HomeMy WebLinkAboutCOMM. 029.1 \ v YASUKI ARAKAKI
R.B.LECASPI � " {;
County Clerk. 4�+ 1�* `�' Deputy County Clerk
\in ��f� HARRY A. TAKAHAS111
°Nt `• •• .°'�� Legislative Auditor
wE�OF.N.
•
OFFICE OF THE COUNTY CLERK
COUNTY OF HAWAII
HILO, HAWAII 96720
March 1, 1979
Mr. Kimiaki Sakata, Chairman.
Charter Commission
25 Aupuni Street
Hilo, Hawaii 96720
•
RE: Communication 29
•
As a follow-up to the above-numbered communication,
enclosed is the second and third Charter Commission excerpts
of minutes regarding their respective discussion on the
alternate forms of government.
These are being submitted for your information and file .
s , /•
R. B. Leg spi
COUNTY CLERK .
COMM. NO.. Z9•
•
•
• TAMA (cont'd.): en with the phroae where I mc ned to You that the
initiator ve referendum and reca l be a matter of being
also instituted. Many of my presentation viii be that few of these things will
• have to coincide together in order to have that type of government we would like
to have. Just getting one of . my presentation -- I don't know whether it would be .
beneficial to the people or not. •
e
•� �: Mr. Yamada, If I heard you correctly, you mentioned the fact
that all commissions should berve only as advisory, including
� .,y the police department. .
•
YAMADA: • Yes, this is what our Chamber felt it should be.
AH CHIN: And that the department heads, as well as the deputies would
• be appointed by the mayor.- Who would be under your proposal--
. e . Who would be the policy making body, for example the citizens could go up to?
YAMADA: The mayor and his department heads. •
.i
- CBnIRMAN: Any other question? . .
HENRY: One question more. You spoke about the mayor and also about
_ , the council. Do .you feel any other officials should be elected?
- Today we have the county attorney, the treasurer, the auditor, the clerk.
_ r YAMADA:: I think the mayor and the council. I feel, personally, that we
maybe should have 5 members rather than 7 mbmbers, but the rest
. • of the members felt we should have 7.
CHAIRMAN: This is not a question, Mr. Yamada. It is a reaction to a
statement you made in your introduction. We have been trying
to find interested groups to whom we might send minutes or notices. We might have
. overlooked your association. Would you care to receive our minutes? ,
YAMADA: .We certainly do, this is one of the comments I made at the •
very beginning. We receive literature from lots of other dif-
ferent areas. We never did receive anything from this commission here. This is
• the reason why I made such a statement. It is •difficult to make an intelligent
presentation so that we know what we are talking about so that you can also be able
to ask intelligent questions. We can't do it unless we are informed what iC going
on on the outside. We would appreciate it if we could be included in your mailing
list. Mrs. Saito is our secretary. We are in the Hata Building.
CHAIRMAN: Any other question? '
.
SHIKADA: I noted with special interest your entire presentation, however
....� most of your proposals for the at large council make-up. My
question has to do with your organization. Do you in your organization, embody
• ' • membership from areas outside the city limits of Hilo?
YAMADA: Yes we have, but we dont have too many. We have members in the
country, but, I'm sure you'll know what I am talking about, it:
is very difficult to/N ple to come in, moreso when they have to pay their dues
• attend meetings. Even at a public hearing we don't have enough turn out... We have. .
360 members current with their dues.
SHIKADA: • Thank you. •
CHAIRMAN: Anypne else? Thank you very much, Mr. Yamada., Any other citizen
to the microphone?
z ,
{, d
FRED ZINCER�« .Q474: �7,'"
�. •
818 Kukulau Road R
Hilo Hawaii (Business consultant and Analyst) .
.
My primary interest in this hearing ond in the form of the new county govern-
• ment is adequate control and the coat of operating the county government. I have
two propocala, both directed nt the form of county government we might have, and
the attempt to offer ideas that will ensure a more efficient low-cost operuLion of
' «id-
•
E nt'd. • 411 vernmen . Most of us can a that the' primary� function
ZINGER (cont'd.): go t�
of county government is to operate a group of service° for
• the public and the objective of the government would be to provide the required
level and quality of service at the lowest coat. There is very little political.
theory involved. Most of 'that is a straightforward job of determining what ser-
' • vices are required and what is the efficient way to provide these. I have dis-
euosed this with Mr. Kcehnen and with some others here this evening. The trouble
some feature of a political government is the rachet effect. The cost of running
the government, or a department of the government, tends to go only up instead of
- down because it is politically very difficult to cut costs, especially if you
. talk to an elected official about cutting costs, he is very wary of this; Now, '
this is not the fault of the elected official, it is a feature ,of being,oituated
in being elected. .
My first proposal, I would strongly favor a city or county 'man-
ager form of government because the job of operating a group of services effi-
eiently is completely enalagous to a business operation, with one important excep-
tion. It doesn't have the iron fist of the profit' or loss control hanging over it.
. In all other ways it has the same job,' to provide services to the public at the
least cost. If we had a county manager who --. a professional manager -- who would . •
hire •and fire department heads and people working in the government and delegate
. authority; and if we had a commission or board who would act as the policy making
and objective setting group (I think an important part of my proposal is this:
- that the board , or commission, when they decide what services they'want the county
to render and how -- or what they want to spend), that they present this directive
• to the county manager in the form of a public, printed, directive, once a year, or
once every two years. The point is that it is.public. This is. the board's direct-
ive to 'the manager. These are the objectives we want "you. •tor:achieve. Then the t;.
public will. have the opportunity to evaluate, this directive and,, :therefore, decide - '
whether the board members are doing a good job. The other thing that the public
is interested in is does the county manager achieve .these objectives or not? If
• he doesn`t they will ask the board, what are you going to do.about it? It is
important that the board very consciously and specifically and publicly ley.:down
written objectives 'in dollars and cents in quantity of terms; what they want;.,.each
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department to achieve during the budget period. Perhaps this could be achieved .
under your so-called strong-mayor form. I would favor this if for acme reason we
,,. could not adopt the county manager I think the, next best thing would be a strong
: mayor. He would have the power ,to hire and fire, the individual authority to
1 .. appoint and remove, and the board, in that case would be strictly legislative.
They would lay down -- let's call it the budget--and then it is up to the strong
n mayor or county manager to achieve it. If he .doesn't it is the responsibility of
the board to remove him or to take any other corrective measures. The public,
• '• � • has the opportunity to do two things; to review the public directive that the . ''
board gives to the manager, and they have the opportunity to watch the county '
manager or strong mayor achieve these objectives.
__~
• Now, the second proposal is also an attempt to gain some control
over this rachet effect of costs always :increasing. A very well laid out budget is
an essential part of good county government. This should come with whatever form
of ,government we have. Assuming we are going to have a budget for all department
"Operations, what I would like to see is what I would call a watchdog commission,
' or a budget commission. In other words, this is en autonomous agency not. coandcted
. with the administration of the county, perhaps separately elected. . Their sole .
job is to review the budget as presented and proposed to determine whether there
• • . are any unnecessary expenditures or investments in it. Whether there are any ways
that an operation of a particular department can be reduced. Whether there is any .
. way to improve efficiency in the government. If these. people can find such a way
to lower .costs -it is their responsibility -- I don't know if you want them to hold
veto power over the budget -- but at least they should have a strong voice in •.
.` •
criticizing the budget and controlling it. The department head might know of
( - several ways- he can save money.- There are many ways to reduce labor and therefore
J save money in the operation of the government. That means eliminating jobs in
government, which most departments are extremely reluctant to do. However, ' the
. oo-called watch dog commission would not be effected by the loss of jobs to as
great an extent`as would department heads. I hope this will be the situation.
Those are my'two proposals. 1.. Strong mayor or city manager '
form of government with a publicly, laid out cot of objectivea to meet, and
. • some commission, or individual, or somebody or some autonomous group who reviews .
and criticizes both the capital budget and extension budget and attempts to in-
stall coat paving devices. No ono else in countygoverument is in a good position
.
.
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ZINGER (Cont,'d.):�o do this. They recognize otunitico, but they cannot .
. enforce 1t.. Eliminating jobs o politically very dangerous.
WAGNER: You favor a budget commission. Possibly elected?
SINGER: I don't know any other way, because if they are appointed by
the mayor they could hardly bang heads with the mayor on the
• budget. . .
WAGNER: Can you give us any examples.where this type of proposal has
been effective? .
• ZINGER: On the national level_the Hoover Commission type of situation.
Perhaps a local county commission would have a little more
• •power, other than just. to recommend. But at the very least that I think is about
the•major analogy that I can draw. What this amounts to is a Hoover Commission,
an efficiency committee, or whatever you want to call it, even if they do nothing
more than bring to the attention of the public these opportunities to lower costs.
. Say, for instance, the commission comes out with a statement "we can, eliminate
five thousand dollars a month. on labor in this department", and then you leave it
. at that. If the department head does not do anything about it then the public in
general will judge whether that department head was right or wrong in not paying
attention to the recommendation. •
HENRY: ' Mr. Zinger, referring to your item - county manager form of
_ government - I would like to ask a question. Is it an elected
. office or is it appointed? If is is appointed who does the appointing?
ZINGER: It is an appointed position. The man is hired by the board.
The board is elected by the people and it is the board's job
to find and to hire a professional manager.
HENRY: Then you are referring to a mayor-council, city-manager form?
ZINGER: . A city-manager form, not a mayor form. The mayor is usually
not appointed, he is usually elected. It is essential that this
It • man is hired by the board, is an employee of the board, where he is responsible
for getting results. He is delegated authority to get results.
FUKUDA: I find the discussion of the watch dog commission very interest-
ing, but would this not add to the cost of government. Can't
the board. perform this function without adding another commission, another set •
Of elected officers, and another set of names on the- payroll.
• ZINGER: It depends on what you pay them compared to what they save the
county. The board isn't doing it to the extent;I would like to
see it done. It is worth a try. This would not be a .full-time or hardly a part
• time job. It would amount to reviewing the budget however frequently it comes out.
Perhaps a semi-annual meeting. If you pay each individual $100 a day for one day
compared to cost savings it would be a very cheap sort of thing. .
. FUKUDA: , You do not foresee this as a continuing commission?
ZINGER: If it works.
FUKUDA: Would you give it implementing powers other than study and
investigative powers?
• ZINGER: .I, personally, would favor giving it some veto power or some-
thing more than just public opinion. In other words, the first
thing they can do is arouse public opinion. If the county administration doesn't
take advantage of the suggestion then it is up to the public to, react. I, iter- •
• ' sonally, would favor giving it some veto power over a 'budget such. that it would
then require more support by-the board, or referendum to the .people, or something
else, before the budget is adopted., . •
CHAIRMAN: Would you say that the audit commission would come under the
manager or the council? You are saying that there is an audit
eommisoion of some. kind. Who does this commission watch, the council or the
manager? ,• •
..20. - ' .
lik
ZINGER: Whooing to draw u P.the budget er the new charter? '
going
Presumably the department heads and the city manager will work
•
out the recommendations for a budget, presumably they will submit to the board
for approval, along with the city manager's budget proposal. At the same time
that this is formally presented to the board for their approval, I feel that the
audit commission's recommendation on the budget should be submitted at the same
time. The city manager says here is what I suggest, and the audit commission
'says we feel that this can done to improve it.
CHAIRMAN You would not say then that they would watch the operational
• • unfolding of the budget as it is expended.
ZINGER: No. I think the savings in cost are achieved by deciding or
not deciding to do --when you set up the budget if you approve
a certain program, or if you approve a certain level of operating expense, that
is all that need , be done until the end of the budget period. Then you review the
budget.
•
CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I was worried about the poor city manager.
•HENRY: Going back to this commission. I. wonder if there is a need to
put this into the charter, because under the set-up of any
government the governing body may create anything by ordinance. I am wondering if
such a matter should be turned over to. the county board of supervisors or what-
• ever we are going to call this legislative body rather than being placed in the
..'
charter.
ZINGER: I think it should be placed in the charter for the same reason
that this commission should not be appointed by either the
board or the manager. Namely, 'if it is a creature of the board it can be elimin-
ated, by the same board. This is going to be a necessary evil that the board
cannot get rid of nor the .city manager can't ignore, it is autonomous.
HENRY: Then this body must be an elected boly..
L CHAIRMAN: Anybody else? Mr. Zinger, do you have any thought about how a
V . council or board would be elected?
ZINGER: You mean the board that hires the manager?
CHAIRMAN: Right. _
ZINGER: I have not prepared myself on that issue. I favor at. large
as far as how the people are elected. : - A' 7 man at large I
•.• s _ commission.
CHAIRMAN: Any other question? Thank you very much. Would anyone else .
care to make a presentation?
> Y� ALICE BEECHERT
1306 Ululant Street
Rh o, Hawaii
v• I am speaking as president of the League of Women Voters of Hawaii County.
am sure you all know the League did support the previous charter and we did so
for at leribt two concrete reasons. One was that we were for a form of government
... which would separate legislative and,administrative functions, and second we were
'J .Q in favor of a finance department which would be responsible for carrying out fiscal
."`• policy, drawing up long range CIP •budgetc and operating budgets. As I look at the
:Z, agenda for this evening it would seem to me that the form•of government that you
choose in the key to discussing the other items on the agenda. As I say, we are
N, N very thuch in favor of a form which would separate the legislative from the admim-
istrative function. In order to do this.we felt then and we feel now, a strong,
•
mayor-council form would be the moot advantageous. If you elect a strong mayor
than it would seem to us
you give him the power to appoint and remove his depart-
r1 meat heads. We would strongly recommend consistency in this. Give him this au-.
thority in all departments. In addition to which, if you have a strong mayor,
,4 then a 11-yenr. term in advisable to give him a chanceto put his program into
effect.
«21-
Chairman Kimura: I dOl/ discuss that with Mr. R rig when this came out
in the newspaper. If it was bore Mrs . Kaupu got on
the Board, it is true everything was Legal Aid 'of
Honolulu and not in the State . But now that we have
one representative , Mrs . Julia Kaupu. from Milolii •
on the State Bard of Directors in the Legal Aid: Society,
at least we have a voice there . Previous to going
on the Board, everything- was done in Honolulu. But
• as of right now, Mr. Christiansen is on his own to
implement the Legal Aid program on this island. An
applicant can go to him and he can make all the
determinations.
Christiansen: Might I answ:•r Mrs . Lewis this way. Certain policy
guidelines are -brought up by the Board of :it ;; Lor.
and acted on by them in Honolulu at their meetings,
but their policy guidelines are made in Honolulu.
I don't feel a strain. I feel that I am able to do
a perfectly adequate job for individual clients .
Obviously, I don' t make policies such as the O.E ..O.
guidelines, but might I state that certainly I don't
think any client has suffered for the reason cf any
• policy made by the Board of Directors .
Mrs. Lewis: There is one more questim before you go. Is there a
Good Samaritan Law in this r &ate?
Christiansen: My understanding is there is no such law.
Chairman Kimura: I am not quite sure, the. last legislature had in their
- Judiciary Committee, the Good Samaritan Law, not so
. much as the duty to act, but a protection, immunity
from liability. I thought the chances of passing
would be good but I don't know whether it passed.
- Mrs. Lewis: Do we have that here?
Chairman Kimura: Not in the County.
Koehnen: Does anyone else-have a question? Thank you very
much Steve . We appreciate your taking your time tor come here to explain the situation to us . I think
��., you have clarified the situation a good deal.
r =7 � - I, Chairman, Ithink we were about to enter into a
', a ' discussion on the concept of appointed county execu-
Mr t 4 r y .,.
o;� tive . Perhaps we may return to that and any other item
you would like to discuss .
Chairman Kimura: Would any member of the Board like to discuss this
initially? If there is no objection, I would like to
bring up some considerations . On the matter of the-
basic- organization of the county council and executive,
I would like to have the Charter Commission look into
several areas. I know that the predominance of
public sentiment seems to be in, the area of a council-
. mayor form of government, whether you call it the
strong mayor or weak mayor or whatever it is , but the
concept like the first two charters seems to be that
we should have a single executive which is elected.
I would like to have the -Charter Commission really look
into it very deeply, the : possibility of adopting a
council-manager form of government for this county.
I think this council-mayor form of government '_
several Th f ra ble points The n-nrzer under this
system would be an individual who would be specifically
trained in this area of public administration and public
• finance . The council would be the legislative body,
with very strori;;legislative body , and policy body and
, directive powers . And I think there is a great number
17
of fir
isdiction throughout thipnited States particularly
in l •
forni:a. They do have t is kind of a structure
which seems to work quite well. . So in this area, the
basic organization, I would like to have the Charter
Commission consider not only the council-mayor form, .
. . : but also the council-manager form, even if the senti-
ment of the Charter Commission itself may be one of
rather limited interest in this area here. I recognize •
: in the council-manager form several members of the
Board have expressed to me in discussion that although
this may be a good form of government, this may be a
very difficult form to sell to the people, simply
because time is Of the essence here and this is
an entirely new' concept in the State of Hawaii as far .
as putting it into practice . But I think the great
success of many of the smaller county jurisdictions
throughout the United States and as far as theory, this
• system seems to be quite attractive . My personal
request is to have the Charter Commission look into this
matter of a council-manager as well as the council- _
mayor.
•
In terms of the terms of office, maybe I should go
on it backwards . The members of the department .heads
in the •county government are almost unanimous in
recommending a four-year term and •they have aeveral
reasons for this . One is that they feel it has a •
sense of continuity. Programs can be thought about,
. developed, initiated, implemented, completed and even
evaluated in a four-year period of term, but they
, claim that in a two-year period, continuity is quite
short and that the develo.pment •of- a program is
interrupted by the political elective season. They
• point out too that in the four-year term you have an
. easier time in recruiting competent. people into the
county government and appointive positions and that
•
they will have an easier time doing this because the
person would be more likely to take the insecurity of
a political appointment for a period of four years '
rather than for a period of two years . I think these
are valid considerations but there. is one strong
consideration to .be given for a two. year term and this
is the fact of responsiveness to the people . This is
not to say that if they have four years they are
• going to be non-responsive, but -I think in balancsng
, the considerations for a two or four year term, I would
like to have .the Charter Commission balance it and look
very seriously into the two-year term as versus the
four year term because I believe the factor of
'responsiveness is of great importance in this kind of .
a representative form of government . I grant you a
two-year term has many disadvantages , disadvantage of
. a short period of time. One practical consideration
• of elected officials obviously is the high cost of
seeking election; the problem of recruitment; the other
problem of continuity and the other problem that makes
us politicians and prevents us from becoming statesmen
. in the two-year term. ', But in 'the four-year term, I
• think you will 'see more of us politicians becoming •
statesmen rather than remaining politicians . In terms
of the terms of office too, I would like to recommend
very strongly as •I did to the second commission, that
the executive whether it be a mayor system, that the •
executive be limited to terms . I believe the factor
here again, the effectiveness of responsiveness to
the people . Having new ideas and new leadership
exerted periodically is a good thing. Up to this time,
. we have depended on the political pendulum which
. swings back and forth to be the device 'by which we
• -• 18 - .
•
• 'havew..ideas and new leaderp. I think the .charter
shou d have..a provision of lirMation. If it is a
four-year term, I think eight years is. more than
adequate to implement a program and to carry it out .
I .think if it is a two-year term, I think it could •
possibly be six or eight years as .far as number of years
limitation would be good. And I recognize that there
are many arguments against this kind of limitations
like the United States presidency, one being that if
• you have a good- leader, why take him out. 'If you have
a Nayor Lee or Mayor Cavanagh, this type of mayors,
why should the .limitations legally throw him out of
' office . But I think against that kind of a valid
argument, it is weighted by the cnnsideration that we
should have new ideas, new leadership, a continuing
responsiveness that is built-in legally into the charter.
•
• For these reasons , I would like -to lecommend very
strongly that there be a limitation of terms.
And I recognize that , speaking personally, without the
benefit of any kind of'.a !'grandfather clause- for the
incumbent who is in the position right now.
• . And the size of the council, I recognize that public
sentiment and possibly sentiment of the Board and the
Charter Commission may revolve ' around the magic number
seven, but I would like to make a case for a much
larger council than seven for several reasons . One,
the Big Island, as the title indicates , is very
large . We have no local municipalities , we have no
• towns , we have no districts . Holualoa, Kealy kekua,
• • Honokaa, Olaa, Pahoa, all of these areas, normally
the rest of the mainland U.S. would have a municipality
of some township or some district government but on
• this island we have one centralized county government
without any of these small municipalities or townships
representing these natural groupings of people . And
• it is for this reason that I think the council is their
only real representation. . I think the key area as
far as figuring out a council size, has to be Kau . ' Kau,
• • • . • because of its geographical. isolation•' is faced with
the problem of representation. And in :this' area, I
would not be at all hesitant to vote for a larger
• • council, one that may start using the smallest basis
• as Kau and working around the island, and Kona because
of its large size could have a multiple districting,
Hamakua could have single: lie could have a combination
of .single and multiple districts . I believe this
meets the Supreme Court decision but I would like to
suggest to the Charter Commission that they not be
• mesmerized by the figure seven .or some figure less
than that. I would like to have the Charter Commission
recognize the fact of the size of the island, the
•
fact that we don ' t have any local government other. ' •
.than the county government, other than the council .
For this reason, I would like to 'urge upon the Charter
• . Commission that we have a larger council than seven.
. with the recognition that our natural -groupings such
as Kau and the other areas should have representation
because this is their best direct method of having
representations in the county government. .
•
• Some other considerations that I have . In terms of
the appointments of various boards and commissions ,
I would like to see the Maui -Charter provision
considered by our Charter Commission. I think their
recommendation of their provision have cause for a
one five-year term for all boards and-commissions have
much merit. Five years would place it beyond the
• term of any one elected official . . It would 'give them
.,
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con iuity, you. will have exile �nced people always
on Wtaggered five-year term sition and of course ,
this will gi,iaranLee ycu chane too on a very gradual
. -basis . , If you have a staggered five-year term than
. • each year you would have a new member and by this
method, 'I believe it will make a good combination of •
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change, of new blood, of continuity and of having a
guaranteed turnover.
On the other poli-tical• question of the Initiative and
Referendum, I grant you every political scientist and
I think almost every politician would like to make a
•
great case for the initiative and referendum. And I
would be no different. But in this area, instead of
the Charter Commission merely adopting the initiative
. and referendum without a deep discussion of the purpose
. and reasons for an initiative and referendum would be
in grave error. Initiative e.nd referendum when placed
side by side to the concept . of a representative form
of government appears to be inconsistent. Initiative •
is the ability by the people and the public to come
- forth and have an ordinance or a law be considered.
Isn 't this the real responsibility of the people that
. e you elect. And the same thing for initiative and
referendum and really have them evaluated. I hope
. that all of us could lock " 4_t some of the ballots, some
of the , considerations, the arguments that go on in the
State of California who e they have the initiative
and referendum. . And if we go several years back when
I was going to school there and the issue came about
the oil depletion situation and see millions of dollars
' 'spent on both sides, the public having really no
• - - idea of what the initiative and referendum was about
and to see all of these special -interest come through .
with all kinds of• initiative and proposals would give .
us cause to really evaluate in our :.•epresentative form
of government whether the .initiative and referendum
is that .sacred kind of a provision. -So I would like
to request the Chart.er ,Commission to really study the -
initiative and referendum in depth, particularly in
• areas such as California where they had this and to-
•
really get an idea of how these things work in actual
. practice and to weigh this together with the idea of .
• a representative fori.i of government.
In the other areas of the Committee on Aging, Children
and Youth and the 0.E. O. participation by the County
•
of Hawaii, and I know the Children and Youth are - -
. coming to the floard of Supervisors requesting a full-
• time, paid executive and' the Aging Organization has a
. • full time paid executive and 1. . do participate •
• financially in a very limited way in O.E.O. It may be
• well, Chairman K oehnen, i_n - this area here we could
consider something like a County -Department of Social
Services where Aging, Children and Youth and 0.E.O • '
• . considerations could all be placed in one department .
• . This may be a solution in this area here . In the ' area
of Safety, I recognize that Mr. Crivcllo who came from
Pepeekeo Sugar C0meany -has recommended that the most
effective way in which safety programs can be carried
' out is for the safety coordinator or' the administrator
to be directly and^:•.• the chief executive ; In this' way,
• this can - be ' carried out most efficiently ane most '
expeditiously and safety of course ole,lfinds quickness
and quick ,implementation. - If this is not placed in
the mayor or city mana;;er's department or office, . '
than the next logical place to , put it in would be the
Personnel Bcparti,ient because this is really a personnel
. •
function. But if you grant a quick impler"ent:tion of
•
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safe , if you want a dire ,,direct - ir emcntation of safety
. than�uttingeit in the Lerfor o "•e managers position
would be the most expeditious way of handling the
safety program.
I wish I had some .recozimendations for the Liquor
• •- Commission. but I 'm stumped. I bought that idea that
it should be placed in the Finence • iiepartment the
last tithe, possibly for lack of abetter place to put
it. . I think the .department of miscellaneous activities
may be the best bet, but I think we . hive a real problem.
•
. Koehnen: In our review of the functions' of the department, it
. • is- basically a large department- and seeing that it
. performs a line function and if it is performing a' .
line function, I really don 't hnc.i' wliy it shouldn' t
be classified .as to C.cp�•.rtmentai. status .
Chairman Kimura: That. may be the best solution.
. Koehnen: • ' We welcome any ::ugr;estic..s the Board members may '
have. • . . •
- Greenwell: Mr. Chairman, •I think the tenure should depend upon
- the number of people who are going to be involved in
the council. • Small coulic_l say fog years , but . if you
are going to get iu;o a council of fifteen iaembers ,
I think we should go •for two-year terms because we
. recognize the ar e. is going to be smaller, elections
. may be .less costly and it gives the opportunity to
.:the people within this a e _ to evale to their
. •� representative to the council. They would be able
' to evaluate them euicl:er in the two years . I think
. • the other problem too with the small jurisdiction of
the long term is the •tendency for the councilmen to
become over--la:tied within the area ar.d not listen to .
anybody. . The charter completed last year I thought
was probably the best thing th.e,T. cc"id come out with.
- • The idea of the Liquor Commission being a department
by itself is a pod idea. Yina:nce wculd only be there
because there seem to be some sort of association .
_ but other than that, they. cou'_d ' be _ut in the Police
- Department. -
Koehnen: I wonder if any of 'the other s , • Board members particularly,
want to comment on. the ce ncil. Anybody have any idea
. . on what constitutes a workable size?
Greenwell: I think if we are going to fifteen then we should also
weigh the city manager against- mayor. If we are going
to have fifteen, I think we should stick wiry the mayor.
With the smaller num'pers, I ..this:_: the city manager '
would be better. Thera is not as much shotgun influences.
• . in the city manager type because you only have seven ,
people - involved. If you have fifteen, you have to have
• a mayor who has auth.o-city of his own to determine the
intent without having fifteen .people telling the. city
. manager what to do.
Koehnen: We have tt•e documents on h:'ad nog:;on the county manager
system. One is a document on Riverside County, Californi.
and the .other is :.'e.cre ante County; California which
Supervisor M,atayoshi actual:1y brc_tght ' ack from the
. �.
. NCCA and these are more or less pposite c:ctremes in
' the county manager sy-stem . • The Riverside one has a
county manager who makes almost- none .of the appointments
as far as the functioning department heads . lie. is
appointed by the council there but at the same time ,
most of the dci,a-;•t,.,o,it hca.C.:s ale appointed by separate
•
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comr sions . . So it's a combi ' on of county manager •
-
commission form. The Sacrameno one is quite the
opposite . They have a . county manager- system where
the county manager appoints almost every department
• head and, perhaps some of you might want to . comment on .
the- advantages or disadvantages of each one in
" connection with 'administrative authority. Sometimes
in looking over this chmoter, I' wonder how the voters
actually visualize this function under the charter.
Chairman Kimura:• Fred, in reference to the system whereby the executive,
whether it be a manager or a ma;►or,.. w.;:.o has a very
diluted kind of power, I think we are just coming back
. to the present situation that we - have . If we are going •
to have a charter and the council is going to• be
... basically the legislative policy and that type of a
responsibility, than the manager or the mayor should
• have the executive power to c:crate the administrative
responsibility of the county government . And I think .
. whether it is manager or mayo_•, he should have that
kind of power and authority to. c:o it. Otherw ' it •
is a highly diluted form of administration again . But
in 'reference to Sherwood 's discussion about the size
of the council being related to the manager, I grant
r • you, I think there is. a problem if you. : -:.-e all single
'districts . If •you ::.^.ve all- single districts and then
. if you have a manager, they run into this problem of
each guy being a lord of each area, but • I think if you
. had a combination or r,ultinle and Kau. maybe . because
of its ,limited size may have only one but Kona may
• • . have a multiple of three or whatever the percentage
- comes up with.• -:.. can :: .. : _ _. 'o and
• this kind c f t.._ • a. :' : . : the magic number, I think
when you start talking about managable numbers , I think
- the- commissions in the past have been more on cost . .
. • Say if we gave Bill one for Kau, this would mean at
$600 a month at 12 m:.on;;hs , ��7, 20() or a liberal $10, 000
a year. But I think at $10, 000 n year for the 1-,istrict
of Kau to have a representative, a direct representative,
_ • . it is certainly -worthwhile . So •I think that considera
. tion of cost has to be balanced .with the representation
our island gets . So I dcoa.'t think thirteen is
-unmanagable or fifteen, simply because we have. a
large island here and have no other local government.
We have only one centralized county- government. And
I feel. for those particular rural areas . I think they
. £hould have represcntaticn. - I. doi1't think we should .
stick to the magic nur:bor.. On the limitation of terms,
I am talking about the Mayor, not the manager. The
manager should serve at thee will of the county.
• Koehnen: I have one additional '-uestion. concerning the appointed
- county executive . Statistically, this form 'works well
and generally is considered to be alternate form as
far as local government is concerned in terms of
- • efficiency and what have ev u. This is one of the
. . . recommended forms of the ational Association of
•
Counties and many other org ani_actions in this field . -
Hoiic.ver, it is also usually recommended along with
. . . non-partisan • .
- Chairman Kimura: Fred , I am thinking out lc'td. in that area. Of course '
: the ialand of Hawaii., wheLh-:r it is 80 or E5 per cent,
. - - vary considerably in that a percentage are non-partisan.
• . So with that kind oi' a history, I thin'.: non-nartisanship -
would be a logical sequence to follow.- But all of
us here know really in County gc vernm-ent, more of them
- , - are -non-parti:3au to begin with, •c):cept for certain a
. appointed thing. . It. ray b,:co e partisan but from the
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stal'oint of actual projects anything like it, it ' .
dlviZres more .into East and Westwrather than on partisan
lines like Greenwell or Matayoshi or like that. So .
I grant you in a county_ government the partisan doesn 't
play that. much -of a role, but the other side of the
coin too, when you look at the partisanship in the
state level and the federal level, we do have down
the line, democrats and .republicans . We may be
forced into a situation where everything else is a
partisan situation and the voters , I think, pretty
much vote that way to begin with. They put labels.
They know whether June Lewis is a Socialist or a.
Communist. So I think they already put labels on them.
If the county government should go the other way on
non-partisan, , we may have that kind of a problem,
although I recognize that most of the city manager
type of administration or council manager are non-
partisan in nature .
Greenwell: I think the non-partisan idea_ is a very good one .
Looking back over the years I- have been on the Board,
I can recall instances where good government or
good legislation has been turned down because of
partisan fights . Changes in administration or changes
in partisan are known to have held back good legislation
for a matter of four months or more because if one
• side has suggested it, the feelings of the other side
cannot tolerate it just because it comes from the
other side . And as a result, good legislation has
been prolonged. .
Herbst: •I have a. question.. Would the legislative auditor
be on a contractual basis?
Chairman Kimura: No, I believe the legislative auditor like the State
• . has would serve at the pleasure of the council . .
Herbst: On this limitation of term, you direct- that at the
. mayor 's, position only, not 'atthe council.
r
Chairman Kimura:- Right, because in terms of the. council, Art, the
changes come about not rapidly or..where you have in
Kauai where five of the seven changed at one time .
The council, where legislation -is concerned, does
have changes , old ones retired , r defeated and that
• type of thing, and you don't have all of the tremendous
powers , executive powers of the mayor. In the period
of one term, if you employ 200 employees , you do
business with a great number -of the businesses, _ .
architecture, engineers , etc .
and so often as these people become entranced,
it is quite difficult to remove them and. this is the •-
concern that I have in the area of responsiveness and
of having the change after you allow a person to have ,
an opportunity to implement his ideas or programs .
And I think I would , as a citizen, rather have some-
.thing build -into the charter which would afford a
guarantee change . And weighed against it would be ,
what would you do with a good man . When Dwight
• • Eisenhower had to leave , this type of thing. I am sure
that if there was a two-t'e.rm on- the State governorship,.
Nr. Greenwell would have the same sorrow at seeing
that changeover, but this is the kind of a situation
we have to see ; I feel very strongly that in local
•
government you are so -close and - powers are so much,
• and human beings %no matter who they are , I haven' t
met one yet who can have a perfect perspective
throughout the individuals career. And the mayorshi.p
for, instance, in this area, the chief executive, the
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mayor, the ,p.wers are really 'tense. The ties
.- . that you make are quite intensive, so I would like
. to see this kind of a built-in change that would
come about. .
Herbst: One other point, the city I think has a city manager-
council. type government, .but I 'can't remember who takes
• over the duties . • .
Chairman Kimura: My understanding on that, Art, is, at least by practice,
the appointed mayor who is in effect the chairman of
the council is an individual who does most of this
protocol work and Fred at one time figured this out
for me . He and -I disagreed. . He said that 60. per
' cent of an elected chairman or an official 's position
is spent on what you call protocol, including making
speeches at various organizations. I think it was
more like 40 per cent but maybe he was telling me
something here . Basically, so much time of the
chairman or mayor is spent in much of protocol •
• . work which is part of the job and in this area under
a council manager, Art, my understanding is that the , .
chairman of the council or the mayor who is the .
chairman of the council would be the one doing all of
this protocol work which includes presenting keys ,
shaking hands , kissing girls and be judge at a •
beauty contest and all the other difficult work I C
have to do. .
•
Koehnen: ' Do any other members or any of the Supervisors have
• "questions of the commission? There is one other item
that I would like to bring up. for discussion. This
is the desirability or non-desirability of including
the Hatch Act for county employees . .
Chairman Kimura: Any comments? •
Greenwell: Firemen?
Chairman Kimura: Fred, let me lead off on this 'touchy question. .
. Initially this is my thinking. I am thinking . out
loud here . There are two factors. One is the
freedom of the individual to do what he wants as
long as he does his job in the civil service . The
other factor is really security and protection for
that civil service, that the civil service system does
work at least to a great project than it does at the
present time ., And I think a complete Hatch Act like
the Federal Government does much in this area . This
• . doesn 't prevent the guy from donating to the party of
his choice or even doing some sort of limited party
. activity, that type of thing. But in terms of a
local government where the employees are close to ,
. individual politicians or to the chairman or members
• of the Boas;. Thereis much to argue for a complete
Hatch Act particularly for those individuals who do
law enforcement work like the public inspectors , building
, :. inspectors, plumbing inspectors , fire inspectors , the
policeman, the liquor inspectors , all these people .
In fact, I think the liquor inspectors at the present
time under law are barred from participating. So I
think in this area of law enforcement, it would be a
good idea. My recollection, Fred; I think the
Police Commission or the Police Chief has recommended
that, the }latch Act should be a protective device for
the .civil service . It may not be perfect, but this
is my recollection in testimony in the past . I think '
that factor of the protective device does much to add
to the security of civil service. The other argument '
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