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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2023-07-11 Salary Commission MinutesREGULAR SESSION Salary Commission Hilo Council Chambers Hawaii County Building 25 Aupuni Street, First Floor, Room 1401 Hilo, Hawaii July 11, 2023 (Tuesday) Call to Order (Item 1) The regular meeting of the Salary Commission, County of Hawaii, was called to order at 10:00 a.m. by Chair Steven Pavao, at the Hilo Council Chambers, Hawaii County Building, 25 Aupuni Street, First Floor, Room 1401, Hilo, Hawaii, on Tuesday, July 11, 2023. Roll Call — Present Mr. Steven Pavao, Chair Mr. Dawood Y. Farahi, Vice -Chair Mr. Jules Dudoit, Member Ms. Judy Greenbaum (via ZOOM) Ms. Donala Kawa`auhau, Member Ms. Teresa T. Nakama, Member Ms. Luahiwa Namahoe, Member Mr. Sam Nelson, Member Mr. Dennis Riordan Member Mr. Danny B. Patel, Ex -Officio Member Also Present Ms. Dakota "Cody" Frenz, Deputy Corporation Counsel, Office of the Corporation Counsel Ms. Jamie Martines, HR Manager II, Human Resources Department Ms. Michele Lamkin, HR Program Specialist, Human Resources Department Ms. Glynis Yamada, Secretary -Reporter, Human Resources Department Commission members will participate in-person, via ZOOM, or by teleconference. Members of the public may attend this meeting either in-person at the meeting location or via ZOOM. Salary Commission Call to Order (Item 1) July 11, 2023 CHR. PAVAO: Okay, we'll go ahead and call the meeting to order. My name's Steve Pavao, the Chair—and we'll take rollcall starting on the far end here—members? MR. NELSON: I'm Nelson, District 1. MS. NAMAHOE: Luahiwa Namahoe, District 3. MR. FARAHL Dawood Farahi, 5. MS. KAWA`AUHAU: Donala Kawa`auhau, District 4 MR. RIORDAN: Dennis Riordan, District 6. MR. DUDOIT: Commissioner Jules Dudoit, District 7. MS. NAKAMA: Teresa Nakama, District 8. CHR. PAVAO: And joining us by ZOOM—you're muted, I think. MS. GREENBAUM: Judy Greenbaum, District 9. CHR. PAVAO: Thank you very much. MS. FRENZ: Also present, for the record, we have Ex -Officio Member -Acting Director, Danny Patel; myself, Deputy Corporation Counsel Cody Frenz; and our Secretary, Glynis—also, present. CHR. PAVAO: Thank you very much. Statements from the Public (Item 2) CHR. PAVAO: "Statements from the Public" under agenda items. MS. YAMADA: There are none. CHR. PAVAO: Okay—none. Page 2 Salary Commission Approval of Minutes (Item 3) June 8, 2023 July 11, 2023 CHR. PAVAO: We'll go to the approval of the minutes for the June 8h meeting. Everybody got a copy of the minutes they were circulated and posted. Any questions or corrections? If not, can I get a motion to accept the minutes? MS. NAKAMA: Teresa Nakama—move to accept the minutes of our last meeting. CHR. PAVAO: Okaya second? MR. NELSON: Second. CHR. PAVAO: Okay. It's been moved and seconded that we approve the minutes of the June 8, 2023, meeting. All those in favor signify by saying, aye. Any opposed? The voice vote was as follows: AYES: Commissioners Farahi, Dudoit, Greenbaum, Kawa`auhau, Nakama, Namahoe, Nelson, Riordan, and Chair Pavao – 9 OPPOSED: None. ABSENT & EXCUSED: None. CHR. PAVAO: The meeting minutes have been approved. MS. FRENZ: And just for record purposes, the second was by Commissioner Nelson. Communication(s) (Item 4) CHR. PAVAO: And any "Communications" no communications. Unfinished Business (Item 5) A. Election Of Salary Commission Chair And Vice -Chair (Note: At Its Meeting Held On June 8, 2023, Commissioner Steven Pavao Was Elected And Unanimously Approved To Serve As Chair. Although He Was Absent From The Meeting, He Had Expressed An Interest In Serving In Any Capacity, To Include Chairperson, Via An Email Which Was Circulated To The Commissioners. Commissioner Dawood Farahi Was Elected And Unanimously Approved As Vice -Chair. He Was Absent From The Meeting And The Commission Was Uncertain Whether He Would Be Interested In Serving In This Capacity. This Matter Was Tabled To Its Next Meeting To Give Commissioner Farahi An Opportunity To Express His Interest In Serving As Vice -Chair) Page 3 Salary Commission July 11, 2023 CHR. PAVAO: So, we move on to "Unfinished Business" the election of the Commission Chair and Vice -Chair. At the meeting of June 8 the Commission elected myself asunanimously, as the Chair. Although I wasn't able to attend the meeting, but I accepted the role and the Commission's vote. Commissioner Farahi was elected unanimously as the Vice -Chair but was absent. And I think the Commission didn't have the opportunity to have any dialogue about whether he accepted the position as vice -chair. MR. FARAHL (Inaudible.) CHR. PAVAO: Okay. So, noted. MR. FARAHL Accepted. CHR. PAVAO: So, Commissioner Farahi has accepted the role as vice -chair. B. Creation Of Permitted Interaction Groups For Salary Commission Inquiries (Note: At Its Meeting Held On June 8, 2023, This Matter Was Tabled For Further Discussion) CHR. PAVAO: And we'll move on to the creation of Permitted Interaction Groups for Salary Commission inquiries. MS. FRENZ: This is DCC Cody. Did everybody have an opportunity to consider the information discussed and/or reviewed in the minutes regarding whether or not this Commission wants to create a Permitted Interaction Group? We tabled this conversation. MS. GREENBAUM: Yes. MS. FRENZ: Go ahead, Commissioner Greenbaum. MS. GREENBAUM: Yes. I had a chance to review it. MS. FRENZ: Excellent. CHR. PAVAO: Thank you, anybody has any comments? MS. FRENZ: Where is the Commission at? CHR. PAVAO: Anybody have any comments or any MR. NELSON: I'm not sure if we're ready to set one up, yet. But, I mean, I'll defer to anybody else. I think, from what I took from the last meeting (inaudible)we need to send out letters to all the department heads to, kind of, get their—solicit their input. So, that's one thing we got to do. That's the first action. Page 4 Salary Commission July 11, 2023 And I think, originally, it was brought up that that would be a group—would setup to do that but I think we could do one generic letter to all the departments would be my recommendation. I mean, if it's going to be custom letters and that would require a group, but other than that— sending hatsending out a letter, if it's a generic one, I think, as a group we can do that. So, I don't know that we're necessarily at a place where we need a special group, yet. MS. FRENZ: And this is DCC Cody. You all should have received from Ms. Yamada, our secretary, from Glynis—sample letters, and/or correspondence that has occurred in the past between the commission and various department heads or appointing authorities. MS. GREENBAUM: Yes. CHR. PAVAO: Yes. MS. GREENBAUM: I actually liked the this is Judy Greenbaum, District 9. I think the special committee help expedite and will help us in groups to narrow in on certain departments rather than trying to look at it as a collective whole. If we look at it as a smaller group and present it as a whole—makes better sense to me. CHR. PAVAO: Any other comments? Yeah, I think (inaudible) what Commissioner Greenbaum is saying is true that it's going to take some homework and labor work in a smaller group probably more effective to do that—and then bring the information back to the Commission. To have a large body like this would take a lot of time and dialogue to make those kinds of informed decisions. MS. NAMAHOE: Commissioner Namahoe. So, in reading the minutes from last month—and I apologize for not being here—while I do understand the wisdom Ms. Greenbaum just mentioned about the focus versus the collective, in terms of how to approach it. I only want to caution that sometimes the opposites going to be valid—meaning that if we're all facing the same economic pressures and just looking at the minutes here of the police commission of an approved budget versus a requested salary without having all that informationI do get concerned about scope (inaudible)—and I just want to throw that out there as a caution. I don't know if I made myself clear? MS. GREENBAUM: No, that makes sense. And—this is Commissioner Judy Greenbaum, District 9 -that does make sense. We're going to have to do our due diligence and make sure that we obtain all of the proper information when we're meeting in small groups. Page 5 Salary Commission July 11, 2023 And I think we would defer toI don't know if it would be Glynis, who can help direct us in how to obtain some of the information that we're going to need? MS. FRENZ: This is DCC Cody. So, I think, Commissioner Greenbaum, it really depends on what information this Commission would also like versus what it already has received. So, we can continue to make those requests through secretary through Glynis Yamada. And, preferably, as I was indicating last hearing, it'd be an email. We do have the threads that she sends to you guys with that include myself, Director—Acting Director Patel, Emarie Carvalho, and Glynis—if everybody uses that thread and you hit "reply all" asking for certain information, we can make sure that we don't all do double work trying to obtain that. And then, ultimately, when appropriate, disseminate it to everyone via blind copy emails—right to protect against Sunshine violations. So, we can continue to do that as long as this Commission is actively working and seeking out information to decide what actions, if any, it wants to take. As far as just to circle back to Commissioner Namahoe—for letter drafting purposes, this Commission has received samples. I think, ultimately, getting those letters out in an agreed format that this Commission can agree on, will at least allow Chair Pavao to sign off on an approved letter by this Commission, that can be disseminated to all necessary and relevant appointing authorities or department heads via our secretary and/or Director Patel to, at least, get those out. Because we're going to have to afford those directors or appointing authorities time to meet, if it's a Commission, for example, they meet once a month, hopefully, right—so there will be at least a month—two-month delay before you may get something back depending on meeting schedules, so that this Commission can decide whether or not they want more. I can tell you, for example, at the police commission hearing recently—and we have another meeting next Friday they wanted to potentially come before you and testify as to why they got to where they got—and we had one commissioner who wanted to, in fact, increase the requested amount. So, it may be, and likely would be a work -in -progress for all of the department heads and/or appointing authorities. So starting that request for a position from the relevant people in charge, so to speak, right—appointing authorities or department headsI think is kind of critical to get that conversation going, and then you guys will decide what else you need in light of the request that you may receive. It may be that you don't get any back, right. But a bare minimum you're required to consult and confer. So, that I think you might want to consider as a first step. MS. GREENBAUM: I think that makes sense. This is like a dialogue, right? MS. FRENZ: Yes. Page 6 Salary Commission July 11, 2023 MR. NELSON: So, I would suggest that as well. I think we (inaudible) but we got to agree on a letter today, to send out—and then, basically, when we get them back, then we can decide if we want to breakout in sub -groups to look at the individual departments that would be the time to do it. Now, it's kind of a blast to get the data, so we can collect all the data and then parse it out how to work it. MR. FRENZ: That was Commissioner Nelson, for the record. Sorry, I apologize to be the stickler, but just to make—Glynis doesn't know voices yet, but if we could all say "Commissioner" with your last name. Again, we don't need district but thank you for—if you want to include that feel free. So, that was Commissioner Nelson, Glynis—and this is DCC Cody. Sorry about that. Thank you, everyone. MS. GREENBAUM: Commissioner Judy Greenbaum. The sample letter that Glynis sent out to everyone that I apologize, I spoke prematurely now. It doesn't outline the items that we're looking for and that's something we should discuss, so that it can be embodied in the letter to all of the different departments. Is that what we want to do as a Commission with the letter? MS. NAMAHOE: Commissioner Namahoe requesting clarification—where in our binders will we find the sample letter? MS. YAMADA: It's in your green folders. MS. NAMAHOE: Okay. MS. FRENZ: DCC Cody. Everyone, if you want to take a look at your green folders. Within there, there should be you have several documents on your right-hand side—mine was on the right—it's got a paper clip and it says, "Sample" typed in at the top right. It's an email from Secretary Yamada to all of the necessary and appropriate appointing authorities and their department heads. It says, "Aloha, everyone, on behalf of the Hawaii County Salary Commission..." Attached thereto are also some letters as samples that were provided. Could everyone find that? MS. GREENBAUM: Yes. Commissioner Greenbaum. The letter is a blanket letter and I feel that if we do a bullet point of just items that we're looking for just simple items that each of the departments could provide will help us to make an informed decision on how to move forward with that information. Could Glynis or Dakota—could you provide us withI don't know which departments to go to. But, I mean, we would probably want some information and maybe outline in the letter—would communicate to the different department what we're looking for and they can provide that to us. Where, with this sample letter, it only talks about—it doesn't talk about any specific forms. Page 7 Salary Commission July 11, 2023 MS. FRENZ: Yes. This is DCC Cody. So, part of the paper clip item that you should all, hopefully, be looking at—on my paper clip, the very last page, is a list of all of the people that you will be required to confer with, so you know who needs to get this. And then, Commissioner Greenbaum, what I can do along with Glynis is, I can take notes. So, for example, if you all can discuss today—here are the things that we want to include in our letter. I can take those notes and work with Glynis and/or Director Patel to formalize that. And then, if this entire Commission decides on these are the things that we want to ask for then I can formalize that in a letter with Chair Pavao, who can then disseminate that with Glynis' assistance. So, if today, you guys know, for example—and it could may very well be that we have to send a follow-up letter depending on what you get back from various departments heads or appointing authorities for additional information. But, if we can list out some of the things that you'd like to have now, the more the merrier. And if you decide that you want more down the road, we can cross that bridge. But these are the 18 different department heads or appointing authorities that we need to confer with. And if the original email that Glynis sent back on March of 2019, if you guys are all okay with those items and want to add to them, let's include those. And I can work with Glynis, Director Patel, and Chair Pavao to formalize that in a written request. MR. PATEL: Chair, if I can this is Acting Director Patel. So, what I'm hearing based on the discussion is that the Commissioners want to, at least, have some baseline information to figure out how they want to move forward. I think for right now, we're on agenda Item number 5 regarding creation of the permitted interaction groups. If we're moving on to Item number 6 to discuss the baseline information, then perhaps we can table the existing agenda item to be called at a later date—if the Commission decides to go that route then we move on to agenda Item number 6. You do have some information that was provided to all of you already. You might consider discussing the information you currently have and then having that discussion about the additional information you want to ask for. Then that would help inform the letter that goes out to all the appointing authorities for the additional information. MS. NAMAHOE: Commissioner Namahoe agrees with that. CHR. PAVAO: If we can have a motion or consensus on creating an interaction group, we can table that for now and come back to it later, I guess. So, we could move on to the next Item number 6 on the agenda, which is discussion about the appropriate action. Page 8 Salary Commission July 11, 2023 Okay, so I guess we'll have a motion to table 5 yeah5B on the agenda, which is the creation of the permitted interaction groups. If somebody make a motion to table? MR. NELSON: So—Nelson—will make a motion to defer that to our next meeting. CHR. PAVAO: Is there a second? MR. RIORDAN: Mr. Riordan seconds that. CHR. PAVAO: Okay. So, it's been moved and second. Any discussion? Hearing none, then we'll go ahead and vote on the motion to table the permitted interaction group discussion until the next meeting. All in favor signify by saying, aye. Any opposed? The voice vote was as follows: AYES: Commissioners Farahi, Dudoit, Greenbaum, Kawa`auhau, Nakama, Namahoe, Nelson, Riordan, and Chair Pavao — 9 OPPOSED: None. ABSENT & EXCUSED: None. CHR. PAVAO: Passed unanimously. New Business (Item 6) Review Of Existing Compensation Plan To Include Discussion And Consideration Of Ideas For Adiustments To Future Salaries Of Executives And Officials CHR. PAVAO: Okay, we'll go on to Item number 6 on the agenda, "New Business." So, you should have all received that as well from Glynis. MR. RIORDAN: ICommissioner Riordan. I've watched some of the salary commission meetings from Honolulu and they had, like, the corporation counsel had—lawyer came in—and he had all of this information from the mainland of cities that were the same size as Honolulu, what they were paying their attorneys, how many people were involved, and everything. And it was really interesting. And I think that's what we're asking for in these letters is for them to tell us why the parks and recreation guy should get a raise or why the corp. counsel should get a raise. And I feel like the questions that we're asking are good and that we, somehow or another, let them know that we're open to them to come in and make a presentation to us also, if they'd like to. Because it was you could see that guy was trying to get his people raises and he presented evidence that we may just say, "Okay, they should get a raise." MS. GREENBAUM: I like that. I agree. Commissioner Greenbaum agrees. Page 9 Salary Commission July 11, 2023 MS. NAMAHOE: Commissioner Namahoe. I have a thought here. First, thank you very much for these examples of letters that were sent out previously. I am reminded of the desk audit thought process, which isin essence, what we're all being tasked to do. We're auditing each none—how do I say this—none bargaining—yes— MALE: argainingyes MALE: And unit. MS. NAMAHOE: —and unit—right. So, I almost wish there was more formal language that would pair with the email or the cover letter, because as much as we'd like to send a generic one, it would be tailored to—"This is, as we understand your current job description, we'd like you to be able to defend yourself against it"—right from the jump. So, if we look at the top letter as an example, which would be the top letter would be from Glynis to this sample, "Aloha, everyone, you have six points: What are the primary duties and responsibilities of the agency head"I would rather have a matrix in front of them to say, "What are the primary duties that you're seeing listed here that you have to go above and beyond to do?" I'd almost like to say, "To give you a chance to succeed for the time that we are requiring of you to apply to this process, I'd like you to say this is your job description. Now, here you go, pen and paper, redo this matrix for us." And I don't know if that's an unrealistic request right from the jump. But my gut instinct is if I were sitting in the department head that's what I'd like to do from Day 1 -to be able to say as the fire chief or police chief, it says that we need to do these many ambulance runs or these many calls. But the reality is, we have these many more fires that take place, so there's even more so the need to do intra -agency support seeking with the Federal and StateI'm going down the rabbit hole trying come up the example but, you know where I'm going. MS. GREENBAUM: Right. Yeah. MS. NAMAHOE: So, is there the question then, is there a desk audit—is there any process that we have in previous paperwork that asks department heads to desk audit or defend against a current job description? Has that ever been done before? Have we ever seen examples of that? FEMALE: No. MS. NAMAHOE: No? FEMALE: Yeah. MS NAMAHOE: Oh, that was quick. MS. FRENZ: This is DCC Cody. The other difference I see, too, is the sample that you have here and what you're talking about, Commissioner Namahoe, is requiring the person—subject to a potential raise or decreaseright, to kind of defend what they think they are deserving. Whereas the Charterso, I go back to the appointing authority for this Commission is the Page 10 Salary Commission July 11, 2023 CharterHawaii County Charter, requires actually the communication to be with the department head or the appointing authority. So, the mayor for the people he appoints, right—those would be everyone on this list 1 through 14, for example. He appoints those individuals. And then, all of the people that are appointed by boards or commissions are 15, 16, 17, and 18. So, big difference between asking—let me give a reality—my boss, the Corporation Counsel, to defend what she does and what she thinks she deserves may put that person in an uncomfortable or awkward position versus the mayor who appoints the corporation counsel, right. So, technically, the Charter requires communication and consultation with the appointing authorities—not the actual recipient of a potential raise. Not to say you cannot do that. I just want to point out what the Charter requires by law, right, to make sure we fulfill that requirement. And maybe this Commission consider do you want contacts with the person that would be the recipient of a potential pay increase? It begs the question whether or not those people will feel comfortable to come out and advocate for why I deserve "x." MS. NAMAHOE: Namahoe, again. So, this is what I'm hearing and correct me where I'm wrong. The Charter requires that we reach out to the appointing authority, so we're going to stick with the police commission as the example. The letter then wouldn't go to the police chief, it would go to the police commission. However, the Charter does not preclude us or limit us from reaching out to the police chief as well. MS. FRENZ: Right. MS. NAMAHOE: And if—while it is important to reach out to the commission, I would almost expect—and I could be wrong here but I would almost expect that the one who would know the job description best to be able to defend it, would be the police chief. MS. FRENZ: Correct. MS. NAMAHOE: I have not this discussion has made—solidified the idea ofI still say we send it to the person that may potentially receive the increase because he or she would know that job best. Especially the areas, the gray that suck up time and resources and skillsets in order to do that job and to run that department and meet that budgetary needs. MS. FRENZ: This is DCC Cody. So, I think that's an excellent example of making sure that you're gathering the necessary information the actual work expectations, the work demands, for example that would go into a consideration that this Commission may have on potential pay Increases. I would just ask you all to keep in mind, and not necessarily demand or expect, that the individual potential recipients be required to advocate for themselves. They may not all feel Page 11 Salary Commission July 11, 2023 comfortable—and we saw this in Honolulu—City and County where people were saying, "I don't feel comfortable talking about what I'm deserving"—so to speak, right. So, I know—and I won't say which one but I have other clients that do not feel comfortable coming in to say, "I deserve `x'." So that may be—maybe they will. I think our police chief will, for example. So, everyone is going to be different but I think affording the opportunity, maybe—do you want to do that same letter to each? Do you want to do a letter to the actual potential recipient—the department head—"Tell us how your job duties. Here's a copy of your position description." Your job class specs., for example, if the appointing authorities have those as well. I don't know the answer to that—Danny, our acting director, may be able to chime in. But tell us how much time you actually spend on these things and maybe we have a separate letter to the appointing authority that says, "Tell us what you think this person deserves a raise" and/or what. Maybe we have two, maybe we have one just throwing that out there. MS. NAMAHOE: Okay, so Namahoe—final point of clarity. The goal is, with this initial letter, is to this is not the final official letter. In the introductory solicitation, which is what we're doing right now, I would likeI suggest that we include that opportunity to all of the department head from the get -go. That allows them the luxury to choose where they are comfortable or in how they wish to reply. But since all of us know that this is the work ahead, as important as it is to reach out to the commissions and the governing authorities, they should also be allowed that voice that they can choose to use or not. Thank you. MR. FARAHL Commissioner Farahi5'. I read all the material that Glynis sent I don't have a paper printer, though. I've been on this kind of a commission about five times in the last 30 years—in New Jersey, in Missouri, and New York. I think there are—with your permission, Mr. Chair, I thought a lot about it and I said, "Don't take too much of their time, they have their own system"—and the system is what it is"Don't try to confuse anybody." But, in reality, we're doing some stuff that really isn't our job in terms of our expertise to do it. Even if you had somebody sitting over there explaining, "I deserve this because I do this" you go back to the comparative index of how much the police chief in Maui makes. It doesn't solve anything. There are essentially three different things involved. One, is the annual cost of living increase. Obviously, this County hasn't done that since 2019. Two, some sort of an increment or a performance increase. The unions and the collective bargaining have increments in their system as part of their negotiation—Step 1, Step 4, Step 3 3,000 for that step and 2,000 for that step. Page 12 Salary Commission July 11, 2023 And the third is to actually set the salary for the non -unit manager employee—whether—that actually is very technical that human resources people could actually do that properly to the comparison data, through the job involvement. For instance, the County—like, Maui is not comparable to this island. It's the size of the State of Connecticut. I come from New Jersey and I did this as a chair of the commission in Union County. Union County is about the size of Puna District—total—and has a population of 550,000 people, and an operating budget of over a billion. So—and there are also commissions from here to the wazoo. The waste management commission, the animal control commission, police commission, and Cousin Larry's commission—and there's a whole bunch of them. Now what do you, actually, want to do? If you say, let's say, all these components put together—Mr. Chairman, stop me if I'm (inaudible) you. CHR. PAVAO: Go ahead. MR. FARAHL The police chief here deserves a $25,000.00 increase in their salary. Well, that happens to be 17 percent just guessing. And next time, when they're negotiating with one of the (inaudible) collective bargaining agency—and says, "Well, we're only asking 11 percent. You give them 17 percent. That's two different things they're apples and oranges and they don't match. Two different things. Now, the collective bargaining agent gets, let's say, 3 percent every year plus the steps and all of that—and it actually is (inaudible). But as a negotiating, bargaining thing they also serve as the chief executive officer of university with a two -and -a -half billion dollar budget. Same thing as professors in the bargaining unit and the ones that are not—(inaudible)—they say, "They got that. I didn't get anything." So, all the communication that we need to do has to somehow fit into what it is that we're planning to do—we recommend it in the County, accepted that—that let's take the cost of living and the increment off the table. The cost of living is a number that each commission, for instance, in this case the mayor has so many department heads the mayor recommends that everybody gets a 3 percent cost of living annually. So, it eliminates that job for us every year or whoever (inaudible) that. The second thing is to create a performance-based system. A very simple one from 0, 1, 2, 3. Zero means "You're not getting a raise," `cause you're not good; 1 means that, "Eh, you get this"; 2 means, "You're pretty good" but not a superstar; and 3 means, "You get that"—and that's within the range of the collective bargaining agent. So, if the top step is 3,500, then 3 gets 3,500; 2,500 that's—whoever is the chief executive officerI'm just using the mayor as an example then the mayor—one—does the department heads, the department heads that does the other unit people and so on. And at the end it comes to the actual elective body—and so, "Okay, Page 13 Salary Commission July 11, 2023 this is the number. This is how we did that. Approved"—or not approved—once a year. That's off the table. The third thing is actually a technical thing that no matter what information they give us, our judgement is faulty. (Inaudible) faulty. And it's just like"Okay, wow, I spent so much time on Hilo and I'm nowhere home till 10 o'clock" that's (inaudible) or something similar to that, that they do it on the basis of some criteria and on the basis of some comparison, and brings it to this Commission. First, they have to go through their own commission and then bring it to this Commission and say, "Okay, now, we are proposing this for the police chief," which is not the same as the public works director. I come here using the Stainback Highway. It has more potholes in it then the entire State of New Jersey. And they spend all this time they come go, they come go, they come go, they come go now, if the public works director come—and I don't mind whether it's (inaudible) or not— and otand ask for one penny of a raise—I'll vote "no." Because there is no management. There's no work (inaudible) system and I see that every single day. Well, this morning, actually, they were there. They're not pounding the gravel that they put in. They put the gravel, they move on. They put the—and then comes another truck and takes the whole gravel that they put in, (inaudible) but more of the hole that wasn't there before. And they've been doing this for the last two years that I've been here and it's not usable. Has anybody been on Stainback? FEMALE: Yes. MALE: Yeah. MS. GREENBAUM: Yes. MR. FARAHL Okay. So, my judgement is totally flawed because of the problem (inaudible). And I give you one other example of (inaudible). If I apply to get a permit to build a house, nine months is excellent; one-year is average; 14 months is forever, right. So, if the person building—department person—which probably part of public works, right—comes and sits over there, he ain't getting nothing from me. It's for two reasons. One, that (inaudible) UCR the Unified Construction Code there are rules. You need this, you don't need this, you need this, you don't need this—in Elizabeth, New Jersey, where I lived there's a law and then an ordinance associated with that law that if they don't give me approval within 20 days and I have the signature of the architect who verifies that they followed the zoning laws and all of that I start building. And the city could come and scream from here to eternity and there is nothing they can do. And the second thing about that is, it is just plain—for lack of saying it—not saying it in a better word—stupid. For me, to not build a house and provide the county with the taxes. So, if I'm taken you 12 months to give me a permit and another year -and -a -half to build the house you deprived yourself from the tax revenue associated with the number of months that you delayed Page 14 Salary Commission July 11, 2023 this for nothing. And if you ask them what you did—at one time they say, "Oh, it's very complicated." I say, "No, it's not." It's three very simple things. Is this lot zoned to have a house on it? Yes or no. There's nothing else. If it is, okay, then what is the building construction code boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And (inaudible) or whoever that person is that makes all the money to put the stamp on it—well, he's supposed to go through the zoning laws and the planning board regulations and make sure that it's there, right? Get this thing on it, get the 3,500 bucks, right? Yeah. MS. NAMAHOE: Commissioner Namahoe. Dr. Farahi, thank you so much. Because what you're saying here, you're giving us clear examples of our prejudice—our lack of base awareness and the word that I wished I used earlier but is applicable now which is the risk management. The math of risk management—what we know measured against the unknowns and making sure that the decisions that we make are mindful of our prejudices and our inabilities—our various and collective inabilities, to make the best decision that we can and, yet we must make the best decision that we can regardless. I thank you because you took us down that—those examples. And so, although the question at - hand is the information that we send out—the letters that we send out to the various governing bodies, my question for the Commission is are we any closer to the direction that we want to go in with the letters that we do send out—more similar than different as Mr.as Commissioner Nelson mentioned. That's my question to all of us. MS. NAKAMA: Commissioner Teresa Nakama. I concur with you. But I have a question, there's a communication dated July 7 coming from the Acting Director of HR Patel, and this was done back in 2018 with proposals of increases. Yeah. It's a communication July 7 and I think some of work was done back in 2018. So, if you all could look for this particular communication? It says to Steven Pavao, Chair, and members of the Salary Commission from Acting Director Danny Patel, Department of Human Resources. I don't know, it was in my folder. MR. PATEL: It should be in your green folderI'm sorry—Acting Director Patel. It should be in your green folders, it's communication dated July 7, 2023, and it includes attachments regarding department head and deputy salaries, as far as their highest paid civil service subordinate. MR. NELSON: That was something I asked for just to show the inversions between the lowest person's—who reported to a higher person because there's some places with a gap. So, I was justI asked for this information so we could see the inversion. This is Nelson. MS. NAKAMA: Okay. I was just wondering if all the members have reviewed it, and if Chairman Pavao could explain it to us, what we're looking at? Page 15 Salary Commission July 11, 2023 CHR. PAVAO: Yeah. Basically, what it is, is that there are—especially the excluded management, which I am, I work with the State of Hawaii and I am in an excluded management position. They have a lot of excluded management positions—salaried employees in the County that are making more than the deputy directors. Even my own salary, I'm an EMS, I know that I make more than almost all the County department directors, which (inaudible). MS. NAKAMA: Well, excuse me CHR. PAVAO: So, it's just getting equity with the pay because you get subordinates making more than the supervisors. We had the same problem with the current police department. They can't hire a deputy chief because all the assistant chiefs and the majors make more than the deputy chief. MS. NAKAMA: Okay. But what I want is get back to the communication so you can explain it to me. It says—Corp. Counsel department head salary 153,228; deputy salary 145,968; and it says highest paid subordinate salary as of July 1st, '23 is 83,388. Are we looking at these as increases or this is what they are being paid? MR. PATEL: Chair, if I can. This is Acting Director Patel. So, to answer your question Commissioner Nakama, that is the current salary of the highest paid civil service subordinate. So what you see in the third column there, those are the current salaries for the highest civil service subordinate for each department. That those numbers do not include the salaries for appointed subordinates. The reason being that there should really never be an inversion because the appointing authority takes that salary, essentially. So, if we go back to what the Commission's charge is under the Charter, right, and you have it in your green folders as well. If you want to look at it while I go through it. Turn to page 204-1. We're looking at the procedures for salary adjustments. So, under the Charter, the Commission reviews and shall compensate elected and appointed officials, directors and deputy directors so that their total salaries and benefits have a reasonable relationship to compensation in the public and private sectors. So, to Commissioner Namahoe's point and also Commissioner Farahi, we need to get a baseline idea of what we're looking at, and we may have our own prejudices but at that point, if part of what you're considering is reasonable for a department head vis-a-vis the civil service subordinate is their duties. At that point, perhaps, you could invite those appointing authorities to come and then you'd have an opportunity to ask your questions and have them establish what the connection is. So, if we start with the charge of the Commission, you have some baseline data in this communication that we're currently looking at. Those show some inversion for some departments. Then, if you turn to the second attachment, Commissioner Nelson also requested Page 16 Salary Commission July 11, 2023 information regarding the cumulative percentage increase for each bargaining unit. That's what the second attachment is. For purposes of the Salary Commission, you're generally looking at BU13. BU1 is, of course, the blue-collar; BU2 blue-collar supervisors, BU3BU4 all white-collar; BU13 is the professional and scientific unit. So, what the information tells you there is from July 1, 2018, through July 1st, of 2023, the percentage increase was 12.43 percent. July 1, 2024, there will be another increase. MS. NAKAMA: Excuse me. Teresa Nakama here. Instead of using codes when you do a report to us, could we have numbers instead? Because it'll take me an education class to decipher the codes that you use. Instead of using codes the 3.2 percent increase of what? 1.2 percent of what? What are we—what salary are we looking at that I have to go back and forth instead of stating, right there and then, so I can look at it—right there and then. It's 3.2 percent of $86,000.00. CHR. PAVAO: Not everybody in bargaining unit 13 has the same salary. There are thousands of different salaries—it's based on step, when they got hired you have to figure 15-20 pages of salaries. MS. NAKAMA: You can average. You know what I mean? You can give it an average. I mean, it's likeI understood when I gave a sample from the website and that's the one we have in our folder, I guess. I can see the numbersState, City and County, Hawaii, Maui, Kauai. A sample like this gives us a picture. I don't I find it difficult to comprehend that we can't do something simple. Give us a number and not a code. MS. FRENZ: Unfortunately, we can't. The numbers are so there's too many for that to be practical. There's just too many employees MS. NAKAMA: You gave us a sample of this. MS. FRENZ: That's because those are appointing authorities CHR. PAVAO: This is different because this is one position, one person. MS. FRENZ: Yeah. CHR. PAVAO: In bargaining unit 13 you got hundreds of employees with all different salary schedules because based on when they were hired. MS. NAKAMA: Yeah. CHR. PAVAO: So, you would have to look at hundreds of salaries. Page 17 Salary Commission July 11, 2023 MS. FRENZ: And we're not looking at theirs either, right. We're looking at—the example that you're referring to, Commissioner Nakama, just gives everyone here an example of how the people the civil service employees continue to get every year, the step increases. So, every year, I know if I'm a BU13 employee, regardless of what my current salary is at I know that I will get in the year 2018, 2.25 percent more. The next year, I know I'm going to get 2.15 percent more and so on and so forth. Versus our—back to the first page that has the numbers. These people, they don't get any increases at all. This is all they get every year. They get no increases. So, that's all that's trying to show you is MS. NAKAMA: Right. I understand what you're saying that the increases is set and we have no voting power over the automatic increases that they get. CHR. PAVAO: That's collective bargaining that the unions (inaudible). MS. NAKAMA: Right. But my quesmy other question is, are these just base salary not including benefits? MS. FRENZ: We're not dealing this is Cody—we're not dealing with benefits at all. In the so when you say benefits, I think we talked last month about we have different compensation, we have insurance—we're not dealing with any of that. We're talking base—social security, right— we're ightwe're talking base salary or salary without any of the other benefits. So, we're not talking benefits at all. Everyone is entitled to the same benefits—some get a little bit more when you talk about the type of bargaining unit or—police and fire have exemptions we're not getting into any of those benefits. MS. NAKAMA: I understand that. In order for us to have good employees across-the-board in every department, that benefits should be considwe should have it, at least, in the back of our mind that it's base salary plus benefits. But then, like, the police and fire back in 2016 they changed through whatever process they went through—we no longer have new recruits because they don't include family benefits. At the last recruiting for the firemen, they had six in the school of new recruits instead of having 24 and a dozen and more up to 24 recruits. We only had 6 because there was no family benefits. I mean, even if we don't consider benefits, we should have it in our back of our mind that these salary base salaries—give us some basic knowledge of, does it include benefits or not. MS. FRENZ: They all include benefits. This is Cody. Every employee that joined the County of Hawaii, the benefits are there across-the-board, and that's an ERS function. MS. NAKAMA: There's benefits for the employee—yes. MS. FRENZ: That is correct. Page 18 Salary Commission July 11, 2023 MS. NAKAMA: But not for the family. MS. FRENZ: And that's our law, unfortunately. We can't— MS. an't MS. NAKAMA: Yeah. MS. FRENZ: this Commission doesn't have any authorityI don't mean that disrespectfully. CHR. PAVAO: It's in the County Charter. MS. FRENZ: I mean, under the Charter, by law, even myself, for example—cannot try to negotiate better ERS Employment Retirement Service benefits then my counterpart, for example. MS. NAKAMA: I understand that, but we need to keep that in the back of our heads when looking at base salary increases or decreases that whether—like, the firemen and police are separate from the rest of the County. I understand that. And then, because of what happened way back 2012-2016—they no longer have family benefits, that's why we don't have recruits large number of recruits today. MS. NAMAHOE: This is Commissioner Namahoe. I just want to do quick housekeeping—so much dialogue just happened. I need you to introduce yourself, sir, I need you to introduce yourself, ma'am—I need you to introduce yourself. So much just happened. Please everyone if I were Glynis I'd go nuts typing this all up. Mahalo. CHR. PAVAO: Thank you. MS. NAKAMA: I apologize—Teresa Nakama. CHR. PAVAO: So, I think that we need to be cognizant of benefits but it's not something that the Charter gives us any authority over so. So, other things we need to do, I think, in the interest of what we're tasked with is to focus on what the Charter mandates that this Commission does, which is to consider salaries for the appointed and elected officials in the County. MS. GREENBAUM: Commissioner Greenbaum. CHR. PAVAO: Yes. MS. GREENBAUM: The inversions are not right because if you got a line employee the highest line employee is being compensated more than the executive then you're not going to find qualified individuals. Why would they want that responsibility? So—and they had not had a raise since 2018, and inflation has been up quite a bit since. So, I know, Dr. Farahi, you had provided us with a lot of information—and I agree with you. Page 19 Salary Commission July 11, 2023 However, I think we have to bring up the departments to a level that makes sense first. They haven't had any increases since 2018. They're working at a deficit in many of these departments. I know we're trying to pinpoint the items that we're looking for from each of the departments, so that we can make an informed decision. But when we have an inversion, that to me is kind of common sense that they should receive some sort I mean, the head department shouldn't be making less than the highest paid—and I'm referring "subordinate." CHR. PAVAO: Yes, Dr. Farahi. MR. FARAHL Mr. Chairman—Commissioner Farahi. Unless we separate and impeding ourselves that three different component of this Charter assignment, we're going to spin and spin and spin and get nowhere. If you look at the charts and find that there is a subordinate that's making more money than their supervisor, I could tell you that—yeah, that's true. I was a university president and I had a professor that got a (inaudible) grant that was making 50 percent more than I did. And the County of (inaudible) medical director—should call him the autopsy guy—was making twice as much as the county manager. These things are normal to look into that, but I think we should get out of (inaudible) because the market forcing (inaudible). We need to decideI have grandpa duties, so I have to leave you what are the kind of things that we want to focus on? Are we focusing on this is how much this position is worth or how much this person got to get paid. Two different things. Two different processes. Two different (inaudible). MS. FRENZ: So, let me jump in. MR. FARAHL And we could be here forever. MS. FRENZ: Dr. Farahi this is Deputy Corporation Counsel Cody Frenz. These are excellent—thank you for getting us back on track. I want to clarify, I think what you were just talking about, Dr. Farahi, is tied into your point three about merits when we look at the person versus the job. I want to clarify for everyone here today, we're looking at the job. Not the person. So, if you think that you are making a decision as to the current deputy or current director of the public works you are not. We are not doing it specific to the person that's currently in the job. Itis just the job. And, unfortunately, we cannot consider—you cannot consider merit -based approach to—for example, the director of public works. And I say that because the appointing authority has the ability to remove. And that's the mayor can remove the director, the mayor– so, what you are doing collectively as a whole here, is picking a salary. Page 20 Salary Commission July 11, 2023 Whether or not you want to also do step increases—we talked about that, I think, last month. Are step increases appropriate if you were to do a new salary with the potential of step increases, so that they stay in line continuously, slightly moving up along with the civil service people. But it is specific to a job, not a person—and we cannot do merit -based decisions 1, 2, or 30, 1, 2, 3—somebody who's deserving or not deserving or that's up to the appointing authority. So, I just wanted to clarify that, too. Those two things I had to say. So I appreciate you getting us back on track. With that in mind, does anybody want to further articulate either request for a letter that we can, maybe, formalize today to start that process and that communication, dialogue with our appointing authorities and their department heads—which is our current agenda Item 6. MR. NELSON: This is Commissioner Nelson. So, I would like to suggest that I thinkI mean, this first letter that ask for some backupI like that. But I also think it should go to the appointing authority—and, like, the police department where they gave us a salaryI would ask them what would they recommend. What do they recommend the salary and what adjustments and what is the rationale for that adjustment. Okay. Why are they doing that? Because I think all these other letters the previous letters, they asked for the people to, kind of, come in and explain it and all that. I would ask them—I think it's better to ask them to put it in writing first and to send it in. And we can evaluate and decide whether we want to get it in. I think that expeditesI think it makes it simpler for everybody. `Cause they got to think about what are they recommending—okay. And I think some of it, where you got inversion—they're going to come back and say that that'll be their justification. But there may be other things as well. So, I would likeI suggest we ask them, "Tell us what salary you want?" We got it from the police department, let's get it from everybody else. MS. GREENBAUM: So thank you, Commissioner Nelson. To DCC Cody, because you're saying that it's specific to the type of job each of the position is required to perform, this email that—the sample email that Glynis sent to us inquiring about their primary duties, how many employees they oversee, what the department/agency organizational structure iso, 5, and 6. That's a great starting point, I think. `Cause then, that gives us an idea of what that particular job title requires. And based on that, it'll give us some direction as to what the compensation that particular position would hold in another community of our size. MS. FRENZ: This is DCC Cody. Thank you, Commissioner Greenbaum, for that statement. I'd also like to make the record clear, Commissioner or Vice -Chair Farahi has left our meeting. He had other duties. So, he's gone as of 10:58 a.m. We can implement any and all of those requests. I'll leave it to the Commissioners, collectively, to discuss and decide what, if any—if you want to go with the 6 items, some of those 6 items, and add items this would be the time to have that conversation. Page 21 Salary Commission July 11, 2023 MS. NAMAHOE: Commissioner Namahoe. I just want to clarify, we're only speaking to clarifying my this question to Commissioner Nelson. Are we just—are you recommending that we only send it to the governing authority the police commission versus the police chief? MR. NELSON: That's my suggestionI mean, we can send it to all people but, ultimately, I think that whoever the appointing authority isI mean, they can go back and they can ask the people—give me the justification why—what you think the salary is. But I think what Cody was saying, some people may not—they may not advocate for themselves or maybe over advocating for themselves. Depends. So, I think it should go to the appointing authorities and they could decide how they want to parse it out. CHR. PAVAO: I have to concur that the appointing authority is who we should be communicating with and asking for information. Asking individual employees to justify their position of their salary would be awkward at best. As a civil servant, if somebody did that to me, I would feel very uncomfortable. MS. GREENBAUM: Commissioner Greenbaum. I agree. MS. NAMAHOE: Commissioner Namahoe. One more time I'm throwing far for this one. I think that I believe that the department heads are going to be solicited by their commissions their respective commissions. They are going to be participating in this whether they're comfortable or not. I believe that they should be afforded the same opportunity because it will help decouple the expectation that they have to do the bulk of their commission's work. And I say this speaking as having sat on the fire commission previously, where I was part of the body that hired the fire chief, at that time. So, I know, what we knew, and what we didn't know. And what we would be looking at this set of lists, the first thing we would do is the following meeting we would be throwing a series of expectations at the fire chief. And then, they would let us know what they and their white shirts, which are their—I don't know how to say white -shirts in English. I can't recall what all of their job duties are, but their leadership then would be in their own scramble, but their audience would then be their bosses. Their fire commission. I bring up my suggestion based on that history where I would like to afford the chiefs their respect to defend/decline per their comfort level versus they're going to be asked, if they are not asked by us they're going to be asked by their managing commission, their managing body. CHR. PAVAO: That's the way it should be. The appointing authority can ask and then they can bring us the information but we should communicate directly to the appointing authority, in my mind. Page 22 Salary Commission July 11, 2023 MS. NAKAMA: Commissioner Teresa Nakama. I'd like to concur with member Namahoe and ask the bosses of the various department their reason for an increase or decrease. MR. RIORDAN: I think we should stick with the mayor, who is the boss of the first 14 people. And then, we have the commissions—and if we have a—want to have some other discussion about that, then we could talk to the fire chief or the police chief. But it doesn't make any sense to bring in the director of parks and recreation or the director of public works because they're not the boss. The mayor is the boss. And this is Commissioner RiordanI'm sorry. But that's my feeling, is that we send the letter out to the mayor and to these commissions and say, "What do you want us to pay your people? You justify it for us." Because the mayor, also, has to talk to the finance director and find out whether he can afford anything that he is going to recommend. So, that's my suggestion. MS. FRENZ: DCC Cody. Let me throw out a third alternative that may, for your consideration, you could consider doing the email toa third alternative would be to, kind of, blend maybe a hybrid of the two, right—where you send it to the appointing authority per the requirements of the Charter, right, which is what you're tasked with doing. But open the door to the actual appointees, the heads, right the chief of police, for example—should those people also feel compelled to correspondence that they have an opening to do so as well. And either they will or they won't, right. So, maybe that's a happy medium, right? We follow the Charter requirements and ensure that we make that communication. But we also provide the chief of police, the fire chief, the corporation counsel, the mayor himself, the managing director, the department of public works, et cetera, et cetera to also have an opportunity, with that door open, to provide their own input if they want to. Maybe that's a happy medium that covers it and affords the two different mindsets here, right now. No harm, no foul—you get more information then you may want—or maybe you get nothing. I don't know. MS. GREENBAUM: Commissioner Greenbaum. I agree with you, DC Cody. I think the hybrid makes the most sense. It's a soft introduction to the chiefs and they will probably, eventually, be required to provide the information to the head department anyway. But it loops everybody in. MS. NAMAHOE: Commissioner Namahoe. Very happy with that, `cause I think that's actually what I was originally asking. But it sounds better how you just synthesized it. It allows the opportunity for them to jump in or decline, which isit will save them the double work. And thank you very much. Thank you, everyone, for allowing me to (inaudible) on this particular point. MS. GREENBAUM: Thank you for continuing to push for it, `cause it makes sense. MR. RIORDAN: This is Commissioner Riordan. I disagree with it, the hybrid. Because we're asking people to go—subordinate their bosses and say, "My boss isn't correct. I need more Page 23 Salary Commission July 11, 2023 money"—or "I don't need this money." And it's—none of us want that when our employees come to us and say, "Oh, no, you're wrong. Everybody wants more money." And so, I think we need to leave it with the commissions and the mayor and say, "Present this to us." And then, they can say, "Yes, the parks and rec. director should make less than the public works director"—and less than this or that or maybe the lawyer should make a little more money that would make Cody happy. So, anyhow, that's my opinion but. MR. NELSON: This is Nelson. I, sort of, tend to agree with that—but I do think maybe all the department heads should be copied on the request. Okay. So, basically, yeah the appointing authority has to provide the justification but the department head, the deputy head they know what's coming, so that they could go talk to their boss. Because, ultimately, there is a chain of command. And you're right, you don't want the deputies going out under their boss—it's going to be more uncomfortable than anything else, particularly, if they do it and their boss doesn't like it. Right. So, you copy them on it, then they can go talk to their boss, put their input in to the boss, and advocate for themselves first. And so, it becomes arather than the communication getting all fractured, it becomes a unified communication. MS. NAMAHOE: Commissioner Namahoe. Thank you both, Commissioners, because there's nothing in these first six questions that's addressing money. It's addressing duties. And so, my impetus for the push has been based on the types of questions we're going to ask and, again, based on history. In order for me to tell you as a fire commissioner what they're doing, I got to turn around them and ask them, "What do you guys do?" So, I'm liking the direction we're all going in. Thank you. MS. NAKAMA: Commissioner Teresa Nakama. I'm not sure where the past commissioners have gone with increases, but I have a piece of paper, I don't know where I got it from—but it talks about current salary, new salary, raises, and the percentage. And I'll just—I'll pass this on to Chairman Pavao. But it says managing director at 119 and a proposed new salary of 153,611.00a raise of 34,600 or 7-607, which is a 29.1 increase in their salary. Do we have the information of the past salary commission on the work that they did in the proposals of increases? I'll share this with Chairman Pavao. Please pass. MS. FRENZ: This is DCC Cody. Yes, everything that the prior salary commission did is all available online. So, if you go to the County of Hawaii website, you'll find a link that's for boards and commissions. Within boards and commissions, there will be the salary commission. And if you go to the year 2018, you'll be able to see everything that they've done including all the minutes, their conversations—and that's information that I provided and talked with you guys—well, most of you about—during our new board member orientation, so that it's important to see what your predecessors did before you. Do you like what they did? Do you not like what they did? And the Honolulu City and County salary commission is an amazing tool for you to consider because they just did this, this year, right. You can see what they got a little pushback Page 24 Salary Commission July 11, 2023 on from the community. But their approach you can even access their findings of fact, conclusions of law, which we will all need to draft, too—which means me—with your assistance before you can even take action, if you consider to take action. So, all of that, Commissioner Nakama, is available. If you need any help getting there, I can show you this afternoon or when we're done here today. I can show you exactly how to access all of that. It's publicly available. MS. NAKAMA: Commissioner Nakama. I was just wondering if members of this Commission has taken a look at past records and this is why I wanted to share that piece of paper that I've gotten. If you haven't, it's a wide array of information that we need to look at because things were discussed back then, and maybe we can take their information and incorporate it with what we have in front of us and see if it makes sense of what was discussed prior to us coming on board. CHR. PAVAO: Yeah. I recommend that's a good idea. I've reviewed most of the past decisions and minutes that are online on the County's website. You can look at the County, on the boards and commissions, and look at the salary commission. You can go back and look at all the previous decisions. MS. NAKAMA: So, I was wondering if what you have in front of you, right now, Chairman Pavao this is Teresa Nakama—is what we're talking about and was already discussed or is that salary increase that they talked in the past? CHR. PAVAO: This is in the past. This is, like, I don't know years ago when Harry Kim was mayor. There was a lot of public outcry about this because it was significant raises. But I think the salary commission MS. NAKAMA: So, are they receiving those new salary now? I mean, because it was automatic or they didn't receive those salaries? CHR. PAVAO: This is probably the current salaries, I think. MS. FRENZ: DCC Cody. This is not. I'm not even sure to be honest— CHR. onest CHR. PAVAO: I don't know if that was approved or not. MS. FRENZ: I don't even know if this is for the Island of Hawaii. I don't even know. This is not accurate. This is not current—put it that way. This is not what the these individuals on this are not currently getting these salaries. So, this may have been from two or three prior actions before the 2018. `Cause 2018 is even higher than this already. This is not accurate. This is not current. MS. NAKAMA: Oh, so that just Page 25 Salary Commission July 11, 2023 MS. FRENZ: I don't even know if this is Hawaii County, to be honest. MS. NAKAMA: It's Hawaii County, yeah. MS. FRENZ: Yeah, it doesn't say, so I'm not sure. CHR. PAVAO: I think it's years ago, when Harry Kim was mayor the previous term. MS. FRENZ: Yeah. The high new salary is not currently what the mayor is getting. So, I'm not too sure. MS. NAKAMA: So, I think we need to look at what was discussed in the past, so we know what the current information isTeresa Nakama. CHR. PAVAO: Yeah. I would recommend everybody go to the boards and commissions Hawai`i County boards and commissions website. You can review all the previous minutes and communications and decisions that the previous salary commissions have made. Yeah. You can do the same for Maui and—I've looked at the City and County of Honolulu's salary commission minutes as well. Interesting process. They did a lot of due diligence when they before they made their decision. MS. NAKAMA: Well, ITeresa Nakama, memberI was just wondering if we're doing our due diligence looking at past information—coming about what is current information and where we want to go. And does the mayor know that, in the future, our budget will cover the salaries, `cause I don't know what our budget. It's so thick and convoluted—it's hard to follow. MS. FRENZ: This is DCC Cody. So, I can't tell everyone on this Commission nor is it my ku/eana to how to do your job. I doI will say that I expect and/or I think when you were all appointed, there was an expectation that the necessary homework and due diligence would be done by each and every one of you, respectful lyright. And that includes seeing what our—your predecessors and prior salary commissioners did, in fact, do the last time—at a bare minimum—if not, previous ones. What worked for them. What didn't work. What do you like. What you want to do differently. But I personally expect each and every one of you to have already reviewed that prior to coming to our first meeting, so we could always have a fruitful discussion, right. I mean, we don't want to talk about something that you have to you should have reviewed when you should have already done it, and now we got to continue it. Just to make sure we—good use of time. `Cause your time is all equally valuable, right. You're volunteers here. So, I appreciate all the time that you are giving and if Chair Pavao has already reviewed that, I appreciate that because that'll provide you the guidance to say, "I want to do this" or "I want to see that"—and that's all a part of this conversation. So, yes, that is expected, Commissioner Nakama—and very helpful as well. Page 26 Salary Commission July 11, 2023 CHR. PAVAO: Yeah, I think that the conversation around budget comes up every time the salary commission has convened in the past. I see it in the previous minutes. And, although we should be cognizant of that, it's not in the Charter—our responsibility to pay attention to the budget. Our responsibility is to do due diligence and to make salary raises according as to what we think is acceptable. There's six of the nine of us vote to approve the salary raises that's the law. The county council, the mayor—nobody else gets to veto or approve it. We make the final decision. But—so, I remember reading in the minutes that one of the salary commissioners asked Mayor Kim when he was here before the commission—"We're going to approve this. Is there money in the budget to cover these raises? And his response is—it's not your concern. You pass the salary raises. It's my concern to find the money to pay the raises." MS. GREENBAUM: Commissioner Greenbaum to Commissioner Nakama, I believe the reason for the large increase, if I recall correctly, and I wasn't on the Commission in 2018. But I came thereafter—and they had mentioned that it had to do with 10 years of no increase. And from 2008 to 2018—it was 10I believe 5 to 10 years of no increase, which caused that higher increase to be proposed. I don't know what they ended up with, but that was the reason for the higher increase proposal. And that's something I would hope we don't encounter because of delays. CHR. PAVAO: I think that we're almost in a similar situation because it's been a number of years. MS. GREENBAUM: Correct. CHR. PAVAO: One of the things that we try to consider—and I know there was some previous discussion even the last meeting—is some process of step movements because, if we just make an increase now and the Salary Commission doesn't convene for another 3, 4, 5, years you end up with the same situation. And it gets harder and harder for the County to recruit and retain the best employees because even, like public works, you get a new mayor—some of the best employees for that director position are within the department. But an engineer in public works is going to refuse the appointment because they're going to take a big pay cut, which is now they're going to have an impact on their current salary but has a long-term impact on their retirement. The same problem happened with the current recruitment for the chief. I asked people in the department and my response was thatoh, from captains and majors up make more than their current chiefs, so why would be apply for that job? So, it becomes an issue with recruiting and retaining staff. But—so, hopefully, we can come up with an appropriate salary schedule now but something that can see increases. Because even when you talk about collective bargaining, the bargaining units have contracts. Most of them that expire July 1st well, July 1" '25 is the last pay increase, but—so if they get 4 percent now, Page 27 Salary Commission July 11, 2023 they get another increase. In the meantime, we're just playing catch-up and we get another increase—so the subordinates end up still making more than their appointed authorities. MS. GREENBAUM: I propose to draft—Commissioner GreenbaumI propose that we draft a letter with these questions the sample questions that Glynis had sent to us as a starting point. And "cc" the—send it to the executives and cc the head of the departments and get that started because— CHR. PAVAO: Okay. Make it a motion? MR. NELSON: This is Commissioner Nelson. So, I do want to add, not just those questions, I want to add that we ask the recommended salary adjustments and a rationale for the salary adjustments to that letter. Okay. `Cause that's ultimately what we want—that's the information we (inaudible). CHR. PAVAO: Commissioner Greenbaum, are you all right with the amendment to your motion? MS. GREENBAUM: Yes. That sounds wonderful. CHR. PAVAO: Okay. Is there a second? MS. NAKAMA: Teresa Nakama—second. CHR. PAVAO: Okay. Any further discussion? If not, we'll go ahead and vote. All those in favor of the motion, as amended, signify by saying aye. Any opposed? The voice vote was as follows: AYES: Commissioners Farahi, Dudoit, Greenbaum, Kawa`auhau, Nakama, Namahoe, Nelson, Riordan, and Chair Pavao – 9 OPPOSED: None. ABSENT & EXCUSED: None. CHR. PAVAO: Okay. The motion passed unanimously. So, we'll go ahead and draft those letters and get them out. MS. NAKAMA: Commissioner Nakama. We have Executive Patel here from HR. Is there somewhere in the website of the current salaries for all the appointed directors and respective jobs below them that is something we can look at on the website? MR. PATEL: I'm not sure if it's on the website, but that information is in that July 7, 2023, Communication 23-09. Page 28 Salary Commission July 11, 2023 CHR. PAVAO: It's in this handout that is in the packet—the yellow highlighted is Maui County's raises, but right next to that is Hawai`i County. MS. FRENZ: This is DCC Cody. So, also, Commissioner Nakama, the—in our green folder— let me show—I'm going to show it, so you can see, Commissioner Nakama, our green folder. It's the—in fact, the communication that you first speaking of earlier today, it's dated July 7, 2023—the bottom right-hand corner, Communication number's 23-09, second page. If you flip to the second page within that hand-out, it has the list of all current salaries for Number 1, Number 2—for example. I believe that's what you're looking for? MS. NAKAMA: Yes. I've got it. Thank you. Announcements (Item 7) CHR. PAVAO: Okay. So, moving on to the Number 7, "Announcements"—we don't have any announcements. Schedule Next Meeting Date (Item 8) The Salary Commission Will Convene Its Next Meeting On Friday, August 4,2023,At 10:00 A.M. At The Hilo Council Chambers, Hawaii County Building, 25 Aupuni Street, First Floor, Room 1401, Hilo, HI 96720 CHR. PAVAO: And Number 8, it's schedule our next meeting—scheduled for August 4th at 10 a.m. here at the Hilo Council Chambers. Adjournment (Item 9) CHR. PAVAO: Okay. Any further discussion? If not, we'll adjourn. Thank you all for your time. Meeting adjourned. Thank you. (The Chair declared the meeting adjourned at 11:20 a.m.) Respectfully submitted, illyab fp40(..k) Glynis Yar4ada, Secretary-Reporter APPROVED: Steven Pay.e, Chair Salary Co ission Page 29