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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2022_09_20 Game Managements Advisory Commission Minutes Game Management Advisory Commission County of Hawai’i Minutes Meeting Date: September 20, 2022 Time: 2:00 pm to 4:00 pm Zoom Origination: 25 Aupuni Ctr., Suite 2603, Hilo HI, 96720 nd In-Person Site: West Hawai’i Civic Center, Bldg. C, 2 FL, Conf. Rm., 74-5044 Ane Keohokalole Hwy., Kailua-Kona HI 96740 1. CALL TO ORDER/ROLL CALL: The meeting was called to order at 2:00 pm. District 1 – Robert Duerr, present, via Zoom District 2 - Kean Umeda, excused District 3 – Rhon Leomana Turalde, (joined in after the roll-call, via Zoom) District 4 – Brian Ley – Present, via Zoom District 5 - Abraham Antonio, Present, via Zoom District 6 – Austin Griffey – Present, via Zoom District 7 - Vacant District 8 – Cortney Okumura – Present via Zoom District 9 - George Donev, absent Quorum Established STAFF: Sylvia Wan, Deputy Attorney, Corporation Counsel Pomai Bartolome, Executive Assistant to Mayor Roth Barett Otani, Executive Assistant to Mayor Roth Barbara Kossow, Administrative Specialist Mayor’s Kona Office 2. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: July 19, 2022, and August 16, 2022 Action: Motion made by Robert Duerr to approve July 19, 2022, and August 16, 2022, as circulated. Seconded by, Brian Ley. Motion carried unanimously by voice vote. 3. STATEMENTS FROM THE PUBLIC ON AGENDA ITEMS: Chair Abraham Antonio, welcomes anyone that may want to say something regarding an agenda item may do so anytime throughout the meeting. AA: At this time are there any statements from the public on the agenda items? (Seeing), no raised hands or anything – moving on… Ah, we get Hawaii County’s Corporation Sylvia Wan doing a presentation of Game Management Advisory Commission Role and Purposes Preliminary Rules Procedures. 1 SW: OK. I believe there needs to be a request for any comment regarding this particular presentation from the public. AA: I’m pretty sure the public \[unclear\] in the opening statements? TS: This is Tony Sylvester – I’d like to hear what’s going on with that. SW: It’s not about – it would you be providing testimony as to any remarks on the presentation. TS: How can I remark on a presentation I didn’t hear? SW: Well, maybe you have opinions about whether it should happen or not but that’s what – it should be provided - availability of the public to testify before every presentation or agenda item. That’s all that I was \[unclear\]. But I’ll move on to my presentation hearing that there are no other statements from the public. AA: Ah, Chair Abraham – District 5 – Sylvia wasn’t it in our agenda, in our meetings, that the public can speak at any time per Sunshine Laws? SW: Yes, it’s at any time… AA: And if it has been voted upon through prior Chairs and Commissions. SW: No, it’s for every agenda item. That’s… AA: So the public can actually speak when they choose, right? Or when I let them speak, right? SW: When you let them speak, yes… AA: Yes. SW: Not when you choose. Not when they choose. AA: Yeah, not when they choose… SW: Yes. So my comment was to you Chair – not to the general public as far as allowing for public testimony before this presentation that is all. But I moved on to the presentation… AA: Yes. 2 4. PRESENTATION: a. Hawai’i County Corporation Counsel Sylvia Wan presentation – Game Management Advisory Commission: Role & Purpose, Parliamentary Procedure. SW: While this presentation is for the Game Management Advisory Commission - this is regarding the role and purpose of the Game Management Advisory Commission as well as parliamentary procedure. The Game Management Advisory Commission was established or has been established by the Hawaii County Charter, Section 6-9.3. This particular charter states – portion of the charter states – there shall be a Game Management Advisory Commission consisting of nine members who shall be appointed by the Mayor and confirmed by Council. Each of the nine council districts shall be represented by a resident appointed from that district. The term of the member shall be as prescribed in Section 13-4. The Commission shall select its Chairperson from its voting members and five voting members shall constitute a quorum. Our current Game Management Advisory Commission does of the nine members there’s on per district. Our Chairperson is currently Abraham Antonio. Our Vice Chair is currently Brian Ley from District 5. From District 1 we have Robert Duerr, District 2 – Kean Umeda, District – 3, Rhon Leomana Turalde, District – 6, Austin Griffey, District – 7 is currently vacant, District – 8, is Cortney Okamura, and District 9 is George Donev. Five Commission members constitutes a quorum. And, um, I’m just going to ask Pomai can you institute \[unclear\] for everyone just because it’s a little distracting to having everybody elses’ \[unclear\]. Terms of appointment \[unclear\] the Hawaii County Charter 13-4, members serve a staggered five year terms, any vacancies shall be filled for the unexpired term – members are appointed by the Mayor and confirmed by the Council. They may be removed upon recommendation of the Mayor and approval by the Council. And a Chairperson shall be elected from the Commission membership annually. Next I’m going to move on to the discussion of the role and purpose of the Game Management Advisory Commission. This is directly from the Charter: For the benefit of the present and future generations the Game Management Advisory Commission shall advise County and State and Federal agencies on matters relating to preservation of subsistence hunting and fishing, as well as protecting traditional and cultural gathering rights. The Commission may also advise County, State and Federal agencies on any matter affecting the taking and conservation of aquatic life and wildlife including proposed rules and shall communicate its findings and recommendations to these agencies. The Commission shall promulgate recommendations that conserve and protect the natural and cultural sustainability of aquatic life and wildlife in the County. The Commission shall provide reports or legislative recommendations to the Council as necessary and at least quarterly. So just to kind of go over that again – the main purpose is for – this Commission shall advise the County on matters related to the preservation of subsistence hunting and fishing as well as protecting traditional and cultural gathering 3 rights. They may also advise the County of taking and conservation of aquatic life and wildlife, including proposed rules and shall communicate its findings and recommendations to the agencies. So how exactly does the Commission advise? The Commission, according to the Charter, shall promulgate recommendations that can serve and protect natural and cultural sustainability of aquatic and wildlife in the County and the Commission shall provide reports or legislative recommendations to the Council as necessary but at least quarterly. So what is within the role of the Commission? Specifically, what is within the role of the Commission is to gather information, to investigate issues related to the preservation of subsistence hunting and fishing, related to issues protecting traditional and cultural gathering rights, and related to the conservation of aquatic life and wildlife. Upon gathering information and investigating related issues, the Commission can form recommendations based on that information and provide those recommendations by advising the County, State and Federal agencies in regards to proposed rules and proposed policy that the County, State and Federal agencies may be considering. They can also provide reports to the County Council, which they should be doing at least quarterly. They should also be providing legislative recommendations to County Council as necessary. This is specifically not within the realm of the Commission – the Commission is not in charge of making laws or specifically making policies and the Commission does not specifically make rules for other County, State, or Federal agencies, nor does the Commission lobby legislators for the adoption of a particular law. What the Commission does is, I’m sorry, I’ve got to go back – is advising these policymakers wanted to make sure that that was clarified because I know there were some misconceptions \[unclear\]. The top responsibility for the Commission is to provide reports and legislative recommendations to the County Council. With the well informed advice our County can continue its preservation efforts to ensure the availability of natural resources for subsistence hunting, fishing and traditional gathering rights for present and future generations to come. So that was the role and purpose of GMAC. Next – this is a little bit on parliamentary procedure as to why we operate our meetings in the way that we do. Specifically, this is a look at Robert’s Rules of Order. Robert’s Rules of Order governs the procedures for board meetings as well as commission meetings. Generally, there’s going to be a main motion which has to be seconded in order to be discussed. Members can then debate the main motion and the members do this in a form of obtaining the floor. The Chair will recognize different Commission members and allow them to speak as far as what their debate is regarding that particular motion. Then, there’ll be a close of debate typically done by a voice vote of all those in favor. Because we’re doing a remote meeting that \[unclear\] it will have to be done by roll call vote and I’ll touch upon that a little bit later. And, finally, a majority vote will be \[unclear\] take that specific action that was requested by the motion. So for basic parliamentary procedure, it is the Chairperson who maintains order and acts as the facilitator and moderator of the meeting. Generally, parliamentary rules are intended to provide organization and structure in conducting meetings in an efficient manner that ensures the protection of the members’ rights to properly make input during the consideration of a proposed motion. A motion is a formal proposal by a 4 member in a meeting that the Commission take a specific action. This is generally how a motion is brought before the Commission: a member will make a motion – generally not the Chair – another member will second the motion. The Chair will then speak the question of the motion and depending on the type of motion, the motion will then become open for debatable discussion. When the motion is on the floor and open for debate there are several procedural motions – the subsidiary motions – that can commonly take place and this is ranking from highest to lowest. There can be a procedural motion to lay the main motion on the table, to call for the question – which is to restate the – to end debate and restate the premise of the motion, to amend the motion or postpone the motion to a certain time. Specifically, the procedural motion to lay it on the table – this allows the assembly to set aside the substantive motion –the main motion – to attend other objectives necessary. This is recommended uses only when there’s a real urgency that does require a second – it is not debatable or amendable – and a majority vote will pass. This is the most common which is called for the question – this procedural motion is used to close debate and to move on to voting of the main motion. It requires a second – it’s not debatable – and it requires a 2/3rds vote to pass. If the call for the question passes, the Chair will then close debate, restate the question of the motion, and call for a vote. This procedural motion postponed to a certain time – this is used to postpone the main motion or other matter on the agenda to a specific time of a specific event. It requires a second, it is debatable, and a majority vote will pass it. So, say, for instance, you want to consider a particular motion not at this time, not at this meeting, but after something else happens you can postpone that entire motion to the following meeting. Last, as far as we’re discussing, is a motion to amend – this motion is used to modify the language of the main motion before it’s voted upon and usually this will be in response to some ongoing debate. This motion to amend does require a second, it is debatable, and a majority vote will pass it. This is quick outline of procedural, parliamentary procedure. Generally speaking, there’s a motion made, then the motion is seconded. The Chair will state the question of the motion and open it up for discussion or debate. This discussion or debate is between Commissioners only and all those that are not a part of the Commission will not be able to participate. There may be intervening procedural motions that – and those examples I provided today were: lay on the table – which sets aside the motion for a more urgent matter; call for question – which ends discussion or debate; postpone to a certain time or move the motion to either a different hearing or a different specified time and the last was to amend the motion, which allows to modify the statement of the question for the members to vote on – the action the members are supposed to take. The guiding principles of parliamentary procedure is to allow every member an equal opportunity to participate. The rules must be consistently applied and remarks during debate should be confined to the merits of the pending question and they should also be mindful of limits of debate – so you can’t bring in outside topics that does not go directly to the motion that you’re supposed to be discussing at that time. Other important procedural motions would include withdrawing from the motion and recess. So recess will allow the motion – the entire 5 meeting to have a break without actually adjourning the meeting. Withdrawal of the motion would allow the original substantive motion to be withdrawn. Next slide and recess is calling for an interruption to the meeting. The recess does require a second, it is not debatable, and a majority vote will carry for a recess. So this is the second part of parliamentary procedure – this is regarding parliamentary procedure and the Sunshine Law and how they intersect with one another. So the basic precepts of Sunshine Law is that every meeting must be open to the public – unless there’s an Executive Session for a limited meeting is allowed. Also, if there are disruptive persons they can be removed. There’s no discussing of Commission business outside of an open meeting, except for a permitted interaction group. Commissioners – so Commissions must provide notice except \[unclear\] testimony and keep minutes. And they cannot consider matters that are not included on the agenda because that goes to improper notice. Notice and agenda – the agenda must list all of the items that the board intends to consider. It must be sufficiently detailed to provide the public with adequate notice of the matters to be considered. It must – the notice must be filed and agenda must be filed at least 6 days prior with the County Clerk’s office and Commission’s office. This would include all of the handouts that are gonna be provided to the meeting. So I put this little star here because, um, there’s a couple of caveats. So, Sunshine Law requires that whatever the Commissioners are considering as far as what’s on the agenda – if it is something that’s not going to be specifically heard in an Executive meeting – it does need to be made available to the public. In the most common meetings which are public in person meeting – these handouts could come at the same time the Commissioners will be able to see them which would be the day of the meeting. However, because we have remote meetings – there needs to be advanced notice because any of the handouts of the Commissioners will also need to be uploaded to the, Commissioner’s website. So they need to be uploaded at the same time the agenda is going to be uploaded so that the public has an opportunity to review what’s the handouts are gonna be along with the agenda. So that’s why it’s all gonna be done before six days prior especially because GMAC tends to have remote meetings. Oh, and that’s just the one note that I have. If you had in person meeting the handouts could be provided at the start of the meeting to everybody present at the same time to the Commissioners. So for remote meetings, at the start of the meeting the presiding officer must announce the names of the participating members – in this particular regard I believe Barbara took that particular avenue by doing a roll call as far as everybody’s present. Each member participating from a non-public location must state who else is with the member if anyone and each vote will have to be a roll call vote. When it comes to Commission member visibility – a quorum of Commission members must be visible to the public during the public portion of the remote meetings. This visibility requirement does not apply during an executive session, which is closed to the public. All Commission members who are present at the meeting must have at least an eye connection and they must state their name before they speak. This is so that each individual who is attending know who’s speaking and too so that the minutes can adequately reflect who is speaking. 6 Permitted inter-action groups or investigatory groups. Permitted inter-action groups are two or more members but less than a quorum can be assigned to investigate a matter relating to official business of the board. And in this instance, a commission, provided that 1) the scope of the investigation is identified, 2) all findings and recommendations are presented at a regular meeting, and 3) deliberation and decision making, if any, occurs at a subsequent meeting. So the investigatory group is not the one that makes the decisions \[unclear\] the investigation and provide their findings to the rest of the commission and it’s the commission at large that will decide what they’re going to do. Permitted inter-action groups regarding an informational meeting or presentation. Two or more members but less than a quorum can meet not specifically and exclusively organized for and directed toward the members of the board. So basically, two or more members can go to another meeting that’s not organized for the Commission. You can go to that meeting and as long as there’s no commitment to a vote made or sought meaning the members are not trying to seek consensus among themselves regarding this informational meeting or presentation and as long as those members come back to the rest of the Commission and report at the next duly noticed meeting, 1) the members who attended and the matters that were discussed that did relate to Commission business. So basically, you can go to other meetings and presentations outside of our regular Commission meetings as long as there are no more than two, I’m sorry, as long as there’s less than a quorum and there’s two or more members and you don’t speak about trying to gain consensus on a particular position regarding the meeting or presentation and you report back what you did and what the discussion was about. Other permitted inter-actions – these are other exceptions – two or more members but less than a quorum can discuss selection of board officers. Two or more members but less than a quorum can engage in discussions with the head of the department if discussion limited to a certain administrative topics. This is just a side note – if there is a Commission meeting and there is not quorum meet, the Commission can still receive testimony and new presentations as long as there are no votes or actions that would otherwise take place. So as long as you’re not trying to put forward any motions for the Commissioners to take any action you can still receive testimony and presentations. And, that concludes my presentation for the Game Management Advisory Commission and I will open up the floor for any questions if the Chair sees fit. BL: Brian – District 4. Can you hear me? SW: Yes, I can… BL: OK. I got two questions. All right, if we don’t have enough people for quorum and there’s a presentation – how do we go about making rules and regulations or passing 7 things at the next meeting? Did the not – did the people that didn’t go can they go back and watch the meeting and see the presentation and be able to vote when we have a next quorum, is that possible? Or, if the presentation’s watched without quorum we can’t do anything in regards to that presentation? SW: So, um, because there are minutes that are done and are presentations that are being held, um, the Commissioners can review the minutes and they can review the presentations – if, at the subsequent meeting where there is a quorum – you would like to take action – the Commission as a whole would like to take action. But it does require a quorum in order to actually hear a substitute motion on actions to be taken. Does that answer your question? BL: Yes. SW: OK. BL: The second one is what’s the difference between a lobbying and advice since GMAC has no money to buy politicians how can we lobby? SW: So GMAC cannot lobby. BL: What’s the difference between a lobby and advising is my question. SW: So advising is providing your recommendations so that \[unclear as interruption\] in the charter being able to provide reports. BK: We can’t hear anything… SW: I’m sorry I wasn’t sure if Barbara knew she was unmuted… Barbara are you trying to do something? OK. I’m sorry. I got a little distracted. Commissioner Brian – can you re-state your question I got distracted. BL: Yeah, what’s the difference between advising a legislator and lobbying the legislator for a bill? SW: So lobbying has a very distinct set of rules regarding lobbying. You cannot urge a particular Congressional member or a – how do I say this – a council member to take a specific action or a specific vote. What you can do is, advise the council in the entirety – so county council in the entirety as to what the Game Management Commission’s position is given whatever the topic is. So you would have to inform them of what the topic is, what the various pros and cons are of that particular issue, and what the Game Management Advisory Commission’s recommendations are in light of all that. So the Game Management Advisory Commission’s recommendations are not considered lobbying because you’re not – you’re giving a particular point of view given a particular 8 set of facts but you’re not trying to get individual council persons to vote one way or another. BL: In regards to the legislature – legislation – cause we can’t talk to all the legislators cause there’s only so many legislators in a committee or in a commission… SW: Yes. And you shouldn’t be. So basically, what you would be doing would be submitting your letter of advice most likely if you’re – if GMAC is in support of a particular bill, you can provide that letter as testimony. But that’s not considered lobbying. BL: OK. So if we go to Honolulu on the opening ceremonies and give our recommendations on the bills that come forward that strike our fancy that would be giving advice? SW: As long as you’re doing that in open session I think that would be OK. But you do have to be careful because you do not want to cross the line into lobbying. Cause that’s can \[unclear\] the Commissioners into trouble. BL: That still doesn’t answer a question. What can I say and do? Can I walk into a legislator’s say \[unclear\] his office and say in regards to 1872 GMAC thinks that this is a good bill? SW: Ah, no. You couldn’t – you would not be able to do that. What you could do is provide to the chairperson of a particular committee the letter that talks about GMAC’s position on that particular bill and in that position \[unclear\] you have to provide, you know, your substance as to why GMAC has a particular position and that you can do. But if you go… BL: I can still go as an individual and talk to these persons one-on-one correct? SW: No, yeah, you would not be able to do that. BL: Why not? I’m a private citizen and I can put my GMAC on the side… SW: So if you are doing it as a private citizen that’s different. But you can’t do it under the guise of being GMAC. BL: OK. SW: So you have to make a distinct role and I would caution commissioners because you are known to be a commissioner of the Game Management Advisory Commission. You want to be careful that when you are – if you are trying to do any actions as a private individual, – that you make it clear that you’re doing those actions as a private individual and not as a member of the Game Management Advisory Commission because it could run you afoul. 9 BL: OK. So I could legally say this is Brian Ley from the GMAC but I’m talking to you as a private citizen. That would be OK? SW: Ah… I would say… BL: In clarifying that and I have ties to GMAC but I’m talking to you as a private citizen. ‘cause I see Slim do that with the USDA – he comes in and gives this USDA pitch and says OK I’m taking my hat off I’m now talking to you guys as a private citizen. SW: Yes. But I would probably put the emphasis on the private citizen. BL: OK. So as long we’re clear we can state who we are so that way nobody can say, well, everybody knows that you’re entitled to GMAC and you just weren’t making it clear. SW: Yes. BL: No, we need to make it clear that we have ties to a group but we’re talking to you as a private citizen. SW: Ah, yeah, and I will – how do I say this – so here is just – so lobbying is specifically defined as seeking the influence of a politician or public official on a particular issue. BL: What issue? SW: It includes persuading and interest representation in the act of lawfully attempting to influence the actions, policies and decisions of government officials, often legislators or members of regulatory agencies. So that’s you going to them individually, right? So that’s what we’re distinguishing. GMAC has the ability and it’s within the charter – I’ll go back to that particular slide – to inform agencies. BL: I guess my next question is, are Abraham and I gonna be able to go to the opening ceremonies and talk to the head of the commissions – cause it’s a new season where everybody’s got new positions and everything. Abraham and I can go to Honolulu on opening ceremonies – talk to the heads of the committees as GMAC but if we talk to an individual since we’ve got a good rapport with a lot of these people, say, hey, this is Brian, glad you made it through reelection, how’s everything going? We can do that correct? SW: No. No. So that’s crossing the line. BL: Why is that crossing the line for being honest? SW: \[Unclear\] - That’s mixing it up too much. That’s – because you’re there for official GMAC business – your business there has to official GMAC business. You wouldn’t be able to 10 benefit from the funds that would otherwise provide you with the flight to the capitol for attending GMAC business and then use it to otherwise lobby these legislators as an individual. BL: OK. But we can still go and talk to the head of the committees and… SW: Yes… BL: ….what about the \[unclear\]. SW: So if you look back at the County Charter 6-9.3 the Commission shall advise the County, State and Federal agencies, right? It doesn’t say specific individuals within those agencies. It says those agencies. And also, that you are to advise the County Council. BL: So if we tell the County Council we plan on going to Honolulu talking to say like David Tarnes – head of the Land and Water on bill x y z in relationship to this we could do that. SW: So I would caution away from personal inter-actions in that way. And this sounds like it’s a deeper conversation which would be more beneficial to be had in an executive meeting because I as GMAC’s attorney can provide legal advice in that venue and right now you’re giving me some provisos and some hypotheticals and I would prefer if we talk about those specifics in an executive meeting under and attorney-client privilege. BL: OK. I mean it’s not hypothetical… I mean the legislation’s season opens in February which is just several months away… SW: Yes, and… BL: ….and we need to get this all cleared up before we… SW: Yes, my understanding of your ability to go there is under the guise of getting information right under information gathering so that you can gather information about these different laws that are being proposed and in that avenue you can ask your various representatives what is their thought process behind those laws but you should not be trying to persuade any individual legislator to go one way or another on the particular bill. BL: OK. I guess we’ll have to have the executive meeting and get this all clarified before February. SW: I think that’s probably best, yes… BL: No more questions, thank you. 11 SW: Is there any other commission member that has any questions. AA: Chair Abraham – District 5. In the charter – always from the charter – 6-9.3 – you only get \[interruption\] county, state and federal agencies on any matter affecting the \[unclear\] but, why do you have only the county highlighted in that, you know, it says, a Commission shall… SW: Yes, so, because we are a county commission our first and foremost priority is going to be the County. Our responsibility is going to be the County first, um, state and federal agencies – because we are a county entity – can decide to 100% ignore us. But because GMAC is a county commission and are directly supposed to report to the county council – that is our main \[unclear\] that’s why I highlighted that. I wanted to remind everyone involved, everyone on this meeting that the county is the first entity that we should be reporting to as far as what are the Commission’s recommendations. I’m not saying that you can’t, ah, advise state and federal agencies, you can, you can, it’s just… AA: \[Unclear\] even just the federal government can’t just go on and ignore us, right, but, we’ve been working with them for a while so… SW: I’m not saying that you should stop working with them… AA: Well, you should still have them highlighted in there… I know the primary thing is the County but, you know… SW: But it – would it make you feel better if I highlighted it right now… AA: It does not say when asked upon, – you know, the Chairman before me and the people that put GMAC together they really emphasized all that so… I don’t want you to come in and just throw it away on the side because there’s other people that came before me and came before all these Commissioners and fought very hard for this – just like they fought very hard for our meetings to stay night time and you guys choose to change it to day time, right. So, again, you guys put in, you guys just throwing the people to the side. SW: I’m sorry that you have these opinions, Chair. AA: Yeah, well, I’m not the only one. SW: I understand. I didn’t really see – I didn’t hear a question in that. Did I answer your question? AA: Yeah, cause, yeah, you highlighted it but there’s another one down on the bottom. SW: Is that agencies or state and federal? 12 AA: Right there. SW: As you may also, as far as the other, the reason why I highlighted the County is cause I wanted to make sure that people understood that we are a County commission and our first responsibility is to the County. AA: Well, I’m pretty sure everybody knows that we’re a County commission because we state that all the time that we’re a County commission. SW: OK. AA: But thanks for making that clear to everybody. TS: Ah, Abraham, this is Tony Sylvester. Can I ask a question or two actually? AA: Yes, Tony, go ahead. TS: OK. I don’t know who to direct it to but so I’ll just throw it out there but… SW: Appropriately speaking the question should be directed to the Chair. TS: OK, Chair… To protect our customary and traditional practices the Commission is not allowed to submit testimony or draft measures… AA: Um, I think at this time Tony, I cannot answer that question so maybe like Sylvia said we get more legal – maybe if we can share after we come out of that private meeting or… TS: OK. I would appreciate if that question can be followed up on before the legislative session. And then my second question is – permitted inter-action groups – so if a permitted inter-action group identifies a need or an issue arises – that requires legislative action – can the Commission take action at that point? Cause a lot of times at the legislature there’s, you know, they contact us. I was the original chair of this Commission and a lot of times legislators would contact me to ask me some information and things like that so… It goes both ways – it’s not just us calling them. They also contact us, ah, that’s something, you know, how do we take – I don’t know what you’d do in that instance, right. SW: So, um, I’m gonna go ahead and answer both of the questions. The charter does not allow, ah, does not provide for GMAC specifically drafting legislation. They can provide advice and they can advise county, state and federal agencies. So if, um, if there is a specific legislator who is posing a question to the Commissioners overall – that question can be posed to the Commission overall and that can be put on the agenda and the Commission can discuss that particular issue and come up with a recommendation to be 13 sent to that particular legislator. But if that had come from the entire Commission – but each commissioner cannot – the Commission cannot go to the legislators. TS: But in order to protect and promote our traditional and customary practices we have to go to the legislature to do that. AA: \[Unclear\] Tony, hold on. Sylvia or Barbara do we still have quorum? Do we still have five representatives? SW: No, we do not. Austin needs to turn on his camera. Now we have quorum. AA: OK. Continue, Tony… TS: Yeah, so I mean to fulfill the mission of this GMAC – those are the things that is necessary to do, I mean, most of the actions that we deal with is stuff that happens at the legislature. Sometimes there’s erroneous bills that are put forth and we have to defend so how do we protect our customary and traditional practices if the County Game Commission can’t set forth the testimony or have counter measures to help protect these things that are written in this charter? I don’t understand that – we did that for ten years – it almost seems like the environmentalists is pissed off because there’s some progress done in this past session and now they’re going back and checking the list off here trying to figure out they can screw us basically. SW: I’m – Mr. Sylvester, I’m sorry, the rules have not changed. I cannot speak to what was done before but I can tell you what is exactly within the charter and lobbying has never been allowed. I do not know what the specific actions that were taken before. I do not know what advice you were given or not before, all I can speak to is what the charter says and what the charter allows for, um, and as far as providing advice – there are a number of official channels that the Commission can provide advice to county, state and federal agencies including the state legislature and those are the methods that are allowed in the charter. TS: But submitting testimony and drafting a measure is not lobbying. SW: Submitting testimony is not lobbying, that is correct. That is allowed. TS: Right. And what about drafting measures? SW: Not, you cannot draft measures, no. You are not a legislative body. AA: Abraham – District 5. Tony? TS: Yes, sir… 14 AA: So this last legislative season we did not draft any bills that, you know… We worked with some legislators, you know, and advised them, um, in ways to, you know, draft it but we did not draft it ourselves. I not sure, as Sylvia says, I not sure how you guys did it in the past but we just kinda, you know, recommended or advised but we didn’t force anybody’s hand. TS: Hmm… Yeah, I just, I don’t understand that part about how that’s lobbying. That’s a political process that’s open to everyone. We’re not a non-profit organization. SW: No, you are not. TS: Yeah… AA: OK. Another question Tony? Or have your questions been answered? TS: Um, yeah, well just the inter-action group – if they inter-action group comes up with something… SW: So the inter-action group under most auspices needs to be created first by the Commission. If the inter-action group’s purpose is to investigate, the entire Commission needs to approve the inter-action group – they need to approve – one second let me get to that slide – the Commission would need to approve the scope of the investigation – the findings and after the investigation is done – all of the findings and recommendations need to be presented at a regular meeting to the Commission as a whole and any deliberation or decision making that needs to happen would happen by the Commission as a whole. TS: OK. Thank you, Sylvia. RD: Ah, Chair, Robert Duerr. I have a couple questions. AA: Go ahead, Robert. RD: Yeah, I thought in the presentation that audio only was required for a quorum. SW: Visibility means to be for a quorum, audio only is for any additional members beyond the quorum. At all times a quorum needs to be visible. RD: OK. The other thing is in Hawaii code 6-9.3 is Robert’s Rule of Order regulatory or is it a recommended policy? SW: It is a policy. It is used by all boards and commissions. 15 RD: OK. Is that a policy that’s mandated – that’s mandatory with regulations? Or is it suggested policy? SW: Um, I’m not sure what you mean by suggested policy. RD: Is it in the law – are you breaking the law if you don’t use Robert’s Rules of Order? SW: No. RD: OK. Thank you. SW: No, you’re not. We would be in big trouble if that was… NP: Nani Pogline here – a question from the public for Sylvia Wong. Can you hear me? SW: Yes. NP: Thank you. Ah, so apparently, um, GMAC night meetings were cancelled immediately because on an emergency situation and so, um, I guess Deputy Bobby Command ordered that and that he could trump any GMAC consideration meeting to debate the issue just like that. It’s a right, so, this security issue has kinda been resolved – the person who was upsetting the meeting was spoken to – they are sorry and they would like to apologize… OK, go ahead… SW: So right now on the agenda what we’re …. NP: This is about the agenda; this is - I’m getting to it… SW: No, no, no… It’s not… NP: It’s a question about what you’re speaking about – your subject matter it’s on the agenda. SW: OK. NP: So my question is since the issue can be resolvable can GMAC write an advisory letter to the county advising the county to resume night meetings. That’s on the agenda – right what you’re talking about. Thank you. SW: Um, the answer to that is no because according to the Hawaii County charter that is outside of the mandates of your charter. Now, can they as a Commission ask and work with the Mayor’s Office? Yes, my understanding is that’s what they have been doing but ultimately, when it comes to the devising of meetings and the administrative processes of meetings – that comes under the Office of Management of the Mayor’s office and that’s within the charter therefore \[unclear\]. 16 NP: So GMAC has no say of the scheduling or location of their meetings? No opinion or no opportunity to give input? SW: They have already provided their input in the \[unclear\]. NP: It was never with the meeting ahead of time... SW: No. NP: ….a GMAC meeting where \[unclear\]. SW: \[Unclear\] cause it wasn’t the Commission that made the decision… NP: So the commissioners never had a chance to vote or say… SW: No, because that’s not within their powers. NP: That all, how can that be Sunshine? SW: It is not a – it was not a Commission’s decision. NP: So, um, even though certain members of GMAC were able to approach the Mayor and whoever they… SW: It was not within those member’s powers or ultimate decision. It was always within the Office of the Mayor’s power. NP: So GMAC can’t formulate a letter of advice to the County on an official motion and vote on the subject matter? SW: No, that’s not within the powers of commissions. As far as meeting times and locations that’s not specific under the commission. NP: Um, well in past times GMAC was treated much better by the County than this and that’s all I have to say. SM: May I say something – Stanley Mendes. AA: Go ahead, Stanley. SM: Yeah, this, ah, discussion we’re having – we used to have that before the GMAC meeting to learn about procedures and everything – you just took up almost an hour of the 17 meeting to discuss this – why not have this before the meeting instead of dragging everybody into this? That’s for the Corporation Counsel. SW: Yeah, I understand the question. However, it doesn’t go to the content of what is being presented. SM: How come it did before? SW: I’m sorry, I don’t understand your question. SM: What you’re presenting today was always done before the Commission meeting – the regular meeting was done about an hour or so before the meeting and now you taking up all this time to discuss parliamentary procedures and all that and taking away from the meeting. SW: Mr. Mendes… SM: I suggest, that you do this type of teaching on their own time. SW: So that doesn’t sound like a question. SM: No, it’s not a question. It’s a – we’ve been one hour listening to you talking about rules and regs which has nothing to do with us – it has only thing to do with the Commissioners. So we should move on. AA: Thank you, Stanley. So we going move on. RD: (R. Duerr, District 1). Chair, one moment please before we move on. A question for Sylvia. In understanding the needs of the County to have GMAC meeting at a new time, is it possible for GMAC in an investigation to understand this – to request emails and correspondence from the Mayor’s Office on this matter? SW: No, that is outside of the Commission’s authority and powers. RD: OK. So Freedom of Information requests are outside of investigating powers of GMAC. SW: No. Your investigative powers as within GMAC is within the charter itself which includes these thing: the meeting times does not fall within the powers of the Commission. And I’ll just note for the record that that was Robert Duerr who lodge the question. RD: OK. Thank you. AA: So last question for me. So what you said about the times so in our draft rules it stated that our time of the meetings was supposed to be at 6:00p. So what happened to that? 18 SW: Yes, the draft rules that you had put together… AA: Well, we didn’t it was… SW: ….it’s my assistant… Do you want to move on to the next item on the agenda? AA: One last question, one question. \[Unclear\] Go ahead… SW: The draft rules first and foremost as far as the time – the time would no longer be valid and would otherwise have to be removed. Because even if you were to pass it as is in the rules – that particular power – the specific time – is not within your powers. Nor is the specific locations. AA: I guess we can have that discussion later… Ah, moving on to presentation B. DLNR Division of Aquatics and Resources, Biologist Troy Sakihara will present and discuss the new administrative amendments to lay net rules. Troy? You on Zoom? b. DLNR Division of Aquatic Resources, Aquatic Biologist Troy Sakihara will present/discuss the new Administrative amendment to lay net rules. TS: Yeah, I’m here. Um, can I share screen? Am I able to share my screen? SW: Ah, yeah, one moment, um, I’m sorry, Commissioner Duerr can you please picture that you’re visible during this whole time – I do not believe that \[unclear\] thank you. And, um, I’ll make sure that I share \[unclear\]. TS: It says the sharing is disabled… OK everybody you see the presentation? AA: Yeah. TS: Mahalo for having me at the GMAC meeting. So I just want to give an abridged overview of some proposed amendments to Hawaii Administrative Rules, Chapter 13-75, Rules Regulating Possession and Use of Certain Fishing Gear, particularly lay nets and Chapter 13-60.4 Rules relating to the West Hawaii Regional Fishery Management Area in Hawaii. So a bit of background – so in 2021 DLNR was given legislative authority to amend the HAR Chapter 13-75 and Chapter 13-60.4 Rules – specifically to amend the existing lay net rules and also to amend the \[unclear\] West Hawaii Regional Fishery Management Area rules to align it with the proposed lay net rules. And also a bunch of housekeeping amendments consisting of some grammatical corrections and some additions of definitions to provide more clarity and remove ambiguity in the rules. Um, so on August 24 – last month – DLNR held a statewide public hearing on these proposed rules – so it was kind of a hybrid public hearing. We had a Zoom session but we also had in person 19 sites for people that wanted to provide testimony in person. So, I’m just gonna be briefly going over some of the things that were proposed during that public hearing. So the purpose of the laynet rule amendments are four fold – first is to promote better compliance and basically crack down on illegal and unethical use of lay nets. The second is to enhance enforceability. Our DOCARE Division had some challenges with enforcing the lay net rules based on the existing rules. Also, we want to streamline management, um, you know, to the registration and permitting process and, um, dealing with violations, um, with people that are using lay nets. And also to provide stronger statistical data regarding user ship of people that are using lay nets in Hawaiian waters. This is a summarized list of the amendments that are proposed for the HR Chapter 13- 75. The first one is adding new definitions, um, for fresh water stream which consists of any flowing body of water that has any type of fresh water influence, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be purely fresh water – it can be brackish or even intermittent streams within the stream mouth. Multi-tunnel lay nets – basically lay nets that have two panels fixed to it and throw nets – which are circular nets with leads around the perimeter are used and thrown over fish to catch them. We’re also proposing amendments prohibiting a take of sharks with firearms, ah, this is to be in compliance with Act 51 which makes it unlawful to intentionally harm or take sharks in state waters. Next is to clarify that akule may be taken legally with legal throw nets. It’s not something that’s common but it can occur so we wanted to put some language in the rules to specify that it a legal method. The proposed rules also removes the existing lay net registration requirements and in place of that establishes a lay net permit requirement for lay net owners and issuing a fee for the use and possession of the lay nets annually. Ah, the next is requiring gill nets and lay nets to be attended at all times, um, next is amending the special lay net rules that apply to Molokai – so they have a subset of rules specific to Molokai but we wanted to align those rules and amend those rules to be in line – in alignment with the statewide lay net rules. Also clarifying the authorized penalties for violations of the Chapter 13-75 and also providing notice of the State’s authority to utilize civil asset forfeiture as an enforcement tool for violations to Chapter 13-75. And this a bulleted summarized list of the amendments to the work model rules so basically it’s just aligning and amending the rules so it aligns with the proposed lay net rules. So, again, adding a new definition for multi-panel lay nets and then, again, amending this special lay net rules that applies to West Hawaii requiring lay nets to be attended at all times and the same language for – that was stated in the Chapter \[unclear\] as far violations and penalties. So this slide is basically going out and highlighting the specific sections of the existing lay net rule that would be changed with the proposed lay net amendments – so the existing lay net rule requires each lay net to be registered with the Department for use in State waters – so that means each lay net gets a unique registration tag and ID number. Current lay net rules are – we’re unable to revoke or suspend registrations so that makes it, you know, challenging for users that have violated or conducted violations – we are unable to revoke their or suspend their registrations so it makes management and enforcement an issue. Current rules require ID tags again with registration numbers unique to each lay net. There’s currently no registration fee so it’s free and under the current rules, users are allowed to leave their 20 net unattended for about or up to 30 minutes until their needs are inspected. So I’m gonna propose the net amendments – this requires net owners to obtain and lay net permit for use of their nets in State waters. And then the permit will actually cover each net that’s owned by the individuals so the same permit number will be assigned to each of the nets that are owned by that person. Permits can be revoked, suspended or withheld upon lay net violations to Chapters 13-75. It does require ID tags just as existing rules with the permit number affixed to the tags, so basically four tags per net on each corner of the net, ah, there’s a proposed $25.00-dollar annual permit fee which may be waived for SNAP benefit recipients and nets must be attended at all times under the proposed amendments. But I’d also like to stress that these are the rules that were proposed and presented at the public hearing, um, so, again, nothing is final and the Division is considering all the testimony that was provided and taking that into consideration to determine our course of action. So with that – if you have any questions, again, this is just a brief overview – an abridged version of what was presented – I have a QR code up there – you can scan it and it gives you a direct link to the web page that has more detailed information and a more comprehensive overview of the rules and also links to the draft rules format and other pertinent information that you can get from that website. But, if not, you can also email DLNR.aquatics@hawaii.gov which is our general email and contact number there or you can contact me directly if you have any questions. ?: \[Unclear\] TS: Yeah, that’s it. Thanks. AA: Abraham – District 5. Thanks, Troy for the presentation, so do you have some way that you can share the presentation like the You Tube feeds and stuff directly in the chat? TS: Yeah, I can pop the link in there. AA: Thanks. TS: Yeah, I’ll pop it in there. AA: And, then, as far as the public goes if any other public members want to submit testimony you guys can submit testimony via email or call the DLNR office – the Aquatics Division – and submit you guys testimony that way. Any questions or comments from the Commissioners? LT: Eo. Aloha, Leomana – District 3. Mahalo for that presentation. I just wanted to ask – I guess what marine mammals are considered game mammals? You know how we have this game mammal definition in Hawaii – it’s kind of skewed because non-native invasives definitions – I just wanted to ask what would be considered an aquatic game mammal that the GMAC Commission would be, I guess, have kuleana over. 21 TS: So native marine mammals that are considered game in Hawaii? Is that what…. LT: Well, I guess any aquatic game animal. I really don’t know what the definition of like an aquatic game animal – I know where the game function. I don’t understand which one in the ocean is considered a game animal that we have in Hawaii. TS: Oh, that would basically be fish that are, you know, that people can catch and eat, um, are considered game animals. LT: Yeah, but you know Hawaii – especially with our wild animals like the sheep and cows – they’re not really considered – I guess up until this year we didn’t have any jurisdiction over them because the way we defined game animal and the way we also defined native – non-native invasive animal as the same. And, so the GMAC Commission – we didn’t have authority to make any decisions for these animals because they weren’t under our supervision, because how we define them, and so I’m trying to define what is, an aquatic game animal, just from my, you know, just so I know. TS: Yeah, I’m not sure if that’s a question for me but as far as how DLNR and DAR defines “game” that falls under our specific jurisdiction would be like fin fish, um, or basically any type of marine animal that’s allowed to be taken for consumption would be considered “game” for us. I’m not sure what/how GMAC defines “game” but that’s what DLNR defines as “game” is fish basically or marine life that can be taken or consumed. LT: Oh, OK, right on. Thank you. BL: (B. Ley, District 4) - Let Dexter (Egdamin) talk first and then I’ll talk after Dexter. He’s been waiting patiently. DE: Thanks, Brian. Ah, Troy, I got a few questions for you… TS: OK. DE: Yeah, this basically concerning Wailoa State Park. What happened to the mullet? What happened to the water? Is it poaching, is it – what’s going on? There’s, you know, for the last couple of years the population has been consistently declining… TS: Right, OK… DE: ….and you have any idea what’s going on? TS: OK. So I did receive your… AA: Troy, Dexter… 22 TS: Yeah, go ahead… AA: Sorry, ah, Dexter, but that’s off of the agenda item so if you \[unclear\] and you guys can have that discussion. DE: Oh, I thought you gave them to Barbara to put on the agenda. AA: Yeah, you can send ‘em to Barbara and then… DE: I did… AA: ….and then we can put ‘em on the agenda. DE: I did… AA: I never get ‘em. DE: Oh, I’m sorry then. OK. AA: And then that going be on to one future meeting, ah? TS: Yeah, Dexter, I can talk to you after – but I did receive your questions so… DE: Oh, you did? TS: Yeah, we can talk about it, yeah. We can talk about it… DE: Thank you… AA: Yeah, OK, Brian? BL: (B. Ley, District 4) Hey, Troy, thanks for your presentation. Hey, I got a couple questions. If we can’t kill or harm sharks anyways why do we need a special permit to include, firearms. I mean, if can’t harm or take sharks anyways is this just another State thing to demonize guns? TS: No, it’s just – there’s language in the rules about using - being able to use firearms to dispatch large pelagic fish when they’re landed on a boat and in the existing rules it has sharks listed in there that you can dispatch a shark if it’s caught with a firearm. So with the Act 51 it basically prohibits any type of intentional killing or take of sharks within marine waters. So it’s basically making it in compliance with Act 51. BL: OK, yeah, I was gonna say why, do we need to clarify it if we already can – it doesn’t make any difference how you do it. Second question on the civil assets. What do you 23 guys’ determination on the civils assets seizures? Are you just talking the lay nets or are you talking about going and taking the guys’ prop and everything involved with it? TS: I believe it’s anything that was used to violate the chapter so basically with your lay nets. I’m not sure – I would need to speak to our legal fellows and our teams to get more specifics and accurate details on that, um, but my understanding it’s anything that was used to commit that violation can be seized. BL: OK. Cause… TS: I can find clarification for that… BL: OK. Yeah, cause I know like we get caught hunting with shells in our guns and they just take the guns but under civil asset seizure, you know, they can take the \[unclear\] cars and everything else so every time I see those two words together it kind of throws a red flag out and, you know, it’s happened in the past where, you know, the State has abused its powers to make a quick buck on people to make a lesson so I wanted to make sure we’re not setting ourselves up for, ah, coming in there and \[unclear\] people that are just trying to feed themselves, you know, so I just want to clear that up. I appreciate everything you’ve done, Troy, thank you. TS: Yeah, no, thank you… SW: I’m sorry Chair but I believe you’re on mute... AA: OK. Sorry about that, um, when is the last day for – how long can we take to submit testimony or an advisory letter to DAR? TS: Ah, let’s see, hold on… So written testimony had to be submitted by September 9, so it passed the date already, um, unfortunately. But, again, reiterating so the recording of the public hearing is available – I put in that link for you. But, anyway, you can look at – view the public hearing that was recorded and see what testimony was provided and the Division is currently taking all the testimony into consideration to determine the next course of action, so, just to put that out there. Nothing that I presented today is final or it’s still just proposals. AA: OK. Thanks. So… TS: And I put in the Chat so it has the - basically all the information about these proposals – the hearing and everything is on that webpage and links to different – the hearing and also the – a more comprehensive presentation of what I gave is provided there. AA: OK. So can we have a – can the Commissioner make a motion to advise the Department of Aquatic Resources the topic being after, we have a discussion. 24 SW: I’m sorry – I believe Commissioner Griffey has a question, he has his hand up. AA: Oh, I cannot see. Austin, you have a question? AG: Yeah, um, for Troy. Where do we go to know how – let’s say I want to buy a crop net – how do I know what – specific type of net to buy and where do we get permits for it? TS: So to buy a lay net? AG: Yes. Where do you go for permits for the lay net and then how do we know what the specs are on the lay net for purchasing one. TS: OK. So the existing rules – there’s a whole list of our existing rules on the DAR webpage, um, but, ah, the existing specs as far as lay nets go which aren’t gonna be changed with the proposed rules or whatever is amended is 125 feet long maximum, 7’ high and mesh minimum size is 2 and ¾ inch stretch mesh, single panel. So no multi-panel nets. That’s the current rules as far as lay net dimensions and specifications. The permits, again, this is all going through the rule making process – so nothing is in effect yet, um, but the current rules require lay net users to register their net at our district offices – the amendments that go into place then or whatever is amended will likely require a permit instead of the registration for each net. AG: So, when you purchase a net you’ve got to bring it down to the DAR office and have it inspected. TS: Basically, you don’t necessarily have to bring your net to the office, um, cause we understand it’s a really humbug to bring a huge lay net to the office but you come in and then you fill out a form basically writing all the specifications of your net description and then your information that we can held on record, yeah, and then we register that net under your name and issue you tags for your net. AG: OK. Is there any permit for throw nets? TS: No… AG: Still the same? But what’s the eye – two inch? TS: Two-inch stretch – no registration needed for throw nets, no… AG: OK. Sounds good. Thank you. TS: Yeah. 25 AA: Thanks, Austin. Thanks, Troy… Ah, next we going move on to DOFAW Wildlife Biologist Kanalu Sproat… LT: Leomana – District 3. Did you want to set a motion to advise the Aquatic Commission? AA: Yup. LT: Leomana – District 3. Can I set a motion to take a vote on advising the DLNR Aquatics? SW: Now would be open for discussion… \[Unclear\] AA: Any discussion from Commissioners? SW: Oh, I’m sorry. I forgot, I didn’t hear a second. AA: No there wasn’t a second yet, was waiting for the second, and you chimed in. BL: Brian – District 4. I second that motion. AA: OK. Leomana made a motion, Brian made a second and now we’re open for discussion so any discussion from Commissioners to draft a letter to advise DAR on their rule changes. RD: I have a few comments. The first comment is a nuisance shark – when maikos also known as makos get on board a boat they become very dangerous and a threat and ah, sometimes they have to be eliminated. And the second thing I’d like to mention is that DAR has in fact used forfeitures to take vehicles and boats in the violation of aquarium collecting and that was the case in Kawaihae where that happened so \[unclear\] include whatever is being used by the person who’s violating it. LT: None for me. SW: I’m sorry, Chair, I believe you’re on mute still. AA: OK, as far as drafting up a letter. We would have to take it on different avenues, so we’ll have to have another discussion on our next meeting to draft up the letter in-between so let’s move forward from that. Is that all right Sylvia? SW: Yes, if you want to have a letter drafted in the interim you could do a permitted inter- action group for the letter drafting and then the letter. AA: OK. Yeah, let’s do that. OK. Let’s create an action group. So, can I have a motion to create a permitted inter-action group? 26 Action: A motion was made by Robert Duerr to create a PIAG for the DAR rules change. Seconded by, Cortney Okumura. The motion was carried unanimously by voice vote. RD: I make a motion to make a PIAG for the DAR rules changes. CO: I second that… BL: I second - sorry Cortney… AA: So Robert made a motion, Cortney second. Any discussion? We need to have a discussion? SW: I mean, you can just announce a discussion and if there’s no takers you can move on. AA: Any discussion from the Commissioners? OK. Sylvia can you make a roll call vote? SW: Yes. Just a second. Commissioner Ley? BL: Aye. SW: Commissioner Duerr? RD: Aye. SW: Commissioner Okamura? CO: Aye. SW: Commissioner Turalde? LT: Aye. SW: Is Commissioner Griffey still with us? AG: Aye. SW: Thank you. Commissioner Antonio? AA: Aye. SW: Is there anyone I left out? AA: No. 27 SW: OK. It appears that we have six ayes, the motion passes. AA: OK. Um, how do we decide who is gonna be or any Commissioners want to volunteer to be in that PIAG? And any members from the public want to be involved in that inter- action group, in that PIAG? NR: I would like to. Natalie Reynold. AA: Thank you, Natalie. Any Commissioners? CO: This is Cortney, District 8. I volunteer to be on the committee. AA: Thank you Cortney. RD: (R. Duerr, District 1) I’ll volunteer. AA: Thank you, Robert. RD: Thank you. AA: Any other Commissioners or members from the public willing to join the inter-action group? OK. Barbara. Robert, Natalie… MR: Abraham, I would like to join. This is Michelle Retwalla \[sp?\] AA: And Michelle… MR: Yes, sorry… AA: And this inter-action group is to create or to advise – come back to the Commission with an advisory for the Department of Aquatic Resources… MR: Yes… AA: OK. Moving on… SW: Can the letter be submitted to Barbara – because it has to get submitted along with the agenda so can it be provided no later than seven days prior to the next meeting? AA: Ah, between Cortney and Robert and one of you guys decide who wants to be a chair of that PIAG. CO: Sure and, yes, we can make sure that it is submitted seven days prior to the next meeting. 28 SW: Thank you. c. DOFAW Wildlife Biologist Kanalu Sproat will report on changes to Administrative Rules in adherence to HCR17, for Puuanahulu and Puuwaawaa hunting areas. AA: OK. Thank you. OK. Now we’re moving on to presentation C. DOFAW Wildlife Biologist Kanalu Sproat who will report on changes to the administrative rules to \[unclear\] to HCR 17 for Puuanahulu and Puuwaawaa hunting areas. Eh, Kanalu, you on Zoom. KS: \[Unclear\], you guys can hear me? AA: Yeah. KS: Am I able to share my screen? AA: Yeah. KS: How do I do that… SW: If you look at the bottom of Zoom there should be a little green \[unclear\] for the share screen… KS: OK. Can you guys see my screen? OK. So just a little background before we talk about the rules changes that we are drafting and we’re working on, um, as part of the last legislative session there was a House concurrent resolution that was passed creating and ungulate management task force for West Hawaii \[unclear\] population of goats and \[unclear\] pigs in \[unclear\] and so that task force – I already talked to Abraham a little bit about the organizers the organization providing a name to join the task force but \[unclear\] agency in response to the creation of that task force – one of the things we’re trying to do is to increase opportunities to take goats and pigs in a way to address the situation and so there’s a whole bunch – you guys can see the document \[unclear\] there’s a whole bunch of text I wasn’t planning on reading through it I was just gonna go down and show you guys the tables, kinda before and after on what the rules are now and how we plan to change it with our changes highlighted if that’s OK. You guys have questions before I get to that point I guess you can ask questions but… AA: Kanalu is there a way that you can share it in the Chat or no? Abraham – District 5. KS: Can I share a Word document in the Chat I can try. AA: If not, just email it to Barbara and then… 29 KS: I did email it to Barbara for the meeting, um, I don’t know if Barbara can email it to all the Commissioners but I think I can. Sorry, give me a second. I know we’re short on time anyways but… SW: You can email it to Barbara even after the meeting and she’ll upload it to the website. KS: I’ve already emailed it to her so she should have it, um… AA: Yeah, she can – Abraham – District 5 – then she can upload it to the website. You can continue… KS: OK. I’ll go back to it then. OK. Can you guys see that? AA: Yeah. KS: You can see the tables and the tops table is rules as they exist. The agenda says only Puuanahulu and Puuwaawaa. We have suggestions for Mauna Kea Unit A, Kaohe Unit G, PTA Unit E, Puuanahulu Unit D, and Puuwaawaa Unit F. And I have all of those here. If I’m not allowed to talk about the others than I won’t but I would like to if I can. I guess what’s the counsel on that? SW: You can speak about whatever goes directly to what’s on the agenda. So that would be HCR 17 for those particular hunting areas. KS: For those two areas? SW: Yes. KS: OK. So when you guys review the document it’s gonna have other areas on it as well and just understand we’re trying to kind of match all of the areas to kind of look similar as far as bag limits and seasons and stuff and so and I can, you know, you guys can call me, email me – whatever – to get more details about the Unit A and Unit G changes, um, we’ll start with Unit D then Puuanahulu, um, so the top part is PTA, cannot talk about PTA because it’s not on the agenda so we’ll talk about the second part which is Puuanahulu. Our proposed changes are to open up the hunting so – so right now the hunting in Puuanahulu is March thru June – weekends and State holidays. And there’s a bag limit of 2 goats, any sex, one ram, one pig. And that’s the season so it’s a daily bag limit and it’s also the bag limit for the season, so our changes for that would be to increase the pigs to four pigs, increase the goats to 3 goats so that it’s similar to Puuwaawaa, which is already 3 goats, um, any sex. Remove the requirement for a tag for goats – there’s no tag for pigs anyways so by remove the requirement for tag for goats and then also open up the hunting in that area, daily, year-round except on legal game bird hunting days and the, um, Spring, um, actually there’s no Spring hunting in 30 that area anyways so just, um, excuse me, the Fall game bird hunting days and then also because there’s no, um, there’s no separate category for non-typical and typical rams in that area I \[unclear\] poly or a non-typical ram category which would require a tag. So you still would have to have tags for sheep and you could get one tag for typical sheep and one tag for non-typical, um, you guys want to talk about that before I go on to Puuwaawaa or should I just talk about Puuwaawaa and you can ask questions about the whole thing in general? AA: We can just ask questions about the whole thing in general. KS: OK, so… This is what we were looking at – the changes we were looking at \[unclear\] Puuwaawaa. Right now the hunting at Puuwaawaa is – the rule hunt starts the first Saturday in August. That’s the general archery for just makai of Highway 190. It’s the bag limit is one non-typical ram, three goats any sex, and one pig, oh, yeah, and one pig there’s no tag required for the pig but we do required tags for the goats and the sheep. There’s also a special youth and disabled archery hunt in the safety zone that runs for the entire month of August – weekends and State holidays only and after the general archery makai – there’s four weekends of that and then there’s two weekends of muzzle loader hunt makai with the same bag limits and the same end tags are required. So the changes we’re proposing, um, in this area – is I want to split the Youth and the Disabled Hunt into two separate hunts – to me they’re just – it’s a different type of hunters hunting and I think to give the kids a better chance it would be better to separate them and let them go first and then put the disabled hunters in a hunt afterwards in the safety zone still. That would change to the month of August, Saturdays, Sundays and State holidays would be for the Youth and then we would do the month of September – same thing – weekends and State holidays for the disabled hunters. Now makai we’re changing makai to kind of match Unit E that I just talked about. It would be a year round stststst – it would be January 1 thru July 31 and October 1 to December 31 daily – archery hunt for goats and pigs – the bag limit for pigs will be 4, the bag limit for goats remains 3 but now there’s no season, I mean, you can continually get 3 animals per day, I guess, if you wanted to and then also removing the tag requirement. The reason it split up with January thru July and October thru December is because I would - we would increase the muzzle loader hunting, I guess, opportunity to hunt with muzzle loaders till the month of August and September, weekends and State holidays with those same bag limits of 4 pigs and 3 goats. That is all I have for our proposed rule changes for those units and I’ll take any questions. BL: Brian Ley – District 4. Hey, thanks, Kanalu. I always appreciate when you come and you always give wonderful presentations and I know I always bust your chops when you show up, but I appreciate we can still get along. Hey, you know, this is just basically reeks of eradication hunting and you know that and, ah, has anybody done any game management numbers for those areas cause I know the last years that I hunt there’s less animals every year and now you guys want to say, oh, the place is just crawling with animals, go and wipe ‘em out every day and get 3, you know, I went muzzle loading two 31 weekends – took one shot, you know, there were no goats. Rumor has it that the gold course has been trapping the goats out of the hunting area like crazy, so, you know, has anybody done a game numbers to find out how many goats are actually in this area? \[Unclear\] Like the birds, you know, they all moved to one area because that’s where the feed and water is and there’s nothing on the interior cause they’re all on the edges and it gives a false sense of – we’ve got so many cause we see ‘em on the road, when the fact is they’re only on the road cause that’s where food and water is and there’s nothing on the interior. So that was… KS: So the question is if we’ve done any population estimates for goats in the area? Is that correct? BL: Yes, for those hunting areas… KS: Yeah, so we’ve, um, we use camera traps to estimate goat and sheep populations in the area, um, we have an estimate from 2018 – that was about 1900 goats and then from 2020 - that’s about 2100 goats. Those estimates fall within the same \[unclear\] of each other and so it would suggest to me that the population is stable if not slightly increasing, I just, we just picked up our cameras for this season – I just sent in the memory cards to the university that is going to be doing our analysis so I’m hoping to get an analysis back before the end of the year. Hopefully, in the next maybe two months, but that is definitely something that we will continue to do especially if these rules are adopted – we’ll continue to count animals and assess how effective these rule changes at reducing the population or even keeping the population from growing so, yes, we have population estimates. Like I said I think the population at Puuwaawaa is relatively stable, um, and so well this is still just kind of the way – it’s kind of the only thing our agency has any restriction of – in regards to trying to control the population at all. BL: OK, just like I said – just speaking from personal experience like I said I’ve talked to you about it, you know, the, every year I hunt there’s less – I see less and less game and like I said last year muzzle loading, you know, I had my – filled my three tags in one day – cause that was the only day I could hunt so I just filled them up and this year they were nothing compared to what it was last year – same with the archery, you know, the areas that – I’m sure Stanley can back me up on this, you know, eight areas that we hunt all the time I’m noticing a substantial decline in the population so I’m just under the assumption that the population is moving somewhere versus, you know, I don’t know – like I said, you know there’s, from my personal experience I go hunt these areas – it’s just like the bird hunting – I hunt the area one year – there’s all these birds – I go back the next year – there’s nothing, you know? What happened? Did they just move on or is it something else so that’s my only concern and like I said, you know, this just reeks of let’s trick the hunters and do an all eradicating for us cause we can’t do it ourselves by State law, so, that’s my two cents worth on it. Thank you. 32 KS: Yeah, you guys have – I guess if you guys have alternative, you know, suggestions on ways that we can address this issue we’re very open to other options but, I mean, seeing that it got to the point of being legislated there is an issue that needs to be addressed. AG: Austin Griffey here – District 6. How are you guys taking these numbers off the cameras? Are they individually looking at every picture and noticing the same animal or are they counting numbers of goats walking by? KS: Actually it’s a new – a fairly new process, I guess, or method – but it’s – to me it’s kind of cool – it’s kind of a numbers’ thing but all of the cameras that we put out – we put about – we put 80 cameras out across about 100,000 acres so we’re counting sheep and goats. All of the cameras are programed to take a picture at the same time and we – the cameras are pointed at an object that is a certain set distance from the camera – generally something between 20-50 meters away from the camera and so you get an area that’s being sampled by the camera – if there are any animals in the picture and so poor undergraduate getting paid nothing just looks at hundreds of thousands of pictures and says whether there’s animals in the picture or not and how many animals there are and what species there are, um, but every single time that camera takes a picture it’s a snapshot and a subset of the entire area and the statistical program will generate a number or a population number for that time of day and so if it takes a picture at noon – you get a population estimate – we think there’s this many animals at noon, um, the cameras are set to take pictures every 15 minutes and so you get a population estimate at noon, another one at 12:15 another at 12:30 and it does that for about a month so you end up with 30,000 estimates and then it just averages all of those estimates into one population – that’s how the camera works, yeah… AG: So the same 10 animals could be standing in front of the cameras at those same times and it could be… KS: Well remember we’re never double counting them because they cannot be in front of two cameras at once, so, yeah, you could get the same animals at 12:00 \[unclear\]… AG: Let us say they migrating up trail the camera takes a picture then they migrate up the trail to the next camera that takes a picture same time and then they’re getting the same small group of animals. KS: Yeah, but if you sort of go back to kinda what I explained – you could take a picture of the same animal multiple times in the day but it’s giving you a population estimate at the time that the picture was taken and so you’re never going to have the same animal pictured in two cameras at the same time, right? And so at 12:00 we get a population – we believe at 12:00 there’s this many animals. We believe at 12:15 there’s this many animals – that animal might be in a different camera or whatever but I guess the idea is that it generates so many estimates across a month and it just averages those estimates to come up with one number. 33 AG: OK. Got you… KS: So you’re never double counting, um, yeah, it’s a pretty cool process. BL: Brian – District 4. OK, that brings up another question. How do you figure where the cameras go, cause, like I said, you know, I could, you know, I know where the goats are gonna be or where they’ve been historically and, you know, I can biased it to make it look like we’ve got hundreds of thousands of goats where versus I could put it in areas where I never see any goats and stack cameras up there, I mean, is there a random factor or do you guys go this looks like a different place where we got goats – let’s set a camera here or… KS: We use a random point \[unclear\]. So all the cameras are placed randomly. AA: OK. Thanks guys. Stanley you get one question, get your hand up. SM: Keep on muting me. Um, Kanalu that numbers what it – it was just from Puuwaawaa or was combined? KS: Sorry so, yeah, that 2000 – that 1900, 2100 is \[unclear\]. So if I were to \[unclear\] I would say that Puuwaawaa probably has, itself, probably has \[unclear\] and then the rest \[unclear\]. SM: I don’t know about that numbers though because what is the \[unclear\] so far I don’t know if you guys went tabulate but how much animals coming out from the hunters. KS: I don’t know how many we have this year yet, we’re not finished with the count on the take for this year. We averaged between the two areas so Puuanahulu averages about 100 goats harvested a year and Puuwaawaa is somewhere between three - four hundred, sometimes 450 in a year. So we’re kinda taking about 450 – 550 goats a year between the two areas. SM: So when I make one – was couple years ago I suggested we open Puuanahulu one more month in July and they said, oh, no, no, cannot rule change – you gotta go rule change – and then now they just – they going overboard with this everyday thing 24/7. Why not start out with, you know, six months, let’s say or 5-6 months instead of going every day of the week? KS: I think if you guys organize – reorganize together and present something like that I think it’s possible, um, we are, from our agency, we’re just trying to respond to that legislation that was created and so this is just a draft. That’s the reason I’m presenting this to you guys to get you guys’ input and we can try to work together towards something that maybe is more amenable to you guys but at the same time still 34 addresses the issue for the house, um, yeah, I’m open to discussion. Also, I guess, so that you guys understand and I didn’t explain well, um, so this rules change process is not – is on – we just had the legislation passed that allows us to do a temporary rules change, so it’s only temporary, it would only be for two years and then at the end of the two years we could either re-up it if it’s working or we could just say it’s not working – get rid of it – so this is not a permanent rules change and it’s not going through the normal rules change process – it’s just a board submittal. And so that’s why I’m talking a little \[unclear\] when you asked me before about opening like an extra month – that was before this legislation was created and so that process till the rules change is long – it needs several public meetings – this one is just a board submittal and there was legislation that allowed us to do it more quickly and so that’s why now we can go a little faster to do it. SM: Yeah, well, your boss – Dave Smith – and Tarnes and Bob – they all concerned about the goats. The goats is on private property that they getting the – you know, you go – we cannot hunt Keeaumoku – at’s all PTA cause it’s ah, you know, federal land and Waikoloa is all private land. Maybe instead of going up to the public lands maybe they should go for leasing – getting the hunting leases from this like Waikoloa, Liliuokalani Trust, wherever – where the problems is – you know what I mean? KS: Yeah, um, that’s definitely something that has to be addressed when we meet together as a task force and identifying the areas where there’s higher concentrations of goat and it’s something we got to – we would….with that task force. SM: Because we can put pressure all we like in the hunting area and they going go to the private area where, you know, it’s my concern… KS: I think it’s a valid concern, so, it’s something we’re gonna have to consider as we do the task force. AA: OK. Thank you, Stanley, thank you Kanalu… Thank you, at this time would any of the Commissioners want to make a motion to create a \[unclear\] for advising the State DOFAW on rules changes in the Puuanahulu and Puuwaawaa areas? Action: A motion was made by Brian Ley to form a committee to draft a letter stating any concerns of issues that GMAC may have with the proposed rule changes and submit letter to DOFAW, Kanalu Sproat. Seconded by Leomana Turalde. Motion carried by voice vote with one abstained. BL: Brian – District 4. I make a motion that we form a committee and we draft a letter stating any concerns or issues that we may have with the proposed rule changes and submit it to the next thing to be submitted to Kanalu. LT: Leomana – District 3. I second that motion. 35 AA: Ah, Sylvia can you make a roll call vote or, actually, any discussion? Any discussion from any of the Commissioners? CO: Chair, there’s a couple of people – Cortney – District 8 – there’s a couple of members of the public who have their hands up. AA: I think we moved on from – I cannot see anybody’s hands up – so that’s why I sorry for the public that I didn’t call you guys. So back to the question – any Commissioners have any discussions on creating the PIAG for the Puuanahulu and Puuwaawaa rules changes? OK. Sylvia, can you make a roll call vote? SW: I believe Leomana was trying to raise his hand… AA: Well, like I said, on my screen I can’t see nobody raising hands… LT: OK, you cannot see the hand raise so I’m just saying OK. SW: OK. So I’ll go ahead forward with the roll call vote. I’m going to go all face off of who I see. We’ll start first with Commissioner Turalde. LT: Aye. SW: Commissioner Okumura? CO: Aye. SW: Commissioner Duerr? RD: Um, Natalie Reynolds had her hand out… I abstain. SW: Commissioner Griffey? AG: Aye. SW: Commissioner Vice Chair Ley? BL: Aye. SW: Commissioner Chair Antonio? AA: Aye. Is it too late to have a discussion? 36 SW: You have already moved on – not to mention that the discussion for voting matters is only limited to Commissioners. AA: Right, yeah, yeah. SW: OK. OK. AA: I just wanted to know why Mr. Duerr is abstaining that’s all – he had a chance to speak but… It’s OK. Moving on… SW: It’s OK. So the motion passes with five ayes and one abstention – the remaining excused. AA: OK. Any volunteers from the Commission or from the public to be part of this PIAG group. BL: I volunteer. NR: I volunteer. AA: Brian Ley volunteers – who else is that? SM: Stanley… AA: OK. Can you guys state you guys names, yeah? One at a time please. SM: Stanley Mendes volunteer. NR: Natalie Reynolds volunteer. CP: Cindi Punihaole volunteer. AG: Austin Griffey, (District 6) volunteer. SW: You would still need one more commissioner to make this \[dogs barking\]. CO: Chair, this is Cortney – District 8 – if there are no other Commissioners I will volunteer. SW: It appears that Chair Antonio has stepped out for a moment. I’m gonna do a quick count to see if we still have quorum and if we do Vice Chairman will have to take over the meeting. Just a moment. It appears that we still have a quorum – Vice Chair Ley would you like to continue the meeting? 37 BL: OK. Was there any – Cortney was the last person – do we have anybody else that wants to be on the committee. SW: So it appears like right now we have Commissioners: Okumura and Commissioner Griffey who are on this \[unclear\] as well as three other community members – that should be sufficient to create the group. BL: Well, OK. Well I think I volunteered to be on that group too. SW: Oh, I’m sorry. So then also Commissioner Ley… Vice Chair Commissioner Ley. Barbara did you get all of that – can you give me a thumbs up – OK – she got all of that. BL: OK. One quick thing is there something we can do about, you know, the fact that Abraham then some people from the public were unable to talk – I think is very disturbing because we’re supposed be serving the people and everything else and, you know, if we have these Zoom meetings and we can’t monitor everybody and let everyone speak I think it’s an atrocity to everybody and to GMAC and everything else so is there some way we cannot have this problem at the next meeting – I know we’ve run over time and, you know, we need to close the meeting now… SW: Yes… Yes, you can add it to the agenda and allow for testimony at that time. BL: OK. I appreciate it. SW: Generally speaking, when it comes to Boards and Commissions this is the only Board and Commission that I’m aware of that actually allows the public to specifically and directly ask questions of the presenters. BL: That’s not true. But anyways… SW: But anyway, you can move this particular topic to the next agenda so that members of the public can either submit their testimonies directly to Mr. Sproat or they can submit it to the Commission as testimony or they can also just be present if it’s on the agenda and you can ask for their testimony at that time. BL: I greatly apologize for everybody who hand up and didn’t get called so, you know, we greatly appreciate it – we don’t normally have that issue when we usually get a chance to copy everybody but we’ve ran over so I guess we’re gonna have to get a motion to – in this meeting – at 4:05p. SW: I think you still need to \[unclear\] include your PIAG group. 38 BL: OK. I thought we did that and Barbara has the names of everyone that wanted to volunteer for the thing, we voted and passed it and then we asked for volunteers and we got our volunteers what else do we need to do? SW: And now you’ll move on to the next items of the agenda you would have to… BL: We’ve run out of time… SW: I understand, so what you would need to do is at least announce what those items are and the fact that they’re going to be moved to next month’s agenda. BL: OK. Well since I’m not in person and I didn’t get the agenda printed out and handed to me I have no idea what’s left to be postponed to next month so if you have that in front of you please take forward and let us know what we can push off to next week cause I know it’s a daytime and… 5. OLD BUSINESS: Deferred to next meeting. a. Discuss Laupahoehoe Boat Ramp and Seawall Investigation Committee. b. GMAC development and finalization of Draft Rules. c. Letter to Mayor Roth for approval of GMAC’s “Out Doors Day” event. Action: A motion was made by Robert Duerr to move the Old Business which is to discuss a) Laupahoehoe Boat Ramp and Seawall Investigation Committee, b) GMAC development and finalization of Draft Rules, and, c) Letter to Mayor Roth for approval of GMAC’s “Out Doors Day” event. Also, New Business, a) Chair recommendation for an HCR17 GMAC representative. The motion was seconded by Leomana Turalde. Motion carried by voice vote. RD: (Robert Duerr, District 1) Chair I’d like to make a motion – I have the agenda in front of me – I make a motion that we move forward for next month Old Business which is to discuss the Laupahoehoe Boat Ramp and Seawall Investigation Committee, b) GMAC development finalization of draft rules and c) letter to Mayor Roth for approval of GMAC’s Outdoors Day Event. And I also ask to move forward to next month – New Business – Chair recommendation for HCR 17 GMAC representative. LT: I second that motion. BL: All right, we have a motion and we have a second. Barbara do we need to do a roll call on that. SW: Yes, we would. Barbara do you want to do the roll call? I’m sorry Barbara we can’t hear you. 39 RD: Point of order. Sylvia isn’t it normally the Chair who calls for a roll order for a vote and counts the vote? SW: Usually yes, however, the practice has been for GMAC is generally Barbara, however, I’m taking over her roll \[unclear\] because it appears she’s having speaker issues. So I’ll go forward and do the roll call. Um, Commissioner Robert Duerr? RD: Aye. SW: Commissioner, Vice Chair Brian Ley? BL: Aye, but Brian, not Robert. SW: Commissioner Austin Griffey? AG: Aye. SW: Commissioner Leomana Turalde? LT: Aye. SW: Commissioner Cortney Okumura? CO: Aye. SW: There are five ayes. The rest excused. Motion passes. 6. NEW BUSINESS: Deferred to next meeting. a. Chair recommendation for an HCR17 GMAC representative. 7. ANNOUNCEMENTS: a. Fall bird hunting season runs from November 5, 2022, to January 30, 2023. b. Rule changes to lower Puna hunting areas. 8. COMMISSIONERS REPORT BY DISTRICT: Deferred to next meeting. 9. COMMITTEE REPORTS: Deferred to next meeting. 40 10. ADJOURNMENT: Action: A motion was made by Leomana Turalde to end the meeting. Seconded by Brian Ley. Motion carried unanimously by vote voice. BL: OK. Thank you. Can we have a motion to close the meeting at 4:10p? LT: Leomana – District… BL: Do we have a second? AG: I second. BL: All right, we have a motion to close the meeting at 4:10p, we have a second. Do we need to do a roll call or can we do…? All right do the roll call… SW: Because it’s a recess you can do a verbal. BL: All right, a verbal, everybody in favor of closing the meeting at 4:10p? \[The ayes have it\] BL: Any opposed? No opposed. It looks like the meeting is officially over at 4:10p. I appreciate everyone for showing up in the middle of the day and I know what a strain it is for everybody and hopefully you guys can get something else accomplished today and thank you for everybody who showed up in the middle of the day. We really appreciate it and then we hope to see your support later so Mahalo for everybody. Thank you. Meeting Ended at 4:10 pm. Next Meeting: October 18, 2022 Respectfully submitted by, Barbara Kossow Secretary 41