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HomeMy WebLinkAboutCHC 1979-02-13 HAWAII COUNTY CHARTER COMMISSION MINUTES 6th Session February 13 , 1979 Hilo, Hawaii The sixth session of the Hawaii County Charter Commission was called to order at 3 : 38 p.m. in the Hawaii County Council- room, Hawaii County Building, Hilo, Hawaii , by Mr. Kimiaki Sakata, Chairman. The roll recorded the following: Present: Mr. Harlan Cadinha Mr. Richard Ishida Mrs. Gloria Kobayashi Mr. Akira Omonaka Mr. Kimiaki Sakata Mr. Spencer Kalani Schutte Mr. Herman Sensano Mr. Joseph Trulson Mr. Basilio Yagong Mr. Matsuo Yanaga Absent Mrs . Amy Iwamoto and Excused: Also Recording Secretary, Joan Carnett Present : LEGAL The Chair introduced Stuart H. Oda, Attorney, COUNSEL: as newly appointed legal counsel for the Hawaii County Charter Commission. APPROVAL The following correction was noted for the 2nd OF session minutes , dated January 16, 1979: MINUTES: 1 . Delete Mr. Marty Sebastian as being present and record Mr. Herbert M. Richards, Chairman of the Police Commission as present. The following corrections were noted for the 4th session minutes, dated January 30, 1979: 1. Page 6. . .remove top line and replace with "it would be through an ordinance change and not by Charter revision". ( Statement of J. Trulson) 2. Page 11 . . .spelling of roll to role. (Mr. Ono ' s first statement on page) 3. Page 14. . .spelling of addtional to additional. (Mr. Ono' s second state- ment on page. ) 4. Page 26. . .Mr. Yagong as speaker to Mr. Sensano. 5 . Page 35 . . . "moved on" to movant. (Re 3rd session minutes. ) There being no further changes or corrections, it was moved, seconded and carried that the minutes for January 16, 1979 and January 30, 1979 be approved. COMMUNI- The following communication was considered: CATIONS: Comm. 18: Letter from William W. Moss , Acting Chairman, West Hawaii Committee, dated January 29 , 1979 , requesting copies of the Charter Commission proceedings. It was moved, seconded and carried that Communication 18 be received and filed. DEPARTMENTAL The Chair directed the commission to take up TESTIMONY: the departmental testimonies . COUNTY The Chair introduced Mr. R. B. Legaspi , County CLERK: Clerk. MR. LEGASPI : Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name is Rudy Legaspi , I 'm the County Clerk, Countyof Hawaii. My testimony has been submitted to you, previously, and it appeared on your agenda last week as Commu- nication 17. Rather than read the entire presentation, I 'd be more receptive to receiving any questions you may have about it. Basically, the testimony just gives you an overview of County Clerk ' s operationswhich includes the County Council with three major divisions : The Council Services Division , the Legislative Auditor Division and the Election Division. The proposed budget for the 1979, 1980 fiscal year will be in the neighborhood of $964,523. -2- MR. TRULSON: Mr. Legaspi , with regards to Number 3 on Page 3, regarding Section 3-8 Rules and Journal ; Voting and Quorum. I would like your reasons for this change. What are your reasons for this change? MR. LEGASPI : All right, Mr. Trulson. Actually, in the last couple of years while serving as the County Clerk, we have had many resolutions and ordinances, either first reading or second reading, which by Charter requires a roll call vote on each measure. This becomes a tiresome, monotonous and unnecessary task as far as the legislative processes is concerned. By Charter this means that we have to take a roll call vote meaning I 'm calling out the roll per resolution per reading for each bill and we may have anywhere from thirty to forty propositions like that in a sitting. It becomes a very monotonous and mean- ingless task or procedure. So, what I 'm suggesting is that we change the Charter to permit• an "aye" or "no" vote. I mean a voice vote. However, if a member of the Council wishes aroll call vote, any one member could so request and he could not be denied a roll call vote on that. But this would eliminate, I think, the unnecessary roll callIvote on every issue. MR. TRULSON: Would you not then have to put in that stipulation that a__rol_call can -be demanded by. . . . MR. LEGASPI : It is stated there on the underlining language. This is new language I propose: "in which the ayes and noes shall be entered as required by this charter or at any other time upon the demand of any member". That is the language that would take care of that. There are other methods of voting and this is in our Rules of Procedure, like again a technique used in other cities on , say, a condolence resolution. Rather than going through a procedure of a roll call which might be kind of a funny thing to vote upon, a condolence byca roll call . Maybe a standing vote of one minute of silence would be more appropriate for a condolence resolution as opposed to a roll call vote. And you are not going to say "no" to a roll call on a condolence. MR. TRULSON: So then it is your opinion that this is merely a timesaving device that would have no effect upon voting. MR. LEGASPI : That is correct. As I said , the safeguard here is that upon demand of any one member of the Council , he could demand a roll call vote at any time or on any issue. MR. TRULSON: Thank you. -3- MR. CADINHA: Mr. Legaspi , in your experience as County Clerk. . .I 'm asking your opinion, right now, on whether you think the County Council needs separate legal counsel , or not. MR. LEGASPI : My answer to that would be, yes. This issue is not a new issue before the County Council. We had this same concern many years ago. Proponent at that time, I think , was Council Chairman Yamada. At that time, I think, there was a proposal or some sentiments at the legislature for this to come about but unfortunately this did not win support at the legislature. But, again, my experience with the Council and the confrontations with the administration I believe the County Council should have their own legal staff. And, I think like Mr. Steve Bess , in his testimony, I think you could do it in several ways without actually amending the Charter. There is a provision here in my write up. I think it is Number 2, by virtue of Act 62 , the County Council may hire additional staff. This would be non-Civil Service staff which mayA nclude attorneys for any specific assign- ment or role. And also by Charter, I think , by two-thirds vote the County Council may get legal services. Another such measure whereby the County Council might get legal counsel on their staff, you might say, is to in their selection of the County Clerk, their Deputy County Clerk, or their Legislative Auditor which are appointive positions of the County Council , they might want to select an attorney in one of those positions. I say this because relating to the set-up at the legislature, the clerk of the senate is an attorney. The clerk of the house is an attorney. I think the problems you might run into here would be whether this attorney if he is employed by the County Council is permitted or would be allowed to give legal opinions as far as the Charter is concerned. I think not, but again at least you would have a legal body here rendering maybe unofficial opinions or doing some legal research for the Council. MRS. KOBAYASHI : Mr. Legaspi , as the Charter is now stated in 3-7, doesn ' t it already allow the Council the ability to hire its own legal staff? MR. LEGASPI: It does. Like I said, it does , but what they are talking about as far as the County Council is someone more permanent in-house continuous kind of an assignment. Not a one shot ad-hoc or specific assignment. For that section , I believe, that would pertain to a specific issue or a specific problem. MRS. KOBAYASHI : You think it should be more specific then if we decide. . . -4- MR. LEGASPI : I don 't think that is what the County Council would be looking for. I think when they need that kind of help it ' s not planned, it happens and they need legal assistance and they need it right then kind of thing. MRS. KOBAYASHI : But it could be read to say that they could already hire as long as they have the appropriations? According to Section 3-7 (b) ( 6) . MR. LEGASPI : Yes, you could use that section in certain cases but I don ' t think that was what they really wanted. MR. TRULSON: Mr. Legaspi , we 've had prior testimony from Mr. Bess, the Corporation Counsel, and the very same question was raised., as to legal counsel for the County Council. He was in favor of it but he had a restric- tion on it, I believe, that he would still have the final say on any recommendation given by the counsel hired by the Council. What would then. . .wouldn 't there be some. . .I can 't think of the word right now but if I hire a man to give me an opinion as the coun•seel does but the overall counsel can say no. . .it is. . .arn I taking the wrong meaning in that? MR. LEGASPI : No, that would be a problem. I would agree with Mr. Bess, however, that the legal opinions as far as the county government is concerned should be vested in the office of the corporation counsel . There would be a conflict if the County Council had their own attorney rendering that kind of opinion but like I qualified my statement that what the Council needs is somebody with a legal mind and the capabilities of doing legal research for the Council where they could have more confidence in their opinion as opposed to going to the corp counsel where they feel that they are more aligned to the administration. This may not be the case, but they'd be more comfortable with, say, their own attorney rendering an opinion. MR. TRULSON: And would you say on both occasions there would not be any conflict, at any rate, the council ' s counsel would not be making decisions as far as the county as a whole is concerned? MR. LEGASPI : That ' s right. I think you ' ll have to spell it out. If they get their own counsel you ' ll have to spell out,$what his limitations are as far as his scope and his responsibilities are. As I say, I agree with Mr. Bess that the office of the corporation counsel should renderall legal opinions from the county government. MR. TRULSON: Now, should. . .well, like you say, what is already there and your recommendation in the wording they would be allowed to hire their own legal advisor. Then is that restriction, or whatever they can do, is that by `Ordinance instead of by Charter? -5- MR. LEGASPI : It ' s by Charter, right now. MR. TRULSON: It ' s by Charter that they can do it but then what. . .the scope of what he is able to do. MR. LEGASPI : It ' s not spelled out. You ' ll have to. . . MR. TRULSON: Would you spell that out in the Charter or would you spell that out. . . MR. LEGASPI : If the occasion arises where they apply that portion of the Charter to get legal staff, they' ll have to spell out what his salary would be, what his scope of assignment would be for that particular assign- ment. They won ' t hire at that point and say, he' s hired as of this date and to continue. It will be for one specific assignment. Once he is hired it is not for a continuous thing. It would be for a specific job, a specific concern. This is why I 'm saying this doesn ' t apply to what the County Council had intended. What they wanted was a legal mind to be available at any time. MR. TRULSON: In the past , there have been times when some of the Councilmen have taken it upon them- selves to sue each other. If they had their own legal counsel , could he be used in any way to protect one from another? MR. LEGASPI : It ' s a possibility, yes. MR. TRULSON: Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions. Thank you, Mr. Legaspi. MR. LEGASPI: May I make a suggestion? It relates to elections. I have a note from my election super- visor that during the course of, say it occurs when you are out in the public to give opinions on the proposed draft or the recommended proposals , we are suggesting that you set up a telephone answering service here during that time to answer any questions people might have about the Charter revisions. And , definitely, for election day, someone should be here at the headquarters to field any questions about the Charter amendments that you guys are proposing. MR. CADINHA: One more time, please. What are you asking? MR. LEGASPI : After your draft is completed a lot of people will be calling this office for. .what is the story about this amendment, give us an explanation. I don ' t think we ' ll have anybody here in our County Clerk ' s office to field those questions. , We are suggesting that you set up an answering service whereby the person may call to get information or leave his number so one of you can call that person back to answer his concerns. But, definitely, we are saying that on election day you will get a lot of calls. -6- People not understanding about this particular proposal or amendment. That someone from this Commission or maybe your attorney should stand by on election day to field any questions that the public might have on it. MR. CADINHA: You pays for this? Who pays for this body and telephone lines and this sort of thing? Isn ' t that part of the special election costs? MR. LEGASPI : As far as the telephone costs, we ' ll pick it up in our budget. I assume everything will be picked up by your $110,000 budget which will be submitted by the mayor, I believe. MR. CADINHA: So there is no further action required of this body, then. MR. LEGASPI : No. MR. CADINHA: Thank you. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Are there any other questions? Thank you, Mr. Legaspi. BOARD OF The Chair called for the Board of Ethics ETHICS: to appear. Ms. Roxanna Garcia was present. MS. GARCIA: Mr. Chairman, the Chairman of the Board of Ethics is, of course, as you know, Mr. Dwayne Miyashiro. He called me this morning and said that he hadif_ notified you that he would be unable to attend the meeting this afternoon because of business and he asked that I , since I advise the Board of Ethics, . . .and my name, by the way, is Roxanna Garcia, I am Assistant Corporation Counsel, an assistant to Stephen Bess. One of the boards which I advise is the Board of Ethics. . .-and he asked that I appear for him to explain , if necessary, his memorandum to you dated February 9, 1979, and that any questions you might have I will make note of. If I can answer them without a conflict from the perspective of my employment as a member of the corporation counsel , I will answer the questions. But if I cannot, I will make note of them and perhaps Mr. Miyashiro, at a later time, could come back and testify before you. MR. TRULSON: Ms. Garcia, we:lre a little confused by his letter in that we don ' t have a copy of the County Code. So, it is hard for us to refer to what the different sections he is talking about like 5-C, 8A, 8B. MS. GARCIA: I wasn 't aware that Mr. Miyashiro was going to use the County Code references. The language is almost identical to the Charter. The Code of Ethics in the Charter begins on page 36 and the subsections under Section 14-2 which are described as Standards are those sections which are the Code of Ethics as enumerated separately as required by Charter. -7- Article 8 of the code is a verbal expansion of these limitations as set out by the code. It may be that we will have to get you copies of the section in the code. But let ' s start with Number 1 and perhaps we could clarify this->,a bit for you. Number 1 , in Mr. Miyashiro ' s memorandum, refers to Sections 5-C, 8A, 8B, 8C and 9 because there was a lawsuit filed against the county and in that lawsuit the attornies referred to the sections as they are described in the code, rather than the Charter. Section 5-C is Section 14-2(!c) in your Code of Ethics. MR. TRULSON: Excuse me, dash what? C? MS. GARCIA: Yes. Section 5-C as referred to Mr. Miyashiro' s_ memorandum,=>which is the code reference, is Section -14-72(c)14-2(c) on page 36 of the code. But I think that that is the- only section that is specifically. .or is verbatim, the same language. The other sections are not in your Charter so it is not really relevant. I don ' t think that Mr. Miyashiro understood that you would be dealing only with the Charter. SOction 9 as referred to in Mr. Miyashiro ' s memorandum to you is Section 9 in the code and it is not in your Charter at all® It is a penalty provision for violation of any provisions of the code. So, it is not a matter which you would be taking action on anyway. But, it is a bit confusing. . .I would say, quite a bit confusing for you. Perhaps it would be better for Mr. Miyashiro to rewrite the memo and delete those portions that are not relevant to the Charter® However, I do think it ' s a. . .since he has already put it in this memo . . .i do think it 's a good idea to apprise you of the content of those sections so that you will understand® Perhaps then at the next meeting with Mr. Miyashiro you can cross- check these two documents. But Section 9 of the Hawaii County Code, you would have nothing to do with that, so that has to be deleted® It ' s a penalty provision and in this lawsuit which was filed against us , a few years ago, Judge Kubota ruled that that section must be deleted from the code and we have taken such action. At least, I have prepared the proper documents for the submission to the Council to have that section deleted from the code. Number 5 is the only one that is the ,verbatim language and it says , in your Charter on page 38, "disclose confidential information gained by reason of his official position or use such information for the personal gain or benefit of himself or anyone else". And I think Mr. Oda has a firsthand knowledge information of this particular iirsuit because I know that he was deputy corporation counsel at the time this particular question was presented to the court, and then, subsequently, went into private practice. -8- But Judge Kabota ruled in favor of the Big Island Press Club. The Big Island Press Club ' s position was that this section prohibited an employee of the county from revealing information which was of a pertinent nature, though of private nature, to uncover something that might be improper or illegal or immoral. But, unfortunately, that decision went much further because by ruling this section as unconstitutional , the second aspect of the language, "or use such information for the personal gain or benefit of himself or anyone else", went out the window, too. I dont think anyone wants any county employee using any personal or confidential information for personal gain. Fortunately, though, that problem can be corrected by referring to subsections (d) and (e) , but, at any rate, Judge Doi declared subsection (c) unconstit- utional. So, we have to delete subsection (c) from the Charter because of the ruling of Judge Doi when he was on the bench here. The language that is in quotes in Number.1, "Thissection shall be construed together with Section 13-20 (b) of the Charter of the County of Hawaii. The Board shall make an affirmative or negative finding that the subject involves personal matters affecting the privacy of an individual . " That is almost a verbat ,m, quote from Judge Kubota decision and I don ' t know that that goes in the Charter but that it:;goes inthe,code. Section 13-20(b) is, you may have noted, has to do with closed meetings. Open and closed meetings . Judge_Kubota ,has ruled that we should comply with a stricter interpretation, that is, everything must be open . All meetings must be open. The only time a meeting can be closed, and, this , of course, referring specifically to the Board of Ethics meetings. The only time a Board of Ethics meeting can be closed is if the content of the meeting, or the subject matter of the meeting, deals with the privacy of an individual. Which is the language of Section 13-20(b) of your Charter. But first the Board of Ethics , and this really goes for any board or commission. First, they have to make a determination that something is, in fact, affecting the privacy of an individual before they can go into a closed session. So that whole first part, Number 1 , there, has to do with closed meetings, open meetings and using confidential information to one's gain. I think I am going to recommend that Mr. Miyashiro rewrite this. Break it down. If you are interested in being supplied with Article 8 of the code, I think we can see that you get it, and then could schedule another hearing with Mr. Miyashiro. -9- MR. TRULSON: If he would ,advise us what his recommendations are as referred to the language of the Charter instead of the code. MS. GARCIA: Yes , this is all dealing with the code. Now, Number 2, County Council ' s acceptance of County Clerk ' s recommendation to delete the words "without proper consent" at the °end of the sentence in Section 7A. That is the code, not the Charter. Number 3, Councilwoman Lai ' s recommendations. Were you provided with any of the materials from Council- woman Lai in her presentation to the Council on February 1? If you will notice Section 14-3. Disclosure of Interest. What she is talking about when she refers to Section 6 and Section 6A are those sections in the Hawaii County Code which are the identical , or almost the identical, language of Section 14-3( a) (b) in your Charter. The Charter states, in subsection ( a) "It shall be incumbent upon all employees or officers of the county to: ( a) Make full disclosure in writing to his appointing authority or to the council in the case of an elective officer, the possession or acquisition of any interests , financial or otherwise as might reasonably tend to create a conflict with the public interest. " And then the language continues, of course. Now, in the code, the language is almost identical except that it provides that there shall be a certain period of time within which the employee or officer of the county shall make this disclosure. And as it is written in the code, presently, it implies that upon your election or appointment within 20 days of your election or appointment as an employee or officer of the county, you must make this disclosure pursuant to the Code of Ethics. But what was happening is that people were being elected two months before they actually took office. Under that language it says, "within 20 days of your election or appointment as an employee or an officer of the county". Now, Ms. Lai , for example, was elected let ' s say, October 15 but she didn ' t take office, we' ll say, until January 1. I don ' t remember the exact dates. But to explain this to you, if she is elected on October 15 . She doesn ' t have to go into a runoff in the primary. She' s elected November 15 and you have almost two months that pass before she actually assumes her responsibilities as a Councilwoman. And, yet, the code says that'Awithin 20 days of your election as an officer, or your appointment as an employee of the county, you must make this disclosure. Well , this is not so bad for employees , but for elected officers , it is extremely difficult because they haven 't even assumed office yet and they are. . .they -10- didn ' t even know if they were going to be elected. So, after they are elected they have to spend this time in disposing of whatever interests may be in direct conflict with their responsibilities as an officer of the county. Particularly as a Councilman. So, frequently the Councilmen don ' t even know what may be a conflict until they assume office. So, what Ms. Lai is asking is that the code be amended so as to read that within 20 days after having been elected or appointed, you must submit this report in writing. It is a very simple amendment but it is not in the Charter, it is in the code. I think, perhaps , Mr. Miyashiro misunderstood in preparing this memorandum. Do you have any questions about the Code of Ethics as described in the Charter? MR. TRULSON: I believe the only question I would have would have to be of Mr. Miyashiro. I don ' t know what his feeling is on the various sections and subsections outside what he has stated here in part one. Which, I think , it refers , does it not, to the Sunshine Law, too? MS. GARCIA: If you mean Section 13-20(b) of the Charter, yes. That is the County' s Sunshine Law. As you know, there is the so-called State Sunshine Law which is Chapter 92 of the Hawaii Revised Statutes . But there is a provision at the very end of Chapter 92 of the_Hawaii_ Revised Statutes which says that =no. local_ ordinance_or__ - = Charter provision shall prevail over the statutory language, "i statutory being state law, ordinances and Charter provision being local or county law, shall prevail over the state provisions unless the local laws are more stringent. That is , it calls for more openness and less exemptions. Our Charter is much more stringent than the state law. We've had a couple of lawsuits filed , already, in which the local judges have ruled that we must follow with our Charter provisions rather that with our state law because they are more stringent. You can ' t be looser than the state statutes but you can be stricter. So, perhaps we could reschedule Mr. Miyashiro? MR. TRULSON: I believe so. MR. CADINHA: Is there anything in your mind that could be changed Charter-wise that would help the function of this Board? MS. GARCIA: I think that the Charter provisions are very much detailed and adequate from my perspective, in instructing and informing the members of the Board of Ethics what their responsibilities are. Especially Section 14-5 as described on page 37. I think, from my observation, the implementation of this section depends entirely on the tenacity of those people who are appointed to the Board. Are they willing to say ,"n_s "2 Are they willing to make an unpop- -11- ular decision? Unpopular or apolitical? That is the crux, in my opinion, of the effectiveness of the Board of Ethics. Or any board, for that matter, particularly the Board of Ethics. That they not allow themselves be influenced by external pressures. Which, of course, is the, most difficult thing for any of us to do. MR. CADINHA: What protection does a public employee have from being taken in front of the Board of Ethics on a frivolous sort of a charge? Is there any criteria that is set up before a complaint can be filed or registered?'" MS. GARCIA: The provisions in the code which implement this article of the Charter detail what is required in filing a request for an opinion from the Board of Ethics. And you, of course, are referring to several well known requests for opinions that have been filed by person or persons we will not name at this time. But, which were later determined by the Board to be frivolous charges. I don ' t want to say they used that term but they determined. . .the Board determined in those particular instances which, by the way, involved inter-Councilmen battling, as you referred to, Mr. Trulson. In using legal counsel ,their own legal counsel , to fight each-:other. The Board determined that the document, itself, which was filed to ask a question of the Board, was insufficient. So, that is a determination the Board has to make. Now, whether they can make that decision without accepting it. Without ever placingit on an agenda and making a public statement that this-is -not a sufficient complaint is a question that I am not willing to answer because I think , perhaps , we get into the open meetings problem where the Board will meet quietly behind the meeting room and go over the application and say, no, this appli- cation is inadequate. The applicant has to be informed of that publicly, too, so I don ' t see any way you can avoid having a public determination of the sufficiency or insuf- ficiency of the request for an opinion. But, your question, as I recall is, is there anything which adequately safeguards or protects the rights of the employees against,--or officer, against frivolous charges. I believe that was your question , para- phrased a bit. Probably not. You can ' t stop anybody from filing a lawsuit against anybody. MR. CADINHA: But there is a cost deterrent, though. MS. GARCIA: It is just that once it gets into court the judge will determine whether or not this lawsuit can go forward. Whether or not there is, in fact, an actionable complaint. But costs, there are no costs asc: far as the Board of Ethics is concerned. We do pay, of course, their expenditures and travel fees. and secretarial -12- staff and like that. But if you are talking about costs from the perspective of having to defend that action then you are getting into another matter which you might want to discuss with Mr. Miyashiro as well as the County Council. And that is that entire can of worms called "special counsel" and who is going to pay for whose attorney fee's ' if you have to have an attorney come and represent you before the Board of Ethics. And I know that is what you were getting at, wasn 't it? Sorry. But you see these are the legitimate inquiries which you have to get into. That is the practical application of this Code of Ethics when you are dealing with the Board, a layman , a body of layman , and people who may be filing complaints against each other for purposes of harassment rather than for a legitimate inquiry as to whether something is proper or not. And if you have to go and hire an attorney to represent you in this matter, should you have to pay for it. Who is going to pay for that. You know, all of these questions, perhaps you might want to discuss with. . .among yourselves. . .with Mr. Miyashiro. MR. TRULSON: I have one more question, Ms. Garcia. You stated regarding Section 14-5 that many times its the persons or people on the committee, are they strong enough to say "no". -Section 14-5 as it stands in the Charter, structurally, -do you feel is doing the job? MS. GARCIA: Well, if these are the areas in which you feel the Board of Ethics should enter into and render opinions and interpret them, then, yes. I also .; advise the County Council during Council meetings and when'they have asked me for a legal opinion about someportion of the ' '_ Code of Ethics or some portion of the Code of Ethics as it is in the Hawaii County Code and you can see clearly by the Charter that that is not my responsibility, it ' s the Board of Ethics that interprets the Code of Ethics for both the county officials and the public and on its own may initiate and render opinions with respect thereto. MR. TRULSON: It is the job of the Board of Ethics but being under the county, don ' t they have avail- ability of the County Corporation Counsel to help them in their decision? Isn 't that why you are an advisor to them? MS. GARCIA: No, the question is. is that a legal question. You see, lots of questions are asked the corporation counsel which are not legal questions. They are asking us to make policy decisions or to set up some kind of procedure. Or to interpret something. That is not necessarily a legal question. You know, what is legal and what is illegal. What is your interpretation of the Constitution of the United States? Perhaps you don ' t have to be a lawyer to interpret. What, is your interpretation? What does that mean. Now, whether. . .if the question is did so-and-so violate a provision, that might be a legal question. MR. TRULSON: Thank you. -13- MR. CADINHA: I have one question of Roxanna on a different subject. Since you advise the Council , in your opinion , does the Council of the County of Hawaii need its own legal counsel? MS. GARCIA: I think this Council does. I ' ll be very blunt with you since you have me here. I was with the City Attorney ' s Office in the City of Dallas for almost ten years before I came here. We had a council-manager form of government,. We had 57 attornies in the City Attorney ' s Office. Five divisions. Whenever the council wanted a legal opinion, they submitted the question in writing to our boss who was the city attorney. And our boss sent it to whatever division was most expertise in that particular question. Our council was elected every two years in staggered terms. We wrote hundreds of opinions in the ten years that I was there and not once were we ever accused of writing anything to favor one side or another. Nor did I ever hear of that happening before I came to the city. MR. CADINHA: Was it a stong mayor set .up, Roxanne., where you were? MS. GARCIA: Yes , a council-manager form lof government and the mayor was as strong as he happened to be by personality. For instance, one of our mayors was Eric Johnson, who wrote Goals for Dallas, which is a classic document among managers throughout the country. It is a. classic. He was chairman of Texas Instruments before he became mayor of the city of Dallas. And, by the way, when I was there, the mayor got $75 for each meeting he attended and the councilmen got $50 for every meeting they attended. But, at any' rate, I want to give you a little background so you' ll understand why my opinion is based son ' my personal experience. We were never, , ever accused in all those years that I was there of writing something to favor one side or the other. Okay? Now, when I write a legal opinion here and I have gotten into a dispute publicly, in a council meeting with our council Chairman over this very point. I write an opinion based on what I think the statutes say, what the cases say, what the trend is in the law, what the facts are. Now, I might be wrong but if I 'm wrong, I 'm intellectually wrong. I have misinterpreted or misread something if I 'm wrong. But, I do not and never have and never will write anything to satisfy one side or the other. Now, in the opinions I have rendered to our Council which have not been happy ones for them, there has been an immediate suspicion that I am-rpro administration. That I `am writing this to please the mayor-. Since it doesn ' t please them then it must be because I 'm trying to please the mayor. -14- The converse has happened, but privately. I have written things which have not pleased the mayor. And the mayor has let me know. But privately. And I said, Mayor, I 'm sorry but that ' s the way it goes. If you don ' t like it, I can ' t help it. This is what I think. And he has never accused me of writing anything to please the Council but he hasn ' t liked the fact that I haven ' t been able to come up with an opinion which is supportive of his position. So, because there is this enormous conflict between the two bodies. A lack of trust. A suspicion , between the two bodies. Constant battling. And because we are hired through the mayor, the Council might tend to suspect, to doubt our sincerity in drafting any kind of legal opinion. It is extremely difficult to work under those conditions. For me, it is extremely difficult. I would much prefer that the Council have someone they hire. Preferably under Act 62 as their own employee. They go pick them and they hire them and they' ll feel more comfor- table with that person because they will have hired that person and they can 't feel intimidated, perhaps, that the mayor is paying them. Actually, the people are paying us but we, . .the public is paying our salary but we do not advise the public. We only advise county officials. That is a very long winded explanation of why I think the Council should have their own legal advisor. I think that they would feel better. They'd feel more comfortable. It might reduce a lot of the infighting. Well I hope it would, at any rate. I would like to still be around because I just love Council '`meetings. I adore the drama. Anything else I can help you with on that point? MR. CADINHA: Thank you. MS. GARCIA: I may come anyway, if they get their own advisor. Okay, thank you, and perhaps I ' ll tell Mr. Miyashiro that we really need to schedule another meeting. Just let him come and he should rewrite this memo and submit it to you. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Thank you, very much. I think we would appreciate it, as Commission Members , if you would write these things out for us. Especially sections of the codes. It would be much easier for us to understand what he is talking about. MR. TRULSON: It may not be necessary for Mr. Miyashiro to appear until we perhaps come to this part of the Charter. But in the meantime he could submit another letter which we could file. -l5 MS. GARCIA: Well , I ' ll inform him and I assume you' ll inform also of your desires. Thank you. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Thank you, very much. STATUS OF The Chair called for the Status of Women WOMEN : testimony. MS. ASTE: My name is Ginny Aste and I 'm the Chair of the Mayor' s Committee on the Status of Women. We were created under the Charter Section 13-4 which empowers, I 'm assuming, I 'm not absolutely sure of this , the i `ayor to create a County Committee on the Status of Women. But, that came about because a number of people felt there_ should be County Committees of the Status of Women throughout the ' state. So, the Hawaii Revised Statutes 367-4 was written and passed by the Legislature. I 'm not sure what year, but probably about five or six years ago. Perhaps a little bit longer,:ago than that. In dealing with the mayor and his administra- tion on County Committee on Status of Women matters, we found that the mayor was sometimes a little unresponsive. Sometimes very responsive. But sometimes a little unrespon- sive to our requests. And it was brought up that he inter- preted Hawaii Revised Statutes 367-4 that the County Committee on the Status of Women were not advisory to the mayor but only to the State Commission on the Status of Women. So, through the help of some of our State Legislators and their wives we rewrote through the State Commission on the Status of Women the language of HRS 367-4 which now adds some language making the _County Committee-on��the Status of Women advisory, specifically, ` to the mayor as well as the State Commission on the Status of Women. Which means that we have a little more leverage when we go to the mayor and his administration for concerns of women. Particularly in employment and education to implement those requests. What I would like to ask you today is that you support the change submitted by the State Commission on the Status of Women for Hawaii Revised Statutes 367-4 in the form of a letter which would make the ,County Commission on the Status of Women advisory to the mayor. I realize that is the long way around. Another way would be for you to create a separate County Charter Section which deals with the County Commission on the Status of Women. If you wish to do that, I would like to urge that our numbers be increased. We now have about 16 members. However, as on many boards and commissions , some of the people who are appointed do not attend. .They agree to serve but they aren ' t always able to come. Sometimes they are very busy people in their own regard. We find that we have about 10 members waiting to be appointed, on the list. -16- And we have asked that they be appointed. The mayor is reluctant to grant that many members because he feels it is out of line with the numbers on the other boards and commissions. The only thing that we can say is that those people are already working side by side with the appointed members. So, in summary, I 'd like to suggest that you send a letter of support to the Governor. This is a housekeeping bill , I believe, in support of the change of wording in Hawaii Revised Statutes 367-4. That makes the County Commission on the Status of Women advisory to the mayor as well as to the State Commission. And that if you should feel that Women ' s concerns are important enough that you'd begin to think about , perhaps , a special section of the Charter that deals with the County Committee on the Status of Women. . But that might be a future plan. I don ' t expect that you will enact that this afternoon. I have a second concern, and I 'm not exactly sure how to go about this. One of our members on Status of Women is the County Personnel Director and two meetings ago he pulled together some statistics for us which indicated that overt- all the proportion of women applicants for County of Hawaii employment positions is 83% male and 17% female. He further told us that even in the clerical field the proportion of male applicants exceeds that of female applicants. Now, there could be many reasons for this and I am not sure what they are. But we feel that since this has been told to us by the County' s Personnel Director that we need some kind of corrective measures :or_ education program implemented by the County Personnel Director. By the mayor' s administration and by the State Employment Service. To go into intermediate schools and high schools to inform women about entry level county positions. Building inspector aide or beginning mechanic. Things that a male or female can qualify for if they know what some of the positions are and what they might take in high school. I 'm not talking about going on to four years of college, but for people who want vocational training while they are in high school. We do this for our young men. I do not necessarily feel we are doing this for our young women. That there are things that we could do. Now the County has an Affirmative Action plan. And the Affirmative Action Coordinator, who was recently appointed, suggested that I come here today and speak about this and that this is a concern on the County Committee on the Status of Women. That under Affirmative Action guidelines ,the County of Hawaii is obligated or beginning to get some=pressure because_:they:.'vereceived some federal funding for some of their contracts and so forth to implement some of the Affirmative -17- Action guidelines. We have a plan and there is some reluctance on the part of the County Personnel Director to, I believe he feels that he does not have specific powers to enable him to instruct other;=department heads to push a little harder for Affirmative Action which would create a better balance of male-female applicants as well as male-female employees. In terms of not only jobs, but in terms of salaries. These are our concerns. I would like to see this brought out some way in the Charter. The only research I have done on this is to find out that the County Personnel Director is appointed by the. . .there is a Civil Service connection here. I don ' t know if the Personnel Director is the one to implement some kind of Affirmative Action program or not. But I 'm suggesting to you that this needs to be done. In the light of the statistics we have about male and female applicants. What I gave you, the 83% 'to -the- 1.7% female applicants is overall. All county jobs. Not just entry level. =But I' would like to see the Charter Review Commission address this problem of Affirmative Action. That if there is a person in the county administration under the Charter who '., . could be empowered to help the Affirmative Action Coordinator and the State Employment Service implement a plan to bring the number of entry level applicants and overall applicants in balance, a better balance, I would like to see that started. And, I don ' t think I need to say this but the Committee on the Status of Women will assist you in any way that we can by gathering statistics or by making a suggestion if you wish that or two or three alternative plans or what- ever might be a way of approaching this. Do you have some questions? I realize that the things that you are talking about this afternoon are very specific and this is a kind of general thing coming in. There may not be a specific way to get at this through the Charter but I would like to see this considered. MR. SCHUTTE: Ma' am, what is your name again, please? MS. ASTE: Ginny Aste. MR. SCHUTTE: You say that there is an imbalance in the applications between men and women? Is this,--are you speaking about the acceptance of applications between men and women or are you speaking about applications in general? MS. ASTE: I believe the statistics was in overall applications received. 83% male and 17% female. And even in the clerical fields we see more male applications than female. MR. SCHUTTE: Is this just because women have not put in applications for any specific jobs? MS. ASTE: I 'm assuming, and I don ' t know for sure, but I 'm assuming that the word is not getting out about entry level jobs, for instance, that men or women could apply for. That ' s one area. -18- Perhaps we need better coverage from the State Employment side of letting women know what jobs are available at the county level and that they can apply for them. I think it is an educational gap. I think that is what we 're looking at. I 'm not sure. MR. SCHUTTE: How is then that the men , evidently, seem to be informed of what is available? Why is it that the women are not so informed, also? How can it be a negligence on the part of anybody? MS. ASTE: I don ' t think I used the word negligence. However, I do think that there could be imple- mented by the County of Hawaii , in order to conform with Affirmative Action guidelines , a program in the intermediate and secondary schools to inform women students of what they need to do to qualify for entry level positions and of the fact that the County of Hawaii does put out regular notices of its positions and, perhaps , going even farther some kind of role models such as Roxanna and some other people who are in what. .she ' s not in an alternative occupation, but in some of the occupations we think of as traditionally male. That they, too, could qualify for those positions . MR. SCHUTTE: I just can ' t seem to understand why this imbalance may exist. I can ' t understand why this imbalance is there if both male and female have the same opportunities to apply, to make application. MS. ASTE: Well , obviously, in some way the same opportunity is not .being offered. Whether it ' s information or whether it ' s prior training or whether it ' s just knowing, picturing a woman in a particular position. I 'm not, . .I don ' t know either. I 'm saying that this exists and yet we have Affirmative Action guidelines which are urging the county to correct some of the ethnic imbalance and some of the sex imbalance as far as the positions in the county. We have these guidelines and I 'm saying that we, maybe, could approach it from another direction. From what I understand, unofficially, is that the County Personnel Director does not feel that he is empowered. . .that is , he feels that he is on a level equal to other department heads and that he cannot go in and tell them what to do, that he does not have that power. I 'm not sure who has it but I believe that maybe the County Charter could field that with Affirmative Action components. MR. SCHUTTE: If the applicant, regardless of sex is qualified to do a particular job, the job description does not specifically state that it has to be a male, does it? MS. ASTE: No, but often because of the lack of female role models shown to women students they do not think of themselves in traditionally male occupations. -19- MR. SCHUTTE: Then I think that kind of goes back to them being able to assume this and do whatever they feel is necessary to assume whatever role they may _want to undertake in later years. I don ' t know what else' could be done if it is left open outside of going out and -beating the bushes to try to get more women to apply for mechanics jobs or other things like that. I don ' t really know how it can be done any other way than the actual individual if interested in a particular type of work getting out and applying for it or making requests for application for it. I think the opportunity is there for men and women and it is a matter of women deciding and doing it. I don 't think that becomes a part of the. . .I can ' t see at this moment how it could become apart of the Charter. Or how we could enhance the position any more without the women doing most of this themselves. MS. ASTE: Well , as I read the Charter and I 'm not a student of the Charter. I have read it a couple of times. But that the Affirmative Action Coordinator is a discretionary job that the mayor can create, which he has done. But, that that position is an advisory one. And that doesn ' t appear in the Charter anywhere. What I 'm saying is that Affirmative Action is a really important concern to the county and that there may be a way to get at it through strengthening the powers of the County Personnel Director or another department head or person to coordinate with tbe _Affirmative Action Coordin- ator and the State Employment Service to increase the possibilities that young women will apply for county jobs. MRS. KOBAYASHI : Ms. Aste, do you know if maybe Honolulu or, Kauai or Maui ' s Charter has some statement in therethat.,. ®-_ - MS. ASTE: No, I don ' t know. . . MRS. KOBAYASHI: It might help _us-- to find a place. I would encourage something to be in writing but , at this point, I don ' t know where you would put it. MS. ASTE: I don 't know either, I just bring that concern to you because it ' s one of the major concerns that I have seen over the past year that has been brought before the Committee on the Status of Women by the County Personnel Director. We have talked about it many times and everybody seems to feel that there isn ' t anything that they can do about it. Yet, the county is being pressured to implement Affirmative Action. I don ' t think that is any secret. The plan is there and it has been written and the implementation is going ahead slow or fast depending on what department you are working with. Maybe that is a good suggestion. That I can do a little bit of research and find out if this is approached in any other way in any other county. -20- Do you think that I could have a determination about a letter of support in regard to the changing of the legislative language? The first thing that I mentioned? MR. SCHUTTE: Ma'am, are you directing the question to me? MS. ASTE: No, I 'm sorry. In general to. . CHAIRMAN SAKATA: What was this proposal? MS. ASTE: The first concern was the change in the wording of the Hawaii Revised Statutes, Section 367-4. Which talks about making the County Committees on Status of Women advisory to the mayor as well as to the . tate Commission. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Right now, you are not advising the mayor, at all? This group that is filing? MS. ASTE: Yes , that was his interpretation. He said well if you changed the language of the Hawaii Revised Statute then I. . . MR. SCHUTTE: Mr. Chairman, before this goes any further, I think this involves something that we have absolutely no control over, whatsoever. This is an RL that you are requesting to have changed and this has nothing to do with the Charter or any change in the Charter. We have no control over this, whatsoever. It does not pertain to the Charter. It is an RL and that is a State Legislation. We have nothing to do with that, whatsoever. MS. ASTE: Okay. There is no, you feel that there is no connection although we are authorized. . .the County Commission of the Status of Women is organized under Charter Section 13-4 Boards and Commissions. That is the only section of the Charter that deals with us. This was done from the top. The legislative act was voted in and then the County Committees on on the Status of Women were formed all over the state. Because there is no Charter section specifically dealing with County Committees on the Status of Women , we were brought in under Section 13-4. MR. TRULSON: Mr. Schutte, if you turn to Section 15-3 and what the duties of the Charter Commission are. I believe what you are asking for is like a letter of recommendation , or approval , or seeking help for what you want. I think , under the Charter, we may propose an amendment to the Charter. But, I don 't believe we have the power to do what you are requesting, Ms. Aste. That is my opinion. MS. ASTE: So we would have to ask for a specific Charter amendment to deal with County Committees on the Status of Women and include the language that is in the Hawaii Revised Statutes. -21- MR. TRULSON: You can propose an amendment to the existing Charter, but just how you go about it I really can ' t tell you. I would imagine a written proposal for consideration under the chapter of the Charter you want. But, I don ' t believe that we could write a letter to any other body requesting it be considered. MS. ASTE: Okay. MR. CADINHA: Mr. Chairman , I think that it is important just to note what her recommendation is for future deliverance. That we can think about it and when that portion of the Charter comes under review if there is anything that can be added and that the general consensus is thoadd, fair. And if not, fair also. I think we are all under the impression that you want us under. That you feel it is important and I think it should just be noted. That is all , Mr. Chairman. MS. ASTE: Would you prefer that I submit the request for support for the Hawaii Revised Statutes revision in the form of a Charter revision? Which would be a specific Charter section dealing with the County Committees on the Status of Women? Or some kind of revision to the Section 13-4? I think what we are doing is fighting for recognition of County Committees on the Status of Women and it isn ' t a secret that it is a little difficult to get. So what we would need, then, would be a Charter amendment that would deal specifically.°mile mould be one of the commiss- ions empowered. . . MR. CADINHA: What you are looking for is official existence that is written into the Charter, I think. MS. ASTE: That ' s right. :Instead =of being slid in under 13-4 where we don ' t have any real way to implement what the State Legislature has put down. Provided this amendment goes into effect through the State Legislature. MR. CADINHA: I would think Mr. Trulson ' s suggestion isgood that you can submit to this Commission. What do you think , Mr. Chairman , whatever you think is the proper placement and the proper verb.iage.,. Then when we get to drafting the thing. . CHAIRMAN SAKATA: We ' ll take Mr. Schutte ' s consideration also that since we are dealing with a. statute of the state, we cannot. . . . MR. SCHUTTE: Mr. Chairman, my position is that Ms. Aste' s request that we amend a revised law, we have no authority to do that. If she wants to request that a -22- specific portion be included in the Charter that recognizes the Status of Women, she may submit that in writing as to her proposal but as far as changing any part of the RL this is entirely out of our hands. It over- - shadows us, anyway. MS. ASTE: It overshadows , but the problem is that there is nothing specifically in the Charter that, you know, there is no way to get at. . . MR. SCHUTTE: I understand that. But, like I said, the only thing we can suggest to you is that you make a formal request in writing that you would like this considered that it be added to the Charter or implemented with the Charter. But, as far as touching the amendment or trying to amend, or even talking about changing the RL, is entirely out of our hands. We have no right or jurisdiction in which to do this at this time. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Thank you, very much. FINANCE The Chair introducted Stanley Nakamae, DEPARTMENT: Director of Finance. MR. NAKAMAE: Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission. My name is Stanley Nakamae. I am the Director of Finance for the County of Hawaii Department of Finance. Each of you have been given a copy of my prepared statement on the Department of Finance which I will try to summarize, very briefly. The Finance Department is a staff agency charged with theresponsibility of providing centralized financial services to other departments and agencies. There are four divisions. The Accounts Division, Budgeting, Purchasing and Treasury` Division. The specific functions and organization chart are included in the attachment on pages 4 and 5 . As far as the Charter sections pertaining to the Department of Finance, I believe they are satisfactory at the-present time. I 'd like to, however, make a few suggestions and these are very minor ones. First of all , a redefinition of lapsing of appropriation for capital expenditure. And that proposal is outi ned' on pages 6 and 7. Secondly, the shifting of burden of verifying of the availability of funds for small purchases and obli- gations from the Director of Finance to the respective agency heads. Thirdly, the addition of a centralized purchasing section which is very similar to that of the City and County of Honolulu. -23- I should also like to comment on a few other sections. First. . .it. is the apparent conflict between the Sections 3-12 and 10-8. This pertains to the emergency borrowing of moneys and perhaps this could be looked into. Second. . .Section 3-13 on the effective date of the budget and the time element that pertains to the veto of budget ordinances. Third. . .just a comment on Section 5-3. 1. In practice, the Planning Director is the one that prepares the capital budget and he also participates in its execution as so do we in the Finance Department. Fourth. . .Section 10-2 on the Preparation and Submission of the Budget and Capital Program. a. The recent Constitutional amendment that provides for a five day, mid-session break reduces the time for the preparation of the final budget for sub- mittal to the Council. However, we don ' t view this as posing a real problem. b. We do prepare a six-year operating program rather than the three that is required in the present Charter and this is to cover the same time period as the capital program. c. We also provide the Council with the proposed ordinances for the operating budget and capital budget. d. We provide summaries for general distribution to the public instead of the large and heavy full budget document. Finally, the mayor has asked that I submit some short proposals of major significance in order to assure that they are placed on the agenda for this session by this body. And these are: One, a Mandatory Program Review Section. Sometimes call the Sunset Law. That is described on page 16. Two, a more stringent Bonded Debt Limit provision. That is explained on page 17. Three, a very short proposal for an expenditure limit. In addition to the material that you have I have also supplied some tables with some financial infor- mation which should be of interest to you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for this opportunity. I shall be happy to answer any questions. -24- MR. CADINHA: Just for some familiarity about how the Board of Water Supply fits in financially with your CIP and operating budgets. Mechanically, what do they do every year? Who is their reviewing body and vetoing authority? Is it part of your-,or the mayor' s CIP operating budget, or not? MR. NAKAMAE: No, Mr. Cadinha, they are completely separate. They are an autonomous , independent agency. They have their own executive body that would review the budget of.,both the operating and the capital budget of the Board of Water Supply. They_ have to go through a public hearing process just like we do, our own budget and they are not coordinated or tied into any of our budgets at all. They have their own water fund that they maintain. All of their moneys are deposited with the County Treasurer' s office and we do the assessment of these funds for them. Otherwise they have full control over their expenditures. During the legislative session, we did kind of get together and submit together with the rest of the county some suggestions for possible funding at the legislative level that is about all. MR. CADINHA: How much do they depend on the county' s budget for funding - ordinarily? MR. NAKAMAE: None at all for operating purposes. For CIP sometimes when we receive federal funds that could be channeled for some of their projects, we do that. MR. CADINHA: Are there any other ways that you can finance t1em` and have financed themin the past? MR. NAKAMAE: We have loaned them money for construction for the baseyard building which they are paying back without interest. You 've read about the $2 million dollar water project in '-,South Kohala. Although that is considered to be a water project_it is being undertaken by the county and the county will be issuing its own general obligation bonds to finance the project. But it will be processed and managed by the Deprtment- Of Water Supply. MR. CADINHA: The head of the Water Board commented about rating, bond rating. What is their rating and what is the county's? MR. NAKAMAE: I really don ' t know what their rating is. They haven 't issued a bond since 1950 or 1953 or thereabouts. That was their last bond issue. Most of their CIP moneys are received from the state. Some of their projects are also undertaken by the Department of Land and Natural Resources. We have a single A rating and that is third from the top. Triple A, double A, the state is double A, we 're single A. -25- If the Water Department. . .by the way:;: they cannot sell any general obligation bonds but they can sell revenue bonds secured by and paid back from revenues from their operations. If they do need money then they would be using the county' s credit and buying abilities in order to provide them with funds. MR. CADINHA: So there really shouldn ' t be a difference in their rating. Is that correct? MR. NAKAMAE: That ' s right, because we ' ll be issuing bonds for them. MR. CADINHA: Is there anything functionally, Mr. Nakamae, that your department does that this semi-auto- nomous body, this Water body does? Is there any duplication? MR. NAKAMAE: Yes, they have ,their own purchasing section. I think it is still comprised of just one person but, nevertheless , there is a person who does all of their purchasing. They have their own accounting section. So, in that respect, there could be some prospects of, perhaps, savings through consolidation. MR. CADINHA: I 'm just curious, why did they use general obligation money on that $2 million dollar water project and not float any revenue bonds? MR. NAKAMAE: Well , as you know, Mr. Cadinha, our general obligation bonds will be getting a lower interest rate than the revenue bonds and I think this is the primary reason for it. MR. TRULSON: Mr. Nakamae, I notice on your schematic of the department in the purchasing division , you have one purchasing agent and two buyers and a senior clerk. You mean there is one purchasing agent for the entire county? MR. NAKAMAE: County, yes , Sir. MR. TRULSON: And the Water Department also has one purchasing agent. One person for _the_ Water:-Departme,nt? MR. NAKAMAE: The Water Department has one employee. MR. TRULSON: Who does the purchasing? MR. NAKAMAE : Who is doing the buying, yes. So, sometimes you ' ll notice in the paper some legal advertisements. Invitations to bidders of automobiles to be purchased for the Water Supply and at the same time we would have one for a purchase of a vehicle for the Water Department. -26- MR. TRULSON: But all of the supplies that are necessary to the operation of the Water Department( would be purchased by that particular person? MR. NAKAMAE : Yes. MR. CADINHA: Mr. Nakamae, about the mayor ' s bonded debt limit and expenditure limit. Could you elaborate just a little bit? I know one is 5% of appraised value limit insofar as debt. Why 5%? Why the concern about a limit? MR. NAKAMAE: This is a reflection of a concern by the people as evidenced by the last Constitutional Convention deliberations about trying to put some kind of a hold on the expenditures as well as the borrowing of the government in general . We do have a constitutional limit now of 15% of net assessed value. I think there is a calculation in one of the tables. This is in Table VIII:.- It shows- net assessed value. The debt limit of 15% of that value is ' $140 million. Our outstanding debt, now, is something like $40 million dollars. This is a wide margin so it is not up to capacity yet for the issuance of bonds. But, we know, too, that we ' ll never be hitting that kind of debt position..' We Oust couldn 't afford to pay it back. The state has gone into a different method of becoming what should be a reasonable limit, laprudent limit for debt and theirs is based on a ratio of debt 'service . charges. How much you are going to have to pay back every year, to how much base income base that you have. I think that is kind of complicated, too, but that is another reasonable way of doing it. The 5% limit that would be on full market value. The next page is a reproduction of the Third Taxation District ' s real-profit tax values and you' ll notice that this is a later valuation than the one that is shown on Table VIII. Let me use this as an example. Under the total column of this last page of the Tax Office Report, way down to the Valuation for Tax Rate Purposes you' ll find the figure of $1 , 074, 685 . Now this is a 60% value from full market. So converting that to full market value you get almost $1.8 billion dollars of valuations. And the 5% would be based on it. So the 5% limit then would be around $90 million dollars. Still way less from the 15% of net assessed value which is something like $150 million dollars. And this proposed debt limit will bring it down to about $90 million dollars. Our outstanding debt, presently, is somewhere around $40 million dollars. It ' s a move really into a what we think is a desirable direction; yet_ there would be-: sufficient latitude, there would be sufficient capacity to issue additional bonds in the event it is necessary. It is not that kind of a restrictive limit that is going to hamstring the county. -27- I s MR. CADINHA: I wonder about the spending limit, Mr. Nakamae. MR. NAKAMAE: The spending limit is. . .I think it is going to be kind of a cont overei!al one and I think we need to air it. I think we need to determine whether there is a need for a spending limit. Whether_ there is a desire for a county spending limit. You know that the state has now a state spending limit. A ceiling. And whether the same thing should apply to the county. This is the reason for proposing it. There are many considerations. They don 't want to get into a situation where we are bound by it very tightly and yet we can feel the concerns of the people and that the growth of the county government expenditures has risen to quite an extent at a rate that it should be held down. And as you keep these down, you know that something will have to give. There are going to be trade offs involved. It is not defined that well as to what should be the rate of growth. Instead of using personal income as this kind of a measure. But the legislature is wrestling with this problem at the present time. It is something that, perhaps, would not apply to us because we don ' t depend on personal income as much as some other base which could be a real-property tax base. There are some pitfalls in trying to use, or disadvantages in trying to use a rate limit or a revenue limit because if we get into a situation. . .and you are well aware. . .that the bonds that are issued where there is a;. revenue limit may be classified as limited tax bonds which would carry then a lower rate and as such we 'd have to pay more then to issue those bonds. So that we 're looking at a ceiling on expenditure rather than a ceiling on revenue. It kind of works out to the same effect. The bonds that are issued by the county are general obligation bonds. They are the full faith and credit type of bonds. They are first charge on ._revenue-so I don ' t know how much it will influence the" rating on those bonds. As long as everyone recagnizes that the first thing you do when you, have revenues for the county, you set aside as much as; you need to repay the bonds and whatever is left you use for other services and purposes. I think that perhaps this proposal is going to require an additional amount of study as to the details of it. I know that as proposed it would leave the details to the Council to determine. MR. CADINHA: In essence, this is_ a basically looking for no deficit financing situation. Is _that -what the bottom line of this is, Mr. Nakamae? MR. NAKAMAE: We must have a balanced budget in any event. I think what we do want to have discussed is whether they want to be a cap on the rate of growth of governmental or county expenditures. -28- MR. CADINHA: The present Charter with respect to Iniative and Referendum does not encompass any kind of populus reversal or any kind of fiscal policy. In your opinion , would it be detrimental to the county operation to have fiscal realm thrown into the Iniative and Referendum or should it be left out? MR. NAKAMAE: I believe that it is some- thing perhaps that should be kept out. As pertains to the budget that we are offering under. I think there are ample opportunities during the deliberations to have our inputs into the feelings as to whether they concur with the budget or whether it aught to be modified or whatever. MR. CADINHA: The hearings, that is what you are referring to? MR. NAKAMAE: Yes , the hearings. The budget hearings. I believe that is sufficient as far as giving the people an opportunity to input and to comment and react on the_ budget. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Are there any further questions? MR. TRULSON: I think I ' ll have many questions later after I 've been able to read the material you've given us. Perhaps at a later date after we've had a chance to read and ask you some further questions on your proposed amendments. MR. NAKAMAE: I 'd be ,very happy to return . MRS. KOBAYASHI: Regarding the three proposals. You said the bond and debt limit the state has is a different variation and the expenditure limit, the state now has one. Right? MR. NAKAMAE: There is a Constitutional bond and debt limit for counties as well as the state which is a little different, more liberal than this proposal. There is a state government spending limit but not a county spending limit. MRS. KOBAYASHI: Do the other counties have one at this present time? MR. NAKAMAE: No. MRS. KOBAYASHI : None of the county charter amendments. MR. NAKAMAE: No. I know that the state constitutional amendment members were considering a county government spending limit but they felt that it was some- thing that should be left to the local government. -29- MRS. KOBAYASHI : Then what about the Sunset Law? Do other charters provide for this , that you know of? MR. NAKAMAE: Not in this state. I 'm sure there would be others in other jurisdictions on the mainland. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: I thank you, very much, Mr. Nakamae. OFFICE OF The Chair called for the testimony of the AGING: Office of Aging. Dennis Shigeta, Program Coordinator was present. MR. SHIGETA: My name is Dennis Shigeta. I am the Program Coordinator with the Hawaii County Office of Aging. I am representing William Takaba who was not able to be here tonight. But he did submit a report and I will be glad to answer any questions the Commission might have. MR. TRULSON : You evidently come under Section 13-4 of the present Charter. .Boards and Commissions. MR. SHIGETA: You mean the Committee on Aging? MR. TRULSON: Right. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Your committee is similar to the Committee on the Status of Women. You are not mentioned in the County Charter. It says here that you serve in an advisory capacity to the mayor. You have 15 members here. MR. SHIGETA: There is just, one comment I 'd like to make. There was an Act 217 that was passed by the State Legislature and part of that Act was to kind of dictate what the structure would be on the local level of the Committee on Aging and Office on Aging. One of the counties challenged that on the basis of home rule and I believe they did win and since our office is not under the Charter, the Office on Aging, maybe that is one consideration that the Commission should look at because there seems to be more emphasis on home rule and not having a state dictate what the local structure is going to be. So that is one thing that should be considered. MR. TRULSON: State Act 217? MR. SHIGETA: Right. I think it is in the process of being amended because there was_ a court case and the courts ruled in favor. of home rule. It was Maui County_® MR. TRULSON: Does Maui County have anything in their Charter on the Office of Aging? MR. SHIGETA: Right. They are under their Charter. They opposed the Act 217 on the basis of home rule. _30_ MR. SCHUTTE: Mr. Shigeta, do you come under the Department of Parks and Recreation? MR. SHIGETA: No, we do not. The Office of Aging is directly under the mayor. MR. TRULSON: I believe it comes under Section 13-4. MR. OMONAKA: Your department has not been set up by the county, by state statute. MR. SHIGETA: Originally, the Office of Aging, that is the office I work under. We have a Committee on Aging that more or less acts as an advisory board, to us. Besides that there is a elderly activities division under the Parks and Recreation that provides direct services. We do not provide direct services under the Office of Aging. We secure the funds. We do the planning of the developmental programs and we contract it out and one of the contractors would be the Parks and Recreation elderly activities division. Going back to your question, the Office of Aging is a designated area agency and through the Old Americans Act it was created. In terms of on the local level , I really don ' t know how it was created. MR. OMONAKA: Not through the State Legislature? MR. SHIGETA: I really can ' t answer that question. I really don ' t know. Oh, yes, I guess it would be under the State Legislature. MR. CADINHA: How do you people work with the senior citizens? Or is that you? MR. SHIGETA: You mean directly? MR. CADINHA: The senior citizens programs where they have their. . .I 'm not sure I understand their mechanics. MR. SHIGETA: The Office of Aging is responsible for the overall planning for the senior programs and developing new programs. For coordinating and pooling whatever resources in a community. In fact, we cannot provide direct services by law, by the Old Americans Act. So what we do, we secure the funds that come through us and we contract it out to whatever agency that we feel can best provide that service. The bulk of it has been under the Parks and Recreation. MR. CADINHA: Thank you. -31- MRS. KOBAYASHI : Mr. Shigeta, in the Office of Aging only two are Civil Service and the rest are exempt. Does that mean the exempt positions are federally funded then? MR. SHIGETA: No, it doesn ' t necessarily , mean it is federally funded. MRS. KOBAYASHI : So, where. . . MR. SHIGETA: It ' s just that we don't have Civil Service status except for the executive and also for the secretary. MRS. KOBAYASHI:: _ But the executive is not an appointee of the mayor? He is an appointee of the mayor but he has Civil Service status. MR. SHIGETA: Originally when the program was formed there was only the executive and a secretary and at that time they were given Civil Service status. As the programs grew staffs were added but they were not given Civil Service status. It ' s an exempt contractual position. MRS. KOBAYASHI : Through county funds? Through matching county funds? MR. SHIGETA: Originally it was federally funded as far as the positions itself. But today it is . . the county is paying for the positions. It is county funded. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Any other questions? No questions. Thank you, very much. RECESS: At 5 : 35 p.m. the Chair called for a short recess. RECONVENE: At 5 :50 p.m. the meeting reconvened with all members present. BUSINESS The Chair called the meeting to order and OF THE DAY: directed the Committee return to the departmental testimonies. MASS Originally scheduled for Commission TRANSIT: appearance today, Barney Menor, Coordinator has been rescheduled for March 6. -32- PUBLIC It was moved, seconded and unanimously carried HEARINGS: that the following Rules of Procedure on public hearings and statements taken from the public RULES OF be adopted: PROCEDURE: AND 1. All those desiring to speak will STATEMENTS register with the secretary prior FROM to the date of the meeting giving THE name, address, organization they PUBLIC: represent. 2. The Chairman will call the name at which time they will come for- ward to the microphone to speak. They will be informed that all statements will be taped. 3. Those speaking must make their remarks directly to the Commission of an instructive nature regarding the Charter. 4. At the discretion of the Commission each person will be allowed a specific number of minutes to speak. ADJOURNMENT: There being no further business , the meeting was adjourned at 6:55 p.m. , until Tuesday, February 20, 1979, at 3: 30 p.m. , Hawaii County Councilroom. e4w-tegeer- Joan Carnett RECORDING SECRETARY -33-