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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2013-12-05 Windward Transcript - Ocean View WINDWARD PLANNING COMMISSION COUNTY OF HAWAI‘I HEARING TRANSCRIPT DECEMBER 5, 2013 PLANNING DIRECTOR INITIATED ACTION A regularly advertised meeting on the REGARDING SP NO. 653 ISSUED TO OCEAN VIEW INVESTMENT COMPANY, INC., was called to order at 10:16 a.m. in the County of Hawai‘i, Aupuni Center Conference Room, 101 Pauahi Street, Hilo, Hawai‘i, with Chairman Wallace Ishibashi presiding. COMMISSIONERS PRESENT: Wallace Ishibashi, Ronald Gonzales, Gregory Henkel, Myles Miyasato, Stephen Ono and Raylene Moses STAFF PRESENT: Margaret Masunaga (Deputy Corporation Counsel), Duane Kanuha (Planning Director), Daryn Arai (Planning Program Manager), Phyllis Fujijmoto (Staff Planner), Maija Cottle (Staff Planner), Jeff Darrow (Staff Planner), and Sharon Nomura (Secretary) ABSENT AND EXCUSED: Charles Heaukulani And ten people from the public in attendance INITIATOR: PLANNING DIRECTOR (SP NO. 653) Assessment and appropriate action on applicant’s response/action regarding Condition No. 10 of Special Permit No. 653 issued to Ocean View Investment Company, Inc., on December 8, 1987 which allowed a variety of commercial and industrial uses and a farmers’ market on 14.75 acres of land within the State Land Use Agricultural District. The property is located at the western corner of the Hawai‘i Belt Road-Prince Kuhio Boulevard intersection and includes the existing Ocean View Store complex known as Pohue Plaza, Kahuku, Ka‘u, Hawai‘i. TMK: 9-2-l85:094, 095,096 and Portions of 092 and 093. ISHIBASHI: Moving on to Item 3, Planning Director’s SPP No. 653. Maija? COTTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Good morning. ISHIBASHI: Good morning. COTTLE: This item was continued from your November hearing in order to provide the applicant the opportunity to come and present information of how they tried to comply with the conditions of their permit. And if it’s all right with the Commission, since the applicant wasn’t here at the previous hearing, I’d like to just run through the presentation again. 1 EXHIBIT B So this item is on your agenda because the Planning Director is requesting that you assess and take action on the applicant’s response regarding Condition 10 of Special Permit No. 653. The property is located in the Hawaiian Ranchos Subdivision in the Ka‘u District. You can see the permit area consists of five parcels that are outlined in red in the middle of the slide. The current zoning of the property is Agricultural 3 acres, which is shown in the light blue. This is a close-up view of the properties. You have the Highway running through the middle of the slide in an east-west direction. And then Prince Kuhio Boulevard comes off towards the makai direction here. And then Maile Drive intersects at a “t” right in front of the properties. This is an aerial view of the properties. Again, you have the highway at the top of the slide running in an east-west direction, and then Prince Kuhio Boulevard and Maile Drive. And then you can see the existing shopping center. Malama Market is located in this area here. And the farmers market swap meet activities are occurring in this area located here. They do have a parking area that can accommodate about 50 stalls or 50 spaces that are in this general area here. The Hawai‘i park and ride lot, the County park and ride lot, is located here. This park and ride lot is leased by the County from the property owners. And then the property owners also own the property to the east of the park and ride lot. And this area they allow to be used for overflow parking for the swap meet activities. So Condition 10 of special Permit 653 basically says that if the applicant fails to comply conditions of the permit or is unable to resolve a public complaint, the Planning Director is supposed to investigate the complaint and then either enforce the appropriate conditions or refer the matter to the Planning Commission. So that is why we’re here today. And that concludes the presentation. If it’s all right with the Commission, the Planning Department would also like to provide a little bit more information after the applicant speaks and after the Road Association speaks. We think we have some solutions to this parking problem; and so we’d like to be able to present that to you after hearing from those two parties. ISHIBASHI: Thank you, Maija. Any questions for staff? Okay, thank you. If we could call up the applicant. Okay, thank you. Could you raise your right hand. We can swear you in, you, too. Thank you. Do you swear and confirm to tell the truth before the Windward Planning Commission over this matter? WESTERVELT: I do. ISHIBASHI: Thank you. PEEBLES: I do. ISHIBASHI: Go ahead, you may proceed. 2 EXHIBIT B WESTERVELT: My name isBradley Westervelt. I am the authorized agent for Ocean View Partners and have been handling the correspondence and the updating of the special permit. There have been a series of dialogue that has brought this question around to several different agencies in the County. And here today we have Mr. Peebles who is Ocean View LLC and he will be speaking on this matter. But I’m here for support and to answer any questions that may come up due to the special permit revision that I, excuse me, I wrote earlier this year, and was approved by the Planning Department. And we’re actually very interested to learn what issues in there we need to change or modify to be in compliant. PEEBLES: Hi, I’m Bill Peebles. I think the best way to handle this is to kind of go over the quick history. We purchased the property which already had an existing swap meet approximately 10 years ago. This swap meet has been in existence for about 15. It is one of the few community activities we have in our area. If you’re familiar with Ka‘u we have a 70-mile tract with no traffic lights and no stop signs. It’s remote. When we purchased the property the swap meet was being run by the owners of Desert Rose at that time. We intended to close the swap meet. And somehow about 50 people got my unlisted home number and called me asking us if we would keep it up. We asked the Desert Rose people to just get an insurance policy. They decided that the expense was too much and they didn’t do it, which left us with a community that wanted it. And so we took it over. And we had South Point U-Cart, Inc., Dan and his wife, which at that time managed the swap meet. As it got bigger, and if I would, could you put that map back up, please, so I can kind of explain. Right here is where the swap meet originally is. Right now it averages approximately 25 vendors on a Saturday. It lasts about 4 hours. Due to concerns from other people here, we then moved it over to this section here, which actually takes probably 50 to 70 vehicles, if possible, but there are usually 25 vendors. Then due to issues raised by a couple of individuals and ranchers that the problem as I see it they complained that the parking, people are parking along this side of the road. The police have been called numerous times. The police have said there is no problem for access or anything. It’s an issue of parking on the side of the road. Because of the, and I don’t know how I did that guys. Now according to our application, which I have, I don’t know if you guys have, we have met all the County requirements for parking and everything, excuse me, within just this general area. And approximately two years ago there were complaints that people were parking on the side of the road. So we went to their, the board meeting; and at their board meeting we heard all sorts of things from picking up cones from the County every Saturday and put them along the side of the road, all of this. And during the meeting I said I’ll tell you, let’s see if we can help you. So then we went in this very large parking area here for any additional parking. We actually have more available parking than the County park in Nā‘ālehu. And the biggest issue seems to be that people continue to want to park along the side of the road. Now please keep in mind the Police Department said there’s not an issue, the Fire Department said there’s not an issue. We have spent a lot of money to make it where there’s more available parking. There’s more parking there, again, than the Nā‘ālehu County park. And if parking along the side of the road becomes an issue, what do we do? Do we shut down Nā‘ālehu, the County park? Because we can’t have 3 EXHIBIT B softball games if people park on the side of the roads. Do we shut down the Post Office? Because when it gets busy people park on the side of the road. I know this sounds ridiculous but it is exactly what we’re talking about. Do we shut down the churches because funerals and weddings, they don’t have enough parking, and they park on Māmalahoa Highway? For 30 years nobody has made a complaint and they continue on. I don’t want to get frustrated with this but we can’t do much more than do that. Then I went and talked to people within Ranchos, cause from the, we have Ranchos residents that are vendors in this little swap meet. We have Ranchos residents that park along the side of the road. I have spoken with them, and they basically have said I pay mine, I can park along the side of the road. A few individuals that volunteered for a Road Committee cannot make the decisions for me. I don’t really know what else to do. I can tell you from my point of view and the history of this. This supports directly a few hundred people, indirectly probably 1,000 in our little area. We don’t have much else going on there. We have a population that over 80 percent is on some sort of subsidy, be it Federal, County or State. It’s probably over 90 percent. This is my philosophy – I am there to support my community. Hawai‘i is my home. Big Island is my island. And Ka‘u is my community. We take no income. We support from this little shopping center and, additional, we support the keiki fishing tournaments in Milolii. We support the keiki fishing family tournaments in Punalu‘u. We support the Hana Hou Christmas party where every family gets a meal, every child gets a present. We support various other organizations, including the hospital, the handicap van that’s there. We are doing positive things for our community. It is my belief that the private sector has that obligation. We don’t go to the government, we don’t go to the County. We support our community; and we do it very quietly. I’m not a big fan of being here, to be honest with you. But I think the voice has to be heard. We have met every requirement by the County, the Health Department, we keep it open as a community issue from the will of the people. I don’t know when the negative minority voice became the overriding voice, instead of the quiet majority of the community; and that is the case here. I have tried every way I can to work with a few individuals who have accepted positions, and I applaud their ability and their sense of civic duty to go on these committees and do that. I applaud them for doing that. But there’s an old adage that anybody can stir a pot but few can cook. And I don’t mean to be negative toward them, but the only cooking that we’ve seen up there has been plenty of pilikia and hakaka for the community. And the easy fix would have been for them to go talk to their own members of Ranchos of which we are, we own, I don’t know, 10 or 12 lots in there. Go talk to your neighbors and say, hey, kokua, go park in this open parking area, we don’t want you to park on the side of the road. Instead of that we spend all this time here and they continue to do this with the thumb. I’m trying to lift the community. Now I don’t know what to begin from this. Frankly if the swap meet goes, it takes away a lot of my headaches; but I think that is a very wrong way to go. And I think I’ve said all I need to. Thank you for your time. 4 EXHIBIT B ISHIBASHI: Thank you so much. Any questions, Commissioners? Commissioner Henkel. HENKEL: Yeah, two questions. How many employees are at the swap meet? PEEBLES: We have one individual that, he’s here actually, Dennis who is, basically runs the swap meet. HENKEL: And you charge, the second question is you charge them for this, for ending? PEEBLES: Fifteen dollars per. HENKEL: Okay. PEEBLES: That averages to about $400 per week. We pay bathroom facilities, an agent to maintain it, and insurance, but actually we don’t even do that. Any access from that goes directly back into our community and supports our community. ISHIBASHI: Thank you. MOSES: I had a question but you’ve already answered it, Bill. Because initially you said you don’t collect anything but you do collect money from the vendors on a weekly basis. Is it just Saturday, or is it Wednesdays and Saturdays? PEEBLES: It’s only Saturdays. And I think on Tuesdays, some of the people have been going, which I find quite interesting because I see Mr. Nitsche here, who has made most of the complaints, his wife goes on Tuesdays to the chiropractor there, which I’ve just been made aware of. I don’t think the issue, from what I’ve heard, is whether or not the swap meet should be there. MOSES: Correct. PEEBLES: I think the issue is they don’t want people parking on the side of the road. We have made all parking available, we have talked to the people. We hired police officers for them for two weeks in a row to explain to people please don’t park on the side of the road, they don’t want you to. But how do I control the Rancho people if they don’t respect their own supposed leaders? How is that our issue? MOSES: Well, that’s why we’re here to discuss coming up with a solution because part of the permit or what Maija shared with us is that you need to address public complaint. And Mr. Nitche is the public and he has made a complaint, and so how do we address it? And being from Ka‘u myself, knowing, I’ve been there, I’ve been at the swap meet, I see it as an asset and value to our community, there’s no doubt. But there’s also, it’s not unreasonable to ask that parking signs be put up, it’s not unreasonable to ask that parking be enforced during the time of the swap meet for safety issues. Is that possible? Can we hire and add on another job for somebody in Ka‘u to enforce that? If Dennis is here, then maybe he should be doing that during 5 EXHIBIT B that four hours. All I’m saying is that we can come up with a solution to address public complaint, as long as it’s reasonable. And I see it to be reasonable. PEEBLES: I agree with you on that. If you were in my position and with, if you knew all the things we’ve been though with -. And, again, when you say a public complaint, you’re only talking a few people. You’re not talking an organization, you’re only talking a few people. One of the things that Dennis put out a couple of week ago, and it appears to have actually worked, is this, if you care to hand it and share it with them. We will do whatever as good public servants. I don’t get all excited. I go under the old style. I believe in live and let live. I believe in aloha and the spirit of ho‘omalimali. And I go by sometimes and see people selling fish on our lot or trying to sell a car on one of the lots. They’re trespassing. I don’t care. If it helps them, it’s okay with me. I’m not going to get excited about this stuff. And I really don’t think there is an issue. There has never really been an issue except in a few people’s minds. However, having said that, we will continue to help them and work with them as much as we can. ISHIBASHI: Okay, thank you. Any further questions, Commissioners? GONZALES: I have a question. ISHIBASHI: Commissioner Gonzales. GONZALES: When you hired those police officers for those couple for weeks, did it work? PEEBLES: From my point of view, yes. From a few individuals, they didn’t do their job. GONZALES: Okay, thank you. ISHIBASHI: Thank you. Any questions, Commissioners? HENKEL: Mr. Chair? ISHIBASHI: Go ahead, Mr. Henkel. HENKEL: Just one more comment. I’m sorry, I haven’t had the pleasure of attending the swap meet but I’m a regular at the -. In Puna we have the Maku‘u Farmers Market, it’s a lot bigger. They probably have a 100 or 150 vendors every Sunday. And the Maku‘u Farmers Association have done a great job in, I mean they’ve grown. They’ve grown the swap meet because they take into consideration the safety of the parking and the convenience. And they hire a lot of people to make sure that the people do, you know, park in the right place. And because of that they’ve actually grown and are doing a lot better than when they first started out. And I do strongly believe, you know, that for you guys to continue that you’re going to have to take the responsibility of ensuring that some kid doesn’t dart across the street and get run over by a car, which would possibly shut you down. And that isn’t the way, you know, that anybody wants it to go. So, I mean, I would like to see you hire one or two more people to help control the traffic 6 EXHIBIT B and stuff. And I don’t know if that’s one of the conditions or not, but that’s just my personal feeling. PEEBLE: And I follow you entirely. If we had 100 vendors paying $20 a piece, there would be no issue. We have a community that doesn’t have much money. We have a community that’s struggling, they have a hard time pulling $15 out. This is not high society as you look at it. This is a community. It’s a community event. I would like to invite all of you to go to the next swap meet. Go see what really is going on. Okay? I would invite you to do that. Then make your decision on what you think. If we hire more people, we raise the rates. However it’s, again, you have a private roadway, okay? This is a private roadway. It’s not a public roadway. We have the same issues worst being raised here in the town of Nā‘ālehu on Māmalahoa Highway. Okay? I don’t know how to enforce a private roadway standard. Now I have a letter here of what we did before, if you would care to see it. When we went to the meeting, in fact they thanked us, oh, you’ve done everything you could possibly do, and they were going to kokua and come in and work with the community. We did our end, they didn’t do theirs. I don’t have a solution other than do we hire somebody Every week? Then we have to raise the prices to the vendors. And I understand your concerns and all that. They’ve been mine. But when I have the Police Department and the Fire Department tell me that there isn’t an issue, what do you want me to do? I really don’t understand. And if that is the main issue, parking on the side of the road and people going across the road, what are we going to do with the rest of the town from Wai‘ōhinu all the way through? Do we, every time there is an event, the church has a funeral, we have to hire police officers to come to, on the main road of traffic, people walking across the road? I mean I’m really, I’m serious about this. I don’t really know, cause this exists all through our entire area on the main highway. This is just a sub-road in a subdivision that has another entrance that not one resident even needs to go by this place if they don’t want to. MOSES: Excuse me, Bill. Isn’t that the difference, the difference between the private versus the County, the highway? The police have authority on there but not on the private roads. So there is a difference there. And yours is on a weekly basis. And so if, all I’m saying is that, and I agree with Commissioner Henkel in what Maku‘u does, that we have signage, appropriate signage, placed where parking should be, be implemented and put in, supervision. So it’s not only parking but it is safety. Yeah? And so if those things can be met definitely that would help in the situation in the complaints have been brought forth. PEEBLES: I would agree, I would agree with that. But I don’t, I’m going to have to take your guy’s direction because Dennis does tell people, they are moving. But what do you do with a resident that lives there that says, “They’re not going to tell me I can’t park here, it’s a private road.” Doesn’t this thing go to them? I mean we’re talking residents of this same area. How do I tell a resident to do something that they said they don’t have to do? Really what it comes down to is if there is a just a little more aloha and people talking to people. This has been going on for 6, 7 years. I had 100 people wanting to get a caravan and come down here cause they’re so upset that this, what they call nonsense is still going on. And I don’t want that, I don’t want people coming down and yelling. We’ve all been through those meetings. They’re nonproductive. A solution to it? You’re going to have to have the road committee, or the members whoever they 7 EXHIBIT B are, give authorization to someone else to control their resident members. Now they’re not all Ranchos people that do that, but there are several. Is that our obligation to control the community people? I don’t know. If you’d like we’ll have a guy stand out there with a sign, I guess. But what do I do when a resident of that area says “No”? What do you do? ISHIBASHI: Thank you. We have one testifier. You may be seated for now. We have John Nitche? NITCHE: Right. I’m right here. ISHIBASHI: Come up, you can come up. Okay, Don, could you raise your right hand, please. Do you swear and affirm to tell the truth before the Windward Planning Commission over this matter? NITCHE: I do. ISHIBASHI: Thank you. Go ahead, you may testify. NITCHE: Okay. I’m on the Ocean View Community Development Road Maintenance Corporation. Unfortunately our private roads we have to maintain our own road system. Well, with maintaining them, that means we have to kind of oversee what’s going on them to some degree. Mr. Peebles is correct in saying that they have done a few things to try and correct the situation. But not completely. They put a parking lot in and they have a sign that’s less than a foot long directing people to it. They can’t even see the sign. There’s a major problem with the heavy traffic parking all along the road and people running in and out. And we’re afraid we’re not, we know there’s going to be an accident eventually because of all the traffic going on and cars coming through it too fast speeding. All we request them to do is a hire a couple of people to oversee the parking and then put in proper parking signs directing people to it. And then the people that are there with maybe a colored vest on can direct them to the parking when it gets heavy and there’s a parking problem. I don’t think that’s asking too much. We are for the swap meet. They are twisting it around to make us the bad guys that we’re trying to shut the whole swap meet down. We’re not. We like the swap meet like everybody does. But it gets out of hand. It’s a crazy situation at times and very dangerous. So it’s the safety situation that we’re concerned about, and if they would put in adequate signage and a couple of people in a vest, which we have done twice ourselves. We don’t have the funds to hire people to oversee their operation of the road. They are taking in money for their swap meet. They do have funds that they could hire people to do the job. We did it twice and it worked very well. And we did it with a couple of people with their colored vests on. The parking was no problem, they went and parked in the direct, in proper places. It was one place for parking that they provided down Maile Street and then they, so -. If people don’t even know they exists when they come in, they just park where it’s convenient. So if they were 8 EXHIBIT B directed to that it would solve it. And that’s all we request that they do. We’ve had meetings with them and just run against a brick wall. They don’t want to spend any of their income to run it properly; and that’s all we request. We’re not, absolutely not planning to shut it down. In fact, last week there were notes put on windshields which insinuated that we’re the guys that are the bad guys trying to shut them down and, to get public opinions out there in their favor. They don’t need to do that. We’re not against the swap meet, only that it’s run properly. Our Board is made up of all volunteers, we have no pay, we do it for nothing. This is the second trip I’ve made over here. It takes up most of the day for me to come over here and to testify, which I think is unnecessary. If they had just worked with us a little bit this could have been solved. And that’s all we request. PEEBLES: May I respond to that? ISHIBASHI: Thank you, Mr. Nitche. Any questions for the testifier, Commissioners? Okay. You may be excused. Don? NITCHE: Pardon me? ISHIBASHI: You may be excused? NITCHE: Well, he’s going to, I’ll see what he comes up with, and then I’ll be excused. He lives 20 miles away by the way. He does not live in Ocean View. ISHIBASHI: You may speak. Sign up. Come sign up. Sit down over here. Go ahead. PEBBLES: Just in response to this. NOMURA: Microphone, please. PEBBLES: Oh. I know this is a public meeting. In a private meeting I would bring up other issues. To say that we haven’t done anything, here’s a letter from them to us, if you would care to read this. We’ve actually spent probably over $15,000 in infrastructure to provide additional parking to make them happy. Okay? This is a little town. There is not one person in the world who doesn’t know that parking lot is there for over parking. Again, the main issue is what do you do with residents of that area that don’t pay any attention to their board and make a lot of wild accusations against that board? That is my biggest issue. Well, whatever you guys decide if you think you’d want to do, if there’s parking -. I mean I looked at all those letters that have been th sent to, all the time, all you people, all everything else. If 1/10 of that time had been done by the representatives of Rancho road crew to come and talk to their own people and say, hey, kokua, help us out with this, we would not be here, just a tenth of the time. I even called for this meeting. ISHIBASHI: Okay, thank you. Dennis, could you raise your right hand, please. Do you swear and confirm to tell the truth before the Windward Planning Commission over this matter? 9 EXHIBIT B WESTERVELT: I do. ISHIBASHI: Thank you, Dennis. Go ahead, Dennis. WESTERVELT: I’m the manager for the Ocean View swap meet. And I would just like to say that I passed out about 200 of these little slips that you got passed around over the last three weeks. And out of that, only one car refused to move to a designated parking lot. We have signs that show where the parking is. I mean, some people maybe have, need bigger glasses. The people don’t seem to have any trouble when I ask them to move. They all moved except for one, and that would be his neighbor. But, you know, he said I own these roads, I don’t have to move. But basically everybody wants the swap meet to survive and they all did exactly what he wants us to do, and that’s to move the people to the parking lot from the road. We can continue to do that as long as necessary. I was on the volunteer fire department for 12 years. I know the most dangerous thing you can do is put somebody out in the middle of the road and direct traffic. The one at Maku‘u is totally different. They don’t have to cross the road. They’re in the parking lot, they have people directing there. We can have people directing traffic in the parking lot too if we needed to. But that’s not the issue here. You put somebody on the road, the Fire Department or the Police Department or the Road people that work on the roads know it’s the most dangerous thing you could do, is put somebody in the middle of the road. I didn’t put anybody in the middle of the road to pass these things out. I passed them out after they got out of their cars and they came into the swap meet. They all went back and moved their cars. I think the issue has been solved, personally. MOSES: Dennis, you just said that if you put somebody in the middle of the road it’s the most dangerous. Do you know children pass back and forth on the road? Who’s taking care of them? Who’s watching them? WESTERVELT: Their parents, their parents. MOSES: Well, all I’m saying is that we need to ensure safety there and it doesn’t seem -. I’ve been there, I’ve seen the amount of people going back and forth without anybody there directing or ensuring that safety is number one there. And directing traffic, I haven’t seen it. I’m sorry, I live there, I’ve been there, and I haven’t seen it. WESTERVELT: Sorry, what is the thing you haven’t seen? PEEBLES: You know, if it solves it, we’ll find somebody to hire somebody to stand there. That solves this issue. But in response to Raylene, we have people crossing Māmalahoa Highway every single day from the swap meets that are down in Nā‘ālehu, the air markets, they’re running across the road every day, the main highway. Who’s watching them, Raylene? Nobody. Because, that’s what we do -. 10 EXHIBIT B GONZALES: Brother, Māmalahoa Highway isn’t your pilikia. The swap meet is. We’re not here to talk about all the rest of that stuff. It’s, you know -. PEEBLES: I understand. I’m just trying to make a comparison. Walking across the road, is it more dangerous to walk across Māmalahoa Highway or an off-side road. GONZALES: And, again, we’re not here to discuss that. WESTERVELT: I mean if people park in the -. PEEBLES: Fair enough. WESTERVELT: In the Māmalahoa parking lot they’re not crossing any road at all. They’re crossing a driveway. NITCHE: Can I -? HENKEL: Mr. Chair? ISHIBASHI: Commissioner Henkel. Hang on, Don. Commissioner Henkel. HENKEL: To answer or to respond to your statement about Maku‘u, it’s actually about five different parking lots that’s connected with essentially a private road; and they do take it very seriously the traffic control and pedestrian control. And they don’t let people just park -. If somebody is parked in the wrong place, they make them move. WESTERVELT: But they don’t, they have 100 cars in the parking lot, not on the highway. HENKEL: You can respond to me. If someone is parked in the wrong place, they make them move. If they don’t move, they call the police. You’ve got a private road. If somebody is parked there illegally and you ask them to move and they don’t move you call the police, then it’s a police matter. NITCHE: The police refuse to do anything on private roads. HENKEL: That’s not true. NITCHE: But I’d like to add one thing, directly across the road from where they operate there’s, the County pays rent to have us a park and ride lot. That is taken over completely by the swap meet as well. The County is already paying for that property. HENKEL: Excuse me, excuse me, I still have the floor. NITCHE: When the bus comes it can’t even pull in there. It has got to go -. 11 EXHIBIT B HENKEL: Mr. Nitche, Mr. Nitche, I still have the floor. NITCHE: Okay. HENKEL: You know, you spent $15,000 making a parking lot and doing a sign. But if you don’t make the people use it, it’s not enough. You need to do whatever it takes to enforce that what you’ve already committed to. And that’s -. PEEBLES: Again, if you read that letter as it comes -. ARAI: Microphone, please. PEEBLES: If you read that letter as it comes across, I went to a Board meeting, I sat down with them. I asked them, what do you want us to do? Provide more parking, okay. And I said what else? Well, we want people, let them know they can’t do this. Hey, we’ll hire the police, we’ll hire the police officers for two weekends to put this out because -. And, again, when you say make people do something, you’re absolutely right. So I can’t make the person do that. I mean we have other issues. We have one guy that you never know when he’s going to show up; but he claims he’s Hawaiian blood and he has the right to do whatever he wants and we have none. I respect his opinion. I think it’s shortsighted in today’s world. But I expect it, you know, I respect it. Is it then my job to then police their road for something that’s completely unrelated to that issue and to tell that gentleman to move? I’m not enforcement. And if the police who we’ve hired say there’s not a problem -. That was part of the problem, I think, after this. But we did all of that, we hired them, we produced parking, we told people they can be ticketed, the police officers told them. We’ve done everything we’ve could. But, again, you run into some individuals that claim private road, I pay my money, I’ll park where I want. ONO: Mr. Chair? ISHIBASHI: Okay, any questions, Commissioners? ONO: Yes, Mr. Chair. ISHIBASHI: Commissioner Ono. ONO: Thank you. My concern as was originally presented was the safety of the participants. Okay, so that’s my, where I want to come from. Some of the comments you made regarding this activity versus a church service or funeral or whatever in terms of the use of facilities or the off- streets for parking, I have a problem with that. Because funeral services are not a regularly scheduled activity, whereas the swap meet is a regularly scheduled activity. So you know that you’re going to have a traffic problem on a regular basis, on a Saturday for example. I have a problem trying to recognize your comment about off-street parking for funeral services, which is, I hope is not a, you know, regularly -. 12 EXHIBIT B PEEBLES: The -. ONO: But, anyway let me finish. So I have a problem accepting that as an argument. The other one I have a concern is that you also mentioned that this is a small community, and you’re right, I believe that neighbors know each other. But if the parking is a problem, it may not, I may be wrong on this, but it may not be neighbors, it may be outside people that do not recognize that this is a problem with us with regard to our kids. Because if the swap meet is, it’s like an activity, I mean you know, it’s a festive activity. So kids are going to be there, I’m almost sure of that. They go with their parents, they go with their mothers. I mean it’s a shopping day, I guess. So I guess the concern for safety is not so much the neighbors that are participating or are not concerned, it’s the outsiders that would be doing this off-street parking and they don’t get the message every week. This note that you delivered you said was fairly effective, I liked the note. But is it going to be an every week thing? Are you going to be passing that out every week? Is that going to be consistent? I don’t think so because it’s going to, you know -. I don’t know because in terms of time and effort to do these things. So if the community wants the swap meet and if it’s going to cost the vendors to provide the security, I’m more inclined to think that the safety of the participants is more important to me than the cost in the raising the vendor’s fee. If it’s going to take that to provide a, I guess for want of a better word, a parking attendant, I would think that the vendors should be made aware that this is a concern – the safety of the participants, their customers. Thank you. ISHIBASHI: Thank you, Commissioner Ono. Any further questions? PEEBLES: When she was -. ISHIBASHI: Use the mike, please. PEEBLES: When she was giving her presentation she said she thought she might have a solution. Could we hear that? ISHIBASHI: Yeah. Okay, go ahead. WESTERVELT: Having written the updated permit and studied the parking situation there, there are three parking lots, major parking lots that end up supporting the flea market, swap meet area. And you’re not ever going to change people’s natural behavior to want to pull over to the shoulder, even if there’s a no parking sign there, even if they just drove past somebody in a brightly colored vest. There’s people who still want to park on the shoulder very close to the market where they don’t have to cross the road, jump out of the vehicle, get their stuff, get back in their cars, and drive off. The next closest thing that everybody sees is the way the public takes over the County Hele On park and ride lot every Saturday morning. That is across the street. That is the street that people are walking across to and from the County lot; and we cannot put a person out there and say don’t turn into the Hele On lot, that’s a public space. So in a way the point of putting somebody out there to control traffic is suggesting exactly this. Can’t argue with 13 EXHIBIT B folks on whether or not they can use the County lot across the street. And so it makes it very difficult to solve. There isn’t a single way to control people’s behavior. They will always park on the shoulder unless you put up curbs making it impossible. It doesn’t matter how many signs, how many -. People will always go to the open space closest where they want to be. So, anyway, that’s just my observation on having written the application regarding meeting the County requirements for parking for an activity of this sort. Thank you. NITCHE: May I answer that. We found that it worked very well when we hired a couple of guys, just two Saturday mornings to direct the traffic. It was no problem. They went to the parking areas, everything was fine. That’s all we request, is that they have someone to direct the parking. Again, it’s the safety issue that we’re talking about; and we feel it’s very necessary that they have somebody there with a vest on or something to direct the traffic. That’s all we request. And I think that’s being very reasonable. And they have provided, there is parking but nobody is aware of some of the parking, and the signage is very inadequate. Thank you. ISHIBASHI: Thank you, Don. Maija, you’re the hero. COTTLE: I don’t know about that. Well, I think Commissioner Henkel had the same ideas I had when he brought up Maku‘u Market. This is a farmers market that is working really well. It started out small and it has grown over the years. And every time that the market has grown DHHL which runs the market has grubbed and graded additional area of their property to provide more parking. So I just want to do a quick comparison of the two markets and then suggest some solutions that I’m hearing Mr. Peebles and Mr. Nitche are agreeing on that maybe can be implemented. So, let’s see, the driveway into the market is shown in red; and it’s kind of a looped driveway. There’s one entrance and exit on Highway 130. So all traffic and parking is contained on site. There’s a looped driveway, and then access into a large overflow parking lot as well as two parking lots on the side of the entrance. So the parking lots are shown in blue, they’re outlined in blue. There’s parking here, here, here. If I’m not mistaken most of the vendors park in this area. There’s also parking along both sides of the driveway, right next to the vendor tents. This market is a little bit different because vending is occurring from the back of the vehicle. There are actually quite a few tents. And then, let’s see, the last thing I want to show you is the actual vending area which is outlined in the yellow. So you can just see, yeah, so I’ll come back to this slide in just a minute. So the Maku‘u Market, just a few quick facts, I don’t know the specifics about the number of stalls of this market because it is run by DHHL so they don’t really have to get any permitting through the County. So we don’t have specific records on the number of parking stalls. But I did just a rough estimate and measurement on the aerial image to come up with these figures. So approximately 68,000 square feet is vending area. Those are the vending tents. Typically our Zoning Code would require 227 parking stalls, based on that vending area. And the Maku‘u Market is providing about 186,000 square feet of parking area. So that roughly comes out to a ratio of 2.74 square feet of parking area per square foot of vending area. I’ll try not to confuse 14 EXHIBIT B you too much with the math, but we’ll come back to that in a minute. Maku‘u Market also provides several traffic control attendants. It is a much larger market than the Ranchos Market. I’ve on a typical day counted at least eight traffic control attendants; and they basically move people along the driveway, the loop driveway, and allow people to back up and park safely. And they just kind of keep traffic moving into the driveways, into the parking stalls. They also provide signage on the property showing what areas can be used for parking and what areas are off limits for parking. And then obviously no parking is allowed on the adjacent State Highway. There’s something also that’s unique to Maku‘u Market, and it just occurred to me when Mr. Peebles and Mr. Nitche were talking. Maku‘u Market kind of has a natural barrier from the market area which sits below the highway. There’s a berm going up to the highway. So you obviously have no real incentive to park along the highway or to cross the highway. The Ranchos Market is different cause that area is relatively flat. So there’s no obstruction. So, for example, there’s like some kind of fencing along Kuhio Boulevard to kind of prevent people from crossing the highway and make it more desirable for them to park on site and stay on site, that might serve as a solution, some kind of temporary fencing. So going to the Ocean View Ranchos swap meet, as I said it’s a little bit smaller in size. You have the highway here, Prince Kuhio Boulevard. The vending area currently is outlined in yellow. I also outlined this area in blue for a parking area because they are vending out of their vehicles. There are about 52 parking spaces in this area here; and then there’s the internal driveway into the main shopping center, and the parking area for the swap meet, as well as two accesses off of Kuhi‘o Boulevard into the swap meet site. So you have a parking area in this area also that provides about 50 stalls. And then very hard to see but there’s a green circle over here that shows the overflow parking. And I’m not exactly sure how much of this parcel is used for overflow parking. So, again, the vending area is approximately 30,000 square feet in size. Our Zoning Code would typically require 100 parking stalls for that area, and they have about 104 stalls, if you count the vending area and the parking area near the shopping center. So that’s about 52,500 square feet of parking areas, which comes out to about 1.75 square feet of parking area per square foot of vending. So they’re providing quite a bit less parking in comparison to their vending area compared to Maku‘u Market. And I think that’s why there may be, that’s one of the reasons there may be a problem with people parking off site. Previously one traffic control attendant was provided by the Road Association to prevent parking along Kuhio Boulevard. This is all based upon information both that the applicant and the Road Association has provided to us. The Road Association has installed no parking, no vending signs along Kuhio Boulevard; and I believe they also striped the road shoulder fronting the farmers market for no parking, no vending. Some of the signs have since been damaged or defaced. And as I mentioned before, they are providing the overflow parking lot across Kuhio Boulevard down Maile Drive, but this parking lot is outside of the special permit area. So a couple of conditions for the Commission to consider, right now the permit does not have any, does not contain any conditions related to parking, or traffic control, or hours of operation, 15 EXHIBIT B except for what’s required by our Zoning Code, which is the 104, the 100 stalls. So you could consider adding this condition -- The applicant shall pave for the Road Association –“, oh, I’m sorry, that’s the wrong one. Where did it go? There we go – “The applicant shall hire traffic control attendants to actively manage traffic flow and parking associated with the market swap meet so that vehicles do not park or back up onto Prince Kuhio Boulevard.” The second one, “The applicant shall provide signage indicating where vendors and visitors may park on site.” And the third one, “All parking associated with the farmers market shall be provide within the special permit area. Parking on Prince Kuhio Boulevard and Maile Drive is prohibited.” And, of course, these are conditions the applicant has said to you that it’s a practical problem of trying to actually implement the condition. But I think at least including those in the permit gives the applicant the flexibility to come up with a solution, rather than the Planning Department saying, you know, you must install 50 more stalls. It gives them a little bit of flexibility to work with the Association to come up with a solution to get vehicles off of the private road. Also, possibly considering the fencing, so that vehicles don’t have an incentive or it’s not desirable to park right along the road, cause then they would have to get out of their vehicles and walk all the way around the fence to get into the market. And I think I heard Mr. Peebles and Mr. Nitche both agree that traffic control attendants have worked in the past, so I think that’s a good place to start. ISHIBASHI: Commissioner Moses. MOSES: So, Maija, so if we put these conditions on the permit and allow them to work it out and come up with the solutions on how they’re going to meet these conditions, and then it comes back that, you know, they’re not able to and it still happens, then do we come in and specifically detail what it is that they must do, how big the signage must be, all of those things? Then it comes back to us? Is that what happens? COTTLE: You have that option, if you want to give them the flexibility now. Or right now the Commission can come up with very specific conditions if it chooses to do so. MOSES: Thank you. ISHIBASHI: Any further questions, Commissioners? Go ahead, Brother Don. What’s up? NITCHE: I’d just like to add one more thing. If we could have the picture back up of the aerial photograph of the area. Okay, to the left of the yellow area where the swap meet is now, the Ocean View Partners have dozed off a large area down below there to the left of that. This would keep everything on that side of the highway if they finish developing that parking. Unfortunately they went down Maile and put that area which is quite a long ways away and people cannot, don’t have a visual sight of it. But the other one would be. They could even put the swap meet down below and the parking where the yellow is. But that’s just, that would simplify it and make it like that other one that they showed, which is an ideal situation, the other swap meet. Thank you. ISHIBASHI: Okay, any further questions? 16 EXHIBIT B ONO: Could I ask for a comment on the conditions being proposed? NITCHE: What conditions are you talking about? ONO: I’m sorry? NITCHE: What conditions are you talking about? ONO: Those. NITCHE: I’d just like to add on No. 2 adequate signage too. The word “adequate” should be put in front of that. A small sign if that they can’t see doesn’t work. ONO: Excuse me, these are all proposals. So if you would hang on, I just want to hear his response. PEEBLES: Personally, personally I don’t feel that a traffic attendant is needed. However, if you guys do, we will bring in a traffic attendant. I really would like you guys to come and see what really exists there, if you could. But whatever you come up with, if you want a traffic attendant, we’ll get a guy to stand there as a traffic attendant if you think that will solve the problem. Again, the issue is not about people not knowing what they’re not supposed to. The issue is defiance of the people telling them they have to. But, yes, whatever conditions you do we’ll work -. Because this is a positive thing for our community and we’d like to keep it as much as possible. Thank you. ISHIBASHI: Okay, any further questions? PEEBLES: Can I make one more statement. I think you guys have all read that letter. Legally there’s an issue here in the fact that these are private roads. And now we’re getting into some expense by hiring traffic attendants. If they’re going to be, I’ve got to think how we’re going to do this. I’m going to look for volunteers because businesswise there’s not enough income to do this. And I have, but we’ll figure out how to have one. Okay? But, again, the Ranchos Road Committee at some point is going to have to give us a full authorization, which if you’ve read in that letter, and work with us because it’s their roads. Now, frankly, we own more lots than any of, than all of them combined in the committee. So I’m part of this too. But the committee is the established representative; and we’re going to have to give, they’re going to have to give us authorization to enforce this. You see where I’m going with this? I can’t do it without an authorization, because then the liability is huge. So that’s going to be an issue for them to figure out. NITCHE: Speaking for the Road Maintenance Corporation, I’m sure we’ll be happy to do that. We welcome the opportunity to work with you on this. We’ve tried to for several years and we’ve just had a cold shoulder. We would have loved to have some input into this. We live 17 EXHIBIT B there, we know what’s going on. We have the responsibility; and we’re more than welcome, willing to work with you on this. PEEBLES: I’m just wondering when this is done and all of this is done, I’d like you to stay here. And I will go over some, all the other issues that we’ve had with the Rancho road crew which created civil liabilities for you guys, among many other things. And let’s go over that and come to a solution. NITCHE: I’ll agree 100 percent, but I would like to do it out there where I can have some more of the people. We have 11 people on our board, and they should be involved in this. I can’t just, I’m not a dictator. Thank you. ISHIBASHI: I appreciate all of you coming forward and taking the time to drive all the way to Hilo and address us. It’s very important we get both sides of the story. And your willingness to work with the community I think is key. Now I’ve been out there, I own in Miloli‘i, I’m always out to your guys swap meet. So I know, I know the area real well. That’s one of my favorite spots, is down Ka‘u. So, yeah, let’s work this out and see how we can accomplish this. But I know it’s added expense, it’s a huge expense to you. So -. PEEBLES: We’ll take the expense. The only thing I’d like to ask is if they could get a little kokua for some of the other people. You know, during the week we have people pull onto the lot to sell fresh fish, maybe get some ‘opihi, ‘a‘ama crab. They’re trying to make a living. I don’t care. We don’t charge them. They’re just there. But every time these things happen we get complaints, oh, there’s a guy on the side of the road. What am I supposed to do about that? It has nothing to do with me. Just maybe they could get a little more aloha to the other people that are struggling. You see where I am with this? That’s all I ask. ISHIBASHI: Thank you. Okay, Commissioners, any further questions? Motion is in order. GONZALES: Mr. Chairman? ISHIBASHI: Yes. GONZALES: Down here. ISHIBASHI: Go ahead. GONZALES: A motion for what? ISHIBASHI: We’re adding in this -. GONZALES: To add conditions? 18 EXHIBIT B ISHIBASHI: Yeah, adding these conditions. There are three additional conditions. That’s what it is. MOSES: So, Mr. Chair, I’d like to make a motion to add these conditions as stated, the three conditions set before us. I don’t have to read each one, right? ISHIBASHI: Yeah. MOSES: Okay. To the permit, the existing permit. Am I saying it correctly? I don’t know if I’m saying it correctly. COTTLE: To amend the special permit? MOSES: Amend the special permit with these conditions. ISHIBASHI: Okay, we understand what we’re doing? COMMISSIONERS: Yes. ISHIBASHI: This is amending the current conditions, to include these three. COTTLE: Mr. Chair, I’d like to just clarify one thing for the record. I was actually supposed to take off that “or” part and everything after it on the slide, and I didn’t get a chance to do that. So -. MOSES: Amend that condition. COTTLE: Okay, so you’re, Commissioner Moses, you’re referring to just -? MOSES: Up to Prince Kuhio and the first bullet point. COTTLE: Perfect. Okay, thank you. ISHIBASHI: Okay, any second to that motion? GONZALES: Second. ISHIBASHI: Okay, it has been moved and seconded. Any discussion, comments? GONZALES: Okay, here we go. Now I’d like to discuss. ISHIBASHI: Okay, go ahead, Commissioner Gonzales. 19 EXHIBIT B GONZALES: If we’re going to add these conditions, I would like it stated specifically what days and times we’re talking about. You do this one day a week you said? PEEBLE8: Yes, right now. GONZALES: Okay. And you say you’re open for four hours? PEEBLES: Approximately. They go to set up and close back -. NOMURA: Microphone please. GONZALES: Okay. Cause I don’t want him to be held responsible for somebody pulling on the side of the road on a Tuesday to sell ‘opihi. That’s not, I don’t think that’s your responsibility. I would like you -. PEEBLES: Thank you. GONZALES: So I would like that specified, the hours in there. Also, as far as parking attendants go -- The job that I do, I have to hire a special duty police officer twice a week to secure my parking area. And if you’ve got one special duty officer for five hours, you can charge your vendors approximately $7 a piece more to cover the cost. I think you’ll find a police officer much more effective than people in orange vests when it comes to your problem -- you know, “What am I supposed to do with people who won’t just, hey, I going park here, you cannot tell me where for park?” You won’t get as much of that if you have an officer in uniform. It may run about $35 an hour. So for about $7 a vendor, you know, he can park his car on Prince Kuhio Boulevard, it would probably sway most of your people to go into the parking lot. PEBBLES: I agree. And I’ve hired police officers quite a bit on the side. One of the issues they have is it being a private road, they don’t want to get involved; and I understand that. And some of the other issues are –. GONZALES: I appreciate that too. But like I said, I hire them and it’s for a private parking lot. I mean, you know, within reason they’re going to do what you ask them to do. If your goal is to have people not to park on the side of the road, they’ll do their best to help you with that. And I think they’ll be more effective than people in vests or volunteers who other people would be more than likely to tell them, you know, “Take a hike, I’ll do whatever I want.” People won’t do that to the police officers as often. I‘m sure you’ll get, like you said, once in a while somebody who just isn’t going to cooperate. And as long as I got the microphone, I’d like to see a crosswalk from, at the intersection of Malia and Prince Kuhio -. PEEBLES: It’s already there. 20 EXHIBIT B NITCHE: It’s already there. GONZALES: There is a crosswalk there? PEEBLES: Yes. GONZALES: Okay. Well, I’d like to make sure it’s maintained and, you know, the paint is fresh and it’s visible. I think that’ll do. Thank you. ISHIBASHI: Thank you, Commissioner Gonzales. Any further discussion, Commissioners? Oh, Director. KANUHA: Yes. I’d like to make one friendly suggestion here. And the suggestion would be to replace “hire” with “provide” because I think he has other options besides hiring that he mentioned earlier; and I think it would accomplish the same thing. So it’s a friendly suggestion. Instead of the condition reading “The applicant shall hire,” I suggest that the wording should be “The applicant shall provide control attendants”, etc. PEEBLES: Thank you. Cause we do a lot of donations though OKT (phonetic). Maybe we can get Old Bruddah Wayne to kokua and send somebody out there, yeah? MOSES: I’m sure we could. I’m sure we could collaborate, Bill. There’s no doubt about that. PEEBLES: He takes all the money for all the stuffs, maybe we can get the help. ISHIBASHI: Thank you, Director. MOSES: It’s a friendly amendment. ISHIBASHI: Okay, anymore questions, comments? Okay, seeing none, call for the question. Maija. COTTLE: Mr. Chairman, may I clarify or ask for clarification on one thing? Currently the permit does not limit hours of operation or days of operation for the farmers market swap meet. So, Commissioner Gonzales, you were talking about kind of clarifying when they operate. Do you want to put that into a condition to limit the hours or to just hold them responsible for -? GONZALES: I don’t want to limit the hours. But I would like it to be made clear for Mr. Peebles exactly when we’re requiring all this to be done. And I think it should be during those four hours on, is it Saturday or Sunday? PEEBLES: Saturday. 21 EXHIBIT B GONZALES: On Saturday. And not just the four hours but maybe, you know, a little, an hour before and an hour later, or something like that. COTTLE: Okay. Do you feel like the condition structured the way it is saying associated with the swap meet is sufficient or do you really want to spell it out. Because the reason I bring that up is the complaint from the Road Association said that they’re actually operating on weekdays as well. So I’m hearing a little bit of conflicting -. GONZALES: He’s saying the weekday operation has nothing to do with him. People are just showing up there. COTTLE: Okay. NITCHE: Just so I can clarify -. My understanding is, Dennis, weren’t you guys trying to do something on Tuesday if people wanted -? WESTERVELT: We wanted to but -. NITCHE: But it never worked? PEBBLES: There’s nobody -. WESTERVELT: And we weren’t charging them. It’s just people that wanted to come and try and do it, we let them do it, I think. GONZALES: I just don’t want to come back here in three or four months because someone complains that on a given Thursday somebody was selling something and he wasn’t providing traffic control. NITCHE: If I could I’d like to address that. These have openings coming into the lots. They could put a barricade that when their hours are not operating they could barricade it with a chain, or a barricade, or whatever, and a sign that swap meet is closed. That’s very simple to do. And they should do that. If they don’t it’s going to continue. It’d be every day of the week. It’s getting to be three or four days a week now. It’s not a problem because there’s not very many people there. But as it grows, it will become more of a problem. So they should close off these areas when they’re not being used as a swap meet. Thank you. GONZALES: I’m fine with it as it is. Maija, I’m fine with it the way it reads. But, again, I want us all to understand that we’re holding you responsible for the times when you’re charging your vendors to be there. PEEBLES: Well, as far as the times, -. ISHIBASHI: Use the mike, please. 22 EXHIBIT B PEEBLE: As far as the times, it tends to matter, depending on the time of the year. You know, if it’s really nice people stay maybe till 1:00 or 1:30; and, you know, and if it’s cold and windy which has been a lot lately, people have packed up, like last week at 10 o’clock because they couldn’t keep things on the table and went home. So, but generally it’s, the people start coming at, when the sun is up 7, 8 o’clock, depending on the time of the year and the stay three or four hours, and then they go home. GONZALES: I think we all get the picture. I mean we’re already micro-managing too much. ISHIBASHI: Thank you for that comment. Okay, Maija, clear as mud? We’re good? COTTLE: Almost. ISHIBASHI: Okay. Go ahead. COTTLE: Commissioners Moses and Miyasato, then do you both agree to the friendly amendment of changing “hire” to “provide?” MOSES: Yes. MIYASATO: Yes. COTTLE: Okay, thank you. ISHIBASHI: Okay, Maija, call for the question. ONO: Mr. Chair, clarification? ISHIBASHI: Clarification. Go ahead, Commissioner Ono. ONO: I’m sorry. Who made the motion and who seconded? ISHIBASHI: Commissioner Moses made the motion, and seconded by Mr. Miyasato. ONO: Thank you. COTTLE: Okay, the motion is to amend Special Permit 653, with the conditions on the screen, except for the information after “or” and to change “hire” to “provide.” COTTLE: Commissioner Moses? MOSES: Aye. 23 EXHIBIT B COTTLE: Commissioner Miyasato? MIYASATO: Aye. COTTLE: Commissioner Gonzales? GOZALES: Aye. COTTLE: Commissioner Henkel? HENKEL: Aye. COTTLE: Commissioner Ono? ONO: Aye. COTTLE: And Mr. Chair? ISHIBASHI: Aye. COTTLE: Okay, the motion passes six-zero. ISHIBASHI: Okay, thank you, Maija. Good job. Okay, you’ll be notified in writing. The discussion ended at 11:33 a.m. Respectfully submitted, Sharon M. Nomura, Secretary Windward Planning Commission 24 EXHIBIT B