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Mr. Goodenow: Well I think that's a very valid concern and in fact I think you <br />know that's why we have the informal hearing. You know in a lot <br />of administrative hearing say that the department of human <br />services or whatever when you have a contested case hearing...It is <br />okay we're gonna have the hearing...we'll issue the subpoenas and <br />our rules provide for this right...you apply for a subpoena. Some <br />of the language I wanted to recommend changing a little from the <br />Maui rule...adding something in but you'll say...okay I want these <br />documents...I'm gonna file a subpoena and you know review them <br />in advance...it's subpoena duces tecum and the hearing officer or <br />in this case...the board would authorize the subpoenas. But you're <br />right that's very legalistic right? So I think the theory behind this <br />informal hearing really is to help people with that. And I guess it's <br />incumbent on us at this point unless we want to add something to <br />say okay this is what you're saying...what do you mean? Right <br />and okay what exactly happened and then we ask the department <br />well what...how do you respond? Oh do you have the document <br />for that...can we see these documents? That's why I think we <br />have this informal process right to do that. Now if it doesn't <br />work...cause the informal process we could say based on what <br />we've heard. It's not like we've heard all of the evidence. It's just <br />based on our informal hearing. We think there is a probable cause <br />to believe a violation took place and this is what action we want to <br />see right...correct it. At that point...if the person doesn't do what <br />we ask them to do...or they don't cooperate...let's say they <br />came...now I'm not showing you those documents. What if the <br />department says that's not under federal regulations...we could <br />never show you those documents. Well at that point...that's when <br />you go to the formal hearing. Cause the formal hearing addresses <br />all of those concerns but it's very legalistic and hard for an <br />individual quite frankly you're right...they would need an attorney <br />I think for a formal contested hearing. I don't know how to get <br />around that but that's why I think they have that informal and we <br />take on the role as to making sure a pro se person like that is <br />treated fairly and documents are provided...cause a person might <br />not even know to ask for the documents right? They might think <br />they couldn't get them. You know they don't know. <br />Ms. Sumner -Mack I'd like to put in a couple things if you don't mind. I mean you're <br />dealing largely with policy here but I'm concerned if we <br />replace...by the way I appreciate your putting it out in this format <br />cause he's got our regulation and Honolulu and Maui and Kauai <br />right together so you can compare easily so that's great...must <br />have worked hard on that. Anyway but one thing that we have in <br />our in e. we have...that the person whose appearance is requested <br />8 <br />