HomeMy WebLinkAboutCHC 1979-03-13 HAWAII COUNTY CHARTER COMMISSION
MINUTES
9th Session
March 13 ,, 1979
Hilo; Hawaii
The ninth session of the Hawaii County Charter Commission
was called to order at 3 : 35, p.m. in the Hawaii County Council-
room, Hawaii County Building, Hilo, Hawaii , by Mr. Kimiaki
Sakata; Chairman .
The roll recorded the following:
Present Mr. Harlan Cadinha .
Mr. Richard Ishida
Mrs. Amy Iwamoto
Mrs.. Gloria Kobayashi
Mr. Akira Omonaka
Mr. Kimiaki Sakata
Mr. Spencer Kalani Schutte
Mr. Joseph Trulson
Mr. Matsuo Yanaga
Absent Mr. Herman Sensano
and Mr. Basilio Yagong
Excused :
Also Attorney Stuart Oda
Present: Recording Secretary Joan Carnett
GUEST The Chair called for the rules to be suspended
COMMITTEE : and consideration of suggested proposals for
Charter revision by the guest committee be
accepted.
Motion was made by Mr. Schutte.
Seconded by Mrs. Kobayashi and
unanimously carried.
WEST HAWAII The Chair introduced Mr. William W. Moss ,
COMMITTEE: Chairman, West Hawaii Charter Review Subcommittee
and members Mr. Jack Fitzgibbons and Mr. Frank
Zuzayk .
MR. MOSS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you,
very much for asking us over here today. We are very honored to
be, apparently, the first nongovernmental organization asked to
come to talk to you on this very important project.
I 'd like to ask. you first how you would like
me to proceed. I have a little presentation here which I think
will take about fifteen minutes. Would you like to have that
or would you rather just ask questions about our deliberations ;
why we made the recommendations in our letters to you or note
CHAIRMAN SAKATA: You may proceed any w'ay you
want. I think it probably would be much better if you present
your testimony at' th:eZmeeti.n.g;Yfst so we can understand what
is going on and then we can- ask questions.
MR. MOSS: Fine, thank you very much. First,
I 'd like to sayj:jaust one thing about the West Hawaii Committee
so you will know who we are. Basically, we are a group of non-
partisan, concerned citizens in Kona. The original purpose of
the organization when it started about ten years ago was to try
to get a little bit better representation for Kona and a little
more attention from the government for Kona and West Hawaii
problems , insgeneral. However, we have. come a long way since
that initial period and today we are much more interested--we
are still interested in Kona, obviously--but we are more inter-
ested, particularly so today in things that are of general
interest to the citizens of the Hawaii County.
Our members have had world-wide experience in
many fields and we average a little bit over 22 years in the
islands each. We meet once a week. We 've had quests quite
often for luncheon . We've had the - Mayor; we 've hada majority
of the County Council ; we've had department heads ; we 've had
people from the mainland occasionally come in. We try to get
as much information as we can on various subjects and we try to
make our expetise and our background experience available to
anybody who would like to take advantage of it.
We started studying the charter back in
November because we feel it is probably the most important •
political event going on in the county for this year and it is
going to set the pace for the county for the next 10 years.
I 'd like to take the points we made in our
letter to you of late February sort of right down the line and
try to explain to you how we think they meet the objective, our
determin-
ation
objective of reestablishing the people as the de t
ation of the form of government we get here as opposed to the
growth of big government in this county Into the past 10 years
under the present charter. For example;' in the past 10 years
the county population has grown 27% but the county employees
have grown 65%. The operating budget, corrected for inflat,ion ,
has increased 100% and the debt service, again correctdd forme-_.
inflation, has increased 120%. The.. county debt has rise-from
$10 million to '$40 million. That is not corrected for inflation.
That is just plain dollars. And we are running $5 or $6 million
a year of more debt as we go along. Well , somewhere, it seems
to me this has to stop and one of the things that we are looking
at here is the reestablishrnent ,of somescontrol over the growth
of this government.
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There are a number of ways it can be done.
To begin with we werevery interested in the possibility of
going to a county-manager form of government as opposed to
an elected mayor. At first glance this looked very attractive.
We got--through the help of Councilman Dahlberg--we obtained
the statutes of eight states permitting county and city-manager
forms of government. We looked at 6 county charters and we
found that they all had a couple of things in common. One was
that they specified a person to have qualifications to be the
county manager that sounded very, very good on paper. But the
more we talked to people, and we talked to several people who
had had experience, actual experience of the manager form of
government--that it is very difficult to find people with the
experience level that is specified who are acceptable to the
people of a city or a county and who are adaptable to come in
from the outside and take over. We found that as the people
stayed on as manager they tended to get into the empire building
business and it was very difficult to control . So our final
decision , having looked at it quite carefully .,,and in effect
reversing the opinions of a great many of _purmembers--the
committee unanimously decided we would, do much he'tter_t'o
Improve the presentcouncil-mayor form of government which we
presently have rather than start on a new form with all the.
attendant growing pains. In other words, we really said we
believe, in general , in evolution--building on what we have
rather than tearing down what we have and starting all over
again.
Well , now how do we change the council-mayor
relationship to tend to put the people back in the loop, and
number one, we felt that the County Council needs considerably
more staff help than they have had in the past. I think this
has been proposed to you by several other people and so far I
haven ' t heard any opposition to that fact so I won ' t really
dwell on it. But I might note that of all the councilmembers
who havecome and talked to us , I think this has been unanimous
among them that they feel the need of staff people who can go
back and answer questions run things down for them' give them
digests on complicated issues and in roth`ewords, give them good
bases for sounddecisions rather than just taking department
heads ' words , or the Mayor' s words , as gospel truth. Number
two, we also feel , and I think this is again agreed with by
practically everybody, that the council should have its own
legal counsel rather than depending on the corporation counsel .
He is really the representative of the county and the Mayor
rather than the côuncil , and , 'number two, we felt that we should
strengthen the council by giving it the approval or disapproval
of all department head nominations. Today only two are subject
to' council approval; -the corporation counsel. and .the planning
director® The other members of the Mayor ' s department heads
and his staff, we think , should be approved by the council just
the same as the corporation counsel and the planning -director.
Number three, . and this is not a big point, but we've heard quite
a bit of criticism of the Mayor' s moving money around from one
account to another, so that though the council has appropriated
for one thing it winds up doing something else® Section 10-9
of the charter is pretty unclear as to where the Mayor' s powers
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start and where they end in the business of transferring funds
arou'n'd. It seems to me that we need some charter language
which straightens that paragraph out and says that above a
certain amount any rt.ransfer of appropriated funds has tobe
done with council approval.
The next area that we think we need some
controls is in relation to the budget. The growth of the
budget; the growth of the debt and the property taxes.
All of the proposals that we have put in our
letter we try to be reasonable about. There arelimits that
can be lived with today but they do put a certain amount of
brake or lid on what happens in the future. For instance;'
the first requirement is that the operating budget should be
balanced. In other words, we should know where the money
comes from before we put it in the budget. Incidentally, this
is in the present charter-this is nothing new. But the rate
of growth of that budget, we think , should be tied to the rate
of growth of the county economy. We propose that it be
measured by the growth ;i>n the excise tax. It is a little un.
clear in our letter as to what we really meant and we spoke
about 4% as a basic tax rate of the excise tax, well, now that
isn ' t quite true looking at it. And I also found out that
there is available on a yearly basis the so-called excise tax
base of the county so that may be a good measure of the rate of
growth of the county economy. I might point out that the con-
con amendments of this past year-that was one of the things,
that was imposed on the rate of growth of the state budget that
it should be tied to the economy.
Incidentally, as I say, we try to be reasonable
and put limits that can be lived with. A limitation of that
sort is not very far out of line with what has happened over the
past 10 years. Although from year to year thereNhave been some
major increases in the neighborhood of 13% and 14% in the
budget from one year to the next when, the county economy didn ' t
rise that fast. Over the 10 year period the excise tax base and
the county budget has risen approximately the same rate.
Actually, the excise tax rate has risen somewhat less than the
budget. It will provide a cap, certainly, on the rate of rise
of the budget and take off Some of the pressure to look fornew
revenues and new taxes.
Our debt service proposal says that the payments
for principle and interest on the county debt should not exceed
15% of the 3 year running average of the general fund expendi-
tures. Over the past few years we have been getting quite close
to that 15% limit. The, debt service back in 1968 was 11%. For
a couple of years thereafter it ran around '7%. BiAtarting in
1972 it jumped up. ' 73 even more up to 12% of the operating
budget and in fiscal 1978 it was 131/2% of the operating budget.
So if you impose a 15% ceiling on it you are not upsetting the
present budget. Nothing drastic has to happen as to the amount
of money that can be borrowed but you are putting a lihit on it
in the future. And a 15% limit', I think , is really quite
reasonable.
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Mr. Nakamae made a proposal that the, debt
limit should be 5% of the actual market value of the real
property in : he county. At the present time this would put
a limit‘ of $83 million on the debt as of the last actual
market value of property fiigure that I was able to obtain.
Now this is over twice our present debt and says that we
are going to have a large increase in debt service if that
limitation were perm` tted to be in there. So I don ' t think
that-- as a practical proposal is any limitation whatsoever.
Then we come to property taxes. Our real
objecttve here is to keep long time residents from being taxed
out of their property. As a personal example, I lived in Long
Island , New York for 24 years and on one piece of property for
22 years. When I went there my taxes were $200 a year and
this continued for several years and then things began expanding
around there and before I left my taxes were $1 , 700 a year and
they were going up 15% a year. This is beginning to happen.
Particularly over in the Kona area where the value of real
estate is rising rapidly. The long time residents find that
they are staying on one piece of property and yet their taxes
are going up 10% and 15% a year. Not just because you are
changing the tax rate at all but because the valuation of the
property rises. So their actual tax bill is going up.
If we go to some kind of a formol+a like
Proposition13 in California, this is one way of preventing
that® Whereby you set a limit and in our case we are proposing
1% of the assessed value of the property. Let me, clarify that,
Actually, what we are saying is that right now we want to put
a limit of 1%-that the total tax on a piece of property shall
not exceed 1% of its fair market value at this time and that
value. . .excuse me, I 'm getting all messed up here. What I 'm
really saying is that we want to keep the ':tax on property right
now bout, Ohere it is because the county,, realizes just very,
very slightly over 1% of the fair marketYkvalue of property
today. This is after taking into account the exemptions, home
owners exemptions and the exemptions for age. Actually, the
county average is just about 1% of the• fair market value. So
if we freeze the taxes where they are today and say they cannot
rise more than 2% a year until the property is sold at which
time the assessed value will become the fair market value and
the same 2% limitation applies from thena on ® So that whenever
property changes hands the person who gets it finds that his
taxes are based on the fair market value at the time he buys
it and the person who has his property today and keeps it finds
that he is paying a slightly greater tax rate but not anything
of the order of 10% or 15% rise per year.
You can 't exactly write a limitation in our
charterOwordafor word to Proposition 13 because the situation
over .hereSlls different with the home owners exemption and things
like that.
To me, I would like to stress , that all three
of the limitations that we propose do not pose any county
problem now but they are designed to put a gentle brake on
continued growth of big government. Basically, by cutting down
the amount of money that is available to be spent.
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We have one more thing we ''d: like to mention
to you today which was not included in our letter. I would
like Mr. Zuzack to talk about it and that are some ideas that
we have on the reorganization of the county administration.
We have enough copies here if you would like to see them_ so
that you can understand what we are talking about.
MR. 'ZUZAX: .z, The objective is to provide
thought of consolidating the county' s departments and commiss-
ions for greater efficiency and effectiveness. These are just
suggestions for you for your consideration in strengthening
the administrative function by a more directly responsive and
responsible organization chart of the County of Hawaii.
These are based upon the charter and the charter has provided
the organizational chart which is now being used. So if you
will follow you will observe that we have endeavored to con-
solidate to strengthen and to provide many of the services ,
either commission or department, under the heads of certain
departments. Now, we are not recommending to you that they
be exactly like this is by any manner of means. We are only
giving you thought. We are not recommending, necessarily,
the names as you see under the deputy managing director, the
department of public service and the department of public
affairs'. It is only with the idea of collecting these together
and the names are not significant in the sense of the word that
that is the total objective we are trying to convey. They just
happen to be applicable.
The consolidation, first ,of all , the 'm'ayor
in the older organizational chart-the managing director is next
in line below the mayor and then the deputy managing director
and we feel that it might be wise to consider the managing
director with a counterpart of the deputy managing director and
under each of those would be several departments. We consider
that on that level of the three reporting to the mayor, that
it should include the department of finance and purchasing.
To consolidate purchasing which is currently
done by several different departments wIthin the county, if it
is put together--meshed with the department of finance we feel
a number of efficiencies and well economies will be effected.
Going back to the left now under the managing
director, a consolidation of the planning and theresearchand
development departments. Then the consolidation of the
department of public works, water, parks and recreation and
the corporation counsel. We felt that the corporation counsel
should be left independent or alone as it is without consoli-
dation. But these three- significant branches be under the
direct supervision or responsibilities of a managing director.
On the right hand ..side the deputy managing
director would be responsible for two departments. Under the
department of public service, police, fire, safety, mass transit
and civil defense. Whereas, under the departmentof public
affairs , personnel , liquor, Hawaii redevelopment, housing and
community developrrmnt, manpower resources, office of aging and
the band.
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•
•
•
We felt that what we were trying to do was to
group them together as much as possible and to provide stronger ,
responsibility and effectiveness within the beads of the
departments. You will notice that we have eliminated a number
of commissions. We have blended the commissions together. We
feel that the experience of the past decade under the charter
might lend itself to consideration into this type of consoli-
dation and effect streamlining of our administrative function.
The managing director should also be approved
by the County{Council. Ict, is nb:tr3so provided in the present
charter and has Bill had said a few moments ago that we have
suggested that you consider the approval of all of the other
department heads by the County Council, the managing director
_should also be approved by the County Council . As you know,
our first Mayor left office before completion of one of his •
terms and- the managing director succeeded him who was not
approved by the County Council and we feel that the managing .
director should be also included in this county approval. •
We suggest that you considersthe 2 elimination
• or deletion@of the' following commissions 'because of either
consolidationbeing embraced within certain operating. depart-
ments or simply being inactive.
The salary -commission which is on page 3 of
the- County Charter; the civil service- commission which is on
page 16'; the police commission which is on page 16 ; the liquor
commission which. is on page 17 ; the .water commission is page
18. Those retained would be the:, ,planning commission and we
would suggest that a personnel commission embrace civil service,
salary, pension and put them altogether. That iibg 'ld probably
produce greater efficiency rather than separate commissions.
One other suggestion for your consideration
• . would be that of abolishing the planning board of appeals. In
view of the past experiences that they have had , most of the
instances, - by far, have been simply ' u:piholding the actions of
the planning commission. This does not take away from anyone
• -the right - to go to the County Council or toco;urts for final
action.
•
I think that is all , Bill , on that one subject.
•
• MR. MOSS: Thank you. Now there is one really
very important thing that I 'd like to discuss with you and that
is the election of the County Council . I don ' t really know
anybody who is thoroughly happy with the way the County Council
is elected.
• - - We have pla red with a lot of ideas. We are
1sure of one thing. That the at-large method of voting today
is wrong. In -the last' election;.'_on an average, 78% of the
winning candidates' margin came from the4. :tricts other than the
one from which they were running. This we feel is completely
wrong. That people should represent the districts that they
are coming from. When 78% of their winning margin comes from
outside tb'eir home district somebody else is electing the
councilmembers_, not their own people.
•
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It is a. difficult problem with the one man,
one vote concept to divide up the county in such a way that
you can be reasonably even in the number of people per
councilmember. Having played with a lot of ideas , we finally
{said, based on the representative districts , the state rep-
resentative districts today, the four districts , we would like
to keep nine members on the council and the magic to nine mem-
bers on the council is we have been told by students of
political governments, that at county level about 10,000
people per representative is a good ball park number. We don ' t
have quite 90,000 in the county now but we have more than
70, 000. So allowing for a little growth it looks to me like
nine members is a good number to try to keep. Besides which,
that is the number we have on the present County Council so
you are not shac,ing up the apple cart too much.
To get these nine people we think you should
elect two from District 1 , which is Ka' u, Puna and the south
part of South Hilo; three from District 2, which is all the
rest of. South Hilo including all of the city; two from Distr =act
3, which has North Hilo., Hamakua and North Kohala and two from
District 4, which is. South Kohala, North and South Kona.
There: is considerable -controvers. y as to what
the population particularly of West Hawaii is today. The Kona
Chamber of Commerce thinks that there are, based on some
statistical , research, there are, much more likely, in the
neighborhood. of 25 , 000 people in Kona today rather than, the
official figure of about 12, 000.
I know that you have to base your represen-
tatives based on official figures. You can ' t takeunofficial
estimates. So to try to get around that problem, I looked at
?G' the number of registered voters in the various districts and
if the allocation that we haves•as that you would have a--
that the District 3 , which is the North Hilo, Hamakua, North
Kohala would actually not be entitled to two representatives.
The spread between the District 3 which is the lowest number
of voters per representative, which would be about 3,500. The
highest representative district would be District 2, Hilo which
would have one representative for about every 5 , 300 voters.
There is a spread there of. one-to-one-and-a-
half. In other words, the high number of voters per repre-
sentatives is one-and-a-half times the low number.
You say, maybe this isn ' t very good as far as
one man , one vote is concerned but the state representatives
have almost exactly that same ratio of high to low where you
have the five representatives in the 4 districts in the State
House. representing the county. So that is , to me, the obvious
wayof electing the County Council
There is one other thing that has to be said
here though. I think very definitely you should put in the
charter, provision for automatic redistricting at a given time.
I don ' t know what form this takes but it is pretty obvious that
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the population balance i)s going to shift in this county over
the next 10 years before the next charter revision and there
should be some provision for automatic redisdt-ricting. The
only suggestion that:. I can ma=ltie : to you, at themoment, is to
take a look at the State Constitution which I believe already
has provision for redistricting the House of Representatives
and the State Senate. We could base the county, somewhat, on
the list there.
Well , gentlemen , that is all I have to say.
We' ll be. glad to try to answer any questions you have. Again,
I 'd like to say we greatly apprectate the opportunity of
coming over here and talking to you face to face because in
writing letters you don ' t really have the feedback as to how
your ideas are being received and I 'm very glad we came over
today.
MR. SCHUTTE: Mr. Moss , you recommended doing
away with some commissions. I didn ' t quite get all of that.
Which commissions did you recommend doing away with?"
MR. MOSS: Frank. . .?
MR. ZUZAX:J We had suggested the consideration
of consolidating a number of the commissions and the salary
commission which is on page 3 of. the County Charter; the civil
service commission which is on page 16 ; the police commission
and the reason that we eliminated the police commission if
you notice on the organizational chart, the pped.iee has been in-
corporated in the department of public service; the liquor which
is on page 17 of the County Charter and again looking at your
chart under the department of public affairs , you' ll notice
personnel. .the second one is liquor, so that is where your
liquor control would be. Your water commission is under the
department of public works , water, parks and recreation . Now
the personnel commission would embody or include the salary,
the civil serviceand pension which is not within the charter
but is one of the commissions that we currently have. By putting
them altogether under one personnel commission it consolidates
that. So we are eliminatWng a number of them.
MR. MOSS: Frank , isn ' t it right that what .
we are really saying is that there should be only three comm-
issions left. The board of ethics ; the combined civil service,
salary and pension board and the planning commission..
MR. ZUZJ : 3) Right. Those are the only ones
that we suggest you consider retaining.
MR. ISHIDA: On. this topic is of commissions.
..r� p
Mr. Zuza 71 what is the rationale for doing away with the police
commission? As I see it, bane of the committee ' s recommendations
is that you would like to somewhat curtail the Mayor' s powers.
Don ' t you think that by e 1 minating the police commission , you
are, in fact, increasing the Mayor ' s powers?
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MR. ZUZAN-: We don ' t really feel that it
increases it because the police commission elects the person
in charge of the functions of the police withinthecounty.
It doe's seem, however, that it is somewhat of an operation
outside of the jurisdiction of the administration and we
feel that by bringing it back to the position of within the
administration and tying it with the other services that we
would provide better efficiency as well as better protection.
MR. ISHIDA: I can understand the efficiency
part. If I understand the rationale of the prior Charter
Commission, one of the reasons why the police commission was
created was if at all possible to get away from politics as
far as the police is concerned. I think they were somewhat
apprehend e as to putting all of the law enforcement body
strictly under the power of the Mayor. Do you see any problem
in this?
MR. ZUZA`K: / Yes , we understand that that was
the case back in 1967, ' 68 when they were drafting the ordi-
nance, rather the charter. Possibly there are many differ-
ences that have occurred in the past decade that have changed
the circumstances that existed prior to the adoption of the
County Charter.
MR. ISHIDA: Would you be even more specific?
MR. ZUZA..K: / From what we understood in the
past that there was a great concern about placement of the
authority in the hands of one individual and that is why they
created the various commissions and they felt thatby creating
the commissions they were enabledto obtain the approval of
the public by which the charter was adopted . That it was a
form of checks and balances that they needed at the time that
the Charter Commission recommended the charter which was
finally adopted. They had submitted two, previously, that
had not been carried by the populous. The third one did,
fortunately, pass . And that isthe charter we are talking
about. That was one of the very significant factors that
they considered were the various commissions. It is the
feeling that the circumstances that existed in those days do
not necessarily exist today.
MR. ISHIDA: Mr. Zuzalc_ ; do I understand you
to 'say that as far as your committee is concerned you don ' t
see any problems(;)1;orAheDIMayon.6oWerextending himself as far
as having sole control as far as the operation of the police
department is concerned?
PMR. ZUZ1K � s. Wedon ' t feel so if you
strengthen the administration and possibly consider a form
of responsibility as we have indicated here. We feel that
it can work effectively and we would like to submit ?it and
suggest it to you for your consideration. ..
MR. ISHIDA: I 'm trying to weigh in my mind
the pro and cons and that is why I 'm trying to delve into it
a little more What about ' the , liquor commission. What is
the rationale for eliminating the liquor commission?
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MR. ZUZAtt: -1VAWe feel that if it is within,
for example, the department-of public affairs that the
liquor control can be effects ver asc_ ell within the department
as it could by commission.
MR. ISHIDA: If that be the case, under the
present procedure, then the Mayor would essentially have the
authority to grant or deny anypplication for a liquor
license. Would that be one of the powers you would want the
Mayor tip, have?
MR. ZUZAK ) Unless you feel that it should
be something similar to zoning and that t4herefore you might
wish to giva6it some legal prerogatives of appeal or court
action.
MR. ISHIDA: No, I believe that the Charter
Commission had that rationale in mind. That the liquor
licenses were such an item that it could be led to abuse so
I think this is why they created a commission of this type
of organization as far as the granting and denial of liquor
Licenses. I guess they felt that as far as they were con-
cerned that liquor was more like a regulatory type of business.
If we do eliminate the commission as you recommend, how would
you propose that the regulation of all these liquorlaw<s'a3b'e(Y
implemented?
MR. MOSS: May I say one thing here, Mr. Ishida?
It seems to me the outgoing head of the liquor commission
recently recommended that the liquor commission be abolished.
Because, he said , that the staff did all the work and they
merely rubber stamped what the staff had done anyway. That there
wasp.not really _any( need to have the commission. I think this
has a `great deal of influence on our thinking.
MR. ISHIDA: This would be your rationale
for eliminating the liquor commission?
MR. ZUZAK: We think it can be done 'without
the commission form.
MR. SCHUTTE: Getting back to these comm-
issions , I 'don ' t find myself clearly aware of what you are
proposing. Just looking at your organizational chart and
doing away with these other commissions or combining these
various commissions under separate departments such as the
department of public affairs which would handle the personnel ,
liquor, the Hawaii redevelopment, etc. , etc. And then the
department of public service which would take care of the police,
fire, safety, mass transit, etc.
Are you saying, then, in presenting this
organizational chart , are you suggesting that in combining
these commissions under these various departments that we
eliminate the commissions and the other department heads under
the Mayor?
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MR. ZUZA3 Yes. Those commissions that
we refer to. there- of being deleted-as we .referred to a moment .
ago for example, the planning commission, would relate to the
planning department and that would be one retained. The same
as your board of ethics would be retained. The same as your
personnel _commission may want to include the items of civil
service, salary, and pension. And yet, as you notice, under
the department of public affairs •one of the areas is personnel .
So that you may wish to retain a commission that pertains to •
personnel for those three reasons. .
MR. SCHUTTE: You are not necessarily saying
then that these other commissions be abolished and that they
be , contained now under these various departmenta that you are
. suggesting.
MR,_ ZUZAK- J Well , in many instances , for
example, the water commission, the liquor commission, the
police commission and so forth, yes, that they be placed under
departmental heads.
MR. SCHUTTE: ,Directly under the Mayor?
MR. ZUZAK:2Y In effect, the department ' s head
would be under the responsibility of the Mayor by the steps of
the organizational chart and we feel that you shoula consider
. that.
. • MR.� SCHUTTE; With this in mind, just looking
at this chart;- I look at it 'as , being an. exceptionally . st,rong
mayor type of government. From what I can gather what is
happening here is . th.at. you are consolidating a number of these
• . . departments that• are 'presently operating under commissions
that I think have more public input into them. Then combining
tiem under department heads that would be appointed by the
Mayor. Aren ' t you giving the. Mayor a considerable amount of
power in this respect? '. . -
MR. ZUZAK:._ Have you seen the current chart?
This one 'you see shows everything in the chart breakdown under-
neath the managing director--the deputy managing director and
in turn under the managing director and in turn under the Mayor.
• So that what we have done is to take this whole grouping of '
various little departments , or little segments ofbureauc'rac1.
and try to streamline, to put them together under departments
of headings with more strength.
MR. SCHUTTE : `A r,e=gyougsuggeskt ung :that we do
away with the commissions of these various departments?
MR. ZUZAK,L 1 We are suggesting that you con- .
sider doing away with the commissions and 'put them under the
departments.
MR. SCHUTTE : And my question to that is, are
we not, by elckminating the commissions, giving the Mayor a
stronger position? I look at the commissions as being kind
- 12 - -
of•,,aybalancnt point between the Mayor and these others. I
can understand you putting these departments together. To
consolidate the operation of the administration of it but. . .
MR. ZUZA Kmy. Well , you see, they are now
under the Mayor.
MR. SCHUTTE : That ' s right.
MR. ZUZA.K_: 5 So we haven ' t removed them from
/the Mayor.
MR. SCHUTTE: You haven ' t removed the532depart-
ment from under the Mayor but what I am saying is this that if
you are removing the commission from that particular department
. . .the commission is usually looked at. . .it doesn ' t go ahead
and rubber stamp. . .I would beg to differ with you on the
suggestion that was made earlier about the liquor commission
just rubber stamping what staff has said. I don ' t think it
was meant in that manner. I believe what came out at that
particular time was that was that. . .the question was® . .I believe
I asked the question of the executive secretary how he could
work with this. And he felt that the commissionwasn ' t
necessary because he was meeting once a month to oversee
matters and that he was in more in contact with the Mayor on
a darilybasj;s� �f I. ,think that is true of any department head
What I am getting is that if you look at a
comfli ssion, it doesn ' t necessarily rubber stamp the desires of
the Mayor. Theyi continuously change things around and move
their own particular way. It ' s' just' a balance that I think is
necessary.
MR. ZUZAK: J But most of the function is that
of election of the person to head that departments police,
water, liquor. That ,is the basic function of the commission
and the Mayor has no-�•; authority.. or) charge over •thy&1 in the
approval or removal of that person-except recommendation , as
we understand. This would , in effect , go beyond that to the
extent that the person who was placed in charge of the depart-
ment vesponsP1e?1`for those thsang'sl`would be approved by the
County Council . At the present time, they are not approved
by the County Council and this is what we are trying to do
with respect to creating a measure of control .
MR. SCHUTTE: Are you suggesting that we
combine the legislative and the administrative portion of this?
MR. . ZUZA.Ko •:- No, sir, what I 'm saying is that
they approve. The County Council approves the department head.
:At the present moment, , the County Coiincil approves only two
department heads® One is the department of planning and the
other is the corporation counsel. The department of public
• works ; the department of parks and recreation ; the department
of finance and so forth are appointed by the Mayor and can be
replaced by the Mayor; the council never has a voice in it.
- 13 -
The same thing is true in the managing
director. The managing director, as they say, is a breath
away from being the mayor. He at least should be approved
by the County Council. These are the things we are talking
about that should be approved by the County Council. The
water commission , for example, elects the head of the water
commission. It is not even appointed by the Mayor, nor is
it approved by the County Council . Under this system, there
would be the control by the department head , the department
head would be then in turn approved by the County Council .
MR. MOSS : I think we are also missing one
point here. That the policy presently set by commissions
would be set by the County Council through ordinance,-policies.
The administration of the departments would be the Mayors
responsibility through his department heads and again you have
given the council the right to accept or reject those depart-
ment heads. So you are really strengthening the County Council
here rather than weakening it.
MR. SCHUTTE : That ' s very true. Maybe we
should think back a little bit now. Is this actually what we
are looking-for? Talk about the strength of the County Council
being able to change, or make decisions by ordinance. We are
looking at a check and balance situation. What happens when
you have an overbalance in a County Council which could Very
well exist and things just went the opposite? And yet these
things that we are, creating here today could be changed by
ordinance, in that respect. Which would not necessarily be
to the liking of the general public. But what happens then?
Where is our check and balance in that particular situation?
If we are to do that? If you had 'a majority in the-e,counc+lyltr
that, wash In power,-'that particular time you'd never get anything
done. You 'd never get anything moved. They could set a
precedent or an ordinance that would be detrimental to the
general public in any specific situation. You would have no
control over it until you changed that majority. I 'm just
bringing this up since you mentioned that.
What I am saying is that if we can do away
with certain specifics and have a check and balance situation
and not rely on any one given party, I think we are in a better
position.?c» You don ' t want to give the dominant role to any�xQti :
party. You want to have a voice in this county is the way''
I understand it. . You don ' t want to be dominated by the Mayor
who dictates policy. You don ' t want to be dominated by a
council that, through a majority, can walk away with everything.
That is my feeling about it.
MRS. KOBAYASHI : Mr. Moss , just some general
questions. How large is . the West Hawaii Committee?
MR. MOSS: We have 14 members , at the present
time.
MRS. KO'BAYASHI : When you started work on the
charter, did you use, especially in creating this organizational
chart , as guides other counties other states? Or how did you
arrive at this particular setup?
- 14 -
MR. MOSS: Frank is the basic author of this
and I ' ll let :him answer that question.
MR. ZUZAK: ": First of all , we had the current
organizational chart as a guideline of what is presently being
done. We took the County Charter with the organizational
chart and we tried to evaluate all of the various departments ..
and commissions, the overlapping, the possibilities of im-
proving the effectiveness and the efficiency of the adminis-
tration . I think it is an open secret that we need to do
something to improve the efficiency of our -bureaucratic ope_ra-j
tion. That is primarily what we were endeavoring, to do to
provide something for you to consider as to one way that this
might be done. .
MRS. KOBAYASHI : Did you talk to anybody in
!county government in preparing this?
MR. ZUZA K `: We talked to quite a number of
people. We have invited people to come visit with us the same
as you have invited us to come visit with you. , They have been
County Councilmen , they have been people from thetbta eauc'racy9a
theyhave -been people fromthe outside. So, wethave tried to.
do as fine a job as we can in talking with a number of people
before making suggestions for your .consideration.
MRS. KOBAYASHI : It seems like your group has
done a lot of homework. We appreciate that. It ' s just that
when I heard that you only had 14 members; .I wondered do you
then speak for or are you affiliated with other groups.?
MR. ZUZAK: We are associated or affiliated--
we work with many people within this organization that are
members of other organizations. There are members in our
group that are members of the Chamber of Commerce. There are
members of various civic organizations ; fraternal organizations ;
trade organizations ; and so forth , throughout the area.
This group is , you might say, primarily a
study group that analyzes things in depth. Similar to thinking
or think tank as you have heard of. Or study groups and so
forth. We do an awful lot of that type of work because of the
group ' s composition.
MRS. KOBAYASHI : These 14 members have been
together for about 10 years more or less?
MR. ZUZAK: j Yes. We& have been together ifjPr'<<'
qui teome time.
MRS. KOBAYASHI : What other kinds of things
have you stud*'d,, ;
MR. ZUZAK_: One of the efforts has been
towards hospitals. We feel that hospitals should be given the
consideration of private operation rather than. by government
operation. We feel a great deal of cefficeiency'_can
- 15 -
•
•
•
•
accomplished . as well as service ,to the people. That is :one of
many that we :have. tackled.
•
. MRS. KOBAYASHI : . One last question. On that
reapportionment in , your. letter. you talked about the voter
registration and then you. have .a .perceage of voters. When
I added the 11%, 122%, 82% and 11%, I only get 41%.
MRm
MU7S,SFZ3I realli zeg(tha`t6S confusing® Let
me clarify it a little bit. Each representative in District 1
would represent 11% of the voters of the county. In other
. words, there are 22% of the registered voters in District 1 .
Two times the 11%. District 2 , the City of Hilo, would have
three' .represented. Each of which would represent 121/2%. So
, Hilo gets 372% of the voters. District 2 has 372% of the
voters in the county. District 3 would be two times the 82%,
17% and District 4 would be two times . the 11%, 22%. Now I
think that adds us to 99% which. is as close as you can come
rounding things off. If you want to put those in per
. registered voter, I can give you the figures rather than
percentage. District 1 would have a representative for every
4, 602 registered voters es of the 1978 election. District 2 •
would have a representative for every 5 , 300 registered voters.
District .3 would have a representative for every 3 ,5c31 -and
. District 4 would have a representative for every 4,834®
MRS. KOBAYASHI : And you did away with any
at-large councilmen based on. .
MR. MOSS: Yes. Any at-large councilmen , it
• seems to me, just control the balance of power on the County
Council and they do not reflect the feelings of the various
districts.
•
One thing I 'd like to point out. Whoever •
divided up the districts.. . The four representative districts.
-1 dhink did a very excellent job of getting a comn'oriality of
interests in each one of those districts. For instance, if.
you look at nis:trict 1 which is Ka'u, Puna and the south part .
of Hilo, you find you are talking sugar, diversified agri-
culture, in general. They have that common interest through-
- out. District 2 is the rest of South Hilo and. you have mostly
the city, itself, and it is the shipping point ; the focal
. point certainly for the sugar industry and for general commerce
. on the island. District 3 where you have North Hilo, Hamakua
and North Kohala, you again have sugar as the common interest
plus diversified agriculture. And in District 4, South Kohala,
' North and South Kona you have basically ranching; you have
the tourist industry. You have the common interests, they are
all different. Each one of the districts has a different
interest in general but they are all pretty much common to the, .
various districts that make up that representative district.
MRS. KOBAYASHI : How would you go about
chosing a. chairman- then in this one?
• MR.. MOSS: : As. it is done today, the council
.picks its own chairman, .
•
•
- 16 -
MR. SCHUTTE : Mr. Zuza':k , and gentlemen. I hope
you don ' t misinterpret my questioning of this. To date, you are
probably the only gentlemen who have come forth with something
basic in writing and have made these types of suggestions to us®
Believe me, we appreciate this because it makes us think. We
have to fire these questions at you because if we don ' t, we won ' t
understand it. And by all means , it is not because it is a per-
sonality situation. It is not that at all . It is strictly, we
want to know what you are thinking. We have our own things to
look at here but we have to know. what you are thinking. We go
down this line here and although something may look a little i
strange, it may make sense. But how do we go about all this
bureaucraticredtape to accomplishthis end and still have a
check and balance on all sides? This is something that I hope
you will understand that we have to look to and appreciate our
questioning to you and give us whatever information you may have,
whatever it may be. Because we need this . We certainly need it.
I appreciate it and I 'm quite sure my colleagues here do apprec-
iate your presentation and your being here today to give us this
information .
MR. ZUZAK:4 Thank you. That is exactly what we
were very much concerned with. The check and balances.
MR. MOSS: Thank you, Mr. Schutte. We appreciate
what you have just said very much. We would also like to mention
that there are more detailed changes. Fairly small things in a
number of places in the charter. We didn ' t want to bring them up
particularly this afternoon but we would like to reserve the right
to bombard you with at least one more letter as to our feelings
on some other changes that are necessary in the charter if we may.
And if there is any question. If there is any help we can give
you. If you would like any research done that is within our
expertise, we would be very, very glad to help you out.
MR. SCHUTTE: Well , you know, in the past, it
is very easy for an individual or an organization to come forward
and suggest questions . Or suggest changes. Without havAng_ the
answers to go along with them. It is hard, then , because we -rave '
to look at all angles and we don ' t have these. But when you come
with a situation and you can make a suggestion to this situation_
orF=;1 how it can be accomplished then it gives us a little broader
field by which we can look at these things with a little broader
viewpoint. So we can appreciate anything that you have that you
think you want to come forward with and you want to send to us.
When we start to work on this thing, here, and our secretary has
been very busy this past week indexing all of our communications
so that as we start to get ibto this we can go back over all
testimony and all information that we have and really give it a
good shot. We don ' t want to go halfway about it, we want to do
the best we can because, believe me, we have to live with this
for the next 10 years as well as everybody else. So we want to
do the best job that we can do.
- 17
MR. CADINHA: I have a question of Mr. Moss.
I understand fiscal responsibility and appreciate it and I have
one concern about spending limits , tax limits.
Is the intent of your recommendations to
discriminate against somebodyimmigrating into the county?
MR. MOSS: No, I don ' t think we are trying to
discourage anybody to that extent. As I explained, I think I 'm
really trying to protect people who have their property now from
being squeezed outof it by steadily rising taxes.
MR. CADINHA: Someone coming in though and
buying property would havea different tax base as far as real
property and would pay more in taxes for a like dwelling or a
like environment.
MR. MOSS: This is true. -
MR. CADINHA: Also, how, _wi,thi a tax limit and a
spending limit, insofar as debt service and budget. . ®;h'ow would
you handle a decline in valuation? I know very few people con-
sider this but it has happened in our country before. Should
real property decline and you have a tax limit of 1% and you
have a county budget that is also limited by debt service limit-
ations. Okay, if you have a decline in value, what happens?
You suddenly have a county that is in a deficit position.
MR. MOSS: You soften that problem to a certain
extent by basing it on a three year running average Which smooths
out the. big ups and the downs. A decline in any one year isn ' t
going to trigger a problem. I 'm quite sure that was the way
the con-con amendment read and is now part of the Constitution.
That is was based on a three year running average of the growth
of the economy, limiting the growth of the budget. Also there
was a provision , I believe, that a two-thirds vote of the
legislature could temporarily set aside the limit. I always
hate to get into that kind of a situation but maybe you have to
do that to cope with the situationjust described.
MR. CADINHA: Once something is committed to
charter it ' s almost biblical in na:rure and it is a. lot easier to
accomplish via ordinance than have to circumvent a charter.+ rn0
These are concerns and .I . was just curious to know how these
provisions would handle the different. . . '
MR.. .MOSS.: . Incidentally, I read in the paper
the other daya very interesting comment on the effect of the
Constitutional -amendments on the spending of the State Legislature.
Apparently, the debt limitation has caused a considerable decrease
in the so-called pork barrel appropriations and requests because
they. can ' t--in the past, people appropriated lots of money but
it was never spent, never released and now you can ' t do that
because any time you appropriate themoney you have to show where
it is coming from and how you are going to borrow it and what it
does to your debt limit. And apparently it is having a beneficial
effect in the State.
- 18 -
MR. CADINHA: So then your recommendation would
be then to caveat any spending limits or real property tax limits
with the council having the authority to ignore or disregard
limits if the situation is such. Is that correct?
MR. MOSS: I don ' t know whether you'd put it
on all three of those. You ' ll notice we went at this three ways.
We said the general fund shouldn ' t rise any faster than the
economy. And number two, we tried to put a limit on the debt
limit but not a fixed limit. We didn ' t say $40 million.. You
know, the national government has a debt limit in a certain
number of millions , or billions , or trillions of dollars. I don ' t
know what it is but about every 4 years, or every 2 years , Congress
has to pass a law that changes that debt limit because it isn' t
sliding. . .It isn ' t sliding. You' ll notice all of these have been
made contingent on a sliding scale.0 As the economy grows , the
general fund budget can grow and the debt limit can grow. But
they can ' t grow skyhigh in any one time. This is what we are
trying to do. Now, those two possibly you put in a two-thirds
vote of the council and you can hold it up temporarily, in case
of an emergency or something. But the property tax is something
else again. It seems to me that is the thing that should be
pretty well nailed down. And, incidentally, the last time the
Council Chairman, Mr. Yamashiro, was over . to Kona to talk to us
he mentioned that in this business of the county ' s taking over
the real property assessment, that they were thinking very
seriously of, just this kind of approach. Now, I don' t know
whether it belongs .there or it belongs in the charter. Person-
ally, I think it belongs in the charter but maybe your State
Constitution will override the County Charter and maybe he is
right , maybe it should be this inter-county agreement of how
they are going to tax real property. Right now, I 'd like to
see it in the charter, myself.
MR. CADINHA: They are all interrelated though.
The county budget is directly related to therpmount of tax
revenues that we have. If you have ceilings on one it ultimately
affects the other.. .If you are starting with the taxation
picture. And I agree in concept that if my family had been on
a piece of property and I was third generation and some sheik ;
flew in from the middle east and paid ten tenfOlat,if6rtiWproperty
next door that my taxes would be based on what he paid for the
land , that ' s not fair. I understand that. My concern, though, is
that there is too much discrimination against the newcomers ,
potentially, and then if we do not have an increase in value and
we have an economically depressing state such as in the ' 30 ' s
or something. Maybe not that bad , but you could have prert+tyvr
wide swings in some of these values from the property rates ,
today. If you've got ceilings on it you could find yourself in
aP trying roblem. I 'm tr in to reconcile these things in my mind also.
MR. MOSS: In the County Handbook there is a
pretty good rundowno the increase in assessed value of property
in the county. It h'as been rising right along pretty steadily.
I agree with you, you may see the ' 30 ' s again sometime but it
certainly doesn ' t look it: from past history.
As I said, all of these limits that we proposed; : .
we tried to make it so that we didn 't cause any drastic changes -
- 19 -
in the fiscal setup of the county. But we did try to hold it
down and contain this much more rapid growth of expenditure
and debt than the growth of the population.
MR. CADINHA: . You stated some facts,
initially, about the percentage increase in budget and the
fixed charges, etc. Would you just happen to have the
statistics on what our revenues looked like over the last 10
years? With the tax revenue increase? Would you have that
handy? If you have it handy, fine.
MR. MOSS: Basically, of course, I think, you
could say the government spent not only everything they took
in but considerably more. Starting in 1968 the total operating
revenue of the county was $11 and a half million ; in ' 69 , it
was $13 million.; $14 and a quarter; $17; $18 and a half; $23 ;
in 1974 now, we are up to 1974, we are up to $23 . 7 million ;
' 75 , $27.11.; ' 36, $32.8 and ' 77, $37. 1 and if I remember 1978
was around $38-$39 million.
MR. CADINHA: Up four times.
MR. MOSS: If you correct those for inflation
it doesn ' t look like quite such a rapid rise. As I said , the
population increase, what was it20%2 The population increase
27%-which is a solid number. The employees went up 65%. The
operating expenses went up 100% even corrected for the rate of
inflation. The debt service went up 120%. Actually, the debt
went up by a factor of 4. It went from $10 million to $40
million .
MR. CADINHA: One last question. I notice you
gentlemen did not include the recallprovision in your recom-
mendations.
MR. MOSS: I 'm sorry.- I forgot that, com-
pletely.
MR. CADINHA: Did you want it? I was wondering
why ,you left it out.
MR. MOSS: Oh, yes , we think that the restric-
tions on recall , I mean on initiative and referendum, should be
removed so that if the. . .I dont think it has ever been used. in
this county--but 'trr4' the final recourse of the voters. If
theyare upset about financial matters they should be able to
take it to initiative and referendum, I think.
MR. CADINHA: And how about removing officials?
How about removing elected governmental officials through recall?
MR. MOSS: That isn ' t in the charter at the
moment and I don ' t think we have really considered it. I can ' t
give you an answer on that at the moment.
MR. CADINHA: Thank you, very much.
- 20
MR. TRULSON: Mr. Moss. I have two questions.
I was just going over your figures regarding redistricting and
composition of the council and I can only think back. at what
has happened. I can ' t look into the future. But, based on the
representation by district: that you9:have set up, I would see a
lot of 6-3 voting, and I notice you have done 'away with the
at-large. Isn ' t the at-large councilmember there to do away
with localized ideas so that if you get' up an issue it will not
be localized if you have the at-large councilmembers to sort of
offset that? There again I kind of look at that as kind of a
check and balance type of thing. If you look at. the makeup
the way it is--District 2 is always--to be realistic about it--
you get 371/2% of the voters in District 2 and you are going to
have 3 councilmen. All the outlying district has 6 more. To
me, I look at and see a lot of 6-3 voting. I hope I would be
wrong but I see that sort of setuppW, Did you consider that at
all when you were developing this plan?
MR. ZUZA,K We 've never had that come. °up yet,
as a matter of fact. In all of our discussions, that is the
first time that has been brought up. That there would be a
possibility. It doesn ' t seem that it would be very much
different than it would be today.
MR. MOSS: Your at-large people all come from
that district.
MR. ZUZAK: . The requirement is that they have
a home district. Now the districts we are talking about, as
you know, are not these districts. This is a representationship
district where the other is a, geographical district. They must
have a home district and that is the only difference.
MR. TRULSON: We have had some other parities
here ,f0.6 redistricting and they put them into legislative
districts.
MR. ZUZAK` : That ' s what these are, sir.
MR. TRULSON: But they have also retained the
at-large. Some have said two; some have said four.
One other question. It was in your letter of
February 25 butyou didn ' t mention it in your presentation
today and that is the staggered elections. I 'd like a little
more input on that if you please.
MR. MOSS: We feel that a staggered election
basis would provide a continuity within the council so that you
don ' t have a completely green bunch of- that has to organize
themselves. That have to ,earn- rlgtit from word one. AllZbhe
timeyouwould have some people who have been there for at least
2 years and learn the ropes. I 'm not going to say the stag-
gered election is a big thing- that I wpuld say we've got to have
it, absolutely. But I think it would be a very nice thing and
also it would tend to make people more aware of their govern-
ment if every 2 years they elected one of their representatives
- 21
on the CountyCouncil. They would be more interested in who
he is and what he is going to do, I think. It would make them
more aware of the County Council.
There is one other thing on this, the County
Council. By taking it down to election representative districts
you are going to cut the cost of campaigning tremendously. As
it is now, a man who wants to run from Kona has to spend most of
his time in Hilo because that is where the votes are. The man
in Ka'u is going to have to spend time in Kona and in Hilo, too.
So you are going to do a lot less campaigning,- a lot less
campaigning expense if you do that'. And you are going to open
up the opportunity for more people to run for the County Council ,
it seems to me.
MR. TRULSON: One more question. Perhaps I just
don ' t quite understand it. Part 4 in your letter on restriction
on the use of initiative and referendum.
The charter provides for initiative and refer-
endum with restrictions and you just want to remove all this. . .
MR. MOSS: We just want to take all restrictions
off of it. Anything is fair game.
MR. TRULSON: If you did something like that.
( Aren ' t you kind of opening up a can of worms? Any rsmall group
can get together at any time and just keep bombarding for this.
Don ' t you have to have some restrictions so the things that are
are brought before are reali,y a legitimate type of. . . . .
MR. MOSS: I 've alwas' heard that initiative
and referendum--the use of it--is pretty rare. The only place.
that I have ever heard of it being used tremendously is
California and there, yes, it has been used quite a bit. I 've
never heard of it being used in this county. It was used up
in Kauai just recently and interestingly enough when they took
it to the people, the people voted it down. So I don ' t think
you are going to find it used very often. It seems to me that
it' is the ultimate protection of the voter If he is really
dissatisfied. If enough of them are dissatisfied , they can
get together and do something about it.
MR. TRULSON: So you say to leave initiative
andreferendum in the charter but remove all restrictions. '
MR. MOSS: That ' s right. Correct.
MRS. IWAMOTO: I have a question to ask re-
garding the incorporation of the departments. Take, for example,
the department of public service. If we combine the police, fire,
safety and mass transit and civil defense together this would
mean that we would need a department head_who_is very knowledgable
in all areas. As I see it, right _now, we have, let ' s`Atake, ' for:)
example the -fire ddpr t
ament�9_a person- who has had experience .:.
workng inthe_.f ire_.department, to be„the ead,,_and who is know-
legable and, I think , he is able to run the department effic-
iently as it is right now. I wonder whether we can get someone
- , 22 - . .
who will be able to know how each departmentlikethe police,'
fire andso forth, would be able to work. together.
MR. ZUZAK c, The head of that department is
the administrator. He will have personnel under him qualified
in each one of those areas.
MRS. IWAMOTO: Well , cI> often wonder about the
trust that the employees would have_ for the head. Whether
they would 'feel that personknow, ouu'lknoW- how the- depatment
'-u71-1-1-be-:,- able to run
MR. ZUZAKLL: By the same token , the managing
director or the deputy managing director, or, the Mayor are
not familiar with all the details of operation of the depart-
ment of public works. So, consequently, it is that layer-but
the administrative person we are seeking in that department
should be competent enough. If he is not competent then he
needs to be replaced with a person who has the administrative
capability.
There is one other thing, if you don ' t mind ,
while I am speaking. We should have included in this organi-
zational chart which we had mentioned previously the reference
to a legal counsel representing the County Council.
We, show under the County Council , the council
staff and the council clerk. In Bill Moss ' s earlier remarks ,
there was the recommendation that a: legal counsel represent the
County Council as well as a legal counsel representing the
Mayor., We feel that this should be very seriously considered
by your commission.' ' It has been a problem in the past and
separation of the 'county :counsel might be wise to consider.
MR. SCHUTTE: Mr. Zuzak ' , In regards to this,
what you are saying is that County Council should have their
own legal counsel. Separated from ,,the corporation counsel ' s
office.
MR. ZUZA.K 3 Yes, sir. That is correct. And
we feel that there should be a council staff that represents
the County Council so that it is empowered to make its own _
studies and analyses necessary for legislation . So that ;'it' s
provided for in the charter but we hope that somewhere or
another. the County Council will do something more about it
than they have.
MR. SCHUTTE : According to the charter, it
allows the council the authority to hire whatever staff it
thinks is necessary.
MR. ZUZAK_: It was originally and then it
was removed. We would like to see that it is reinstated.
The current printing does not state that. The original was
in ag reen bound book and it does refer to the councils-
,staff
MR. SCHUTTE: I think if you look under the
portion that has to deal with the county clerk.
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•
•
•
The rule that supports the clerk ' s office does support the
County Council. Section 3-7, Subsection (b) (6) "Appoint
necessary staff for which appropriations have been made by
the council, subject to civil service laws and classifications"
etc. So it is within the realm of the county clerk ' s office
to appoint whatever necessary staff they may `feel is appropriate.
FMR. MOSS: As Mr. Zuza k'asaid, the original
• version of the charter and I 'm sorry I didn ' t bring mine with
me on one of the early pages has a paragraph authorizing the
council to hire whatever staff it :feels is necessary. Now that
is omitted from the 1976 Revised . Edition of The Charter. And
. I haven ' t found anybody who found out why. Whether it got
.left out by mistake or whether there was a revision to the
original charter which removed it. And, as I say, almost un-
animously, the councilmembers whb:have talked to us have com-
plained about their lack of staff and their lack of ability to
really get detailed figures and do the research necessary to
make proper decisions _sometimes.
MR. SCHUTTE: What I am getting at is that
they might have omit%ed that under the councilmen but they
turn around and make the county clerk directly responsible to
the council and the county clerk ' s responsibilities are to •
2}3point necessary staff for which appropriations have been
made by the council from other functions as the council may
prescribe.. . So I am looking at this asibeing that the council ' s
direction . could be to support the clerk ' s office to take care
of the necessary 'staff that they ,would need =ths, informa-
tion.
But _ getting back more fully .to the. legal
counsel side of this , are we .not looking at a situation where
we have the corporation counsel ' s office--now mind you--that
is serving one entity,' .the county government. .. Like state
government - and -the attorney general 's office--you have various
divisions and departments which are serviced legally by a
• deputy attorney general . Still he answers to the a.g. ' s office
of the state. In this case, we have the corporation counsel ' s
office which can delegate duties of their deputies to the
various departments such as the planning department or the •
• County. Council whichever needs legal advice. I would be
inclined to feel that an attorney from the corporation counsel ' s
office would render a legal decision if asked for one. A legal
opinion . He would write . a legal opinion. Not necessarily
leaning to any particular side. There may be some situations
that have existed in the past that through •a shortage of man-
power the corporation counsel ' s office was not able to provide •
the .necessary individuals to help out in checking various legal
things out but what I am saying . is are we not looking at a
position of getting away from that one entity and creating two
distinct powers that could be in litigation continuously as •
the current administration and council is today. If you had
a situation like this and had a legal opinion by a council
. attorney and you are going to get a rebuttal by the corporation .
counsel ' s office in favor of the county and yet you are all
working for one entity. I think that they would do an injustice
to the general public in this sense because it thenibecomes a
•
•
- 24 -
matter ;pf power.. Here you have an attorney that is representing
the council and one that is representing the county and they
both represent one entity. Whereas through the existing pro-
cedure, as it is today, the corporation counsel ' s office with
a sufficient amount of people to do the job could delegate a
deputy to any department as they are doing now. To write a
legal opinion or whatever has to be done. It is unfortunate
that you have the situation that a legal opinion is referred to
asleaning in a particular direction.
MR. ZUZACK: ,.) I think it was not necessarily
directed to the legal battle that seems to have gone on
recently between the County Council and the Mayor--or adminis-
tration--whatever, as much as the fact that if a legal counsel
works primarily in legislative areas that certain things that
a council needs can be performed much quicker than they have
been according to past performance. It takes so long, now,
for ordinances to be prepared by the present corporation counsel.
Where the legal counsel employed by the County Council would be
engaged and involved in that particular assignment for the
county. We feel that that would be a very definite benefit
to them. Now we were not really involved in the two corporation
counsel fighting back and forth , as you point out. That was
really_not our major thinking with respect to recommending ,the _ 5
rli legal=counsel.
MR. . SCHUTTE : Yes , but I. had to bring it up
because this is what would exist. Just take a look at the
situation at hand today and if you had a separate counsel this
county government , I imagine, could be tied up in court quite
a longtime just over one specific. I see no way of taking
and maybe improving the situation , the facilities and the
services of the corporation counsel ' s office and having a
particular deputy aside for any specific department that will
work continuously than we have. I think maybe this would be
a better approach than tryingto split this thing up. I 'm
just afraid of this. .. .
MR. ZUZAKb_ ; May we ask one question with
respect to review. Review as it pertains to ordinances. Review
to laws, commissions, actions of the County Council that should
not go on indefinitely. We have discussed it. We'd like to
throw it out to you and ask you if it has been presented to
you so that at least there would be some means of review in
all of the voluminous number of ordinances that are put on the
books and are not enforced . That have outlived their time.
Certain commissions that are inactive. That they be reviewed
and be eliminated. They either activate it or abolish,,;,it.
Has that been considered? Similar to what is referred to as
the Sunset Law.
MR. CADINHA: The finance director didn ' t
exactly hit this thing head on but he, with respect to approp-
riates that weren ' t used, . . .
MR. ZUZi<: j It would apply to that, too.
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MR. CADINHA: That was his specific recommen-
dation. That after a period- of time if the money was not used
that it be coughed back up and the appropriation be killed .
It is pretty much the same concept but with the specificstoward
money. That is the only other recommendation I can recall.
Currently, as you gentlemen well know, West
Hawaii is without representation with Mr. Kawahara being ill.
Have you given any thought to how;._ and if the charter-' should
provide for the filling of an empty seat either through illness
or something similar?
MR. MOSS : Yes. We have discussed it. It ' s
a pretty touchy subject, I think , and a rather involved one.
How you write a provision into the charter providing for some
automatic replacement or substitute ft$r a disabled couilman.
As I say, it is a little sensitive. You rear,ly wouldn ' t want
to go and say, we have got to replace Bill Kaw`ahara, right now,
when he is kind of having a bad time. He may be back. Has it
really crippled the council , let me ask you the question , has
it really crippled the council while he has been out? I don ' t
think so. I think this is maybe the first or the second time
in the 10 year period that this situation has occur1red. I don ' t
recall any previous instance of this type of a problem.
MR. ZUZA\Kr ; :Frank''DeLuz was out. . . .
MR. TRULSON: I 'd like to add on that. Mr.
Kawahara is not there representing but you do have 3 at-large
councilmen that should also be representing West Hawaii .
MR. CADINHA: I understand that. And person-
alities aside, the situation could be a little more acute ;than
it is now. Weare dealing in theory: you know.
MR. MOSS: If it could be worked out, I think
a provision for a temporary representation may be appointed by
the man Who has to step down temporarily might make a very
good thing. I think it would 'certainly provide more represen-
tation for the district during the period of time.
MR. ZUZ;?AK Y May I supplement and say that
we have also asked two councilmen that same question. Neither
one of them were able to give us an answer. One was the County
Council Chairman and the other was the Vice Chairman.
MR. CADINHA: It is a difficult question . . .
MR. TRULSON: One more question. I 'm kind
of hung up on this initiative and referendum. I 've been trying
to read and listen at the same time and I realize as you have
said before you haven ' t thought too muchabout it.
I 'm looking at Section 11-2. Limitations.
It would appear to me without limitations in the charter that
a possible pay raise to county employees could come under
referendum by the voters. .
- 26
MR. MOSS: SayT hear that again ...please?
MR. TRULS.ON: By reading it the first time
through, it would appear to me that a possible employee salary
raise, for county employees, may come under referendum without
limitations in Article XL. The limitation of powers. . "any
financial matter relating to public works ; any ordinances
making or repealing any appropriation of money or fixing the
salaries of county employees or officers`®'" Section 11-2 limits
the powers of initiat <veand referendum so as not to effect
that type of thing. If you takeaway all your limitations
would it be possible for a referendum on salaries? The poss-
ibility is there. Though the possibility of it ever happening
might be very slim but without your limitations that possibility
is there.
MR. MOSS: I . guess my not very well thought
out answer- wouldbe if the voters- are eventually paying the
salaries of the administration and its employees , then really,
why shouldn ' t theyhave the last word on how much it is?
MR. ' TRULSON: Don ' t misunderstand me. I`'`m
not 'trying to argue with you. I 'm just kind of playing
devil ' s advocate. Okay, then you have the union coming in with
the union contract of the county 'mployees. So the union '
contract is negotiated. All of a sudden the voters come up and
says =no by referendum. .
MR. MOSS: It ' s funny. I 've been on both sides
of the fence. I'-ve been a union member and I 've been a manage-
ment member. I can be reasonably objective, I think , about the
question of unions and salaries and contracts. I sometimes
think , right now, that the hand of the administration of the
council needs to be strengthened a little bit more versus the
union. In the light of the last few years and the growing
unionism of the government employees. I 'm not against it. I
am a firm believer that when you get a large corp.oration , you .
practically have to have a union. In the administration of the
county the government is like a large corporation . I 'm not
against unions but I do think that sometimes the scales tip a
little bit too far one way and ��a` iittl e bit too far the other.
The only way you get back--you never get it exactly in balance.
You always 'are tipped a little one way or the other way.
Right now, I 'd like to see it tipped a little bit more on the
+slide of the people who are paying the salaries .
Again, Icome back to the fact that initiative
and referendum is a last ditch procedure. But it is a club you
can hold over people' s heads and say, now let ' s be reasonable
about this and not go whole hog.
MR. ISHIDA: Mr. Moss, on this district repre-
sentation. Your basis is the voter registration. Has your
committee determined that this would be. a valid base upon which
to determine representation?
- 27 -
MR. MOSS:. I doubt if it would be a legal
method. . I used it to try to get around the problem .of what
is - theoteal population of the various districts of the County
of Hawaii at the present time.
If you look at the distribution of registered
voters versus the officialpopulation of the county, you will
find some very interesting things. That either some of the
representative districh;s,' „people are very good at getting
people to register or elsethe population of that districtis
very much understated. `,Its seemed tome that the number of
registered voters was probably 'as good an indication of what
the real population of those districts was. Now, I may be
wrong, but I 'm not 'sure ' that you could 'make this stand:, up in
court if it were challenged but. . . .
MR. ISHIDA: , I '•don ' t know, myself. I just
wondered if your 'aommittee had made some 'research for deter-
mination on that faceor. -
MR. MOSS: If, you look at theper population
figures for those you get a little bit different situation.
But, again , - I estimated the population of Kona about a year and
a half ago to be 18, 000 at that time. Using the increase in
telephones installed , for one thing. The increase in houses ;t
that were built over there. The building permits. The Chamr
of Commerce has done quite a bit of work over there. I 'm not
familiar with all of what they did. They've been talking a
figure of 25 , 000. ?et . the official population is around
13 , 000 or 14, 000. Now, we have to wait fora couple of years
until the next census comes up but in the meantime you gentlemen
have to make up a charter revision. Now, I don ' t know what kind
of set of :figures you want to ?.use but using the voters registra-
tion seems'`to me. . .those are the people who elect the County
Councilmen and if you can make reasonable numbers out of it. . .
,and I think you can out of the four districts. . .with 3 from Hilo
and 2 from everywhere else. . .that isas good a number to7hang
your hat on as the official population figuresare.
MR. ISHIDA: Another point. On the confirmation
of department heads by the council . I believe inyour recommen-
dation you also indicated that you wantedtithe counii-to:ha'vethe`'
power to remove the department heads.. Is tha-e your committee' s
position yet?
MR. MOSS: Yes , sir. We feel , again , this is
a tool that the council can use in an apparent never ending
battle with the Mayor. This is not just Hawaii County. Look
at Honolulu County for instance., - Anywhere you go, practically,
you will always find a conflict between the legislative body and
the administration. It seems to just be the nature of the beast.
-,
MR. ISHIDA: The -only" thing that I was thinking
about is that if you do . give. the council the powero, remo.val
I see that maybe the department heads might find themselves in
a quandary as to who their master will be. I don ' t know whether
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•
•
•
that would be a feasible thing to do. Do you see any problm
in that?
MR.. MOSS: I was going to say that I have often
thought that sometimes if you run, a little scared you are a more'
efficient person than if you get very complacent. And if you,
have the possibility of the council removing someone that they
think is not efficient maybe he ' ll work a little bit harder.
MR. ISHIDA: Then I see the problem of the
department' head working with the Mayor. You know, the Mayor
has no power of removal so that would be a problem there.
• MR . MOSS: Oh, I think the Mayor--I don ' t
think we meant to take away the Mayor' s power in that regard.
Basically, they should be working for the Mayor. But I think
the council should also have the right to--if they are going
• to confirm them they certainly should be able to withdraw that
confirmation if they want to.
MR. ISHIDA: . This agreement between the Mayor .
and the department head, does the Mayor have the power to remove
the " department head on his own? With the approval of council?
• MR. MOSS : '`,Let 's _qualify that a little bit.
We think the Mayor should :havey-the right of removal regardless
• of the council . But that the council should be able to withdraw
confirmation in effect, and say, we think it is time you got a
new .department head and then:•.^the^Mayor looks around for somebody
else. _
MR. SCHUTTE : Mr. moss . In regards to that
' last statement, I 'm' just sitting here and thinking. . . .I would
think in a position like that that any department head that •
could be subject to removal by the council would be in a terrible •
position. Let me explain my reason for saying this. He may be
appointed by the Mayor to do a job and right now we have situa-
tions where people have s id , I don ' t know who my master is
because I 'm appointed by the Mayor but I answer to a commission.
. So who do I answer to, the Mayor or .the commission? The Mayor
• . hires me. The commission sits on top of me. After you get
involved a little bit more I 'think you' ll find the reason for . •
that little thing that gives the Mayor the final say in that
position.
•
In going back to allowing the council to become
involved 1 ith that , =you> knowe council is going- to be`ratt.acked
from its constituents or_ the,,general public, 'the individuals
`that-the coun'cilmen may-represent. And"I-wourd-imagine a con-
siderable amount of pressure could be applied to a councilman
from ,any particular group and if he had a particular majority
could sit ontop. of: a;y in the -case of a planning director, thea
,liquor�cbfltro_l5people, or,
any departmentswithin the county
governmentThat with this amount of pressure he could be
subjected to-nobody' s job in government would be (a veryrewarding
one or one that an individual.. would tend: to- .do as nuc.h- as possible
for. I think he would be ' inmore .of a chaos than- any other time
. merely because he has this body that through the majority vote
•
- 29 -
coul;d_ throw him out even if he is doing a very good job. I
tYiink , in-the `p-at_, if you were to go over it, you would find
situations that have come up in this respect where individuals
might have been taker out of county employment. Not necessa-
rily because of the quality of work they were doing or the type
of job. But merely'`because of personalities. I would imagine
that this same thing would exist if you were to extend the
Mayor the right to appoint people he feels he can work with,
yet give the council the opportunity of sitting on top of him
and possibly get rid of a department head he had already put
on. The balance is always the purse strings. The Mayor wants
some things done and the council sits on that budget. It is
'the same ft` everything else. So there is a certain amount
of-balance`fhere and I 'm just wondering about giving the
council too much. I think what we are getting involved with
now is . a city-managing type of thing where the council is
responsible for hiring the managing director and dictating to
him what they expect to be done.
I think you summed it all up in your earlier
statement that you felt that this wasn ' t necessarily the
thing that you wanted to seerFhappetb. The better thing would
be to revise maybe or implement that portion of government
that exists today and maybe kind of modify it so that it will
work. I think what we are getting into now is one of those
city=managing director type of things where the council
becomes ultimately involved with the administration of govern-
ment instead of the legislative side of it. As it exists
today, the reason they can ' t get along is because they are
both looking at one another andthey are both trying to ins
fringe on the other ' s powers® That is all it amounts to.,
They have this disagreement. It ' s not a problem. It ' s just
a disagreement. They have agreed to disagree.
MR. - CADINHA: Under your organization, the
water function would fall under the Mayor. Currently, the
department of water supply is a semi-autonomous body. Now,
it has the wherewithal to purchase property,. lease, or what-
ever and also to float water revenue bond`s under the name of
the commission. Now, your debt limitations ;a nddebt_sejvice
limitations that you propose. Have you considered the fact
that the water function in the county would then have to fall
under the Mayor and that any expenditure of the water—dis-
tribution of water to enhance growth is going to have to fall
under that limitation. Have you looked at that , and is this
limitation suffihcient:
MR. MOSS: No, I completely overlooked that®
That point of what the debt,,;of the water board is. I never
thought of it®
MR. ZUZA_K o_ Wouldn ' t the County Council , in
effect, be the one then that would make that determination
and provide for funding for water and its transmissions?
MR. CADINHA: As it stands now, my understanding
is that the water commission. . . let ' s take a hypothetical situ-
ation somewhere out in West Hawaii between Ahaehoomalu and Kailua.
- 30 -
Let ' s say that there is a need to take water out there and it
cost $5 million todo for the sake of developangca
particular piece of property. Right now, that funding would
come from state) and/or the water commission . And the water
department would go out and get revenue bonds if they wanted
to. Or there could be an improvement district bond where) the
developer would pay basically the assessment to do it. Now,
if you put the water function under the county then the Mayor
or the council , but your bondedidebt of the (county government
has to include this.
MR. ZUZAK_: ,r But wouldn ' t the County Council ,
in effect, still be the body that authorized the improvement
district or the expenditure of the funds as it is now? Rather
than the Mayor?
MR. CADINHA: Yes. Ultimately they are going
- to be the authorizing body but what I 'm saying is if you have
j .) a limit placed on the fixed charges of the county. . . .
MR. ZUZAK: Oh, you are referring to the
limitations rather than to the. . .
MR. CADINHA: Yes , I want to know if you have
looked at that and that was sufficient to carry the water
burden? We are an expansive sort of an island `and if we are
going to have to develop some of these rural areas it is going
to take some money. It ' s really an investment. I 'm getting
hung on this thing, but thatFs my own problem. But if you
have a debt ceiling a lot of your capital expenditures on the
county basis can be viewed as an investment. They need not
be for monuments . If you are taking water out to a rural area
and that arearealizes a gain in value, ultimately there is
more revenue coming into the county but until that value is
realized and the developments go in you could prevent growth ;
stifle growth if you will , with a limitation. Especially with
water. Water costs could be an astronomical undertaking over
the next 10 years for the county.:'___
MR. ZUZAK: ; Aren ' t the bonds issued generally
against water revenues?
MR. CADINHA: That ' s right. Water revenue
bonds. That is correct.
MR. ZUZAK: -.' I believe what we are talking
about is not exactly the same thing.
MR. CADINHA: You were talking about general
obligation debt?
MR. ZUZ1;K: We were talking about the rela-
tionship to the property tax.
MR. MOSS: I would think in this particular
case you could say that the water bonds that area protected by
the revenue, don ' t come under this kind of limitation. That;
(` s b t,?tax money. They are paid off by revenue. Not by taxes.
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•
MR. CADINHA: So the debt limitation you are
referring to is just purely general obligation debt?
MR. MOSS: Yes .
MR. CADINHA: Okay, that clarifies it. Thank
you.
CHAIRMAN SAKATA: I 'd just like to ask the
West Hawaii Committee one question. We talk so much about
district representation. We talk about big business and so
on and I have one question in mind. If you want to get
efficient and let ' s say knowledgable people in government or
running for elective office, do you people think that we
should have a campaign spending law? So that somebody who
doesn ' t have money and finances can run for a certain office
from let ' s say, West Hawaii or East Hawaii . Rather than buck
big business and people with a lot of money? Do you thinkwe
should have a campaign spending law in our elective process\
here in the county?
MR. MOSS: I 'm no expert on that subject.
However, I do think , in general , I would favor a campaign
spending law. It is very interesting to me that in the last
state election, there was more money spent reelecting the
governor of this state than was spent reelecting the governor
of the State of California. Now, ' the difference in size and
the job and so forth is very different and it looks to me like
there was a lot of money spent here, out of proportion , really.®;
The results might have been very different if there had been a
campaign spending claw.
MR. SCHUTTE : Mr. Moss. You mentioned some-
thing here about property taxes not to exceed 1% of the fair
market value. One question in .regards to that. In your
dealings, how do you expect to deal with the speculation that
exists today that is actually driving up property values? Idle
speculation?)
I 'm speaking about the individual who can
come in and invest in a piece of property. Agricultural ,land.
And sit on it because he is financially able to do so. :Q-�. he
may represent individuals that are able to do so. Andtultim-
azely drive that particular type of land to exceptional heights
``T value. To the point where it exceeds the fair market value
for anybody wanting to become engaged in agriculture. His
sole intention is to sit on this land until he can get a
variance through, :get a change in zoning or something that he
can turn around and subdivide and cut it `;up. It ' s being done
all over. It ' s being done considerably in Waimea. It has
been done on this island and in this state. What is your
opinion of this sp eculation.' Thsl9 I think , L�,would relate yin. v_
�
essence back to the property tax burden that everybody ist/..„ '
concerned with.
MR. MOSS: I 'm afraid I 'm an amateur when it
comes to property speculation . I 've always bought at the
wrong time. I think Frank Zuzar ;?knows a lot more about real
estate and that kind of thing than I do. Maybe he'd like to
comment. I don ' t think I can answer your question, Mr. Schutte.
- 32 -
MR. ZUZA`K.) Mr. Schutte, let me see by re-
statement, if I properly understand the objective. If a buyer
purchases and owns a piece of property., Intends to keep it
over a long period of time until. it enhances in value far in
excess of his purchase price and then sells. it. Is this the
phase of speculation that you are referring to, that he keeps
the property for twenty, twenty-five years and then proses
to sell it?
MR. SCHUTTE : No. What I am `speaking about
is taking property that is, let ' s say, zoned for agriculture
and he buysit at x number of dollars at a -price that exceeds
what is economically feasible to get involved with agriculture
today. He sits on it with the sole intent in a year or two
that he will ,be able to get azoning change on that particular
parcel. Maybe from an Ag:,-, 5 or an Ag-7, 10 or whatever it is
and cut itup, to Ag,.® 1 and then sell it at a phenomenal cost.
We've had situations. right there in Waimea, or in West Hawaii ,
where par-ce1s:have been,bought andsold and absolutely nothing
done to them,and 'two and three times Within two yearsor
three years and the amount of dollars that ,:have changed hands
is phenomenal. It is ailrmost unbelievable. q-41- I 'm saying is
that this ultimately affects what Mr. Mass was speaking about
earlierof your property taxes.
' ou know, we have situations where, I ' ll give
you a good exampl ', , our local people have had lands handed down
to themover the years. And they might -have come through the
great Mehele or from some awards from the king. And yet
because of this speculation or the enhancement of property
values , `t.heyfind that they can no longer own this parcel and
if they could just stay there they find that they cannot afford
to stay there. So as a result. . .
MR. ZUZAK ;k' By reason of the increase' in the
assessment.
MR. SCHUTTE : That ' s right.
MR. ZUZ1+.K;: a What we are proposing is exactly
what you have directed your observation to. If we limit the
increase of tax to the assessed value, as of let 's say, today.
We can ' t go back for five, twenty years but at least from this
point forward , somebody speculating on adjoining real estate
or in the area cannotdrive you off that agricultural parcel
of ground by reason of their cuttingup the land and selling
it for an astronomical figure.
And this is what is happening today because the
tax structure, the method of assessment is based upon comparison.
That comparison is affected when people from the mainland co 'e
over here with a large number of dollars and buy a piece of 1r
property and then turn around and resell it., or buy other
properties near and continue to drive it up. hose, who live
here are adversely affected and this is what we are trying to
prevent. . .is the`i`r being adversely affected. They have not
changed their use of the property. They have not imposed an
-
additional burden upon the treasury of the county during their
occupancy.. - But ' a person who comes Tn.- after that and does
rezone, then does sell it, that person pays a higher tax because
the tax base is then market value. .
MR. CADINHA: This proposal is not specific
to any particular zoned property? All property? Is that
correct?
MR. ZUZA.K; '. 'It is property tax across the
board. It is not directed toward agricultural lands or residents
or anything of discriminatory na't'ure. Any property taxes. We
feel that there should be (a start somewhere and we"should not
penalize the people who have lived in a home for 30 years or
longer, they are satisfied with it and because someone buys a
home, or buys a site three doors from them and pays fifteen or
twenty times what `their lot next door was worth, they shouldn ' t
be penalized because according to the method of assessment by
reason of the fact. that it is in the area, their value is
higher® Their assessment goes up. Their amount of tax, therefore,
d.S 6-T-go increased. We are trying to say: that should not occur.
When he sells it, the person who buys it then starts at the
market value at that particular time. The assessed value is based
upon a ratio of percentage to market value to the new buyer not
to the existing bitoer.
MR. CADINHA: What would be your comment. A
hypothetical situation. Current landowner, Castle & Cooke, or
some major landholder puts to economic use some industrial
property.. Be it geothermal or be it manganeOe production or
whatever you have. And finds that there is sufficient market.
A foreign corporation , Dow Chemical or somebody wants to come in
next door. The highest and best use of the property next door
would dictate the same sort of an application . He buys the
property at a stepped up basis. The taxes of the two very
similar industrial plants would pay would be very different.
It could very well be the difference between a profit and a loss.
Having nothing to do with management. Is that fair?
MR. ZUZAK,: ) ' The person who comes in takes that
factor into consideration. It is an economic factor.r and if he
does come in he has to be aware of it and be mindful of that
cost in consideration. Otherwise, it is not economically
feasible to him. However, what happens next door does not affect
his use of it. If he decides he wants to build a hotel on it
or if he decides he wants to develop it into a subdivision, he
has studied the economic feasibility of it, of doing just that
with the property and he proceeds. The one next door to it may
want to live on it as a residence or a farm or whatever.
•
MR. CADINHA: Then that , in effect, really
could be to discourage new capital from coming into the state.
MR. ZUZAK.,J. No. It ' s really not intended to,
discourage new capital , at all. The objective is to protect
the people who live here now. Because, you see, our economy in
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•
real estate is created and affected by people caway from Hawaii.
There are not that many sales to people who live in the local
area that increase the costs as much as those that are created
by people elsewhere. They are the ones that have driven real
estate up more than the local people have. All we are trying
to do is to protect the local people. As long as they want to
stay there that they have a greater protection in the ,a•ssgss-
ment. Now, if they sell it, and they buy another home_ someplace
else, they fall into the same category as any new buyer. That ' s
their prerogative. But as long as they want to stay there 'they
have a measure of protection. It does not discourage somebody
from doing anything with the property. It doesn ' t discourage
sale.- It does not discourage a buyer. The buyer looks at the
economic feasibility andif he feels disposed, fine. He goesr
ahead on _his ro ert . _" What the man does next toy iim has'
nothing to do,with ;his sale_Tof that property for subdivision
lots or for condos or hotels';'br whatever, unless he adversely
affects it and as long as it currently zoned he can ' t. adversely
affect a man from developing it.
MR. CADINHA: . We are imposing a different set
of economic facts for foreign capital than we are our own
capital , are we not? •
MR. ZUZA,K: I can ' t see that it is imposing •
it upon foreign. Suppose either you or T wanted to buy_ 10 acres '
next door to a 10 acre farm and the family were living on it.
We decided that we could cut that 10 acres up into 3 lots per
acre and we could get 30 lots out of it. ' We would sell the lots.
If we sold the lots to individuals to build homes on it and
suppose they didn ' t build homes on it, they still paid the
assessment on a subdivided lot but the 10 acre lot next door
that you are living on , I haven ' t adversely affected you and
you haven ' t adversely af.fected .me. You haven ' t received any
moe benefits from the county but you haven ' t deterred me from
making the investment in .div,iding my 10 acres. into subdivided
homesites and selling them. I 'm not deterred from doing that.
So foreign capital could still come in and do the same thing.
The only thing• we have done is to protect you on your 10 acres
and not force you out of your property by reason of what happens
.to the property next door. •
As it is: now, under the present. system of ,
taxation, because the adjoining 10 acres is put to a higher and
better use it does adver's,ely affect your adjoining 10 acres .
• Although your use has not changed.
MR. SCHUTTE : Mr. Zuzakk. .:, Don ' t you feel then
that right now the property tax department gives you a particular
benefit in regards to farming or agriculture us'e® ::` Where you can
dedicate your lands1to a specific use and get the' benefits of
that dedication so that your surrounding improvements dont
necessarily raise 'your property taxes over and above ag uses .
This is one remedy. Another remedy, don ' t you think, is if the
general plan that was made for this particulartic=,county were
adhered to more stringently that it would eliminate this spec-
ulation? Because then if ag lands were purchased they would be
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purchased specifically for agriculture lands with the intent
that 'they could beYrio't used for anything else except agriculture
lands. Today, tomorrow or in the future, or whatever. Until
the general plan for some reason or other would be changed.
Don ' t you think this would enhance the situation a lot "better?
MR. ZUZA,,K'-; No, sir, I 'm afraid that it would
not. Because the value of agricultural land , by experience,
has increased almost' consistently from year to year by reason
of what develops around it. And that is the basis of tax.
The tax is based upon an appraisal and one of the criteria of
appraisal is comparison and , therefore, agriculture sales sold
as agriculture, not sold as zoned property other than agri-
culture would have its effect upon increasing that particular
farm.
MR. SCHUTTE : But you are speaking of zoned
sales. Today the taxes are based on appraised value highest
and best use of the market and a comparable could be taken--
it doesnot necessarily have to be taken within the immediate
vicinity in order to establish a tax rate. You can take a
parcel in Kona and take a similar parcel in Ka' u or a similar
parcel here in Keaukaha that could be a comparable and the
same situation could be taken into consideration. Also, Cif__a
particular tax purchase is made in any particular area ,the tax
department does not use that as a basis of establishing tax
today, knowing fairly well that this may just be a spot- sale
and does not necessarily reflect the general trend in tb; a .
particular area. However, if the trend increases or-:continues
for the next two years , then they might take a look -at--it--and
say, yes, this is the general trend in thls particular area
and as a result would consider adjusting the tax base at that
particular time.
I 'm aware that agricultural lands have increased
in value, as everything else has within the past year or years.
But, then again, it is on a basis of agricultural lands and I
think it should be on that basis. It should not increase with
that idea that it is going to be changed from agricultural lands
to subdivisions , or residential , or urban lots. I think this is
where some of the greater problems come in because your urban, •
your residential lots _will undoubtedly bring_a better price nor
a higher pricethan_ your agricultural"lot.___ __ _ _
You just mentioned you could-te aakone acre lot and divide it
up into three parcels and sell it as such. So that cuts off the
agricultural .portion of it and you are now to an urban situation
that enhances the value. But what I 'm getting at is should not
agricultural lots be. zoned as agricultural through a general plan
with the intent that it could be sold for any amount of dollars
but whoever buys it knows that that, land is not going to be
cut up into adubdivision for residential houselots when it is
perfectly good agricultural land. And this is what is happening.
It has happened. The better lands have been turned into resit=;
dential lots and the farmers are forced into the rocky areas .
MR. ZUZAK(: The reason they have been is
because the owners of the land have been to sell it.
And the purchaser has decided to put it to a different, use.
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The best way to accomplish what you are talking
about is to create protective covenants which are restrictions
from the person who owns the property and sells it to someone
else, they are limited to use in just a certain manner. That
can be done by protective covenant which is a legal procedure
that controls the use of the land. Now, that is not in the
general plan form.
MR. SCHUTTE: That is just for a specific
property.
MR. ZUZAK: Yes , sir. Just for the property
that you may own . If you own a hundred acres or a thousand
acres of land you can do it on your land but you can ' t do it ,
on the land that is owned by your neighbor.
MR. SCHUTTE: Then that doesn ' t necessarily
help the overall situation because if you have a general plan
condition to go by. If one is not going to go by the general
plan in its adopted use and forum then why have the general
plan at all y That 's my way of- thinking. You know, if you are
going to designate cert aiW°-1=and`s!"as ag lands ; certain lands as
,resort ; hotels ; residential or what have you, then I think that
7-'-sh6 dl heiad.bered to as best as possible. Otherwise there is
Map sense in having the general plan and all I 'm saying is that
with this in mind you would tend. to stop this speculation if a
buyer knew that if he bought into ag land he is not going to
change it into residential lots two weeks from now. But if he
bought into a residential lot he is not going to turn around
and put up a pi?ggery right next door to my lot. And I think
the same thing would be down in your resort areas. All that
western side of the island is all heading for that. They say
lava land, but , believe me, it is not that expensive to change
lava land into very productive tourist properties
MR. ZUZJ K:T That part is correct and that is
exactly what they are proposing to do because it is not usable
for many other things than that. That produces the greatest
number of dollars . The only thing that we are trying to do is
when that- does b'appen so that it does not adversely affect
other properties by reason of the change of as8"essment , we
feel that the prices are going to continue to increase on the
l'aua land areas that are good for visitor development . They
will continue to go up. We will derive income for it for the
County of Hawaii but if we are not careful by something similar
tothis to protect it those increased values will find themselves
being reflected in. other properties that the use has not changed.
And that is really what ive are talking about.
Now, with respect to Daae other area, that is
a matter of possibly control in speculation outside of the
purview of what we ' re referring to as the tax approach to it to
protect the local people who are here from those who are
speculating in use of the property.
CHAIRMAN SAKATA: We would like to thank Mr. Moss
and Mr: Zuzack andMr. Fitzgibbons for presenting . their views to
us today.
MR. ZUZAK: ' Thank you very much for letting
us be with you.
37
RECESS: At 6 : 03 p.m. the Chair called for a short recess.
RECONVENE: At 6 : 26 p.m. the meeting reconvened with all
members present.
RULES OF The Chair called for the meeting to return to
PROCEDURE: the Rules of Procedure.
Motion was made by Mr. Trulson.
Seconded by Mrs. Kobayashi and
unanimously carried.
APPROVAL The Chair called for the approval of minutes
OF MINUTES: dated February 27, 1979.
Motion was made by Mrs. Iwamoto.
Seconded by Mrs. Kobayashi and
unanimously carried.
COMMUNE- The following communications were considered :
CATIONS:—`
Comm. 29. 1 : Letter from R. B. Legaspi , County Clerk , dated
March 1 , 1979 submitting 2nd and 3rd Charter
Commission excerpts of minutes regarding their
respective discussions on the alternate forms
of government.:
Comm. 30 : Copy of memo from Stanley A. Nakamee, Director
of Finance, dated February 22 ,. 19,79 to all
departments submitting interpretation of the
meals and U-drive sections of Policy on Travel.
Comm. 31 : Letter from Barney Menor, Deputy Managing
Director, dated March . 5 , 1979 submitting an
overview of the Mass Transit Agency and its
recommendations regarding the County Charter.
Comm. 32 : Letter from Sidney M. Fuke, Director, dated
March 6, 1979 submitting the Planning Department
recommendations for charter revision.
Mr. Trulson moved that Communications
29.. 1-32 be received and filed.
Seconded by Mr. Cadinha and unanimously
carried.
•
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NEW Mr. Schutte moved to withdraw the motion
BUSINESS: made to invite speakers from Maui County.
Seconded by.. Mr. Cadinha and unanimously
carried.
Motion was made by Mr. Schutte to approve
the updated Calendar and Target Dates of
the commission with the exceptionof March
20 , 1979 with the tentative appearance of
the UPW and March 27, 1979 with the tenta-
tive appearance of the HGEA. Seconded by
Mrs. Kobayashi . Unanimously carried.
ADJOURNMENT: There being no further busines , the meeting
was adjourned at 6: 34 p.m. until Tuesday,
March 20, 1979 at 3 : 30 p.m. , Hawaii County
Councilroom.
Joan Carnett
RECORDING SECRETARY
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