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HomeMy WebLinkAboutCOMM. 029 1 11 1J:C;A.SP1 •es i'.•. 4 v� ; rsu;rra (Jerk i • Deputy Count (i;,1 "� N'.• '` i�E 1IARRYA TAKAllA.51/1 4lf ""Na; 1e'islalivcA;rditor OFFICE OF THE COUNTY CLERK Coun'TY OF N:1 U'A!1 1111.0, HAWAII 967?0 • February 27, 1979 Mr. Kimiaki Sakata, Chairman • Charter Commission 25 Aupuni Street Hilo, Hawaii 96720 For your information and files enclosed are the October 10, 1963 and October 17, 1963 minutes of the first Charter Commission and the discussion held on ' the alternate forms ofT goy ernmc.nta The second and third Charter Commission' s minutes and discussion onthis issue will also be duplicated and made available to you at a later date. We trust this submission is in order. • : 9y4a,,eiv R. B. Leg spin COUNTY CLERK • COMM- NCI. HAWAII i.0rY C1O.i;TER Cfl: 1'14SION Thursday, October 10, 1963 • UIIT:IC C:.fetorium 3: 30 p.m. Next n, l.ing: Thursday, October 17p 1963 1;oard Rom, County Bldg. 3: 30 p .m. . br. . Y'^.oru I'c):1X . Chal-flo , called the meeting to order . tlembnrs Present: Herman Amaral , lasuki Aral:aki, Bryan Baldwin, Pe%cr G. ,Y,tawt]C7.)rap Fred 1oei:nen9 I.udci.Pii Y,eraspi, Mary Elizabeth Loweth, Kens() Nagatako, Satoru l;! Absent c T+ Sugar•�ara, Al�s�^L�,C. J::<<c`Jsed: Robert. Fujimoto imoto Guest : Yr.p F: 3trice Markey deferred o The business portion of the meeting was defcrr°ed until later© - e • n �,��, ,. �3 of local I. Dr. I�f;ar ny: Digs cum;rs lon o, Cou L..e 2.l Muy1._>;,,er fol.= government. The c4 ty/�—ma{n.' er form In probably y `tyhe -lm�a(1eyst(q/structural • f orf(IyJW/O'L�git re elyq un a.}.).s 6-6Lagt C.:1-t7.7. f.S.he co 1�n c`.l 1.J.).1:JEJ Caa 1,,,m�,gel and -he F.u�s'.L:.age Yyt o , the county o c:-t7. :@ 6 of The Flavl_'./ t r�.iY and O su rn d a ntal:'es ( ( .-oo .nave Fea "4. pf p t + o Y-' .e'� the Ju.L,6� y tnW6�•Ia ��'(?C-may w'�:�:4. kV J�i.�. Q� 1 prob1e= in relation to the city manoir mannersGfuct:u;re . It seems to me ';::at t Ms p.f., i �•g111 ac: 1:,c, talk zo :o'LS-,,,.o 'i c L you !cave last weeck t.Ft:ed ai ou a £upc.1c�.','.:'..c'n CI:�`�.`_ 1 ,l at a�qS.G �Cci b C.f-ic�:in .zA.La ,i..O.:� �sf 4t ?e '.-'�...�.c:.'j G6.,, J'� o what l:''mll bethe . a prol:Cs(Local o-2,; eut£vc in aDy s•frr�_.W i. c tib •.t o t might choose. Thio queston comesu?2C1= the dt:U:3cuss.a,Gf oL- -ty manager is the" pro�Lese ona .t jr"' a R S. YGrCkd: because t: city l executive. - . It is necessary to be concerned about the professional executive because G; the nature of goverament tC '. y o in the strrot mayor council form dir eus eci last_ weet`t the proEe4 S F.Cai - a/ eS:ccut•?ve azpor in tC K ono�.u1u government a as' the managing director .to the /. O m sure�.I' e that ye= discussed all the ZV 1., vt1 1U i difficulties inv-oi�� �:d in this type of arrangcrn nt or the . pr'ofesoionai manager. s The city managed form of government came into existence to meet two basic needs : (1) a need s:or rerorm in the actual . . management of the functions of goverrenent, to cut out the misuse of funds—to !�eep the records accurately, and to do things in an efficient and professional fashion, and (2) - to meet the needs for someone to be constantly there running the govarroDen_t when the part-time council members were not. We find that the cit .-nail tw form of ,overnment almost always goes along with a pnrt-t: mc: coun.cii . The councils which formerly ran most of their business , found that they eouldn` t do this and hired a professional m negor. 1 `3:1113 professional manager focused on those a^pccts of government ' that were tech® nical anr+ scientific. Most of the early managers were engineers because most of the funds spent in local governments were for public works . Therefore, the focus of attention of the pr_'c ession;l manager was on the engineering and rleicntific aspect oL government. . ,.. . T , I , • • ' Today, most people feel that department heads have them- selves become professional to the extent that they do not: need this kind of guidance in management. They - do not need the technical assistance , of the engineers , they do not need the oversight of the budget mans as tete:: formerly did, be- cause procedures are pretty well establ .shed® So the Charter . Commissioners might ask themselves: Arc'.. these procedures (Technical, professional) well-estLbl i..h d in this county to the extent that we dc, not ,need the professional manager with . the authority of the city manager? . • One problem which arises in relationship to a city manager form of government in most communities :.s the reluctance of the council to give up some of the administrative powers . which it has always exercised. This reluctance is shown in t the charter of the City and County of Honolulu, in the fact that the mayor retains unto himself the management of certain . departments--the council refusing to give to the manager all of the departments to manage. The council is reluctant to stay out of the Manager' s business . . Another problem is the fact that because the council is part-time, the manager tends to become the policy leader . in the community alp_hough this is against the Code of Ethics of city managers . 5:hey carry this •code out by not making a�� ' policy statement before it iz made public by the council itself. °' It is necessary to determine what kind of professional , executive leadershi:) is possible by other than the Managing . Director under the strong °payor-council form of government or • by other than the City Manager under the Mayor-Council form. • There seems to be a consensus among City Managers today that their chief role is one of attention ' to the human and social needs of rhe community, to translate these into programs while at the same tim mainta•:ning the efficiency of the government. ' On a problem such as sowers , -for examplethe City Managers . 1oolr at this in terms of not, how much a sewer system costs but to what' extent can we provide recreation for the people at . the same time by not polluting the beaches . The problems of . housing, of caring for the aged, of an:rs l of various areas . of our city are still l problems that need a professional and a somexahat scientif is ae proach In terms of translating hvman needs of the community to the council so they can set a - policy. The City Manager: form has achieved respect throughout the United States because of the Code of Ethics of city managers but one of the th:Ings that seems to bother many people is the fact that city :Tanagers change their jobs fre- . quently .e They do this because they feel ti at ..if the council . is acting in a lash:_on which' is zxr.punin, their integrity, they can nc longer stay there. They have developed a certain type of respect for the professional career executive who is in government. • City Managers once believed in anonymity-- the City Manager was the man who wor.'{ed behind the scene. However, realize that that today, it is :..ass and 'less possible to uaaintain this anonymity, so it' s a question of how to get a city manager who can work with t1.1.c c.ouncil ..so that. t1'jo co,.'):.cil will be making decisions f r the community ra':l:cf:r than the city manager. g , Thus , the role :is chanE. ,lg-•-it:' s nc.t- doc:r.'^as:T?�-'-•^Iore and Ill ve cities are accepting the c ty-Inanaer type. : x_ Dv peor.1 ) feel that it is ir1: pprocp?.:iatc to call the,.n the city i u ;ers at this' time because Ti.... t of them work i i. '.c:gc uroaa areas It has been proposed that •t-his name be changed to Urban r j Adminintr.ator to reflect the need for die urban approach to most of the problems with'which they •deal. • Baldwin: Under the city 'manager type who is responsible • for budgeting--city manager or the council? • Markey: It depends on which aspect of the budget you mean. For the preparation of the budget, the ' city manager is res- ponsible. For getting budget estimates , setting up the • bud get calendar, for getting these estimates into the depart® tents , talking to the departments about their estimates , • attempting to keep them realistic in terms of their program and then preparing the budget document for pr 6sentation to_ the council, the city manager is also responsible . .The council is responsible for enacting this budget, and for holding . hearings on the budget where there are disagreements . . . Baldwin: He is more in the category of a business adminis- trator than a professional? - . Markey: He is a professional administrator with a business orientation when he is preparing the budget. Insofar as the . budget is concerned, the city Administrator is able to lend - to the government what others could not in that he sees this . budget, not in financial terms , but in program terms so that the budget . is the city or county' s plan for the activity of its department for the ensuing year(s) , and then this program is put in monetary terms . He says to the council ,"what k. _nd�g. 'of program do you want for this community for the next year: He then tries to. translate this policy into each departiuent' s . . • responsibility for this particular program. He gives the . council a program-typebudget so when they decide they do not - - �- • want to cut this off, they Ethey9 want, to spend this X20 ,CuQ or know what they're cutting off . It isn' t $20 ,00Q they' re cutting . off, it' s two nights recreation program at a particular area . . that they are cutting¢ offg etc. . Koehnen: What is the extent of the authority normally given - a city manager in terms of hiring, firing, p g g� department heads? . Markey: Most city managers insist that they have authority to hire department heads, fire these department heads--most department heads where there is a City Manager type of govern • ment are Civil Service employees . Sometimes the. City Manager, himself , is a Civil Service employee although he prefers not to be in most instances. The council holds him responsible for the program. . Koehnen: There are something like 22 counties in the United States that have county-mangers . Do you have -any material as to how the counties have fared as opposed to city managers? • Markey: They have fared approximately equal to the City Manager cities . The counties that have taken on county-manager form are the urban type counties that feel that they are now giving . the same urban-type services that cities are giving. Baldwin: Does this *privilege of authority to fire require council approval? -- Markey: It may or may not. If the charter says that he can hire. and fire without Council approval , then he can. The logic for this is that his administrative responsibility is . diluted if he must got council approval to fire people . This is an administrative, not a political pi;oblem. • • Koehnen: Didn' t: you say that the department heads would norm- ally be under Civil Service and he can still hire and fire them? • Markey o Yes , you can fire people under Civil Service. Civil Service doesn' t guarantee a person a job . This is a policy which the council here has chosen to put into effect. Aa • long as he remains on the job, Civil Service only means that ho is hired on. the basis of merit and he is guaranteed certain conditions • Loweth: Re budgetary item. If the city manager presents his program and thereby draws up the budget, is he working more closely in this with the council or mayor? • Markey: It depends on the role of the mayor. In a true city manager form, the mayor is just another council member® He is not a full-time executive. The mayor is just the spokes- man for the council . The City Manager would work for his program and then present this program to his council, but the council has the final say. When the council makes a determina- tion of what shall be, then it' s his job to put into effect. Koehnen: Can you rationalize a system of checks and balances into this? It seems that you don' t have the same checks and balances that you do with strong-mayor and council where strong mayor has the power to veto. Markey: The council will have the power to veto anything the City i�iana ger does , So, the check is there. When certain standards are set up, if the charter says so, then tie are presented to the council as policy. Once the policy has been set, it is the City Nanr ger' s business to carry it out Node: Actually, there is only a one-way che.ch--in the sense that there is no administrator with the power to override or veto any council action. Let' s say as in a strong-mayor form where the mayor- has the power, in certain instances , to veto certain actions of the council. tl Markey: Yes , the mayor is acting then as administrator, but then the council may override his veto. Noda: The City Manager doesn' t go through the veto process? Market: No, he doesn' t have this power. Kawahara: Re budget--when you say that manager presents a program, would this program be only the operating budget or include the capital improvement budget? Markey: It usually includes both. It depends on whether the jurisdiction separates its capital improvement budget from its general budget. It will depend on what the council says to the city manager—whether to set up capital improve- • ment budget for the next 10 years , or a year to year basis . Kawahara: Could you cite some examples where they do set up this vast capital improvement program? Markey: Los Angeles sets up capital improvements on a 10- year basis . A capital improvement budget should be a long term thing, so it depends on policies of the city and county Capital -improvements cost a lot of Money , and you have to plan to spend that much money. • • • Kuwahara: Dccs the City of Lo; Angeles have the authority to Get-up taxes? Markey: Yes . And they determine how their capital improvements are going to be financed--whether by taxes , bonds, etc ICawahara: This interpretation of city manac cr--I thought that the ides. of city manager was brought about because pol.iti- • • c ans Frere thou ht to be somewhat "crooiceci" etc o : and the oily way you would get them out was through safety valve feature that we have---seine systems have recall. • City manager idea is the idea of a professional man—somebody who is an expert in government. I was wondering if we should place so much faith in this one man because looking at some of the people who call . themselves experts in government, they have a lot of academic training but are not much of a "politician." • Markey: The only answer would be who would. be the better expert administrator—the council who had actually no training and • experience or administrator who has had .both training and experience. • Noda; Most of the managers who are hired by municipalities are people from outside the community, generally. Markey: True, because most co,nelunitlas cannot provide than 0 Noda: If you bring in a person from outside, it seams to me that a person cannot feel the temper of the community and for a period of time he would be in a disadvantageous position Markey: This grasp of the community is somewhat overrated It is necessary to know the currmunity with whom you' re working, but the City i annger' s vi ob is not a policy-making job and it is the council' s job to know the temper of the community, to determine what it is that the community wants . • • Koehnen: I take it that you've had some experience with city managers . What has your experience been as to the availability of people, particularly considering our rather isolated position? • Markey: .. I might say that good city managers are hard to find anywhere. They are particularly hard to find as isolated as we are from the mainland. One of the things that create. a supply of city managers is professional schools of adminis- tration dmxn?sintrat7on where they start in as interns and then they work up to assistant city manager and then they go into another community and get a city manager' s position. However, we have found in r_•eczuing for the University that if the salary is right and the working conditions are right, Hawaii can find anybody it wants . So it would not be impossible to find a good city manager. How to tell a good city manager? The way this is done on the mainland is to ask for the assistance of professional associations to help communities to select a good city manager. Managers have their professional associa- tions and professional reputation, which follows them from one job to the other. Nagasako: I have a notion that the• political climate here in Hawaii County and the state and the situations on the mainland where you have successful city manager form, must be greatly different. I cannot see clearly how there won' t be politics involved in the selection of: • a city manager. If the council, for example, is of one party y and if we have a change, ,.n terms of the selection of the department heads by the city 0050 • • C3 cup 0:Yrart zerq p of nuousaaoioS :41utp 3o-floc! v s Daum!, l4Co3g, uli ago °spooU • uToos puo U untl loom 03 Aal om 3u42so32n^ noA zpu.n:s to luomuoAo2 p-notjo xuj kto}l Go ldood oip jo saTuJju uT jiastIIxtl oLV[OAuT pTnotls mtoAun u xo • 7nz m. 4Unoo 1 alontu moq gnoqu suop-f Auu oAutl noJ od aua qumu)i °Al T tYT1tT moo • oql Ol puu ) iom otl moqn .Io_; votmoo otll o3 813 ITom su son2vorfoo .t .aup .Tq 1,un000u oc -piot7 oat? coz.ipa-: TvuoTcsogoad oau Xz L *3uonnLtoAo3 pool u- Aluo po:gso. ociuT o.zu? 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We do not have administrative planning; . The budget is really not a budget if the people are not held to it. If they exceed it, then the council gives them some more money. Tho budget is the administrator' s chief • tool to control the activities that go on under his jurisdic- tion. • • Arakaki: In relation to distribution of spoils in the manager system, can you avoid building a machine in the manager system? Markey: This is why the city manager form can be most effective whore there is non-partisanship , or where the city manager stays into existence and. the government becomes non- partisan. With professiona1iatiof you have fewer spoils . Do you want to provide jobs for political parties to • dispense? If you do, then you do not want professional government. Either you want politics or you want efficient government. • Koehnen: One of the strong plugs which the County Chairman put in .for the strong-mayor system was the fact that we do not have multiple level government here. Consequently, there was a need for political leadership which could best be effected through strong-mayor system; political vs . local Level—can . you refute this argument •yn any way? . Markey No, I can' t. I would agree. There are other factors other than professionalism and efficiency that you h; ve to consider. e of these factors is the transition—the charter. e 1 r �gs`ition from the type of government we have here . t'VY��.E. be a transition Ci•�1J ./ � � what One thing that has to be taken into consideration is to what extent will the people accept the kind of professionaliza.t"!oi'g • that `i`m talking about? Will there be a great amount of re- sistance that will reduce the effectiveness of this profes- sional person—in other words , is the co=unity unity reac y for profeosionaiieatiof? The question is not whether you should • have a city-manager er form or. mayor-council form but how shall you provide for "a professional executive in the type of govern- . went you•.are developing" .Loweth: I e d like to know haw the city manager works when he is epointed by the mayor, when appointed by strong-mayor • system. Markey: This ' is what Honolulu has . They don e t like it. You have a type of professional assistance for the mayor, You . have a man who says he is the manager; but he' s not, because • you have two managers—the mayor and the managing director. And so the mayor manages some of the departments , the managing director same of the departments and the council acts as the ameliortive• body. -The larger cities have same type of govern- ment overn anent as Honolulu—it has never worked because "one man can' t serve two masters ." You have to delineate whether this professional assistance is going to be staff assistant to whoever is in charge of government or whether it is going to be the administrator, himself. . Baldwin: Thin is comparable to our present system in use . here now whore the chairman has an assistant. Markey: Not comparable, because that ,administrative assistant is a political aus is tante, t 0 • cugawnrl : You n,e t.d city managers have power to hire and fire 1. department head .• Markey: Where they had that authority they usually took the procedure of giviirg a very clear idea to the department head of his duties and standards for job and what he is responsible for, Where there is lack of accountability, he talks it over with department heads , and they try to arrive at some decision. • They ere only fired when . it is found that the person is not willing to do what he is hired to do, Kawaharri o You suggested that Honolulu situation didnot make clear whetter he was staff or line man, • Markey: I said it didn' t make clear who was running the city, him or the mayor. . • Kuwahara: In such a situation should the city manager work better if it were line or staff? • Markey: No , it isn' t a line and staff problem. He is always a staff man, but the question is whose staff is he? In the • city manager city, the charter gives the manager cer'ta'in independent authority. What Honolulu has is described as the ' chief administrative officer type, and when you have tha.s• type thedifficulties es you have in you get almost always tato Ci.��i...G�.. v..��. t Honolulu because the chief administrator mini strator: officer is not t�. city 'manager" ncr is he the mayor , and he forgets that he works • either for the mayor or for the council. • Legaspi: Would you say that there would be less need for a manager if there were professional qualifications set within • deplr'tnnent heads? Markey: Yes , there would be less need for a manager if the departments were commonly opera ting to the accepted standard . . of efficiency in government today. . • Baldwin: In your et;,pericnce have you known of any situations where certain standards were set for a position n take the case of departnt head not being professional administrator: where these levels were not attained, yet nothing was done about it. Markey: If you have a mayor, and you have standards for • positions of department heads , if the mayor does not see to it that these standards are kept, then no one will see to : it and no one is going to do anything about it. This is where the city manager is os value because he knows what should go in the finance department, public works department, etc. .. Dada: In this form are all the depart uient heads appointed by the city manager without confi_Lwation? • Markey: That again depends on the charter. There is no such • . thing as a same city manager for every city, Baldwin: Is it. possible for this group to come -up with certain standards for every department we have with enough . restrictions ons or enough specific demands in the .job to set standards? Markey: Off hand, I'd say no. It is possible to set certain standards—but the difficulty you get into in formalizing standards and putting them into a document is. that the standards have to be in terms of the work to be •erne. So you would want to formalize as f:ew things as you possibly can in order not to • • ® • limit flexibility. Baldwin® Is there any way you can hire such a person? Markey: , Yes, presumedly. As was pointed out last week, the strong-mayor council form of government doesn' t guarantee , .that you get cocci govor i:i.lent- -the person can have good gov'ern- n ert if he knows what it is and he has a mind to give it to you® II® There was further discussion among members with regard to the .concept of council-manager form of government. • 1) Q,uoston of nol:S'tical and partisan politics . Dr. Noda ci-E. ea (T) a p;art_iL3 is r,ucsi"ETW,:+o Te involved with philosophy, party philosophy. The Model C osn<ti7 Ch ar er • ' states that parFircTh3] is LsL_d_ y � Ci :: a . O � n . federal or state level and that in most local governments it does not enter into the picture; ( ) political question would be concerned with, ego , districting—on what basis s • • are we going to elect councils cn-won district :e.pr'esen- talion, at-large,large, or as proportional ral)resentta tion? Most '0E -the local problems would be more administrative trative os procedural problems ; it goes beyond district representation. • Voda emphasized that most of our problems in the county government are not based on party affiliation. These are services or needs of people regardless of parties. It' s both political and procedural Since it' s up to the people .to decide which particular services they want and are • "wiling to pay for. • Loweth defined what she thought as procedural and political: the difference being that anything political can become partisan because a party will jump on it and _�.:a.` e it their i�ie L. • platform and if the o her party chooses - tooppose this , then it becomes a political issue. It was believed that in actual practice there is no such - thing as party politics on the local level as far as the County of Hawaii was concerned, that it seems to be more personality politics . . 2) Noda. informed the commission that in preparation for the discussion today , a reading of he Model County Char"�4 er showed that although type model i- of don a co4t3.C� manager form, simply by changing the name to a strong mayor„ the structure could apply .to either forme It' s about the same other than the difference being we have a professional administrator up there. III. The minutes of the last meeting as corrected, were approved Correction to :><tcm D, Page 3r` he rule at present is that • the policy-taking Board of Supervisors has a finance committee which forms the budget. " IV. Communications : - 1) Letter of thanks from the Hawaii Nurses Associations 2) Hilo Junior Chamber of Commerce requesting speaker. 3) Reply from Council Chairman Masato Doi, City -64 County of IionoltaluIie stated that he will be away on the dates we wanted him so he recommended Hom an Lemke and Clesson Chilzasuye. Noda wrote asking Doi to extend the invitation to either one or the other® • • -1p- • • • 4) Minutes of the Kauai and Maui Charter Commissions were received V Old Business • 1) 1\aalohu Community Club: Baldwin suggested that the invitation re speakers for organizations be sent to them® VI. New Business • • 1) PUblic Relations : Mrs .' Loweth felt that we need a public relations liajoen to the newspaper. It was moved by Mrs . .Lowcth that the commission appoint Mr. Kochnen or someone else to be a public relation liaison person with our • k.ewspap er . Seconded by Baldwin Discussion: Kawahara felt that this commission should act as a body, that news released should be released from the body, Koehnen thought that in order to do it properly, we- should have an article written, then get approval of the entire re ccmni a ion before submitting it; it' s very easy to slant news , Loweth withdrew her motion, seconded by Baldwin, -It' was moved by Nagasako that we act as a committee as a whole and for any items which come up weekly, that the commission as a whole decide on what action should be C appointed,�.s t�. _e loi ntea the chair shall S rl L,Cn �rL b Ifu ,/ ..mace the selections Seconded by Sugawara, carried (10 ayes) . 2) TheTheemalission was itf o med that the Board of Supervisors was invited to appear for the remaining ni_ n.g thr ee weeks this month; however, the kind of m;: 3 ;3xv 11Ldepend on acceptance C aTce of invitation by Lemke or (, _z_ y either n October 17 or 24. 3) Loweth proposed that both Dr . Markey and Mr. Charles James be invited for the meeting next week. VIZ. The meetIn was ad3oourned at 6:O5 p.m. Respectfully submitted, • • Chiyono Kinoshita, Secretary • • • . s • ti11 • • • ® MINUTES HAWAII COUNTY CHARTER COMMISSION Thursday, October 17 , 1963 Board Room, County Building • 3: 30 p.m. Next Meetinr,. ThursdaiP, October 24, 1963 • -Board Room County Building 3: 30 p .m. . Mr. Kengo Nagasako, price-Chairman,, called the meeting to order. Members Present: Herman Amaral Yasuki Prakaki, Bryan Baldwin, • ..� ___4aw Robert i2'ttj •im.oto, Peter G. Kawahara, Fred Koehnen, Mary Elizabeth Loweth, Satoru • Sugawara. .Absent: & Excused: Rudolph Legaspi, ICaoru Noda • • Guests o Charles James, Hideo Kun.iyoshi, Elroy Osorio The business por tion of the meeting was deferred until later. L. Mir. Charles James: Forms of Government This question of forms of government is a trivial sort of thing— ,, \ i t' doesn' t maize much difference because an impossible form of government works out pretty well and where the most Scientific- ally cien.ti ic-ally defined form of government may be terrible; e.g. , City. of Chicago has the weakest of weak mayor form of government--50 r district, members of the Board, each of whomis iiGadi1 of his own dist ict, h'?s own ward. It is obviously impossible to run a big city with • this kind of government. In recent years the administration of the city greatly 1..mmDroved., butthis improved in spite ofk 7) the charter, because Daly is thekind of guy( who_takes the te . policat process of a big city and ma eS. � L. wor .,for. him, just � by his (= personal power. il.ere is a kind of man..cNho can make . a very anemic city government into a strong city government. • On the other hand, the city of Cleveland, Ohio at one time had the council-manager form of government--and it took them about 10 years to find out this wasn' t for them. The corruption. was . running wild in the city, there was no coordination of munici?al activities . If you use these examples and these examples. only you can say it literally doesn' t make any difference what kind of form of government you have. It does make a substantial difference in this respect. Although we don' t have control at this time over who is going to be in. office five or 10 years from now or maybe next year, we have an obligation, the responsibility to try to give whoever is going to be in office the foLui of . ' government that will make it easy for him to do the j•ob he' s supposed to doe • We have to think in terms of what is the easiest way of serving the public interest. What is public interest and how do we know it' s being service and how do we know we have the form of government to make it possible to do this? In local government as opposed certainly to federal and maybe the state government, • the public interest in most cases is best served when you have a direct line from the people who arc the owners back to the people who are the consumers . The only thing the local govern- ment does is p:.ovide a mechanism for giving these people what they want. This is where the citizens , the owners of municipal corporation, may give themselves through medium of local government. So in a simple and straightforward way the will of • the people can be translated into the services which they want to get, and the prices they are willing to pay—then you've got a government with people with goodwill, with the knowledge and ability who can manac in the general interest quite success- fully. If you have one which is difficult to do because the line is intcrrunted in too many places or too molly people get into the act and there are too many things to consider, then this line breaks do;rn. In a typical weak mayor form of govern- • ment, this is what hop,pens-" the awareness of what' s going on is lost. One way to fix that is the strong mayor form of government where you take away all the commissions , committees , so that on actions of the Board or council , they accept as they are directed by the mayor. This can be further simplified to almost the point of the town meeting by taking out the head of the government, mayor or chairman of the board, and putting in a direct employee of the county. The city-manager form of government is a very simple form of government, easy for the people to get what they want,. very easy for people to find out Where the weak link in the chain is . • • When you get into big city,' the manager form of government has not been too successful because there isn' t a way that the • other special interest grou:�s and particularly t�.a political c: • parties can male their legitimate needs felt through this kind of simplified organization.® In large cities , manager form is not very good--you dont have the kind of leadership you need to have. In the manager form .of government one of the greatest questions is how to elect members of the council on partisan or non- . partisan basis ,- or by districts or at—large, or by various . combinati ons a When you take away the erected head of the goverar int:,. by not hav:h g a mayor j%or oa chairman of the board, with any realwthe way the council is distributed power ,, then uCZc. s.,�...� s around the jurisdictions becomes IT.U:te and T:,U::e :ym:^•Urtai.1t because this is not the real government—the council is all the government you have. The manager doesn' t have any powers at all- all he woes is what the council asks him to do There are other drawbacks . It is impossible to have a proper political life with a manager type. ►is not entirely im- possible,_ there- are plenty of opportunities for issues to arise, • plenty of opportunity of people to get mad. at one another, plenty- of decisions to he made at the ballot box, under any form of government and I don' t think the existence of the manager is going to particularly disturb it. • I think that Dr. Larkey said last week that usually there is . .non-partisan election in a council-manager foLm of government0 • • It usually is . The reason why the two are partially incompatible . is that when you get a change in party in the council there is an obligation to clean house. There is one thing that' s different in this community from most mainland communities which might militate against the manager form of government and that is we have in Hawaii very few elective officers . There isn' t a good opportunity for a politician to make a reputation here and his opportunity wouldn' t • be enhanced by putting in a manager who would naturally get all the play. Furthermore, -in the general consideration of the form of government, I don' t think you want to make a mistake of forgetting that you in writing a political document as well as a technical document. Politics is the art of the possible. The thing to do is to recognize not only inevitability but the necessity of strong political. activity in the community and ' . . ' ` ® • .S ... set-up your government so that thin political activity can exf.*.rcise in the easiest way. • I think you should decide on the basis of largely, what' s the easiest way, the way most likely the people can get the kind of services they want and once ' they decide. what they want, that that be the kind of government that you' re going to recommend. County overnment as opposcd to city " tgovernment® Last week your cussion was on esscntiaiiy a city norm of government, yet this is a countye ' What' s the connection between the two? • The difference is that the county here is quite different • from the ' traditional county on the mainland inasmuch as it does furnish all local services furnished by cities as compared to traditional county carrying out certain assignments given to it by the state . County government as such is often attacked as being obsolete, an anachronism, and the way it' s run in most states , it is . However, this isn' t necessarily true at all and those counties that have, usually by statutes remodeled their governments to bring some order out of chaos . Power and separation of power. I would -like to suggest that separation of i- ar.: isa historical accident. The separation of power is not a law of nature--it is _just something that worked out extremely well in the American federal government and it worked reasonably well in most state governments . This • . doesn' t necessarily mean that it has to be imposed all the way eo • down the linea When you get a mayor council• government, then . you get the question--the committee says how much separation of powers do you want? Right now there is very little, This is characterized by the weak-mayor form of government. Also , there is not •much separation of powers so people will say , "tJe ought to separate executive from the legislative. This does have the effect of strengthening position of the mayor. There are a few criteria you ought to use if you want to move in this direction: 1. The mayor ought to be elected m 2. Whether he has a vote in the council . . "rlere he does . This is typical of weak-mayor form of government. If you want -ate him from the council. then take away hi., vote to separate P � in the council.e • 3 o Has he a veto? you're strengthening the position of the mayor so certr,ii.l.:r you don' t haw:. -, L,at;,.tien of: .power by . giving h.:;m moye pm7er by veto. He' s got one vote that counts as mu,Th as the whole council put together, which is not separating power 4, Confirmation of appointment. As soon as council starts e ' 7 confirming an;,ointmentn� v they're acting as an executive; • so if you want to separate this and to strengthen the mayor you don' t want to have confirmation of appointments by the council . 50 Existence of other elected officers , independent boards • and other officers appointed by the council . This usually . distinguishes the various degrees in strengthening executive in state levels . You dont have such a thing as strong or weak mayor form but: you have various degrees • of a mayor-council form. . bo The other main thing that distinguishes 'his strength, is the authority to prepare the budget. Host of these things • eventually run down to matters• of - dollars and cents . If the mayor cannot prepare executive budget, cannot • 410 execute the budget as passed by the legislative body, then you don' t: nave an executive. The council-manager form has no separation of powers . The council is responsible for all activities ; adminjstrative and legislative. There is separation of function between legislature and administrator but the manager has no power' at all. lie does what the council tells him or he gets, fired. . (MrJames distributed copies of statistical material taken from the Municipal Yearbook: the form of governmc:.at in cities over 5 ,000; nu aur of ci? s that have mayor-council form, etc . ; . salaries of municipal officials ; types and methods of council • managers elected; powers and selection of mayors , other in- . formation.) • Arakaki: Will you elaborate more on the various commissions-- advisory and semi,-autonomous as applied to strong-mayor and council? James: This is a matter of definition. If you' re going to have a strong mayor, manager form of government, then this is weakened to the extent that if you have any autonomous boards and commissions—it is true that many utilities are operated wider boards and co: J.ssionns- but you can' t really say that • your mayor or manager is responsible for the operation of the city when one of the big county functions is practically outside • his control. As you have •this you' re falling quite a ways short of this executive type of government. The advisory agency-nothing is .wrong except that they usually don' t do very much. • - K.oc n.en: Do you have any experience or research information available on this council-manager form in the case of counties In existence in the United States? James: - All I have is a general idea about it, Orange County has a manager—this is rather exceptional case- because this is a big city and therefore it has to be incorporated . There is also Petroleum County in Montana;who is also the county assessor, county treasurer, county sheriff, by special state law. I don' t know whether it works or not . Loweth: Dr. Markey delineated the areas procedural and political and seemed to rely quite heavily that in local situation things are procedural, not political. James: I can' t imagine a situation that doesn' t have both-- e.g. , building this new county building in a given site: this would be procedural sort of thing. Preceding this , where you' re going to put• it, if you happened to be an elected political • officer and ou do have somethingtoabout: it, this would ysay not be procedural at all. Once you set pattern it is procedural , e.g. , Board of Water Supply rates , collections . Nagasako: In terms of success or failure of city manager type • of government you did mention the small city situation, the large city situation. Will you describe the community situation in which there are factors_ which will bearon the success or failure of city manager form of, government? • Yames : I have to do it largely by intuition and speak in generalities . In the large city—it may be a function of dominance within the state—council-manager form of government would be very difficult to administer in Honolulu because • • Honolulu is such a large percentage of the state which e dominates political U1:•gani.i:L1tious , also bu:ai�hasa Ut I�i111�c:at:Lon labor organization, all focus almost on City Hall as it does on Iolani Palace, and what happens there has a great deal to do in what happens in Washington. Therefore, if the' people . in the City and County of Honolulu don' t have a political focal point such as they now have in the mayor, maybe this won' t work so well. This is my own interpretation. Another situation is one' in which you. have a reform movement coming up , after you've had a very backward or corrupt govern- ment, so its recall all the way--of mayor, council; etc. The . reformer getss eager and the well-motivated bunch of people who • • • really have very little connection with politics , is really . jamming down somebody' s throat. As soon as the city can recover from the shock of this ref orm movement, they' ll likely to move not only against the reformers but take reform right out with it© . • sn° Problem we might have in view of our isolated position Koehnen:. might here in attracting qualified city managers. and the availability of city managers . James : You would have less difficulty in gettinga city manager • than others in the United States . The attractiveness and • particularly the idea to work with a new charter--you won' t have any trouble at all. Baldwin: Do you have theories to fall back on, perhaps some observations where in counties such as we have here with districts so scattered and sometimes isolated--do you have any thoughts on method of election, whether • it be by districts or at-large? James : T dont think election at-large, because you have too much concentration of votes s in Hilo, too wide a scattering of people with demands on county gover went° T think it would be wise to guarantee people outside of fire -ir;nediate Hilo arca a certain number of representatives on the board. There is too much voting power to too few people. The mayor, however, should be elected at-large, unless elected by the council. • • • Commission form of f7,overnment. You have in effect, five. . . -uEct.IonaL mayors , eacn: -i cl arge of one part of the govern- . • menta, no standard form of getting together . each one is a political officer in his own right. Put them together, they become a legislative body, and they really can' to . do anything together except maybe appropriate fund. • Loweth: Then did the council manager form grow out of council? James : 1 don' t think exactly—it developed with it. 110 Supervisor Osorio • • Yotie re doing a commendable job and I think you're in the right track. Regarding, home rule and government reform, in this particular case, we`re talking more about government reform and reorgani- zation. We're not ready for home rule . As long as we have control by state statutes we will never see through home rule. Three most important areas : 1) Whether or not you can take aartis'an politics out of whatever form is. selected. Will it • e possible to have those running for county government . run on non-partisan has s? In county government lore is no room for party politico , -the. case of your ccumy building bc'ng one of them. 2) Matter of apportionment. In setting up the manner in which your councilmen or supervisors or chairman is celeste 1 is very important. We have to get away from West vs . East thing. We can get away from this form by proper re- apportionment. e- apportion:ment. As tar as voting for a person, I like the idea I k< . of the person comii,t; from a district, hut a larger segment of N the population voting for him as. well, However, perhaps with kms. the stipulation that you. must be a resident of, e.g . Hamakua ';• to rep resent~ that district- -but you' re not responsible for just ' one district but for the entire isInd0 3) Form of government, strong mayor vs . county-manager. I'm in favor ef `:he county- manager form of government. I feel that council-mLaocger form of government is one taken away from politics , running as • .individual away from either party and one of electing suchpsople by proper apportionment. • Koehn.en: We have been going along with the assumption that both council-manager and strong-mayor form actually has in thesis • the separation of administration and policy functions . And this is perhaps less true in the council-manager form although it is still true in one sense, in that your administrator administers but he has no executive-legislative voice contrary to our state • and national system. Do you definitely favor such a separation? Osorio': I'm all in, favor of this, of separat-;_ng administrative • - and policy-making. I think this can be worked through even with council-manager form of government `':here separation can be made, policy-making vs . administrative. You were using terms that again may mean defining administrative vs . policy-making, procedural vs . political. James : I was trying to distinguish between the term separation of powers which has to do with real powers of government with • . mere distinction. between power itself, or the distribution of activities whereby the council is going to have- to decide what to do, in the long run. And the how to do it is assigned to somebody else, but this is not really separation of power. In the local level, council vs . manager form of government, manager isn' t at all likely to come out with a fundamental political • thought.- Osori.00 I still see a separation compared to a strong-mayor form of government where, in the mayor s:i•::uatton, he is elected, • he develops his own program, he sets up hi.s own budget, he goes - to the council where he submits for approval or disapproval . In the every day administration function of operating county government, there is a separation. You can separate responsibilities even in the county-manager form of government. James : I don' t think you cane • - . Koehnen: . When the supervisors were here we were basically discussing strong-mayor form and the question carne up as to how they felt about power of veto if under the strong-mayor system. Osorio: If yoti were to recommend a strong mayor form it should be a veto and also •a right to override the veto. Loweth: You said the program is spelled out by the council under the council-manager program which means in effect : the budget is done by the council. What is your feeling as a. supervisor about~ the ability of the council under a strong-mayor to declare the program? 411 Osorio: When I said the council sets up the program then you • would IJ3lI1(_2 p,lcy )lr`• 41 p budgeting Al ^ total p rn(;r c e The tanager could do this himself. He is a full-time man. Ho can then present: it to the council . I think it would work as strong- mayor form, but not as a one.-man show . because than he would have the say, where the money is coming from. Arakaki: At the previous meeting when other board members appeared, they said that. they would like to have consent and approval for appointments by , ; e strong mayor. Can you explain your position on this? • ' • Osorio: I think my position will be pretty much like Mts. Hale L s . As far as department heads , if I were a mayor, I would like to appoint my own department heads who would be responsible. to me only, and if they failed it was because I failed. There are certain ^Y a. 1 C0i277ssiC1s I think, Cb ^C1 should bewith a • .. . . the cnnsent of the Eoardo These are rc?r_esentative of districts so that a councilman from a particular district is perhaps in a better position than the mayor to make a recommendation. The advise and consent in commission, yes ,- e.g. , Hospital Managing Board, Board of Water Supply. • • Kawahara: Do you suggest that where the chairman appoints various department heads that you suggest in case they didn' t operate very well, that department heads go out with the appointing person? In case of council and manager—where a manager doesn' t operate to the satisfaction of the people would you place the responsibility on the manager or the council? Osorio: There may be situation.where majority of the council are for this person--it seems to me then that those responsible who form the majority should be held, responsible to the people. Kawahara: A point was made that the city or council manager form will take government out of politics . I presume you meant partisan politics? Even if you do have this as' nor- partisaf council , wouldn' t you still have politics Osorio: I meant partisan politics . I can' t see where paving a street, putting up street lights , selecting a site for county building, urban renewal , whether I as a Republican or I as a Democrat will vote one way or another because I belong to a party. When it comes to philosophy of party, one vs . other, it .doesn r t. exist in county government—perhaps it stops at the state level of the legislature. Kawahara: Under a non-partisan set-yap, would you have staggered terms or would they be elected at the same time. James: There is no necessary connection--in most cases staggered. Loweth: With regard to sewer, light, road, not necessary parti- san san political issue--in the example given by Mr. James , trash or garbage collection seems to be one that is . It' s free enterprise vs . state collection and I think you can bring this into almost everything . Is putting out sewers to bid on a private enterprise basis with private stocks or govcLament putting in Sewers? Osorio: This free enterprise isn' t necessary in total a Republic feeling -- I'm speaking - more in issues such as civil rights where there is a distinction between, particsk or foreign aid. . - -7- • • e• • Fujimoto: You favor city manager type of county government. With that whai. would be. your idea of the term of office for councilmen? • • Osorio: Councilmen for four years ,' staggered terms , higher salary. . When most of the responsibilities fall on the Board as it does now, they should be compensated. ' • Koehnon: One possibility under the county manager system will be to put department heads under Civil Service. What are your thoughts , on this? Osorio: I've never given this any thought. • • Keehnen: Perhaps you get the best individuals this way, Vhe available local talent. Locally, we think of Civil Service as being entremely protected and being almost impossible to remove a department head and this is not actually true. Osorio: If he is under our present Civil Service law it is difficult to remove . I still feel department heads should be appointed and should go with appointedauthority. • • Sugawara: In your first statement you said the members in the • : council should run on a non-political basis . In the following • Primary election, the voters must take one party. The main philosophy was to generate more participation by the public• . In your statement, doesn' t it conflict with the philosophy? Osorio: If the intent of the law was to generate partisan support and no active party politics In primaries , then lem wrong but I don' t believe that it will generate that much party action by next primary. I think you' re going to find that the percentage of voters in next year' s primary is going to drop considerably. • Loweth: You mentioned four-year terms to be staggered terms i• every two years . . .so you have a continuity in council? Osorio: Yes . This would be a chaotic government if all seven of us were removed at one time. It takes time to learn the goverrpent. • • • Baldwin: We hare quite a conglomeration of boards , commissions , powers . Osorio: I think if you're not going to give commissions some real power there is no sense in having them at all. • Baldwin: This would enforce the idea that commission members should be with advise and consent. • 'Osorio: Yes . • Kawahara: Where you have commissions with very long . torms9An terms of your Board (every two years) maybe that' s where your • difficulty lies . Either reduce the terms of members of the commissions or increase the terms of the Board so they would coincide. • Osorio: Every commission has different term of office. ITRA has appointments which run - 5 , 4, 3 , 2, 1 yr . ; Civil Service two years and then you cannot serve. It seems: to me there could • be a general tenure of office for all commission members . Kochnen: I have two observations to make: 1) Non-partisanship might resolve some of the problems ; 2) In going through the list . - A ` ® • of con .s P ons and or"d F.nrrnces , in read4ng some ordinances , there seems to 1;a soma vr.iy VagUe wordj_nss in them as to what powers these commissions have Whether: they're advisory or regulatory is not clear because the wording is extremely vague. • Osorio: • This is the problem that came up when we were trying to discuss or decide on mileage allowance—to advisory or regulatory committee. I den e t know which i s which • Baldwin: In all these activities where commissions are involved • • do you think any commission is not necessary or note advisable? Osorio: We got rid of ones the Naalehu Community Ccmetary Commission. Some of them are real hard-working commissions ; Fujimoto: Tenure of commission members-°I think the problem now can be changed if with the change in administration every- body gives courtesy resignation. Osorio: It seems logical to me to give appointing authority right to set-up his own commissions . • Kawahara: This matter of advisory and regulatory commissions . . When you set-up departments , do you have any suggestions about how you would rank the d 2_' .::. Gnu departments salary-wise, etc? According to the charter, department head gets a certa:3n size s` gLrrO Yet one CLi ' . _ a rGo Z may handle more, has more be responsibility thano than ^ o. other and they are rated together bsor iot ,W _ll it be within ydi,r- scope of responsibility to recommend this as far as departMent head salaries , chain of command go? • • Koehnen: It is my understanding that we can recommend organization of departments but as far as salaries , no. Qsora io° In your charter could you point up the' relative responsibility of different ?eo rGaonts? If you can , then it will be up to your charter ccamission to see which department is more responsible , taking into consideration the fiscal and responsibility to the county as a whole. Kawahara: Often. the budget has been setup once the form has been • setup, that once a certain department gets a certain amount • for his department, subsequently when he goes to the legislature • from that time on certain employe es will always get certain • salaries . Should we raise or lower some of these department heads? Osorio: It may end up that as a result of consolidation you' re • going to bring these top department heads on equal level. This would be an ideal situation. Fujimoto: On the state level all department heads have similar size• squares but the pay is not the same . I don' t think the . ranking of a department determines a department head' s salary. James : The relative rank of department head suggests that you not designate any departments at all, that you don' t create any departments by charter r • 411 recommend that you do the same for your charter—leave it up to the council or I'oard to o gan:)ze the administrative branch This is a fluid .tort of thin and you can t go to the people every couple of years and ask them, "can we abolish a depart- ment, and consolidate a department." It doesn' t work. Arakaki: What about limitation of departments? James : This is a good idea and that is in our state constitution. • This would be a reasonable thing to do but perhaps leave the definition of it to somebody in the fcitur e so it can be charged again by council action.. . Civil Service status of dcr;, r tment heads. I disagree with Dr Ea cey o I uon 't tank any case can oe made for Civil Service tenure for department heads, again, on the basis that exist. centralization, ta•�ard. If yOU,6 '.T:G going to move toward administrative responvzbiIi„y,then youvGgOtto move people with it. All it gets is a lot of bickering for no reason at all. see no reason for having it under Civil Service Nagasal:o: Will you briefly sty marize the circumstances or reasons for change in city managers? James : 1) The common one is the manager feels he does not want • or cannot in good conscience do what the council wants him to do Difference of opinion between cou.nci_l and manager. 2) There is a constant turnover in the profession anyway. They start in small towns , then move on to larger cities , a chain of promotion within the profession. 3) Boredom. III. The minutes of the las tTMmeeta tr, as corrected, were approved. Correction to Item ID , page U 1 '°LC,fet h defined what she thought aas . © a the difference being that anything procedural cnn become partisan. . ." IV. Communications : 1) Letter of thanks from Stanley Ha Yoshimoto0 2) Mr. Bennett replied that Councilman Chikasuye will speak to our commission on October 24. It was moved by Baldwin that next week' s meeting be held at the regular time and placed Seconded by Amaral ,, carried (9 ayes) 0 V. Old Business : The Chair appointed Mrs . Loweth to extend our thanks to the Hilo Tribune- Herald for the fine publicity received in Sunday' s •pape:r c VI. New Business: 1964 Budget It was moved by Baldwin that the same budget committee that prepared the 1963 budget. prepare the budget for 1964° Seconded y Amaral, carried (9 ayes) The following suggestions were received: 1) T(awahara thought we might look into budgets of the other two charter commissions; 2) Baldwin pointed out that next year' s budget will be considerab- ly higher, with travel for public hearings , legal counsel , full- time secretary , etc . ; 3) Loweth reminded that at one time we discussed having a paid resource person and Leat. Fre discuss this before drawing up a budget; 4) regarding resource personnel , Rocrhnen suggested I.1r, Charles James , , who is willing and available to give us a hand. . • VII, The irneetirns act darned at 6 : 15 p.m. >• Respectful l/y submitted p ChiyPotlo Kinoshita , Secretary •