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Home My WebLink AboutCHC 1979-05-01 PH HAWAII COUNTY CHARTER COMMISSION MINUTES 16th Session and Public Hearing Hilo, Hawaii May 1 , 1979 The sixteenth session and public hearing of the Hawaii County Charter Commission was called to order at 7:00 p.m. in the Hawaii County Councilroom, Hilo, Hawaii, by Mr. Kimiaki Sakata, Chairman. The roll recorded the following: Present: Mr. Richard Ishida Mrs. Amy Iwamoto Mrs. Gloria Kobayashi Mr. Akira Omonaka Mr. Kimiaki Sakata Mr. Herman Sensano Mr. Joseph Trulson Mr. Basilio Yagong Mr. Matsuo Yanaga Absent Mr. Harlan Cadinha and Mr. Spencer Kalani Schutte Excused: Also Mr. Kengo Nagasako Present: Mrs. Janet Silva Mrs. Dorothea Carvalho Mr. Robert J. Santos Mr. Donald K. Yamada Mr. Robert M. Yamada Mr. Harvey S. Tajiri Mr. Michael Mentnech Mrs. Susan Irvine Mr. Sam Wallis, Jr. Mr. Stuart Oda, Attorney Mrs. Joan Carnett, Secretary Mr. Bruce McCall The Chair introduced the guest speakers for the public hearing and called upon Attorney Stuart Oda to refer to the Rules of Procedure. MR. ODA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. These rules will apply to the procedures regarding public statements. All persons desiring to speak before the commission shall register with the Secretary prior to the convening of the meeting or before making their statements and shall provide the commission with their name, address and organization they represent. No person who fails to register shall be heard. The Chairman shall call the name of the person desiring to speak and all persons shall speak before a microphone and be informed that their statements will be recorded. All statements before the coTmission shall be in reference to provisions of the Charter of the County of Hawaii or those that may be proposed as amendments or additions thereto. Statements not relevant, at the discretion of the Chairman , shall not be heard or considered. Whenever requested or appropriate, the speaker shall specify the Charter provision referred to so that members may be familiar with its provisions. All statements are to be made to the commission in general and not to any specific member unless in response to a question by the said member. At any time, the Chairman or any commission member may interrupt any person making a statement for a clarification or an answer. At the discretion of the Chairman , .each person may be allotted a specific number of minutes to speak. Written proposals regarding any amendments or additions to the Charter may be submitted at the time of the hearing, or after the hearing. I believe we have a deadline of May 29. Written statements on issues' before the commission may be deferred until such time as the subject matter referred to in the agenda, or statement, appears on the commission ' s agenda. If deferred, the writer shall be informed when the issue will be on the agenda to allow the writer the opportunity to address the commission and elaborate or clarify his statement, should he so desire. Oral statements before the commission will be heard at scheduled public hearings to be held by the commission. The commission requests that{ any persons making any statements, if possible, have a written statement prepared and distributed prior to making a statement. It is merely a request. It is not mandatory, it is so commission members can follow your statements as they go along. If you don ' t have anything like that, don ' t worry about it, i!t is not absolutely mandatory. Thank you. The Chair introduced Mr. Kengo Nagasako as the first speaker. -2- MR. NAGASAKO: Mr. Sakata, Chairman, and the other members of the Charter Review Commission. I am Kengo Nagasako, 45 Aloalo Street, Hilo, Hawaii , speaking for himself as a concerned citizen of this county. This evening I will want to touch on three articles of the county charter. The first is Article VII , Executive Branch, Departments or Agencies under Commissions. Section 7-1.6. Also Sections 7-2. 7, 7-3.5 and Section 8-5 . May I read Section 7-1.6, as an example. This has to do with administrative supervision, "The department of personnel services shall come under the general supervision and control of the mayor. " Now, for Section 7-2. 7, of course, we have reference to the police department. Section 7-3.5 we have the department of liquor control. And, Section 8-5 has to do with administrative supervision of the department of water supply. The question I am raising to the Charter Review Commission is should these sections on administrative super- vision be clarified? At least, in the minutes of the Review Commission ' s proceedings? In other words , the term or expression, "the general supervision or control of the mayor, " what does that mean? I ask this question because a few years ago, I was asked for a written opinion by a member of the corporation counsel ' s staff. The next article that I wish to comment on is Article XV which has to do with the charter amendment or revision in which you are presently actively involved. Section 15-1. Initiation of Amendments or Revisions. Amendments or revision&^of this charter may be initiated only in the following manner, and I go to item ( a) By ordinance of the council adopted after three readings on separate days and passed by the affirmative vote of two-thirds of the entire membership. The question I am raising is should public hearings be mandatory before final adoption of the ordinance by the county council? I raise that question because certainly the charter is a basic document for the county government and as you are providing us this evening, should the public be granted an opportunity to express its views? The final article that I wish to touch on this evening is Article III , the Legislative Branch of the County Council. I have reference to Section 3-2. Composition and terms . Now, my proposal is there shall be a county council composed of nine members , four of whom shall be elected -3- at-large and five elected by districts in the following manner: One by the voters of the 1st State Representative District, two by the voters of the 2nd State Representative District, one by the voters of the 3rd State Representative District, and one by the voters of the 4th State Representative District. Council members elected at-large shall serve for staggered four-year terms beginning with the 1980 general election. Council members elected in the respective State Representative Districts shall serve for two-year terms. . . .and of course, if the commission will complete that portion of the section. This combination plan is not new in concept or in application. The members of our state legislature, for example, are elected. The representatives are elected according to districts, and the senators are elected at-large. Also, the members of the United States Congress are elected under this combination plan. Our congressmen are elected by representative districts and our senators are elected at-large in the state. I support this combination plan, very strongly, for the following reasons: 1. Pure or direct district representation is established, while at-large representation is retained. May I stress my personal viewpoint that regardless of what plan of electing our councilmen is adopted, at-large concept should be represented. Simply for the reason that the problems that we face today in Hawaii Island, the energy crunch, the survival of the sugar industry, the development of the tourist industry, inflation, these are not only island wide problems, state wide problems , but certainly national as well as international in scope. What we need to encourage among our voters and our elected leaders is a perspective from the island wide standpoint , at-. 1east. Advantage No. 2 of the combination plan , the council districts coincide with the State Representative Districts. Thus, our county government is relieved of the task and the expense of reapportioning the districts affected by population changes and shifts. 3. With staggered four-year:= terms for the four council members to be elected at-large, some continuity is assured in the organization and workings of the county council. 4. With four council members elected at-large, adequate flexibility is provided for population changes and shifts among the districts. And, finally, advantage No. 5 , interest and participation in the county elections will be enhanced with seven of the nine council members being elected every two years. Thank you, members of the commission, for this opportunity to express my views and I wish to thank you for your tireless efforts and the many long hours you are spending. -4- MR. SENSANO: Mr. Nagasako. On the purely district representation, I don ' t know whether you mentioned it here, presently the district representatives on the council are also elected by the rest of the island. Would you eliminate that portion so that a person running from a district will only be voted by the voters of that district? MR. NAGASAKO: Yes, certainly, that is the plan. In other words, as we elect state representatives only the voters of the district concernedhave a choice in voting or voting for the state representative. In other words , it is a pure or direct district representation. What we have now is I would say a hybrid or compromise plan. MR. OMONAKA: Mr. Nagasako. Under your proposal would it be possible that the four at-large candidates could be elected from just one general area? Say, Hilo versus none from Kona, as an example? MR. NAGASAKO: Yes, there is no question the reality that at the present three members of the council at-large do come from one particular district, namely, the most populated district in the island. However, the point I am trying to emphasize is that unlike a generation or two ago with improved communication and improved transportation, the problems are becoming not only national in scope, but international in scope. We have to expand. We have to encourage our elected leaders and also, we, ourselves, should develop a broad perspective. Certainly a Big Island perspective. So whether our councilmen come from one particular district like Hilo, in the present case, but--if I am not mistaken , the gold coast of Kona or the District of Kona is more rapidly growing than the Hilo district. Therefore, I see distinctly within the next decade or so population shifts and so on. I hope in terms of voting strength that the island will become more equally balanced. I certainly hope so. I feel that with that type of expectation on the part of all of us we will help our councilmen no matter where they come from. They will be responsive to the needs of any district and every district on this island. MR. TRULSON: Mr. Nagasako. Are you aware that in your proposal that one of the present council seats would be lost if you went to representative districts? In other words , I believe the Waimea councilman ' s position today would be eliminated under your proposal. MR. NAGASAKO: Yes , I do realize that. Of course, the reason I am proposing the council district to be identical with the state representative district is that we talk about not duplicating effort, we talk about economy and so forth. . .Let ' s have the state reapportionment commission carry out the task for us and the expense for us . Incidentally, in terms of reappor- tioning districts and setting boundaries , that is not a simple matter. R'egardless of who does it, : how we do it, I believe district boundaries are very controversial. MR. OMONAKA: Mr. Nagasako. How do you feel about four at-large being split say two from West Hawaii using the historical boundaries that we have that wereunder the board of supervisors , and maybe two from the East Hawaii boundaries? -5- MR. NAGASAKO: It would be contrary to my thinking and my proposal. Because then we would be setting up another level of district, in other words. And, Mr. Omonaka, I believe you know I have been , you might say, a stubborn advocate of election at-large for all councilmen. So, this evening, in proposing this. combination plan , I am trying to accommodate this pure or direct district representation point of view. I believe that is fairer than the present plan that we have where a councilman may 'not be the choice of the majority within his district yet be elected by the voters of the other districts. MRS. KOBAYASHI : Mr. Nagasako. Going back to your first proposal about clarification. What did you mean by clarification? Do youolwant those sections eliminated? MR. NAGASAKO: Before I can answer that question, I will have to determine what the experience has been. In other words, how the county government has functioned within the last ten years with such a provision in it. So, at this moment, I would say I am asking for a clarification. MRS. KOBAYASHI : 'As to what has been done. . . MR. NAGASAKO: Well , actually, what it means. Because I, myself, was asked for a written opinion a few years ago and, of course, I did submit it. But you may want to further determine whether there may be clarification or whether this provision should be left in the charter, itself. MR. ISHIDA: Mr. Nagasako. In your last state- ment that you were asked for an opinion on this general supervision provision , may I ask for what purpose what that? MR. NAGASAKO: It was Mr. Meyer, who is no longer with the county government, asked me for a written opinion in reference to the relationship between the police commission , or the police department, and the mayor. A few years ago, yes. MR. ISHIDA: I infer from your statement that h; you were asked because you were in some position of knowledge. This is what I am trying to determine. MR. NAGASAKO: Yes , I had the privilege of working with Mr. Omonaka with the third Charter Commission in 1968. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Mr. Nagasako. On this compo- sition in terms of the county council, you have proposed here that the at-large candidates elected at-large shall serve for staggered four-year terms and then this to start in the 1980 general election, then the council members elected in their respective state representative districts shall serve for two- year terms? Do you feel that the two-year term will give them ample length of time to do any good in the council? Two years? -6- MR. NAGASAKO: If I am remembering the intent of the third Charter Commission, the only reason that the four- year term, in other words , the council ' s terms, or supervisor's terms were lengthened is because election at-large was called for. Otherwise, in terms of practice, I don ' t believe there is any justification for a district representative or a council representative to serve for longer than two-year terms. Even our congressmen have to serve for simply two-year terms. So, I would say a two-year term for a council member is long enough. But, the council members to be elected at-large, certainly, deserve a longer term and that is why we said let ' s have them serve for four-year terms. MR. TRULSON: Mr. Nagasako. Getting back to Section 15-1 . I have a copy of your paper here and your question was, should public hearings be mandatory before final adoption of the ordinance, although the charter presently provides that it should be up to the electorate to vote on proposed amendments or revisions. Are you also suggesting, perhaps, public hearings prior to the election? MR. NAGASAKO: No. I am suggesting a public hearing, or public hearings, before the county council finally adopts the proposed revisions or amendments. But, raising the question whether that would be feasible or desirable. MR. ISHIDA: Mr. Nagasako. On this four-year term for the at-large candidate, council member, I am trying to reconcile in my mind your basis for giving them that additional term. I believe one of the things you did state was continuity. The continuity, in that sense, you are giving to the council , is to be established by two individuals. It seems to me that if we do that do we not give these two individuals unreasonable advantage over the seven other newly elected council members? MR. NAGASAKO: Yes, Mr. Ishida, I would expect that the two hold over council members serving their second two-year term, let ' s say, may be expected to have some advantage in terms of organizing the new council. That is correct. But I feel that may be an advantage for the organization and the subsequent functioning of the county council . But the four-year term, basically, is for the reason they are required to run at-large rather than within one district. In this proposal , of course, it is a state representative district. MR. ISHIDA: You do not feel that all council members should "serve -an equal length __of terms? In other w- ords, all two-years or all four-years? MR. NAGASAKO: Well , if the Charter Review Commission were to recommend to the electorate all nine council members to be elected at-large, I would definitely say, yes, they should all serve the four-year term as they are doing now. But if it is simply council district, or state representative district or congressional district, I . . . MR. ISHIDA: May I ask you why you feel if they represent or come from a specific district, why you feel they should be restricted to a two-year term? -7- MR. NAGASAKO: One reason is simply that that is the established practice. Whether it is the state representa- tives or our congressmen , it ' s two-year terms. As I mentioned , one of the reasons. . . let ' s give us , ourselves , and the voters the opportunity to evaluate the performance of our elected officials as often as possible. I believe if it is running within a district, if it is a state representative district, or take our congressman from the 2nd representative district, every two years he has to run just about throughout the state. MR. ISHIDA: I somewhat agree with you but it seems to me that if that is the case, it would be more consistent that everybody should run every two years. I 'm just trying to reconcile your distinction to my mind. MR. NAGASAKO: Of course, in the state legislature our three senators serve for four-year terms . I know it is a bicameral legislature and they are members of the upper house, yet I would guess that the main reason is--well , one reason is , that they are running at-large throughout the island. MR. ISHIDA: How about accountability? As far as these four at-large individuals that are running for the four- year terms? Do you feel that they would be as accountable as those running for the two years? MR. NAGASAKO: In terms of accountability, in terms of performance, my expectation would be the same. Whether they come from a council district elected for two-year terms or whether they are running at-large and serving four-year terms. My expec- tation of each one of them would be the same. Of course, my point is that we would want to have each one of the nine council members to be serving the people of Hawaii County and not one particular district. For example, I believe there is one district on this island which is unique and that is the District of Kona. What is unique about the District of Kona compared to the other districts? It is the only district which produces commercial coffee. But the question I am raising is even if four or five, the majority of the councilmen came from Kona, in terms of strengthening the welfare of the Kona farmers and industry, how much can they do? It ' s what happens in the fields in Latin American and Brazil that affects the Kona coffee industry. The problems you and I face, we face, are so complex and wide and national and international in scope that we have to start thinking in terms of big broad terms. In other words , certainly an island wide perspective if not state wide. MRS. IWAMOTO: Mr. Nagasako, I would like to find out if you have any suggestions as to the number of terms that the councilmen should serve? MR. NAGASAKO: Yes, that is a question that;; was raised with our state legislators also. Even our national congres- sional members. If I had to vote one way or the other, I would have to further study what the advantages and disadvantages are. Right now I would say that the difference is the human element. Who has been serving us or who is serving us . I 'm sorry, I can ' t say one way or the other. Human variables are very difficult. -8- Of course, in the charter, there is the provision that the mayor cannot serve for two consecutive full terms. So, in that sense, I may be leaning toward a limited number of terms and the reason would be that let ' s have the public and more members , more leaders be given the opportunity to run for office. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Mr. Nagasako, you are advocating here that we should have more people running for public office and taking part in the political process. Do you, personally, feel that in order to get good people in office we should have some sort of a campaign spending :law? MR. NAGASAKO: My answer would be, yes, definitely. I feel that, unfortunately, too much of our resources and dollars are; being spent in the election process. Definitely too much, so I would support a campaign spending limitation. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Thank you, Mr. Nagasako. I would like to call upon Mrs. Janet Silva as our next speaker. Mrs. Silva, are you representing yourself? MRS. SILVA: I am representing myself. I 'm rather nervous but I will try my best. What I am concerned about is,.,I really believe the 'mayor should have the total jurisdiction over every department in the county. By that, I mean that he should be able to select and fire all department heads in the county. But, in order not have a political patronage sort of thing, the council should confirm each appointment. I 'm really concerned about the police department, board of water supply, and personnel services. I say this, because I believe that they don ' t feel now that they have a commission , they don ' t feel that they are a part of the county. That they are apart from other agencies and they act accordingly. They are terribly arrogant and I don ' t think that they run the business in the best intej estv of'r the :public. Since all the department heads come underi- the mayor, I think since he is the executive head, those commissions should be abolished and just have him run the whole thing. You would just eliminate the bureaucracy where a member of the public when you have a complaint you don ' t have to go through the bureaucratic procedure where you go to the commission , then to the mayor and what have you. I didn ' t have too much problem with the police department when Ernest Fergerstrom was there. I don ' t know Guy Paul too well , but I had dealings with the board of water supply. They were extremely arrogant many, many times. And personnel leaves much to be desired. They are exceptionally arrogant, and I really believe because they feel---the comment was made to me by one of the department heads that, well , the mayor can ' t fire me. He can ' t hire me and he can 't fire me. -9- I think this is the attitude when a member of the public comes to them for something or another. That is the general attitude of these people,--police department, board of water supply and personnel. So I think that the mayor should select each department head with confirmation by, the council so you don 't have a politi_cal' patronage where you have people become department heads that, in my opinion , can 't even cut the mustard. This county is so way down financially and this is what we, the public, are looking for, people who can really cut the mustard and bring this county up. These are my feelings about selection, confirmation and firing. Thank you. MR. TRULSON: Mrs. Silva.. You state that you feel the mayor should have full power with confirmation by the county council to hire department heads. By the same token, do you feel that if the mayor should want to dismiss a department head , it should be with the approval of the council also? MRS. SILVA: No, I don ' t believe so. MR. TRULSON: Why? MRS,. SILVA:- I think that the mayor will work with these people. He knows what they can and can ' t do and because of this , he should be able to fire them too. If they can ' t cut the mustard, .he should know it. Why should he go through the council ;.for that? In the hiring you have too often people that become department heads--you've got a political patronage thing::,that goes along there. These people campaign for the mayor, whoever is going to become the mayor, and so it is a thank you sort of a thing, a political patronage where these people become department heads. MR. TRULSON : Don ' t you feel_ the mayor would have a lot of power over these people if he could fire them any time he wanted to without anybody' s approval? MRS. SILVA: What is the difference with those departments and the rest of the departments? He can also fire those people. MR. TRULSON: But here you have them confirmed by the council 'to be hired,_ but. .he still can fire them any time he wants without any confirmation by the council. Don ' t you think he would have the same power, whether or not he could hire them with the council ' s approval? It ' s the same thing, only a little bit reversed. I think he would have a little more power. MRS. SILVA: No, it is not the same thing because when they are selected by the mayor, like I say, it is usually people that campaign for that person and so rather than selecting omeone highly qualified and competent, he ' ll pick on somebody to head the department in a political patronage thing. It ' s a favoritism thing that I am looking at. I think the mayor of the county, whoever he may be, should be intelligent enough to know whether he should fire a person or not to fire a person. -10- But if you think it is a good idea to have it go through the council before he fires a person , I believe in due process of law. I think maybe that is a good idea, too, if you think it is . But I am more concerned with the hiring part that you don ' t have any ties whatsoever between the mayor and the department head is what I am thinking about. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Next we will have Mrs. Dorothea Carvalho. MRS. CARVALHO: Members of the Charter Commission , my name is Dorothea Carvalho, 394 Haili Street, Hilo. I am here to make several complaints and to make a few suggestions regarding our County Charter. Complaints first. I don ' t see how this can be called a hearing since you,--:as a group, have not offered any kind of a statement about what your suggestions and ideas are. In my estimation this is a workshop. You are supposedly picking our brains, or, asking us for suggestions so that you can then put together a compilation of facts and ideas and come up with a new charter which should be offered to the public in a hearing for further discussion before you finally put it together for us to vote on. If the meetings that have already been held had been held at a more convenient time for the public you would have had a better audience. Also, as a member of the public, I still do not know whether we would have been allowed to make a statement at any of the meetings. It seems the department heads and all government agencies were the ones to be heard. I attended only one meeting and that was not because I was ;or am not interested. I just could not attend a meeting held at 3 : 30 p.m. on a Tuesday and at that meeting the room was so cold, I had to leave or freeze to death. As commissioners , I think that if you wanted the public to appear you should have scheduled the meetings at a time convenient for the public and not for you commissioners. If you did not want to be inconvenienced, you could have refused the commission. I 'm not trying to be sassy. This is a temporary commission so the inconvenience will be short lived. When you found out that there was no audience, you could have made a strong statement to the public by way of the Hawaii Tribune Herald and the rest of the media that you wanted input , but it seems that instead you made it difficult for the public. I am sure that if we had been made aware of which area of the charter you were going to discuss, you would have an audience. But we do have to be forewarned so we can prepare a proper and intelligent statement. If you had said, by way of the media, that on a specific date you were going to discuss initiative, referendum and recall , you would have had a full house. We are fortunate that our county charter does include initiative and referendum. I would like to see it also include recall . -11- I do not foresee any great rush to utilize IRR, but it is a good way for the public to have more say in government. If they have more say in government they will be more interested and that is healthy. When the public feels repressed they have to have an out. As one of the instigators of the only successful referendum this county has ever had, I will tell you, it is not easy. I hope to never have to do it again. It is too costly in time, money, and energy. But it should be there if we need it. Now that the county will be taking over the property tax assessments, I think it is time to speak out for the property owners. The homeowners who actually live on their property. We need a •break. Oh , yes, the rate has remained the same, but the evaluation has gone up so that the taxes are out of sight for many pensioners and retirees. When a person buys a home, the evaluation should be frozen until he dies , moves out, or sells the place and then a new evaluation should be made. There should be, definitely, a minimum assessment. We all use government services of some kind. Have you ever considered a head tax? We have many transients who come here for a year or two and never own property. They use our government facilities and perhaps should help pay for them. Some provision should be made so that when a member of the county council is ill , as has happened with Kawahara, and will be unable to carry out his duties for any length of time there can be someone to represent him in his district. The easiest way would be for him to appoint someone pro tem. But if he were unable to do so then there has to be another way. I suggest that when any official takes office, he could, at that time, designate someone to represent him if the necessity ever arises. I would like to see staggered terms so that it would be impossible for there to be a complete turnover of the county council membership at any time. That way there would not be the long period of learning the ropes. Perhaps we should also limit the number of terms a councilman can serve. Say two consecutive terms. We should also limit the amount of money spent for campaigning. Not more than one year' s salary for the position you are campaigning for. Elected officials who are doing a good job are known to the public. Those who spend the most are not necessarily the best officials. Our code of ethics reads well but it does nO€ seem to be properly enforced. We should strengthen the enforcement of that. I hope that there will be a true hearing at a later date once you have gathered all the information and input you need and have a document ready for us to study. Thank you. MR. TRULSON : Mrs. Carvalho, I have two questions. One, regarding the freezing of taxes , are you stating only on residences? Just on private residences? -12- MRS. CARVALHO: That ' s right. Just on private residences. MR. TRULSON: And, second , regarding the vacancy question if a councilman should be ill. The original charter had such a provision and there was an amendment in the 1974 election. The electorate voted it out so we have it as it is in the charter, today. In other words , we did have such a provision and it was decided by the voters that they didn ' t want it. MRS. CARVALHO: Perhaps they didn ' t realize that it could happen that someone would be ill for some length of time as happened with Bill Kawahara. And then his district was not fully represented in the council. Had there been some way that he could have appointed or, if at the time he was sworn into office, he had designated someone that in the case that it would happen. . .as foresight. MR. ISHIDA: Mrs. Carvalho. On this recall , there have been proposals made to the commission that the terms of the council:, members be either four or two years. If the terms are restricted to two years, do you feel it would be necessary to have recall? MRS. CARVALHO: I don ' t think it would be necessary. MR. ISHIDA: Not for two years? Only in the event the term be for four years? MRS. CARVALHO: That ' s right. Four years can be a long time if the wrong guy is sitting there. MR. ISHIDA: Is it your feeling that the matter of real property taxes on residences should be covered in the charter? The reason I am asking is in view of the fact that this mandatory review, right now and every ten years , that such a thing might be so restrictive that it might handicap the county if we do put such a provision in the charter. Whereas , maybe four years from now it should be changed. MRS. CARVALHO: Well , I just thought that it would become a part of the charter because now this is a new regime. I hadn ' t gone any farther than that. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Mrs. Carvalho, thank you very much for your concerns. We have heard a great deal about some of the things that you have mentioned regarding vacancy in office and staggered terms ,from many people who have testified before us. We see your concern and we will take into account your suggestions. Thank you. Next we would like to call upon Robert J. Santos who represents the Hawaii Island Chamber of Commerce. -13- MR. SANTOS: Mr. Chairman and members of the Charter Review Commission. My name is Robert J! Santos and I am the Vice President of the Hawaii Island Chamber of Commerce and Chairman of its legislative committee. We have made an indepth study of the Charter of the County of Hawaii with an';eye toward possible revision. Our legislative committee in conjunction with similar committees of the Japanese Chamber of Commerce and Industry and the Hilo Contractor' s Association held a series of nine meetings on the subject. Input' was received from the mayor, the director of finance, the corporation counsel , the manager of the department of water supply, the chief of police, the director of personnel services and the director of the department of liquor control. A report of our legislative committee on the charter was presented to our board of directors and it was the unanimous decision of the board of directors that we pass on these recommendations to you. The recommendations are attached. (Communication #45 , May 8 Agenda) These proposed amendments are of vital concern to us and we would welcome the opportunity to discuss these recommendations further with you any time in the future you may be considering them in your deliberations. Please feel free to call on us. With your permission now, Mr. Chairman , I would like to proceed with the various recommendations. The first item has to do with Article III , Section 3-2 which deals with the composition and terms of the county council . It is recommended that the charter be amended to provide that five councilmen be elected by districts exactly as we elect ourr members of the State House of Representatives. Each to be elected for a term of two years. Two councilmen to be elected at-large for a term of four years. There would be a total of seven councilmen. Our second proposal is in Article V and deals with Chapter 4, the planning department and Chapter 5 , the research and development. It is recommended that these two departments be combined into a single department similar to the state ' s department of planning and economic development. The revision should provide that the head of this department need not be one whose education and/or work background is in planning. The next recommendation deals with Article VI , Section 6-2.2 and deals with the department of public works and its chief engineer. It is recommended that the title of the head of this department be changed to director and a requirement that he be a registered professional engineer be deleted. It is felt that this is a position requiring administrative ability rather than engineering skills. The next recommendation deals with Article VIII , department of water supply. We feel that this department should no longer be the semi-autonomous body it now is. It should be -14- just another department of the county' s executive branch. The water commission should be abolished and their duties and responsibilities turned over to-the executive branch or a legislative branch as may be appropriate to make the operation of this department consistent with the operation of other county departments. We feel that the head of this department should be appointed by the mayor with the approval of the county council . We also feel that the requirement that the head of this department be a registered engineer should be deleted as this, too, is a position requiring administrative ability rather than engineering skill. I might interject here, Mr. Chairman, that in our meeting with the head of the department of water supply, in response to a direct question he told us that as long as he has been managing the department of water supply, he has not had to make a single decision that has required the abilities of an-engineer. Our next recommendation deals with Article X, financial procedures. It is recommended that the charter be amended to provide that there shall be an expenditure ceiling for the operating budget which shall limit expenditures to the total revenues of the county, exclusive of state or federal funds or grants. It is further recommended that the charter be amended to provide that the net bonded debt shall not exceed 5% of the full market value as determined by the tax office of real property in the County of Hawaii. With regard to Article XI, initiative and referendum, we refer to Section 11-2, limitations to powers. It is recommended that this entire section be deleted from the charter. The net effect would be to eliminate all limitations to the power of initiative. And finally Article XIII , general provisions with regard to Section 13-4, boards and commissions. A provision should be added which will provide that a person ' s occupation or business shall not, in itself, be a bar from someone serving on any board or commission of the County of Hawaii. And .finally, we feel that a Sunset provision should be added to the county charter which would provide that at least once every four years the council critically review every program supported by county funds and unless the council favorably authorizes its continuation at the then current or modified levels the program would be terminated. We feel that the council should adopt procedures and details to implement this new section. That is the conclusion of our presentation , Mr. Chairman. I would be most happy, to answer any questions that you or the members of your commission may have. MR. TRULSON: Mr. Santos. To come up with questions to something you have worked on for a long time, evidently, right off the top of my head is a little difficult. I have one regarding initiative and referendum, Section 11-2. -15- If you should absolve all the restrictions regarding this , this has been presented to us before, is it possible, or not possible, that if you don ' t have these limitations that say, a labor contract is being negotiated with county employees, somebody could begin, by referendum and initiative to stop that, right? Do you think they should be able to do that? MR. SANTOS: They could. Mr. Trulson, the charter, I believe, presently requires that the petition containing the signatures of 15% of the voters who voted in the last mayoral election are required before an item can be presented to the council on the initiative program. I think it has been proven in the past that obtaining 15%, which ,. I understand now,: is somewhere in the vicinity of 5 ,800 signatures , is no small task. But if there are enough disgruntled citizens or unhappy citizens who are willing to sign a petition to qualify for that then, by all means, I feel that it should be put to the rest of the voters for a decision. MR. TRULSON: In a way, you would find the deletion of that section giving the people more power as to how their government uses the finances? MR. SANTOS: I think that too much concern is placed on this matter being misused. I don ' t believe that the initiative procedure has been used in the ten years that we have been under the charter and I believe the referendum procedure was used only once. I don' t feel , by opening it up to these other avenues will open us up to a whole bag of matters being brought up under these two sections. MR. TRULSON: If it hasn ' t been used and the chances are, it won ' t, why delete it? MR. SANTOS: I think it is always nice to have this club in your hand, the voters hand. That they have the right to initiate any action that a council refuses to take or to change some action that they are unhappy with that the council made. MR. SENSANO: Mr. Santos , in your" rredornmencition here you specifically mention the abolition of the water board commission. Why are you singling out this department and not mention the other commissions also? Like the police commission and the others? MR. SANTOS: No other department in the_ county, to my knowledge, has the autonomy that the department .of=water supply has. I believe that in the department of water supply the water commission has powers, responsibility_and_ duties far exceeding those that govern the police department or the police commission and the liquor commission. Secondly, there are those who feel that because the liquor department and the police department deal with public safety that there should be no question about these being far removed from any politics. While we are in tune with the intent of the basic charter we have now which is that of a strong mayor type of government, we felt it the better part of valor not to tamper with those two departments at this time. -16- CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Mr. Santos. In your planning department and department of research and development proposal you propose that they should be combined into a single department. And also you propose that the provisisn to provide that the head of the department need not be one whose education and work background be in planning. What was the rationale behind this not requring the education and work background in planning? MR. SANTOS: Simply, that we don ' t feel either of those departments should have as its head someone who is technically skilled in that particular endeavor. For example, Mr. Chairman, I think you are aware that you or I can legally be appointed chief of police in this county, but yet neither your nor I could be appointed head of the department of public works or the department of planning. Again we feel that just as in the state department of planning and economic development we had for some time a gentleman there who was, by training, a planner, we now have a gentlemen heading that department who has no background in planning and judging from the hue and cry that was raised when it seemed like his reappointment was in danger, I think that, by and large, the people of the State:,of Hawaii think that HidetojKono, has done a fantastic job even though he does not have any educational background in planning. MR. TRULSON: Mr. Santos. Regarding boards and commissions. What is the rationale behind this provision? MR. SANTOS : I thought it would be rather obvious , Mr. Trulson. On at least two occasions the ethics commission has ruled that people who are in the real estate profession cannot serve on the planning commission. We feel this is wrong and we feel very definite that if someone had the financial resources to take this matter to court, and the desire to do so, that it would be proven unconstitutional . MRS. KOBAYASHI : Mr. Santos. Why is it seven councilmen instead of nine as we presently have? MR. SANTOS : I think that the majority of the joint committees that we have had studying this wanted to recommend a five member council but we were very doubtful that we could sell the members of the Charter Commission on this or if we were successful in doing that that you could sell the people, the voters , on it. We feel that with a smaller group there would be far less chance for factionalism and I might add that in thevery large County of Los Angeles, there are only five councilmen , or as they are called there, members of the board of supervisors. Certainly, if they can handle the affairs for a county the size of Los Angeles, seven should be able to handle a county the size of Hawaii. MRS. KOBAYASHI : Would that mean that the two at-large would be the only ones looking after the county, as a whole , and that the five running per district would only take care of their district? It could be argued that way. -17- MR. SANTOS: I ' d like to think that--let me go back this way, let ' s say that we are referring to the representative in the house of representatives from the Kona District. I would like to think that when he is in the legislature, or acting in his official capacity in other ways , that he represents the people of his entire district and not just the people on the street in which he lives. I do not feel that because you have district representations that the party involved should be only looking after the interest of his own district. I think by being elected a councilman he automatically picks up the responsibility of caring for the needs of the entire county. We are recommeding a split, as some others have, as sort of a compromise between the system that we have now and what some people are asking for which is the full district representation. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Mr. Santos , did your group, by any chance on Section 13-4, Boards and Commissions , come across anything where a person ' s occupation, profession or business has barred the person from serving on a commission? MR. SANTOS: Yes , very definitely. As I mentioned earlier, Mr. Chairman , there have been I believe two rulings by the county' s ethics commission which in essence said that a member of the real estate profession could not serve as a member of the county planning commission. I might add that I served as a member of the planning commission for five years , Mr. Chairman , and during that term there were two people in the real estate profession who also served on the commission with me. These were John T. Freitas and Ken Griffin. At no time, to my knowledge, did they ever violate any code of ethics because of their profession, occupation or business. MRS. IWAMOTO: Mr. Santos , I have a question. If you do combine the planning and research and development departments together, would the head of the department be appointed by the mayor and would he require a council approval? MR. SANTOS: Yes. I am sorry we didn ' t cover that. I 'm glad you brought the question up. It is the intent that it would remain as it is now, a position that would be appointed by the mayor and approved by the council . MR. ISHIDA: Mr. Santos , doesn ' t this point that appointment by the mayor and approved by the council--you suggested that that possibly be retained as far as the new department that you recommended to be formed, now, you know, we have been given recommendations as to department heads being appointed without confirmation, department heads being appointed subject to confirmation and on the whole scale of one or the other--has your group ever delved into that area? As the charter now stands there are two positions that are subject to council confirmation. MR. SANTOS: Yes , we did go into that very thoroughly. There were some members in our group who feel very strongly about the strong mayor system and felt that none of the appointments should be subject to confirmation by the council . -18- There were some members who felt that while they were for a strong mayor type of government that all department heads should be confirmed by the county council. Because of this division we felt that we would pretty much leave it as it is with the one exception being the department of water supply which is a little deviation from that rule. In my personal opinion , if I may state that the president ' s cabinet is confirmed by the United States Senate. The governor ' s cabinet is confirmed by the state senate. And I personally feel that the mayor ' s cabinet should be confirmed by the county council . It gives us that check and balance. In answer to a question that was asked of someone else, I do not believe that this would mean that if the mayor wants to fire someone he has to get the council ' s permission because this would then divide that department head ' s allegiance between the council and the mayor. The department head should realize that the mayor is his boss once he is appointed and confirmed and that he owes his allegiance and must listen to the directives of the mayor and no one else. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: We thank you, Mr. Santos. MR. SANTOS: Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. I again would like to repeat our offer that we are willing to meet with you at less formal circumstances , if you so desire. Where we can answer further questions or clarify our position on any of these matters. Thank you. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Next we would like to call upon Mr. Donald Yamada. MR. DONALD YAMADA: Mr. Chairman, members of the Charter Review Commission. My name is Donald Yamada and I represent the Hilo Contractor' s Association as its Legislative Chairman and the Japanese Chamber of Commerce and Industry of Hawaii as its Legislative Chairman. I have no printed testimony because as our speaker previous to me said in his presentation and the deliberations for that presentation , the legislative committees of these organizations met over a series of nine to ten meetings overthe past two or three months. We -unanimously agreed on the points that he presented this evening. So I would just like to confirm and for the record say that that testimony also is indicative of the positions of the Hilo Contractor' s Association and the Japanese Chamber of Commerce and Industry of Hawaii . Thank you. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Thank you very much, Mr. Yamada. Next we have Mr. Robert Yamada. MR. ROBERT YAMADA: Good evening members of the Charter Review Committee. I have no prepared statement. However, as I went to bed last night , I thought of attending this committee and give an input as to my experience as a councilman for four years and for four years as chairman of the council that I may -19- convey to you some of the inside feelings of being a councilman. I don ' t know whether this will be of any help to you. I know you people are all tired listening to the same old story, same old subject and I am pretty sure it is very boring. I have been a public official and I certainly understand the feeling. However, as a councilman for four years , in fact , eight years , I feel that I have a sense of understanding and feeling of what the composition of the council should be. You may not have to abide by it but at least listen and I would appreciate very much any questions you might have after my presentation. I served on the council with six Democrats and three Republicans, the first term. The second term we had nine Democrats. To be honest with you, I think we had a better council when we had the Republicans and the Democrats because we had the difference between different opinions and we got along pretty well . However, when our councilmen were nine Democrats , I was at that time being the chairman, and it was a difficult task to keep the councilmen together and work together with the administration for the betterment of our people and the County of Hawaii and coordinate with the state government and also the federal government. Council work is not just purely being elected and attend the council meetings. There are far more responsibilites because of the coordination of the county, state and the federal government. This is where, as the • previous speakers have mentioned, we receive a large amount of grants from the state and federal government and we have to work very closely because our revenue alone from the real property will not sustain our services to all the general public. During my term, I have come to a conclusion that nine councilmen is to cumbersome. I. think we should have just five and follow the representative district. One of the big reasons is this , that we have a councilman from Ka'u.::who -- represents 3,000 people and we have only one councilman repre- senting North and South Hilo with 38,000 people. Is that fair? It is impossible. You might say, oh, everybody elected at-large. Yes , they all elected at-large. But we are all human beings . You and I , we are human beings. And I have noticed that each councilman who comes from the district always favor their district before they consider any other district. When we have a share of the CIP , I took notice that all the money goes into their district. And, members of the Charter Review, I swear to this , this is human nature. So what is the good of running at-large? I don ' t think it is any help. It is just creating a lot of cost and expense to the councilmen. Spending $25 , 000 , $30 , 000 to get elected. Half their salary for the four-year term is already gone and then there are other miscellaneous in other ways. Are they just working for the pure sake of being honored as an elected official , as a councilman? Of course, it is a great honor to be elected by the people. I also feel that the •councilmen should be compensated as they are today. They should be elected for four years because I think it is very difficult for a councilman to -20- be elected without some background when their family budget may be $15 , 000 annually, and then all of a sudden he is working with a figure of $37. million dollars. It is not an easy task. I wouldn ' t be surprised if some of the past councilmen still , today, after they have served their term, know exactly what the county finances are. It is difficult. You have probably seen the county financial budget. It is a very difficult, complex . . .from the real property to the grants from the state and the grants from the federal governments and all of these have to be considered in the finance and the distribution of these moneys. And also any councilmen who are elected with the good intent of doing good things for the people alone, is not enough. You have to know a little bit of politics. A lot of people consider politics as dirty but it is not dirty. It is part of our life. To acquire that political knowledge is very difficult in one or two years. Good politicians make good representatives. Of course, there are exceptions, too. But, in general, I think we should consider elected officials as honest and sincere and willing to serve the people. I many a time havefelt that maybe.: the five councilmen should run from their own district and maybe that the chairman of the council run at-large. The chairman be a full time and be paid almost similar to the mayor' s pay, or a little less. And he does all the county clerical work and you can abolish the county clerk and the deputy clerk. I think this will make more sense to have a councilsof that composition. Before I forget, I will appreciate it if you will consider that you will give a legal staff to the council . This was our big problem where one legal staff advised two governments. The people are not getting their fair share. They are not getting justice. By having the -corporation counsel 'serve the administration and serve the council is very difficult and I am sure all of you people remember how I tried hard to have a counsel for our county council. I wasn ' t successful and this is one area I hope that you members will consider so that we can have a better service. On the other hand, I have an alternative suggestion, tonight. You may laugh at it but I think this county does not need a strong mayor type of government. We probably should go back to the old board of supervisors. Five supervisors and a chairman. They ran the county just as well as it is today. Although in 1958 when I was first elected the budget was about $7 million. Today it is hitting $40 million. So there is a difference in size. But if you can elect people with enough caliber and knowledge in administration, I ' think it can be. And we wouldn ' t have the bickering between the adminstration and the legislative body. Today, you can see, Kauai , Maui , Oahu all having bickering between the administration and the legislative body. I don ' t think this is necessary. we spend a lot of money unnecessarily paying all these high wages. I think if we get the right people this can be run by five councilmen and a chairman. I don ' t think we need the mayor, assistant director or director helping the mayor with the -21- compensation almost similar to that. I think we are spending too much money in the administration. The council, as you probably know from the charter as it reads they meet twice a month and it is a part time job. So I think we need the chairman full time. You can eliminate the county clerk and the deputy clerk and have a proper staff. I think we can have a better administration. This I find that is the most fair and efficient and economical . I don ' t think we, as the County of Hawaii should follow the other counties. Just because they have a strong form of a government doesn ' t mean we have to. I think we can go with any form that will be beneficial to ourselves the way our economy exists, and so-'" forth. I think the board of supervisors in many, many years prior to the Charter Commission had done a good job. We didn ' t have any bickering. They decided all the issues and I think it deserves consideration of this group here. I also believe strongly that the water board should be under the..=-if you are going to have a mayor type or the board of supervisors--be under the administration directly. The reason is this , the Hawaii County is so backward in our development that we haven ' t spread our tax base and this is the reason why we are paying such high taxes. Other counties are just spreading wide and broadening their tax base- so you and I don ' t have to pay high taxes. You know that we are paying one of the highest taxes in the State of Hawaii. That is because our island is so big. Two and a-._half times as big as all the islands combined. The island of Oahu can beFput in the District of Puna and they have 700 , 000 people to prorate the cost of running the government. We have two and a half times as large an area as all the others combined and we have only 78,000 people prorating the cost to run the government. Yet our citizens, you and I , are demanding equal services as the citizens in Oahu. How can we? We just can ' t do it. Unless we have a miracle. I think it is high time that we either broaden our tax base, raise more revenues to give the services or do something. But, as you probably know, in this County of Hawaii , the government has stymied the development with all rules and regulations, where 'the other counties the adminis- tration goes out and meets the people and try to help. I just can ' t see. It is my belief, also, all the time that I was in the government representing you that this island with the 78,000 people today we can accomodate 150, 000 people so that 150, 000 can prorate to run this government. Then we can pay a lesser tax. And the water board, I would also like to agree with the previous speakers, the water board and public works should be run by a business manager. I strongly urge that and the reason is this , why should you use an engineer with his good knowledge of public works and good knowledge of water system to be an administrator? It just doesn ' t make sense. We ought to have a good manager and use the other as an engineer because that is what they have gone to school and become educated on that particular subject. But today all those high priced engineers are doing administrative work and I have always called this to the attention of my fellow councilmen but I have had no result. -22- I would like also to mention that all departments should be confirmed by the council. The mayor is not the only one that runs the county government. The councilmen play a very big part in the running of this county. If you have no jurisdiction over the particular department head, you are going to have a hard time getting cooperation. They don ' t have to listen to you. They only listen to the mayor. He is the one who can hire and fire. I ,think some area of authority should be given to the council. I really don ' t know how to put it, but I think some consideration should be given to give that authority to the council so that they can be more effective. Another area I want to speak on tonight is that the county has too many commissions. Everything is commissions. Advisory or otherwise and all these commissions are non-compen- sated members. However, the county has to pick up their travelling, their per diem and I think it is senseless. Why elect the people to the council , pay them a salary and then get all these people to advise how to run the county? Don ' t you think that the council and whoever is mayor, or the chairman, should run the county council and if they can ' t do a job kick them out the next election. I really feel today, the council and the mayor arezelected and how many, maybe three dozen commissions from the police to the recreation to the parks and water and all of the commissions. . .what are the elected officials doing? It really doesn ' t make sense to me. Another thing, too, I would like to bring to you. I have always found that the economic and development department is really a useless department. I think that area there should be combined with the planning commission. I really believe in that because you probably read in the paper, in the past, T got in hot water because I brought that up before the council . But I am still saying that I was right. You can also consider--and this:.may be very drastic -but you can amalgamate even the police and the fire department. More so out in the rural area. The rural area in order that the people where we have only two or three'l,hundred people are demanding a 24 hour service. How are you going to give a 24 hour service of the police department to all areas. Every -station at _least has to have seven officers. The fire department also needs four or five people or else it is not effective. I want to call to your attention , as I have mentioned many times, to the county building and the employees of the county. That this building here in the County of Hawaii is not a big welfare tank but that is what it is today. We really have too many employees in this county. There are ,many areas that are not needed. Of course, there are certain areas where the county is responsible for their having the job but I don ' t know whether that area can be considered, especially where our county when we are in the austerity program. As you probably know, we hardly have anything for public improvement. Hardly anything. A very small item. Recently they floated a $6 million dollar bond for capital improvements. Unless we get -23- a grant from the state, there is no, absolutely no, CIP program. Everything that has come in we are spending out for the administration. It just doesn ' t make sense. I think even the department of liquor can be considered under the finance committee and I know that I can be here talking to you about the whole charter. But I just happened to sit down at my table last night and decided that maybe I should come and express what I felt, to all of you from the inside and not from the outside. But from the inside and convey to you to help you make the decisions one way or the other. What you do is immaterial. It doesn ' t hurt my feelings. At least, I have come before you and expressed the way I felt how the county should be run. I hope that you will give some consideration and if you have any questions , I will be very happy to answer. MR. TRULSON: Mr. Yamada, regarding the five councilmen. You also stated that the council chairman should run at-large. You are including the chairman in the five councilmen? Five councilmen and the chairman. Each councilman would run__ frbm. the representative district and the chairman would run at-large? For that position? MR. ROBERT YAMADA: Yes, the representative district. The chairman would run at-large, yes. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Mr. Yamada, you just stated that while working for the county council you felt that if the council is made up of Democrats and Republicans that it functions much better than a body of nine Democrats. MR. ROBERT YAMADA: No, I didn ' t say it will. I said, it has been. The first four years we had three Republicans and we got along real well. I think the reason why was because we had different opinions. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Do you feel in any way that if this is the case that- it could be accomplished? Where you would not have nine Democrats in the council? MR. ROBERT YAMADA: No, I don ' t see any way. It is the people who elect. I said during my chairmanship, I had nine Democrats working together but we had differences , as you probably know. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Another thing you mentioned is that since we are all human beings, and even council people are human beings--you mentioned about this business about funding and money and CIP and etcetera. Now, isn ' t this the responsibility of the council , to sit down and talk about things like this? Who is going to get the funding and so on? MR. ROBERT YAMADA: What do you mean? I don ' t quite follow you. -24- CHAIRMAN SAKATA: You said that every councilman is a human being, right? So, he will fight for his district. Now, my question is that if all this funding, all the money, all the grants that come into the council--isn 't it the responsibility of the council to determine where the money is going to be funded? MR. ROBERT YAMADA: That ' s right. You have therecommendation from the administration. Once we had what we called pork barrel and the pork barrel , as I observed, went to each councilman ' s district. Let me put it that way, if that is what you want to know. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Doyou feel that in the council there is favoritism as to where the money is funded? MR. ROBERT YAMADA: That ' s right. They all favor their own district, as a rule. There may be some exceptions. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: That is what I am saying. Isn ' t this the responsibility of the council to sit down and rather than play favoritism to decide where the funding should be done? MR. ROBERT YAMADA: That ' s right, everything is the council ' s responsibility but what they do is _something else again. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Another thing that you talked about is that , and I quote from you that "the right people should be "iri _office. " From what I gather and the things that I have heard and have observed, I have noticed that the SYSTEM is okay. I don ' t care what kind of system we have, strong mayor-council, board of supervisors, as you spoke about, it is the system that is okay. So it is the people then, MR. ROBERT YAMADA: Well , in many ways , it is. Also:, thesystem, too. Like this system here where we have the strong mayor with the administration and legislative. Why a county like ours which is a corporation-.-we don ' t need an administration. Either have an administration or have the legislative body. One of the two. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: So you would like to have a manager-director type system then? MR. ROBERT YAMADA: It might be a good idea to have a managing director. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Then my question is where you have a manager-director type, if the people in there are not the right people, as you say, then it is not going to work , right? MR. ROBERT YAMADA: Probably not, but you can never always elect the right people. You don ' t know until you elect and they do their work . Then, that is when you know and it is probably too late, -25- CHAIRMAN SAKATA: If that will be the case and it is too late then who is going to suffer from all of this? MR. ROBERT YAMADA: The people will suffer. Anytime you elect the wrong people the people will suffer. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: My point is that if we have a system whether we have a strong manager type, we have a strong mayor-council type or we have a board of supervisor type, I think it will all work as long as we get people in there that are going to be responsible to the people and responsible to the government. I don 't think the question , here, is what type of government or what type of setup we are really going to pinpoint our aim at. I think we have to look from the standpoint of what is best for the county and how it is going to work. We have had many people come before us and say that this government , right now, is working. It is good, they say. Some of them say, no, it is not. We really have to look at it from all standpoints and we are very happy that you people bring these things up to us so we can look at it from the standpoint of what is wrong and what is right. When we start deliberations we can really deliberate and say, okay, these are the things that we have to consider. MR. ROBERT YAMADA: Mr. Chairman, what I pointed out to you is that our system today is too costly for the benefits we are getting. I don ' t think I made the statement that our system is wrong. I only suggested that we may consider to alternate. I don ' t want you to put words in my mouth, either. MR. OMONAKA: Mr. Yamada, after being in the county council for such a long time, do you have any feelings about spending limits? MR. ROBERT YAMADA: I think I do and I think that when I was on the council we had a limit of 15%. We were told that we had credit up to 75% but we all agreed that it was proper thatwe'should leave a reserve and we did go to 15% of our total revenue. I have been away from the government for two and a half years and I don ' t know if there are any changes. But I think that a limit--however, when you do put a limit on there are such things as emergencies or some federal grant that comes to our county saying that we want a matched amount from the county and if we are not in the position to 'float= a bond to match the federal grant we would lose it. So we had to keep a reserve. MR. OMONAKA: So with your experience then you are saying that we should not have a limit. MR. ROBERT YAMADA: No, I don ' t say that we should not have a limit. If we have a bunch of councilmen who are very agressive and just go, go, -go and use all our limits then there is nothing we can do. I think we should have certain limits. Sitting before you good people, I don ' t think I can say what is a limit. _ During my time, I thought it was 15% of the total value of our island, our face value. -26- MR. TRULSON: Mr. Yamada. You stated that there are too many commissions. Are you speaking of the mayor' s advisory commissions or like the police commission and the water commission? MR. ROBERT YAMADA: I think there are some commissions that are necessary. But there is a commission for this and a commission for that. I think these commissions are being used as a political football and I don 't think some of these commissions are necessary. Some of the people who are appointed don ' t even attend the meetings. They don ' t even have a quorum. And what do they discuss? The advisory committee just discusses among themselves. They are not executive committees but advisory committees . All the county members are paid either per diem or mileage at, I think , l5(t a mile. And this is all at a cost to the government. Don ' t you think that most of these elected officials should make their own decisions? That is what they are elected for. MR. SENSANO: Mr. Yamada. What is your feeling regarding this last statement on some departments? The department of water supply, for example, it says , shall come under the general supervision and control of the mayor. In several departments that is stated that the mayor has general supervision and control and yet some of these departments also, have`;a _commission. Like the police department, for example. The police department, for example, came before us and said that they would like to see this removed. What is your feeling as a former supervisor and councilman? MR. ROBERT YAMADA: I feel the police department is the most expensive department in the county. I think they are spending about $7 million dollars annually now. The police commission hardly has any revenue. It is a service department like the parks and recreation. $7 million doll,ars ;.is a lot of money. According to the committee, they have the right to appoint the police chief. I think this is wrong. They consider our type of government a strong mayor type. If we are going to leave it as a strong mayor type, I think the :mayor should have direct control over the police department and if he makes a mistake, he is going to be crucified. Now, if the commission makes the mistake, how are you going to go back to them? They are not elected by you. They were appointed by the mayor. I don° t think that is right. MR. SENSANO: So it is your feeling that it should be one either under the mayor or the commission? It shouldn ' t be both the mayor and the commission? MR. ROBERT YAMADA: No, I think it should be directly under the mayor. If it is going to be a mayor type. MR. ISHIDA: Mr. Yamada. On the matter of commissions, you indicated you feel some commissions were necessary. Is that correct? What commissions do you feel are necessary that are covered in the charter? -27- MR. ROBERT YAMADA: That is what I said. I said some commissions are necessary. As I said , earlier, I just decided last night that I would appear before you. I probably will write a letter that if it is possible some of the commissions should be eliminated. MR. ISHIDA: There are only a few commissions as far as the charter is concerned. As I understand it , you feel the police commission is unnecessary. Is that correct? MR. ROBERT YAMADA: I don ' t know, they may need one but what category, advisory or executive committee, I really am not in a position at the present time to make any statement. However, some authority should be given to the mayor who has the right to appoint a chief. MR. ISHIDA: As i understand it, the rationale of having created this police commission was an effort to separate the politics as far as appointing a police chief is concerned. Mainly because the police department is a public service department and using that rationale, that was the basis upon whichwthey created the police commission and why the commission was the one that would appoint the chief. Now, as I am trying to understand your feeling , this evening, it is you feel that even in spite of something like that, for a more efficient administration that the police should come directly under the umbrella of the mayor, whereby the police chief would be appointed by the mayor. And as police chief would be directly accountable to the mayor. In that event, it would appear to me that you feel the commission , under those circumstances, would be unnecessary, as far as the police department is concerned. MR. ROBERT YAMADA: No, I wouldn ' t say unnecessary. It could_be an advisory but not an executive committee like they are today. MR. ISHIDA: But they are, in fact, because they are the ones who govern policies. . . . MR. ROBERT YAMADA: When we talk about strong mayor type and running a corporation of $37 million dollars, the charter says you can do this .but you can' t do that. Then it is not the strong mayor type of - government. The police department, if somebody else is going to appoint him, I don ' t know how much politics he can play to get the right people in but it is very difficult at times. And, yet, he controls the public works , the corporation counsel , parks and recreation. He doesn ' t control the water board. He doesn 't control the police, directly, although he appoints the members of the commission. But I don ' t think the mayor can be in a position to say, look , I am going to appoint you, you do what I tell you to do. I don ' t think the mayor will do that. Everybody has their choice. I don' t think that should be right. The county is spending the most money for the police department and yet it is not directly under the mayor. Then we shouldn ' t call it the strong mayor type of government. 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'4abpnq au3 aAoadds pup a3STadoadde noA aauo •Aauow auo saTeTadoadde 3043. auo au3 sT ITounoo auo. asnsoaq ITaunoD auk. osT0 pus aoAew au3 oa. aTgs4un000V :VQVNVA J i2SO i °th,J •.zoApw egg o3 aTgs3un000p; AI3oaaTp speau 3uaw3aedap Tip aApLi pinous am pauaaauoo sT 3uawuaaAob A4unoa asinaT4.asd ono ss a2.1 se Taag noA 4e143 'opeweA •ah `3T pup3saapun I sV :vUIHSI 'EH this under one roof and make it easier for the people? It is just like pulling nails, you know, to get anything done. This is what I have complained about all the time when I was on the council. MR. ISHIDA: How would you resolve that? Put it strictly under the mayor? MR. ROBERT YAMADA: I think it should be in the same category as the public works today. MR. ISHIDA: Are you suggesting we consolidate departments? That we retain the same departments but. . . MR. ROBERT YAMADA: No, the water department is a big department. Or you can consolidate it with the planning commission also because they do all the planning and water development. The planning commission will not move unless the water department approves any development. I think somehow they should work and be under the mayor so he can coordinate. MR. ISHIDA: Under your proposal as far as the makeup of the council is concerned, you suggested that there';_ will be one councilman who would be the chairman and who runs at-large. Is that correct? MR. ROBERT YAMADA: This is what I feltthat_ might be most appropriate because you have to have some people responsible for the entire island and to coordinate each district. To work together. MR. ISHIDA: And that position would be given to the one who runs at-large? MR. ROBERT YAMADA: He would run as the chairman of the council. So the people know who is going to be chairman and they are going to elect the right people. As it is now, on the council , we have nine members. The nine members appoint- the chairman. Whether the chairman is qualified or not if he is popular and has the ability to corral enough votes , he will be the chairman. He might not be the best chairman. These are some of my findings. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Thank you, Mr. Yamada, for your input. RECESS: At 9: 05 the Chair called for a short recess. RECONVENE: At 9 : 20 p.m. the meeting reconvened. The Chair called upon Harvey T ajiri and Michael Mentnech to speak but bothspeakers were unable to remain. Susan Irvine was the next speaker. -30- MRS. IRVINE: Mr. Chairman and commissioners. My name is Susan Irvine and I am speaking for myself tonight. Prior to tonight I was reading you were bothered by lack of public input to your proceedings. I know not anymore. We have plenty of people here tonight. I felt that maybe it would be a good idea to have further public input after your commission comes up with possible subject areas to be addressed. It is difficult for the public to do their homework for input without knowing what the commission is proposing. Many people don ' t know what is presently in the charter. It hasn ' t been recently published in our local papers and I think if you genuinely want input you should do some background research. Make preliminary proposals and then ask for public input. My second area of concern , as it is often called politely, is apportionment. Other people call it gerrymandering. It is a subject that has been previously mentioned this evening. I have no specific proposal on the problem at this time. I do feel that I would personally feel cheated, in some sense, if I were from a district where I was represented on the county council by someone who did not receive endorsement from those living in my district. My third concern. We've all been through the Con Con election. Please avoid the absolutely mind-boggling ballot format with which we were faced last fall . Combining conflicting proposals into one yes-no vote without, in some cases, ever` publishing the entire content of the amendment was a disaster. True democracy, a government by the people, cannot survive that sort of confusion. Now for a moment I would like to speak for the League of Women Voters of Hawaii County. We ask that there be no backsliding on the issue of Sunshine in our county. Section 13-20 of the charter calls for open records and meetings. We are in total agreement with the concept. Please retain this section as it is . Thank you. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Thank you very much, Mrs. Irvine. Mr. Sam Wallis, Jr. , our next speaker is no longer in attendance. We do have Mr. Bruce McCall . Mr. McCall . MR. MCCALL: My name is -BruceMcCall. .I live at 1859 Waianuenue Avenue here in Hilo. Mr. Chairman, I did not plan to testify but as I told Mr. Yamada, perhaps a rebuttal of some of the things might be in order. I do have opinions on almost every part of the charter but perhaps I. should limit myself to commissions at this time. -31- I do believe that most of our committees and advisory commissions are unnecessary and really hold back the process of government. I also believe that the county is very similar to a business operation in that it does not formulate broad policies or conditions under which we all live. That is the legislatures job. It is more a management operation. Therefore, I strongly believe in the strong mayor system and I believe the mayor should be responsible for operations. Therefore, commissions that get in his way are bound to create inefficiencies. I do believe in say, the police commission. And I believe the way it is set up is pretty good in that we definitely need someone to oversee such a sensitive department. They should have all the powers for investigation , checking and asking for any information. Their powers , however, whether they should include the fire and the police chief, I 'm not too sure. But they certainly should include the power to publicize or challenge in court or wherever they want to challenge any improprieties the police department should happen to do if they think it is wrong. I believe most commissions should be something of that type. Certainly, I would see no reason for a water commission. That department is purely operational. As is the public works , parks and recreation. There is no need for commissions there. I don ' t believe the council--to get to the rebuttal side--I don ' t believe the council should have very much to say about the operations of the operating departments. In other words , those that actually go out and do a physical job, let ' s say. This, of course, leads me to a solution that I think would solve most of the problems. That is to go to the city manager type of government whereby the mayor is the chairman of the council and they meet once a week or twice a month or whatever is required. It would not be a, full time job. The city manager, then, would have absolute power over most of the department heads and would run it like a business with the council and the mayor being the board of directors which set all policy, would hire and fire the city manager at any moment, any time they wanted to. But I understand that that doesn ' t have much of a chance so I won ' t discuss that much longer. Anyhow, I want to back up the feelings of many people that the commissions should not be in a position to interfere =with the efficiency of government operation. MR. ISHIDA: Mr. McCall . What commissions are you making reference to? MR. MCCALL: I think we are talking about committees. I think I used the word committees and commissions . For instance, I see no reason for the water commission. I see no reason for the parks and recreation advisory committee , as I recall it, I 'm not even sure it is a commission. I don ' t believe that is even in the charter and so perhaps that is not -32- the function of this group. I do believe you need a civil service commission to oversee the management of the director of civil service. I 'm not too sure that they should appoint the director but certainly they should oversee it. I ' m a little unsure of myself, too, on the police chief. Whether the commission should appoint the police chief or not or whether he should be the mayor ' s appointee. But they certainly should have investigatory and overseeing powers and the ability to see anything that goes on in that police department, or practically anything. Planning commission, I think we need a planning commission with powers very similar to what they have now. I think the old charter people did a pretty'igood job on those and I think our charter is quite_.._ a bit better than most counties that I know anything about at all . Actually, I wouldn ' t mind if it were left alone. MR. ISHIDA: One of the basic concerns is the police commission and I am trying to resolve in my mind if we place the police chief directly under the mayor, really, what is the roll of the commission then going to be? MR. MCCALL: Right now, the police chief is directly under the mayor except in the matter of appointment in this charter. All operations are under the control of the mayor but this makes a rather ambiguous type of a responsibility. Where the fact that the commission has the power to fire a police chief, theoretically, they have no power to influence his operations. It doesn 't work that way because if they have the power to fire him, they certainly can suggest that he change his methods or do something and this carries quite a bit of weight if you have the power to get rid of him. MR. I_SHIDA: This is what I am trying to determine. If we take that power away from the commission, then what would they really determine? What would their role be? MR. MCCALL: We definitely need someone to look over the shoulder of the police chief and the operation of the police department other than a mayor, let ' s say, or the council . Of course, the council has that responsibility as well. I do believe in commissions or committees just for overseeing or monitoring functions, whatever you want to call it. I think you need that in a very sensitive operation like the police because I don ' t think I would care to have the power to arrest and charge rest solely with, _1.et ' s :say, _one man, which might be the mayor. I think someone should be watching to see what he is doing and how he is doing it. No more do I trust the police commission to have that power alone. MR. ISHIDA: Under the monitoring type of commission , what would the commission ' s role be aas far as the mayor is concerned as opposed to the police chief. I can see where the chief would_ be directly accountable to the mayor and where the commission can' be overseeing all of the operations of the police department, yet the police chief is doing what the mayor is telling him to do. How would the mayor be under scrutiny as far as the commission is concerned? -33- MR. MCCALL: Well , I don ' t think the mayor would come under the purview of the commission ' s overseeing responsibilities. There should be another word for that because oversee sometimes means actually directing and I don ' t think we are talking about directing the operations of the police department in any way. Nor should they have any right, of course, to direct the mayor' s operations. I don ' t even believe they should be able to investigate the mayor, if you want to say that. But just the fact that they investigate the police department if something was being done that was wrong in that department and they brought it to the attention of the newspapers, the public, and I !m sure they would even have the power to take it to court if they felt something was going wrong or being done wrong. .I think that would be adequate. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Thank you, Mr. McCall. MR. ROBERT YAMADA: Has_ this group ever considered anything other than the two party systemin the county govern- ment? I mean other than Republican or Democrat. I find that on the county level make it Republican or Democrat. . .once elected we should all work together. Why should we have Republicans or Democrats? This is a big business corporation. isri ' t ' there some way to lessen the campaign costs for the election so that more people can run. A lot of people who are well qualified cannot run because of the high costs of running in the general election. Isn ' t there some way, some recommen- dation that could be made that maybe we should be unicameral or whatever you call it and do away with the Republican or Democrat on the county level. Because we actually dont make laws that affect the whole State of Hawaii. This is a business corporation and that is the way we should run it. If we cut the expenses for candidates running, we would have more candidates running. MR. ODA: Are you saying, Mr. Yamada, that persons running for elective office should not have to run on party affiliations?, Is that what you are saying? MR. ROBERT YAMADA: Yes, no party affiliations. MR. ODA: The election laws right now are general state laws that control running for elective office. With regard to that kind of thing, I can ' t say for one-hundred percent sure, but I do believe that regarding whether members be of one party or another party, I don ' t believe the county has any jurisdiction to make any charter provisions on those matters at the present time. MR. ROBERT YAMADA: We can work for it if we believe in it. . .we can change. . .because I can safely say that once elected we all got together and worked. We didn ' t care whether it was a Republican here, 'or a Democrat there. We all worked° tbg.ether. For the last eight years that was the way it was. I-"don' t know what it is now but that is how we operated. I thought from some of the expenses that it might be an idea. It was just a suggestion for you to consider. -34- CHAIRMAN SAKATA: Thank you very much, Mr. Yamada. This concludes the public hearing, for this evening. We will go into our commission business before we move for adjournment. APPROVAL The Chair called for approval of minutes dated OF MINUTES: April 17, 1979. Motion was made by Mrs. Iwamoto to approve the minutes as sub- mitted. Seconded by Mr. Yanaga and unanimously carried. UNFINISHED MR. SENSANO: I would like to,movethat we thank BUSINESS: the people for attending the meeting tonight and for letting us know what their feelings are on these matters. CHAIRMAN SAKATA: The Chair recognizes Mr. Sensano' s request and we would like to thank the people who represented the various organizations for testifying and giving public input this evening. We thank you for coming and taking the time out to give us your thoughts. Thank you very much. ANNOUNCEMENTS: Next meeting date - Tuesday, May 8, 1979, 7: 00 p.m. Honokaa High School Cafetorium, Honokaa. ADJOURNMENT: There being no further business , the meeting was adjourned at 9 :40 p.m. Joan Carnett RECORDING SECRETARY -35-