lane? EMLER:Correct. SPRINGER:Thank you. Other Commissioners any questions? At this time would the applicant or representative come forward. And at this time we have one member of the public, Ellen Kjos, I believe. KJOS:Kjos. SPRINGER:Kjos. Thank you. Ellen Kjos has signed up. If there is anyone else wishing to give testimony on this matter, please indicate so at this time. I€d like to ask the applicant or the applicant€s representative, and all those who have signed up to testify or who wish to testify, please raise your right hand so I may swear you in. Do you affirm or swear to tell the truth on this matter now before the Hawai i County Planning Commission? TESTIFIERS:I do. SPRINGER:Thank you. For the applicant and your representative, did you receive the Planning Department€s background and recommendation? MOOERS:We did. SPRINGER:Thank you. Do you have any comments to make at this time? MOOERS:No, we support the background- background report and recommendation. SPRINGER:Thank you. And you heard Mr. Torigoe€s discussion earlier about nd what occurred on December 2, and the fact that we have five Commissioners before us today, and you understand the options? MOOERS:Yes, we do. SPRINGER:Thank you. Commissioners, do you have any questions for the applicant or the applicant€s representative at this time? Seeing none, I€d like to- oh I€m sorry. Commissioner Siracusa. SIRACURA:Thank you. It appears that now that the issue of the sewer- approved sewer system has been dealt with by a revised condition number 4 that the sticking point may very well be the condition of the driveway. And I€m wondering if the applicant would be voluntarily willing to pave that driveway to eliminate that concern. Becauserightnowwehavefiveandfiveisaquorum;andifeven1personsaysnothen the whole thing fails. So, I€m wondering if the applicant would be willing voluntarily to remove that sticking point. MOOERS:Madam Chair, should I- would you like me to give my statement now or do you want me to wait until after the public testifier? SPRINGER:Mr. Mooers- and actually I€m sorry I did not, although I, you did raise your right hand, I didn€t ask for your name and address before you began to testify. MOOERS:My name is Greg Mooers. My address is Box 1101 in Kamuela, 96743. SPRINGER:Thank you, will the applicant be testifying this morning? MOOERS:He€s available for- to answer questions, Mr. Holmes and his wife are here with me today. SPRINGER:Thank you. If you could respond to the Commissioner€s question please. MOOERS:Yes, I, I think- well, just historically with the time that the- I€d like to develop the answer a little bit so it makes more sense but-. Mr. Holmes has been building this house for a number of years; and his wife is unable to climb stairs anymore. And so even though he had built the house with an SMA exemption because it is a single- family dwelling, it is zoned resort. So, Mr. Holmes options were to use the property as a vacation rental, as one large house, and have large groups stay there. Or, he sought to under the resort zoning to create a triplex so that he and his wife could live downstairs and then they could rent out the next two stories. Initially, the staff had advised Mr. Holmes that he could probably get what€s called an SMA minor permit because the cost of the improvements to add the two kitchens is less than $125,000; and, therefore, it would be an administrative permit handled by the Department. The Director made a determination that since the house was built with an SMA exemption as a single-family dwelling that the cost should not be just the kitchens, it should be the cost of the entire dwelling. And, by making that determination it threw it into the arena of an SMA use permit, or a major permit; and that€s why we€re here. The Director did recommend approval of that permit. When we filed the permit I was contacted by Mrs. Kjos who was concerned obviously about the condition of the driveway. I talked with Mr. Holmes at that time and said that Mr. Holmes would be willing to pay for his fair share of all of the-, I believe there€s five homes that use that, five properties-, four properties they use that he would pay his share of the four to make improvements and to maintain it. And at that time Mrs. Kjos said that she would come up with a proposal on how that might be done and that proposal has not been forthcoming. But, yeah, Mr. Holmes is more than willing to pay his fair share. I think it€s unreasonable to ask Mr. Holmes, though, to pave the easement that serves all these other lots when it is in disrepair. I think one of the things that we have to ask in response to Mr. Graham€s questions about it is that typically roadwayimprovementsareappliedatthetimeofachangeofzone.Thispropertyis zoned resort already; and so if he€s unsuccessful with this, in all likelihood what will happen is that the house will become a vacation rental house, and it will operate under that scenario. Because those are his only options because he and his wife are not able to use the upper two floors and would not be reasonable for them to just live downstairs and leave the upper two floors abandoned. So that would probably be their option. So the question is, what€s reasonable to require? Mr. Holmes is quite willing to pay his fair share to fix that roadway to improve the roadway that services all the lots. But he€s not willing to pave the roadway for everybody else you know and care, take the full financial burden himself. Does that answer the question, Madam Chair? SPRINGER:If Commissioner Siracusa is satisfied with the answer? SIRACUSA:Yes. SPRINGER:Thank you. Other members of the Commission, questions for the applicant€s representative? At this time then I€d like to invite Ellen Kjos to come to the table. Thank you, Ms. Kjos. If you could please state your name, your resident address and proceed with your testimony. KJOS:My name is Ellen Kjos. I live at 78-6701A; however, I own property at the 78-6703B address, which is adjacent to Mr. Holmes property. A, here again I-my complaint is that we€re polluting Kahaluu Beach Park, everytime it rains. I€ve already supplied pictures. Mr. Holmes has owned his property before I owned mine. To my knowledge and to my- in the time that I have lived here, I have never ever seen him do any improvement to his parking area or his- the incline that goes up to his parking area where all of this problem begins. It comes down because it€s rock under there. It comes down like it€s on a pavement, and it creates a river that has even washed out the cement apron that goes up to our driveway or up to our carport. And it- this last rain on Sunday it filled the neighbors basement with the rock that€s in there, continued on down, and on on to the road. After it hits Alii Drive you know where it€s going, it€s only one place to go. Alii Drive is black topped and so is the approach to the park; and it goes directly into the ocean and pollutes the park. My other concern is, you know, he said he€d turn it into a vacation rental. Personally I prefer him to turn it into a vacation rental. The reason I don€t live in my own house is because our neighborhood is conducive to people that you don€t want having for neighbors to rent. I mean party, party, party, because you€re right where the surfers want to be. I prefer vacation rentals, they€re only there for a week, you know, they-you don€t have to put up with them except for one week. But also his septic tank, and this was testimony given on the October meeting, his septic tank is only approved for two-family dwellings. But yeah, my concern is the pollution. That, and the fact that I€m the only one that ever fixes the driveway, but that has nothing to do with the permit. SPRINGER:Thank you, Ms. Kjos. Members, do you have any questions for the testifier?CommissionerSiracusa. SIRACUSA:Mr.Mooersindicatedthatatthelastmeetingyouhadsaidthatyou would talk to the other property owners who used that same driveway. KJOS:That€s not true. I never said that, if you check your minutes. SIRACUSA:And about dividing share of improvements. Did I hear you wrong? KJOS:I never said that. MOOERS:Yes. SIRACUSA:I heard you wrong. All right. MOOERS:My statement was when I spoke to her on the phone and told her that Mr. Holmes was willing to pay his fair share and she-, I suggested that she come up with a proposal on how that could be done. But that was not at the last meeting and she didn€t testify to that. SIRACUSA:All right, that€s my question then, have you come up with a proposal? KJOS:I have contacted several people who do black top concrete, whatever. They don€t even come out to give an estimate. The minute you say you need an estimate they won€t waste their time, because of all the new construction that€s going on, you can€t get anybody to come out. I even called people from Hilo because I figured there wasn€t a building boom over there and, specifically, a Loeffler from Hilo; and I€ve never heard back from him either. I called- I call two, three times a month, nobody ever shows up. You know, you can€t force them to come and they can€t give you a price without coming and looking. SPRINGER:Thank you. Commissioners, any other questions for the testifier? I have a question for the Deputy Director. With regard to this testimony and the reference to the septic tank issue, I€m wondering if the septic tank meets the requirements for this action? DARROW:When we spoke with Department of Health, the representative said that they did not have a record of there being a septic system that was approved or finaled. We had placed a condition at the last meeting that if this was approved that it would require them to install a septic system with a leech field. At first, the condition stated that it would connect with the County sewer system, or to get an approved septic system. But at this point they€re just-, we€ve changed that. Instead of having it hook up toaCountysewersystemwerequestedthatbefore-,thatthecertificateofoccupancy would be approved only upon compliance of an approved septic system with the Department of Health, or in connection with an approved sewer system. So that is being addressed in the conditions at this time. SPRINGER:Thank you, Mr. Darrow. Mr. Mooers. MOOERS:Uh, yeah, I just wanted to point out that there was some question from the Department of Health. I had conversations with them, they couldn€t find permits. Mr. Holmes has photographic evidence of the septic system being installed; and should the permit be granted or even if its not granted, Mr. Holmes will be working with the Department of Health to make sure that the septic system meets all Department of Health standards so that it will need to be- that issue would need to be resolved. And we do have drawings and we do have photographs showing the installation. Apparently the title of the person doing the work at the time is different than Mr. Holmes, and there€s some confusion in their files, but we do have the photographic evidence here. And I don€t know if the Commissioners are interested in getting into the septic system issue or willing to accept the fact that it must meet with the Department of Health standards if that€s adequate. SPRINGER:That€s how the condition reads, that compliance, the certificate of occupancy will be approved only upon compliance. Is there anything further on this? Commissioner Siracusa. SIRACUSA:I just was wondering if Mr. Holmes and his wife have already moved on to the first floor. MOOERS:Could you repeat the question, please? SIRACUSA:Well, since Mrs. Holmes is, is, has difficulty in climbing stairs I was wondering if he and his wife have already moved onto the first floor, which would leave the other two floors unoccupied. HOLMES:I€m Steve Holmes and I own the property. I live at 78-. SPRINGER:Mr. Holmes. HOLMES:6701B as in Baker, 78-6701B. SPRINGER:We need to swear you in, sir. You need to give us your name and your residential address for the record before you testify. HOLMES:I see. SteveHolmes. Address is 78-6701B, as in Baker, and Alii Drive. I live just across and east of Ellen,where she lives. SPRINGER:Thank you, sir. Now you may proceed to answer, thank you. HOLMES:Yes, we-, my wife hasn€t been up above the first floor for three years;andsowe€restayingdownonthebottomfloor.IfImightcommentontheroad. The road has been there for I don€t know how long years. There€s an old church on the south side of the property. And, when we fixed the access into this lot it was just opened up and laid out on the grade to get up to house level. And it isn€t- the garage is about the same level as Ellen€s; and then you go up a little higher and you get to the back of the house. We had a lot of rain before Ellen came. We were building the house but the rock that is washing down the road and onto Alii Drive, there€s a lot of this little buckshot rock that€s been hauled in to level, but it almost floats. And it isn€t our rock, we didn€t put the rock down; and I have gone down to the highway on Alii many times and put stuff in some of the holes that were there. But, on the traffic, we have very little traffic up to our house where the bed and breakfast- where Ellen here, I don€t know whether it€s a bed and breakfast, or holiday rental, or what it is, has ten times or more traffic than we have. They have five or six cars up there; and we have two, and one usually isn€t running in the garage. To say I haven€t done anything, I have, I have done a lot. But a lot of it was prior to when Ellen had come, and there wasn€t near the traffic. So that has a big bearing on the material that€s washing into Alii Drive, has been hauled in or at least I€d say 95% or better is- that rock almost floats. And when you get a heavy rain which we have there. it has to go someplace. And as far as the septic system I had the septic system approved, there was an inspector out there when we did the work, I€ve got pictures, you€re welcome to see them; and then I, I didn€t know the fella that did the work, his name is Bill Devaney, didn€t turn the completed records into the Department of Health. I called the Department of Health and I didn€t know this till just while back because I knew everything was to specifications, and it would handle five bedrooms, we had four. And so, I called an Engineer and he said he would be glad to come out and, to check it, and if it meets with the approval there would be no problem with the septic. SPRINGER:Thank you, sir. Mr. Takemoto. TAKEMOTO:Going back to the question of the driveway improvements. From the testifier it seems that the source of sediment comes from your lot, which is the furthest inland. Is that not what you said? KJOS:Not the sediment, the water. The rush of water comes down. TAKEMOTO:Well, I don€t think. KJOS:Not the sediment, it€s the rush of water. TAKEMOTO:Well, if the water, the water would bring sediment; but I don€t think there€s much you can do about water coming down. Is there, is there some way to alleviate the runoff? MOOERS:Can I make one point about the water? I think the testifier in her previoustestimonyatthelasthearing,pointedoutthatthewateractuallystartedabove Mr. Holmes€ property. And my understanding of the rules is that, as far as drainage is that you can€t increase the velocity or the volume of flow across the property and Mr. Holmes is not. The water naturally flows from above Mr. Holmes€ property down this roadway, so he is not generating the flow of water. TAKEMOTO:Well, the point I was going to get to if it was sediment, is the parking lot and driveway within the property paved or not? HOLMES:Yes. When, if we get the approval, we will put some concrete up into our driveway. TAKEMOTO:So, that was the question, you know. There€s talk about improving the whole right-of-way. I mean it seems like he€s improving within, everything within his lot which is, you know, as much as one person should fairly be burdened to do. So from his standpoint it seems that you are trying to mitigate whatever sediment problem may be flowing or could flow from your lot if you do pave for- control anyway the exposed areas within your lot. So, you confirmed that everything is or will be paved, yeah, your driveway and parking lot? HOLMES:Yes. The big part now, Ellen has gone out beyond her area, and they pulled a lot of rock in there, well, the water comes down in hers and brings that rock on down. It isn€t the gravel, right, I don€t think it€s up in mine or it never did bother-. SPRINGER:Thank you. Mr. Takemoto, any further questions? Commissioners, any further questions? At this juncture we have a decision to make. Mr. Torigoe, could you repeat for us what our options are at this time? Please. TORIGOE:Thank you. You need to take action by five votes to either approve the application, deny the application or to defer action. SPRINGER:And at this time I€d like to ask the applicant€s representative if they would like to request a deferral at this time or-? MOOERS:Can I ask Mr. Torigoe a question? SPRINGER:Surely. MOOERS:Can the Commission vote to approveordeny, and at that point then decide if they wanted to defer for further consideration? TORIGOE:I don€t see why not. MOOERS:We would prefer that. Mr. Holmes has been undergoing treatmentsonthemainlandanditwasaspecialefforttobeheretoday;andIthinkin fairness to him I think he€d like to try to get this resolved. And in fairness to the Commission who has heard this, you know, a number of times, I think we, we€d like to see the issue resolved. SPRINGER:Okay, thank you, Mr. Mooers. Ms. Kjos, at this time you can step back from the table. Thank you for your testimony. KJOS:I would like to ask if when the driveway is put in, because it is such an incline- when he paves his incline, because it is such- such an incline it gets really moving down there, if there were diagonal bumps that would, you know, make the water not go right straight down. What it does now, it comes right straight down and beside, it just digs a hole, just digs a hole, this deep, every time it rains, just a river. If there were bumps that would slow that water down when it€s coming down, it wouldn€t do nearly the erosion. SPRINGER:Thank you for that testimony, Ms. Kjos. It is a part of the record. And as a courtesy either Jeff Darrow or Roy Takemoto can you respond to the testifier? DARROW:Yes. SPRINGER:Commissioners, may I have a motion then? SMITH:Madam Chair. SPRINGER:Commissioner Smith. SMITH:I just want to say I€m not prepared to vote in the affirmative without a site visit perhaps. SPRINGER:Thank you. So members we have, the situation before us is we need unanimity on any course of action that we take today in order for there to be a decision made. The Commissioners have heard Commissioner Smith€s comments, and nd that€s consistent with a vote that was made at the December 2 meeting. Mr. Torigoe, do you have any comment? TORIGOE:I just want to clarify one more thing, that is that if you are unable to take any of those three actions an approval, a denial, or a deferral then under the rule the application is considered denied at this point. SPRINGER:Commissioner Smith, would you, you have the three options before us. You will not vote in the affirmative for this application if there is not a site visit, is that correct? SMITH:That€s correct. SPRINGER:Mr.Mooers,doyouhaveanycommentsatthistime? MOOERS:IthinkifMr.Smithwouldlikeasitevisitwehavenoproblem with that. SPRINGER:Thank you. Commissioners, then we may defer this matter until there is a site visit. Mr. Torigoe, we- it€s clear we don€t have the unanimity required either to approve or deny this application. Should we see if we have the votes for a site visit? TORIGOE:That is an option and that should be coupled with a motion to defer for that purpose. SPRINGER:Thank you. Commissioners, if we understand the options before us, is anyone prepared to make a motion? Commissioner Graham? GRAHAM:Commissioner Springer since we€re here discussing the merits of this thing also even though we may not take an action today because of that, I€d like to just outline for the other Commissioners what my concerns are about the sewage side of the issue, just so that its clear. Could I take that opportunity for just a minute? SPRINGER:Please do so. GRAHAM:Since I€ve been on the Commission I have tried to do a good bit of research and exploring myself into sewage kind issues. And my, you know, my concern here as far as the SMA permit which I expressed at the first hearing we had was any kind of nutrient flow into the ocean causing algae problems, deterioration of the ocean, this being in especially sensitive area next to Kahaluu Beach Park. There is a stretch about 3/4 mile between the end of the Keauhou sewer system and the ending pick-up of the County sewer system. So, to me, what we do here also has a real precedent issue to it, like how do we want to deal with applications in that area where people cannot connect to the sewer system. If one connects to the sewer system, essentially, as far as I understand, your sewage is out of there, so we have no real problem. On, the other alternatives are if you have like a cesspool, obviously, whatever you got going down is going to work its way one way or the other to the ocean, so that€s not good. In between the sewer system and the cesspool, Mr. Imming€s situation, which is a later item today where he has a 14- unit condo project, there you do an individual wastewater treatment system, which is certainly more costly than a septic system. When I talked to Department of Health people and I tried to get rough figures from them on what kind of clean-up you get from these different kinds of systems, basically from talking to Hilo personnel, rough rule of thumb like an individual treatment system with its dispersal field and all will give roughly a 90% cleanup of the nutrients and all. And that they tell me that a septic tank system gives roughly a 60 to 80% cleanup, and that varies on a number of things. One thing that they say is the key thing that varies on is the- sort of the leach field, what€s the quality of leach field. If you have a really good deepdirtleachfieldyou€regoingtogetthebestendofthatcleanup.Ifyoudon€thavea good dirt leach field you€re going to be more towards the lower end. And here, you know, as we heard from Ms. Kjos and all, where she talks about, you know, water coming down this rock so it€s just going to run along, I have to feel like it€s probably not a particularly good location for a leach field. I also asked about Puako, you know, what goes on in Puako since they€ve built all these new houses. I know Puako used to have cesspools. And what I was told by Department of Health, and Mr. Mooers may well know Puako better than me, I was told that the newer houses down at Puako even though they€re single family residences are being required to put in individual wastewater treatment systems because of the sensitivity to the reef which is so close there. So to me, sort of summarizing, the fact that Mr. Mooers brought last time to the meeting when I wasn€t here word from the Bishop Estate that it was not feasible to connect to the- to the sewer system, that€s very understandable; and that alternative appears to be off the table in any reasonable way. But, again, I€m looking to a precedent and what are we going to do in this stretch. Are we going to allow septic systems and allow expansion of use in this area where the Department of Health will approve a septic system that it€s okay with us, bearing in mind that Department of Health€s primary responsibility is human health not nutrient flow to the ocean? So we don€t find the Department of Health coming and testifying about what the quality of a near shore marine environment will be based on these systems. So, I€m still stuck in a little quandary where I€m reluctant to say a septic system is okay because I know there€s going to be more leaching than a individual wastewater treatment system. And, I€m sure that if the applicant was putting up a 14-unit condo where he could afford it, you know, he would probably go to an individual treatment system, and it€s probably very difficult for him to afford it in this particular situation. But there is some negative impacts towards the ocean from this and any other developments that may come along in this 3/4-mile stretch in the future, so that€s what my concern is. And I just wanted to make that apparent to Mr. Mooers and also to the other Commissioners that it€s a precedent issue as well as the specifics of this issue being so close to Kahaluu. Thank you. SPRINGER:You€re welcome. Thank you, Commissioner Graham. Mr. Mooers. MOOERS:Just to respond briefly toMr. Graham€s concerns. I obviously understand your concerns, which you expressed at the first hearing. First, the septic system and the leach field is on the other side of the road, so it€s not part ofthe runoff area. Secondly is that the Department of Health probably will require an individual wastewater treatment system here. In fact the terminology individual wastewater treatment system is more of a broad category that does include septic systems. I think the enhanced septic systems with digesters and other anaerobic- anaerobic units to it is probably going to be the requirement. If it were, if it were a single family dwelling a septic system would be allowed. But my understanding, Department of Health rules is if it becomes a multi-family, if it becomes 3-units then the treatment system will have to meetahigherstandard.Okay.AndthenIwouldalsopointoutthattheotherpeoplein the area have cesspools. So whether Mr. Holmes has a single family dwelling and the permit is denied he would have a septic system with a leach field; if he has a 3-unit then he would probably, according to Department of Health rules, have a higher standard of septic system required. SPRINGER:I have a question with regard to Mr. Mooers€ comments there. The last sentence then or the last part of the sentence, that is Condition 4, is individual treatment system what€s referred to with the underscored and approved sewer system? DARROW:Yes. SPRINGER:Thank you. And that was a yes‚ from Mr. Darrow. Commissioners, it€s- is there any further discussion on the matter? If there€s no further discussion, it is time to entertain a motion. Is there a motion? Commissioner Graham. GRAHAM:I will move that we defer for a site visit so Commissioner Smith and the rest of us can see first hand the situation. SIRACUSA:Second. SPRINGER:Thank you. It has been moved by Commissioner Graham and seconded by Commissioner Siracusa that we defer this item to accomplish further discussion and also a site visit. Are- is there any discussion? Mr. Torigoe. TORIGOE:Thank you, Madam Chairman. I think one more wrinkle on that is if we defer and go for a site visit you€re effectively reopening the hearing portion. So you know, that would basically be reopening the hearing and that would, I think, kick back the deadline again. So when you finish your site visit and any other evidences you want to take, then you would close the hearing again; and then that would start the clock running once more. SPRINGER:Okay, thank you, Mr. Torigoe. I€d ask staff at this time if we can put a date on the site visit. Would that be for the next Kona meeting? th DARROW:Yes, it would. That would be February 18 here in Kona. SPRINGER:Okay. With regard to Mr. Lawrence€s travel circumstances, Mr. Mooers, is that acceptable? TAKEMOTO:Holmes. SPRINGER:Holmes, sorry. MOOERS:Mr. Holmes said he would, he would be able to be available at that meeting. SPRINGER:Okay, thank you, Commissioners. We have a motion on the floor. Is there any further discussion on it? Mr. Darrow. DARROW:Thank you, Madam Chair. Commissioner Graham? GRAHAM:Aye. DARROW:Commissioner Siracusa? SIRACUSA:Aye. DARROW:Commissioner McCall? MCCALL:Aye. DARROW:CommissionerSmith? SMITH:Aye. DARROW:And,MadamChair? SPRINGER:Yes. DARROW:Themotionpassesfivetozero. SPRINGER:Thankyou,Mr.&Mrs.Lawrence.Thankyou,Mr.Mooers. MOOERS:Holmes. SPRINGER:Thank you, Commissioners. Holmes, Holmes. Thank you, Commissioners. The discussion ended at 10:49 am. Respectfully submitted, Lynette Sanemitsu, West Hawaii Secretary