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HERKES: Was there a second to that? I'd like to say that I had a lot of input. A lot of people called me from Commissions that had worked under engineers who said help. You need a CPA, you need a Human Resource people, you need something else besides engineers. So 1 think it's real important to understand that while it sounds good to have engineers as head of technical bodies, they are not the best people to administer a hundred people in some personnel things — may not be. RAY: Other testimony? Mr. Yoshiyama. YOSHIYAMA: Yes, I would speak against the motion. I don't think we're shutting the door on engineers, or registered engineers. I would like to see us open the doors to other qualified people. I think that, as Marni said, we are heading in that direction of professional management, and that's all. RAY: Other testimony? I'd just say I'II vote to delete this but I do think it's a good idea. I think it was entirely misunderstood, and the input I got from people, a • number of whom, and in fact, one who had served as Chief Engineer, thought this was a terrific idea. But in any case, I'II vote to delete it because it has been, I think, so entirely taken the wrong way, and it seems to go contrary towards trying to beef up professional qualification's overall. Okay, so all in favor of deleting, raise your right hand. HANDS RAISED: Commissioners Alonzo, Bess, Higashi, Irvine, Kurozawa, Ray, Santangelo. RAY: Opposed? HANDS RAISED: Commissioners Herkes, Yoshiyama. RAY: So two votes opposed. So that's three. We're on a roll. SANTANGELO: Mr. Chair. I would have preferred to second this but there was a pause. Don't do that. Number 12, Impeachment. Would move to delete that. Again, for the same reason. I think it's been terribly misunderstood, but I have to say that I have been convinced by the testimony brought forward that where I started from probably wasn't where it is. It really hasn't been misused per se. It has some pretty good safeguards in it, and again, 1 would move to delete that. RAY: • Do we have a second? BESS: Second. RAY: Okay. Discussion. HIGASHI: What would be the main reason for deletion? 20