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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2017-11-28 Game Management Advisory Commission Minutes Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – November 28, 2017 Game Management Advisory Commission County of Hawaii Minutes Meeting Date: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 Time: 5:00 PM Place: Hawaii County Building – Council Chambers I. CALL TO ORDER/ROLL CALL: Thomas Lodge, Chairman, called the meeting to order at 5:10 pm. Willie-Joe Camara, District 1 – here Dwayne D. “Ike” Yoshina, District 2 – here James O’Keefe - District 3 – late Naniloa Poglen, District 4 - here Thomas H. Lodge, District 5 - here District 6 - vacant Bronsten-Glen “Kalei” Kossow, District 7 - here Teresa Nakama, District 8 – here District 9 - vacant Quorum established ALSO PRESENT: Malia Hall, Corporation Counsel Donna Urban-Higuchi, Executive Assistant to Mayor Kim APPROVAL OF MINUTES – August 2017 & November 8, 2017 Chairman Thomas Lodge made a motion to approve the minutes as submitted. Teresa Nakama moved to accept the minutes of August 2017 and November 8, 2017. Seconded by Bronsten “Kalei” Kossow. Motion carried unanimously by voice vote. STATEMENTS FROM THE PUBLIC TL: A suggestion was made by Nani Pogline, Commissioner, to change the construction of the agenda. Take the statements from the public out and leave that with any people who are addressing the commission – that 1 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – November 28, 2017 questions be asked at that time. It’s really difficult for the public to know the topic of discussion until we talk about it. MH: I don’t see anything wrong with you restructuring that – I would have to just think about how to word that for the agenda so next time we edit it - I’ll just think about a different way to put it. Traditionally, statements are taken on just the agenda items. GMAC is kind of a special, case by case, because other things come up during your meetings that the public who attends the meetings should be allowed to address if they feel so moved. I don’t see a problem with that – I’ll work on the language. NP: Nani Pogline made a motion that public’s comments would be allowed to be given at various times during the meeting when they can collect more information and have more opportunities to comment on the actual speaker. Seconded by Willie-Joe Camara. Motion carried unanimously by voice vote. OLD BUSINESS: TL: This is a summary update on the shooting range. We had a meeting with Wil Okabe. I talked to Parks and Recreation today about this issue. The County hasn’t done anything about getting a permanent agency or department as part of the working group. Is it going to be with Parks & Recreation, Public Works? Is it going to be a combination of the two. Roxie Waltjen, Director, Parks & Recreation is out today but will return tomorrow. I will be able to follow up with her and see where Parks or where the Mayor has gone with it. James Komata with Parks & Recreation, who I talked to today about this aid that he’s not aware of this issue. It doesn’t mean that the administrator hasn’t gotten the information. Nevertheless, these are what we have gone through so far. COMMUNICATIONS A. Financial (Budget) Report – No update since last meeting of November 8, 2017. B. Legislative Report: October – in support of HBWS dialogue for Makua TL: Legislative report is under New Business. OLD BUSINESS Shooting Range – Permanent Working Group Members from the County of Hawai’i 2 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – November 28, 2017 NEW BUSINESS The Agenda going into 2018 Game Management Rules Changes 183D; 122-123 TL: I do have some ideas on the rules changes which we have before you, apprentice licensing, we want to re-introduce apprentice licensing – any questions anybody has on that. So let’s go through that first and then I want to get to the retiring commissioners and any of the new commissioners that we might have coming on board that might be here tonight. Chapters 122 and 123 and 121 are rules for – 122 is Bird Hunting – 123 is Mammal Hunting – 121 is the rules in general and we may actually have changes to all three. TL: In front of you, you have a document that says rules change – partial list – the idea of a rules change has been around since 2007 and it went from 2007 to 2015 to adopt a very simple rules change. We didn’t really want to go through another ten years with a rules change so we thought that the easiest thing for us is to try and keep it simple – change the things that we can that make sense to some of us for example – Tony brought this up – so this is really the first one on our agenda – “when hunting without the use of dogs no person shall use the following” and in the rules right now in §13-123E. It says, “cartridge rifles with a muzzle that discharge energy of less than 1200 foot pounds is prohibited,” and we thought we would just strike that basically all together – it serves no purpose – 1200 foot pounds – we have pistol hunting – none of the pistols – same cartridges. They’re nowhere near 1200 foot pounds of energy; yet, we have pistol hunting here so why we even have that – we have lots of firearms that use pistol cartridges. Having this rule in there – it’s not justified with the changes that have come down so far – so that’s one that we would want to change. Those of us that shoot muzzleloading rifles,I have an argument with this minimum bore of 44 caliber, so we thought that we would change that – what the change there would be muzzle loading rifles with less than 44 caliber – these are all prohibited. Muzzleloading rifles with less than 44 caliber regardless of mode of ignition and we wanted to add, “unless using conical bullets of more than 200 grain weight.” That would allow the use of smaller calibers that are very efficient. I have a muzzleloader, for example, it’s based on a Sharp’s 41 caliber and every bit as effective – kills everything that it hits – but I can’t use it. This is one of the reasons why we’d like to have changes. Crossbows is another one – crossbows are not permitted here – we would like to have crossbows permitted in general hunting season – I’m not into pushing it for archery only areas if the public wants to move to get ‘em approved, I mean, these are 3 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – November 28, 2017 gonna come up for public hearing at some point but we said crossbows and archery areas would be for those that have a permit to use a crossbow. So any comments from the public on this? The other thing is the minimum barrel length of hand guns. I don’t know where it came from – except somebody said – well, four and half inches or five inches for a semi-automatic – if you’re a hunter you’re not gonna go hunting with something that’s not effective for you – so for us to tell you what you’re good with or you may be somebody who takes pride in doing things a little bit harder – when you have a little shorter barrel or a little longer barrel or whatever it might be – personally, some of us feel that’s a choice of what you want to use should be yours. Any Questions? WJC: I disagree with the restriction of the short barrels on those handguns - because people are gonna try and use those tiny little snub nosed things {Dialogue} WJC: Somebody who wants to use a four inch instead of – a shorter barrel. TL: Joey do you know why that 4 ½ inches is there. JM: I believe it has law enforcement reasons. All right – well that’s something we can toss around which then brings us down to the muzzle loader size. TL: Joey and I have been talking about Mauna Kean. Right now, we can hunt from a half an hour before sunset till a half an hour after sunset. If you’re on the back side of Mauna Kea, for example, you have to check out of Kilohana or Puu Huluhulu by 7:30. So if you hunt till the end of your legal hunting hours, it might not give you time to get back in and so Joey and I were discussing it. He said that really at this time in the Mauna Kea Game Management Area – this really doesn’t serve a purpose anymore. So that would be the reason why we would want to just remove that and not – even though it’s probably not being enforced, why have it in there if we don’t need it in there. I’m hoping the commission will come up with other ideas– over the next couple of weeks please go through 183D, go through HRS. I’ll sit down with Joey – there are some other things that he brought up that we may want to determine as well and now that we have a State Game Commission. Moving on to Wildlife Revolving Fund. MH: Sorry. Just for my clarification, Chair, do you guys have a committee for rule changes? Who’s on that committee? TL: Jim O’Keefe, Nani Pogline and myself is on. MH: Got it. Thank you. 4 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – November 28, 2017 TL: There’s a Wildlife Revolving Fund amendment that we submitted in 2014 along with the commission bill and it was thought at that time – we’re gonna have a hard enough trouble with the commission bill without throwing this in there as well. Now that we have the commission in place, there are some questions and the last meeting that we had David Smith said that part of the issues that we have with the Hawaii State Endangered Species Act - so that is an issue that we’re gonna have as far as spending money but the federal wildlife funds that we get from the Pittman-Robertson will not do any game enhancement or habitat enhancement for a game mammal. And the Wildlife Revolving Fund as it’s currently structures reads this way, in addition to sub- section C and F, the Department may use monies received in the Wildlife Revolving Fund for the importation and to the management preservation propagation and protection of game, or, I’m sorry, wildlife in the state provided that the department prior to authorizing expenditures or expending funds from the Wildlife Revolving Fund shall first use those funds to maximize the State’s participation to secure federal funds rather than Pittman-Robertson, I mean, under the Pittman-Robertson Federal Aid and Wildlife Restoration Act as amended. The problem that I have with that is that Pittman-Robertson – our money – these monies that go into the Wildlife Revolving Fund are your hunter dollars, your license dollars, your tag fees, um, your tag, your stamp fees all go into the Wildlife Revolving Fund – there was an addition of $10,000 dollars last year for a guy that ran over a nene – that money also went into the Wildlife Revolving Fund. One of the disappointing things about that is that enforcement is supposed to be putting all of their fines and things into the Wildlife Revolving Fund as well – they’ve been turning that over to the police department so the police department – we have not been getting monies through the fines having going to the general fund rather than the Wildlife Revolving Fund. That’s kind of unfortunate but we did get that $10,000 dollars so we were grateful for that. But what we would like to do – now that we have a Game Commission – we would like to have the Game Commission involved – and that would be Ryan from this island and Jon Sabati from Kona. We would like to have them involved in the decision making as to where that money goes and that they have a debate about where that money goes and what it does. And so we have asked – we have changed just a couple of words in here – instead of the Department shall, or rather than may, they shall use monies received into the Wildlife Revolving Fund for the preservation, propagation or protection of game or introduced game – that’s words that we have included and struck out wildlife in the state provided that the Department prior to authorizing expenditures or expending funds from the Wildlife Revolving Fund may use those funds to maximize the State’s participation to secure federal funds or the Pittman-Robertson Federal Aid with Wildlife Restoration Act as amended provided such funds use – such use of matching funds is appropriate to 183D-21 to preserve, protect and promote public hunting. You know, that’s something that is debatable whether that should be in there or not that last section. But the fact that the Department has taken the position that they do not want to do any sort of game enhancement or 5 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – November 28, 2017 habitat enhancement for game mammals – they feel that they have an adequate hunting program that we’re being served by but providing or improving the habitat for game is not something that they feel is part of their game management strategy. And many of us feel that, that is not really the strategy that we would like to take and one of the ways that we can get around that is with having money and the only way – the only money that’s there that we might have control over would be from the Wildlife Revolving Fund so we had – this is back in 2014 – but now that we have a Game Commission it seems to be more appropriate to have the Game Commission involved and the wording here may not be exactly accurate for that but this is a 2014 bill that we have here so it needs to be tweaked probably and we’ll sit down with Joey and see what he can come up with on that for us that’ll be helpful. Any comments? Good, bad, indifferent? TL: Should we pursue this? WJC: Yes. Legislation – Apprentice Licensing reintroduction TL: For the third time – I would like to introduce the Hawaii Apprentice Hunting License bill. What the apprentice license bill does is encourages young hunters – we don’t have enough hunters – we’re losing hunters – half of our hunters here probably don’t buy a license to begin with – you’re waving in the air – oh, I’m easily influenced just in case you wondered – but the apprentice license – what the apprentice license will do will allow you – anybody, one of your neighbors or friends or somebody from the mainland moved in – somebody you know – never been hunting before – you’re gonna go hunting – oh, where you going brah? Oh, I going hunting – you like go? Oh, I don’t know. Yeah, come on. I’ll show you what it’s like. You could take them down to DLNR – get an apprentice license – this is at any age – ten years or older – and you can take them hunting for up to a year and you could mentor them for that year – to see if they enjoy the sport of hunting if they enjoy the activity – hauling out the game – the cleaning and the gutting – if that’s for them – then if they want to get a permanent hunting license they’ll have to take the hunter education course in order to qualify for that – but in the interim – as long as you’re with them they can go hunting. And a hunter Ed program has killed this three years in a row and it was really funny too – the last year they killed it because they wanted it only for youngsters. Nobody over eighteen, ten to eighteen were good other than that and only for one year, we do youth hunts – that’s enough – that was their rationale. The problem is, is that seven or ten to eighteen doesn’t address the new hunter – it doesn’t address the single mom who may have a child that has a relative that may want to go hunting – or take them hunting – and they’re not hunters – they have nobody that they can – or themselves had an opportunity to go hunting and at the last hunter ed conference that they had what they came up with at the conference 6 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – November 28, 2017 was exactly what this bill addresses – and that is to encourage people outside of the normal sphere. TN: The obstacles that you have had over the past three years was directly from the hunters’ education program? Did you have someone or form a committee to go and talk to them? TL: Yes, All the time. TN: And their opposition was constant and they don’t like our program? TL: They feel that this threatens their program. TN: How does this threaten their program? TL: Question on the mind, exactly, how does it threaten their program? TN: Right. And have you asked the questions to them. TL: I have asked the question constantly. TN: So who’s head of the hunters’ education program? TL: Andrew Choy. TN: And he’s here on the island? TL: No, on Oahu. TN: This is Oahu. Who is here on this island? TL: Nobody. TN: Who instructs at the hunters education program? TL: Ryan, myself. TN: Who instructs in Waimea? TL: Bob Okawa. TN: And with all the instructors here you got no support from the hunters to push this through? 7 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – November 28, 2017 TL: No. Most of the instructors that I have talked to are for the apprentice license. I can’t say all of them are. There are hunter Ed instructors that feel that if you don’t go through the hunter Ed course... TN: Does this apprentice program have them going through the hunters Ed instruction. TL: If they want to continue hunting – yes... TN: No, through the apprentice program – is this part of their program? TL: No. TN: They don’t have to go through an instructor’s program. TL: Not as an apprentice. TN: So they will continue being an obstacle to us if our apprentice don’t go through some sort of program. So if we cannot come to a happy medium and if the hunters go through a normal program to get their license through instructions – this apprentice hunting license should have an education program also embedded in the bill. TL: The idea to introduce people to hunting – right now if I want to go take you hunting you’re gonna have to spend fourteen hours – three nights in class. To learn all about hunting before you could go out to see if you even liked it. TN: Right. WJC: This is like a permit so that you can go with a licensed hunter and first of all even find out if you’re interested in hunting. Especially for the over eighteen people who are already adults and they may just be curious on hunting. TL: And that’s an obstacle to recruitment. Because if we don’t involve the hunters education program in this apprenticeship program they’re going to be constantly an obstacle to us. WJC: Basically you can only hold this permit for a year. And then if you do want to start hunting, ultimately, you’ll need to go and do the full course. TN: Maybe we could do a proposal of not an extremely hunting class but a narrow version of safety – of teaching them safety – I mean, not 13 to 14 hours of class – but a safety class. 8 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – November 28, 2017 TL: That’s what mentoring does. They’re going out – Ryan for example – if he wanted to take his neighbor or whatever – he’s gone through the hunter ed program – he’s gone through all the safety thing. You’re mentoring some child, or some youngster or some young adult – some new hunter – in the safety aspects of hunting. So they’re actually getting better training with a mentor than they are for the hunter Ed program. TN: I understand what you’re saying. And I agree with you but coming from the opposition that we’ve had for three years we’re gonna continue having the opposition because in their minds they need to go through some sort of program: safety class... TL: Anybody who wants a hunting license will have to go through the hunter Ed program. We’re not eliminating that at all. So the hunter Ed program, in my opinion, their argument is irrational, actually, in my opinion, especially since what this addresses is exactly what their conference was focuses on last year. The people we want to touch with this are who they’re saying we need to be touching those people. We were trying to get them for three years prior to that conference to do just that and it started off \[unclear\] he said no, you know, we’re gonna lose money – that was their first argument, but we’re gonna have – I mean there’s people that’s gonna be against us – we just have to do a better job of selling it and we have a new director for DOCARE right now – a guy named Robert Farrell and he ran the hunter ed program in California so we’re working with him also right now – we haven’t sent this to him yet, but we are going to – but this is one thing that I – this is my personal pet peeve – we need recruitment of hunters. NP: I get what Teresa’s saying that maybe the hunter education program would like to offer a mini-program – a mini-class for apprentices and maybe that would make them happy. It makes sense. TN: Yes, just a scaled down version. Just for safety’s sake though, we include them in this scenario. TL: They actually are included. TN: I understand, but it’s not written that they are in a mini-version of a safety class? TL: I understand what you’re saying – it’s just like right now we have an online course to take your hunter safety course. But you have to wait three months in order to get into class in order to actually get your license. So when are they gonna hold that mini class. 9 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – November 28, 2017 TN: You see, this is what they look at – it says back here – provided that the holder of a valid Hawaii Apprentice Hunting License shall be exempt from showing proof of a completion of an approved hunter education course. TL: Continue with the contents because they’re with a licensed hunter. TN: I understand the licensed hunter had gone through class but not the apprentice person himself. TL: If they want a hunting license and it’s clearly stated here... TN: I guess what I’m looking is what they looking at and it could be an obstacle for us and it would be our – putting our thoughts together how to overcome the obstacle. JO: One of the things that they were willing to go ahead with was a mentored program for youth with no prerequisite training. How is that more safe than what they’re saying their objection is now – is it a matter of safety or is it just a matter of revenue and revenue can be addressed by the cost of an apprentice license. The hunting license itself is of modest cost so an apprentice or a mentored hunting license could be less than that and it would take away any concerns they have for lost revenue I would think. TL: If the holder of a Hawaii Apprentice Hunting license desires to obtain a hunting license \[unclear\]... TN: I read all that. What I want to do is gain support from the hunters education program to support this instead of going against it so what do we need to do in order to gain their support so this bill can pass is what I’m looking at – so what are the obstacles they have put up for the past few years every time this has been introduced? TL: The obstacles that they have put up for the last three years have been by the state – I mean by the International Hunter Ed Program. It’s focused on getting recruitment of people older than eighteen. TN: I understand but this is one that you said ten years or older. I’m just wondering what do we need to do – how do we word it so we gain their support and not be in opposition to this. MH: Chair, if I can make a suggestion – I would say the best way to garner support is to start a dialogue with them so you have the name of the leader and maybe start an email and just ask – we would like to work with you guys not against you – we all have the same goals – that kind of thing. 10 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – November 28, 2017 TN: Yes that would be a good thing. MH: I think that would probably be the best way to begin a dialogue so that you’re not just at the ledge and then fighting against each other. TN: Thank you for your suggestion. NP: Good idea. TL: This is the Apprentice License Program that we want to introduce, um, speaking and I’m gonna close this off here right now.... DY: Dwayne “Ike” Yoshina made a motion that GMAC support this license. Seconded by Willie-Joe Camara. Motion carried unanimously by voice vote. TL: Let me ask you guys out there in the public – what do you think about $50.00 dollar hunting license. Where does the money go? Right? The biggest problem people have today is that the money they see is not going to where we want it to go. In my opinion, get rid of those stamps and all this other stuff and just have a hunting license fee that’s thirty dollars, never mind all these stamps and other stuff. It costs more money to issue the license because of the stamps. All the others things is not doing anything to serve the resource and you’re paying for a stamp that you don’t get when you do it online. We’ve been wanting to do just a flat $30.00 dollar hunting license fee for a long time. It’s recently come up – OK, look, if you’re gonna go after the Wildlife Revolving Fund – if that passes – why not up the hunting license fee? So I’m just curious what the public would think about something like that? TN: If it passes with the Revolving Fund – the fees go up? TL: You’re thinking that if redoing the Revolving Fund to give the commission – the State Commission – access to the decision making of where those monies are spent – that for the purposes that we would like and that is to improve habitat primarily – you were talking about watering units and these other things – those are the kinds of things that they are not going to do – the State is not gonna do it and – not with their own money – and they’re not going to do it with federal money ever – and, so, how do we get our own money to do our own thing? That’s the question – where does that money come from and... TN: So the fees that are paid now – where does it go? TL: A lot of it goes into equipment – a lot of it goes into bird hunting – none of it goes into mammals. 11 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – November 28, 2017 TN: Do we have a breakdown? Do we have a report? TL: We do. TN: Could it be distributed among the commissioners? TL: I’d be very happy to send you the last five years, if you like? TN: That would be great. That would be a great foundation to start off – because we would have to answer as to why the fees go up and where have the fees been spent. I mean, when we were asked the question – I have nothing in front of me. TL: Right. Wildlife Revolving Fund – I will send you – I have all – I have the last five years revolving fund... TN: You mean the fees that the hunters pay for their license went to the revolving fund? TL: All of it does. Absolutely. And that is the issue – that is the issue. So what we need to change is how the money is being spent? TL: Exactly, that’s right. TN: And we go about doing that how? DY: I think there’s kinda two levels here. First – the first level is whether or not the State of Hawaii actually does game management - if you do any study in the area you would have to come to the conclusion that it doesn’t. And you had Dave Smith here last time admitting to the fact that basically the State of Hawaii does impact management. So at the state level you have to have an administration that says game management is a policy of the state So that is where we have to somehow convince whoever runs this business that it is important that the State of Hawaii have a policy of game management – that is where the state GMAC should be – because all of these things we’re talking about will follow from that. End of story. TL: Did that answer your question? TN: No, but I understand what Ike is saying and we at the County level here are saying where are our funds when these hunters pay their license and we’re saying it goes to the state. TL: Yes. 12 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – November 28, 2017 TN: The County receives nothing from it. TL: No. TN: And so we need to look at the state GMAC and support their efforts in order for those funds to come down to the County. TL: It’s not going to come to the County. It’s gonna come into managing... TN: This management of the state so that we can benefit here. Thank you. TL: I’d like you folks to be thinking about this-in order to use this money more efficiently for us is to maybe raise the hunting license fees. We would like to – if nothing else – get rid of the stamps and all these all other things that you’re doing and just have one hunting license fee that’s thirty dollars – it’s thirty or forty dollars – whatever it is – if the state’s gonna do something for me and my grandchildren – I don’t mind spending fifty bucks – other states it’s one hundred, two hundred dollars some of them. But they get something for their money and, you know, if I get something for my money – hey, I’ll spend it – Black Friday, right? So, anyway, we’d like to have you folks think about that – any comments from the public on this? Yes... TS: I can catch fifty pigs a year but maybe somebody else only wants to go hunting once or twice a year and I gotta pay fifty dollars for that? TL: You’re paying thirty now... TS: You know what I’m getting at, right? WJC: Yeah, that makes sense. TL: No, that does and maybe tags would be the way to do that, you know, like they do in many states, - you purchase a deer tag or five deer tags – or like we have – you can buy one turkey tag or you can buy three turkey tags. TS: Oh yeah – this is Tony Sylvester speaking. Does Joey have any input on that? You could keep the hunting license fee lower and a person could buy, five or ten tag-if you need more – then you go get more and you get charged with a tag. If have to pay ten bucks to go hunt a pig – that’s nothing, right? Now I might go hunting more. 13 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – November 28, 2017 But I don’t know how you stop guys from going and killing multiple pigs and throwing the meat in their bag and... WJC: I think that would make sense if there was some sort of a management happening... TS: Exactly... And that kind of spins it to my next questions,- in reading through the minutes from the last meeting – I missed and I wish I came... WJC: Exactly, if you look at page 8 – that’s right where I was getting to... This is Dave Smith’s policy... We’re trying to manage a good public hunting program. He has no ambition to manage any game and if you read through this it’s pretty good – I mean, it pretty much explains the policy of the people over there on Oahu. Page six: we’re interested in managing a public program. I mean, they’re just wanting to manage – or the guys over there, now, don’t get me wrong, the guys over here on the ground are – in my eyes – a lot different from everybody on Oahu. But, it needs to start in Oahu – we need to somehow convince those people and, I mean, what you’re saying makes perfect sense, as far as buying tags, you know – having a tag fee – but you gonna come right back to that same question again is where is those monies... WJC: You gonna have the public all upset. It’s like now we gotta pay more, I mean, this is something that I’m hearing already like with the PTA thing with the \[unclear\] Sportsman and people having to pay now to go and I hear these grumbles about how come we gotta pay it? They don’t open the place up and da, da. It, I mean, you know how it is – you can never please everybody but I can just see that escalating to something really huge so... I don’t know, I mean, I think from day one Ike and everybody’s, I mean, we’ve been poking this whole what is the policy for our game? And the conclusion that I’ve come to in these five years is that there is no policy for game because – game mammals – because the mammals are in their eyes a nuisance. And that’s putting a value on it, yeah... TS: Yeah, cause I’m trying to define what David Smith, is that right? We’re running an effective public hunting program. What I want to know is what are they measuring for it as effective. Is it the amount of hours hunted or is it hunter success and I had asked, I think, Robert Kramer to see on the state commission level if they could find out how hunter success has varied now that more areas are being fenced, when aerials are being eradicated and stuff like that – so I’m still hoping that someday we can get some data on that, that, you know, cause I don’t know what an effective hunting program is, I mean, what – are they collecting data on the hunting sheets like they used to and, you know, like on Mauna Kea they used to have how many animals were eradicated – how many through hunters and 14 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – November 28, 2017 then what was the success ratio and so forth, but, I mean, is that what the effective hunting program that they’re doing – is it based on hunter success or just, you know, hours of hunting but nobody’s getting anything. I don’t know that and maybe it’s a simple question and it can be answered or... WJC: The way I took it that night was hours of hunting. He didn’t really care about success of hunters and that’s from Dave. That’s how I took that conversation that night is there wasn’t a concern on the quality of your hunt, it’s just a matter of being able to hunt. I might be wrong. TN: I have a different scenario with all the fencing going on the, I guess, the mammals are having to go on private land. So if a hunter hunts on private land is that hunting? From the private owner – is that part of hunting? I just learned that snares are illegal. Through the humane society – under their rules. Is that law or rules? Is it Hawaii Revised Statutes or Hawaii Administrative Rules – snares? MH: Both are law. Both, the rules are considered law and that statutes are considered law. TN: No, Administration rules are rules, right? They’re not statutes... MH: They’re rules, but it’s all considered law. So like even Hawaii County Code – that’s law. TN: No, I understand law. OK. But because of all the fencing now the private landowners – residential for landowners – are having to face the wild pigs and the other ungulates. Now how do we help them resolve their problems? Are we part of that – is that part of game management? How does a residential up in Hualalai Mountain, up Kaloko mountains come to GMAC and say, well, we had the hunters there and it snared my neighbor’s dog? TL: They could just pick up the phone. We have a list – Brian is one of them. We have a list of people who are willing to go out and trap pigs and... TN: I understand that, but the thing is the snare did not trap a pig – it trapped the neighbor’s dogs. TL: Oh, OK, now that’s a different issue, you know, it’s... TN: How do we have a law that it’s illegal and still use snares and the stores still sell snares? I’m not understanding that. We have a law that states – we have 15 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – November 28, 2017 rules and we have laws that says snares are illegal but you still can purchase them... TN: On private property... TL: No – on public property. TN: No, this is on private land. TL: Private land you can use a snare. TN: You can use a snare? The law does not... TL: Not in residential – just in the farms... TN: How does that work – I’m sorry – educate me? It doesn’t state where it is legal. But it does not state – that it’s not – my understanding - I got to go back and read it again It doesn’t state that it’s not illegal on large private agricultural lands. \[Unclear not speaking in mic\] TL: Do you remember when we submitted that bill – the anti-snaring bill? Where we got all our grief from was from hunters – in fact, the Hawaii Hunting Association had a big issue there too because on Oahu these guys do an awful lot of snaring on private land and when they saw that bill and, you know, we were saying there’s no snaring anywhere – and they took offense to it so that actually killed that particular bill for us – that snaring bill – but one of the things that came out of that bill was an agreement and I don’t know if this is being adhered to or not – but there was a twenty-four hour check requirement – so you couldn’t leave an animal on a snare for more than 24 hours without checking that snare. You couldn’t leave them in a trap for more than 24 hours without checking that trap. I don’t know how – but that is something, you know, again, when you talk about the humaneness of what we do – we do have obligations to the game we hunt as well and, you know, cruelty is not one of the things that we’re promoting. WJC: I would say that’s probably a question for DOCARE on the snares – catching the neighbor’s dogs, um, and they should be able to – I would think they would – they should be able to know whether it was done in a legal area or not...And pursue that. That would be what I would tell them to call DOCARE. And pursue that. {Dialogue} JM: To clarify, OK... HRS 711–1109.37 Cruelty to Animals by trapping. A person commits the offense of cruelty to animals by trapping if the person 16 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – November 28, 2017 intentionally, knowingly or recklessly uses, sets, or maintains Section B says a snare, conibear trap, or foot or leg hold trap in an area zoned as residential or any other area where such snare or trap is prohibited by law or rule except under blah, blah, blah, and then the next section would say of federal and government agencies and stuff. JM: A snare, conibear trap, or foot or leg hold trap is what is specifically stated. TL: A caged trap is OK is what you’re saying. JM: Correct Retiring Commissioners – Thank You! TL: I would like at this time to ask Willie-Joe, Ike, Tony – Tony – and Kalani to come up here to the front for a minute, if you would be so kind. TL: All right, so... I know that there has been an awful lot of work that you guys have put in, you know, this is a toll on your families, as well as, you know the work that you do and we – the rest of the commissioners here really appreciate... What? TL: And I’m not good at oratory but I appreciate the job that you guys did, I appreciate the job getting this thing started – getting the game commission going – the work that all of you have done – you’re well respected in the community and you’ve been a real credit, I think, to the County and a real credit to the commission and we actually have established a certain amount of credibility and it’s all to you guys and I appreciate it and you’ve been a really big help to me and I don’t know how to, I mean, I’m know I’m getting choked up and stuff – but I do feel that you guys have done a really great job and hunters in this state need to be appreciative of the job that you guys have done so, anyway, Nani has a few words that she wants to say as well. NP: I want to just say with all that you know, I hope you don’t really retire and I hope you’ll come to the meetings and speak your mind and support us especially because you’ll be free to do so – you won’t have to worry about what the mayor thinks. So that’s my hope. Appreciate you guys really a lot. TL: OK. All right – so, again, I don’t know how to thank you guys enough and I hope you listen to Nani and spend your time here helping us as we go through the future. Our next meeting is going to be January 30. I’ll be talking to all of you – we’re gonna try and have a meeting with Joey here over the next week and get some of his thoughts and some of the things that we’re trying to do and then I’d like to get back together with you folks through email or on the phone or whatever it might be as to the direction that we’re gonna go – but we are gonna move forward on some of these things – so it’s just 17 Hawaii Game Management Advisory Commission Meeting Minutes – November 28, 2017 exactly what – the idea that Tony brings up on the tag fees and stuff. I want to talk to him a little bit more about that. That might be a way for us to do this too and Ryan – if we’re successful – it will be guys like Ryan who will be driving the funding for what they do for hunters and I think hunters would like to see something happen and, you know, we are going to be asking for money if it goes to a worthy cause one way or another, you know, we might be able to call that success, but, in the meantime, with that – I am done – unless anybody has something? Acquisition of New Commissioners MH: Chair, I just wanted to add that under Section 13-4 – what is this – (d) in the charter that if the seats are not filled – so Willie-Joe and Ike – I know Ike says he’s ready to be done but Willie-Joe – you would like to – if your seat is not filled in the next 90 days you’re welcome to come to those three meetings: January, February and continue to be here. I think we’ll be just making quorum – but it’ll be close – if anybody’s absent we’ll basically be out of luck. So I just wanted to let you know that and then everybody else that has left us earlier – basically, from your – the end of your term – whatever year that was supposed to be – you have to just be off the board for two years and then you can return if the seat is still vacant – so, please reapply if the seat is still vacant – I’m sure everybody would love to have you back. TL: Absolutely. NP: Thank you, Malia... ANNOUNCEMENTS TL: Next meeting will be on January 30, 2018. ADJOURNMENT Teresa Nakama move to adjourn the meeting at 8:20 p.m. Seconded by Willi-Joe Camara. Motion carried unanimously by voice vote. Respectfully submitted by: Donna Urban-Higuchi ATTEST: Thomas H. Lodge, Chairperson 18