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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2007-03-16 THUSSEY PLANNING COMMISSION COUNTY OF HAWAII HEARING TRANSCRIPT March 16, 2007 A regularly advertised hearing on the application of was called ELWIN F. HUSSEY (REZ 655) to order at 9:12 a.m. at the King Kamehameha's Kona Beach Hotel, 75-5660 Palani Road, Kailua-Kona, Hawaii, with Chairman William Graham presiding. PRESENT:C. Kimo AlamedaABSENT & EXCUSED:Andrew Iwashita Takashi Domingo William Graham Alvin Rho ReneSiracusa Rodney Watanabe Rell Woodward Ivan Torigoe, Deputy Corporation Counsel Christopher Yuen, Planning Director Norman Hayashi, Planning Program Manager Jeff Darrow, Staff Planner And approximately 9 people from the public in attendance. APPLICANT: ELWIN F. HUSSEY (REZ 655) Amendment to Condition C (time extension to secure final subdivision approval) of Change of Zone Ordinance No. 02-21, which rezoned 28.832 acres of land from an Agricultural 20-acre (A- 20a) to an Agricultural 3-acre (A-3a) district. The property is located along the southeast side of Ala Kahua Drive, approximately ž mile mauka of the Ala Kahua Drive ‚ Akoni Pule Highway intersection,KohalaEstatesSubdivision,Kahua,NorthKohala,Hawaii,TMK:5-9-7:7. GRAHAM:ThefirstitemontheagendaisanamendmenttoConditionCof Change of Zone Ordinance No. 02-21. The applicant is Elwin Hussey. This Change of Zone Ordinancerezoned28acresoflandfromAg-20toAg-3.Thepropertyislocatedalongthe southeast side of Ala Kahua Drive, approximately ž mile mauka of the Akoni Pule Highway intersectionwithAlaKahuaDrive,andthatsinKohalaEstatesSubdivisionnearKawaihae.Mr. Darrow, when you are ready. DARROW:Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good Morning, members of the PlanningCommission.IfIcandirectyourattentiontothelocationmap,theareaofthis application is within the North Kohala District of Hawaii, more specifically we are looking at the KohalaEstatesandKohalaRanchsubdivisionarea.Lookingatthebottomofthemaprunningin a north-south direction we have the Akoni Pule Highway. The red line signifies the Special ManagementArealine;thisapplicationisnotlocatedwithintheSMAarea.Accesstothe property, which is identified by the small red dot, is from Ala Kahua Drive, which is running in a 1EXHIBIT A mauka-makai direction ‚ Ala Kahua Drive. The applicant has submitted a final plat map, which were using as a site plan for the presentation. The applicant in this case Elwin F. Hussey has previously submitted a change of zone application, which was approved in 1990. Change of Zone Ordinance 90-008 was approved on February 13, 1990, which changed the zoning from Agricultural 20 Acres to Agricultural 3 Acres for approximately 28 acres. The final plat map shows the proposed layout for this subdivision, which is an 8-lot subdivision, each lot being approximately 3 acres in size. The applicant has previously submitted a time extension request for Condition C, which requires completion of final subdivision approval. This is the third request to the Commission and the Council. On February 12, 2002, Change of Zone Ordinance 02-21 was approved by the County Council to grant a five-year time extension to secure final subdivision approval for the application. Again the applicant is coming before us requesting a five-year time extension for ConditionC.Thereasonfortherequestisthatthewaterlinethattheapplicanthasbeen installing has had several deficiencies, which has caused delays in receiving final subdivision approval. Additionally the applicant states that they had received considerable damage on the property from recent heavy rains that occurred in the area. The applicant has brought some maps, and will be addressing those issues as she comes up. There is a condition Id like to bring to your attention. Condition L, the Planning Director has added an affordable housing condition that will now be effective for this particular rezoning. The Housing Code has been changed, which now triggers when you have a change of zone ordinance for Agricultural lots under 5 acres. Being that this is an Agricultural 3-acre request, the Planning Director has added this particular Condition within the application. The Planning Director is recommending that the Planning Commission send a favorable recommendation to the Hawaii County Council. Are there any questions? GRAHAM:Commissioners? No? Thank you, Jeff. DOMINGO:I have a question, Mr. Chairman. GRAHAM:Yes, Mr. Domingo. DOMINGO:With regard to Condition L, is that a standard condition that you impose on all Agricultural rezonings? GRAHAM:Mr. Yuen? YUEN:Yes. Since the Chapter 11 change in beginning of 2005, it calls for an affordable housing condition on all rezonings of less than 5 acre lot sizes, so it would apply to an Ag 3-acre request. And as a matter of Departmental policy, and I think its also consistent with the Ordinance, whenever we have a time extension for a project for rezoning, we bring in the current affordable housing condition; we attach this current affordable housing conditions to the rezoning. So for example, there may be an older rezoning that needs a time extension, never had an affordable housing condition, we put the affordable housing condition on it. And that is true in this case. When it was passed, it did not have an affordable housing condition, and we are putting a condition on the time extension. 2EXHIBIT A DOMINGO:In this particular issue, how much impact would it be on the developer of these lands ‚ all these parcels thatwere rezoned? YUEN:Well, I dont know the exact financial impact. It is an 8-lot subdivision. The basic requirement is that they earn one affordable housing credit for every 5 lots; its a 20-percent requirement. And you can earn a credit in several ways. You can sell lots; it means selling lots at a ‚ I think the affordable price is something like 100,000 ‚ but you have to earn double credits when you sell a lot rather than sell a house because you are not creating the house. So in a subdivision like this it is financially difficult to sell lots. The alternatives are they can develop housing off-site, they can also buy credits from developers who have produced more affordable housing than they need to produce and have ‚ what we call ‚ excess credits under the Ordinance. So there is this market mechanism. There are developers who have excess credits in the area. They are allowed to transfer within a 15-mile radius of their site. So those arebasicalternativesavailabletoadeveloper.Thealternativesarethesameforeverydeveloper. DOMINGO:IfImay.Youknowfor-.Icanlookatthisparticularincidence where perhaps it would be subdivided and sold to others, and that those others would probably come in and build homes. And, well, hes doing this for speculative purposes. But in a case where you have a bona fide farmer who has some fairly large parcel and decides to rezone it and subdivide into smaller parcels for farming purposes, and not with the intent of selling and to make a profit on that sale, but for the sake of perpetuating agriculture in the particular area, would that not be a bit too harsh to be demanding of them to come up with further additional cash, so that they can still maintain the farming endeavor in that particular area? YUEN:Well, first question is how do you know what they are going to do. Second is that there is the ability to build a house with the property; its not strictly being subdivided as simply a farming lot, you know, you can put a house on it. So the question is what is a line to be drawn between a subdivision that looks like its primarily agricultural and should not contribute toward affordable housing, and the decision was basically at this sub 5-acre. We could look at a lot of 3-acre subdivisions, and youre going to see ‚ particularly the ones done in the last 20 years or so ‚ primarily residential uses rather than primarily agricultural uses. And whether you want to measure by the value of the property or the value of the uses being put on it, I stand by the statement. DOMINGO:You know, I can appreciate this condition. And in view of the fact that many Agricultural lands are being developed for the sake of just building homes and not going into agriculture. And this perhaps would curtail some of those applicants and address the concern. But my primary concern is that our ability to maintain those Agricultural lands in agriculture. Thats my concern. I just needed to say that because in the event in the future if anything like this would come up, then I will again bring it up, and that would indicate my concern. Thank you. GRAHAM:Thank you, Commissioner Domingo. Commissioner Siracusa? SIRACUSA:Yes. A question for Jeff. The Change of Zone Ordinance was approved in 1990. Since that time, they have come in three times for extensions: A one-year, a 3EXHIBIT A three-year and a five-year extension. So theyve already had nine years worth of extensions. Im wondering, Jeff. Did any previous extension approval state that that was to be the last extension? DARROW:No. There was no such statement made. SIRACUSA:So that was left open-ended, which is why theyve been able to keep coming in for extensions. Is that correct? DARROW:Correct. SIRACUSA:Okay. Thank you. GRAHAM:Commissioner Siracusa, I think that thegeneral parameter is that on the Change of Zone the Director can renew it himself one time only, and then after that they havetokeepcomingbacktotheCommission.AndIthinkthatswhatwearedealingwithhere. Any other questions for Mr. Darrow? Will the applicant or applicants representative please come forward? You may be seated. Would you raise your right hand, please, so I can swear you in? Do you affirm or swear to tell the truth on this matter today thats before the Hawaii County Planning Commission? FISCHER:I do. GRAHAM:Thank you. And you can begin your presentation, first stating your name and your address, please. FISCHER:My name is Susan Wells Fischer. I live across the street from this project, to the left if you look at these maps. My address is P. O. Box 44417, Kawaihae. I purchased this property in 1976, across the street while I worked for the Hussey family in Puako. He was fascinated with why I would buy land in such a terrible place because it had no water and hardly any homes, and so he bought across the street in 77. And since that time my passion has been to keep overhead utilities off of this hill. Im not sure that you can see this, but you can pass it around. This is one of the most prominent hills in the area ‚ more prominent than probably much of what there is within several miles. You can see this hill probably all the way from Kona with a telescope. My dread was always that there will be poles marching over the top of this hill. So thats how I first got involved, and we started work on this property about 78. This is the antithesis of a speculative project. To answer the question why its taking so long, Id have to tell you a few things about what were doing. And I think youll see that we could have done this project a lot quicker, if we had done it in a typical fashion. I think I can explain a lot of it right from here. If you look at the top map, youll see that we have ‚ if you can see the elevation lines ‚ we have dramatic topography. In fact, this was one of the least expensive properties in Kohala Estates when it was first on the market in the early 70s, because farmers from Waimea were buying the properties in Kohala Estates and this one was probably one that was least farmable. But now its got the dramatic view, so its in demand. To develop a road on this property, the typical fashion in Kohala Estates, which ‚ Estates is kind of a misnomer; its kind of a 70s term, but there is a lot of more luxury homes in the surrounding areas. Kohala Estates is an old subdivision with a lot of overhead utilities coming up the main road and spur lines to the sides. 4EXHIBIT A If you look at the middle map, you can see the red lines are -. Well, I had never done this before, but yesterday I tried to envision what this would be like with poles. Typical for Kohala Estates is to put ‚ in non-Golden Rule fashion ‚ is to put the poles behind you, so you cant see them but your neighbors behind you can. So I tried to imagine if I were to put in poles, I came up with three-dozen poles. If you follow the orange lines or red lines, and you see the dots; each dot is a pole. Another thing we did through the years: On the back on the right side of the map is the border with the Hawaiian Homes. It was an easement for roadway and utility purposes. It took us over three years to get the documents right to get all the current owners to sign the document that changed it in one word ‚ added the word, €underground. Now we can never have poles up that easement, which stretches up the side of most of Kohala Estates. That would restrict peoples view of Kawaihae Bay all the way to Kona, if the poles would have been able to go up that line. Themiddlemap:TheonlywayitsnottypicalofKohalaEstates‚ifyoucanseetheyellow,that was our original lot lines ‚ the only way its not typical is that its a curvy road; most Kohala Estates roads are straight. But we wanted to use a natural gulch crossing. You can see the big river on the left side of the picture. The original plan was for two culverts. We were concerned about debris getting stuck on the middle, so we wanted to span the gulch with one big arch. Also, the original layout with the yellow lines had some lots with hardly any access to their house sites. The big factor ‚ after watching a lot of the little subdivisions in Kohala Estates argue amongst their neighbors over the amenities that go to the end of the road ‚ I can think of no other project in our area where the end of the road has just as much advantages: Fire protection, extra hydrant, waterline all the way to the end of the road. We have a second cul de sac that has full fire truck turning capability. In 93, ninety-five percent of this lot was burnt. So fires are a big factor. So weve added an extra hydrant, and put in the turnaround at the end of the flag. That hydrant will serve the neighbors above and below as well. And weve also planned for the underground utilities to be within 200 feet as recommended by HELCO to reach all the house sites ‚ at least one house site on each lot. We are not looking for luxury homes here. This isnt a gated community. We do have Kona nightingale donkeys grazing it for fire prevention, but we have planned and we have the materials on-site for cattle guard. Well have no gate. We will have no restrictions for large homes; we want to encourage small homes. But we are trying to do things that are more in tune with what I read in the General Plan of keeping it scenic and open space. DOMINGO:Excuse me, Mr. Chairman. GRAHAM:Commissioner Domingo? DOMINGO:What was the specific question that you asked of the representative of the developer? GRAHAM:Generally when we have an applicant, the applicant makes a presentation to the Commission of the project. And I think shes just in the process of doing that. DOMINGO:Okay. Thank you. 5EXHIBIT A FISCHER:I can summarize by saying that the map on the bottom, you see the green areas ‚ this isnt a golf course ‚ these are sedimentation ponds that we are doing instead of drywells, because we feel that wed like to encourage growth and not waste the water going underneath the road into those drywell grates. So those are existing on the property. And if you are interested, I have color pictures of when they went in, and what they look like now is ‚ perhaps you can see this from where you are ‚ the green spots -. So we are desertus a lot of the time, so what we have are these green oasis-like spots where we are seeing natural growth. And they stay green all year around. And another notable thing is that terraces that you see on the bottom, instead of doing a big cut in the front of the hill ‚ youll see it in one of those photographs ‚ we did terraces. So it wouldnt look like a highway going through a hill. We have saved boulders, and made places where buildings have to be set back from boulders to save them. Weve made berms along the front to make a little privacy but not to restrict the view from the road, but it gave a little privacy to the front people. Weve saved every thornless keawe tree we have. We have made landscape easements around every hydrant and every piece of equipmentthatcomesabovetheground,sothatthingsliketransformersandmeterpedestalswill not be little ugly spots. I mean so many projects they may have underground utilities but then the meter pedestals are pretty unsightly. So weve gone to a lot of extra length, and this is exactly why its taking us so long. Now on the waterline: Why did the waterline fail? A year and half or two years ago was high market. And we had realtor pressure on us, quite frankly; speculative interest that pressured the Hussey family to pick an old friend where red flags all over the place not to hire this person, but old friend, and rush-rush, realtors pressuring, calling all the time. And our waterline was slapped in there. We had -. At that point out of frustration I was stepping back. The family was anxious to sell in reaction to all this realtor pressure. So the waterline went in improperly. The engineers came, and issued a stop work order ‚ their first in their career. And the waterline kept proceeding to be covered. All kinds of stories: We are going to do some kind of test; we have to cover just a little bit. It was basically a cover-up. I think what was hoped was that the waterline could quickly be covered, and then a slap on the wrist, a fine, and maybe a spot-dig two or three places, and then it would be passed. And I was told by the contractor that the realtor and the waterline people were tying to promote to, that they thought they could just tweak, fix a few places, and it would be fine and it would pass. The engineer insists that the only way to fix the waterline is to remove it totally. thth And since that time, on October 10 before the earthquake and October 16 the day after, we had excessive floods. In fact, you may have read in the paper an article called, €Kohala Sediment Mystery. The Department of Health, DLNR, the Clean Water people find that there is some mysterious thing happening within from like the industrial area in Kawaihae up about three miles; therere about seven gulches and there is this big sediment plume. But our gulch, Keanahalululu, was not mentioned as being a problem. And Im hopeful that things like these sedimentation ponds are reason why there wasnt more sediment from our project that went down. So we hope that youll give us your approval. I have one problem: The housing. I certainly could not myself ‚ my husband and I ‚ we would notqualifyforeventhebarelythemedianincomelevel,sowecancertainlyunderstandtheneed for affordable housing. But to put this housing on us at this point after the washout we had from theflood‚wecantevendriveinourroadnow.Althoughourbigarchbridge,thatweputin 6EXHIBIT A you see on the bottom left, there was no failure of the bridge. But before the bridge there was a big washout. You cant even drive in the project any more. With that and having to do the waterline over and then have this big surprise, I have had discussions with the Housing people. To do this in a couple of different ways, as was mentioned earlier, there are several ways you can satisfy the housing. To do it on site, it would mean a loss of somewhere in the neighborhood of 800,000 to over 1 million dollars worth of -, even at a lower market than it was a couple of years ago. To do it off site within 15 miles sounds easy, but there is not a lot in -. The range that I was told is 89,800 dollars is an affordable finished lot. Its pretty hard to find much like that within 15 miles. I am waiting for a callback from Kohala Surety Company. The Housing people recommended that we talk to someone about purchasing credits. I appeal to you for your help. The way you can aide in preserving places like this ‚ that I see the General Plan directly speaking to for open space and scenic quality ‚ and to preserve a hill like this is not to have poles. Because power poles is the easiest way to cut corners, because HELCO tells us that you can get one or two poles for free for each house, so the speculative interest that I spoke of earlier, iftheycomein,ifthepartnershipforexamplesellsouttosomeonewhowantstocutcorners,the easiest way to satisfy something like the housing requirement is going to be to put power poles in. So because thats my passion to not have power poles, I appeal to you to help us by allowing us to continue on without the housing requirement. Thank you. GRAHAM:Thank you, Ms. Wells Fischer. Commissioner Siracusa? SIRACUSA:Yes. I, too, have passion against power poles, and am supporting underground services and preserving viewplanes. So Im very impressed with what you are working on here and what youve been doing. Id like some clarification cause you said you were not going to be building great big houses and you werent going to putting upon the ridgeline, which is usually what great big houses like to do, and that you were going to be building smaller homes. So how does that conflict with -. Usually affordable houses are smaller houses; I dont see the conflict between one thing and the other. It seems to me like you are working in that direction anyway. Could you please explain that? FISCHER:Sure, thank you. We are not planning on building homes, but we are going to put covenants on to preserve things like the sedimentation pond areas and to be sure that there are no poles going in afterwards. We are not going to put any kind of covenants on that require certain minimum square footage. The smaller the better, is the way I look at it cause it has less visual impact on everyone. And we are trying to put the houses little tucked in places; weve already put the house sites in, and the house sites are all on the property already. And the point was not to stick houses on the top of that hill. In fact, there is a little building on that hill already, and you cant even see it in that picture and you cant see it when you are driving up Kohala Estates Road. That was always my goal to not have a monster mansion on the top of every hill. SIRACUSA:Redirect, please? GRAHAM:Commissioner Siracusa, follow-up? SIRACUSA:So you are not putting down the minimum building size in the covenants. Are you stating a maximum building size? Are you capping it? 7EXHIBIT A FISCHER:Havent considered that, but certainly open to it. In fact, most people that ask about these properties are neighbors right in the area that wantto downsize. They want to sell their present homes and build something smaller. SIRACUSA:Certainly thats a consideration when you get older and it gets harder and harder to clean a big house. Id like to ask the Director, if I may. Since they are talking about not building the homes themselves, which is selling the lot sites, and there is no minimum building size, how would that conflict with the affordable housing requirement ‚ if they are not building the homes themselves anyway? YUEN:We have a great deal of lot-only development on the island, you know. Very commonly whether its -. Uniformly an Agricultural lot will be sold without a home, and very often even a residential subdivision is sold without a home. So we have an affordable housing requirement that applies to those as well. You get a half a credit for the affordablelotversustheaffordablehomebecausethensomebodystillhastoputahomeonit. And frankly, yes, the market value of a 3-acre lot in this subdivision is going to be a lot of money. And I dont have a figure for you, but its a lot of money; and from the economic point of view, probably the least economic alternative for the land developers is to sell a 3-acre lot at the affordable lot price. Thats going to be the least economic alternative for them to fulfill the affordable housing requirement, but there are other alternatives including the purchase of credits from ‚ I dont believe Surety is going to be within the 15-mile radius; I can tell you that there are credits that accrued to Nansei for development in the Waikoloa area that I believe are within the 15-mile radius, and then also Parker Ranch has affordable housing credits. But the affordable housing policy does cover rezonings whether the developer sells lots only or sells houses. GRAHAM:Thank you, Mr. Yuen. Do we have any other questions for the applicants representative? WATANABE:Chair? GRAHAM:Commissioner Watanabe? WATANABE:Its not directed towards the applicant, but again Id like clarification from Mr. Yuen as far as how much impact, I mean, how many affordable credits would this project require. You had mentioned something about one in the beginning and she was mentioning its going to cost her between 800,000 to a million, which I guess thats based on selling ‚ the most expensive way ‚ selling all of the lots for 100,000 dollars, which is I think out of reason. YUEN:The project has to earn ‚ its an 8-lot subdivision ‚ has to earn two credits. Its rounded up to the nearest whole number. WATANABE:Two credits? YUEN:Two credits. 8EXHIBIT A WATANABE:Two full credits? YUEN:Yes. WATANABE:Its my understanding that the secondary market is running about 70,000 or so per credit. I dont know what it is right now, but my understanding -. Am I in a ballpark? YUEN:Ive heard the figure. I cant verify it. GRAHAM:Thank you. Commissioner Siracusa? SIRACUSA:Yes. I want to raise another question, and that has to do with the €substantial agricultural activity thats supposed to take place on these lots. And a proof of substantialagactivity‚accordingtothis,thelotispresentlybeinggrazed‚butthedefinitionof agricultural activity to be considered substantial is: One, if it provides a major source of income. And Im wondering if that is the case at this point. FISCHER:My understanding is that by dedicating your land to agriculture with the tax people, which we did for 20 years ‚ a number of years ago ‚ that that also fulfills. st And frankly Id have to also mention the cost of water. On May 1 the cost of our water is going up to $5.64 per 1,000, and the meter rate hasquadrupled on the small size meter. So Id have to say that with 7 to 10, maybe 20 at the most, inches of rainfall and water rates at that level, its hard to compare us to a regular commercial farming kind of area. Ive always looked at -. Because we had the big fire and weve formed a volunteer fire department, preventing fire I feel saves the County, saves the neighbors, and saves-; its one of the best things we can do in lieu of doing greenhouses or some kind of intensive agriculture. So Im hoping that the grazing donkeys is one way that we can contribute to ag use. There are very few, frankly, very few ag venturesonourhillside.Infact,thereisagrapefruitoperationinKohalaRanchandtheysayif the rates go up like they are supposed to starting in May, theyll even go out of business. So other than the botanic garden where they have two of their own wells, they areabout one of the only agricultural ventures on our hill of the kind that you would think of when you think of the wetter areas of the island. We are trying to do the best we can in near desert conditions. And also I have to mention the wind. Whenever there is a wind warning, you notice that they mention our area. So we have a lot to contend with to try and do commercial agriculture that you are used to in Hamakua or Puna. GRAHAM:Thank you. A question for Mr. Yuen. It seems like for us to want to counter the policy of the affordable housing would be a large step that might lead to a slippery slope in the future and all, but I was wondering about the rounding facet. Is that kind of like part of the policy how the rounding would take place, or is that more just sort of an administrative procedure? Im thinking like that maybe in small subdivisions where you are only talking a lot or two or something that the rounding could be discretionary. YUEN:Well, you have to make a decision how you ‚ because you do have this rounding issue. And generally the credits are earned in chunks. And it would be easier if you ‚ you know, youre buying a credit, but then just to buy 1.6 credits, for example. But the 9EXHIBIT A Ordinance says you round to the higher. Thats what it says. GRAHAM:Thank you. Any other questions? We dont have anybody signed up at this point to testify; but if there is anyone here that would like to testify on this agenda item, you can come forward right now and do that. If not, I will turn the meeting over to the Planning Commission members. You may stay there if youd like, but youd only give your testimony if we are specifically asking it. One comment from Mr. Yuen? YUEN:Yeah, I have a question for the applicant. When you talk about not having a house size covenant, it was my understanding that Kohala Estates as a whole has a 2,000-square foot minimum house size covenant. Is that correct? FISCHER:Kohala Estates has no covenants. Its only the little size subdivisions within Kohala Estates that put covenants on themselves. And most of them that Im awareofdontaddresshousesizetoomuch,andgenerallykindofmoreinthe,like,1,200-foot range. Maybe some go up to 2,000, but thats a minority of the whole area. YUEN:Okay. Thank you. GRAHAM:All right. Did you have a question, Mr. Woodward? WOODWARD:Well, I had a comment actually. I agree with some of the things that have been said, and I think in this particular case this affordable housing covenant is unduly burdensome, but Im not sure the easiest way around it. Now if we are talking about rounding, one of the things that you might consider is making seven lots instead of eight, and then you will only have to have one credit. FISCHER:Interesting question because we are only making seven lots that are 3 acres. The eighth lot is 5 acres. But the Housing people still consider it an 8-lot 3-acre subdivision, and they round up; they never round down. Although they did say they might -. I got the feeling from what they said that this is not really the kind of project that the rules were geared toward. And they sort of were talking like maybe one lot instead of two lots, but that was just a feeling in a casual conversation. They seem flexible and willing to consider different options. GRAHAM:Thank you. Mr. Yuen, when you said €round up, did that mean any fraction goes up to the next number or -? YUEN:No. Its at a break point. If it was 1.4, you would round down. GRAHAM:You would round down. YUEN:Yes. GRAHAM:All right. Thank you for your comment, Mr. Woodward. All right, we are ready for our action or further comments. Commissioner Watanabe? 10EXHIBIT A WATANABE:Im ready to make a motion then. Maybe we, during deliberation we can then discuss the round issue or this housing issue, if thats okay. So I move that a favorable recommendation be forwarded to the County Council for Change of Zone Ordinance No. 02-21, REZ 655, with the amendment to Condition C securing final subdivision approval inclusive of the new Condition L, which refers to the affordable housing credits. GRAHAM:Thank you. Do we have a second? DOMINGO:Second. GRAHAM:Seconded by Commissioner Domingo. Okay, we can now take any further discussion, if any Commissioners would like to put in. Commissioner Domingo? DOMINGO:Yes, Mr. Chairman. I just once again would like to reflect upon thehousingrequirement,towhichIamnottotallyagreeablewhenitsappliedtonotsomuchin this particular application but in applications where you have bona fide existence of farming taking place, and where you have an owner wishing to subdivide into smaller parcels so others can come in and carry on the same kind of endeavor in the surrounding parcels. Now having to pay and meet the requirements of housing provisions would somewhat burden those who would be buying and those who would be selling it, and therefore discouraging in any such kind of movement. And that essentially is my argument here. With regard to Kohala Estates or Kohala Ranch, I think we find that many people have gone into agricultural purpose; some of them bona fide and with sincerity, but others have gone into that in order to qualify for some kind of tax credit or whatever. And then I have a problem with that also. But if one would sell a lot in Kohala Ranch or Kohala Estates, as indicated, you can sell it for a substantial amount, and thereby meet the requirements of the housing condition. In this particular area they can, but not in every or any part of this island. GRAHAM:Thank you, Commissioner Domingo. Any other -. Commissioner Watanabe? WATANABE:I have a comment, though, I -. By the way, Id like to commend the applicant for your efforts here. I think the efforts are in the right direction. On the other hand, the applicant has also testified that because of the cost of water, because of the wind, because of the dry conditions, its extremely difficult to have an on-going agricultural concern. Thats said, it is unlikely ‚ irrespective of what she wants to see this subdivision develop into ‚ its unlikely that it will develop into any truly productive agricultural concern. And with that in mind, and also I believe that 70,000 figure that I mentioned is pretty accurate ‚ I couldnt say its right on the nose ‚ but I think its pretty accurate. Given that the Director has said that this subdivision in particular would involve two credits, then you are talking, say, 140,000 to 150,000 dollars thereabouts with one 3-acre lot going for several hundred thousand dollars. Its not that big of a stretch, I dont think. And I think the more difficult thing would be to make an exception here, and wonder where we are going to stop with the exceptions going forward, because we are going to have a lot more subdivisions coming up and pleading the same case and -. I pretty like to be more consistent in how we administer this, so that it doesnt give a feeling of favoritism one way or the other. 11EXHIBIT A GRAHAM:Thank you, Commissioner Watanabe. Commissioner Siracusa? SIRACUSA:For Mr. Torigoe. I take it that, since this is ‚ Item L in the Recommendations ‚ pursuant to Chapter 11, that we really dont have any choice in the matter. Is that accurate? Do we or do we not have latitude? Basically thats what I want to know to make any changes to Condition L, if we want to. GRAHAM:Hold on just a second while we have a little discussion. We also need to keep in mind that we are only making a recommendation to the County Council on this item. TORIGOE:Mr. Chairman? GRAHAM:Yes, Mr. Torigoe? TORIGOE:Just to clarify. It sounds like Commissioner Siracusa is basically askingthatiftheCommissionrequirescompliancewithChapter11atthispointforthis application, then can the Commission vary from the requirements of Chapter 11. Is that what you are asking, Ms. Siracusa? GRAHAM:Commissioner Siracusa? SIRACUSA:Im sorry I didnt catch all of that. TORIGOE:Okay. You are asking if the Commission has any choice or leeway in dealing with Chapter 11. And basically you were saying that assuming that the Commission does apply the current Chapter 11 requirements in this case, then it sounds like you are asking if the Commission has any authority to vary from the requirements of the current Chapter 11. SIRACUSA:Basically Im asking -. Are we required to go by Chapter 11 here? I mean its been put in. Is that a policy or is that law? GRAHAM:Mr. Torigoe? TORIGOE:I cant give you a real solid answer on that. I havent really looked at the details of Chapter 11 as to how it applies to applications for extensions of time like this. The policy of the Planning Department has been to apply it. So thats why the recommendation comes to you, I think, in the way it has. But now you can ask the Planning Director if hes got some other view on that. SIRACUSA:Mr. Director? YUEN:I think its consistent with Chapter 11. I wouldnt say its absolutely required to put it on a time extension, but we have been consistently doing this on time extensions for two to three years. 12EXHIBIT A SIRACUSA:Okay, so we do have some latitude there, but then there is the question of setting precedents that Commissioner Watanabe raised, and where you make a cutoff. Is that accurate? TORIGOE:Mr. Chairman? GRAHAM:Mr. Torigoe? TORIGOE:Bear in mind that if you would like to see some kind of authority put into that, then I suppose ideally the thing would be to inform the Council that the Commission does have concerns about applying current Chapter 11 requirements to time extensions. And that could be done even now on the record; before you take a vote, you all can put on record that this is the current policy, but there are concerns about the fairness and undue burdens that may be put upon the existing rezonings when they come in for extensions of conditions. SIRACUSA:Thankyou.Myconcernwasnotsomuchonthematterof extensions, but the fact of the size of the subdivision, you know, small lots subdivisions. Generally if somebody wanted to subdivide a piece of land even to two lots or four lots, that doesnt seem to be on the same level as a 200-parcel subdivision. And Im wondering if there is any way of separating out by definition, perhaps. GRAHAM:Mr. Yuen, could you speak to that? YUEN:There is no requirement for subdivisions of fewer than five lots. There is no affordable housing requirement. But this is the policy decision thats embodied to the Ordinance, but thats the cutoff. Thats when its debated and decided. It was ten at one time. Actually before February 2005 it was ten. But partially because we were going from a 10- percent basic requirement to a 20-percent requirement, we figured make the cutoff at five instead of at ten. But thats the role of having an Ordinance is to make the decision, rather than sit here at a Commission meeting and say, well, I feel good today, you know, its Christmas Eve, lets let it go, you know, we are in a bad mood, lets have five. The cutoff is five. SIRACUSA:Okay. Basically, thank you, that answers my question. There is a cutoff number. Okay. GRAHAM:Any other questions or thoughts from the Commissioners before we go to a vote? All right, we have the -. WOODWARD:I have just one comment. GRAHAM:Yes, Commissioner Woodward. WOODWARD:Basically its based on what Mr. Torigoe was just saying. Do we want to vote before we really know the answer to the question? That is the question of is this mandatory that we put this on to an application for an extension of time? And evidently we 13EXHIBIT A dont have that answer. It is policy of the Planning Department, but is that mandated by law or is that just a policy thats been adopted? So I bring that up for consideration. GRAHAM:Do you have anything further to add, Mr. Yuen, on that? YUEN:No. If I didnt make it clear, I think that its not strictly mandatory, but we have applied it consistently and the Council has applied it consistently to time extensions for roughly two to three years. I dont think its strictly mandated by the terms of Chapter 11. We are looking -. When you come in for a time extension, it is a discretionary point of review by the County as to whether the zoning should be extended. And in a case where we have a very important County policy to have affordable housing, and we are looking at a rezoning that has been done quite some time ago, we have been making this -. When we looked at the importance of doing this, we decided to make it a policy, and it has been adhered to. GRAHAM:Thankyou.Arewereadyforavote?Mr.Darrow,wehavethe motion for favorable recommendation made by Commissioner Watanabe and seconded by Commissioner Domingo. DARROW:Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Commissioner Watanabe? WATANABE:Aye. DARROW:Commissioner Domingo? DOMINGO:Aye. DARROW:Commissioner Alameda? ALAMEDA:Aye. DARROW:Commissioner Rho? RHO:Aye. DARROW:Commissioner Siracusa? SIRACUSA:Aye. DARROW:Commissioner Woodward? WOODWARD:Aye. DARROW:And Mr. Chairman? GRAHAM:Aye. DARROW:The motion passes, seven to zero. 14EXHIBIT A GRAHAM:Thank you. And we will inform you in writing of our decision. The discussion ended at 10:06 a.m. Respectfully submitted, Noriko Sauer West Hawaii Secretary 15EXHIBIT A